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Tune in and Ignite Your Courageous Spirit With Sushama Kirtikar · Speak In Flow

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Melinda Lee: Welcome to the speak in flow podcast. I am so
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pleased about our topic today around how to communicate
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courage on the show is Shama cure Dakar. She brings a wealth
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of knowledge she had had a private practice for 32 years
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specialising as a mental health counsellor. She currently is a
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premier fellow coach at Better U, where she draws on
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neuroscience and positive psychology as a professional and
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personal coach. Today's episode, she breaks down courage, and the
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four components of courage and the challenges around that how
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to communicate courage, and what we can do about it so we can
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communicate courage effectively, even when there's chaos and
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complexity and fear. I can't wait for you to dive into this
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episode. It is amazing. And joy. Hello, Sushama. I'm glad you're
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here.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Thank you. Thank you, Melinda. I'm really
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very happy to be here with you.
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Melinda Lee: Yes, we're going to dive right in. Because I know
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that we have a lot to cover all around courage, and how do we
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communicate courage, especially in our chaotic time in this
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complex world? Let's talk about courage. So I want to know from
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your perspective, and from your experience, having been over 32
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years, a licenced mental health counsellor? What does courage
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mean to you?
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Sushama Kirtikar: Well, you know, when you asked me to think
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about a value or a core strength, I give that some
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thought. And what I recognised is that there are several
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different values that come to my mind. And I use different
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strengths at different times, depending on the need of the
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hour. What bubbled up for me most organically, was the word
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courage. And there was no forethought to it was not as
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though I was, you know, mindfully making a decision, my
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gut offered it to me as the value to talk about today. So
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when I think of courage, what I realised is that I unconsciously
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draw upon it. In the course of the day, it could be simple
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interactions, making choices, it could be in my general workday.
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Now, courage is described as a virtue that enables us and helps
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us exercise our will. And face adversity. This is as defined by
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the VR Institute on character. And VR stands for Values in
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Action. Now, there are four character strengths that have
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been kind of clustered and grouped underneath this virtue.
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And they are bravery, honesty, perseverance, and zest. And I
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would never have thought that these four would come under
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courage. But it makes sense when I recognise how naturally these
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are the ones that are elevate at times, throughout, whether it's
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throughout the day, or you know, depending on a project I'm
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working on, it doesn't matter what. Now, the first one, let's
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look at bravery. Bravery, for example, involves perceived
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personal risk. So it's like I'm out of my comfort zone. And I
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need to take that step, right. However uncomfortable it might
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be, it could be a fear of fear of getting hurt, whether it
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means fear of rejection, whatever it might be, and
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uncertainty of of the outcome. So the end result may be not
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what I hoped for, but are going to push ahead, regardless. So
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these three elements even if they are present, it's about me
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moving ahead. That is significant for me, as far as
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courage is concerned.
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Melinda Lee: I love how you broke that down. And and I love
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the description of when you sense there's fear when there's
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doubt when we don't know what the line ahead, that's
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immediately sending a visceral response in my body right now.
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Okay, this is when I could potentially tap into courage,
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right? When I'm sensing these visceral feelings that I could
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potentially go into fear, more fear, or I can leverage an
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opportunity to go into courage, which includes bravery. And so
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how, what about other pieces of honesty and you're sure so
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Sushama Kirtikar: So when we look at that, all of these,
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let's say, bravery itself, it takes on different forms, there
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could be moral bravery, where I am standing up for my
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principles. Physical, of course, is about facing bodily danger.
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Psychological is about confronting the fear of making a
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wrong decision if you're a failure, of embarrassment, and
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so on. And, for example, let's say you're not in alignment with
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your peers, your colleagues. And you're still speaking up despite
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the possibility of being an outlier. That takes courage. So
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you are being who you are. And that's that authenticity piece.
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So it naturally flows, you are now being authentic, you're
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being honest about who you are, and you're speaking your truth.
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So that's another piece to look at. Perseverance is about again,
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continuing to push ahead, despite hurdle, despite all
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odds, despite criticisms. And you are going to continue to
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convey your message. And what's important is the zest piece and
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see this was what always, I mean, it took me aback when I
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realised that they included zest under courage. And this is, you
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know, science that they have used positive psychology really
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studied across different cultures across times to put
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together these virtues, six different virtues and different
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clusters of character strengths that fall under each virtue. So
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on the verge of under the virtue of courage, zest, is that
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passion, the energy, the enthusiasm that you bring to the
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situation? And for you to be able to make an impact to
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actually influence another individual. Right? You want that
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passion? Yeah, and how difficult that can be? In especially when
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we don't know, right? When we don't know what is about to
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happen? Yes, we don't know what the outcome is.
