Latest / Founder Mode / Founder Mode Live at San Francisco Tech Week with Max Mullen (Instacart) & Andrew Ofstad (Airtable)

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Founder Mode Live at San Francisco Tech Week with Max Mullen (Instacart) & Andrew Ofstad (Airtable) · Founder Mode

0:00
I'll start by saying you don't even have to be a believer in AI
0:04
to care about this if you're running a company because at the
0:07
end of the day, your customers are also consumers and they are
0:11
using ChatGPT, Gemini and all the other, you know, AI
0:17
assistants that are, that are out there.
0:19
And so they're getting used to having these magical
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experiences. So it's becoming actually just
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table stakes for you to have these kind of magical
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experiences in your product too. So that's one way we think about
0:28
it. And then I think you just
0:29
alluded to it, but you know, couple days ago Open AI, you
0:32
know, announced some of their endeavors in terms of making
0:36
more of an app platform. I think others will follow.
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And I think we look at it as an opportunity to reach users as
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well, you know, and to grow. So you want to be early on these
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sort of platforms. I mean, think about the, you
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know, the push with mobile apps, which you are pioneer of, right?
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You want to have like the great app early on the App Store and
0:56
have the first users. This is founder mode.
1:15
I'm Jason Chaftin. Kevin Henrickson.
1:17
And we're gonna get started. So you are probably here not to
1:20
see us, but to see these two guys that are coming out.
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So, Kevin, why don't you introduce our our first guest?
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So our first guest is Max Max Mullen, founder of Instacart, Co
1:31
founder of Instacart. It's funny because this Co
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founder thing is funny because like JJ is my Co founder.
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He sits back there and whenever I put founder, he always goes
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the first edit he makes is Co dash and I'm like bro, like I
1:42
can be the founder. He's like no, no, you're the Co
1:44
founder. Yeah, you're a Co founder.
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So it always makes me like feel a little smaller when I see that
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in Google Apps. Like I see the little edit but.
1:50
Well, Max Max is well. That's the real founder, yeah.
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Founder of Instacart, Co founder of Instacart.
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And you know, I got to know him a bunch and I worked at
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Instacart and so excited to have him here today and then.
2:00
Here we have Andrew who is Co founder of Air Table and and is
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also, you know, OGSF tech scene. So we are very, very lucky to
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have these two gentlemen here who built two companies that
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have really shaped how we all live and work.
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One has changed how we got groceries and the other changes
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how we do business. And forget Excel, you need
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airtable. Come on in guys, let's go.
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So it's cozy. Nobody, nobody has said anything
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but there we we drove this in here today and we thought this
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would be a nice way to set the vibe.
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What do you guys think? Is it working?
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I was in a meeting in that room and then I you're good.
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And then I got out of the meeting and there was a cyber
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truck in here. Yeah.
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I'm like, what happened? So it's funny, like last night
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he was showing me the pictures of the space because I hadn't
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actually been here, which is embarrassing to say, but I saw
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this door and I was like, is that a garage door?
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And he's like, yeah. And I was like, can you guys
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back the truck in and just park the truck and we'll do the
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podcast in the back of the truck and he's like.
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Yeah, Kevin wanted us to be in the truck bed.
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And he's like, that's not going to.
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Work. I don't.
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Think Max is going to let us bring it in?
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And I was like, well, just ask them when you get here.
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And then they got it in. Max is a nice guy.
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You guys are very persuasive. This guy especially I like.
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It I like it, I like. It so so guys, let's just let's
3:25
just rock'n'roll into this. You both have started these
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formative, really important companies in SF tech, one of
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which is now publicly traded. So congratulations on an IPO Max
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and Air table. Hopefully we'll see that in the
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future, Andrew. So let's let's maybe get into
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like origin stories. Do you guys want to share the
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the beginning? There's some crazy stories I
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know you've experienced from your early Instacart days, but I
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think there's one story in particular that you wanted Max
3:53
to tell him this if he's able to.
3:54
Yeah, I, I wanted to know about there was like a Trader Joe's
3:57
thing, like I always like, my wife and I were like, why can't
3:59
we get groceries on Trader Joe's?
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And I was like, no, there's a story behind it, but there's
4:03
even a crazier story of what? That was the first store on
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Instacart if I'm not mistaken. The famous, the famous Trader
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Joe's story. Yeah.
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So you're right, Kevin, of course, and we tell this story,
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I tell the story every Monday in orientation to this day.
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But in the very early days of Instacart, we did not have any
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partnerships with any retailers because we were very brand new
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and a grocery e-commerce. It was pretty nascent.
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And so a lot of retailers weren't even thinking about it
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yet. And we, we, we were launched, we
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had some early users in San Francisco and a lot of the
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groceries came from a local conventional store, but we
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didn't talk about which store. And we would pull our users and
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they would tell us, you know what, I really love shopping at
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Trader Joe's. And we would say, well, you
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know, that's like not what's on our platform.
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It's sort of these other items, you know, can you see if you can
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find, you know, a substitution for those, for those favorite
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items? And they would say, no, I got to
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have those, the specific cookies from Trader Joe's, right?
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So said if there's a lot of users that won't use Instacart
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unless their favorite retailer is on our platform, we better go
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figure out how to partner with those retailers.
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But of course, in the early days, you know, it was very hard
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to strike partnerships with retailers who weren't thinking
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about grocery e-commerce and, and particularly like, you know,
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who maybe wouldn't want to partner with a very small early,
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early startup. And so one day I went into the
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Trader Joe's and start talking to the manager and was sort of
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asking, you know, do you have a list of everything that you
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sell? Could you just sort of give us
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your catalog, right? And then we'll put it online,
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right? And we'll, and we'll like, we
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have this little start up and we'll try to deliver the, you
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know, your items to people and we'll help your store and we'll
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help our our company. And they were like, listen, we
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don't have a list. First of all, I was like, how do
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you not have a list, right? When you scan, the item
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obviously rings up on the registers and somebody's got.
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Literally the billion dollar question.
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But they truly didn't have a list, right?
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And certainly not one that they, that they had that they were
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going to give us. So I said, well, what if we,
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what if we went into the stores and just sort of started writing
6:00
things down and taking pictures? Like how many pictures would we
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have to take kind of surreptitiously in order to
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build our own catalog? And the first thing we tried was
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like taking the pictures. And they didn't really like
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that. And it was really actually hard
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to get good quality pictures. Second thing we tried was we
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just asked them, you know, hey, could we, could we set up in the
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corner of your storage? So like a little photo studio
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and we'll just like take things gently off the shelf and put it
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over there and take a picture and bring it back.
