Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Silence Can Cost Everything | Darren Richardson on PTSD, Identity & Recovery

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Silence Can Cost Everything | Darren Richardson on PTSD, Identity & Recovery · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Chris: Alright, so welcome back to Dispecial Dysfunctional. ⁓ this one feels a little bit different for me because we spend a lot of time telling first responders to ask for help. But we don't talk about enough ⁓ what keeps them silent until the damage is already done. Today's guest is Darren Richardson. ⁓ before the titles, credentials, coaching, and all the polished internet stuff, Darren, who are you and what made this conversation saying worth yet saying yes to? Blarg. Darren: ⁓ yeah, no I ⁓ first ⁓ I'm a father and I'm husband. ⁓ father to two ⁓ two daughters and ⁓ former firefighter paramedic, ⁓ also ⁓ two time amputee. ⁓ and so yeah, ⁓ not many people know that, but ⁓ Chris: ⁓ wow. Darren: Yeah, I had a amputation actually when I was a kid. ⁓ I was thirteen. I had a boulder, ⁓ the size of a car follow me. And so ⁓ that kind of introduced me to EMS in a in a weird roundabout sort of way. ⁓ yeah, yeah, right. So ⁓ yeah, kind of crazy. I don't know if you're gonna jump in on that right away, but that's who I am is the a former firefighter, former paramedic. ⁓ I've been out of the fire service. ⁓ Chris: Mm-hmm. Darren: nine years now ⁓ left due to PTSD ⁓ and then worked some odd jobs after that but tried getting back into the fire service and roundabout weird sort of way as my second amputation prevented that and now I'm a coach and ⁓ motivational speaker as well. Chris: That that's that's awesome that you you you grew from the challenges too. You know, that's that's that's amazing right there. And that shows that that shows the type of person you are. You're not one to just lay down there and take it. You're you're one that's gonna get your ass back up. You're gonna get back up and you're gonna you're gonna show it, Hey look, I'm your boss, you ain't mine. So Darren: Yeah, thank you. Right, right. And that's kinda how I've always honestly man, that's how I've grown up. ⁓ since since I can remember is just kinda get up Dust the dirt off, ⁓ don't lay down. And it kinda kinda proved it, ⁓ you know, when I when I was a kid. ⁓ also like grew up single mom, three boys, ⁓ my dad was an alcoholic, wasn't around very much. and so we really couldn't rely on that. So I kinda had to step up and be the the bigger one. And that's really I think where I got some of that resilience, honestly. ⁓ And then yeah, when I was was thirteen I was I'll jump into into that real quick. ⁓ yeah, yeah. I I I feel like I've been bouncing around and and at least let me set that straight. So yeah, I Chris: Yeah. I'm I'm kinda curious on that one. Okay. Y you're a medic, I'm a medic, that that's usually how my brain works. Darren: Right. ⁓ yeah. So I was thirteen years old. I was ⁓ hiking around a lake ⁓ with a buddy of mine. ⁓ at the time I was we were really into rock climbing. ⁓ this was a small town in the mountains out in in ⁓ California, so ⁓ in the late or I'm sorry, in the early nineties, nineteen ninety three. So hiking around a lake, screwed around, we decided we wanna go off trail and just climb some some rocks, screw around like Boys do, right? And I was hiking up a kind of a boulder field, the steep, steep embankment, to go to these little cliffs and kind of stopped up on a ledge, and right above me there was a a big slab, ⁓ taller than me, it was about the size of a small car, ⁓ fell, broke loose, fell. luckily It ⁓ I was able to move enough out of the way, but it got my foot. So it completely crushed my foot and continued rolling down, ⁓ luckily continued rolling down the hill. So I was right underneath it, it broke loose, kinda saw it moving, and just didn't move enough. But I wasn't pinned, ⁓ which was incredible, ⁓ and then only got my foot. ⁓ but that started the cascade of getting help. There were no cell phones at that time, right? And so my buddy had to run he it was probably about a half mile down the down the hillside, down the trail to get help. ⁓ where ⁓ you know, there was some other families around, ⁓ including his family at this lake that they were all hanging out at. ⁓ so someone had to jump in a car, drive about 15 minutes down to the next lake where there was a bait shop that had a phone, and call 911. And so Chris: Peace. Darren: Out there was volunteer fire. ⁓ the ⁓ the ambulance was actually a full-time ambulance. ⁓ so that was kind of lucky. ⁓ but they had to call a search and rescue out as well, just because ⁓ now it was ⁓ considered it was a low angle rescue, is basically what it was considered. and so that rescue took about four hours. ⁓ the ⁓ Luckily, as my buddy was running down when he hit the trail, there was ⁓ a couple there ⁓ who stopped and helped. They ran up. ⁓ he happened to be a dentist. So a little bit about you know some medical training, he kind of knew what to do. ⁓ so he ran up and got to me. At that point, I had removed my shoe, and the the another dumb part of this is we were at the lake playing, so I had like water shoes on. So zero protection, no support, nothing, right? ⁓ so it basically just destroyed those shoes. ⁓ so I was sitting there, pulled the shoe off to see what would happen, and it was just a mangled bag of bones, right? Blood everywhere. two of the toes had been completely severed off. And so I just kind of sat down, actually took my shirt off and started tying my shirt around my leg thinking, ⁓ I gotta stop bleeding it. You know, I'm a kid. I don't know what really what to do. And ⁓ when that dentist got there, he pulled his belt off, put a tourniquet on, and I'm convinced that's what saved my leg. ⁓ at that point. And then it was just wait for rescue. So that that took about four hours ⁓ before I was down at the hospital and it was the local hospital in the small town. And They didn't ⁓ fly me out. They was actually really lucky again. ⁓ there was a trauma surgeon who had from like San Diego area. ⁓ he had luckily ⁓ just flown in to do ⁓ surgery. He was actually he was an orthopedic surgeon that did trauma as well. So he flew in to do someone else's surgery. They got kicked out, I went in and ⁓ at that point they were He was debating. He said, most likely we're going to take the leg below the knee. and initially that's what the plan was. ⁓ he decided in surgery that no, I want to see what's going on, what we can do. So he just pinned the foot back together as best he could. ⁓ so I ended up just getting three big pins. ⁓ the first two toes, the big toe and the second toe, were pinned back on. ⁓ and then a pin put right through the side. ⁓ Chris: ⁓ wow. Darren: of the foot to kind of hold it together and it was let's just wait and see what happens. ⁓ was his concept, right? So it it actually honestly actually worked pretty well. ⁓ the end of the day, it was about two weeks later, I spent three weeks in the hospital. About two weeks into it, ⁓ I started getting an infection. The first two toes