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Melinda Lee: Yeah,
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Sushama Kirtikar: despite that uncertainty and make sense, you
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go ahead, because you believe in the process, you believe in what
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it is that you are presenting, that is very important. That is
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so important. That means you have to really take a deep dive
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into honesty. And that's why these are so important. The
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honesty and the authenticity of this is who I am, and this is
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what I stand for. Exactly. Amazing. I love that. And and
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what do you think are the key challenges that leaders have
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with communicating courage like this? Well, what I noticed is
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that, you know, leaders naturally, I mean, they are
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leaders because they have, you know, exhibited, and they have
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engaged courage in order to reach that position. Sometimes,
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it could be, and this is another interesting piece is the overuse
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of strength. Any one of these could be used in excess. So
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there is such a thing. It's not like, you know, okay, I'm really
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fantastic. And great at this, and I'm really going to power it
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up. But sometimes it is to our detriment, bravery, taken to an
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extreme could be foolhardiness. So that's when you want to kind
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of pause, use the past principle and ask yourself, Okay, wait a
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minute, what do I need to do now? So you could look at some
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of your basic strengths, which are your middle strengths, or
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your lower strengths. And what comes to my mind right now is
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judgement, bring up the strength of good judgement, to make a
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decision that is sound and rooted in reality. And you're
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essentially using critical thinking. So you're using that
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critical thinking piece to bring down this, you know, I'm willing
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to take a risk, let's just forge ahead. And they're trying to
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convince the group that this is the way to go. But maybe they
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are overselling. And so it's about that pause principle. Do I
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want to listen to other people's inputs? Do I want to hear what
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they have to say? So keeping that openness, so you can then
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bring in good judgement. So you will that you can pause?
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Melinda Lee: And I need to stop?
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Sushama Kirtikar: Pauses not stop. Right. Sure. And then
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moving ahead, right. It's not like you're defeated. You're
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actually being very mindful about that. Right? A boss
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principle is just beautiful. So next comes honesty. Honesty
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taken to an extreme can also be detrimental. Sometimes I've had
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clients say to me, you know, my friend tells me that I am honest
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to a fault and to blunt, right? Okay? So just because I'm
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honest, doesn't make that doesn't mean that others are
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open to hearing me out. Yeah, I could be brutal in the way that
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I am being honest. And if I'm hurting somebody else's
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feelings, then they are busy getting defensive, the walls are
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going up. And so what is important, then at that point,
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is to look at, well, how can I temper this? Okay, now I can
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pull up on social intelligence, become aware of other people's
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mood? What motivates them? What are their drives, you know, what
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are their emotional responses, paying attention to verbal and
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nonverbal clues, cue, sorry. So you're getting out of your own
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sphere, to become attuned to the other, right. So you stay
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honest. And you don't have to be just simply bulldozing your way
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through with that honesty, you could take a pause to check in
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and see how it's been received. Yeah, then comes perseverance.
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Now, this is my Achilles heel. But I can persevere, you know,
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it's like I'm thinking I've, I'm like, like a dog with a bone,
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I'm not going to let go. Take it into an extreme might mean that
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you're just spinning your wheels doing the same thing over and
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over again, without, you know, getting a, you know, you're
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expecting a different result, but you're not being successful
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at it. And so there is such a thing as continuing to
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persevere. fruitless. So that's when I've had to learn this is
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to moderate it by pulling up on perspective, which is the
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bigger, higher, broader viewpoint to get a bigger
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picture, and ask yourself, you know, what, am I getting lost in
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here? Why am I so stuck? And so I could be persevering, but then
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my wheel is only going in deeper in the mud. If I'm continuing to
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accelerate without pausing and looking at what other tools do I
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need to get myself out of the ditch that I've stuck myself
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there? Right, right. Right, right. So that's an important
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piece as well. And then the fourth one of zest, overdoing
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zest, can be counterproductive. And you want to soften it with,
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let's say, humility. So again, you are now
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taking a deep breath in making space for others or unions and
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energy.
