Latest / Story Works Round Table | Conversations About Craft / SWRT 356 | Ask Alida: Character Arcs and Agency

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SWRT 356 | Ask Alida: Character Arcs and Agency · Story Works Round Table | Conversations About Craft

0:01
SPEAKER_00: This is the Story Works Round Table.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Conversations about craft for writers and readers curious about writers.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Story Works Round Table.
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SPEAKER_00: There's always room for another writer.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Now let's get to today's episode.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: It's an Ask Alida where I answer your questions and Kathryn's about story craft.
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SPEAKER_00: If you're a dedicated writer who is ready to grow,
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3:01
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3:13
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and now...
3:39
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy this conversation at the Story Works Round Table.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: All right,
3:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to throw you my opening question,
3:46
SPEAKER_02: which is always a little bit off topic of what we're going to talk about in
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SPEAKER_02: the middle.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: So if anybody has any questions, comments, throw them in, and we'll get to those as well.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: So my opening question is,
3:56
SPEAKER_02: do you have a favorite free writing prompt that you use personally, and what is it?
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, gosh.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: We've been talking a lot about journaling and kind of using our journals in
4:12
SPEAKER_02: the last couple of episodes.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: So it made me think about like,
4:14
SPEAKER_02: do you have something that you'd like to use as a prompt to just get yourself going?
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, I was going to say what I do personally is I go back to my journal
4:25
SPEAKER_01: because I've got my notes in there and those get my wheels spinning, you know.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of make my own prompts as I go that way.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: So like right now I've got a character who's got anorexia nervosa, but it's the 1920s.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: So I mean,
4:49
SPEAKER_01: the diagnosis existed,
4:51
SPEAKER_01: but it wasn't treated the way it is today and it wasn't talked about
4:54
SPEAKER_01: the way it is today and such very different.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: I knew I had a scene with her coming up where something happens that triggers her.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: I think it's called intermittent.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a circumstantial anorexia.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not continuous and chronic the way we typically think of it is.
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SPEAKER_01: So she's triggered and then she goes into those behaviors again.
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SPEAKER_01: So I went to my journal and I'm just asking myself,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: How is she going to respond to this stress that just happened?
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SPEAKER_01: What is that going to look like?
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And then that gives me the ideas that go into the scene, right?
5:40
SPEAKER_01: So that becomes my own writing prompt, like I know my research projects.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: So that obsessive-compulsive personality,
5:48
SPEAKER_01: not full-on disorder, is a common trait with people with anorexia nervosa.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, okay,
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SPEAKER_01: when they're in the dining hall,
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SPEAKER_01: she's not going to eat, but she's going to be fidgeting with her utensils.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Positioning things around her plate and stuff like that.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: When I'm teaching,
6:07
SPEAKER_01: I often develop writing prompts,
6:10
SPEAKER_01: excuse me,
6:11
SPEAKER_01: on the fly because I'm in conversation with my students and
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SPEAKER_01: so I know what issue we're trying to deal with
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SPEAKER_01: and I also know what their stories are about,
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SPEAKER_01: what kind of characters they're dealing with and what their character arcs are.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: So instead of having like A ready-go-to prompt.
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SPEAKER_01: I like to create prompts based on either my circumstances or my students' circumstances.
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SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know, that might be kind of a disappointing answer.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: I didn't just give you a prompt to go run with.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: No, I love that.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: I love that idea of catering your prompts to your situation and your circumstances.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: Good.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: I often think of rewriting prompts as kind of like the easy way in the door, right?
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Like, I can write about this for 15 minutes,
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SPEAKER_02: even if I don't have anything else time-wise or,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: the capacity to sit down and try and draft a chapter or revise something,
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SPEAKER_02: but I can sit and do this for 15 minutes, so.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I think prompts are really good for that.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I were into the middle of a project, if I'd taken...
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SPEAKER_01: Time off of writing or life had gotten in the way,
7:27
SPEAKER_01: then turning to a book of prompts or the internet or,
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SPEAKER_01: you know, I like Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a great way to kind of jumpstart creativity.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: And I do think that
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SPEAKER_01: taking prompts that your initial reaction to is negative is a great way.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: To kind of put yourself in a corner.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: when I was in school,
8:01
SPEAKER_01: I tried to whatever my professor told me to,
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SPEAKER_01: whatever that assignment was, and I didn't always like it.
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SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I sat down thinking, this sucks.
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SPEAKER_01: Why did that professor tell me to do this?
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SPEAKER_01: And it was good.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: It's good for us to do that.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: I had some great stories come out of those.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: So I think Kristen has a suggestion there.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're giving me names I don't want to mess up here, Kristen.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: It's like the third one you've done where I feel bad.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: Zalika Joud?
8:35
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, but yes, J-O-U-A-D for that.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Those on video give some great ones.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's awesome.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's always good to have warm-up activity.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: You get me.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: I just let Kathryn take that too.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: I know, right?
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Did you see her just like duck out?
8:58
SPEAKER_02: She was like, yep, Kristen has a comment.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: Just because we can't pronounce their names doesn't mean they're not worth checking out.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: So, okay.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: Topic.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: Are you ready to talk about a specific piece of craft?
9:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: All right.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm here.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: I want to talk a little bit about kind of the backbone of craft today
9:31
SPEAKER_02: where we're going to talk about crafting a character arc.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: So softball question to begin with.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: What is the character arc and why is it important in your story?
9:45
SPEAKER_02: And also really quick.
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SPEAKER_02: Kristen says she's married to John Batiste and writes about her medical struggles.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's a little bit of clarification
9:54
SPEAKER_01: on the previous
9:55
SPEAKER_02: author.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kristen.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: That makes more sense because I saw that in Red Magical Struggles.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Struggles with magic.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Could be.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: You never know.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Also, I think we have a new join.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, welcome and throw comments and questions in the chat at any time.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what is a character arc?
10:32
SPEAKER_01: It's basically your character's journey from the beginning of the story to the end of the story.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: That journey involves change, so some sort of character evolution.
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SPEAKER_01: And it matters because our protagonist is the heart of our story.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: The protagonist is the reader's vehicle through which we experience the plot
10:59
SPEAKER_01: and everything else that's happening in the story world.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And so As a reader, we are living vicariously through
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SPEAKER_02: the protagonist taking this journey.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And whatever that character's change is, we get to also experience that change.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: So it can be Very deep and moving.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't have to be, but that's kind of a, right?
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And our protagonist goes through all of the events of the plot.
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SPEAKER_01: Lots of struggle.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Lots of challenge, right?
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Lots of conflict, crisis, agency, choices to make.
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SPEAKER_01: Repercussions for making all of these choices.
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SPEAKER_01: And so if your character doesn't have an arc accompanying your plot arc,
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SPEAKER_01: if your character is the same at the end of the journey after going through all
12:00
SPEAKER_01: of those situations, then that's kind of a head scratcher, right?
12:07
SPEAKER_01: And we're likely to not believe it,
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SPEAKER_01: enjoy the story less,
12:12
SPEAKER_01: feel that there's less of a Payoff, less of a reward as a reader.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: There are at least a couple,
12:21
SPEAKER_01: maybe a few different layers there to what I just said about what a character arc is
12:25
SPEAKER_01: and why it matters.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And of course, you can have an arcless protagonist.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Let's just leave that aside for now.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Welcomed people who are just joining.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Kathryn, welcome them.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: So I saw Michael and Virgil come in.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, guys.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: And Nelson, That is great.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: So if you have any questions about what you're writing, just feel free to drop it in.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: It does not have to apply to the topic that I have brought.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Alita will answer any and all questions.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: I just bring something so that we make sure we're talking craft for you guys.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: Kristen.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: And if you're just joined, I have a head cold, so Apollo, thanks for the snuffling.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: For Alita.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: She's recovering, but she's here for you guys.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: This is not my normal stuff.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I want to ask then,
13:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to kind of skip around because I had these questions in a different order,
13:27
SPEAKER_02: but since Kristen's talking about story arc being a problem,
13:30
SPEAKER_02: what kind of like common problems with this character arc and weaving it into
13:34
SPEAKER_02: the story arc do you find as an editor and a writing coach?
13:39
SPEAKER_02: So one...
13:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, two things for sure.
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SPEAKER_01: One is agency, the other one is nicey-nice.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: That's my own label there, nicey-nice.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: So let's do nicey-nice first.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: A lot of writers either like their protagonists too much,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: They don't want to sufficiently escalate the stakes and tension for their character.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean this in an external, artificial way.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who said that's where it came from,
14:17
SPEAKER_01: but you've all heard the saying,
14:19
SPEAKER_01: put them in a tree and then throw rocks at them and then set the tree on fire,
14:23
SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean that.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're telling a story and you've got a series of events.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: You've got a setting with different props, different opportunities to make things happen.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: You've got an antagonist.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: You've got choices that are building one on the other toward that climax.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: And so it's right there on the page.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like, this should be happening next.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Not because someone said set a tree on fire,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: but because This is what you've already put on the page and been building to.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: And then the writers miss that opportunity because that thing that
15:02
SPEAKER_01: is so apparent
15:06
SPEAKER_01: to me working with them,
15:07
SPEAKER_01: seeing all of the scaffolding on the page,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: seeing all of these elements building, it's kind of like writers put on.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Blinders, because it would be too harsh or too mean to do that to the character.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Or the other reason this happens is because the writer's not thinking clearly enough
15:30
SPEAKER_01: in story terms.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: The writer is thinking in real life terms.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: And in real life, most people are reasonable.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: And things deescalate before they go too far.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: But in story, We want things to be big.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: We want things to be dramatic,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: even exaggerated sometimes, without being melodramatic or hyperbolic, right?
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And so for those two reasons, I see a lot of people being too nice.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: They're just being nice and nice to their characters.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And then it doesn't play out, and they're missing opportunities within their story.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: To really take it where it wants to go.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I brought up is agency.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: So
16:21
SPEAKER_01: when you've got stuff happening and you're really focused on the plot
16:28
SPEAKER_01: and you maybe aren't focusing enough on your character arc, writers can lose track.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Of their protagonist's agency.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's sort of like this happens and this happens and this happens, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And you need to stop the this and this and this and say, okay, this happened.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: How is my protagonist going to respond to that thing that happened?
