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China's Plan to Destroy America Starts With Iran — Gordon Chang — ScoreChang 4-1-26 · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:00
Speaker 1: They told you China was funding Iran, But that's not
0:02
Speaker 1: the whole story, not by a long shot. China didn't
0:05
Speaker 1: just write the checks. They supplied the drones. They hated
0:07
Speaker 1: over the microchips that killed six Americans, both on US
0:11
Speaker 1: soil and overseas. Gordon Scheng has the details, he's got
0:15
Speaker 1: the evidence that he's naming names. You've got to see this.
0:18
Speaker 1: Why hasn't China done anything since the military operation started
0:22
Speaker 1: in Iran?
0:24
Speaker 2: Because from a military point of view, China is not
0:27
Speaker 2: able to oppose the United States. When the United States
0:31
Speaker 2: exerts and uses force and is determined, China has to
0:35
Speaker 2: withdraw and stand on the sidelines. But the broader question is,
0:40
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't need to do this. You know,
0:43
Speaker 2: there wouldn't have been a war in the Middle East
0:45
Speaker 2: over Iran if China had not supplied Iran with all
0:48
Speaker 2: the components for a nuclear weapons program, for instance, and
0:52
Speaker 2: we know that China has supplied a substantial portion of
0:56
Speaker 2: Iran's weapons. So for instance, those supersonic anti ship crews
1:00
Speaker 2: missiles that are ron fired at the Abraham Lincoln are
1:03
Speaker 2: a craft carrier. Those are Chinese, and that those drones,
1:07
Speaker 2: those drones the shells and the components, including micro chips.
1:11
Speaker 2: They come from China, which means that China directly participated
1:15
Speaker 2: in the killing of six American service members on March
1:19
Speaker 2: first in Kuwait.
1:21
Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang. The new book is called Plan
1:24
Speaker 1: a Red Go to Gordon g Chang over on X.
1:26
Speaker 1: Strictly speaking, Gordon, Are they friends? Are Iran and China friends?
1:30
Speaker 1: Because I think they would be diametrically opposed, China being
1:32
Speaker 1: in more agnostic or atheist country and Iran's certainly a
1:36
Speaker 1: nutsjob theocracy. So are they friendly or are they Is this
1:40
Speaker 1: a financial and geographical sort of coalition.
1:46
Speaker 2: A marriage of convenience, Yes it is. But the point
1:50
Speaker 2: here is that it doesn't really matter whether they are
1:52
Speaker 2: going to be friends forever. They're not. But the point
1:56
Speaker 2: is in the here and now, which is what concerns us.
1:58
Speaker 2: They are friends now. China's leaders have this notion that
2:02
Speaker 2: China's the world's only sovereign state that's TNCA are all
2:06
Speaker 2: under heaven, And of course the Iranian theocracy believes in
2:09
Speaker 2: a worldwide caliphate. So those two visions are completely inconsistent
2:14
Speaker 2: with each other. But they've been friendly over the course
2:17
Speaker 2: of decades. And China has made Iran the threat that
2:20
Speaker 2: it is. I mean, we wouldn't be worried about Iran
2:23
Speaker 2: today if it weren't for the Chinese support, weapons support,
2:27
Speaker 2: diplomatic support, propaganda support, everything across the board except for
2:31
Speaker 2: combat troops.
2:33
Speaker 1: It's sort of like Shia and Sudi Muslims get along
2:36
Speaker 1: now until they get rid of the rest of us,
2:38
Speaker 1: then they can kill each other.
2:40
Speaker 2: Something like that. Yes, and this is also true of
2:43
Speaker 2: China and Russia. You know, Russia. Putin wants to expand
2:49
Speaker 2: the Russian Empire at its greatest extent and basically takeover neighbors.
2:56
Speaker 2: And that, of course is inconsistent with this TNCA notion.
2:59
Speaker 2: But it doesn't really matter. You know. You hear a
3:01
Speaker 2: lot of very smart people in Washington and New York say, oh,
3:04
Speaker 2: you know, Moscow and Beijing they won't be enduring friends. Well, yeah,
3:09
Speaker 2: that's right, but it's completely irrelevant because I'm not worried
3:14
Speaker 2: about China and Russia in the twenty sixties. I'm worried
3:17
Speaker 2: about China and Russia now.
3:19
Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang. Gordon g Chang over on x
3:21
Speaker 1: go get his book called Plan Red. I appreciate the
3:24
Speaker 1: time and the excess. Is China helping Iran with logistics?
3:27
Speaker 1: Are they helping them with information and intelligence? I know
3:30
Speaker 1: that that was pooplued by this administration saying well, if
3:33
Speaker 1: they are, they're not very good at it because they're
3:35
Speaker 1: not doing anything. But are they, in your belief, actively helping.