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And like no one will even know we were there.
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Also a no. Absolutely not.
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I tried it at a different store. You know the following tactic is
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I'm a student doing a project. This student thing always works.
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I'm just a student of the. Game I'm, you know, I'm doing
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research in the grocery industry.
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And they were like, sorry, for competitive reasons, you can't
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do research in our stores. So he tried all these different
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things, got kicked out of all these different Trader Joe's
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stores and eventually went back to the original store, which is
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on Franklin Street in San Francisco.
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And we talked to the manager and we said, listen, we're doing
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this this thing. We're trying to build a catalog
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of everything that you sell in your store.
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And we would be willing to like, buy one of everything in the
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whole store to do it. And he was like, well, you know,
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that's interesting. And if and if you want to do
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that, you can do that. But don't get in the way of
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regular customers. How dare.
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You buy everything in the store and get in the way.
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And I was thinking like, I'm about to spend $20,000 in your
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store, like you should be super happy.
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But I was like, no, of course we won't get in the way of regular.
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What's the best way to do that? And he said, we'll come early in
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the day on a Thursday, which was the next day, and we'll kind of
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like open a checkout lane just for you guys.
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And I was like, perfect, we'll be back tomorrow morning on
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Thursday. So I grabbed a bunch of people.
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We came back the next day and we bought one of every single thing
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in the entire. Store it's.
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Around $20,000. There's, there's 3000 items in a
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Trader Joe's. We bought 2700 of them.
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We didn't buy the alcohol and I didn't buy any of the
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supplements. You know, there's like all these
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supplements in a Trader Joe's, like a million, a million
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different supplements of all kinds of crazy things, you know,
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and, and I was like, nobody buys those Now I'm old and I buy
7:55
those supplements, right. So we didn't buy this and, and
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2700 items. There's a lot of items.
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It turns out, you know, your, your grocery bag from Trader
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Joe's or any store, you might buy 15 things on average and it
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might occupy 2 grocery bags. OK, so now multiply that by, you
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know, 200 and it's a lot of trips.
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And so we we were back and forth buying stuff from the Trader
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Joe's for three days until we got to the.
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How'd you fit all that stuff in that tiny tray?
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They pull out, you know, the red tiny tray.
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The tiny tray. There was a lot, a lot, a lot of
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grocery bags I've never seen. You know, you, you you never
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seen your trunk. How many grocery?
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Bags. You had a cyber truck to move it
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all. Yeah, I know.
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Well, this is in 2012. This is in December 2012.
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Barely Model S. And so we're, we're stuffing
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Trader Joe's bags in the back of a Corolla and other, other
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vehicles. Yeah, yeah.
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And, and driving them over to this photo studio that we
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rented. And the, the person who took,
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who had the photo studio. And, you know, we borrowed from
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him. We were like, how do we take
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good product photography? And he's like, oh, you have to
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set it up perfectly. It's going to take you like 20
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to 30 minutes to set up each shot.
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Then you can take the picture. You take a whole bunch of
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pictures. And we're like, that's like
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definitely not fast enough. We need to get to like 30
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seconds of picture. And so we're just slinging
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groceries into this, into this, that white background, getting
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the flash all sorted out. And it took us three days to
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take the photos. And we sent them to some people
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to cut them out on a white background, right, So they could
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be perfect and, and, you know, adjust the colors and
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everything. And we typed up all the names of
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all the groceries and all the prices and, and you know, the
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locations in the store where we found them.
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We had kind of created our own little Dewey Decimal system of
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Trader Joe's, you know, like this shelf, this aisle, this
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height and all this stuff. And a couple weeks later we
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launched a version of Instacart that had a drop down menu where
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you could select between different retailers and Trader
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Joe's was, was listed there. And people really, really love
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that, right? They love seeing the name of the
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store that they could shop from. They love seeing the full
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catalog of their favorite retailer with beautiful photos.
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And we learned an incredible lesson in that moment, which is
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that many lessons actually. You know, people have a strong
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loyalty toward the grocery store that they normally shop at.
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People shop at more than one grocery store, and they want to
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see all their favorite stores listed in the same place, right?
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So a marketplace model was the right model.
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When I load up my cart on Instacart, I've got multiple
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stores, my shoppers hitting, you know, we're trying to get as
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much stuff as we can on that one trip.
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That's it's, it's got to be that way for me, you know, and I have
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loyalty to Costco. I get a big Costco Instacart
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order just queued up ready to go as soon as we're done here.
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So let's, let's get into it with Andrew this Max, I love the
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origin story. I want to hear Andrew from you
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on early air table days. You know, what was the kind of
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insight around the problem that you guys were solving?
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Right? You know, Max just talked about
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2700 different products and that sounds like a little bit of a
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database and a table. How many people in this room use
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Excel, Google Sheets? Just put one arm up for.
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Yeah, Sheets people. Yeah.
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But like, it's starting use Airtable, though.
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Yeah. Now do you use Airtable?
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Yeah, everybody. So that is, that is the, it's a
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much better version of that. And it's powering so much now.
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So we'd love to hear like, how did you guys get started?
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A perhaps a fun story of the early days of Airtable.
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My Co friend and I, we're both very into HCI and how do you
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take things that are really complex like a database software
11:12
creation and make those really easy for everybody?
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And I, I think part of that was born from just our love of being
11:18
builders and creating software. And also my Co founder, he was
11:22
at Salesforce, they acquired his previous company.
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He saw that most business software, it's just a database
11:28
and you have logic and views. It's kind of like reinventing
11:30
the same wheel every time you build a business application.
11:33
So the challenge of taking something that's really
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complicated, this class of software development for
11:38
businesses and making that really easy and simple and
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rounding off all the rough edges was really a big motivation for
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us. And I spent time before I Google
11:46
Maps working on the design and really simplifying that
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interface. So yeah, we we had this big
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vision for how we'd democratize software creation and let people
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build their own apps, specifically business apps
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around the database. And to your point, the entry
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point for us, like, you know, you kind of come to realize if
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you study the history computing that the spreadsheet was this,
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you know, really killer application, not just because it
12:10
is so useful, but it it really is programming.
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And all these people surreptitiously learn how to
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program by using a spreadsheet. And you start with these really
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simple primitives like cells, and then you kind of learn that
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you can write these formulas that reference them.
