Latest / Asked & Answered - your community podcast for all things legal / How SRPMIC’s Legal System Has Grown

Transcript

How SRPMIC’s Legal System Has Grown · Asked & Answered - your community podcast for all things legal

• 0:00
  Kierstin: So this is where our stories diverge because... So it's so crazy because I kinda have some similar story, and we've never
• 0:08
  Alane: shared this. We've never talked about this at all.
• 0:10
  Kierstin: Yeah. So the thing is here, what I've learned today is if you want advice about this, you send them to Alane. You don't send them to me.
• 0:23
  Alane: Hey, y'all. Welcome back to asked and answered. This is Alane. And as always, I'm here with my cohost, Kierstin. So today, we're gonna take a little walk down memory lane and talk to you about kind of how practice, how legal practice in Salt River has changed since Kierstin and I started working here.
• 0:44
  I'm coming up on nineteen years. End of October, it'll be nineteen years that I've worked at Salt River. Kierstin is right there with me.
• 0:52
  Kierstin: Yep. I'm one year behind you, so eighteen years. And I guess journeying it back, I I started at the old courthouse. Yeah. I...
• 1:04
  My office was in the basement.
• 1:06
  Alane: You know, funny story. I'm not even sure that I was aware that there was a legal services office. Oh my goodness. Back when back when I started working here nineteen years ago, I certainly wasn't aware that you were in the same courthouse that I was in. But where was your office?
• 1:20
  Kierstin: So ours was in the basement.
• 1:22
  Alane: Okay. So you guys were down there with, like, probation?
• 1:24
  Kierstin: Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I think actually, you know, to maybe your credit is that I think you guys had moved out before I got there.
• 1:33
  So my understanding is that prosecution was upstairs, but your office had moved. But we were still in the basement. That was during the time that they were getting the Chaparral or Two Waters. Right? Two Waters was about to open up.
• 1:51
  Alane: Two Waters had not opened when I started working here. When I started working here, the government administration was in the 8800 Building at Chaparral. Yeah. That building right on the corner of Pima and Chaparral.
• 2:03
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 2:04
  Alane: And so you guys went to... What happened when you moved out of the courthouse? So when I first started, we were on the 2nd Floor of the courthouse, and we were the only ones up there. It was just us. And then there were, I think...
• 2:18
  No, it was just us. We were the only ones there. Because all the court was on the 1st Floor, and then probation, defense, and you guys were all in the basement.
• 2:28
  Kierstin: Well, now she knows this.
• 2:30
  Alane: Well, I knew that probation and defense were down there. I didn't know that legal services was down there. Oh. Now I do know. So that was...
• 2:39
  So I started in October 2007, and we moved to Chaparral, I wanna say, in January or February 2008. So we were not in the 2nd Floor for very long after I started working here.
• 2:53
  Kierstin: Oh, so maybe I... My facts are incorrect. Maybe you were still there in the courthouse upstairs, and I didn't even know that. I thought you would have moved out before me.
• 3:01
  Alane: So when did you start?
• 3:02
  Kierstin: So October 2008.
• 3:06
  Alane: So we were all... We were gone. So we... I started in October 2007. We moved to Chaparral in January or February 2008.
• 3:14
  Kierstin: Okay. Okay.
• 3:14
  Alane: Okay. So by the time you started working there, the judges and the court staff, I think, had taken over our old space. Okay. And all we had left up there was like a little satellite office that we would use sometimes.
• 3:25
  Kierstin: Yes. We had a satellite office too, but we got the satellite office when we moved to Chaparral. But we didn't move to Chaparral quite at the same time you did. We actually had one other stop before we went to Chaparral.
• 3:38
  Alane: Oh, where did you go in between?
• 3:39
  Kierstin: Yeah. So Social Services Building now is where we were at, but it was it was not
• 3:45
  Alane: I think DAO hopped there too.
• 3:47
  Kierstin: Yes. Yes.
• 3:48
  Alane: I think they were there too after... So between the old courthouse and their offices at Chaparral Yes. I think they were also there with you.
• 3:56
  Kierstin: I agree. But they were in a different section.