16:54
SPEAKER_01: And what are all the possibilities for that response?
16:57
SPEAKER_01: What if my protagonist makes this choice?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: What if my protagonist makes that choice?
17:01
SPEAKER_01: You've got more than one choice and it's not always the immediate one.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: That's best for your story and then follow that.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Through several steps, okay, action, reaction.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, if this is my protagonist's reaction choice,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: which is agency, that's going to be a new cause furthering the events of the story.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: So what's the reaction there?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And then keep developing your story that way so that while things do happen
17:35
SPEAKER_01: the protagonist,
17:36
SPEAKER_01: you've got ample opportunities For choice,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: consequence,
17:42
SPEAKER_01: circumstances throughout the plot,
17:45
SPEAKER_01: which is what ultimately shapes your character's arc and your character's evolution.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm really stuffy.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: It's the most I've talked all week.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: I, like Kristen said, nicey-nice.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: You nailed it on the head.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: And yes,
18:05
SPEAKER_02: I had the same problem for a long time,
18:07
SPEAKER_02: and I'm working my way out of that, but I still have to check myself on that one.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: All right.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: Nelson had a question,
18:14
SPEAKER_02: and I don't know if you saw his first comment,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: but he says he's an aspiring Portuguese historic novel writer.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: And his question is, he says he's struggling with getting historical facts from costumes.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: What's the best strategy to do fact-checking?
18:29
SPEAKER_01: The age is 1900s.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: For costuming.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: I think you could
18:38
SPEAKER_02: probably broaden that, too, into how do you do historical fact-checking.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's just
18:47
SPEAKER_00: good old-fashioned research, and I would get off the internet.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: There are some really good, reliable sources on the internet, including some...
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Costume as in fashion, not as in, like, Dressing up as other people.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Costume historians who do period techniques for sewing for garment construction
19:14
SPEAKER_01: and such,
19:15
SPEAKER_01: and they will do things like wear the period clothing and then explain
19:22
SPEAKER_01: to you how all the garments are layered and how the natural fibers function
19:26
SPEAKER_01: when you live without air conditioning and central heat and things like that.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: So there are some very good resources online,
19:34
SPEAKER_01: but you want a trustworthy authority, so academic books.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: I've got a book called Dressed for the Photographer.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: It's like a big coffee table type book and a historian in Wisconsin who specialized in clothing.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: Put together all of these archival photographs,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: and they're just everyday people, not wealthy, not elite, not royalty, right?
20:11
SPEAKER_01: Who, you know,
20:12
SPEAKER_01: you'd go get your photograph taken for a marriage or because you're going off
20:17
SPEAKER_01: to fight in the Civil War or because, you know...
20:24
SPEAKER_01: And so, then she describes, like,
20:27
SPEAKER_01: we know this is the date, we can see the clothing here, we know this is what...
20:32
SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know,
20:33
SPEAKER_01: that might be going off into the beats for you a bit,
20:35
SPEAKER_01: but I write historical fiction,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: and I have a lot of fun researching their clothing,
20:43
SPEAKER_01: you know, and when you get a sense from text, from books...
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Especially with academic publishers where you can trust that
20:53
SPEAKER_01: the research is verified and accurate.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: Then you have a better eye for the things you see online and you can kind
21:01
SPEAKER_01: of gauge better whether or not somebody like blogging
21:05
SPEAKER_01: about period fashion is getting it right or is just an amateur sharing their fun,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: right?
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Which is great, but not necessarily what you want if you're concerned with period details.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I don't know.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: And I hope that was helpful.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: based on your comment,
21:26
SPEAKER_02: if you are living in the area where you are basing your book,
21:31
SPEAKER_02: just, you know, set in different times.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: But I think,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: if you can visit a museum in your area and see the clothing on display,
21:38
SPEAKER_02: that also can help a lot.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: And then Alita,
21:41
SPEAKER_02: you've talked before about reading novels that are from that time period too,
21:44
SPEAKER_02: because then they would address the fashion in a way that was accessible as well,
21:49
SPEAKER_02: right?
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I do read a lot of novels written in the period that I'm writing about.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Now, the downside there is just like we do
22:01
SPEAKER_01: with our contemporary stories is they can not worry too much about fashion.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: You take a lot of things for granted that your reader is already on the same page,
22:11
SPEAKER_01: but you might pick up key details that you wouldn't pick up in fashion.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Any other kind of source which then lent you authority.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Another thing I did, if you're able to, is I went to, oh, it's a story from your city.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would definitely check out any historical buildings, museums.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: I went to a living history farm.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: And so you go around and there are different places.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Settings and different people reenacting things.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: So you've got the blacksmith,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: you've got the milking barn, you've got the kitchen, you've got whatever.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: And I talked to the reenactors.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, so what are you wearing under your dress?
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And I was taking notes.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: What order did you put that on?
23:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: you're wearing this big hoop skirt,
23:06
SPEAKER_01: and you're cooking over a fire, and isn't your skirt going to get in the fire?
23:10
SPEAKER_01: How did women deal with that?
