Latest / Foul Territory / Zack Scott talks Manager carousel, Owner crapshoot theories, Opt-outs

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Zack Scott talks Manager carousel, Owner crapshoot theories, Opt-outs · Foul Territory

0:02
Speaker 1: Zach Scott is here, a former MLB executive, and you
0:06
Speaker 1: know what, Zach, I'm gonna let you do the intro
0:07
Speaker 1: because you know, I see you on TV. You've got
0:09
Speaker 1: a lot of action going on. I love catching your
0:12
Speaker 1: tweets explaining more about the game. But how do you
0:15
Speaker 1: introduce yourself when you're at a function these days?
0:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I definitely have been pursuing a lot of
0:22
Speaker 2: different paths, so you know, I focus right now on
0:25
Speaker 2: my business for Rings, which is evolving and has a
0:29
Speaker 2: lot of different paths. So it started as something where
0:31
Speaker 2: I consult for sports operations across all sports. I now
0:36
Speaker 2: do leadership executive coaching with individuals, launching some group programs
0:42
Speaker 2: for leadership for new and emerging leaders in sports and
0:45
Speaker 2: out of sports. And most recently, and what's been a
0:49
Speaker 2: lot of my focus lately has been I got into
0:51
Speaker 2: the representation side. I partner with a guy named Neil
0:54
Speaker 2: Glasberg who's been representing NHL coaches and executives for fifteen
0:58
Speaker 2: years very successfully, and he wanted to grow into the
1:01
Speaker 2: business the baseball side of things, because you know, as
1:05
Speaker 2: I've learned from talking to people, especially in other sports,
1:07
Speaker 2: executives and coaches are underrepresented, they don't have agents like
1:11
Speaker 2: they should in baseball, and so I think it's something
1:14
Speaker 2: Baseball has been behind in and I want to help.
1:16
Speaker 2: And I think I offer a different perspective than kind
1:19
Speaker 2: of someone from the typical player agent path because I've
1:22
Speaker 2: been in the front office. I've you know, if you're
1:24
Speaker 2: someone that's a candidate for one of these, you know,
1:27
Speaker 2: many managerial jobs I've I've interviewed over twenty people from
1:30
Speaker 2: managerial jobs design managerial processes. So I think I'm uniquely
1:34
Speaker 2: positioned to help people out to prepare for those things
1:37
Speaker 2: and hopefully get those opportunities, and similar with gms, I've
1:40
Speaker 2: probably helped people prepare for about a dozen interviews with
1:44
Speaker 2: different teams, and you know, most of the credit goes
1:46
Speaker 2: to them, but most of the people I helped over
1:48
Speaker 2: the years were either finalists or got those GM jobs.
1:51
Speaker 2: So I wanted to I'm always trying to help people
1:55
Speaker 2: in sports, especially, and that's one way that I think
1:58
Speaker 2: I can do it now with where it's kind of
2:00
Speaker 2: like a hybrid between an agent and an executive coach.
2:04
Speaker 3: All right, Well, that leads, you know perfectly to my question.
2:07
Speaker 3: First of all, of course, coaches and gms and everything
2:09
Speaker 3: are underrepresentative because Major League Baseball wants it that way
2:12
Speaker 3: because then they don't have to pay them as much
2:13
Speaker 3: as they should be worse. So of course guys are like, oh,
2:16
Speaker 3: I don't need an agent. If I get an agent,
2:18
Speaker 3: they might not hire me. Yeah, because teams listen. I
2:20
Speaker 3: don't know this, but I'm assuming teams have told guys
2:23
Speaker 3: before in the past if you hire an agent, you know,
2:25
Speaker 3: we might not do this because he's gonna ask for more.
2:27
Speaker 3: I mean, you know that firsthand. So I could be
2:30
Speaker 3: wrong on that, but I think that's probably happened to
2:31
Speaker 3: somebody in the past. But why you mentioned all the
2:34
Speaker 3: openings manager opening, manager opening, manager opening. There are hardly
2:38
Speaker 3: any GM openings. Did the owners not want to fire
2:41
Speaker 3: their GM? And how the heck did gms always sell
2:44
Speaker 3: their owners on oh, well, it's not my player. I
2:46
Speaker 3: need another five years. Oh wait, oh those four years
2:49
Speaker 3: but no, no, we have a new group coming I
2:50
Speaker 3: need to know or five more, Like how do gyms
2:52
Speaker 3: do it? I want to know because I know I'd
2:54
Speaker 3: love to be a gym. I can just keep selling
2:56
Speaker 3: an owner five more years, five more years, five more years,
2:58
Speaker 3: keep giving me a raise and keep doing whatever.
3:01
Speaker 2: Well, if you think about it, the GM is positioned
3:04
Speaker 2: better to have more interactions with the owner, right Like,
3:07
Speaker 2: that's the person the owner talks to the most. It's
3:09
Speaker 2: not the manager, it's not really anyone else in the organization.
3:13
Speaker 2: So you can that could lead to, you know, a
3:15
Speaker 2: negative relationship if you're not very good at your job
3:17
Speaker 2: as a GM. But you have so many opportunities. When
3:20
Speaker 2: I was with the Mets, I talked to Steve Cohen.
3:21
Speaker 2: Cohen almost every day, That's how he called me almost
3:24
Speaker 2: every morning before before you know, he needed to get
3:27
Speaker 2: to day trading on the market and so I knew
3:30
Speaker 2: that was how my day was going to start. So
3:31
Speaker 2: there were all these opportunities to have those conversations that
3:34
Speaker 2: managers just don't have. And you know, I do think
3:37
Speaker 2: though we've seen ten openings either in season or now
3:41
Speaker 2: at the end of the season, and that's a lot.