died. ⁓ so they were worried about gangrene and they just said, nope, surgery we're gonna take two toes off. ⁓ and Chris: Does I go? Darren: do all the skin grafting. So at that point I didn't have any skin on the top of my foot. ⁓ so they had to do lots of skin grafting. And basically the end of the day is I lost two toes. So pretty lucky. ⁓ you know, right before that it was gonna be below my knee. And so I lived that way for ⁓ you know, 32 years. Chris: ⁓ wow. Darren: as that was my amputation. So it really, you know, it slowed me down a little, but at that point I I was I learned a big lesson in resilience, right? The dirt the surgeons, the doctors, physical therapists, they all agreed that like you're gonna walk with a limp the rest of your life. You're not gonna be able to rock climb again. ⁓ I was ⁓ I lived in a ski town, so I skied a lot. I actually competed racing. ⁓ they said, you know, it's gonna be a couple of years before you get your foot in a ski boot. And I challenged it all. And ⁓ actually three months after that injury, I was out rock climbing again. one of the physical therapists was really cool. He's like, Let's do it, let's get you ready. And so it was learning that hard work and resilience and getting back up. And so that You know, three months later I was ⁓ in a modified shoe. I basically cut a shoe up, taped it where it needed to be, and climbed with my heel because my heel wasn't hurt, right? So, you know, that kind of that fireman engineering brain, like, well, if this doesn't work, I'll just modify it this way. And so that got me, you know, growing up and pretty resilient. So that's as I I went to college. ⁓ and right after college I decided ⁓ I wanted to be a firefighter paramedic. So I went that road and did that for you know, I had 18 years in EMS total, 14 in fire. and loved it. Loved every minute of it. Chris: Can you settle the debate which one's better, EMS or Fire? Darren: Fire. But I was ⁓ you know, I I loved being a paramedic, I did for for most of it. ⁓ yeah, I I started getting the burnout ⁓ of medicine. I think doing that a long a long time, you know, it kind of wears on ya. But ⁓ I was in a busy really busy area. I was in de ⁓ the Denver, Colorado area. ⁓ one of the busiest it it was ⁓ the the department was just south of ⁓ Denver proper. ⁓ but we were a busy, busy department. ⁓ south of that, actually, ⁓ area like Littleton, Highlands Ranch, Parker area. ⁓ if you know the know that area. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, I was at a busy firehouse for most of the time on a medic ⁓ transport unit most of the time. ⁓ yeah. So we kind of you know, you you get busy, you get Chris: So polder area. Darren: Long shifts and the burnout started happening a little bit and you know, a handful of rough calls over that time. You know, eighteen years in that that world is ⁓ it wears on ya. ⁓ you know, you can only kinda handle so much and I think it probably brought out some ⁓ some past kid trauma as well, you know, dealing the the foot stuff. ⁓ you know, my alcoholic father, stuff like that, you know, was buried buried in there deep and ⁓ over a long period of time it was just wasn't enjoyable anymore. I started, you know, I had a handful of really bad ⁓ kid calls and That just ⁓ kind of tore me up. You know, I have young kids as we've started our family, and ⁓ I didn't, you know, my wife is ⁓ my wife's an ER nurse. And so we kind of had that common it, right? It's either firemen or, you know, it's you're married to a a nurse or a teacher, right? For the for most of the most of it, right? and ⁓ yeah, so we noticed we were bringing work home a little bit and to protect each other. Like we totally did it wrong. Like I didn't tell her about my day. She didn't tell me about her day. Like and then our communication just started going downhill. Alcohol, you know, I I kinda hit alcohol too hard over over a while and ⁓ yeah, decided ⁓ after fourteen years you know, just running those terrible calls that I I didn't know that which which was really funny. I didn't know I had PTSD. ⁓ right. I I had I had patience. I worked ⁓ you know, I had several like veterans. I knew what it was. I didn't I didn't look in the mirror. And I was I was too proud and didn't realize it truly what it was. And it was ⁓ affecting my life. ⁓ so We decided to give that life up. ⁓ I left the fire service. My wife got a a really good job in ⁓ Cordlean, Idaho. And so we decided to relocate. Our kids were still young at that time. and thought it's easier to move kids when they're younger than you know when they're teenagers and hate you. So so we moved to yeah. Chris: Yeah. Darren: So so we moved to Court d'Alene and ⁓ I worked odd jobs, I did ⁓ handyman work, I built ⁓ wood boats for a while, I I did a whole bunch of things. ⁓ but realized I was still pretty unhappy and and I thought I was ⁓ I thought I was running to something better. And when I really look in the mirror, I was running away from my problems. Right. I thought, ⁓ I'm out of the fire service, I'm not gonna see this again, I'll be fine. You know, and I So I spent ⁓ probably two years kind of suffering and drinking and ⁓ just going down that road, man. That's that dark road. And ⁓ finally just kind of had a moment. I was reading a ⁓ fire engineering magazine actually, and there was a PTSD quiz in it. And ⁓ like, ⁓ Chris: ⁓ okay. Darren: Got nothing to do, I'll I'll take it. And I hit every single red flag on that on it. And so that o ⁓ man, that opened my eyes, right? and to where so I started ⁓ you know, again, I'm I can fix this, I don't I can do it on my own. And Chris: Damn. Okay. Darren: ⁓ like every mistake, man. Totally every mistake. But I I started listening to podcasts on it, searching for podcasts and found found a really good one that I I enjoyed. ⁓ but he kept referring to like you need to get help. This is a podcast for you know awareness, but if you're listening and you're feeling these things, get help, right? So as I'm listening to these and watching my family grow away from me. I mean my family was ready to leave. And so true rock bottom. ⁓ luckily they didn't, but I went and scheduled an appointment for a therapist. And I I looked up because it's you know I wanted the best, right? So I actually I found one ⁓ who's she's incredible. She deals with first responders and veterans. and does EMDR is ⁓ the therapy that I did and it ⁓ it worked great for me. and yeah it's ⁓ it was great. ⁓ a long it took me a while because we you know we worked through it on the firefighting stuff and then Chris: Wonders about that. Darren: She kind of set me free. And about a month later, I called back and said, Now I'm not not quite there yet. And so we dove in at that point with my foot. And that ⁓ that the combination of the fire, EMS, and then my foot opened up Pandora's box. And that opened up a lot of other things because with EMDR, it can open up other things, right? Which is good because I had a ton of stuff stuffed down there and buried and it opened that up. We talked about ⁓ younger childhood, my alcoholic father, all of this. ⁓ you know, so I I did therapy off and on