3:39
Speaker 2: Oh, of course. So for instance, that large Chinese intelligence
3:43
Speaker 2: collection ship just off of Iran, I'm sure that's supplying
3:47
Speaker 2: real time intel to the Iranians. And you know, before
3:51
Speaker 2: the war, there was a private Chinese company, maser Vision,
3:55
Speaker 2: which was supplying to the world the location of US
3:58
Speaker 2: military assets along with the coordinates. So yes, that's very
4:04
Speaker 2: much what we know, and I'm sure there's a lot
4:06
Speaker 2: that we don't know. So we need to call that
4:09
Speaker 2: out in public because if we don't, the Chinese will
4:12
Speaker 2: have think that they can help around with impunity.
4:16
Speaker 1: Is there some reason China would want unrest in the
4:19
Speaker 1: Middle East? Does China have a problem with Israel specifically?
4:22
Speaker 1: Is it just about them expanding, you know, the belief
4:24
Speaker 1: that they should control the entire world. If I can
4:27
Speaker 1: keep this enopheovile, then I can maybe control it easier,
4:29
Speaker 1: because I think everybody else wants peace in the Middle East.
4:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Seeson thing is really interesting because I think
4:36
Speaker 2: he's taken two pages out of his heroes, mal Zadong's playbook.
4:40
Speaker 2: One of them is to encircle the cities from the countryside,
4:43
Speaker 2: which I think that he believes that Ukraine, North Africa,
4:49
Speaker 2: you know, all the rest of the world that's countryside
4:51
Speaker 2: and where the city. But also mald believed in chaos.
4:55
Speaker 2: He believed that chaos would lead to worldwide Chinese rule.
5:00
Speaker 2: And so I think Cjmpe looks at the disruption of
5:02
Speaker 2: societies has really weigh stations or intermediate steps to his
5:07
Speaker 2: complete control of humanity. So here's a guy who believes
5:10
Speaker 2: that just killing other people is really good for Chinese
5:13
Speaker 2: foreign policy.
5:15
Speaker 1: Gatestone Institute's senior fellow it is Gordon Chang. Gordon g.
5:19
Speaker 1: Chang over on ex Goo and following right now. He's
5:21
Speaker 1: a great follow the stuff that you post. I learned
5:23
Speaker 1: so much from every day, and I appreciate that. Let's
5:25
Speaker 1: talk about the strait of her moves. The strait of
5:27
Speaker 1: her moves being closed doesn't help China, that actually hurts China.
5:30
Speaker 1: So what is their position on that?
5:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. First of all, Iran has
5:36
Speaker 2: allowed Chinese ships or ships bound for China carrying oil.
5:41
Speaker 2: They've allowed that through the strait, and so China gets
5:45
Speaker 2: an enormous competitive advantage from that. Also, Iran about a
5:49
Speaker 2: week ago, announced that it was going to allow the
5:52
Speaker 2: transit of ships whose cargoes were paid for in rem
5:56
Speaker 2: and b the Chinese currency. Okay, so that certainly helps Chin,
6:00
Speaker 2: but ultimately it I think undermines China's interest in the
6:04
Speaker 2: world because China right now, it's only help for economic
6:09
Speaker 2: growth is more exports, and what's happening in the Middle
6:13
Speaker 2: East is helping to deglobalize the world. So ultimately this
6:18
Speaker 2: is not good for China.
6:20
Speaker 1: Does the US have any pressure it can put on
6:22
Speaker 1: China to somehow open that pathway for all ships and
6:26
Speaker 1: not just Theirs. I would imagine we have economic leverage,
6:29
Speaker 1: but anything else.
6:31
Speaker 2: Well, we have enormous amount of leverage over China, which
6:33
Speaker 2: is increasingly fragile right now. But the one thing President
6:36
Speaker 2: Trump should do is he should just close the strait.
6:40
Speaker 2: I mean, the Iranians have closed the straight to our
6:43
Speaker 2: ships and the ships of our friends and partners and allies.
6:46
Speaker 2: But we have not stopped Iran ships or China ships
6:51
Speaker 2: from going through the Strait. If we want to put
6:53
Speaker 2: pressure on the Chinese to help us, well, you just
6:56
Speaker 2: can't be nice to them and plead to them, which
6:59
Speaker 2: is basically what this and previous administrations have been doing.
7:02
Speaker 2: What you need to do in this case is closed
7:04
Speaker 2: the straight and really bottle up the Chinese and say, look,
7:08
Speaker 2: we want a quick end to this. Otherwise, Joe, this
7:10
Speaker 2: is going to go on for a very long time.
7:13
Speaker 1: The book is called Plan Red, Go and get it.
7:14
Speaker 1: It's Gordon g. Chang over on exits. Gordon Chang really
7:18
Speaker 1: appreciate having you on. When it comes to China and oil,
7:21
Speaker 1: I've never understood this. I'm just doing I guess I'm
7:23
Speaker 1: not smart enough. When it comes to the geography of China.
7:26
Speaker 1: They've got all these precious metals, all these minerals that
7:28
Speaker 1: are needed for batteries and everything else. They've got no
7:31
Speaker 1: oil at all in China. They are reliant on the
7:33
Speaker 1: rest of the globe to get the energy that most
7:35
Speaker 1: of us use.