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And there are a lot of aspects to it, just the direct
12:25
manipulation and the very visible aspect of it is kind of
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like a what you see is what you get interface that we wanted to
12:30
replicate. So we Co opted that spreadsheet
12:33
interface and you know, kind of re use that to to make it easy
12:36
to build databases and just started building together.
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It took us a long time to get to an MVP and and get the product
12:43
out there. I think either because we were
12:46
not the fastest engineers, but also we were rounding off the
12:48
rough edges and prototyping and that type of thing.
12:50
So just kind of a product born from from the the vision to do
12:54
that and and love of kind of simplifying complex things.
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Andrew, how many people told you when you were fundraising for
13:00
your seed round? Like oh, Google Sheets will just
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add these features you don't you like have no chance here.
13:06
Oh yeah, we, we got that a lot. I, you know, I, I think we found
13:10
that there were two types of, of early customers.
13:13
Either people got it completely because they understood
13:16
databases or they kind of understood software in some form
13:19
and it clicked for them, or they were kind of Excel or
13:22
spreadsheet junkies and they were like, wait, why can't I
13:25
reference any cell here? What, you know, how is this
13:27
different than a spreadsheet? And so I think with that ladder
13:30
class, we definitely got the hey, this just excel or or
13:33
appear appear spreadsheet. But I think people that
13:36
understood software foundations kind of realized that it's a
13:39
strong foundation to build other things on top of.
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And definitely that was that was a common thing thing for us
13:45
early on. What about in those early days
13:47
like that, you guys shortcut it or took hacks on to kind of say
13:51
like, man, we we'd love to go build like the proper version of
13:53
this, but like we're like, hey, we don't have time or we need to
13:56
get something out. So when you think about that
13:58
MVP, like were there specific shortcuts that you sort of took
14:01
where you're like then, you know now?
14:02
Go fix it later, yeah? Came back and either fix them
14:05
or, or they're still kind of survived.
14:06
And that actually ended up being, you know, a smart sort of
14:09
like shortcut. First thing we wanted to de
14:11
risk, you sort of think of startups as a series of things
14:14
you're de risking. And for us, the first was can we
14:16
actually build something that is easy to use and as a database
14:19
and, and has the right UX to make this a much broadly a much
14:23
more broadly used product. And so for us, it was that was
14:27
the main thing we're trying to do.
14:28
So we, we had a purely front end, you know, lived in the
14:30
browser client product for a long time before we even built a
14:33
back end. And so all the prototyping kind
14:36
of getting the full feature set just in the browser using local
14:39
storage is kind of what we worked on initially.
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We were just building for ourselves.
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So it kind of worked as long as we had our laptops, we had our
14:46
air table application. Did that ever go?
14:48
Did you find when you finally kind of turned on real users,
14:50
you actually had a? Yeah, we actually had
14:51
persistence in the server and like a back end and stuff once
14:54
we had real users. But while we were kind of de
14:56
risking the UX side and prototyping and iterating really
14:59
fast, I think that let us build a lot faster.
15:01
And then we were like, oh man, we got to actually build like a
15:04
real product in the back end and and make this like a product
15:08
like production eyes, but initially which is purely front
15:11
end. There's a lot of founders in the
15:12
room and I think it's worth like double clicking on this.
15:16
Everybody thinks of Instacart as this product that has all of
15:18
these retailers and just really works, right.
15:20
I mean, when even when you join in 2018, we had, you know, we,
15:23
we were less mature. It wasn't that way at the
15:25
beginning, Max. Yeah, you're talking about AIR
15:27
table was like in local storage, that's like your whole product
15:30
is a database, Yeah, you know. Dropbox.
15:33
Just the table, no air. The the first version of Dropbox
15:37
would like would like lose your files.
15:38
Like the first shopper app for Instacart was a web page like a
15:42
web view. There was no app at all.
15:44
Like there's always hacks at the beginning.
15:47
Yeah, I mean it's, I think there's got to be a moment maybe
15:50
each of you could think of where you were like, oh, we're not
15:52
crazy like this is working. Was there like a because I
15:55
remember very distinctly when I started, I started a marketplace
15:57
company in 2014 in LA and I was working out of Koloft, which was
16:02
the first I think Instacart office was in that Co working
16:04
space. And I remember Instacart, who
16:06
are these guys? That was when I made my first
16:07
Instacart order because it was your second market.
16:09
And so I you know, when when did Instacart that kind of jump the
16:12
shark for you guys? And you're like, oh, this is a
16:13
real thing. It's we're not insane and it's
16:15
actually going to work. And I'd love to hear Andrew at
16:17
air table when that moment was as well.
16:19
Yeah. I mean, I think in Andrew's
16:20
framing, there's like a series of things you're de risking.
16:23
The first for Instacart was like, could we even build a one
16:26
hour grocery delivery product? Would it even work?
16:29
Would we be on time like, and we quickly prove that.
16:33
And then I think another objection we heard from
16:35
investors and, and thought about ourselves was like, is this a
16:37
product just for people in like the coasts in California and New
16:40
York or even just in, you know, big cities?
16:44
And it wasn't until 20/16/2017, 2018 kind of time frame when we
16:48
started to expand to, you know, all 50 states, a lot of, you
16:53
know, less large cities and then even some suburbs where we had a
16:58
lot of really regular people in America using the product every
17:01
single week. And then that's when we really
17:04
knew it was going to be a big. House was there like a city
17:05
where you're like, you always referenced it in meetings.
17:08
It was like the yeah, like if it's working here.
17:10
Then funny that you should ask, but you know, some investor at
17:14
one point just said, listen, you know, this is, this is great if
17:17
you're in San Francisco or New York, but like, you know, call
17:19
me when you have moms in Kansas using it.
17:21
And then one day I remember we hired an employee and and they
17:26
said, hey, my mom's a big fan of Instacart.
17:28
And they were. And I was like, where does your
17:29
mom live? And she was like Kansas.
17:30
And I said bro, we finally did it.
17:32
Did you call the investor? You've been unlocked.
17:34
Yeah, nice. What about your?
17:37
Kind of similar story. There's a series of these kind
17:39
of like, oh, this could be something I, I think the first
17:42
was we would start showing the product to our friends and like
17:45
I said before, 9 out of 10 be like, I don't really get this
17:47
kind of like a spreadsheet, but not really.
17:50
But we had a friend who is a he used to work at Pixar as a
17:54
engineer and he decided to strike out in his own and be a
17:57
like a video producer, like start doing film.
18:00
And he was shooting a music video and he showed me this,
18:03
this thing called shot Lister, which is a dedicated iPhone
18:07
application for tracking like your shot, your, your shots and
18:10
your crew and your cast. Like all the moving parts of the
18:13
film production were like, oh, that's cool.
