Latest / Books4Guys / Give a Damn | Justin Ricklefs on Leadership, Human Connection, and Caring Companies

Transcript

Give a Damn | Justin Ricklefs on Leadership, Human Connection, and Caring Companies · Books4Guys

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Liberty, Missouri.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Small world, man.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when I pulled up your profile, when I first came across it, I saw you were in Kansas City.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my questions obviously was going to be like, hey man, are you a big Chiefs fan?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then I saw where you worked for the Kansas City Chiefs.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm from Northwest Arkansas.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I got a lot of buddies who grew up Chiefs fans, obviously not that far away.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then another small world I saw where Joel Goldberg, you were on his podcast, and uh I pulled him up on your LinkedIn, and I was like, no way.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I had Joel on my podcast about a month ago, and I was on his about a month ago, and I was like, man, this is a small world.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Total small world, man.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Joel's the best.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's just so good to meet you, Chris, and glad our world's intersected.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Where in Northwest Arkansas was home for you?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a reason I asked, we've got a daughter going to the U of A in the fall.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm learning how to say woo-pig Suey as often as possible.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, just say it just like that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was from like Springdale Fayetteville area.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So grew up like 15 minutes from the university, had season tickets for a long time.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: My family's still there.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I go in quite often.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, when there's like SEC Championship over here in Nashville, we go to all those games.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if they play nearby, so we're we're all hog, man.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm always happy to hear somebody, somebody else.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be in the family now when you're done.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I gotta get I gotta get some swag, man.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've yet to find the right uh t-shirt that I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna gear up for sure.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you gotta get one of those Nike hog polos.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be in it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that's right.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, Justin, man, super cool to talk to you.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as I was just looking at your background and just the people you know, your book, your work, I was like, man, I gotta reach out to Justin and see if I can get him on the Books for Guys podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, first off, man, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: But second, man, I love I love your book.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And number one, I love your title.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what caught my eye, and it probably catches most people's eye who sees it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: But your the your book is called Give a Damn, the Catalyst for Caring Companies.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And man, just kind of share how you led into that.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: What your background, I saw where you were, you know, VP of sales, worked for the Kansas City Chiefs.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to know just what triggered you to to move off from that and and really to put this book out there about putting people and humans first.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Chris, it's uh it's a there's there's a long version of the story, right?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's the most concise way I can tell it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're unfortunately limited by time, a little bit constrained by time, but the the long version, as short as possible, is there's my first job out of college was as a as a full-time cook in a fraternity.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh had a communications degree from a zoo.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: We had a, my wife was pregnant.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: We had our first daughter a year and four days after our wedding day.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And my father-in-law was a dentist.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like we, you know, uh it was just a really interesting.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: In hindsight, we love that time of life because it was so simple.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: We had this like$400 apartment and one bedroom.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, that's a different story.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But but at that point, I was like, I love this job because the owner of the company, his name is Leslie Jett.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's a phenomenal person.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: He taught me so much about hospitality and about care and about precision in work, even though I was at a fraternity.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: He was an executive chef.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: He was, he ran a catering business.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's it's just a funny way to intro, is like I worked in a fraternity.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then, but then I stumbled into this company called Learfield Sports.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And Learfield was based in Jefferson City, Missouri, ultimately moved their headquarters to Dallas.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: They've been acquired multiple times across the path.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the the the owner of the business was a gentleman named Clyde Lear.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a young life leader in college, a volunteer leader, and he was a big donor.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he hosted this leader event at his house.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and I, you know, I came from a lovely, loving family, but we were we were middle class.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't have exposure to quote unquote wealthy people that much.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know that, you know, and the the phrase I use a lot and talk about in the book is I didn't know care and commerce could coexist.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you kind of had to pick one or the other.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you had to go be, you know, in the mission field, or you had to like go be rich.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like those two things didn't really both end for me for a long, long time.