7:37
Speaker 2: Well, they have their own oil, and they've got a
7:39
Speaker 2: lot of other sources of energy, and they've got whatever
7:43
Speaker 2: they can buy from Russia. But China, nonetheless is the
7:46
Speaker 2: world's largest oil importer. It gets six point six percent
7:51
Speaker 2: of its total energy, not just oil, but it's total
7:55
Speaker 2: energy through the Strait. It gets maybe somewhere between forty
7:59
Speaker 2: five and fifty of its imported oil through the Strait.
8:03
Speaker 2: Those numbers are actually pretty big.
8:07
Speaker 1: Did did the president going in and getting Maduro in
8:09
Speaker 1: Venezuela and shutting down the ability to export that oil
8:13
Speaker 1: to places like China? And I don't know if that
8:15
Speaker 1: Ron was getting oil probably next that can't refine it,
8:17
Speaker 1: but know that China was getting a ton of it,
8:19
Speaker 1: ninety percent of what was coming out of Venezuela. How
8:21
Speaker 1: much did that hurt China when the President did that?
8:25
Speaker 2: It hurt China a lot. And even if China can
8:28
Speaker 2: biled by Venezuelan oil in the future, they're not going
8:31
Speaker 2: to be able to get it at the big discounts
8:34
Speaker 2: that Maduro and Chavez before him were providing the Chinese.
8:38
Speaker 2: And that means that China's outstanding loan balance because Venezuela
8:42
Speaker 2: owes we don't know exactly how much, maybe twelve, maybe
8:46
Speaker 2: twenty billion dollars left over from their initial sixty five
8:50
Speaker 2: billion dollar debt. That means that there's really no way
8:53
Speaker 2: that Venezuela can pay back China. So there's a lot
8:56
Speaker 2: of reasons why China got hurt when we extracted Maduro
9:00
Speaker 2: and his wife on January three.
9:02
Speaker 1: When that relationship was at its height between China and
9:06
Speaker 1: Iran was involved, Cuba was involved over in Venezuela when
9:09
Speaker 1: all that was going on. Was that really about oil?
9:12
Speaker 1: I know that a big part of it was obviously
9:14
Speaker 1: you just explained the percentages that they get, or was
9:16
Speaker 1: that about China somehow infiltrating the Western hemisphere?
9:22
Speaker 2: It was all the above and mentioned encircling the cities
9:26
Speaker 2: from the countryside. Well, that's part of China's strategy in
9:30
Speaker 2: Venezuela and Cuba and other places. And China ended up
9:34
Speaker 2: being far more influential than we were in our western hemisphere.
9:39
Speaker 2: So what Trump did was he disrupted those relationships, and
9:42
Speaker 2: he showed not just Venezuela and Cuba, but the rest
9:45
Speaker 2: of the region as well that the US was not
9:47
Speaker 2: going to put up with Chinese troublemaking in close to
9:50
Speaker 2: American borders.
9:52
Speaker 1: Did China and its leaders just love When Obama was
9:55
Speaker 1: in office, And here's what I mean. Obama would say
9:57
Speaker 1: something stupid like We're not going to go and drill
9:59
Speaker 1: in the outer county the out of continent's shelf. And
10:01
Speaker 1: then China said, oh, that's cool because cub and I
10:04
Speaker 1: will do it off the coast of Cuba, which is
10:06
Speaker 1: ninety miles away from Florida. We'll go and get the
10:08
Speaker 1: resources that God gave you because you don't want them.
10:11
Speaker 1: So he Chin to just love when he was in office.
10:15
Speaker 2: Unbalanced And this is a really complex question you asked,
10:19
Speaker 2: but unbalanced. I think they loved Obama. And one of
10:22
Speaker 2: the reasons is that Obama bought into this Clinton notion
10:25
Speaker 2: of managed to climb. And so this is George W. Bush,
10:30
Speaker 2: this was Biden, you know, Republican and democratic foreign policy establishments.
10:37
Speaker 2: You know. Trump came in and said, look, I'm not
10:38
Speaker 2: buying it. Now. There are things that Trump does that
10:41
Speaker 2: Beijing loves. But Unbalanced, I think Beijing is really really
10:46
Speaker 2: afraid of President Trump because he's unpredictable. He's willing to
10:50
Speaker 2: take steps that the Chinese would not be able to counter,
10:53
Speaker 2: and so I think that they're apoplectic right now. And
10:56
Speaker 2: that's even true. That's true, even though there are certain
10:59
Speaker 2: things that Trump does which actually helped China But on balance,
11:03
Speaker 2: I think that they really are afraid of Trump.
11:06
Speaker 1: What does he do that helps them?
11:10
Speaker 2: Trump has disrupted the Atlantic Alliance and we need our
11:15
Speaker 2: partners in Europe. Uh, and that's not good, you know.
11:21
Speaker 1: So I don't mean to interrupt, but when you say
11:22
Speaker 1: Atlantic Alliance, you mean NATO. Right. So, so with him
11:26
Speaker 1: saying pay more, with him saying why are we protecting
11:28
Speaker 1: you if you're not gonna if you're not going to
11:30
Speaker 1: give some more money, When he says things like why
11:32
Speaker 1: aren't you helping me open the strait of her moves?