• 3:58
  We were
• 3:58
  just kind of like... It was like kind of a corner sort of piece. It wasn't really a big section. You know, at the time, I think I had eight people on staff. So We
• 4:08
  Alane: We were much smaller too.
• 4:09
  Kierstin: Yeah. So I didn't... We didn't need that much space, but we were there. And then once Two Waters or everyone at the Chaparral office moved to Two waters, then we moved over to Chaparral.
• 4:23
  Alane: And you and DAO both were in that 8800 Building at Chaparral.
• 4:27
  Kierstin: Yes.
• 4:28
  Alane: But we were in the Northern... The North Building at 8840 close to the Marriott. Yep. Yeah. We used to walk over all of our filings.
• 4:34
  We we will we will walk over to that building two times a day. Here's our morning filings. Here's our afternoon filings.
• 4:39
  Kierstin: Oh my gosh. This... So this is definitely before we go paperless, which I think is part of the conversation. Yeah. Okay.
• 4:47
  So then we're we're both at Chaparral, and then at some some point, So we get the Justice Center.
• 4:54
  Alane: Yeah. So our offices were all kind of involved in the planning of it, and it took years. Right? Like, remember the specs being pasted on the board at the old... On the wall entering into Yeah.
• 5:03
  The Remember they had that huge rendering with all the things that... All people's ideas and everything that they put in there?
• 5:10
  Kierstin: And issues or concerns or what they want to see.
• 5:13
  Alane: Like the wish list.
• 5:14
  Kierstin: yeah
• 5:14
  Alane: the courthouse wish list. And it was on the wall at the old courthouse for years while they were designing and building our new beautiful courthouse. And I guess to point out there what you just now said is that we would have to be going back and forth from Chaparral to the old courthouse. Yeah. In fact, the other day, someone in my office was like, I don't even know how long...
• 5:36
  Like, we were trying to do something. We were trying to gauge how long it would take us. Someone had a hearing at the court, and then we also had a meeting at the police department, which now is at Chaparral. Mhmm. And they were like, oh, how long will it take me to drive that?
• 5:50
  And I was like, eight minutes. And they were like, how do you know that? And I was like, I drove it for many years. It's eight minutes. Yeah.
• 5:58
  Kierstin: That is so true. It would be like, you have to leave. You have to get out of this office or you're not going to make it in court.
• 6:03
  Alane: It takes eight minutes. Yeah.
• 6:06
  Kierstin: Yeah. So once we... The building got... Do you remember when the building got built?
• 6:10
  Alane: I think this year is our tenth year of moving in. I think this is our tenth year.
• 6:15
  Kierstin: Which is kind of weird in some ways. And I think part of that that I lost track in time was
• 6:21
  Alane: COVID?
• 6:21
  Kierstin: COVID. Yeah. Because we weren't in the physical space for
• 6:25
  Alane: And the court moved in before we all did. So I think it's ten years of the court being open. We might be a little bit less for our offices. Maybe we're at nine or something.
• 6:33
  Kierstin: Yeah. Because was it a whole year that they moved in?
• 6:36
  Alane: I don't remember.
• 6:37
  Kierstin: Yeah. So, yeah, we moved into the new spaces and have been there. But I think I just now mentioned COVID, right? We talked about COVID, which progressed us into the paperless sort of system that we do right now, right?
• 6:55
  Alane: I think we have been sort of percolating on...
• 6:58
  Kierstin: I actually know what that word means.
• 7:00
  Alane: We had been percolating on our plans to use, like, online filing and things like that, but COVID really pushed it. Like, we had to suddenly figure it out right now, right now, because one day, the offices were open, and the next day, the offices were closed. Yep. And business, as you know, did not stop. Timeline...
• 7:19
  Timelines didn't stop moving. We all still had statutes of limitations that we had to comply with. So we had to figure it out.
• 7:25
  Kierstin: Yeah. So Alane said two things. One, I think the statute of limitations for the legal knowledge, usually that means the deadline that you have to file a lawsuit based on the law that dictates that type of case. So for example, like for me in my arena, a personal injury case has to be filed within two years of the personal injury accident that sort of jumped it all off. And I don't know in your particular
• 7:55
  Alane: So in the criminal world, it... It's a lot less black and white. It kind of depends on what is the crime because our class A cases, our most serious cases that are felony level, have a longer statute of limitations. And the statute of limitations is also extended if the victim is a child. Mhmm.