for quite a while, over a year, ⁓ with this and man, it it was great. After after that, usually it's only a few months, but ⁓ I had a lot, I guess. And ⁓ I feel great now. It's it opened the light, it opened the doors. ⁓ everything's been great since. And ⁓ yeah, so I was actually at that point feeling good, not enjoying the job that I was doing. and ⁓ started deciding I wanted to test to get back in the fire service. ⁓ so I started training, you know, at that point ⁓ Chris: That's awesome. Darren: ⁓ it was a few years ago. So I was forty-five years old, or forty-four, when I was ⁓ when I started training in testing for local departments out here in in Washington and Idaho. and just being that much older than typical recruits in their early twenties, you know, literally twice their age. So I know what it's like to get through a fire academy. I know what it's like to get through your ProBay year. I started do it just working out really hard. I started doing the going to a CrossFit gym again. ⁓ just hitting it hard. And by doing that, I noticed more and more pain in my foot over time. And they had told me, you know, years down the road, there's a chance we'll have to remove your remaining toes. You're gonna have arthritis. all of that and I just kept training through the pain for a while till it got a little much. So I went and saw a doctor, saw a surgeon, and ⁓ I was okay, like let's take these toes off. I'm training, I'm testing. And he says, Well it's it's not that simple. We did some x rays. Because of the extensive damage from the previous injury and arthritis and tons of scar tissue and just overuse, ⁓ he said, No, ⁓ we're actually gonna have to remove half of your foot, not just the toes. ⁓ the the bone heads actually started degrading, ⁓ the remaining bone heads. So he's basically the way he described it is like you're walking on gravel and Chris: ⁓ they're not. Darren: It's not going to last much longer. So we have option A is to leave it, and you just kind of go through and we build you footbeds and see how you do. Option B was a transmetatarsal amputation. So half the foot. So it's actually ⁓ two inches behind the toes into the foot. and option three was a below the knee amputation, if that didn't work. So We decided on a transmetatarsal, ⁓ which I had ⁓ just over a year, actually 16 months ago. ⁓ which you know, I was good with it, I was okay with it. I spoke with ⁓ prosthetic specialist, the prosthetist who builds prosthetics. ⁓ we kind of worked it out and figured out something for me because I'm pretty active. this type of amputation is typically it's not from trauma. It's usually from infection or ⁓ you know diabetes, ⁓ neuropathies. So people that get this are much older in life. They're not as active. ⁓ So there are some downsides to this type of amputation. You know, they're they're basically you're cutting the bone halfway, so they're sharp bone ends sticking out. So he's like, you're limited to you can never stand on your toes, because they're gonna poke right through the skin. Right? Or you don't have toes, but you can't stand up, you know, on that. So he built me ⁓ so we we we actually discussed the pros and cons of Chris: Right. Darren: transmetatarsal amputation and also ⁓ a below the knee ⁓ and ⁓ you know what's better obviously i want to keep my foot i don't want to deal with the headaches of below the knee ⁓ but he actually said it's ⁓ it's more efficient and you people do better with a below the knee amputation ⁓ younger people ⁓ the wrist yeah which i thought was kind of crazy too right Chris: ⁓ wow. Okay, that was Darren: He says statistics kind of show he said ⁓ you know in the surgeon, ⁓ I'm a different kind of case. And he's like, You're that one percent that they're confident, you know, you'll do well with it. ⁓ But a ⁓ a transmetatarsin amputation is actually considered a transient ⁓ amputation or a temporary amputation, which I thought was crazy. He said most people that get that eventually over time still have to go above below the knee. ⁓ Yeah. So I I've learned a ton in this ⁓ in this arena. But ⁓ you know, he it The thing about that, if I just went to a below a knee, he's like, You can't go back either. We can't put it back on. So with with that being said, I opted last year for ⁓ a transmet amputation. ⁓ rehabbed it, ⁓ did very well. They told me it was gonna be a year recovery. ⁓ I told myself it was gonna be six months and just like, you don't know me, I'm gonna I I'm gonna make it. And actually within three months I went ⁓ wake surfing and mountain biking a couple you know, ⁓ like five months later and so completely healed in six months. It's and and I attribute that to you know kind of the upbringing, but also like the fire service, you know, ⁓ just kind of getting out there and doing it and that that kind of mindset. ⁓ Chris: ⁓ wow. Right. Darren: Yeah, and and again they even told me they're like you're never I was told ⁓ by a couple of the professionals again, you're you're never gonna run again with this amputation. ⁓ you can't get up on your toe, you have no spring, you have no lever, so you can't run. ⁓ he said surfing is gonna be next to impossible if you can do that. ⁓ it's just you don't have the platform. ⁓ like, well Chris: Mm-hmm. Darren: Again, I'm I'm out to prove you wrong. I respect your decision. And I mean I again my my surgeon was incredible. Yes, yeah, exactly. Like my you know, my prosthetist, ⁓ I got real lucky with the surgeon and the prosthetists. ⁓ they're incredible. And so my hat's off to them. They did a great job. ⁓ the prosthetist actually, ⁓ when we started working on my prosthetic, you know, he's like, How active are you? He was ⁓ he was on the American Ninja Warrior. Chris: I especially disagree with you. Darren: show so right so like I'm working with you because you know what I need and I think that's just cool right so so that's the guy right so he knows what athletes need right ⁓ I'm like well consider me you know I'm not an consider me an athlete I'm not but consider me one ⁓ I I want to be able to do that stuff so yeah ⁓ and that's kind of the Chris: That's that's fucking awesome. And you And that for an American Ninja Warrior. That's even better. That's that's awesome. Darren: my road to there. And really after that, after my rehabbing, it kind of dawned on me that you know what, now I ⁓ I've gone through two amputations, I've gone through PTSD. Maybe I have a bigger calling. Right. And I I think at that point I was like You know what? I need to tell my story. I need to I wanna I wanna coach people through this. ⁓ especially, and so my whole realm now is ⁓ coaching people to overcome their challenges, right, through mindset, resilience, mental performance, but specifically first responders, veterans, and amputees. Because I have lived experience in two of those three fields, right? Like And I think that goes a long way, you know, like I feel like you really have to walk in those shoes to ⁓ to be able to coach someone. People are gonna follow you if they've done it, right? You're not gonna trust a fire officer who only read a book on it, right? You're gonna trust the