18:15
He's like, man, I just wish I could add 1 field to track.
18:18
Like who checked out this piece of equipment?
18:20
And then we showed an air table like, Oh, this is amazing and I
18:22
can actually like build it and customize it.
18:25
And it had all the functionality from shout Lister, but it's
18:27
completely flexible. And so we saw that case and
18:30
then, you know, another early customer who is a friend of ours
18:32
ran a non profit and they were they were about to do big sales
18:36
force implementation and they they were saw it and they were
18:38
like, oh, I can just use air table.
18:39
This is amazing and I can customize it.
18:41
So a couple of those individual small team use cases or
18:44
individuals, and I think the one that really stuck for me later
18:48
on and more of like a large company like this could be a big
18:52
products context. Like where there's a lot of, you
18:55
know, kind of financial value to be had as well.
18:58
Is when I did a customer trip to New York and we were used to
19:01
talking to customers over chat or like support e-mail, that
19:04
type of thing, or even video calls.
19:06
But I went to visit, we work at the time and we work was on
19:09
this, you know, fast trajectory of growth.
19:12
And I went to their office and I looked in every computer screen
19:14
had air table on it. And I just thought to myself
19:16
like, oh shit, I hope the server doesn't go down.
19:19
Like people are actually using this.
19:22
It's amazing. So seeing a whole company use
19:23
it, or at least a whole big team was, was huge and really sticks
19:26
in my head. It's like a transformational.
19:28
Moment my my wife works for Disney and they're an air table
19:30
customer Oh yeah of course she's like oh she loves air table
19:32
she's. Awesome.
19:33
Yeah, so that's a pretty big logo.
19:34
Yeah, for sure. This is a big one, yeah.
19:36
How do you how do you think about, I mean, I think that's a
19:39
good kind of segue to like think about like this notion of speed
19:41
versus craft, right? Like you early talked about like
19:44
HDI and like how do we make it beautiful and perfect?
19:46
And then it's like, OK, now we start moving faster.
19:48
Like how did you sort of in those early days kind of pick
19:50
that balance between like move quick, get a bunch of things
19:53
landed versus like, no, I want to spend the time to kind of
19:55
sand it and Polish it? Yeah, I think we we went through
19:58
different phases of that. So there is the early prototype
20:00
phase, get the UX right, just write crappy code, throw stuff
20:03
out, you know, move really fast. And then at some point we're
20:06
like, we got to build this in a more robust way.
20:08
And once we got to that point, you wanted to get the
20:11
foundational architecture right, just because you're going to
20:13
build on top of that for a long time.
20:15
You can't like RIP stuff out of customers.
20:17
Like if they built a air table database app, you know, and you,
20:21
you remove a field type, it's like, hey, my thing just doesn't
20:24
work anymore. So we kind of went into more of
20:26
like a, you know, measure twice mode.
20:29
See, that's the Wi-Fi. Oh.
20:30
I shouldn't say that give. Everybody your Wi-Fi password
20:35
for. Workshop.
20:37
It's really it's. Really, not really not that big
20:39
of a deal. OK.
20:42
It's because it's one of my personal values.
20:43
Oh, OK, yeah, measure twice. So then we we had more of a
20:46
measure twice mood and I think we went too heavy on that for a
20:49
long time. It was like this get the perfect
20:50
architecture, kind of inventing from first principles things
20:54
around real time collaboration, which we kind of had to do
20:57
because in those days it wasn't as standard of a thing.
20:59
And you know, you have like Dropbox sync, but you didn't
21:01
really have a really complicated kind of like highly, you know,
21:06
high dependency tree database, you adapt to like sync in real
21:08
time. So we got really deep on like
21:11
the engineer and, you know, deep engineering measuring twice,
21:15
which slowed us down a lot. But I think it the pro of that
21:17
is we were able to hire good engineers because we had heart
21:19
problems and I think we could talk and tell you about them
21:23
because we struggled with them for quite a while.
21:25
So yeah, it really depends on any kind of go through modes
21:27
where it's build fast prototype, you're in kind of like a new
21:30
startup, building a new S group part of the product and that
21:34
type of thing. So for for us, it kind of went
21:36
back and forth a lot, but it was tough too because you kind of
21:39
build a culture around doing something in the measure twice,
21:42
go slow, be deliberate, cerebral way.
21:44
And then you have to change and you have to say we, we have to
21:47
prototype more. We have to get stuff out there.
21:48
We can always like pull it back and so on and so forth.
21:51
So we kind of struggled sometimes with the pendulum
21:54
shifting back and forth there. You mentioned culture and I want
21:56
to touch on that because Max, you're like you were one of
21:58
those people and you've written a lot about this and you talk a
22:01
lot about it. That really helped shape the
22:02
Instacart culture from you and your Co founders to a lot more
22:06
people now and even the culture and thinking about how you bring
22:09
in shoppers into that in that marketplace.
22:11
So love to hear your thoughts on taking culture from, you know,
22:14
three people in a room to thousands.
22:16
When I think about culture, the first thing that I talk about
22:18
and think about is, you know, values.
22:21
And typically a startup has values whether they're written
22:24
down or not. And if they're not written down,
22:26
they're just the sum of the personal values of the founders
22:29
of the company. And that's usually how it
22:30
starts. Like, you know, if, if you care
22:32
about craft and the company will care about craft.
22:35
And so those were sort of the early values of, of, of our
22:38
company. But then later on, you kind of
22:40
want to be a little bit more deliberate about your values,
22:42
want to write them down. And that's very useful when
22:44
you're hiring people, right? So you can tell them what, what
22:47
your values are and you can make sure they're going to be able to
22:49
live in, in that culture. And so we've had, you know,
22:52
different sets of values over the years.
22:54
And just to kind of bring it back to the, this idea of sort
22:57
of speed versus quality, like in the early days of Instacart and
23:01
in the early days of most companies, you know, most of the
23:03
companies that I invest in, speed is like a huge advantage,
23:06
right? You want to have like the
23:08
fastest cycle time you possibly can have, right?
23:10
Some people, you know, it's a month, it's a two weeks, it's a
23:13
week, it's a day. But like the, the faster, the
23:15
better, you know, if you're shipping stuff every hour and
23:17
learning stuff every hour, it compounds.
23:19
And so that was our, our, our operating mode, right?
23:22
When you join Kevin, like we were in speed mode and it was a
23:25
really big, it was woven into the culture at that point.