3:43
Speaker 2: I mean, that's I don't know if I can remember
3:45
Speaker 2: that many at one off season. But if you look
3:48
Speaker 2: at it, it's all if you look at it individually,
3:51
Speaker 2: it's like four of those guys walked away, well three
3:53
Speaker 2: of them walked away to maybe retire. One of them
3:55
Speaker 2: had health issues, two of them were GM and manager changes,
3:59
Speaker 2: so that six right there. So I think you're the
4:01
Speaker 2: ones that are really interesting are the ones that are
4:03
Speaker 2: based on performance. You know, you could say Buster Posey
4:06
Speaker 2: knew in a job, wasn't his manager that he hired,
4:08
Speaker 2: So I don't believe so it's, you know, he wants
4:11
Speaker 2: to have someone that's his guy and build that relationship.
4:14
Speaker 2: So that makes some sense. But Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Minnesota, obviously
4:17
Speaker 2: it's because they haven't performed, and I would think that,
4:21
Speaker 2: you know, it's probably not a good sign for some
4:24
Speaker 2: of those gms that it's typically the first domino to
4:27
Speaker 2: fall can be the manager. And I'll take Pittsburgh for example,
4:30
Speaker 2: because I worked with Ben Sherrington in the past, both
4:32
Speaker 2: in Boston and with Consulting in Pittsburgh, and you know,
4:35
Speaker 2: Ben someone that doesn't pass the buck generally. So I'm
4:38
Speaker 2: sure he did not want to make a change because
4:40
Speaker 2: he believes that, you know, he's very accountable and believes that,
4:44
Speaker 2: you know, if it doesn't work, then that's a big
4:46
Speaker 2: part of it is a failure on him, right that
4:48
Speaker 2: he hired this person and it's not working out. But
4:50
Speaker 2: he also recognizes sometimes it is time for a new voice.
4:53
Speaker 2: But then you see the president of the club come
4:56
Speaker 2: out and say, we got to make the playoffs next year.
4:58
Speaker 2: I mean, it almost came off as an ultimatum. So
5:01
Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately, like Ben maybe in the in the
5:04
Speaker 2: in the sites right, he may have a target on
5:05
Speaker 2: his back now that the manager's changing. So you know,
5:08
Speaker 2: I think it's all circumstantial. But yeah, you're right, it's
5:11
Speaker 2: a lot easier to put it on the manager, and
5:14
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes we see it that it's the manager first,
5:17
Speaker 2: and if you hire another person doesn't work out, all
5:20
Speaker 2: of a sudden, it becomes that bullseye on the GM's back.
5:24
Speaker 4: All right, all these managerial interviews, how are they differing
5:28
Speaker 4: from organization organization? You just said some teams underperformed, some
5:33
Speaker 4: teams are in a winning window. Now some teams probably
5:35
Speaker 4: don't really care if they ever win. From an ownership standpoint,
5:39
Speaker 4: how do these managerial openings, how do the interviews go
5:43
Speaker 4: and how do they differ?
5:47
Speaker 2: Well, you know, obviously I'm not inside the walls of
5:49
Speaker 2: all these interviews that go on, but I've been on
5:52
Speaker 2: the other side of them with not just it's been
5:54
Speaker 2: one organization that I was with with the Red Sox
5:56
Speaker 2: that we did all these different managerial hirings, but it
5:58
Speaker 2: was different. Gms often switch gms every four years, it
6:01
Speaker 2: seemed like, so I did get slightly different processes where
6:05
Speaker 2: they're valuing certain things, but it's a very intense process
6:09
Speaker 2: where there's a lot of questions. You typically have, you know,
6:13
Speaker 2: a lot a long script of questions that you want
6:16
Speaker 2: to ask in different areas and you just want to see,
6:18
Speaker 2: like what are their views, what is their vision for
6:20
Speaker 2: how they do things in certain ways, how do they
6:22
Speaker 2: want to build a staff, what kind of culture are
6:23
Speaker 2: they going to create in the clubhouse? How are they
6:27
Speaker 2: how do they think through things tactically? How do they
6:29
Speaker 2: use information in their process when they're making decisions, when
6:32
Speaker 2: they're making out the lineup? What tools do they want
6:34
Speaker 2: to help them make those decisions? What people do they want?
6:36
Speaker 2: In that conversation, you're really trying to gauge how this
6:39
Speaker 2: person would be in this role. It's just like any
6:41
Speaker 2: other job. What's their vision and how prepared are they
6:44
Speaker 2: are they showing you those traits that you want your
6:46
Speaker 2: managers and preparations a big one. I've done interviews where
6:49
Speaker 2: I was shocked at how unprepared certain candidates were for
6:52
Speaker 2: managerial interviews and clearly knew, like, this isn't going to
6:55
Speaker 2: go very far. You've got to be ready to have
6:57
Speaker 2: put a lot of thought into how you would be
6:59
Speaker 2: in that role, and how you'd run the clubhouse, how
7:03
Speaker 2: you'd want to do things, and what kind of support
7:05
Speaker 2: would you be looking for, and you know, what level
7:09
Speaker 2: of interaction is helpful to you from the front office,
7:12
Speaker 2: from your other coaches. I think it's a lot of
7:13
Speaker 2: those things that you want. I'm sure some gems go
7:16
Speaker 2: into it with, you know, preconceived notions about what they
7:20
Speaker 2: want out of their manager, and a lot of times
7:23
Speaker 2: I would recommend people just be themselves and do what
7:25
Speaker 2: they truly believe in. Is the candidate because and it
7:28
Speaker 2: may not be a fit and it's not a necessary,
7:30
Speaker 2: necessarily a personal thing with that candidate. It just might
7:32
Speaker 2: be we're not matching up, we're not aligned on kind
7:34
Speaker 2: of how we're viewing this role and how it would
7:36
Speaker 2: work on a day to day basis.