guy that's been in the you know, been in those fires, been in that that world, right? That's the guy you trust. ⁓ Not the chief that took a bunch of tests and went up went up the ranks through, you know, another realm. ⁓ he he's good at his job, but he's not good on the fire ground per se, right? Chris: EPES. Darren: So Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. And and that that all ties into this, you know, and on your f on the form I have everyone fill out, you you put silence can cost everything. And you kinda covered that a minute ago. ⁓ so when did you first realize you weren't just carrying the stress home from the job, you were losing pieces of yourself? Darren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, yeah. No, that's that's a great question. Let's dive into that. It I s I really just noticed change when I was still in the fire service. I w started getting you know, my temper got shorter. I was more bitter with my wife and kids, you know. I I wasn't as patient as I should have been. ⁓ at work, when you're surrounded by Chris: I know you covered a little bit, but Darren: Firehouse full of six, seven, eight people, right? There's always laughing. There's always fun. You're, you know, you're busting each other's balls all day long, right? ⁓ so I didn't really notice it then, but when I would come home, I would sometimes still act that way for a little while. You know, my wife would constantly remind me, like, you're not at the firehouse, your two-year-old daughter's in the kitchen. Please stop dropping the F-bomb. You know. ⁓ Yeah, right. So I but I at that time I would also I mean, it's exhausting being up all night in a busy firehouse on a busy medic unit, you know, running those all those calls, ⁓ and then coming home and putting dad face on. And dad hat. ⁓ again, you know, my wife was a nurse, so there was a lot of times when we had our first daughter, I would get home, she'd go off and be gone for a 12-hour shift in an ER. And so now I'm watching a two-year-old after being on a 48-hour shift, just getting my ass handed to me. ⁓ not a great idea, right? And so I was tired. We realized this, like, I need sleep. I shouldn't be watching the, you know, baby. ⁓ we didn't have any family in that area. You know, we had some neighbors that helped. ⁓ but my wife was lucky enough she was able to change her schedule to not work on the day I got home so I could rest. And she would do her shifts in the middle of my, you know, we worked the forty eight ninety six. ⁓ so I would have four days off. She would work the two middle days. ⁓ Chris: Makes it. Darren: Which which really helped out. And if she picked up some overtime or something, it would be that last day. So yeah. So our schedule was was great once we figured it out. But I noticed I started I started drinking more because I was remodeling our house at the same time and trying to keep busy and realizing what I was doing not at the time, but if I was at home and it was quiet. my mind would go to those bad calls. And if I kept myself busy, I didn't have to think about those calls. And that's a problem, right? Because you can only ⁓ that and you know one of those red flags I talked about, ⁓ avoidance. ⁓ you know, so that was that was it. ⁓ and then when we moved ⁓ you know, I got out of the fire service. I did handyman work thinking I'm just gonna I'll do whatever to get by. I'm out of the fire service now, so I don't have to do that. What I didn't realize is I lost my identity. I identified as a firefighter and a paramedic. And not as a dad, not as a husband, and that was detrimental because when I lost the fire service, I lost my fire family. Now I have nothing and I had trauma that I couldn't process. ⁓ Chris: I think that's sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think that a lot of us ⁓ once we realize we have the issues that we have, ⁓ from this service is you know, I I found out myself had PTSD and that's why I started this whole podcast. and the losing, like you said, the family of leaving from offshore. I had a family of medics, I had a family on the ship that I dealt with every day and Darren: Yeah, no, no, that's good. Yeah, right. Chris: It was just it it felt so weird coming home and not being able to be the same person I thought I was because I was like you said, I I took that identity on. I was a medic, I was the offshore medic. I wasn't someone else. And we I don't know if it's just our fields that do that or every field, but ⁓ you know, I we d we do identify as our jobs and I think that's some of our biggest downfalls. Darren: Yeah. ⁓ I totally agree. ⁓ and I think I I think the military does that as well, you know, ⁓ because you're you're younger when you get into these careers. They are traumatic. ⁓ one of those things when when I work with someone in the military, that you know, there's a saying in the Marines, once a Marine, always a Marine. Right? And that's a very proud statement. Chris: And as well. Right. Darren: It's also a very dangerous statement. Right. And I know t I have friends who are Marines. I I worked with some, you know, a bunch and totally respect what they did and who they are. But you can't like you're told at that point, you're 18 years old, you're always gonna be a Marine. And it's a pride thing, but it's I don't think they understand that it's a dangerous line when when you are. And Chris: Little bit. Darren: I was a firefighter. I was a paramedic. My whole life lived around it. And think, honestly, I think a lot of people identify that. You know, even, you know, there I'm sure there's some accountants out there. Like, I'm an accountant. I I'm a salesman. I I do sales. It's still dangerous because you're not, you're anyone who identifies as a job, that's you're not a job, you're a human, you're a person. You do the work, you may love the work, you may be passionate about it. You're still Chris: Y'all. Darren: You know, I'm still Darren. I'm a father of two teenage girls. I'm a husband. Right? Yeah. Chris: Exactly. And I think, you know, that's what a lot of us miss in the end on the PTSD side of things. Is you know you know, we we have our day to day that we don't realize is PTSD and then we look back on it as holy shit, I just missed all of that. ⁓ Darren: Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. And and I think we're the we're the worst at looking in the mirror too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that yeah. Chris: That that's true, you know. And that's actually my next question for you is, you know, what did PTSD look like day to day to you? Not the textbook version, ⁓ but you know, at home, on the s on shift, on the truck, or hell, even at two o'clock in the morning when you're waking up like, crap, I remember that call, you know. Darren: Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ man, everywhere, right? All of that. But at home, ⁓ like I said, I was just I was short with my kids. ⁓ you know, and ⁓ with my wife, I was constantly tired, but I had to stay busy. And that's just right, it I I complained that I'm exhausted. I just want to sit. I don't want to you know, everything