23:28
And then when we rewrote the value and we had a value called
23:30
every minute counts, right? Literally, you know, one of our
23:32
five values was every minute counts.
23:35
And then when we rewrote the values in 2021, as we were sort
23:38
of maturing, we realized we'd already achieved that value.
23:42
And so we had to kind of graduate it and move on to
23:45
values. That spoke more about how we're
23:47
going to balance things over the long term as a larger company.
23:50
So it's to Andrew's point is it's something that evolves and
23:54
it's it's something that you kind of want to be really
23:56
deliberate and thoughtful about and spend some time on.
23:58
It's an investment you know as a founder, writing values and and
24:01
thinking about your culture is an investment in in the future
24:04
of your company. For Andrew, for you guys, kind
24:07
of similar culture question, but maybe take it a step farther.
24:09
When you think of that culture moving from like the founders to
24:12
like hiring your first execs, like we kind of before the short
24:14
time, like how does a company change as you start bringing and
24:17
not just like, hey, you're growing A-Team, but you're now
24:19
bringing in executives. It's sort of have to like, you
24:22
know, bring their own culture from their old companies.
24:23
Like I remember even Instacart, we bring in people from like
24:25
Facebook or Google and we're like, wait a minute, this is now
24:28
running in a different way. And you could sort of sense
24:30
these like cultures that they brought with them.
24:31
And how did you guys see that at their table?
24:33
And have you seen that sort of impact as the company sort of
24:36
scaled and grew? I think the the culture, like
24:39
the most important part of that is making that part of your
24:41
hiring. And so, you know, just people
24:43
you bring in are the biggest carriers of your culture.
24:45
And it kind of seems like that's how it plays out.
24:47
Like it's not the thing you write in the wall.
24:49
Like that doesn't really matter too much.
24:50
Like that does matter, but make sure like the people actually
24:52
embody that. And so especially within an
24:55
executive, you know, to your point, it's like you're
24:57
amplifying that they hire people, they hire people, so on
24:59
and so forth. So I think for us, like we, we
25:03
would try to find a good culture fit, but also like a lot of
25:07
times you're hiring an executive because you need to change the
25:09
culture and, and maybe bring in something different.
25:11
I think especially with executives, it's, it's kind of
25:14
like a good way for you to bring in other knowledge and
25:17
expertise, so on and so forth. So I think, you know, kind of
25:22
making sure the combination of like having the right culture to
25:25
to fit in with what you're doing, but also bringing, you
25:27
know, realizing they're bringing in something else, they're going
25:29
to kind of scale out to the org. And we've kind of played that
25:32
good and bad. And I think it's never easy to
25:35
to figure out what those values values are, but but it's pretty
25:39
critical. We have a handful of Instacart
25:40
executives in the room and, and one who's on the stage, former
25:43
one who's on the stage here. I, I do want Max you to tell a
25:46
funny Kevin story if you have one, because you know, you guys
25:48
brought him in and he's a character.
25:50
And so at some point, you know, he, he did or said something
25:53
dumb and you had to deal with it.
25:55
You don't have to do it, but I I really do want to give Kevin a
25:57
hard time as. Much It's easy to come up with
25:58
dumb stuff that Kevin and Jim we're.
26:00
Trying to find a smart. Thing, But you know, I use you
26:03
as an example sometimes when I'm talking.
26:05
He's going to say a nice thing. I can feel it.
26:07
To founders about culture, because a lot of the time the
26:11
instinct is to bring in only people that are like yourselves.
26:15
And when you join the company you were, you represented sort
26:18
of a different set of values and ideas.
26:21
And it was very polarizing to some people, including to me.
26:24
In fact, and I hate to say this, so you probably already know, I
26:26
didn't really like you when you joined the company, you know,
26:29
you heard, but over time I began to respect that you just had a
26:33
different way of operating and it was a bit more of what we
26:36
wanted to become, right? A bit more direct, a bit more
26:41
super high urgency and, and you just had a way of managing your
26:45
team that was just polarizing. And I think it's really
26:47
important to be able to hire people that are different than
26:50
that have the experience that you want to bring into your
26:51
company and that are different than the way the people at the
26:53
company are used to working. And maybe to think about
26:58
changing a little bit if in toward that direction, if you
27:00
bring in an executive and they just have another way of doing
27:03
things. Yeah, and I think it was.
27:04
It's funny because I did have a polarizing view.
27:06
I still have a lot of. Polarizing view.
27:08
You're you're lightning rod. I like it.
27:09
But there was there was a thing that Max did that I think is
27:12
still pretty cool. Like, and you mentioned it
27:13
earlier in the discussion, you're like every Tuesday or
27:15
whatever it was the onboarding day where like you come in and
27:17
do like the founder story, like, you know, every hiring class
27:20
goes through like Max day or Max hour where you're like, hey, I'm
27:22
going to talk through this thing.
27:24
And I think that sort of thread that everybody that joined our
27:28
team, even people that I hired on my team, still got your sort
27:31
of view of culture and how that sort of transcended from like
27:33
day zero to whatever we were day 8, you know, year eight-year 10,
27:37
you know, kind of as we went through it.
27:38
And I think that piece is something that's a little unique
27:41
where I had never seen that before because like, you know,
27:44
it's doing a small company thing and then getting acquired.
27:47
You kind of get like indoctrinated in the big
27:48
companies culture. You go into Microsoft or we went
27:51
into Yahoo many years ago and, and you would just not have this
27:53
way to sort of like, oh, what is the culture?
27:56
Nobody told you? Like you would just show up and
27:57
be like, oh, I guess like Microsoft people I always make
28:00
fun of because they like always introduce themselves with the
28:02
number of years they've been at the company.
28:05
We we actually had one on a podcast.
28:07
Last week, it'll be totally out. Yeah.
28:08
And she's like, yeah. I've been at Microsoft 26 years
28:10
and I was like bro. I would argue that's a
28:13
tradition. You know, that's a Microsoft.
28:15
And every company has traditions.
28:17
And it is through those traditions that that culture,
28:21
you know, propagates from early employees to later employees.
28:24
And you have to tell people what the traditions are.
28:27
And you tell them some of the stories of the history of the
28:29
company and you share deeper sort of deeper meanings about
28:32
the values and bring them to life instead of them just being
28:35
posters on the wall. And then of course, you do the
28:37
other side. Like you weave them into your,
28:39
your hiring scorecard, your, your promotion and evaluation
28:43
scorecards. And you make sure that people
28:44
know that they're actually things that people are going to
28:47
be held accountable to versus just, again, words on the wall.