7:39
Speaker 3: Zach, I got to go back to what you said
7:40
Speaker 3: about the Pirates. Yes, they said they have to make
7:43
Speaker 3: the playoffs this year, but Ben Sherrington's been there for
7:46
Speaker 3: quite a while now, and he's been through different managers,
7:49
Speaker 3: and he's been through different waves of guys coming through,
7:53
Speaker 3: and I just wonder, you know, is he next like
7:56
Speaker 3: you said, I mean, because he he did have Shelton
7:59
Speaker 3: and now he's a Kelly, and I think he hired
8:02
Speaker 3: I don't know if he hired Shelton or whoever was
8:04
Speaker 3: before Shelton. He had too, so you know at what
8:06
Speaker 3: point And I'm not I'm just using ben Cherington because
8:09
Speaker 3: you brought him up, But how many managers do most
8:11
Speaker 3: gms and executives get before Hey, maybe you're the wrong
8:15
Speaker 3: person to choose this next guy in line?
8:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a fact, you know,
8:21
Speaker 2: a hard and fast rule to that, but I think
8:24
Speaker 2: it's it's dependent on those conversations. You know what, what
8:28
Speaker 2: have you articulated that you believe will work both in
8:31
Speaker 2: the short and long term for your organization. And they're
8:33
Speaker 2: a team. Sure, they have financial constraints. I do think
8:36
Speaker 2: every team you know has constraints that they can embrace
8:40
Speaker 2: and realize. Okay, if we're going to have you know,
8:42
Speaker 2: if you're Tampa and Cleveland, you have the similar constraints
8:45
Speaker 2: where we're going to be really aggressive and churning our
8:47
Speaker 2: roster as the approach that like Tampa takes, for example.
8:50
Speaker 2: But there's different approaches to handling that navigating that world
8:54
Speaker 2: given those constraints. So I think it's up to you know,
8:58
Speaker 2: what you set is kind of how we're gonna do things,
9:01
Speaker 2: and then how you execute that in those conversations you're
9:04
Speaker 2: having with the owner for them to say I still
9:06
Speaker 2: believe in this person, that they're gonna come through, that
9:08
Speaker 2: they're learning from the things that worked and didn't work,
9:10
Speaker 2: that they're adaptable in trying to take a different approach
9:13
Speaker 2: to get to where we want to be. And so
9:15
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of that. It's really about,
9:18
Speaker 2: you know, how things are going. Obviously we're a results
9:20
Speaker 2: driven world, and from our seats we're looking at from
9:22
Speaker 2: the outside looking in, you know, that's all we can judge.
9:25
Speaker 2: We don't know what conversations are going on, how someone
9:28
Speaker 2: goes about their work, and that's really for the people inside,
9:32
Speaker 2: like the owner, to judge is this gonna work? Do
9:34
Speaker 2: I believe in this person anymore going forward? And that's
9:37
Speaker 2: any GM. It's not specific to Ben. We're just using
9:39
Speaker 2: them as an example, but I think, yeah, they're not
9:41
Speaker 2: getting results. Why are they not getting results? Is it
9:43
Speaker 2: because decision makings poor? Is it because other things factoring in?
9:47
Speaker 2: Is it? Do they need more time?
9:49
Speaker 1: You know?
9:49
Speaker 2: They for the They've obviously produced a lot of really
9:51
Speaker 2: good pitching talent. I think for the first time in
9:54
Speaker 2: a while, they have really good position players in their
9:56
Speaker 2: minor leagues. But at some point you've got to see
9:58
Speaker 2: that turn into major league result. And you know, at
10:02
Speaker 2: this point for them, it's probably do well. Do we
10:04
Speaker 2: believe that we're positioned better to get those position players
10:07
Speaker 2: in the big leagues, have a more well rounded team
10:09
Speaker 2: and start really competing in that division.
10:13
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10:16
Speaker 1: opened a Ruby. We went big. They're doing hundred fifty
10:19
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10:20
Speaker 5: That was you know what the nerves got me. I
10:23
Speaker 5: think it was so exciting because the motion and waits
10:25
Speaker 5: about four or five seconds for the card to come up.
10:27
Speaker 5: Card that I got was over three hundred dollars a
10:30
Speaker 5: prospect from the Mariners, and for me, I love the card.
10:35
Speaker 5: I thought it was great. Guess what I sold it back? Yeah,
10:38
Speaker 5: and I got a little more money, and now I
10:40
Speaker 5: can go buy another one. You have to wait a
10:42
Speaker 5: couple of minutes afterwards. And this is the excitement, the
10:44
Speaker 5: whole thing. Put your money where your mouth is and
10:47
Speaker 5: have fun with Arena Club.
10:48
Speaker 1: You can see that big smile on todd Father's face.