23:11
SPEAKER_01: She was like, well,
23:13
SPEAKER_01: wool is naturally flame retardant,
23:15
SPEAKER_01: and even in the summer,
23:16
SPEAKER_01: the skirts were wool, and so that was, you know, that was just a part of it.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: So, you pick up some cool things from people who are living in those garments
23:30
SPEAKER_01: and using those tools and those kinds of If you have that sort of resource,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I would definitely go talk to people and check it out with your notebook.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: They're like, what are you doing?
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm a writer.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: And if you're living in that area and you can find a museum that speaks
23:55
SPEAKER_02: to those things,
23:56
SPEAKER_02: you can often find curators or people who have lived this research
24:00
SPEAKER_02: and really just want to talk about it and will You'll be able to download a lot
24:05
SPEAKER_02: of information that way, which would be awesome.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
24:11
SPEAKER_02: It just occurred to me, maybe
24:13
SPEAKER_01: he's writing about 1900s.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking 19th century.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: So if I was off the mark, I'm sorry.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: I think either way it works.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: How do you go about identifying a character's arc and crafting it
24:28
SPEAKER_02: into something meaningful to the story?
24:31
SPEAKER_02: Are you a character first, plot second, plot first, interwoven?
24:35
SPEAKER_02: How are you creating that character arc to make sure it weaves together in the story?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's something you...
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Typically work out together.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, some stories have their genesis in plot.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: They're inspired by ideas about events.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: What if this happened?
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's what gets our wheels turning.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Other stories are inspired by character.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: The character comes to us first, and it's, who is this person?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: I have to understand this person and where she comes from, right?
25:13
SPEAKER_01: But whichever character And of course,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: you could be like,
25:19
SPEAKER_01: theme, this is the question, meaningful life question I want to explore.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So whatever your genesis, what you get into kind of thinking about the shape of your story.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: You know that you've got a who, your protagonist at the heart of it.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And this protagonist is just going on a journey through a series of what, right?
25:47
SPEAKER_01: What is going to happen?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: How is all of this going to play out?
25:52
SPEAKER_01: And then we have to get into our character's psychology, the motivation, right?
25:59
SPEAKER_01: The driving desires.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: And we have to know who our character is at the beginning of the story.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And then that begs the question,
26:10
SPEAKER_01: How is this person going to be different at the end of this journey?
26:16
SPEAKER_01: So we've got a sense of who, we've got a sense of what, and it's all about change.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Story is change.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: So who are we going to be at the end?
26:26
SPEAKER_01: Did that answer the question, or have I not gotten there yet?
26:29
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I was laughing.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: She said, the character comes to me and just sits on the couch.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she had a clarifying question.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Do you sketch out the arc before you start writing?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it's part of the pre-writing development process.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: So in that sense, yes,
27:01
SPEAKER_01: because I'm thinking about where I'm starting my story,
27:06
SPEAKER_01: where I'm heading toward where I'm ending the story,
27:10
SPEAKER_01: a few key turning points in the middle, right?
27:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's going to give me enough of a sense of what's going to happen to think
27:21
SPEAKER_01: about how this person is most likely going to change and evolve.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And then, excuse me, there's, you know, the whole storyboarding process.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: But, um, Sketch is a great word.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: So yes, I sketch it out.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Does that mean there's a lot of filling in and it can evolve as I get going?
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I think having a sketch of it helps you.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Because I really want you to determine if your story is plot-driven,
27:55
SPEAKER_01: character-driven, or theme-driven very early in your development process.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Because once you do that, you can help yourself stay.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: True to your story's core as you write it while you're drafting,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: which saves you a lot of dead ends,
28:12
SPEAKER_01: which saves you a lot of frustration and revision.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: That sitting on the couch thing kind of reminds me.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot
28:27
SPEAKER_02: of my character arc work comes easier once I have gotten my character off the couch.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: In terms of giving them motivation or figuring out what that motivation is
28:38
SPEAKER_02: and what's driving them to enter the story in the first place.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know that there was a question there,
28:46
SPEAKER_02: but just that sketching out the character arc thing,
28:50
SPEAKER_02: I think there's multiple pieces that I have to have in play before I can even get
28:55
SPEAKER_02: to how they're changing or growing.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: So my closing question again has nothing to do with the topic.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: What is your favorite thing about being a writing coach or a writing educator?
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Working with writers.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Talking about craft is fun.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: I love getting to know people, people and their stories.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: when I get to be the person where a writer just hops on a call
29:28
SPEAKER_01: and we can start talking.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's very amusing the way we talk about our stories and these characters.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: They're totally real, right?
29:39
SPEAKER_01: But they're on another planet and there's all this weird stuff and people are dying
29:45
SPEAKER_01: and things are, you know, but it's really fun.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: And then helping writers go from wherever they're at when they start the call
29:55
SPEAKER_01: or restart the process to
29:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited and I can't wait to go write some more because now I've got ideas
30:04
SPEAKER_01: and I'm all fired up.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: So that's fun.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: I like that.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: It looks like Nelson might have a question coming, so I'm just gonna...
30:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there we go.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: All right.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: About updating characters,
30:20
SPEAKER_02: bio, and places so you don't have incorrect information, what
30:25
SPEAKER_01: do you use?
30:26
SPEAKER_02: Are you talking about like...