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: All that to say, I I experienced Clyde.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we walked, I walked through his house and I was like, oh my gosh, this place is incredible.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: He just backs up to this lake.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's super kind, he's big-hearted.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's got pictures of like himself and Roy Williams together with a KU basketball or North Carolina basketball, I'm sorry, at the time.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then Bob Stoops, the football coach at OU, and like him and Clyde are hanging out.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, who is this dude?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so anyway, there is a super long story, but but the but the encounter I had with Clyde, and then ultimately his business and his people and the culture.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I became obsessed.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I became really, I was just drinking the Learfield Kool-Aid.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I interned there for six months and then ultimately got a full-time job.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it set me on this course where I didn't know it at the time.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I didn't, but it set me on this course where I was just watching and surveying and understanding and trying to pick up pieces of leadership or influence or behaviors that I felt like I received from a helpful, healthy stance.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, like throughout that journey, there were there were periods of time when the boss was hurtful or shameful or made me feel a certain way.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and then as I got to the point where, and again, it's a whole different version or a whole different squirrel.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: But when I got to the point at the end of my time, the second time with the Chiefs, which I'm so thankful for, I learned so much in those eight years collectively.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I got to this point where I was like, man, I it's time for a lot of reasons for us to try to build our own thing, for me to hang my own shingle, for me to kind of venture off of the dock and see if this little boat could float.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so Give a Damn was born.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the actual writing process took, call it eight months, but the book was this kind of 20 plus year corporate career where I was able to surface stories and anecdotes and certainly ways that I've flubbed and failed and then other ways where I've grown and and encouraged and lived into that mindset.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, the the the crystallization of the framework or the of or the thesis was can care actually be a competitive advantage?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Clyde was the protagonist in the story the whole time.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So my gosh, that was a long answer to your awesome question.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, man, I'm I'm dissecting a lot of that because I think there's a couple of things I'm thinking about.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's super cool how it seems like people who are high achievers or doing incredible things, they always talk about the journey of watching others, maybe reading about others, picking up on traits that they that aligns with them as a person.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: They they pick up on traits where they they realize, hey, I don't want to be like that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't resonate with me.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a good quality.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you start and you kind of have to learn that in the thick in thick of things, in the speed.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just, you know, I I kind of it's kind of funny.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't make fun of it, but you you know, you got a lot of young guys out there trying to give advice, and it's like, man, I get it, but you really not get it until you go through it, and you went through a long period of time where you were picking up on things and really sharpening your kind of direction and craft and building what's you know, what you have now.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I thought was interesting too, and I was thinking back, you know, I grew up in church and all that too, and you kind of middle class too, didn't have a whole lot, but you you you kind of have that thought process too of like you either have to give it all or you know, having a lot of money, it just didn't seem to line up.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's one of those things that you grow older, you do get introduced to people who are like, no, man, like making a lot of money is a blessing.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can do a lot more, you know, when you run a business and you're profitable and you've got money to give to others and help people with jobs.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's interesting how you were talking about that transition too, of kind of figuring that out of man, you can build a big business and do it the right way and be caring and be giving.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, those are just a couple things I was thinking about as you were talking.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think it's I think it's really helpful uh in thought and and I'm in process still there, right?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm still in process of the the scarce small story and this kind of you know fearful, we cut in our in the in guild business, we call it frantic.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: In that frantic state, when even if you have quote unquote a lot or if it looks good or whatever, if the if the energy and the soul is frantic, it's not this like grounded, peaceful place is coming from a place of like, I gotta prove it, I gotta figure it out, I gotta put it all on my shoulders, I'm terrified it's all gonna run out, I'm terrified we won't make payroll, all this stuff that you go through versus and it and it's not so black and white, of course, but the but if you get to this place of like the flourishing part, the frantic to flourishing is kind of this paradigm we talk about from a brand standpoint, but it's true from from a leader's perspective as well.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where then it's like grounded and generative and generous, and it becomes it becomes a a whole different set of energetic alignment, of posture, of purpose, all that stuff.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and the other thing, real quick, when you're and again, not picking on people who haven't gone through this, but I love there's some guy, I don't even know him, some dude posted on LinkedIn the other day, like a picture of his dining room or his like kitchen breakfast area, and there's like cereal all over the floor, like the dog had thrown up, there's crap everywhere.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, if your 6:35 a.m.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: reality doesn't look like this, I'm not taking your morning advice.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just like I was like, I love that guy because that's like it's really messy.