10:50
Speaker 1: Lazarero Montes, who's supposed to be good. He's Baseball America
10:53
Speaker 1: top three, he's in the Mariners organization. But Todd Father
10:57
Speaker 1: sometimes thinks prospects or suspects going back to the well
11:01
Speaker 1: and we'll see what he gets next time. Use the
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Speaker 1: code foul foul at arenaclub dot com slash foul if
11:07
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11:08
Speaker 1: experience and get twenty percent off or twenty percent off
11:11
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11:13
Speaker 4: All right, I want to go to one of your
11:15
Speaker 4: tweets about Pete Alonzo. Very creative word word soup you
11:20
Speaker 4: gave us, but word salad. But you said, looks like
11:24
Speaker 4: it may be back with the Mets on a short
11:26
Speaker 4: term deal after he once again overplaced his hand in
11:29
Speaker 4: the market. Rinse and repeat, Alonzo, why do you think
11:35
Speaker 4: this will happened again? Because history says Boris has these
11:41
Speaker 4: guys that have done this, Blake Snow, Matt Chapman, and
11:45
Speaker 4: it's turned into a big deal, kind of a weird
11:48
Speaker 4: bigger deal, but eventually they get their cash. Why do
11:51
Speaker 4: you feel like it would be different for Pete?
11:54
Speaker 2: You know, obviously that's tongue in cheek with that whole tweet,
11:57
Speaker 2: but I do think there's a real risk mostly Scott Boris'
12:00
Speaker 2: clients of overplaying your hand because the formula with Scott
12:06
Speaker 2: is kind of always the same, right, It's it's asked
12:08
Speaker 2: for the moon, So you get people kind of off
12:11
Speaker 2: their maybe low ball vision of a player before they
12:14
Speaker 2: start really negotiating, and it works a lot at the
12:17
Speaker 2: aggregate level, right, the portfolio level portfolio of his players, right.
12:21
Speaker 2: So that's a good business model for me. He's been
12:23
Speaker 2: very successful, but in individual cases sometimes it doesn't fit.
12:27
Speaker 2: And I think with Pete in particular, he's in a
12:30
Speaker 2: better spot than he was a year ago in a
12:31
Speaker 2: lot of ways. Right, He had a much better year
12:33
Speaker 2: after showing two years of decline and people wondering is
12:35
Speaker 2: this going to be continuing? So he breaks that narrative,
12:38
Speaker 2: which is huge. He's you know, got a great career numbers,
12:43
Speaker 2: but he is a year older, he is in a
12:47
Speaker 2: position that, you know, for whatever reason, whether you agree
12:51
Speaker 2: with it or not, is valued differently. There. There isn't
12:54
Speaker 2: this long history, you know, Vla Guerrero just maybe changed that.
12:58
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that that was a lot
12:59
Speaker 2: of you known circumstances that worked in his favor, especially
13:02
Speaker 2: with Toronto really struggling to get people to take their
13:05
Speaker 2: money and so probably to result it in an overpay
13:08
Speaker 2: for a great player but not aligned with any other
13:13
Speaker 2: comparable players in market. So I think, you know, it's
13:16
Speaker 2: a good market for him because there's not a lot
13:18
Speaker 2: of talent on the market. There are some high end guys,
13:20
Speaker 2: but it thins out pretty quickly. But on the other
13:22
Speaker 2: side of that coin is that means there aren't a
13:25
Speaker 2: lot of teams that have as many holes if their
13:27
Speaker 2: players aren't becoming free agents. So it only takes two
13:30
Speaker 2: or three, you know, it doesn't take much to get
13:32
Speaker 2: the bidding up there. I just think that there's a
13:34
Speaker 2: real risk that if there's not an adjustment made based
13:37
Speaker 2: on the last time you did it, and then you
13:40
Speaker 2: risk having the same outcome now, like you pointed out,
13:44
Speaker 2: sometimes Scott has made that adjustment. So I think you know,
13:48
Speaker 2: part of it was that's what they're saying, what's out
13:50
Speaker 2: their public It doesn't necessarily reflect how they're approaching it
13:53
Speaker 2: internally on Scott's side, so it could change. But I
13:57
Speaker 2: do think he's the type of player that fits into
14:00
Speaker 2: this demographic of he's probably a DH for the future
14:03
Speaker 2: because he's not getting any younger and he's already you know,
14:07
Speaker 2: people look at metrics today and they see that he's
14:09
Speaker 2: at the bottom of you know, first base metrics. He
14:11
Speaker 2: does some things well, but he's not that mobile. There's
14:13
Speaker 2: other things he doesn't do well, and I think that
14:15
Speaker 2: there's a real risk that he's limited. And we've never really,
14:18
Speaker 2: we rarely see a great market for dhs. But you know,
14:21
Speaker 2: maybe he is that exception. Maybe he is that JD.
14:24
Speaker 2: Martinez that we signed to a large deal back, you know,
14:27
Speaker 2: several years ago in Boston.
14:28
Speaker 3: So well, you mentioned Pete, but Alex Bragman did the
14:33
Speaker 3: same thing, right, Cody Bellinger has done the same thing
14:35
Speaker 3: for a couple of years as a GM and a
14:37
Speaker 3: front office person. Do you just say, man, if we
14:39
Speaker 3: can just keep signing these guys to one year deals,
14:42
Speaker 3: it's great for us. I know every agent wants multi
14:45
Speaker 3: year deals. But man, they're you know, just front office.
14:47
Speaker 3: You're just thinking, oh, we'll just keep doing this one
14:50
Speaker 3: year at a time, and if they keep opting they
14:51
Speaker 3: have a great year, good they opt out. We try again.
14:54
Speaker 3: If they don't have a great year, we'll keep them.
14:55
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll get a better year of the second year.
14:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of the you know, today's gms are
15:00
Speaker 2: very risk averse, and that is a you know, the
15:03
Speaker 2: biggest way to kind of paralyze your club is to
15:06
Speaker 2: give out too many long term, big, you know, top
15:08
Speaker 2: of the market deals. It is an auction in free agency.