was too loud for me. I just noticed that all of a sudden if I was in like crowds, I would just get anxious and I w need to leave. ⁓ and I've never had that before. I used to be the guy in the crowd, you know, and now I I don't want anything to do with that. ⁓ so it showed up all of there. I had trouble sleeping. I s ⁓ and honestly I still have trouble sleeping. ⁓ you know. I would I'm always awake at three o'clock in the morning. ⁓ still to this day, most you know, most nights. but what I would find is I I could always fall asleep, ⁓ for the most part, but I was always awake two or three in the in the morning thinking about that call and never being able to go back back to sleep. ⁓ there was a point actually earlier on where I would have a drink before bed and that lead to two and then four and and there was a short period where I I drink myself to sleep ⁓ for the most part and that's you know it's humiliating to say but it's the truth and I didn't want I don't want my kids seeing that, my wife seeing that. ⁓ I started kind of hiding my drinking. You know, ⁓ no one's home. What's a quick shot? ⁓ and you know, and ⁓ yeah, had I would get home from you know one job that I I had doing construction, I was ⁓ building wood boats, which was honestly really cool. But I'd come home take a shower and I it it really was it was a fun job. I did that for a while until they were started doing layoffs, ⁓ like handmade wood boats and they were like Chris: That's not the awesome. Darren: Incredible, because I could zone out, and that was actually therapeutic in a way, because you're doing a lot of sanding and like hand planing, ⁓ where I could zone out for a little while and focus on a craft, which actually did help. ⁓ but I'd get off work, come home, take a shower, I'd grab a a shower beer. ⁓ and then I'd go have another one, and then I'd have one, you know, before dinner and then with dinner. And I I just noticed f I was more distant with my family. Like even eating dinner with my kids and my wife, I was physically there, but I don't know what they were talking about. I was staring at a wall. And all of that was just drifting away. My w my wife kept asking me, Why can't you be happy? And I it took me so long to figure out what those words meant. And I would get kinda angry, like, you just d you know, I I'd throw blame. Like, you're the reason we moved here and I can't, you know, be a fireman anymore. And we chose this. And she's absolutely right. I mean, she is my biggest supporter, to be quite honest. ⁓ which, you know, looking back was all those little things. I would hear We had a neighbor across the street when I was actually still a firefighter. ⁓ there was she would call her kids in for dinner. ⁓ and I remember running a horrific call with a child that had the same name as one of them. And that child died. And so, and it was probably the worst call I've ever been on. ⁓ it was definitely top three, if not the worst call I've ever been on. ⁓ Chris: ⁓ wow. Darren: And so, yeah, that child had died. ⁓ a ⁓ lot of unanswered questions. and I would hear her go out and just call him in for dinner. But what I heard was not her voice just calling in for dinner. I heard the other mother screaming that voice. You know. And we hear stories of like, you know, and I was one, if I saw a hurt or Chris: From the name. Darren: you know, a deceased child, I saw my daughter's face on that child. So I had, you know, I don't know if you want to call it a hallucination. I just saw like all of these things to realize like I I can't do this job anymore. And that's why I left. ⁓ and that followed me, you know, up until I started getting help. So yeah, my day today was just crazy at at home. Chris: What do you guys think? Darren: you know, day to day in the firehouse, you could mask it with humor. And I I did. I masked it with humor. ⁓ all you know, I every now and then you'd pick up on somebody like, ⁓ maybe they're having a bad day and that's it. And then you look back and like I remember there was ⁓ there was one time where our department was having seven divorces at once. ⁓ Chris: Geez. Darren: active divorces and so the department noticed it and they actually did a great job. They they brought in like a marriage counselor for like a catered dinner and and just invited, hey, we're bringing this in just to go sit and listen. Which was really cool. And actually my wife and I went. ⁓ which it was really cool. W back then, ⁓ Chris: That is real. Darren: And I have to my hats off to this department is they've done a lot with mental health. ⁓ but they did that. And it was right around the same time as I walked in on a on a trade or an overtime shift. So I'm working with a bunch of different guys. and I I was kind of you know, I'm grumpy that morning. So I throw in out some jokes and ⁓ the lieutenant, who's a buddy of mine, picked up on it. ⁓ you know, complaining about ⁓ my wife, my wife, you know, everyone does that, right? ⁓ well he called me at his office later that afternoon. He's like, What's going on at home? Like, ⁓ he's like, your comments, what's going on at home? And so I sat down and taught, you know, it's friend of mine, and we were medics together for a while, and ⁓ it was really good conversation. I could kind of let up you know, let the guard off a little bit and ⁓ he recommended a book to read and it's just because he had gone through a divorce so he picked up on some of this stuff. Right. He experienced it. So ⁓ it was a good eye opener for me. Like, ⁓ I need to work on this. And then right around that time the department had that that thing with all those active divorces going on. And so it's little things that you can kinda pick up on that you know really It ⁓ made me think a little bit more about it. But yeah, every aspect of life, man. Chris: Yeah, and I think I think you hit the nail on the head too earlier is the biggest part for all of us that are able to survive it is you gotta have a good backbone. You have to have a good support system. Without that support system, you're not gonna make it. And that's that that's one thing that I've noticed of the suicides of people I know, ⁓ that's Darren: Yes. Chris: where it fails is their spouses aren't supportive. Their friends don't pay attention. and it just i it I think in the end that comes to a head and you know, I like I said in my earlier podcast, just pain is only a temporary thing. It it may be a long process as you've dealt with your whole life. I'm not trying to down at all. But it is only temporary and Darren: Right. Right. Yeah. Chris: you're taking a permanent solution to a temporary problem. That is not what you need to do. Darren: Right. No, I totally agree. ⁓ yeah, it's it's crazy. I and and I agree completely agree with you on that. ⁓ up here, there's a ⁓ actually involved ⁓ we we noticed a lot of of issues in Court d'Alene. I don't know. ⁓ there was ⁓ an incident just over a year ago now where ⁓ three firefighters were shot ⁓ from a ⁓ Chris: Damn, okay. Darren: Yeah, so somebody lit a wildland fire on purpose. They responded, and then he opened gunfire on ⁓ killed two, and ⁓ seriously injured one