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, life is messy, life is hard, life in a lot of ways is is not as it should be, and it's it's this wonderful, beautiful gift when we embrace the presence of it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you writing about this, I'm curious just your thoughts because I'm thinking again too, like I've been at the company I'm at now, I can't say enough positive things about it.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about caring, the leadership, man, they're so in tune, they're so supportive, they're so how can I help?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, man, what's going on with your wife, your daughter?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like just in-tune questions, and and I always brag about that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've also been other places where leadership doesn't care a whole lot.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's yeah, what have you done today?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing tomorrow?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like the conversation's very surface level.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you think it would be such an easy thing to grasp and understand just how beneficial having a caring environment is and just being supportive and just how much more you can accomplish and grow as a company when people are excited to be there, they care about you, you care about them.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: But why do you think it's so tough for some companies or some cultures to grasp and implement that?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Such a great question, Chris.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't I don't fully know is the answer.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I what I'm exploring and experimenting with, though, is that there there are beliefs that are based more in kind of black and white binary thinking that that leaders are, if I can command and control and surveil these people, then then I will get what I want, a big, healthy, beautiful business, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I have to like, I don't really trust them.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really care for them.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I trust and care for myself as the leader, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I put that bucket in, you know, the the really dramatic examples of people have watched Severance on Apple TV.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like you you literally check your humanity upstairs.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like leave all your life stuff upstairs and then come down into this dungeon and like separate your soul from your performance and go sit in this weird cubicle with this green carpet and hate your existence, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so like that's a dramatic example, but but corporations, I understand it's not it's not the best strategy, but I understand why people do that because you feel in control, you feel powerful, you feel like you can find some level of certainty.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and and when even in a production environment, we have a client on the guild side who has fully embraced this human first mindset.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and they've they've walked the road at scale.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they did this massive consulting work because they were finding a rift between their production level employees and their management team.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they couldn't keep their facilities full.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're constantly churning through people.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you tie it back to, wait, hold on, they did this big consulting project.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what came back from a multi-million dollar engagement, I wish it was with us, it wasn't, is this really simple but beautiful insight.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: The number one thing they found was the production level employees wanted their supervisor to know their first name.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Don't call me bro, don't call me hey, don't call me you, don't call me nothing, call me Chris.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and the and the work of the leadership team was like, uh, I don't know that guy's first name.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's been here 14 years, grinding it out.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And like I've just called him dude the whole time or yo, or whatever you.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and so there's this really beautiful but vulnerable state where they both kind of had to say, hey, there there can be a better way.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I think there's this this swell or this surge of companies that are that are going, yeah, I don't have to choose anymore.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to choose.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: If I want the if I want people like Chris to work at our place and to thrive here and to grow and to invest his his his peak earning years with us, he's gonna have options if I don't care for him, if I don't give a damn about what his home life looks like, if I don't check in with, hey, why are you why's your energy off today?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Not because I need you to perform and like meet a thing, but I'm I'm curious, genuinely curious about you.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: The people and and that's how I experienced Clyde all the way back, you know, back in the day was he cared enough about me to know my wife's name and to know we had a baby, even though he was the CEO of this huge company.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's weird.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: This feels like a neighborhood or a church or a whatever.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: It feels better.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I therefore trust and love and care for him, and I will run through the damn brick wall for that guy, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where, you know, in its most simple form, Truett Caffey, the founder of Chick-fil-A, supposedly said, and I heard this secondhand through a Chick-fil-A owner operator, but he's in an internal meeting, Truett would constantly say, care and commerce can coexist.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not either or, it's both hand.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you've seen this movement of not just leaders, but cultures and companies who who do give a damn, who do care.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they're doing it because it's good and right, and also because it's a it's a really damn good business strategy.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think you can see, I think you can see a lot of companies taking this approach or trying to a little bit more over the last, I don't know, five, 10 years, and maybe COVID had something to do with that, or just as environments and people leaving and going, you know, all over the place.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're right.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems that if leadership takes that approach, everyone else will do their work because they want to work hard for that person.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like having a good, you know, I think of sports.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I had a coach that cared, I'll do anything they say, you know, because I want to make him all I want to hit, all I want to hear is good job from that coach.