• 8:14
  But for the most part, we have anywhere from one year to ten years plus. But it starts moving the day the crime occurs unless certain Factors. Unless certain factors are present. So that's a whole episode on its own, which I won't make you all listen to today. But it's a little more nuanced in criminal world.
• 8:36
  Kierstin: Yeah. Okay. Going back into our... The other point that I was gonna say is that I agree. We were kind of already being a paperless office, meaning we don't print things off, we send it by email, we don't run over discovery, we send it electronically.
• 8:56
  Alane: Do you guys maintain a paper file? We don't.
• 8:58
  Kierstin: We don't have any paper file. Yeah.
• 9:00
  Alane: We don't either.
• 9:00
  Kierstin: But it did push us during COVID because now we had to file everything online, which was definitely the one thing that we weren't doing as an office.
• 9:11
  Alane: No one was doing it. The court didn't have the capacity for it.
• 9:14
  Kierstin: Right. And then the court had to push through that, right, too? I mean, what did do in the beginning? I think we filed via email or something.
• 9:21
  Alane: I think in the very beginning, we were somehow affixing... I mean, I say affixing an electronic signature. What we're doing is typing our names. And then, yeah, maybe we were emailing it to the court clerks. Mhmm.
• 9:32
  But we didn't have to do that for very long. It wasn't very long. They they got us a a solution in pretty... Like, within a week or so, we had a solution.
• 9:39
  Kierstin: And that was the IT filing system or IT created a filing system where we filed through that filing system. Yeah. Right. And we still use that filing system
• 9:48
  Alane: The Justice Information Center. Yes, we do. So, yeah, I think that was one of the biggest changes. But we almost... We kind of hopped over, Kierstin, one of the most, I guess, one of the biggest changes for your office, which is when I first started working here, when you first started working here, it was not statutorily mandated that guardians ad litem be appointed in dependency cases.
• 10:12
  And then suddenly the law was changed that that is mandated, and it was decided that your office would house that program. So you sort of doubled in size almost overnight from just having the civil side of your practice to having to hire a bunch of JLs and then actually function in that world? What was that like?
• 10:31
  Kierstin: Yeah. When we first started, I would essentially say I had one division within the office. Now I have two divisions. And the one division, as you mentioned, was basically the civil sort of cases that we do. And that second division being guardian ad litem division.
• 10:49
  Alane: Maybe we skipped over. Maybe we should talk about what a guardian ad litem does.
• 10:52
  Kierstin: Okay. So a guardian ad litem makes recommendations in a dependency, family law, or an incapacitated adult case. And they don't represent an individual. They represent an individual's interest. So they may make best interest recommendations after they have investigated and looked into the facts based on the case.
• 11:17
  And so they provide those recommendations to and the court considers that information and determines the issues in front of them based on those recommendations. So, yeah. So going back to the guardian ad litems, that was not created. And so I was asked to create that division, which at the same time is when defense advocate created the parent advocate division as well. But...
• 11:45
  And I bring that up because as eventually... Or essentially what happened there is we got a grant. And that's how we doubled in size is we got money from the federal government to hire guardian net items. And then also I believe defense got money out of that grant for the parent advocate program or whatever. So yes, we did double in size overnight and taking on all those cases.
• 12:10
  I think you guys went through some major law changes too.
• 12:15
  Alane: Yeah. So we've always had our two divisions, our civil division and our criminal division. But when I first started, the Tribal Law and Order Act did not exist back in 2007 when I started working here. It wasn't passed by the federal government until 2010. And Salt River made a decision to enact tribal law...
• 12:37
  Or to enact certain legislative changes in order to implement the Tribal Law and Order Act in order to give greater sentencing authority to the tribal court to increase sentencing authority from one year up to three years and a few other changes as well. But to do that, you know, at the time, the tribe did not have rules of evidence of its own and didn't have rules of criminal procedure. Which we had to Which we had to do. Right. We had to go through all have them.