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Keeping track of the things that you've created for their,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: their information about them and where they're at,
30:36
SPEAKER_02: like continuity and maintaining that continuity.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: That's where we're going to go first,
30:40
SPEAKER_02: and if that's incorrect,
30:42
SPEAKER_01: you can answer that, and we'll answer that.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just use Scrivener,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: so all of my projects are in Scrivener, and then my notes, a notecard feature.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't use their little character sketch template, and then, of course, my journals.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: It would be great if I worked.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Kathryn.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: No, yeah.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: Keeping track of things It is a study in figuring out your own version of organization.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: I also use Scrivener because I really like the software,
31:22
SPEAKER_02: but if you're unfamiliar with it or you don't like it, that's just one option.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: I think some people create,
31:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
31:28
SPEAKER_02: things they'll call like story Bibles where they've created things and keep them in
31:32
SPEAKER_02: with tabs and just so they have access to it.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you definitely need a system of organization and an ability to fact check yourself.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: Did I say they were wearing a blue dress or a red dress three chapters ago?
31:46
SPEAKER_02: And we're still, you know, it's sort of a thing.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: You do need a way to check that.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for joining us even sick, Alita.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: It's the most fun I've had all week.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: If you're serious about your craft and ready to take your writing to the next level,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: check out Word Essentials.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: That's my home for developmental editing,
32:13
SPEAKER_00: writer's coaching,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: and workshops tailored for serious writers of fiction and nonfiction.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: Whether you are drafting your first book or polishing your fifth,
32:24
SPEAKER_00: I bring decades of experience to the table as a published,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: award-winning author, teacher, and editor.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: I work one-on-one with writers to dig deep into story, structure, and craft.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking for expert guidance that's both insightful and actionable,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: head to wordessential.com and let's talk
32:49
SPEAKER_00: about how I can help you reach your writing goals.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, as per usual, I have an opening question.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: So we'll dive into something kind of fun and light and
33:03
SPEAKER_01: get to know Alita-y.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Plugging in my charger.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: So it's like,
33:09
SPEAKER_02: oh, look.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: My phone has decided to.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: All right.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: In your opinion,
33:17
SPEAKER_02: when you're reading a book,
33:18
SPEAKER_02: what takes it from a good book to a great book moves it up the shelf for you?
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Prose, quality of prose.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, there are a lot of books that I don't finish.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: I can't be bothered to read them because they aren't engaging me enough.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: The stories aren't interesting enough.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: The characters aren't alive enough.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of Been there, done that feeling, right?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: So that would be mediocre.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: A good book is a book I'm going to enjoy reading.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: It's a fun ride.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: It's pleasurable.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: It's not a waste of time.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily super memorable, you know?
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So one that is really a great book is something I'm going to start reading it,
34:12
SPEAKER_01: and then I'm going to be like,
34:13
SPEAKER_01: oh, I'm going to pay attention to this
34:16
SPEAKER_00: because this is moving.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: This is beautiful.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: This is firing on a lot of different levels with the story,
34:28
SPEAKER_01: the characters and the plot,
34:30
SPEAKER_01: but also the narrative quality, the emotional resonance.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: It's making me think.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's a great book.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: It's got to do a lot.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: The details matter at that point.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: It gets me to slow down.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Slow down, dig in, and then recommend, right?
34:55
SPEAKER_01: Because those are the books that you ask, you say, oh, you should read this.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: I want to know how it makes you feel.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And they're the books I like to teach as well.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot to really expound upon.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to dig into and explore and learn from.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: Yep, definitely.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: All right.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, I brought a craft topic,
35:24
SPEAKER_02: but as usual,
35:26
SPEAKER_02: Kristen or anyone else watching, if you guys have questions, drop them in.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: This is kind of a follow-up to last month where we were talking about crafting
35:35
SPEAKER_02: a character arc because we got a little bit into some problems with character arcs
35:40
SPEAKER_02: and one of them that Alita said was agency and we didn't really get to dig
35:44
SPEAKER_02: into agency.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: So I would love to do that because that's something that I feel like comes up again
35:49
SPEAKER_02: and again as I'm reading and these are the books that I don't finish is the ones
35:52
SPEAKER_02: where I
35:54
SPEAKER_01: This character is not doing enough.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: So I thought that would be a fun thing to talk about.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: What is agency, character agency, and why is it important?
36:04
SPEAKER_02: And is it only for your protagonist and your antagonist or is it for other characters as well?
36:09
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: What is agency?
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Agency is basically your
36:20
SPEAKER_01: protagonist making choices, taking action that then affects the plot.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: So if your protagonist is passive,
36:32
SPEAKER_01: is being thrown about by the current and not actually rowing the boat,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: then they don't have agency.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: They lack agency.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: And you see that a lot when things are happening to and around the character and
36:49
SPEAKER_01: the character isn't responding to the events of the story in a way that then shapes
36:55
SPEAKER_01: the trajectory of your plot, right?
37:00
SPEAKER_01: And this can be subtle.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: So we aren't waiting for the major plot points that really turn things on their head
37:08
SPEAKER_01: to see agency demonstrated.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: We should see it throughout at all levels of stakes and tension with our protagonists.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: So...