28:50
You guys are both, you know, kind of major forces within your
28:54
companies in terms of product, right and product leadership.
28:57
And so I would love to talk about, we are in this moment
28:59
right now. You can't go to an event at tech
29:00
week, you can't go on to X, you can't go on LinkedIn without
29:04
just seeing AI, AI, AI, AI. We're in the the peak of the
29:08
hype cycle. Maybe, maybe not, but I really
29:11
would love to dig into in the in the world veritable especially,
29:14
but I think Instacart as well. You know, there is there is a
29:17
lot happening within these companies to try to figure out
29:20
how to leverage AI to make the products better, to make the
29:22
user experience better. But also, how do you view what's
29:25
happening right now and what's about to happen as you know, how
29:28
do you embrace AI within, within the businesses and, and, and
29:31
where do you see it going for for each of your companies?
29:34
I'll make a disclaimer that I'm not too involved in the
29:36
day-to-day at air table. So my, my knowledge is a bit
29:38
dated, but I think there's definitely, you know, 22 aspects
29:43
to, to the AI thing. And 1 is just getting, you know,
29:46
people to use AI productively within the organization for all
29:49
parts of it, all departments and be more efficient, do better
29:52
work, so on and so forth. And I think the other part is
29:55
like, how do you make the product much better?
29:57
And I think it's, you know, I think, I think it's, it's easy
30:03
to sort of do copycat stuff. And we're in such like an echo
30:06
chamber. Everybody's like, you got to
30:08
build an agent, you've got to build this chat thing.
30:10
And I think I don't see as much at least, you know, in the
30:14
broader, you know, set of companies I see out there doing
30:17
a really original thinking about like, what does this mean
30:19
specifically for my business and my customers and the things that
30:22
matter most and applied to the problem that we work on.
30:25
So I think we've tried to take a very original approach to it.
30:28
And I think AI is this really powerful force for software
30:32
creation. That's always been our our goal
30:34
is to make software creation accessible.
30:36
And you know, with vibe coding these things, it's it's a huge
30:39
force multiplier on on this sort of very detailed software you
30:42
can build and as a non developer.
30:45
So we're, you know, we're kind of taking the, the sort of air
30:49
table philosophy of like that's, that's make, you know, this.
30:54
We have people expand that superpower with, with code, but
30:56
then still give them the foundational pieces, all the
30:59
building blocks of like a data layer and, you know, governance
31:02
permissions, all those sort of interface and logic layers.
31:05
Like that's, that's kind of combine the superpower of that
31:08
plus, you know, vibe coding everything else and, and, but,
31:11
but not just sort of like copy with everything is out there.
31:14
So I think that's where we're at right now.
31:16
Max, how about you? I mean, some of the earlier
31:18
demos I saw in Open AI was like Instacart kind of on stage with
31:21
Sam and sort of being part of those demos and being one of
31:23
those early logos kind of is part of this kind of like as
31:25
ChatGPT and these things took off.
31:26
Like what is your set of view of how a is both impacted Instacart
31:29
but then maybe a little bit even into some of the startups you're
31:31
seeing today? I'll start by saying you don't
31:34
even have to be a believer in AI to care about this if you're
31:38
running a company because at the end of the day, your customers
31:41
are also consumers and they are using ChatGPT, Gemini and all
31:48
the other, you know, AI assistants that are, that are
31:50
out there. And so they're getting used to
31:53
having these magical experiences.
31:55
So it's becoming actually just table stakes for you to have
31:57
these kind of magical experiences in your product too.
31:59
So that's one way we think about it.
32:01
And then I think you just alluded to it, but you know,
32:03
couple days ago Open AI, you know, announced some of their
32:07
endeavors in terms of making more of an app platform.
32:10
I think others will follow. And I think we look at it as an
32:14
opportunity to reach users as well, you know, and to grow.
32:17
So you want to be early on these sort of platforms.
32:19
I mean, think about the, you know, the push with mobile apps,
32:23
which you are pioneer of, right? You want to have like the great
32:25
app early on the App Store and have the first users.
32:30
Yeah. And then how about starting
32:31
companies today? Like so it's one thing for like
32:33
an Instacart or an air table to be like, oh, we're going to add
32:36
AI or be or like, you know, transform AI.
32:38
But how about like, you know, you guys both talked to a lot of
32:40
founders and probably done a lot of Angel investments and
32:43
investments. Like what is your sort of what
32:45
are you seeing in this sort of like as founders are coming out
32:47
and starting things today, like how are they using AI?
32:49
And then like, you know, we always talk about like the AI
32:51
Chachi BT wrapper, but like what's the real story?
32:54
Like, where are you actually seeing people kind of innovate?
32:56
Well, I, I got 1 framework, which is that it used to be the
32:59
case that the ideal founding team was two people, three
33:02
people kind of coming out of a company with an insight about
33:05
that general business. And the main thing that they had
33:09
was subject matter expertise that was recent.
33:12
And the, you know, and then, then as far as building the
33:15
company, using technology to build the company, they were
33:17
doing what everyone else was doing.
33:19
Today you have teams of, you know, very young founders who
33:23
are AI native, who've been using, you know, a gentic coding
33:27
and cursor and so forth for for a year now who can build things
33:32
extremely fast and can make up for the fact that they don't
33:35
necessarily have as much domain expertise.
33:37
And I think in my experience, those younger teams are kind of
33:40
sometimes running circles around the other teams that are kind of
33:43
doing things in more of a waterfall way.
33:45
So it's a huge advantage to be able to wield these new tools.
33:48
And I basically now at this point only invest in founders
33:52
that are doing that. Yeah, it might even.
33:53
I think like air table is almost like a platform.
33:56
I mean like I think of it, it's the original vibe coding
33:58
platform, right? And I'm guessing you're not only
33:59
seeing like founders build a round a table, but also this the
34:02
stuff you're seeing outside of it.
34:04
Yeah. Well, to build on Max's point,
34:06
like it if you're a like you should index high and
34:09
scrappiness and originality, creativity and just first
34:13
principles thinking. I think in this AI era, and I
34:15
think like even, you know, if, if you're a young founder, you
34:18
don't have like a bunch of domain experience or industry
34:20
experience could even be an advantage because you'll come at
34:23
it from a very fresh perspective.
34:24
And you won't be held back by ideas of what this piece of
34:27
software looks like in the industry or how people do things
34:29
in existing workflows is like you can, you can reinvent from
34:32
the ground up with this new platform.