11:34
Speaker 1: China likes that.
11:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, those are things that you know. Is
11:40
Speaker 2: Trump is really good. He's getting NATO countries to spend more.
11:44
Speaker 2: But the other thing, though, is that he's royaled those
11:47
Speaker 2: relationships with for instance, not taking war off the table
11:50
Speaker 2: with Denmark, which isn't good. Now I'll just give you
11:54
Speaker 2: an example with Canada. Trump gets a lot of it
12:00
Speaker 2: for raising national security issues and threats that the Canadian
12:04
Speaker 2: government has allowed to fester north of our border. Previous
12:08
Speaker 2: American presidents wouldn't do it. But Trump has pushed Ottawa
12:13
Speaker 2: in very close to China. And that's not good because
12:17
Speaker 2: we've got this long border, and we do not need
12:20
Speaker 2: any more dangerous elements in Canada threatening US. So Trump
12:24
Speaker 2: needs to solve that problem. So China looks at that
12:27
Speaker 2: as an I basically is an opportunity to take over Canada,
12:31
Speaker 2: and that's not impossible, Joe. But the ultimately, I think
12:35
Speaker 2: Trump will get this and sort it out and do
12:37
Speaker 2: the right thing. But right now we've got an enormous
12:40
Speaker 2: problem just north of our border. Forget about you know,
12:43
Speaker 2: problems that other countries pose to us. We've got Canada
12:47
Speaker 2: right there, and that's an investoring problem.
12:50
Speaker 1: It really is. You know, it brings me back to
12:52
Speaker 1: a picture that I saw of Justin Trudeau. It might
12:54
Speaker 1: have even met a short video of Trudeau when he
12:56
Speaker 1: was in charge, meeting with Shishi Ping and the media.
13:00
Speaker 1: It was almost as if Ping was the father gave
13:03
Speaker 1: him or she was the father, and looked at him like,
13:06
Speaker 1: you know, you better better sit out, son, and Trudeau
13:09
Speaker 1: appeared to genuflect. I mean that did you see that too?
13:13
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean that was disgusting. But you know, fortunately
13:17
Speaker 2: Trudeau is no longer Prime minister. But we got Carne.
13:20
Speaker 2: And what did Carne do when he went to Beijing? Well,
13:22
Speaker 2: he didn't genuflect literally, but figuratively he did, and he
13:27
Speaker 2: talked about the new World order over there, and he
13:29
Speaker 2: talked about China as a strategic partner, and he came
13:33
Speaker 2: and ended up with an agreement on trade, which is
13:36
Speaker 2: going to be really bad for the United States. So yeah,
13:40
Speaker 2: I think justin Trudeau was a real problem. But we've
13:43
Speaker 2: got a bigger one in the form of Mark Carney,
13:46
Speaker 2: the current Prime Minister.
13:47
Speaker 1: No, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that
13:49
Speaker 1: he's Trudeau lighter, maybe Trudeau two point zero. At the
13:52
Speaker 1: end of the day, our relationship with with Canada is very,
13:55
Speaker 1: very important, just like it is with Mexico. I mean,
13:57
Speaker 1: as you said, they're bordering with us, and if some
13:59
Speaker 1: somebody could infiltrate one of those countries, that's going to
14:02
Speaker 1: be a real problem for us. How big a deal
14:04
Speaker 1: is it that President Trump is incentivizing manufacturing coming back here.
14:08
Speaker 1: As you and I were growing up, most of the
14:09
Speaker 1: manufacturing happened here. It's the textile industry built this country,
14:13
Speaker 1: along with automotive. Now you've got China producing almost everything,
14:17
Speaker 1: and they got away with doing it by incentivizing manufacturing
14:20
Speaker 1: going there and paying people nothing to go and build
14:22
Speaker 1: this stuff and then selling it back to US for
14:24
Speaker 1: very cheap, and we like cheap stuff. How big a
14:26
Speaker 1: deal is it if manufacturing continues to pour trillions of
14:30
Speaker 1: dollars into the United States, does that crippled China?
14:33
Speaker 2: Ultimately it does, because the Chinese say, well, they're the
14:37
Speaker 2: world's factory floor. So this is a really important thing
14:40
Speaker 2: that President Trump has done. This is you know, going
14:43
Speaker 2: back to this issue of Trump not accepting managed declimb.
14:46
Speaker 2: This is important, this important initiative that Trump started in
14:51
Speaker 2: his first term, and even Biden continued it because it
14:56
Speaker 2: was made so much sense, and of course Trump in
14:58
Speaker 2: his second term has continued with more ferocity. So this
15:02
Speaker 2: is very, very very good for us.
15:05
Speaker 1: Let me go back to Iran for a second. Why
15:07
Speaker 1: exactly would China, that's a whole lot closer to Iran
15:10
Speaker 1: than we are, Why would they want them to have
15:12
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons?