15:11
Speaker 2: So generally by definition you're you're usually the highest bidder,
15:15
Speaker 2: which means relative to the rest of the industry, you're
15:17
Speaker 2: overvaluing the player, right, So if you do too many
15:19
Speaker 2: of those and really hurt your flexibility, that's really the
15:21
Speaker 2: only way a big market team can can paralyze themselves
15:24
Speaker 2: and put themselves in a bad position long term. So
15:27
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of fear of that that
15:29
Speaker 2: a lot of general managers have. But the but the
15:31
Speaker 2: other side of it is if you don't bring in
15:34
Speaker 2: proven impact talent, you have another kind of risk. It
15:39
Speaker 2: maybe is more you know, something you can navigate more
15:41
Speaker 2: because it doesn't totally tye up your payroll, but it's
15:44
Speaker 2: still a risk that you're not good enough. So I
15:47
Speaker 2: could see teams taking a hybrid approach, like if I'm
15:49
Speaker 2: if I'm in you know, David Sterns's shoes, I'm looking
15:51
Speaker 2: at it as you know, maybe I go out and
15:53
Speaker 2: try to get you know, be aggressive early in the
15:56
Speaker 2: market and go get a first baseman that's a little
15:58
Speaker 2: better defender, a little bit more of a well rounded player,
16:00
Speaker 2: not the impact of Peter Alonzo offensively, and then I
16:03
Speaker 2: wait out Peed Alonzo and maybe he's in the mixed
16:06
Speaker 2: first base DH if the market comes back to us.
16:08
Speaker 2: Because that's the other thing with Scott is there's a
16:10
Speaker 2: timing issue a lot of the times. Unless it's like
16:13
Speaker 2: the Won Soto's of the world, the absolute top market
16:15
Speaker 2: that everyone's in, sometimes you have to wait a long time.
16:18
Speaker 2: We had to do that with Jad Martinez. We got
16:20
Speaker 2: aggressive with Mitch Moreland early on a good value deal
16:23
Speaker 2: and then focused our energy on Jad Martinez, which is
16:26
Speaker 2: risky that we put all our eggs in that one basket,
16:28
Speaker 2: but it ended up working out. We waited it out
16:30
Speaker 2: and we got it done.
16:32
Speaker 4: How our GM's going to handle this offseason knowing that
16:36
Speaker 4: most likely the lockout's coming. The lockout is looming, and
16:40
Speaker 4: teams don't know what contract statuses will look like. Are
16:45
Speaker 4: we going to see something on either end of the
16:47
Speaker 4: spectrum that's crazy because of this looming.
16:51
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that you see, you know, the way
16:53
Speaker 2: most teams and whenever I've been involved with the team
16:56
Speaker 2: during a time of financial uncertainty, which is been COVID,
17:01
Speaker 2: which has been the economy of eight nine kind of
17:05
Speaker 2: taking a hit in you know, the overall economy and
17:08
Speaker 2: owners getting cautious, they almost always go to a place
17:11
Speaker 2: of caution, even a big market team like the Red
17:13
Speaker 2: Sox where it was we don't know are people going
17:15
Speaker 2: to go to baseball games now that the economy is
17:18
Speaker 2: so tough that we're going to bounce back from this?
17:19
Speaker 2: Are we going to bounce back from COVID or people
17:22
Speaker 2: are going to be comfortable when it's time to come back.
17:23
Speaker 2: Are we going to bounce back from a lockout? I
17:26
Speaker 2: think those are real questions. So they may be fine
17:29
Speaker 2: giving out one two year deals, but hard to project
17:32
Speaker 2: what a contract, how a contract that's longer than that's
17:35
Speaker 2: going to impact them financially when they don't know the financials.
17:38
Speaker 2: We see the same thing with the teams that are
17:40
Speaker 2: affected by the uncertainty of where their local TV revenues
17:42
Speaker 2: are coming from from the RSN, you know, bankruptcy issue
17:45
Speaker 2: that happened, those teams tend to pull back on spending.
17:49
Speaker 2: I think other teams should look at it as an
17:51
Speaker 2: opportunity if you have money that it's like, Okay, maybe
17:53
Speaker 2: the market's going to be a little suppressed and there's
17:55
Speaker 2: an opportunity for us to get some deals because we
17:58
Speaker 2: have the ability to take a little bit more financial risk.
18:01
Speaker 2: So I think that that's the way I would always
18:03
Speaker 2: look at it from a big market team. Was you know,
18:06
Speaker 2: eight or nine is a good example because in Boston,
18:08
Speaker 2: we just tightened up. We didn't want to spend. We
18:10
Speaker 2: were afraid of not knowing how the economy was going
18:13
Speaker 2: to respond. Once it bounced back, we overcorrected, but over
18:18
Speaker 2: spending on guys like Carl Crawford, Data and Gonzales, and
18:20
Speaker 2: then we put on ourselves in a bad spot. But
18:22
Speaker 2: that was because well, we haven't spent money in a
18:24
Speaker 2: couple of years. Now, let's be aggressive. If we instead
18:26
Speaker 2: had been more aggressive during that when the rest of
18:28
Speaker 2: the league was cautious. We may have gotten some good
18:30
Speaker 2: deals and then not been in a market where everyone
18:33
Speaker 2: was ready to spend their money because the economy did
18:35
Speaker 2: bounce back.
18:37
Speaker 1: It's funny players are gonna be like, I'll backload my
18:40
Speaker 1: contract if it's a seven year deal right now, no problem.