34:34
And to your point, you can learn so quickly.
34:36
So I think if there's a high degree of, you know, agency and
34:39
scrappiness and creativity and originality, like you're, you're
34:43
golden. That's that's the type of
34:44
founder you want to invest. In Let's Talk Learning.
34:46
So you know, you guys have both. I love the the kind of view in
34:50
in the media of overnight success, right like all the all
34:53
of a sudden Instacart air table household names like they just
34:55
it just happened one night. But like you know that's not
34:57
true. And so let's talk about the
34:59
things that happened that, you know, if if you each could share
35:03
that kind of $10 or maybe $10 million mistake some of your
35:07
favorite like, oh man, we really shouldn't have done that moments
35:10
building these formative companies for for for this for
35:14
this group here who I saw a bunch of hands go up as
35:16
founders, like maybe they can learn from some of your scar
35:18
tissue and in this conversation. Yeah, they're, they're sort of
35:23
costly directions and and visions.
35:26
You can have like one example for us is we we spent a long
35:30
time trying to build a platform. I think before we were ready to
35:32
build a platform in the sense that we built this developer SDK
35:36
where people can build their own custom apps and release them in
35:39
a marketplace, but really didn't have any developers building on
35:42
like writing code on their table at that time.
35:44
So, so it didn't make a lot of sense to build a marketplace
35:47
until we actually felt the pull from that audience.
35:49
So that that was an expensive like detour.
35:51
We built this, it was called the Airtable Blocks platform, I
35:54
think a bit too early and it was based on like this vision of,
35:57
you know, what build this thriving ecosystem and they'll
36:00
be these flywheels and everything else and just a bit
36:02
too theoretical. So that was a costly mistake and
36:06
probably wasted quite a bit of time.
36:07
But I, I think it, you know, the other side of that is you got to
36:09
try risky things to, to succeed and to keep inflecting new
36:12
growth curve. So, you know, no regrets.
36:17
We, we made our fair share of mistakes.
36:20
And my overall lesson from those is that when you, when you're in
36:24
the right market with generally the right approach, you just
36:28
assume you're going to be wrong. But if your if your iteration
36:31
speed and your ability to learn from customer feedback is very
36:34
strong and your iteration speed is very high, you make up for it
36:37
Very very. Quickly, lots of shots on goal.
36:39
Lots of shots on goal and also just many little adjustments
36:42
that get you that like like a like a, you know, honing in on
36:46
it like a heat seeking missile towards product market fit.
36:49
And then once you get there, it's about scaling it.
36:50
And that's sort of a different a different chapter.
36:53
But and mainly my lessons from the post product market fit
36:57
version of Instacart. We're just not doing things we
36:59
did sooner, you know, not partnering with more retailers
37:02
and being in more geographies and, you know, being better at,
37:06
you know, using advertising as a lever to grow all those things
37:09
sooner. Yeah.
37:10
How about like kind of the other side, like founder therapy, like
37:13
control burnout, like things where you just had to like, man,
37:16
take a break and realize that you kind of hit a wall and, you
37:20
know, did that happen at a certain point or was like a
37:22
certain inflection thing where you can remember?
37:23
And then and then more importantly, like how have you
37:25
sort of like worked through that or did you work through that if
37:27
you hit it? Yeah, I think thinking through
37:29
the history of the company, we started in 2012.
37:32
And so I think we finally got some traction and maybe
37:36
20/17/2018. So it's five years of just
37:39
grinding and without a lot, a lot of validation.
37:42
We have like our film producer friend or like our nonprofit
37:45
friend, little pockets of like, hey, this could really click
37:47
passionate users. But it was quite a slog.
37:51
And I mean, in some, some senses, we, we had the luxury to
37:57
take our time early on and build good foundations and do what we
38:00
thought was our best work because we weren't in a hyper
38:02
competitive space. You know, it's like we, we
38:04
didn't have some other company that's building like another air
38:07
table. I mean, we had a few that that
38:08
kind of flame came and went and flamed out and so on and so
38:11
forth. But I think it's we, we sort of
38:14
had a chance to breathe for the first five years of the company
38:17
and we're building and doing what we loved.
38:19
And then you sort of get into the whirlwind of, Hey, there's
38:22
all these customers, you're hiring, all these teams, you're
38:23
hyper scaling and that's phase of the company, which to me, you
38:27
know, caused a lot more burnout or, or just like stress and
38:31
you're, you're in more reactive mode.
38:33
I think, especially as, as somebody who's deep on product
38:35
and engineering, you just kind of want to get your hands into
38:37
that again. And you're kind of dealing with
38:38
other stuff in the company. But I think we always had a
38:41
pretty good balance of like thinking that this is a, you
38:44
know, this is a long term endeavor.
38:46
It's going to be at least 10 years if you want to build what
38:48
we set out to do. So we had that mindset and as Co
38:51
founders, we would be forgiving of like, Hey, I need to kind of
38:53
pull back for a little bit, you know, major life milestones
38:57
would pop up and we kind of give some slack to one Co founder and
39:00
so on and so forth. And so I think having those
39:03
relationships where you can understand the person's personal
39:06
life and kind of make that space is important as well.
39:08
But you know, I think I I did eventually kind of burned out of
39:13
the hands on org management side and I've kind of pulled back to
39:16
more of a I see a role within their table and and less less
39:20
involved day-to-day. So maybe Max is a better one to
39:23
to speak to, you know, engagement.
39:26
It's similar in a sense that I think you go through different
39:28
chapters as a founder, sort of the early days.
39:30
It's just all hands on deck, you know, 997 working all the time.
39:35
Maybe you get the luxury of some scale and a bigger team and you
39:38
get to pull back a little bit and be more strategic.
39:41
I've also gone through the journey of being like a manager
39:44
of lots of people and then IC again and then a manager again
39:47
and and just having different functions under me and just try
39:50
to keep it interesting and keep learning is my approach to not
39:53
getting burnt out. I'd love to hear, you know,
39:57
often times in these conversations you hear some of
39:58
the same themes pop up. But, you know, give us the most
40:02
contrarian take, you know, unpopular opinion.
40:04
You guys have a lot of learnings from building these companies
40:07
over the years and now investing in other companies.
40:11
You know, we didn't shout this out, but Max, this is a
40:12
beautiful space that you guys have built here and thank you
40:14
for hosting us in workshop so. Nice cyber truck.