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because then I know, you know, I'm doing, I'm helping him, I'm doing what you know he's inspired me to do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like leaders can take the same approach with with an organization.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: But then Yeah, and if I can, if I can interrupt you, Chris, uh it's yes to all that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes I think the the danger or the or the or the caution is if people hear that and then they think, you just have to be soft, nice, etc.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I guarantee whatever sport it was that that coach was telling you good job at, also grabbed your face mask, grabbed your jersey.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like he also, or he or she told you the truth, which is in the book we talk about clarity.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like they saw something in you that you weren't able to see in yourself, and they called that up and out and and challenged you in a way that you received differently because you knew they cared.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I, and I'm saying that I interrupted you because my tendency and work that I've had to be really crisp on and clear on.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Kim Scott's book, Radical Candor, shook me in a in a way that uh she talked about it being ruinous empathy if you're not able to challenge directly.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you just care and you don't challenge, it's really actually avoidant and soft on the leader's part to call it like kind when it's really nice.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a big difference between kind and nice.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Kind is is is direct, truthful still from a loving, caring perspective, but it's not avoidant of the truth.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: As I as you talk about coaches, I'm like, heck yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: But but the tendency will be, I think for some people to hear, like, like what about the what about, you know, Nick Sabin?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't always nice.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, no, no, no, but he did care.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And like he called those those dude young men up into a different elevation than they were able to get on their own.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm even I'm I'm thinking of breaking it down even even more to just groups of friends.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you've got that care and I've coaching too, accountability.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much easier to take accountability and and hear that feedback when you know they care about you.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, same thing with groups of friends, I'm thinking of two or three buddies where we've called each out on called each other out on things before, like, hey bro, you're being stupid.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: You might get pissed for a second, and then you're like, Yeah, man, you're right.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't be better than anybody.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can call me out.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, thanks for doing that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because they want your they want your good.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just like, they're not just trying to command and control you.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying, they're trying to help you, they're trying to serve you, they're being other centered, which is really great.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where Justin, I'm thinking of one, the the hot topic right now, uh, AI, artificial intelligence, and and organizations seem to just be sprinting, trying to keep up, trying to implement.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see a trend of people kind of struggling with maintaining that human approach while also like trying to sprint and make sure everything else is, you know, being being good on the technology and then business side?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something you're experiencing from from what you guys are are doing as well?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I and I'm I'm evolving in my own exposure and beliefs here.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: A few months ago, I used to say, I mean, literally like 90 days ago, not not two years.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: 90 days ago, I used to say, hey, I'm not anti-AI, I'm just pro-human connection, which which is catching cute, whatever, and and and true.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's interesting is for me is I'm starting to experience conversations.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking about my friend Gary, who's literally next door.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's been such a such a helpful teacher for me on how to view it as a human accelerant, as a as as an opportunity to actually increase human connectivity.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, same type of concept, like to not be frantic and afraid of it, to not live in denial of it, and like also not be so reliant on it that it that it helps you avoid the real work of of the human leader.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're we're we're in lots of experiments, like how it plays out.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: But but our clients at guild are all asking us, you know, this week happened this week.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: You've helped us define with perp with clarity who we are.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've given us language to use to describe our business, you've given us clarity on our values that we can believe and behave on how this organization shows up internally and externally.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do we feed cloth?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like there are these really practical ways.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're gonna do this anyway.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you begin to shape it in a way that helps identify the humans that are connecting to this brand and who experience it, for us, that's where we're that's where we're in in experimentation on right now.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And but but again, I I think the the it's easy to just kind of like polarize it and be like, oh, it's gonna fix all of our problems, or it's like everybody's getting fired.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, man, it's just it's not that simple.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a complicated thing.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and for us to to ignore it is is denial and foolish.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for us to think that we can just AI write all of our LinkedIn posts and email sequences for the rest of time and not work or not like focus on the core problems that we're facing in our business is like also foolish.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I am.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I love that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, you kind of line up.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a couple of different people on recently who have written books on this specific topic about how AI can actually, if we look at it the right way, can help us be more human and do more human things.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, hey, instead of instead of looking at this negatively, how can we how can we use this to maybe free up another hour in our day where we can do more team happy hours?