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On the other hand, if your enthusiasm is sort of slowly
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fading, and you're noticing that you're kind of dragging in
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energy as you're going into, you know, whether it's a
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conversation with a group or whoever it might be, you could
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pull up on your higher strength of curiosity, which could help
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show your zest and enthusiasm, because curiosity is just about
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learning about the other viewpoint, the other individual,
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the other people's perspectives. And your energies back in. Oh,
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yeah, definitely. Yes. I mean, I love just Yeah, drawing on
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curiosity, because especially if our if we noticed that we are
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disengaged, like tapping into curiosity, and how much more
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powerful when we do finally communicate, when we are able to
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get curious about the other person, and then communicating
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from that space because deeply about where the other person's
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at, and then I can frame my what I want to say in a way that is
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connected and engaged, and then suddenly, we're back into
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engagement and conversation.
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Melinda Lee: Yeah, right. Right. I love that.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Yeah, absolutely.
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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I could see how all of these you would think
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honesty, perseverance is, the more we have, the better. But at
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the same time, like you mentioned, that can be overused,
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right. And it also reminds me of the importance of, of people,
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they've trusted people that are around me to be able to temper
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down or give me feedback and give me some honest perspective.
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When I'm able to take that pause or when I do need to take take
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that pause to give me some reflection of what might be
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happening when I'm overusing because I could see if I'm just
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over I find the strength and I keep on using it. I might am
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might not see. And so it just reminds me the importance of
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having trusted people around us.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And more
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and more this whole piece about the social connections and
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creating, creating rapid rapport is becoming integral for
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leadership. Right. Leadership is is, you know, leaders are having
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to really learn how to connect with people, other people
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matter.
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Melinda Lee: Right. Right. And do it authentically,
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meaningfully, especially with the rise of AI and robots
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everywhere.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Yes, yes. Yes. That's that's a whole different
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conversation. Right, right. Oh, my goodness, you exude like you
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mentioned, I love that you said that courage just bubbled up
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inside, it wasn't something you had to think through just
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something that your gut told you.
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Melinda Lee: Because I want you to share if you can share your
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your story of how you took courage, personally, and brought
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that into your life and how you're able to communicate your
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courage and strength with others.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Sure, so what's coming to my mind,
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because this has been, you know, like a very powerful experience
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that I had was in 2019, I was diagnosed with cancer, a high
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grade sir, coma, the soft tissue in the ankle.
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And since it was an aggressive cancer, it had to be treated
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immediately. And the urgency was being conveyed to me by the very
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first psychologist whom I consulted. He gave me options,
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you know, nothing, you don't do anything, which is not a good
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option, or you go through your chemo therapy, radiation
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surgeries, the usual sort of route, that cancer treatment in,
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you know, sort of entails. And then you give me another option
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of amputation below the knee. And his recommendation was, that
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is your best option is amputation below the knee, I
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have not yet. I got chills sort of wrap my head around the
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diagnosis of cancer and hear us talking, you know, a drastic
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sort of treatment. Now, his premise was that it is to
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prevent it from metastasizing and spreading elsewhere. And he
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comes from 30 plus years of experience. So he carried a lot
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of clout and credibility, I respect but at the same time,
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what came up for me was this, this was when courage came up.
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For me, it just sort of rose up most unconsciously, it was not
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something premeditated or mindfully acted on. Bravery
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literally literally came to my rescue because I stood firm in
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my conviction, there again, standing to your, you know, up
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to your principles, my conviction that a patient has to
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be an informed patient. And so I asked for some credible
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resources that I could tap into, to read up on all my different
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treatment options. He's Summerlee, just waved aside my
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request like that with his hands, saying he would give them
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to me after I'd made my decision. And that's when I took
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a former stand and pushed for time to research even though the
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fear of displeasing my provider was very eminent. I mean, I
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could feel it Oh, no, he's going to be upset,
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Melinda Lee: or and it's spreading.
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Sushama Kirtikar: And it's spreading. Yeah, he continued to
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dismiss my needs as being untimely. That is when I made
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the clear announcement that I would be going for a second
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opinion. unser uncertainty was their uncertainty of outcome. I
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had no idea what this meant. I had I didn't understand the
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language of cancer. All I knew is that I needed time for this
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to percolate for me to integrate this reality and then to make a
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judgement call based on what I thought was the right thing for
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me to do it was my body so living by my values was
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paramount at that moment. I want to and I want to pursue yes
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Melinda Lee: courage the courage when what you talked about
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earlier, so you sense bravery, courage, bravery, okay. You're
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getting the sense So there's uncertainty, there's fear. And
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so then you're now this courage is bubbling up and then you went
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into the honesty of who you are. I'm standing to mine. Exactly.