who had to medically retire. ⁓ since then the commun you know, we're a small small community. ⁓ a lot of PTSD stuff came out of that call, obviously. and A huge outpouring. Well there's a ⁓ there was a bunch of ⁓ trauma therapists that got together. And they had actually been planning this prior to, but this kind of ignited this this team that they put together. So there's ⁓ a bunch of trauma therapists. It's a it's a first responder clinician support team is basically what it is. ⁓ so now they respond to they they're in all of the ⁓ firehouses, police stations in in the five northernmost counties of Idaho right now. ⁓ and branching into Washington actually. But what they do is they're involved in all the SISMs, all of the the talks. They go in and visit the firehouses to get to know, you know, or or the ⁓ sheriff stations, police stations, to get to know all the first responders, ⁓ put on a bunch of trainings. They'll do ride-alongs. And along with that, they have actually ⁓ handpicked a bunch of mentors. And ⁓ so I was actually handpicked to be a mentor, ⁓ as the the intermediary, basically. So, you know, a lot of a lot of first responders don't want to talk to a therapist, right? We're not gonna admit what we talk about at the at the kitchen table. Like that doesn't leave the firehouse a lot of times, right? ⁓ but Chris: That's cool. Darren: People, you know, the first responders can trust one of their own. Right. And so they put this mentor group and we were all handpicked and we've all gone through therapy and had our incidents. And so they can contact us ⁓ for support and we become their backbone. Chris: That's cool. Darren: So to speak, right? ⁓ so there's several firefighters, several police officers, ⁓ some ex-military, ⁓ both men and women. ⁓ and then my my wife is actually on the team as the spouse of the first responder. So now they've opened it up to the spouses. Yeah, which is really cool. Because quite honestly, the spouses go through just as much trauma as as the person, if not more, right? I put my wife through hell. Chris: ⁓ that Darren: She had to keep right, she had to keep the family together, you know, be the wife, be my backbone, and help our kids and work a full-time job. So ⁓ yeah, the spouse is needed too. So a program like that is incredible and it's it's really successful so far. Chris: No. That's amazing. And and I think you kinda you you touched on what I think as well as I don't think we give the spouses of first responders ⁓ the kudos or the praise ⁓ that they honestly deserve. You know, we we as first responders beat the hell out of them. And they didn't sign up for this. You know, they they willingly deal with our bullshit day in, day out. Darren: Yeah. Right. And we need to. Right. No. Chris: And even if we don't notice, like you were saying earlier, you know, the beginning of the PTSD is you're you're blowing up on people, you're you're always eas so easily angriated that that it it it it it affects your family and they're still there by your side the whole time, you know. So kudos to all of y'all out there. Darren: Yeah, thanks. That's it's it's such a cool program. ⁓ I'm hoping it goes worldwide, you know. ⁓ there's there's other large ⁓ larger departments looking at that model and ⁓ it's it's still new, but it's incredible and it it doesn't take place of peer support. You know, everyone has their peer support teams, it's Chris: That would be fantastic. Darren: You know, it builds on it and with it. And I think that's important, right? ⁓ 'cause we we know I mean some departments have a great s peer support, other departments don't. ⁓ that's unfort right, right. And ⁓ you know, I I have a buddy who's ⁓ who's a cop, ⁓ he was a firefighter, now a cop and he's struggling and ⁓ he'll call me, he'll call other people, but he he's like their peer support team Chris: Yeah. It's either good or it's not. Darren: The wrong people are in it and it's dangerous that way, unfortunately, right? ⁓ I I think it's a great thing to have, but just like anything, they can all be better, right? Every program could get better. And it and ⁓ an education up the ranks, ⁓ and acceptance of mental health, you know, up up the ranks. I think departments are getting very good at it and better now that it's it's out there more. ⁓ but I I think there's still a handful of higher ranks that ⁓ are still in the rub some dirt on it, suck it up, kid, this is the job mentality. Chris: Yeah, and that that's the that's another problem. ⁓ you know, and one thing I kinda wanna bring up too before we get too far away from this is ⁓ how from your perspective, you know, you've been doing this now for like you said, over a year of being a coach. ⁓ how can a spouse, partner, or even a coworker or a partner of the trucks ⁓ approach someone who's clearly changing ⁓ without making them shut down or get on the defensive. Darren: Right, that's that's difficult, right? It's very difficult. but offering support ⁓ as best you can, maybe bringing somebody else in that they trust. You know, ⁓ a lot of times when a spouse brings something up, because they're so close, it's easiest to argue with the person you love most. And that's weird, right? But it's ironic, but it's true. Maybe someone else you respect enough that you don't have that close as much closeness with, but someone who's walked through your shoes or walked through it together. So bringing in other peers. and you know, it's it's a it's different for everyone, and that's the hardest part. But I think someone who's searching for help, and that's another thing, is they have to want the help. That's step one. They have to want it. And some people go, you know, you go at different speeds. I took years to ask for help. ⁓ and that was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Harder than running in a burning building, harder than telling a parent their child has died. That's difficult. Like that's it sounds so stupid, but it was true in my case. ⁓ when they're ready. bringing someone in. And you know, there's there's support teams out there. ⁓ there's coaching. There all of this is out there. It's just asking for it and just finding finding that resource. ⁓ and it and really just accepting it. You know, I don't know if that answers it, but it's it's true. You just gotta you gotta want the help. You're not the only one that's going through it. There's Chris: It does. Darren: ⁓ i the statistics are are honestly insane. ⁓ you know they say roughly 30% of first responders have PTSD. I've read other studies that say more likely double it because those are the ones who admit it. Chris: Yeah, I've read a study once, I think it said eighty percent. Darren: Yeah, I I would honestly buy sixty to eighty percent have signs, right? and it's it's just in it's insane, and it's getting worse with you know, budget cuts and busier trucks, right? And so you're getting worn out faster. ⁓ and you go we go on different calls now. Like active shooters were not a common thing. And when I was in Denver Unfortunately, Colorado was like the active shooter capital of the country ⁓ for a long time. And yeah, and horrific. I was