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can go to your wife and kids and go on walks, or you know, get away and and and travel for a week, you know, and and structure your structure things where Things using some some prompts, and you can get away from technology for a little while and go experience life and go hiking or do all these things.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, it's so interesting because I think a lot of us we pay attention again to the news and the post, and people are losing jobs, and they're the the top AI gurus are are fighting legal battles and all this negative to it, but there's also all this positive that can come from it too.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even you know, health, health uh breakthroughs that can cure certain things.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a there's positive to it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: But like you said, how can we use this to create more human experiences and be more human?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where people are starting to kind of think of it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I could see how that'd be very important for companies and cultures to kind of figure that out too, so that employees, again, you're putting people first.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: How can we use these tools to increase the the productivity but also the happiness of our employees?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man, 100%.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think sometimes, at least for me, I can get lost in these big macro conversations of like, whoa my God, like like you're saying, like the the you know, Elon and Sam are fighting again, and like the presidents, whatever, like all these big macro things.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I re my my favorite band is this group called the Avet Brothers.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And they they have this this the their lyrics are incredible.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about storytelling, but they have this one, they have this one lyric that says, your life won't change by the man that's elected, which people can argue and debate and whatever, but it's like ultimately like my life is my responsibility.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And for me to to see and receive the gifts that are in front of me and make the best next decision that I can given the information I have.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're all doing our damnedest to do our best.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just think it's it's easy to kind of detach from your current actual environment and talk about these theoretical, like big things, which it shouldn't ignore, shouldn't be like ostrich in the sand thing.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, it's man, like I I got my wife and my five kids, and we've got a life, and we got to make the mortgage payment, we've got payroll.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I've got enough problems on my own to wonder about like what Elon's gonna do with Sam and Core.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: That that what they're doing shouldn't take a majority of your energy.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: You got your own stuff to worry about, and and you can do, you know, do what you need to do.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But Justin, just two more questions for you, man.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: This has been awesome.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: When people read your book, you know, if they don't take, if they don't take but one thing away from it, what do you hope that one message is that syncs with them?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm glad you asked.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I it's it's an easy no-brainer and it's so fun because it was like a it was a surprise.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: It literally like was this divine kind of creative.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm digging in my back.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So at the very end, I've got this give a damn matchbox.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: The book wasn't done.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was written and done.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I sent it over to Jason who did all the layout.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's our senior art director at guild.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's the best designer in the country, in my opinion.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he's got a big heart.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's really awesome, dude.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I sent over the manuscript.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, dude, it's ready.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and then he texted or slapped me back or something.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, hey, I got it all laid out, but I'm struggling to figure out the cover image.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, what do you want on a cover?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Besides obviously it's saying give a damn, right?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, What's the symbol?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't know, man, like maybe maybe it's a flag, like people can plant the flag, this and that.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I and just was voice memoing him this kind of long diatribe.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what ended up coming out was this story about the monks.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to this silent retreat for two days last July.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not Catholic, but I was, I was, I encountered something really profound and mysterious and frankly magical that weekend.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they would start each session.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had 48 hours, but there were four they call them seminars, but essentially like mini sermons where the one of the monks would teach these guys on a retreat.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: But we were silent, so we couldn't speak.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I I kept watching Father Paul, he would start every session with this like really simple symbol, like he would light a match.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And he'd light the candle, then he'd blow the match out, and then he'd open his Bible, and he'd go, but it was very, it was very rigorous.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: It had lots of fidelity, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't there wasn't a guess.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just how he operated.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was very specific and precise.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was the the match hung with me.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and what was crazy, this is like literally crazy part of like the creative process.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think stuff just happens.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like you get these little gifts or these little downloads when you commit to doing the work.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Jason was like, Oh my gosh, bro, you've tied flames into this whole thing.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: The the the opening what I'm blanking on the word, what I was the the book is written to my wife, Brooke.