• 13:03
  That was... It's mandated by by the Tribal Law and Order Act that if you're going to implement, you have to have rules of criminal procedure that are operating and rules of evidence, record, and you have to, you know, meet all these requirements. And so the first thing we had to do was stop just relying on the federal rules and start, you know, drafting community specific rules. So as Kierstin alluded to, we all met as a huge body for over a year
• 13:30
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 13:30
  Alane: To draft these rules of evidence, these rules of criminal procedure.
• 13:34
  Kierstin: Just in order to enact?
• 13:36
  Alane: Just in order to enact the Tribal Law and Order Act. Yeah. And that happened in 2012. So you can see that it it took, took you know, considerable amount of time.
• 13:44
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 13:45
  Alane: But because of that, we also had to almost completely rewrite the whole of chapter six because we had to Chapter
• 13:52
  Kierstin: Chapter six is the criminal code?
• 13:54
  Alane: Chapter six is the criminal code where all the the the criminal statutes are housed. Not all. There's some in chapter 10, some in chapter 12, some in chapter 16, but the bulk of it
• 14:03
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 14:03
  Alane: Is in chapter chapter six. But we had to decide, you know, what are the felonies gonna be?
• 14:08
  And what are... How are we going to make it clear that they are felonies? And so we had to completely rewrite the code to give everything a class, a class of offense. And so for instance, you know, things like disorderly conduct might be a class b, which is a misdemeanor, or might be a class e, which is the lowest level. But then, you know, things like homicide, of course, or class a, those are our felonies.
• 14:32
  Sexual assault, some types of domestic violence, some types of child abuse. And so we had to go through and really decide what what will be class As, what will be class Bs, what will
• 14:40
  Kierstin: be class Cs. And that mattered because of the sentencing.
• 14:43
  Alane: It mattered because of the sentencing because we had to decide... You know, you have to get people notice of what type of sentence they might get if they violate a law. And so you have to have it very very clearly laid out in the code. Here's what your possible sentence could be. Mhmm.
• 14:57
  And before, everything was the same because it was up to a year. Right. But once TLOA passed and then once it was enacted here, we had to provide that notice. And so the changes were drafted and presented to counsel and passed. And so that was a huge change because suddenly we went from being really limited in what our sentencing authority could be to being able to sentence up to nine years if we sentenced consecutively given that certain conditions were met.
• 15:23
  And so that was a huge change because, you know, there are definitely cases where victims were not feeling like they had been afforded justice because Of the year. Because the crime was very severe and we were limited, and maybe the federal government decided not to prosecute it. So we were left with just what we could do. So I think that was really meaningful. Equally meaningful was a few years later, the Violence Against Women Act passed.
• 15:48
  We've discussed that a little bit in passing in some of our MMIP discussions. But
• 15:53
  Kierstin: And I think that's on a previous episode as well.
• 15:55
  Yeah.
• 15:56
  Alane: But, you know, the ability to prosecute non Indian offenders given certain conditions is really impactful for Indian country as a whole. I mean, not since Oliphant have tribes been able to do that.
• 16:07
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 16:07
  Alane: Well, I think we discussed Oliphant on a last...
• 16:09
  On a on a prior prior episode as well. But but, yeah, I think it was so out of the realm of possibility when I started working here in 2007 that it was not even thought of. We all hoped. We all thought we should be able to prosecute non Indian offenders, but it wasn't really on any of our Radars. Radar that this was ever gonna happen.
• 16:28
  Yeah. And so to not only have that federal law passed, but then to have Salt River choose to implement as well was very impactful for our office.
• 16:38
  Kierstin: You know, so you talked about some of the laws and we talked about the Guardian ad litem ordinance that definitely changed my office size or whatever. But some of the other laws that were impactful in my office was having code as it relates to custody and paternity and name change, guardianship. And I would say part of the biggest push to create some statute on that is we had a case that was out in California. And it was a case that I will not forget about because we ultimately prevail in that case. But what happened is there was a family...
• 17:21
  It was a family law case. Mom went to Salt River, got a court order. Dad went to California, got a court order. And so we had competing orders. And ultimately, the court found that...
• 17:34
  And also one fact that I would add there is that mom got her order first. So it was a first in time. So we felt like we should be... That our court order
• 17:46
  Alane: Should be Trump. Right?