on one, ⁓ which wasn't any of the major ones. ⁓ and it honestly was a little terrifying because I was the first medic in ⁓ I was pinned down behind a vehicle taking care of a patient who had been shot numerous times. ⁓ Chris: Yeah. ⁓ I remember that one. Darren: So you don't that's not common, I understand that, but it's still like that kind of ruins your day for for a while, right? And ⁓ those stressors weren't out there as often as, you know, back in the eighties and nineties and or before when some of that leadership is now at the top, we're expected to do more than they were. Chris: Right. And I think that's kind of where the old culture kind of tree try come back is, you know, shut the hell up, keep working, shove it down. And they can fuse in my opinion, they can seem to confuse resiliency with that. And you know, there is a big difference between resiliency and you shutting up and keeping it going. Darren: Right, right. ⁓ yeah, and I I totally agree with you. I think those services you have to have some mental toughness. You do. ⁓ but you can also be human. And asking for help is okay. ⁓ and getting a person support because and you said earlier like the last thing we want is someone to go to a dark spot and end their life all because they were too scared to ask for help. Or didn't even know they could. ⁓ and it's a that's a dark, dark spot to be in for a long time. Chris: So I know you you said you figured out the PTSD after you got out of service. Or out out of the fire service, I mean. Not service, but ⁓ so would you have been scared to have approached your leadership with this? You know, I I I I kind of have a feeling on this, ⁓ that i if we as responders go to captains, lieutenants, whatever Darren: Yeah. Chris: they're gonna wind up pulling us off the trucks. They're gonna wind up pulling us off the job and that's another thing that I I think needs to be fixed in the end on that as well. I if you don't mind me asking you on that that one. Darren: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I you know, again, I didn't know I had it. However, ⁓ there were people that you could you could see, but there was always I know I had a had a partner for a while, he would he would joke, but I also know ⁓ like he has some mental health stuff going on. And we would we would say, like, ⁓ you admit this, I'm off I'm I'm out of a job. I'm off the truck, you know? Chris: Right. Darren: You know, and and it's just ⁓ it's sad to have a fear because you worked so hard, it is your career. and I I will say the department I was at was very good and now is very good at it. ⁓ but we had ⁓ you know there was there was one in s one time ⁓ they had put out when we went to the forty eight ninety six schedule years ago, ⁓ that if the medics got beat up overnight or certain houses just got beat up, you could swap with another crew to get a little bit of sleep. ⁓ and there was one like series of weeks that we were working just non-stop beat up and then this whole day I I can't even remember how many calls or what calls I ran all day but we're in the middle of the night we run a call and I went and we were running with a different station engine. ⁓ and I went to the engine ⁓ lieutenant and said I need a break. I can't even concentrate on this call. Can you swap me out? He said, Yeah, go to this, you know, run this call and go to this firehouse and we'll bring this other medic up. ⁓ she's great. We did that next set. I got I got a bunch of shit. Can you handle it, buddy? You too tired. These are from my my brothers. You know, and they're they're busting my balls, and and some of the guys get it. But it Chris: Right. But sometimes it it hur it it hair it g it hits you differently when it comes from your feet. Darren: Exactly. And and the thing is, is I mean, there's always the Monday morning quarterback. ⁓ and some of the upper level chiefs on different in shifts, you know, like, ⁓ well, so this happened and they may blow it out of proportion. Like, well, I'm not ever sending one of my medics home. And certain scenarios you'd have that Monday Monday morning quarterback Like, well B shift did this, well C shift's never doing that. And that's coming from a leader. And then when you have a rookie in there or a younger guy in there, ⁓ they're learning that attitude. And ⁓ not great. ⁓ you know, I know again in the fire service and I feel like they are better at it than the law enforcement group, ⁓ at accepting the mental health. ⁓ from what my in my personal opinion, what I've seen and what I've heard around the the areas. ⁓ my hope is that it gets better. You know, 'cause quite honestly, I feel like ⁓ law enforcement is has more eyes on them and is more stressed than than fire. So yeah. Yeah. Chris: Yeah, just a little. J just a little. And you know, so I wish they would actually start training more, you know, in the academies or recruit schools, ⁓ about the mental health, you know, ⁓ the bad cause, the actual fatigue from you the mental fatigue you're going to wind up with from this job. ⁓ do you ⁓ do you agree that they should be teaching that more in the in schools? Darren: Absolutely. Yeah, they do. And ⁓ I've heard that some are are better, but ⁓ you know, I actually it it it's it's so needed. It used to be a 30 minute class in a five hundred hour academy, you know. That's not enough. ⁓ and it's probably on day one. Chris: I doesn't think kind of but Darren: and where you're just not learning anything yet on day one. So ⁓ I do know like even with with my coaching, I have reached out to a lot of ⁓ some departments ⁓ actually fairly recently offering ⁓ to speak to their academies and at their trainings as part of my, you know, motivational speaking stuff that I I'm doing through coaching as well is speaking at these, specifically contacting and trying to get in with ⁓ with local departments in their academy. Yeah. Chris: That's awesome. So ha what would a properly funded wellness program include beyond this stupid godforsaken posters? ⁓ on a bulletin board? Darren: Right. I like that I like how you put that, yeah. ⁓ yeah, w well it's total body wellness, right? A lot of departments are putting in gyms. Great. Put in put in fitness centers, put in gyms. ⁓ I know some that are putting in ⁓ saunas. You know, there's actually a ton of studies on ⁓ sauna and ⁓ and cold therapy, like cold plunging, ⁓ for stress relief. Chris: ⁓ wow. Darren: And ⁓ for stress relief, but also especially saunas as ⁓ detoxifying. So as you're you know, you're actually sweating and getting those toxins that you are in all day, every day, it actually helps with that. So some departments are putting in saunas along with gyms, but the missing component is the mental health because the body is is just that if you are not mentally healthy, you're not physically healthy either. Right? You can look physically fit, you can run and do you know all that, but you're not it the whole body's a system and it all works together. Right. ⁓ so I think just as much funding needs to be in the mental health and it could be simply bring in a therapist now and then or or offer better than just EAP and peer support. Chris: Right. And that's I think that's the biggest Darren: get get guys off shift, you know. ⁓ I do know, you know, ⁓ I mean some are looking into ⁓ some do better than others, ⁓ I can say, but it's still not the norm, right? And until I I feel like it has to get up to you know, into the union a little bit more. Maybe that's the way it goes, but also, I mean it stuff like this takes time and and I understand it. But ⁓ at least start now so it's out there and put the money where it needs to be. 