37:20
SPEAKER_01: That's basically what agency is.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: You are the center of your own story.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Don't be passive.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And then the next piece was, is it just for the protagonist and antagonist?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: Or was there something in the middle?
37:36
SPEAKER_02: No, that was good.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: But before you get there, I want to talk about reactivity.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like there's a push there.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: Where you say, oh no, my character's reacting too much.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: But it's not that they can't react,
37:48
SPEAKER_02: it's the way that they react to the situation that they're in, correct?
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what moves our plot,
37:55
SPEAKER_01: what advances story, are these pairs of action-reaction, or cause and effect.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: So if something happens to our character, our character must react to that.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: You have to have a response.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: You have to do something as a result of this thing that just happened to you, right?
38:17
SPEAKER_01: So whether you want to call it respond or react, kind of tomato, tomato.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: So now the character does something.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: They have that reaction.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: You take the prefix off the RE.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: They're doing something.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: They're acting.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: There's an action.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: What is going to happen in response to that character's action?
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Something needs to shift.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And if your character is just kind of reacting in a bubble, like passively...
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Feeling, being hurt, but then not doing something that the story can react to.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: They're just sort of waiting for the next thing to come down the river, right?
39:04
SPEAKER_01: Then they're being passive.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: So we want to see this progression of,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Cause and effect instead of something's happening,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: something's happening, something's happening.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: And if you can't create those links,
39:20
SPEAKER_01: those causal links in your story
39:25
SPEAKER_01: that your character is at the center of,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: then you're going to have a passive protagonist, right?
39:35
SPEAKER_02: And Kristen said it can be related to nicey-nice, I bet.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, the comments are not moving for me, but okay.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I have to go
39:47
SPEAKER_02: push a button.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Aha,
39:51
SPEAKER_01: there we go.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it can totally be related to niceness.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Yep, if you're...
39:57
SPEAKER_01: If you're being too nice to your character,
40:00
SPEAKER_01: if you're thinking about your character being too moderated in responses
40:05
SPEAKER_01: to like we would be in the real world where we have a lot of social constraints
40:11
SPEAKER_01: and we're always thinking ahead and,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: how would this play out and stuff,
40:16
SPEAKER_01: then you're sort of putting a straitjacket on your protagonist and we don't want
40:21
SPEAKER_01: that, right?
40:23
SPEAKER_01: We need the things that happen to be Properly dramatic for your story,
40:28
SPEAKER_01: and we need the character's reactions to be properly dramatic for the story
40:33
SPEAKER_01: and not too moderated.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely a possible connection.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: And I think, too,
40:43
SPEAKER_02: if you're being too nice to your protagonist,
40:46
SPEAKER_02: maybe you allow other characters to take the consequences or to react
40:50
SPEAKER_02: or move forward in order to avoid your character having to deal
40:54
SPEAKER_02: with those consequences as well.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then the other characters end up being the ones who shape the story instead
41:02
SPEAKER_01: of your protagonist, and that's what we want to avoid.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes, so in terms of is agency just for the protagonist and antagonist, um...
41:15
SPEAKER_01: In a sense, yes, I mean,
41:17
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't want to say that as a blanket statement and have people only think
41:21
SPEAKER_01: about agency in terms of the protagonist.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: But our protagonist is our vehicle through the story.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: It's the character we have emotional resonance with, the one we're invested in.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: So, yes,
41:35
SPEAKER_01: we want other characters to be active,
41:39
SPEAKER_01: and we want their choices and actions to advance the story.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: But if they're a supporting character, then that's fine as long as it is contributing to it.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: The main thrust in our protagonist's journey, right?
41:59
SPEAKER_01: So it's got to be an interplay, but always centered on the protagonist.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: So Kristen said, one of my favorite novels is Signature of All Things.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: I never thought about it this way, but agency is part of that, I'm sure.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: I think you know.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: I've read Signature of All Things.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: Neither have I.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: But I think you know when the character's not acting properly,
42:27
SPEAKER_02: it does affect the way that you view the story.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's harder to get into and to follow that protagonist.
42:33
SPEAKER_02: Is that fair to say?
42:36
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Because why would I want to take a journey with this person who's not engaging in
42:49
SPEAKER_01: the story actively?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Now that you've recommended it, Kristen,
42:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to have to put it on my TDR.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Writing it down.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Continue, Alia.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've definitely heard of that.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: What was I saying?
43:06
SPEAKER_01: So it can be tricky when you've got a character that Who is,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: let's say, a child or something, right?
43:17
SPEAKER_01: That's a protagonist who, by nature of this character's being, circumstances, right?
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Can't have full agency.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: So then we've got to find ways to make certain
43:31
SPEAKER_01: that our character is expressing choices that have consequences that drive
43:38
SPEAKER_01: the story forward.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Even while being in a set of circumstances that limit power and limit freedom.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Right?
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: That's why you talk about young adult novels and things where the parents need to be gone.
43:56
SPEAKER_02: Get the first step.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: Get the parents out of the room.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is the first rule of children's literature is get rid of the parents.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Because parents control children's lives and they regulate them.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And you can't have an adventure where children are up to all kinds of shenanigans if
44:19
SPEAKER_01: the parents are tucking them in bed and All of those other things.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: And like a good adult example is something like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: You've got characters in an institution that's highly regulated.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: There are people who crack down or prisons or there are all sorts
44:40
SPEAKER_01: of situations we can think of where someone's agency is limited.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: And yet those stories are powerful because we invest in the character itself.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Who is making choices within those confines, which then shapes their fate.