• 17:46
  Kierstin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what ended up happening is the California court found that we didn't have subject matter jurisdiction because our code didn't cover those areas that I just named custody. So because we didn't have subject matter jurisdiction, then their court had jurisdiction over the case.
• 18:09
  Alane: That's a hard loss.
• 18:10
  Kierstin: That was a hard loss. It was a very hard loss. And so that motivated myself to make sure that some of those ordinances were written because I want for members to be able to use community court and have those subject matter areas covered for those cases.
• 18:32
  Alane: I think that speaks to one of the privileges of practicing here in Salt River, especially as a director, is the amount of trust that is placed in us to bring to counsel issues just exactly like the one that you mentioned. Look. This is a situation that we're dealing with that is having a very negative effect on the community members, and we can fix it. We just need to draft new law. Can we get approval to do that?
• 18:57
  Yeah. And we have always been embraced by council to do that. Yes. Let's not have community members facing difficulties that are fixable. And I don't know that there is another jurisdiction that exists that is able to be as legislatively active as we are as practitioners.
• 19:16
  Well, fluid. Right? And then also in the sense of turning it around in a shorter period of time. Sometimes laws, other places legislatively can take years before it even
• 19:29
  Years and years and years and years
• 19:29
  Kierstin: sees the light in the
• 19:33
  we can make changes pretty quickly, especially if they're needed. Right? Pretty quick changes. But it's just not going to take years to
• 19:43
  address an issue, basically.
• 19:46
  Alane: Notice a problem. I also think it's beneficial because we can keep our laws current and we can keep them modern. Yeah. So we're not always stuck practicing with laws that are antiquated, that don't take things like technology into account.
• 19:59
  We can modernize and keep up with how things change, how quickly things change.
• 20:04
  Kierstin: So we talked about our... How we moved around. We talked about all the different laws that we have been impacted during our time here. Is there any other... I mean, I know we also talked about going paperless a little briefly, but is there any other changes or anything else?
• 20:23
  Alane: I think I just would reflect for a minute on how fascinating it's been to watch the legal system evolve. Grow. Evolve over
• 20:33
  Kierstin: this talk about the changes of now you have to take a bar exam.
• 20:37
  Alane: Yeah. So when I first started practicing here, the way that I got to practice was I got hired and I got to go to I got to go to court. Like, that was it. There was no admissions process, especially if you were a government attorney. If you wanted to be a private advocate, I think you did have to, like
• 20:52
  Kierstin: But it was just fill out an application.
• 20:53
  Alane: Out an application, but that was it.
• 20:55
  Kierstin: Pay 25 dollars.
• 20:56
  Alane: $25 or $50 or something like that. But it wasn't... There wasn't really a process to it.
• 21:01
  I think the process got a little bit more... Like, slightly more... There was slightly more of a process, I guess, maybe halfway through the time that I've been here where you did... There was like some component of a character in fitness, but it very abbreviated. Oh, like
• 21:14
  Kierstin: a background check, I think. Yeah.
• 21:15
  Alane: Like a background check. But, you know, with the passage of the new rules of professional responsibility and the new rules of admission, yeah, we have to take a bar exam. There's a formal character and fitness process. There's an admissions committee.
• 21:29
  Kierstin: Mhmm.
• 21:29
  Alane: You tell me, Kierstin, whether you're surprised by this, but I never realized how many... Like, the volume of new practitioners. I thought that the admissions committee would maybe be handling one or two requests a year, but instead we're handling one or two or three or four a month.
• 21:45
  Kierstin: Well, I think also some of that is because we're having new staffing.
• 21:50
  Alane: True.
• 21:51
  Kierstin: Because there's growth within the offices or whatever. And then I think just also the conflict office too.
• 21:58
  Alane: That's true.
• 21:58
  Kierstin: Getting more conflict individuals brought in. But I do agree with you as far as seeing some of the admissions, it's more than.
• 22:09
  But at the same time, then there's also like there's the same people are still practicing, you Right? So it hasn't really changed too much as far as who's practicing. I mean, little bit nuance.
• 22:21
  Alane: A case here, a case there. Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:23
  Kierstin: So I think the bigger or new individuals coming in is coming from conflict cases.