15:15
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and I think there are a
15:18
Speaker 2: couple of answers to it. I think that the Chinese
15:22
Speaker 2: realized that if you know, they were going to get
15:24
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons anyway somewhere down the road, so they might
15:27
Speaker 2: as well supply them and get Iran on its side.
15:31
Speaker 2: That's just a guess. But China has had this pro
15:37
Speaker 2: proliferation thread through its external relations, so it's not just Iran,
15:42
Speaker 2: of course, it's Pakistan and Iraq and Libya. These were
15:47
Speaker 2: real attempts to disrupt the world. So it is. It's
15:51
Speaker 2: a long standing something you can see in Chinese foreign policy.
15:56
Speaker 1: It's sort of the point of no return. Marco Rubio
15:59
Speaker 1: said something in the past where if we just laid
16:02
Speaker 1: back and letter Ron continue once they have it, that's it.
16:05
Speaker 1: We can't do anything to stop them. The only country
16:07
Speaker 1: I can think of, and there might have been others,
16:09
Speaker 1: I'm not the expert on this, The only country I
16:11
Speaker 1: can think of the give up its nukes is Ukraine,
16:13
Speaker 1: and Ukraine giving up the nukes that actually were owned
16:15
Speaker 1: by the Soviet Union, but they got them in part
16:17
Speaker 1: of how the Iron Curtain fell down. They gave them
16:21
Speaker 1: back and now they're being invaded by somebody. So once
16:23
Speaker 1: you get nuclear weapons, it's likely you're never going to
16:25
Speaker 1: give them up. So I mean, is China not smart
16:29
Speaker 1: enough to realize what happened to us when we befriended
16:32
Speaker 1: the Mujahadeen to take on the Soviet Union in Afghanistan?
16:36
Speaker 1: Because as soon as he could bin Laden attackt Us.
16:39
Speaker 1: Do they not realize that's likely to happen, or do
16:41
Speaker 1: they think they can control Iran.
16:43
Speaker 2: I think that they believe that they can control Iran
16:46
Speaker 2: and other Arab and Muslim states. Now I think they
16:51
Speaker 2: may have greater confidence than they need to have. They're
16:54
Speaker 2: having problems with Afghanistan right now. For instance, they had
16:58
Speaker 2: a long standing relationship. It's been Laden. As matter of fact,
17:02
Speaker 2: they supported Ben Lauden up until nine to eleven, and
17:06
Speaker 2: so you know, we need to understand how that happened.
17:11
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that they believe that they can
17:13
Speaker 2: get a short term benefit from it and they can
17:17
Speaker 2: control the consequences.
17:18
Speaker 1: I mean, Iran will get whatever it can get until
17:21
Speaker 1: it doesn't need you anymore. And I'm not really sure
17:23
Speaker 1: why other you know, other nation states don't realize that
17:25
Speaker 1: it's Gordon Chang Gordon g Chang over on EXCO. Following there,
17:28
Speaker 1: get the book called Playing Red. I love spending time.
17:31
Speaker 1: You brought up Afghanistan. I have to go here that
17:34
Speaker 1: air base and I can't think of the name of it.
17:36
Speaker 1: Maybe you could think of the name of it off
17:37
Speaker 1: the top of your head, exactly. Bagram right. We gave
17:40
Speaker 1: Bagram up and it's four hundred miles to China from Bogram.
17:43
Speaker 1: It was a smart thing for us to keep, but
17:45
Speaker 1: Biden just gives it back. Does China have control of that? Now?
17:48
Speaker 1: Did they go through our technology and all the equipment
17:51
Speaker 1: that we had or did the did the Taliban keep that?
17:53
Speaker 1: Do you know what happened with Bogram and it's China.
17:56
Speaker 1: I would imagine China was very good friends with Afghanistan
17:59
Speaker 1: at the moment and went in there and did what
18:00
Speaker 1: they had to do.
18:02
Speaker 2: Fill me in, Yeah, they had. They were really good
18:06
Speaker 2: on really good terms with Afghanistan immediately after the fall
18:11
Speaker 2: August twenty twenty one. Things have gotten a little bit
18:15
Speaker 2: rocky since then, and part of it is because China
18:18
Speaker 2: also supports Pakistan, and Pakistan and Afghanistan are going at
18:21
Speaker 2: it right now. I don't think China controls the air base.
18:25
Speaker 2: But you know that eighty six billion dollars of equipment
18:28
Speaker 2: that Mark Milly left, You know, the Chinese have seen it.
18:33
Speaker 2: They might not have gotten too much out of it,
18:35
Speaker 2: but this was not good for us. So everything that
18:39
Speaker 2: we end up leaving on the battlefield or whatever, the
18:42
Speaker 2: Chinese get to see so for instance, that Helo that
18:45
Speaker 2: was ended up when we took Bin Laden. The Chinese
18:49
Speaker 2: now have that.
18:52
Speaker 1: It's just crazy, it's so odd the way the world works.
18:54
Speaker 1: And again it's just China's vision. The entire vision is
18:57
Speaker 1: eventually world domination.
18:58
Speaker 3: We're just going to own it, all right, that they're
19:02
Speaker 3: going to rule everybody, and it's going to be really
19:05
Speaker 3: awful because Chinese talk about exterminating others, including they've talked
19:09
Speaker 3: about exterminating Americans.