18:44
Speaker 1: Last one for you, Zach, So, I wanted to ask
18:47
Speaker 1: you about a question that revolves around postseason trends and
18:51
Speaker 1: specifically on the NLCS. It's a two parter, but it
18:53
Speaker 1: revolves around the Dodgers and the Brewers. One is your
18:56
Speaker 1: take on if the Dodgers beating the Brewers and maybe
19:00
Speaker 1: and winning the World Series actually affects how small market
19:04
Speaker 1: owners are pissed off and fight even more maybe for
19:08
Speaker 1: a salary cap, which is quite obvious that they want one.
19:11
Speaker 1: The second part is how big market teams take this postseason,
19:15
Speaker 1: and I'll use the Mets as an example. They have
19:18
Speaker 1: somewhat publicly stated they don't want to go after these
19:20
Speaker 1: big horse long term contracts for starters, and then, oh,
19:24
Speaker 1: look at what the Dodgers are doing. The Mets could
19:27
Speaker 1: have bought up a rotation quite like that. So your
19:29
Speaker 1: take on that series and how it permeates through the
19:32
Speaker 1: rest of the industry.
19:34
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely think the people that, you know, the
19:37
Speaker 2: owners of teams that already aren't happy with the way
19:41
Speaker 2: it works, this system and that's currently in place, and
19:44
Speaker 2: they tend to be mid low market teams. Of course
19:47
Speaker 2: they're going to use it. Right. If the Dodgers winn
19:48
Speaker 2: is like, see this is not sustainable, no one else
19:51
Speaker 2: has a chance. But meanwhile we see a lot of
19:54
Speaker 2: other teams that normally aren't there in these final four teams.
19:57
Speaker 2: So I definitely think that's a possibility that that's kind
20:01
Speaker 2: of making them feel stronger in their argument and they
20:03
Speaker 2: dig in further. But the Dodters, to me, the lesson
20:07
Speaker 2: is that they do a lot of things really well,
20:10
Speaker 2: and so like you could go out and just outspend everybody,
20:13
Speaker 2: but then the puzzle pieces don't fit well together. They
20:16
Speaker 2: do a good job like they do. You know, they
20:18
Speaker 2: sign someone like Mookie Bets, who's a very selfless guy
20:20
Speaker 2: who was very fortunate to get to be around him
20:22
Speaker 2: and hear him talk to other players about hitting, and
20:24
Speaker 2: he's someone that most superstars aren't willing to go back
20:27
Speaker 2: to a position that quite honestly, he moved off of
20:29
Speaker 2: because he had the yips and the minors, So that's
20:33
Speaker 2: pretty amazing that he could go back all these years
20:34
Speaker 2: later and start playing shortstop. And that kind of selflessness
20:38
Speaker 2: and team first mentality is what they have. And they're
20:42
Speaker 2: usually more fundamentally sound than a lot of other teams,
20:44
Speaker 2: so I think that's part of the lesson. Sure they
20:46
Speaker 2: spend a lot, but before they spend a lot, they
20:48
Speaker 2: were always contending for world championship teams. They do a
20:51
Speaker 2: lot of things well, that's why they're a model organization,
20:54
Speaker 2: and I think in the case of the Mets, yeah,
20:56
Speaker 2: they got to be careful the Mets. If they go
20:58
Speaker 2: crazy spending this offseason or not, they're still going to
21:01
Speaker 2: have a huge payroll next year. It's just you know,
21:03
Speaker 2: obviously the Sodo signing and Lindor contract and other things,
21:06
Speaker 2: so they're already before you sign anybody, pretty high up
21:09
Speaker 2: there and spending. So I don't think they'll ever be
21:12
Speaker 2: accused of not spending a lot. But you know, once
21:15
Speaker 2: you start, like I said, before, you start adding big
21:17
Speaker 2: contracts like a Wan Soto on top of the lind
21:20
Speaker 2: Or contract. As he's getting deeper into his thirties, you
21:23
Speaker 2: start compounding your risk. And so I'm sure, you know,
21:26
Speaker 2: David Strains, coming from a small mid market, small market team,
21:29
Speaker 2: really is very aware of that that there is some risk.
21:33
Speaker 2: It is how METS teams of the past got in
21:35
Speaker 2: trouble by, you know, spending high dollars in the day.
21:39
Speaker 2: You know, obviously Bobby Bunia is the one that was
21:41
Speaker 2: always brot up because he's still getting paid and then
21:43
Speaker 2: getting paralyzed and unable to kind of get out of
21:45
Speaker 2: that and then having a long cycle of losing, and
21:47
Speaker 2: that's what they want to avoid. They want to, you know,
21:50
Speaker 2: have sustainable success like everyone does and compete year after year.
21:53
Speaker 2: So it's a sweet spot that they're going to try
21:55
Speaker 2: to find. But they're going to spend money no matter what,
21:57
Speaker 2: because they're already there.
22:00
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23:02
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23:05
Speaker 3: All right, So what I've heard you say, Zach is
23:08
Speaker 3: owners are averse to risk, okay. And by the way,
23:11
Speaker 3: I if the Dodgers win, I think it's more of
23:13
Speaker 3: an indictment on the other teams that you need to
23:15
Speaker 3: spend to win. So I totally disagree with people saying, oh,
23:18
Speaker 3: c the end of baseball if the Dodgers win. No,
23:20
Speaker 3: the owners that don't want to spend they're going to
23:22
Speaker 3: use it because they don't want to spend their money
23:24
Speaker 3: and they're happy making the revenue sharing and the Pittsburgh's
23:27
Speaker 3: and we know the teams we don't need to go
23:28
Speaker 3: through in the Rays and those teams, Okay, But What
23:31
Speaker 3: I don't understand is, and you've been in the front office,
23:33
Speaker 3: why do owners talk themselves out of signing good players.