44:59
SPEAKER_02: Right?
45:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I'm just thinking of the final, the end of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: I'll reference the movie because that's what's vivid in my mind right now.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, Jack Nicholson is punished with a lobotomy.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: He won't go along.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: He won't be passive.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: He won't just play by the rules.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: So they lobotomize him.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: So now he is truly without any agency, right?
45:33
SPEAKER_01: And so what happens?
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Why is that ending still satisfying?
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Because Chief rips out the water fountain,
45:42
SPEAKER_01: throws it through the window,
45:45
SPEAKER_01: breaking the bars, shattering bricks and stuff, and goes out.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: And runs off.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: So it's like all of that energy and power
45:57
SPEAKER_01: that Jack Nicholson's character was carrying,
46:01
SPEAKER_01: that was driving the story,
46:02
SPEAKER_01: that was engaging all of the other characters around him in this environment,
46:08
SPEAKER_01: got transferred when Steve, the super stoic
46:16
SPEAKER_01: Nonverbal, like guy who just sits there, it kind of transfers to him.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: Right?
46:22
SPEAKER_01: That was his breaking point.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: And he does something.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's this move toward freedom.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: And Kristen says, powerful, poignant novel.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: I'd like to move on to the correlation between character motivation
46:43
SPEAKER_02: and character agency, or maybe character agency and character arc.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if my hair is graping against your earbuds or something.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: I'll try to get my hair back.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: We'll see if that helps.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: Repeat your question.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: I was doing hair maintenance.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: No, you're good.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: Kind of that interweaving between or the correlation between character motivation,
47:10
SPEAKER_02: character arc, and agency and how they support one another.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: So motivation, there are levels of motivation, right?
47:29
SPEAKER_01: And on the surface level, it's kind of what is in the moment.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, um...
47:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm hungry, I want dinner.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: That's very surface, right?
47:44
SPEAKER_01: But then you drop down and you've got kind of a psychological need that
47:50
SPEAKER_01: the protagonist is aware of,
47:52
SPEAKER_01: that the reader's probably aware of,
47:54
SPEAKER_01: that we see coming out in meaningful ways on this page.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: But then you can drop down even deeper than that.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: And you've got a deep psychological motive that our protagonist might not even be aware of.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: But the writer has built it in because it's shaping the protagonist's internal drive.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you've got a character who is being...
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Reactionary in the sense of something happened, now I do.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, X happened, now I do.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Why?
48:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's good, right?
48:33
SPEAKER_01: That's that surface level of motivation.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: But then make sure that you're dropping down behind that.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Because we don't just have one way to react in any circumstance.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: There's always going to be the easy...
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Obvious way to react, right?
48:50
SPEAKER_01: But if you think about it,
48:52
SPEAKER_01: you could brainstorm three to ten ways your character could react
48:57
SPEAKER_01: in any given circumstance.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: And you want to pick the one that's not necessarily obvious,
49:04
SPEAKER_01: that's going to be fresh and dramatically compelling for the reader,
49:10
SPEAKER_01: but especially is driven by your character's motivation on those deeper levels.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: And the arc, the character arc, is that way we represent our protagonist's change.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: So who they are at the beginning of the journey,
49:30
SPEAKER_01: how they are different at the end of the journey.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: And to create a meaningful arc that holds together,
49:39
SPEAKER_01: that has resonance with your readers,
49:42
SPEAKER_01: you're going to want to depend on the motivation factor.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: As you shape your character's choices and actions throughout your story,
49:53
SPEAKER_01: which is where that motivation piece comes in.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: How'd I do?
50:02
SPEAKER_02: It's just, it was good.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: It's one of those things as a writer,
50:06
SPEAKER_02: I feel like every time I try to like pick a part, Oh, I'm struggling with this.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like there's eight other things interwoven into that.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it's good to take a step back and look at that big picture and say,
50:17
SPEAKER_02: oh, all these things are so intertwined.
50:21
SPEAKER_02: Let's take a look at them.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yes.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that what you just said about taking a step back and looking at
50:31
SPEAKER_01: the tapestry of novel writing instead of just that one thread is really important
50:37
SPEAKER_01: because if you've got scenes that aren't working for some reason and it's not
50:46
SPEAKER_01: the action, the action is sound, you know, go deeper.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else you want to talk about with character agency before I kind
51:22
SPEAKER_02: of move us into a closing question?
51:24
SPEAKER_02: Kristen, if you have anything else you want to talk about, you can throw it in chat.
51:29
SPEAKER_02: Anything else before I move on?
51:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: All right.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
51:36
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to go back to kind of mirroring that opening question now
51:41
SPEAKER_02: that we've kind of talked a little bit about some of those things that make
51:45
SPEAKER_02: a good book great.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: Is there a book,
51:49
SPEAKER_02: and it doesn't have to be the book,
51:51
SPEAKER_02: but a book that you wish all writers would read and why?