19:12
Speaker 2: By the way, the way they talked about this in
19:13
Speaker 2: the beginning go ahead, they talked about this in the
19:15
Speaker 2: beginning of this century, and that puts the COVID nineteen
19:19
Speaker 2: epidemic into a different light.
19:23
Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang, Gordon g. Chang over on exco
19:25
Speaker 1: follow him right now, get the book called play Red.
19:28
Speaker 1: When we're looking at China, and again, for me, in
19:33
Speaker 1: my lifetime, I thought we had a better relationship. I
19:35
Speaker 1: thought Richard Nixon did something positive. I feel like you
19:38
Speaker 1: and I have talked about this before, and Nixon might
19:40
Speaker 1: have been more hurt than he was help. Did we
19:43
Speaker 1: ever have a relationship post World War Two with China
19:46
Speaker 1: that was better than it is now?
19:49
Speaker 2: Well, certainly, you know the Nixon's relationship with Malzadona's controversial.
19:55
Speaker 2: But we've got to remember this was a time when
19:57
Speaker 2: Nixon and Kissinger thought that we would have to live
20:00
Speaker 2: with the Soviet Union forever, right, and Nixon thought that
20:03
Speaker 2: if he enlisted communist China that we could actually prevail
20:07
Speaker 2: in the Cold War, which is eventually what we did.
20:09
Speaker 2: It was two against one at the end. Now it
20:13
Speaker 2: is a very long conversation about whether this was a
20:16
Speaker 2: good idea in the long term. Nixon had doubts about
20:19
Speaker 2: it in the later years. But the point is it
20:23
Speaker 2: was defensible then. But what was not defensible, Joe, is
20:27
Speaker 2: that after Tineman at George H. W. Bush decided to
20:32
Speaker 2: secretly back the Communist Party, and that was the time
20:35
Speaker 2: we did not need China. That was a time when
20:38
Speaker 2: it was just disgraceful what we did, and is a
20:41
Speaker 2: time that has I think stained American relations with China,
20:45
Speaker 2: and it has not been in our interests. So that's
20:49
Speaker 2: a very different story.
20:52
Speaker 1: Can we become friends with them again or no way
20:54
Speaker 1: under this kind of.
20:55
Speaker 2: Leadership, Under this leadership, no way, Because the Communist Party
21:00
Speaker 2: believes it is in an existential struggle with the United States,
21:04
Speaker 2: and Joe, it's not because of anything we say or do,
21:07
Speaker 2: but it's because of who we are. You have an
21:09
Speaker 2: insecure regime in Beijing is worried about the inspirational impact
21:13
Speaker 2: of America's values and form of governance on the Chinese people.
21:17
Speaker 2: So we will never have amicable relations with China as
21:20
Speaker 2: long as the Communist Party rules it, which is the
21:23
Speaker 2: reason why the Communist Party declared a quote people's war
21:26
Speaker 2: on us in May twenty nineteen, and they've defined that
21:30
Speaker 2: helpfully for us as quote total war. Remember, these guys
21:35
Speaker 2: are fighting unrestricted warfare. That comes from a title of
21:39
Speaker 2: a book in nineteen ninety nine. In that book, two
21:42
Speaker 2: Chinese Air Force colonels talk about Bin Laden, whom China
21:45
Speaker 2: supported at the time, hitting the United States. We need
21:49
Speaker 2: to have an honest conversation of China's role in ben
21:53
Speaker 2: Laden's attack on us, and we have not had that
21:56
Speaker 2: at the national level.
21:58
Speaker 1: Is the leadership of China's I'm so unsure of itself
22:01
Speaker 1: that it sees Venezuela and the leader they're taken out.
22:04
Speaker 1: It sees Iran and the ninety two million people might
22:06
Speaker 1: get their country back, and maybe the Shaw's sun comes
22:09
Speaker 1: in on an interim basis and runs it and the theocracy
22:12
Speaker 1: is gone. Are they so unsure? Because you and I
22:14
Speaker 1: have talked about this a lot. It's like the leader's
22:17
Speaker 1: always looking over his shoulder. Is he going to last
22:19
Speaker 1: or not? Are they afraid that the people can rise up?
22:22
Speaker 1: If they see people rising up elsewhere?
22:25
Speaker 2: They are always extremely concerned about their own safety and
22:31
Speaker 2: the security and the continuation of their regime. Whenever people
22:35
Speaker 2: elsewhere overthrow their government, whether we're talking about the fall
22:38
Speaker 2: the Berlin Wall, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the
22:42
Speaker 2: Jasmine revolutions, you know, just all of these have made
22:46
Speaker 2: the Chinese leaders even more insecure than they normally are.