23:36
Speaker 3: There are plenty of good players that can help you win,
23:39
Speaker 3: and I feel like we hear more about, well, we
23:41
Speaker 3: don't want to do this because the fifth year might
23:44
Speaker 3: hurt us. Yeah, but we might win two World Series
23:46
Speaker 3: in those first four years. That's what the That's the
23:49
Speaker 3: way I think the Dodgers look at it, and even
23:50
Speaker 3: the Phillies, even though they haven't won. Certain teams they
23:53
Speaker 3: look at it and say, we could win. Some owners
23:55
Speaker 3: are more positive, like we can do this, and some
23:57
Speaker 3: owners are more, oh, well, man, I don't want to
23:59
Speaker 3: have to spend that money we might not win. Is
24:01
Speaker 3: there a different mindset for different owners and how they
24:03
Speaker 3: go about just saying like, screw it, I'm going for
24:06
Speaker 3: like the I'll use Washington.
24:08
Speaker 2: Right.
24:08
Speaker 3: The Learners were like, screw We're going all in, and
24:10
Speaker 3: they won and it made it all worth And now
24:12
Speaker 3: it suck because it was during COVID and they didn't
24:13
Speaker 3: get to celebrate and do a lot of the stuff.
24:15
Speaker 3: But they've said, oh, screw it, we're gonna win. Right.
24:17
Speaker 3: The Illa just tried in Detroit and it didn't work out.
24:19
Speaker 3: They got to the World Series, never won. But are
24:21
Speaker 3: there different owners that are just more like looking for
24:24
Speaker 3: reasons not the signed players.
24:27
Speaker 2: I think, like any human being, we tend to be
24:30
Speaker 2: wired towards the negative, thinking of the negative, what's the
24:33
Speaker 2: downside risk without giving enough weight on the upside, right,
24:37
Speaker 2: And so I think sometimes what you mentioned Detroit, you know,
24:40
Speaker 2: similar person and situation in Boston when we won in
24:43
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, right Like, we had a great young core,
24:45
Speaker 2: so we decided to be really aggressive and spending to
24:48
Speaker 2: support that core so we could go for it. And
24:50
Speaker 2: on the other end of that, yeah, there's risk that
24:52
Speaker 2: you you know, maybe you go too far and you
24:55
Speaker 2: have to kind of wear it for a few years
24:57
Speaker 2: before you're back to where you want to be. It
24:59
Speaker 2: is art to sustain success beyond a five year window,
25:02
Speaker 2: it really is. So I think there's that part of
25:04
Speaker 2: it where you get reactionary depending on where you're at,
25:07
Speaker 2: and you get a little emotional. These guys you know,
25:10
Speaker 2: been around them, they can be emotional, even when some
25:12
Speaker 2: of them seem like they're not those types of people.
25:14
Speaker 2: So I think that's part of it. But I also
25:16
Speaker 2: think the changes to you know the rules that playoff,
25:20
Speaker 2: it's easier to get in the playoffs, like you can
25:22
Speaker 2: be close to a five hundred team and get in
25:24
Speaker 2: the playoffs. It almost creates, you know, with with parity
25:27
Speaker 2: or more opportunity, creates less urgency for people to go
25:33
Speaker 2: for it, whatever that may mean to different clubs, because
25:35
Speaker 2: we may be able to sneak in and then get
25:37
Speaker 2: hot and win a World Series. They almost some of
25:40
Speaker 2: these guys think it's almost very arbitrary who's winning. I
25:43
Speaker 2: think it's actually good for a team like the Dodgers
25:45
Speaker 2: to win. To say, no, it's not like you can
25:49
Speaker 2: build a better team if you start convincing yourself like, oh,
25:52
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter. It's all kind of random, which
25:54
Speaker 2: I've heard on the record. Some owners say that John
25:56
Speaker 2: Henry said that not that long ago, and to me,
25:59
Speaker 2: it's like, well, that's that's not accurate, and that's not
26:02
Speaker 2: how we operated when we did win in Boston. So
26:06
Speaker 2: I do think when you start trying to water things
26:09
Speaker 2: down a little bit, you don't have kind of the
26:10
Speaker 2: super teams that that you may have had in the
26:12
Speaker 2: past during like Yankee Dynasties and other teams that were
26:15
Speaker 2: like really separating themselves from other other clubs. That's kind
26:20
Speaker 2: of what happens, is you get if you look at
26:22
Speaker 2: it's like, besides the Dodgers, there's you know, Toronto, Seattle
26:24
Speaker 2: teams we don't usually see. You know, Milwaukee's going deeper
26:27
Speaker 2: than they often do. So I think it's easy to
26:31
Speaker 2: look at that and say, look at those three teams
26:33
Speaker 2: and focus on and be like, oh, you know, we
26:34
Speaker 2: don't need to we don't need to to you know,
26:37
Speaker 2: go crazy. It's just kind of going to change all
26:39
Speaker 2: the time. Who's in there. So, you know, Texas and
26:41
Speaker 2: our Arizona being in the World Series a few years ago,
26:43
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago. I think that's. Unfortunately, what
26:46
Speaker 2: happens is it starts disincentivizing people being more aggressive.
26:51
Speaker 1: Spot on, great answer, really really on the same page
26:55
Speaker 1: on that one, Zach, Yeah, Oh it's a crap shot.
26:57
Speaker 5: Everything's crap.
26:58
Speaker 1: No, it's not. Come on, if you want the game
27:00
Speaker 1: every day, you know that's not true at all. And
27:02
Speaker 1: you can build for the regular season, build a little
27:04
Speaker 1: bit differently for the postseason with your plans, which I
27:06
Speaker 1: think the Dodgers do well. We can talk for hours.