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Then I personally heard I know the person
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Sushama Kirtikar: Even when he continued to say no, oh, I give
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you 24 hours. I said, No, that's not enough. He said, Okay, give
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you 72 hours. I said, No, that is not enough. And so that was
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all happening. In the in that moment, there was no time to
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think and reflect and make decisions. I was just going on
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my gut. Yeah. And, if you will, there was passion, there was
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energy behind all of that, because I was not being soft
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spoken, I was just very assertive. So that is something
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that I feel. I mean, this is when I look back, I recognise
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how it all came to my rescue. But it's because I think I must
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have been practising this over time. And so powerful, it's,
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it's just invaluable.
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Melinda Lee: And then what happened.
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Sushama Kirtikar: I ended up getting a second opinion, if you
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want my story, I ended up getting a second opinion. And
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the other the second oncologist, I had a third opinion also lined
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up, which I didn't end up taking, but the second opinion
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turned out to be a limb saving measures. And so I went through
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radiation, very, you know, extensive, strong radiation
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therapy for the ankle, and followed up by multiple
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reconstructive surgeries, where they took a flap from my upper
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arm, I'm sorry, my arm and put it on the ankle that you know
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where the excision was, was done. And then they took another
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flap from graft from the thigh to put it on the arm. So it was
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all you know, patch work. That was done it just incredible,
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incredible work. Gratitude goes out to everybody. Good. Oh, my
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goodness, what a story. Yeah, yeah. And it really took a
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village. I mean, everybody, you know, all my support system,
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everybody. Yeah.
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Melinda Lee: Thank goodness. I know you're working on a book,
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you know, to show the details, but just wanted to let the
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audience know, eventually a books going to come out on this
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documenting your journey and your courage during this ride.
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Sushama Kirtikar: My hope is to create a hybrid memoir, where
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I'm sharing the personal story along with applications from
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positive psychology. I think that that is very, that would be
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helpful. It's kind of like a legacy I'd like to leave behind
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for my family, but it touches somebody else, then it's worth
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it. Oh, my goodness, I can Yes, I believe it will. And those are
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going to touch many lives. Thank you. Thank you so much for
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sharing that personal journey and that story of courage.
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Melinda Lee: And I love how we could just break down I can see
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all the components of courage come through very clearly.And so
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what is your golden community? I this is what I asked all the
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guests on us. What is your golden communication tip that
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you can share.
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Sushama Kirtikar: So So yes, my tip is speak with courage. And
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number one, have the bravery to show up, just show up despite
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self doubts, fears, misgivings. And this is where I like to
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quote Nelson Mandela, who said, I learned that courage was not
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the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man
24:02
is not he who does not feel afraid. But he who conquers that
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fear. And so that's important number to show up authentically,
24:12
which is being who you are, you can't come prepared. But you do
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not have to put on an act, or try to be like someone else.
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your authentic self is the most unique quality that you possess,
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and it's your gift to mankind to humankind. No one else can be
24:32
like you. So revel in it and bring your true self to the
24:37
situation. Number three, persevere despite all odds and
24:41
hurdles, even when the other person is unable to get your
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viewpoint or you're not achieving your desired result.
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Persistent don't give up as Angela Duckworth would say. Grit
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is passion and perseverance for very long term goals. So keep at
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it when you hit road Blocks, you will prevail. And the fourth
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piece being bring enthusiasm and zest with you. That is the way
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you're bound to make an impact on others. Your energy can be
25:16
both magnetic and electrifying. And when you speak, the other
25:21
person hears and listens. And that creates what you were
25:25
talking about physiological synchrony because it's believed
25:30
that heartbeats and brain signals move in harmony. There
25:35
are dual e G's that prove that it's magical. So speak with
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courage, and you will move mountains.
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Melinda Lee: I love that. Wow. I like the science behind that to
25:48
the dual EEGS when we speak as
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Sushama Kirtikar: I just read about that. scientist, Dr. Sarah
25:54
McCabe who talks about, you know, it's just just so full of
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neuroscience and positive psychology, I just get drawn to that.
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Melinda Lee: I love and even when you're speaking, I can feel
26:09
the love, I can feel the passion and so I'm getting harmonised
26:13
with your spirit thank you so much. That was wonderful. I
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think that that was I learned so much on how to communicate with
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courage, even in this in in when there's fear. Just not because
26:26
there's no fear is when there's fear that we are able to tap
26:31
into our courage and strength. And so I really, I think that we
26:35
have a lot of valuable insight here. And so thank you so much
26:39
for sharing that experience, your knowledge and expertise.
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Sushama Kirtikar: Thank you very much for having me.
26:45
Melinda Lee: It was a joy. It was great. Thank you until next
26:48
time, I'll see you all the next show. Take care.
26:53
Unknown: Okay,