22:51
Speaker 1: It is Gordon g Chang over on ex go get
22:53
Speaker 1: his book. It's called Playing Red. It's Gordon Cheng. I
22:55
Speaker 1: really appreciate the time of the access. You mentioned Tim
22:57
Speaker 1: and Square a little while ago, and I know that
22:59
Speaker 1: you know that I talk to my daughter from China
23:02
Speaker 1: when I went to China, and I googled Tea and
23:04
Speaker 1: Him in Square just to find out what they're telling
23:05
Speaker 1: the people of China. It said one guy died. Unfortunately
23:09
Speaker 1: it was an accident, a ricochet bullet. I think you
23:11
Speaker 1: and I have talked about thousands of people who wanted
23:13
Speaker 1: freedom and liberty and just to have a voice were
23:15
Speaker 1: actually killed in that square that day. Why did we
23:17
Speaker 1: give the Chinese government cover? Was it George Herbert Walker
23:20
Speaker 1: Bush just being weak? Did he have a mission a
23:23
Speaker 1: plan as to why he would give them cover.
23:29
Speaker 2: The Bush family has always been very soft on China,
23:33
Speaker 2: and it's not just the dad, it's also the son.
23:37
Speaker 2: But George Herbert Walker Bush believe that the United States
23:43
Speaker 2: needed to stand behind the Communist Party, which is the
23:45
Speaker 2: reason why he sent Brent Scrocroft on that secret mission
23:49
Speaker 2: just a few months after Tenement to tell Dunkshall Ping,
23:52
Speaker 2: the paramount leader of the time, that the United States
23:56
Speaker 2: was going to have his back and that don't worry
23:58
Speaker 2: about anything we say in public, and we're not going
24:00
Speaker 2: to really enforce these sanctions. And it was one of
24:04
Speaker 2: the most disgraceful episodes in American foreign policy and also
24:10
Speaker 2: one I think the most disadvantageous to us. But it
24:13
Speaker 2: was a stain on the history of our country.
24:17
Speaker 1: Gordon, I mean, the Soviet Union was already falling in
24:19
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine in his first year. Because of Reagan's
24:22
Speaker 1: good work, the iron current was crumbling. Why back up?
24:26
Speaker 1: I almost understand it, Although I still morally weigh against it,
24:30
Speaker 1: I almost understand it. If the Soviet Union stands, you've
24:32
Speaker 1: got a so called friend or a companion in China,
24:35
Speaker 1: maybe you have a better chance of keeping the Soviet Union,
24:39
Speaker 1: you know, from doing even more greater bad things. But
24:42
Speaker 1: already the Soviet Union was falling. Why support the communist
24:45
Speaker 1: Chinese government? It was almost it was almost prime time
24:47
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine to let the people of China
24:50
Speaker 1: know it's okay to rise up? Well back you?
24:54
Speaker 2: Well it is. That was just the way that George
24:58
Speaker 2: Bush viewed the world. You know, remember he had that
25:00
Speaker 2: Chicken Kiev speech. Yes, it's just the way that he
25:05
Speaker 2: looked at the world and how it was going to progress.
25:08
Speaker 2: And I don't think it was defensible. So you're not
25:12
Speaker 2: going to get it. You're not going to get any
25:14
Speaker 2: kind words from me. I mean, I don't like what
25:16
Speaker 2: Nixon did in nineteen seventy two, but I understand it.
25:20
Speaker 2: It was defensible. It was a reasonable way of proceeding
25:24
Speaker 2: at the time. In nineteen eighty nine, after tenement, what
25:27
Speaker 2: Bush did was indefensible.
25:30
Speaker 1: Let me leave you with this and again it's Gordon Shang.
25:32
Speaker 1: We really appreciate the time and the access. As always
25:34
Speaker 1: Gordon playing red as the name of the book, going
25:35
Speaker 1: get it, Gordon g Chang overron X. Why hasn't China
25:39
Speaker 1: tried something with Taiwan yet and will it?
25:43
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great another great question, and a lot
25:46
Speaker 2: of people say, with the United States bogged down in
25:49
Speaker 2: Iran with using US using up our munitions, that this
25:53
Speaker 2: creates the perfect opportunity for Cijmping to take Taiwan. And
25:56
Speaker 2: it does. But the point is China's in no position
25:59
Speaker 2: to launch hostilities with an invasion of the main island
26:02
Speaker 2: of Taiwan. Sijimping has decimated the top of the Chinese
26:06
Speaker 2: military with his purges. We know that the Chinese weapons
26:10
Speaker 2: don't work very well. We saw that in Venezuela, We're
26:14
Speaker 2: now seeing it in Iran, and an invasion of Taiwan
26:19
Speaker 2: would be extremely unpopular with the Chinese people. So as
26:23
Speaker 2: a practical matter, Sijimping can't take advantage of it. Now.
26:27
Speaker 2: That's not to say that China is going to avoid
26:30
Speaker 2: war in the next months or years. They could blunder
26:33
Speaker 2: into war, especially with all these very provocative exercises and
26:39
Speaker 2: acts against their neighbors. But the point is that right now,
26:43
Speaker 2: China's not a capable doesn't have a capable military.