40:17
Yeah. You know, I don't know what
40:19
drives that thing around, but you look, I think I think it
40:23
would be interesting to hear kind of that that, you know,
40:25
what is something that is maybe uncommon knowledge or an
40:29
unpopular opinion that you guys have have formed over the years
40:32
that that needs to be set in the room of people building and and
40:35
starting new things. I have like a very specific
40:39
thing where it's like, you know, go build this thing.
40:42
And because, yeah, I think generally I would encourage
40:47
people to like, read the classics and inject some kind of
40:53
randomness into their information diet and, and try to
40:57
like, you know, go back in time and see what people tried in the
41:00
past and what hasn't worked. I think for us and Airtable, a
41:03
lot of our inspiration came from reading about the history of
41:06
computing things like Allen Kay and Hypercard and like the Dream
41:09
machine, all that. And I think, you know, most
41:14
stuff that people build has been tried in the past and people
41:18
just kind of forget about it. And we're in this new technology
41:21
wave and I, I see a lot of companies kind of like kind of
41:24
doing the same thing. Maybe they're doing slight,
41:26
slightly different versions of like agents for this vertical
41:29
map vertical. There's a ton of opportunity
41:31
there. But I think like if you can find
41:33
something, I mean, at least for us, like our experience was like
41:35
being in a very non competitive space for a long time because
41:38
we're doing something that nobody else was doing.
41:39
Everybody else thought it was stupid, which kind of sucked,
41:42
but it's kind of great to you. So if you can find something
41:44
like that and you can find you can build a passion for it like
41:47
that, that's something you should, you should just, you
41:49
know, work on long term and have a long time horizon on and and
41:53
you know, if you persist, you can succeed.
41:55
You know, it really shouldn't be contrarian, but I think it's
41:58
become contrarian that that it's a good idea to spend like more
42:03
than 50% of your time talking to customers.
42:06
There's a lot of, I was talking to Jagannath who was at
42:08
Instacart for for many years, and there's a lot of founders
42:11
that are building companies because of some hype of some
42:14
kind, right? It could be what they think
42:17
people want them to be building. It also could just be like
42:21
they're building the version of the company that they think they
42:23
can raise money for, which is not the version of the company
42:27
that your customers want. And so customer development is
42:31
just this really hard thing. You know, if you go and talk to
42:33
20 people and then 20 more and then every week you have to talk
42:36
to five more because it's a continuous process, right?
42:38
And so a lot of times I've heard from founders who have gone and
42:42
done some customer meetings, gotten the insight right, gone
42:45
and build the product, shipped it and then said, well, why
42:48
isn't it working? It's like, well, no, you have to
42:50
talk to customers continuously all the time, right?
42:53
So I just don't, I just think that's just a, a lesson I keep
42:56
having to share with founders, You know, you got to do more
42:58
customer. Development, SF comeback, like,
43:00
you know, we've had this sort of like SF is dead, COVID killed
43:03
it, it's bad, AI brought it back.
43:05
Like what's your kind of take each of you on?
43:07
Like what's SF is like, this is tech week, you know, obviously
43:10
it's a busy week this week, but I'm curious like how you're both
43:14
seeing that from your perspective.
43:15
Yeah, it seems like it's back. And I think, I mean, I came here
43:18
in 2008 and that was, you know, right after the recession and
43:22
all that. And it is pretty dead.
43:24
You know, for a while, the people working at Google and
43:26
Meta and there were some startups, you know, popped up YC
43:29
companies and what not. But it, it kind of felt a little
43:33
bit more like people were here to work and not to live and
43:36
didn't care about the city that much.
43:38
And it, this kind of feels like a renaissance of people are like
43:41
that's make San Francisco an awesome place.
43:43
And it feels more permanent in some ways in terms of maybe it's
43:48
like, you know, Gary Tan to being like an advocate of the
43:50
city they didn't used to be that part of like, hey, not only is
43:53
this the best place to build tech, but this is a great place
43:55
to live and we can make it a great place to live.
43:57
So that's been a positive change I think from the last kind of
43:59
build up up until maybe, you know, 20/18/2020.
44:03
And then this time, you know, the flip side of that is like, I
44:06
think there is, you know, a lot of companies that will come and
44:09
go and we're in like a, a bit of this bubble.
44:11
And so it'll be kind of like at some point, the, the, the ocean
44:15
will, the tide will, will go out and, and you know, probably
44:19
probably wash out a lot of mercenaries that are just kind
44:21
of here to, to make a buck off of AI.
44:23
But it does feel like there's a, a positivity and optimism about
44:27
the city itself and being a resident here.
44:29
That wasn't the case in the past, which I appreciate.
44:33
I mean, I, I, I obviously agree. I think I think San Francisco is
44:36
the best place in the world to build a startup and it's only
44:40
getting better. And if you believe that in
44:43
person work is important and, and collaborating with your team
44:46
in real life is an advantage and there's only one city, you can
44:50
do that and have everybody be in one place.
44:52
And I think that's San Francisco.
44:53
I really actually don't think it ever wasn't.
44:56
I think it had APR problem for a while, but I think it's a great
45:00
place to live and I'm going to be here forever.
45:03
Where can folks find you online and connect with you if they
45:05
want to follow the things that you're sharing and writing about
45:08
or or you know, where should folks go?
45:11
I'm a offset in Twitter, but I don't tweet.
45:15
Maybe I will someday. Let's go.
45:17
I'm. I'm Max on Twitter.
45:19
And I also just, he's at Max. Max.
45:21
Yeah, he's at Max. Should we talk about that or?
45:23
That's just. Yeah, it's kind of cool.
45:25
You're not at Kevin. No, I'm not at Kevin.
45:27
Yeah, I've, I've been using Twitter since the beginning of
45:31
Twitter, but I also don't tweet that much.
45:33
But maybe I will. Maybe.
45:33
Well, if you follow me, I'll tweet.
45:35
Yeah, if they get, if you would get a bunch of subscribers today
45:38
and new Twitter followers, ex followers for.
45:40
Yeah, for sure. That's going to be the smash
45:42
that subscribe button. Yeah, smash it like and
45:45
subscribe. Awesome.
45:46
Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you, Andrew Austad.
45:50
Thank you, Max Mullen. What an incredible conversation.
45:54
Yeah. So you can clap for them,
45:55
please. A lot of clapping.
45:58
This is founder mode. Please like, subscribe, smash
46:01
those buttons, review to tell us who you want to see next time.
46:04
Max says we can come back now and pull the cyber truck in.
46:06
So we're doing it. And my name is Jason Shafton.
46:09
Kevin Henrickson. Thanks for being here everybody.
46:11
Thanks for having us.