• 22:29
  Alane: That's probably true. That's probably true. Yeah. But I do think it's been refreshing that people aren't deterred by the bar exam. They're like, okay, how do I sign up?
• 22:37
  Kierstin: Yeah. Yeah. That is true.
• 22:38
  Alane: It's been good.
• 22:39
  Kierstin: And that's a huge change. I mean, having to take a bar exam, it's a take... Or excuse me, not a take home. It's an Open book. Open book, but you have to sit for three hours and you have the code in front
• 22:52
  of you. No electronics.
• 22:54
  Alane: No electronics. So just multiple choice, short answer, and short essay. But I think it's been interesting because, you know, we are also the ones who grade the...
• 23:06
  The committee is also the ones who scores the exams. And so it's funny how we've all developed, like, our little niches. Like, when it comes to the family law stuff, I'm like, I don't know if that's right or not, Kierstin. Is that right? And then when it comes to the criminal stuff, she's like, I don't know what the code says about that.
• 23:20
  So it's interesting that we all sort of have to, like, find find our way through the code and, like, you know, double check and make sure, okay. Well, you know, trespass is found here, and here's how you... So we're kinda teaching each other in the process.
• 23:30
  Kierstin: Yeah. For sure. I was just gonna say there's things that I'm learning. I'm like, oh, okay. Like, I read this answer and I'm like, Is this correct?
• 23:38
  I can't believe this could be correct. Oh, that's something that probably needs to be updated. We haven't gotten around to this. That's our next priority. But yeah, so I think as far as reflect...
• 23:50
  When you sort of opened it up like a reflection, I think for me the reflection is definitely all the change and for the best. Right? I mean, all of the... I just... I don't know.
• 24:04
  I think my first day on the job, actually, I came to a flooded basement. So... And then now...
• 24:13
  Alane: We have these beautiful offices. It's very pretty, they won an award for it though. So that's all that matters.
• 24:17
  Kierstin: Okay. So as far as me reflecting, you know, based on how you're saying reflecting, I would say, yeah, all the changes. I mean, that's kind of what we've been walking through. But reflecting For me, there seems to be a lot of good stuff happening. And so that's one of the things that I love about working in the community is that there's, yeah, a lot of good
• 24:43
  Alane: Constant growth. Right? Not only in terms of more training, better practice, but also just literal growth. I mean, my office is... So we've talked about this before, but when we moved into the court, we both had all this space.
• 24:57
  Both of our shops all had this... We had multiple empty offices. And we're like, oh my goodness. It's so nice to have all this empty space. We'll never grow into this.
• 25:05
  And now we're both scrambling for extra space. Maxed out. Because we've hired more people and because we've been able to get grants. But all of that means that we can do more. We aren't just locked into the dictionary definition of what our jobs are.
• 25:20
  We can offer more services. We can be more holistic, more mindful of how the criminal process, the civil process affects community members and then, you know, meet them with the resources that they need. And I think that that is a gift because I look to my friends in other jurisdictions who work as prosecutors, and they don't have that ability. They are very locked into, okay. Well, here's the four corners of this document.
• 25:46
  Here's what I'm limited to doing. Whereas we are just a phone call away from being able to offer social supports and mental health care and physical health care. And not only is that possible, but it's also really expected that we try to care for the whole person. And I much prefer doing the work that way.
• 26:03
  Kierstin: Yeah.
• 26:04
  Alane: And I know that you'd... You feel the same.
• 26:05
  Kierstin: For sure. Yeah.
• 26:06
  Alane: And so I think that yeah. I mean, I'll get sappy if I start thinking about it too long because my anniversary is coming up, but... My work anniversary. But I am very grateful to be here, and I'm grateful to have been a part of a lot of these changes.
• 26:18
  Kierstin: Yeah. I would agree with you. Because I had mentioned early October, so I'm right around the corner for my anniversary too. So Yeah.
• 26:26
  Alane: Yeah. Same. Well, that's all we have for today. Thank you so much for listening along as we took our journey down memory lane. If you have questions for us or comments or topics that you'd like us to discuss, please email us at askedandanswered@srpmic-nsn.gov.
• 26:44
  And we will see you next time. Bye. Bye.