26:48
Speaker 1: For some reason, people think that we're on the hook
26:50
Speaker 1: for Ukraine, and if you actually read the memorandum, we're
26:53
Speaker 1: not on the hook. I think Obama sent them MRIs
26:55
Speaker 1: and blankets and pillows. He certainly didn't send over three
26:58
Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars worth of armament money. Are we on
27:01
Speaker 1: the hook at all? Do we have a promise with
27:03
Speaker 1: Taiwan that will defend them if China does something?
27:07
Speaker 2: We don't have a formal promise we have. We've done
27:11
Speaker 2: a number of things though, which have led to Taiwanese
27:14
Speaker 2: to believe that we will defend them. We are morally
27:19
Speaker 2: responsible for a lot of reasons, but more important, it's
27:23
Speaker 2: in our direct interest to defend Taiwan. Since the nineteen hundreds, sorry,
27:30
Speaker 2: since the eighteen hundreds, Taiwan has been part of our
27:33
Speaker 2: western defense perimeter. Today it is in the center of
27:37
Speaker 2: that perimeter where the East and South China seas meet.
27:40
Speaker 2: You can't defend Japan very well if Taiwan is in
27:44
Speaker 2: China's hands. After August twenty twenty one Biden's debacle in Afghanistan.
27:49
Speaker 2: Taiwan has become for many the test of American credibility
27:53
Speaker 2: and resolved. And at a time where China is just
27:56
Speaker 2: criticizes not only democracies but the whole concept democracy. We
28:01
Speaker 2: can't allow the Chinese to absorb any democracy, especially one
28:05
Speaker 2: is important as Taiwan. And then the answer the reason
28:09
Speaker 2: that many people talk about the silicon shield TSMC, a
28:13
Speaker 2: Taiwanese company, makes ninety two percent of the world's most
28:16
Speaker 2: sophisticated semiconductors. Yeah, we don't want that to fall into
28:20
Speaker 2: China's hands. So there are a ton of reasons why
28:24
Speaker 2: defending Taiwan is actually defending America. And it's in our
28:28
Speaker 2: interest to do it. Forget about moral responsibility anything else,
28:32
Speaker 2: It's in our interest.
28:33
Speaker 1: It's Gordon Shang Gordon, if you don't mind before I
28:35
Speaker 1: let you go, and I appreciate all the time. Today,
28:37
Speaker 1: could you explain how we're so contradictory in our policy
28:40
Speaker 1: towards China and Taiwan. You got Nancy Pelosi saying we
28:44
Speaker 1: believe in the one China policy. Well, at the same time,
28:47
Speaker 1: we believe that Taiwan has has the right to exist
28:51
Speaker 1: as a sovereign nation. How can we both be the
28:54
Speaker 1: both can't be true, can they. We're saying one China.
28:56
Speaker 1: That means that we agree with China that Taiwan is
28:58
Speaker 1: part of it.
29:00
Speaker 2: Well, our one China policy is very different from China's
29:04
Speaker 2: one China principle. Okay, Our one China policy is this.
29:08
Speaker 2: First of all, we recognize Communist Party as a legitimate
29:12
Speaker 2: government of China. We acknowledge, not in the sense of
29:16
Speaker 2: accept but we understand that Beijing takes the position that
29:20
Speaker 2: Taiwan is part of the People's Republic. We don't accept it.
29:24
Speaker 2: Our position is that the resolution of Taiwan's political status
29:28
Speaker 2: must be peaceful, it must be with the consent of
29:32
Speaker 2: the people in Taiwan. So yes, we can say, look,
29:37
Speaker 2: you know, the status of Taiwan is unresolved. It's got
29:40
Speaker 2: to be resolved peacefully, and we do not accept Beijing's
29:44
Speaker 2: notion that is part of the people's republic. So that's
29:47
Speaker 2: one of the most misunderstood American foreign policies.
29:51
Speaker 1: It's almost misunderstood because how they named it. If they
29:54
Speaker 1: would have called it something different, I think we all
29:56
Speaker 1: could have understood it. But I almost get the feeling
29:57
Speaker 1: that people like Pelosi like saying it to make people
30:00
Speaker 1: think that we do agree with them at the same
30:03
Speaker 1: time we don't, which both can't be true. I love
30:05
Speaker 1: how you just explained it though it's Gordon chang Go
30:07
Speaker 1: to Play Red. Get Playing Reddits's book. You can get
30:10
Speaker 1: it wherever you good books are are sold, and this
30:12
Speaker 1: is a great book, and go follow them. Gordon g
30:14
Speaker 1: Chang over on X Gordon. Always appreciate the time and
30:16
Speaker 1: the access, and thanks for being so easy to understand
30:19
Speaker 1: and how you explain what's going on over there.
30:21
Speaker 2: Thank you well, Thank you, Joe. I really appreciate the
30:25
Speaker 2: opportunity to chat with you. And yes, it's a pretty
30:28
Speaker 2: dangerous world, so stay safe.
30:30
Speaker 1: We will do so. Thank you very much, my friend.
30:32
Speaker 1: That's it for this one. We'll be back with another,
30:33
Speaker 1: Unshaken and Unafraid with Joe Pegs very soon. Make sure
30:36
Speaker 1: you subscribe.