27:09
Speaker 1: I know, you gotta jump we gotta jump, but great
27:11
Speaker 1: to have you on. We always enjoy this. Give Zach
27:14
Speaker 1: follow at Zack Scott Sports to see everything going on
27:17
Speaker 1: in his world. And I hope you get those salaries
27:19
Speaker 1: raised for the coaches and the gyms. I'm all about it.
27:21
Speaker 1: Thank you, Zach.
27:22
Speaker 2: That's right. Thanks guys, appreciate it.
27:24
Speaker 1: Hey, look at this tweet from Barry Bloom over at Sportco.
27:28
Speaker 1: He said, every team in baseball can afford to do this. Hell,
27:31
Speaker 1: the A's and Rays pockets seventy million in revenue sharing
27:33
Speaker 1: every season. He's talking about big signings. Most owners don't
27:36
Speaker 1: want to be competitive.
27:36
Speaker 3: Some do.
27:37
Speaker 1: When fans try to hold their feet to the fire
27:38
Speaker 1: and boycott games, they lose the team. Like Oakland, he's
27:43
Speaker 1: a senior writer over Asportico. They know what teams are
27:47
Speaker 1: making and they are holding them accountable. But it's not
27:50
Speaker 1: like anything necessarily happens. I know we talk about this
27:53
Speaker 1: a lot in the offseason, but it is a real thing.
27:57
Speaker 3: Let me ask you all this, when a team makes
27:59
Speaker 3: the playoffs, how much money do you think a team
28:01
Speaker 3: makes for a home game. I don't know. I've asked this,
28:06
Speaker 3: and it's not publicly. It's not given out to the public, right,
28:09
Speaker 3: which I don't understand. Why can't we find out We
28:12
Speaker 3: can find out how much revenue a team generates, but
28:14
Speaker 3: how can we not find out per game how much
28:16
Speaker 3: a team in the Major League Baseball max? I mean,
28:18
Speaker 3: I'm thinking it's got to be five to ten million
28:22
Speaker 3: at least, if not more. I mean, I'm just looking
28:24
Speaker 3: at ticket sales. I know what tickets cost, parking concessions.
28:27
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm just going low here. Let's say they
28:29
Speaker 3: make twenty million per playoff home game, So that means
28:32
Speaker 3: the Mariners this year have made they're going to make
28:34
Speaker 3: at least one hundred and fifty to one hundred million
28:38
Speaker 3: extra dollars because they made it to the second round.
28:42
Speaker 1: I'm just ty has a safe number, and we're going
28:44
Speaker 1: to go with that since they won't make it public.
28:46
Speaker 1: Twenty is a safe number. Just keep in mind that
28:48
Speaker 1: some of that goes to players, a chunk of that
28:51
Speaker 1: goes to the league and other owners and all that, Right,
28:53
Speaker 1: So there's some splitting that goes on. So let's say
28:55
Speaker 1: even that they pocket ten per playoff game. Because also
28:58
Speaker 1: there's merch that you can count. There's all kinds of things.
29:01
Speaker 1: Let's say it's ten per playoff game. It's a lot,
29:03
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Hey, Jed Hoyer spoke as he
29:08
Speaker 1: addressed the rest of the Cubs twenty twenty five, I'm
29:11
Speaker 1: confident we're gonna have enough money to field a good team.
29:14
Speaker 1: Talking about twenty twenty six. According to spot Track, Cubs
29:16
Speaker 1: total payroll allegation this season allocation was two eleven mil,
29:20
Speaker 1: tenth in baseball. We obviously get some fans aj that
29:25
Speaker 1: say we're a Cub hater show because you love them
29:29
Speaker 1: so much, and that is fair on your side. I
29:31
Speaker 1: actually think I give them a good chunk of credit,
29:33
Speaker 1: and I give Jed Hoyer credit this year for working
29:35
Speaker 1: with what he was given. But they're not operating like
29:38
Speaker 1: a big market team. They operate more like a bigger
29:41
Speaker 1: mid market team.
29:43
Speaker 3: No, they operate like a team that isn't the Cubs
29:46
Speaker 3: is what they operate like. And by the way, Han Perdido,
29:49
Speaker 3: Cub fans, Han Perdido, Okay, that's my new sling every
29:52
Speaker 3: time anyone pisses me off on Perdido. But here's my thing.
29:55
Speaker 3: You're the Cubs. You sell out every single game, you
29:59
Speaker 3: have your own TV network, you have the whole area
30:01
Speaker 3: around Wrigley that you own. You are making so much
30:04
Speaker 3: damn money, and then your GM has to come out
30:07
Speaker 3: and say, we hope we have the money to field
30:10
Speaker 3: a good team. What are you talking about? Well, this
30:14
Speaker 3: shouldn't even be a thing. Again, this goes back to
30:16
Speaker 3: my point. There's owners that want to win and there's
30:18
Speaker 3: owners that just want to cash checks. Right, the Rickets
30:20
Speaker 3: won twenty sixteen EMUs CATOOLI. Okay, if you don't know
30:24
Speaker 3: what that means, look it up cup fans because it
30:26
Speaker 3: because they had to take the sign down because it
30:28
Speaker 3: hurts your feelings too bad.
30:29
Speaker 4: Okay, but listen, they're.
30:31
Speaker 3: Making enough money they can spend whatever they want. They
30:33
Speaker 3: just don't want to because the Rickets they want to
30:35
Speaker 3: make money and they're making a killing