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the I'm I'm totally blanking on what that's called.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say honor, but that's not right.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: The the the opening of the book is dedicated, dedication, that's what I was looking for, is to Brooke.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it talked about her having enough give a damn gumption in her to help me face my internal flames.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole story about that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I talk about this, you know, these fire concepts and how fires gather people, they don't segregate them.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, all that to say Jason was like, dude, the whole concept is about this match.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's about this simple match strike.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, and I like, I mean, yeah, have you ever seen that cat gif where he's like typing on the computer real fast?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I did that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like, there it is.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wrote the appendix.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting, I'm getting to your awesome question.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote the appendix, it just freaking spilled out of me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it was all about Brooke and Jason and Father Paul, and that as leaders and as humans, we're proverbially walking around with this matchbook everywhere we go.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we're taking these stripes and we light this match in a meeting and we cause harm.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're we don't care, we don't give a damn, we don't show curiosity, and we we harm people or ourselves with this flame.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And or the other place is true as well, is that we can give that match away.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: We can like a Christmas Eve candlelight service, we can light the match of our neighbor, our colleague, our client, our friend, our spouse, our partner, our kid, ourselves.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that flame becomes generative, it becomes light, it becomes warmth.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, holy crap, that's it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the whole symbol.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: The whole symbol is one single match, and it came out at the end of what I thought the project was done, and it just surprised me in the most mysterious way.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Dang.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love that, man.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask about the match.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: That perfect question, and the perfect breakdown of that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible, man.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It it's it's crazy how things just happen sometimes.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just just 100%.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're open to it and you're just watching, and just certain things fall into place and and there's no explanation.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So somebody's up there sprinkling some things down, and you're just like, yes, man, all right, this is cool.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it really is like uh Elizabeth Gilbert talks about those downloads.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: She wrote Eat Pray Love and has all you know, big magic.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And but she's like, You it's both in.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: You got to be committed to the process, you got to do the work, and you have to be open to receiving these downloads when they come.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I I believe I think the divine wants to use us to to to do more good and to share more light and to give more hope.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and and that was one like very practical example, like, oh my gosh, I thought this was my words, my writing, my doing, and like this is yes, like it came out of me, but it I received it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a wild experience, man.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Justin, last question for you, and you've mentioned a couple already, so they may be your answers, but I'm always curious to know just from a books standpoint, what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what's a book you love to recommend to others?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, I the the first one that came to my mind is actually a I think most leaders read so much nonfiction, which is great.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And mine's technically nonfiction.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you if people read mine, that would be cool.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: But but what is uh the the book that came to mind was Theo of Golden, which is about this 82-year-old guy in this like fictional town in Georgia who actually had to get my friend Gary went on vacation.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: He came back and he was like, I don't read fiction enough, but you should read this book.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't read fiction enough either, but I'll read that book.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And dude, it it's it's it's give a damn embodied.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just beautiful story and collection of stories about how this guy, Theo, has helps people see themselves and helps see the good in them, helps them shift stories from like this shame stuck place to empowered and alive.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a I won't if people haven't read it, I won't ruin the plot because it's it's a gorgeous, gorgeous read and and in a really practical way of how this stuff can be embodied in the day-to-day.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, good recommendation, man.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously, your book too, give a damn.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: We'll if we've got it on the the Books for Guys website, we'll have it in the show notes too for anyone who wants to go purchase it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't imagine if you listen to this episode and you don't want to purchase it, I'd be shocked because uh I man, you brought you brought the heat, you brought some just just message uh behind what you're trying to share and put out there.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh man, we need more of that out in the world anyway.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, Justin, man, this has been fantastic.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again for for coming on the Books for Guys podcast.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And man, I can't wait to see all that you and your company do moving forward and just the impact that you guys will have.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Same to you, Chris.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful, my friend, and really glad our paths collided and our conversations intersected.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful for you, man.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Keep up the good work.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Justin.