51:55
SPEAKER_02: It could be fiction,
51:58
SPEAKER_02: it could be nonfiction,
51:59
SPEAKER_02: but I kind of feel like there's some opportunity for like,
52:02
SPEAKER_02: I just wish every writer would read this and understand why it's so good.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm not good at coming up with books on the fly.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: I end up relying on the same, like, three books over and over and over.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'll just do that.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: Which probably means
52:25
SPEAKER_02: that those are the ones that you wish all writers would read,
52:29
SPEAKER_02: so we could talk about why they're good or why they're important.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think the Poisonwood Bible is...
52:40
SPEAKER_01: A great read for point of view.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: It is multiple first-person point of view characters,
52:50
SPEAKER_01: and you can really learn about distinguishing voice.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: It's first person, so the narrative voice is the character's voice, and they're sisters.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: So same exact family upbringing,
53:05
SPEAKER_01: same exact socioeconomic background,
53:08
SPEAKER_01: same exact set of life experiences within society.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: The family unit, and they're still kids, so they're still within that unit, right?
53:18
SPEAKER_01: And yet, each of them is perfectly distinct.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: So even if someone doesn't like the book and doesn't read the whole thing,
53:30
SPEAKER_01: read at least a third of it and make a study
53:33
SPEAKER_01: of those first-person point-of-view characters and characters.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: How she distinguishes them.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: I think it's also really valuable because they're living one set of experiences, right?
53:49
SPEAKER_01: And so we're told this family story and we see the timeline of events.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: And you might get like this thing that happened and then the next thing
54:01
SPEAKER_01: that happened from a different sister.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: And then there are a few things that happen that are so...
54:09
SPEAKER_01: So important that you get that same experience from multiple sisters back to back.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: And so the way she chooses which character gets what event or what part of an event
54:24
SPEAKER_01: and why is another good example of a good study.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: Of what we were just talking about with agency and motivation,
54:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:34
SPEAKER_01: why would this point of view character be more appropriate for this event in
54:40
SPEAKER_01: the story than that point of view character?
54:44
SPEAKER_01: Why not just make one sister the protagonist and tell the whole story from one point of view?
54:50
SPEAKER_01: So you can,
54:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:52
SPEAKER_01: reverse engineer,
54:54
SPEAKER_01: look at what's on the page and think about why those choices were made
54:58
SPEAKER_01: and assess them.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: So I think that is really worth reading.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a lot.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: Point of view is a lot.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: All right.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: Kristen said, what about a novel like Gilead, which I love?
55:18
SPEAKER_02: What is the agency there in that quiet life?
55:21
SPEAKER_02: So I haven't read that one, but.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I have that one.
55:26
SPEAKER_01: I might have lent it out to somebody before I finished reading it.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: I know I started it and didn't finish it, not because it wasn't good.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: It just wasn't like floating my boat that particular... At that particular time...
55:42
SPEAKER_01: So what I remember of that book is that...
55:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, the father is older.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: He's dying soon, right?
56:00
SPEAKER_01: He's writing letters to his son because he knows he's going
56:03
SPEAKER_01: to not be around long enough to pass the wisdom of his experiences on to his son.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm gone.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: Yep, Marilyn Robinson, pastor in Iowa.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: So I think we're investing...
56:21
SPEAKER_01: In his life experiences for benefiting from his wisdom.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's definitely not a book for everybody.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: It's quiet in terms of plot.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: It's very character-focused.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: It's very introspective.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: It's very human-centric,
56:44
SPEAKER_01: thinking about mortality, thinking about children, thinking about what you pass on.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, his son is estranged.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:53
SPEAKER_02: See, I haven't read it.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Kristen, you should tell us, what about that book, since you've read it?
57:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think agency doesn't have to be large things.
57:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, she's talking about quiet,
57:08
SPEAKER_02: and I think there's a lot of very character-centric and quieter books
57:12
SPEAKER_02: that do agency really well.
57:15
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I was saying at the beginning is that no matter what's happening
57:21
SPEAKER_01: in your plot, you want agency to be expressed.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: And so showing his son grace in a quiet, gentle way, that is his agency.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: If they're estranged, why not let it go?
57:38
SPEAKER_01: Let his son live his life.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: Why not hold a grudge?
57:40
SPEAKER_01: Why not?
57:41
SPEAKER_01: So that is choice.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: But it's a quiet, gentle choice.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: So then you've got to write the story with grace.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: That as your baseline and still make it engaging for your readers so
58:00
SPEAKER_01: that they invest and they want to keep reading.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think those can be the more powerful,
58:09
SPEAKER_01: beautiful, memorable stories because they are quiet, because they are gentle.
58:17
SPEAKER_01: It's easy, right?
58:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like the blockbuster movies.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: They cost a lot of money to make.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: But they're also kind of, Easy because they're big.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: They're explosions.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: They're heroes.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: They're crashes.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: We know what to expect.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: And it's predictable.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: It's more.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: It's more of the same.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: So with literature,
58:41
SPEAKER_01: when you step away from the plot-oriented story and get into these character
58:48
SPEAKER_01: and theme-driven stories, in a way we've got more work to do, right?
58:54
SPEAKER_01: Because the onus is on us.
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