'Cause not every department needs a shiny new truck for, you know ⁓ for for a chief that doesn't show up on the calls, right? Chris: True. ⁓ so how do how do schedules, sleep, staffing ⁓ you pretty much covered this just now, but how does schedule sleep staffing and mandatory overtime feed the mental health problem? Darren: ⁓ man. Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ it feeds it, right? ⁓ it does. You know, I ⁓ I've worked in the industry long enough. I've been on two different common schedules. and you know the forty eight ninety six, I honestly I was against it when we went it, but I learned to love it. The problem with it is you are up. Chris: Ha ha. Yeah. Darren: 48 hours sometimes. That's insane. ⁓ you know, trying to take care what I what I think doesn't happen is in a lot of departments, if you if they're if they have transport units, medics, ⁓ That medic unit is running with other stations as well. They're at the hospital longer. They're, you know, it's not like we used to we used to joke with our with our truckies all the time, right? They get up, they show up, they pick something up, and then they go home and go to bed, right? ⁓ that doesn't always happen with with the team and it is so it does feed it. I mean sleep is there's thousands of studies documenting sleep is important and it feeds directly to mental health. Diet, you know, nutrition has to be there. ⁓ I feel like nutrition is is better on the fire side now. It used to be just big spaghetti dinners all the time and you know and it it's gotten better, but for law enforcement, they're stuck in a car not moving much going through drive-thrus. It's terrible with the stress and all the the mandatory overtimes. I ⁓ you know staffing models. I don't know how to change it. hire more. There's some departments that are actually putting on four shifts or four platoon ⁓ shifts. The studies that I've read on that is actually it's better. So you're one day on, three days off. ⁓ a lot of the Documentation on PTSD is ⁓ related to PTSD, is your brain takes 24 to 48 hours to process a trauma, to start to process. So if you're experiencing those and you are you're that one-on, two off, one on, two off shift, you just started processing before you're getting back to work. And so you're never you're dysregulated. ⁓ so I think new different shifts, different hours, ⁓ but it definitely all of it does contribute to mental health. And so that's why we need a buffer in there to at least accept if we're gonna run these shifts, what how what are we gonna do to mental health? Chris: So you introduce yourself as a family man first, husband, father, two daughters, outdoorsman, coach, and advocates advocate. Someone with a one hell of a d darkness of humor, which is awesome. You know, that and that order order that that order you set it in matters. ⁓ yes, I wrote that down earlier. But how does Darren the husband and the father show up differently now than he did during the worst years? Darren: Yeah. Right. That's awesome. I am that's a great question, by the way. ⁓ I am 100% a husband and a father first. ⁓ my family is everything. I saw the damage I did. I am trying to undo what I can, and I'm also very aware that there's some damage I can't undo. ⁓ and I regret that every day. But I can be the best father from today on. ⁓ the best husband from today on. And I show up to all of their ⁓ they're both gym my daughters are gymnasts. I'm at every gymnastics tournament event. ⁓ I'm involved with their lives because they get one father. And I was absent for some of that time. ⁓ you know speaking to guys who love and live their job and there's nothing wrong with loving and living their job, but it's a job. Family comes first. And so now I'm yeah, you can replace a job. Can't replace a person, right? And we are all taught that. ⁓ you can replace a roof, you can replace a ladder, you can replace a truck. You're not replacing a person. So ⁓ you know it's that's who I am now and I want to be an example. kids. Right. I didn't have a great exam I had very little example growing up from my father until my stepfather came into my life many years later. Kids need that. I knew I needed that and I want to be that for my kids and my and my wife. Right? I want to be as healthy as I can. I want to be around as long as I can. I want to see them walk down the aisle. I want to see grandchildren. I want to see great grandchildren. So I have to be healthy And that, you know, by me being healthy, they will they'll follow suit. Chris: apologized for the version of you that survived. Darren: Yeah. I've I've apologized to my family profusely all the time. ⁓ and I I've apologized to myself. You know, I am I'm a completely different person than I was before. ⁓ I still have the fun jokes, I still, you know, I I can be that. But I also left that version behind and truly Firefighter Darren is dead. ⁓ and I mean that that the dark inside is gone. I through therapy, through help, that part of me is gone. ⁓ and I'm very aware that I won't ever go back to that dark place. The place I was in was so dark, so cold, so scary that I can't go back there. Chris: No that Darren: Right. ⁓ yeah. So now it's just encouraging and that's honestly that that's why I coach. That's why I wanna peop see people rise. I wanna give what everything I can to help people get out of where they're at and and overcome their challenges or you know, overcome whatever they need. ⁓ but you know, the the apology had to start with my entire family and then to myself. Chris: Gotcha. So before I close up, I like doing that this is something I just started doing with the past few podcasts. ⁓ I got a few quick hit questions. This is the first thing that comes to your mind after I ra after I ask. So what is the biggest lie of PTSD? Darren: ⁓ all right, let's do it. Biggest lie that ⁓ that I'm fine, that I'm okay. Chris: Biggest live burnout tells. Ha ha ha. Darren: That's a these are tough. ⁓ probably probably the same. You know, it's ⁓ yeah, that's that I'm fine, that I that I've got this, right? Chris: So one word for healing. Darren: S self acceptance. Chris: What does real resilience look like? Darren: That's gonna tie into self-acceptance too. Understanding who you are, and being able to rise and get up. But you have to know who you are and what you you know who you are first before you can before you can do that, before you can be resilient. But know that you don't have limits. Chris: Yeah, very true. So what should every firehouse stop saying? Darren: Suck it up, kid. This is the way it is. Chris: What should every firehouse start asking? Darren: What do you need? How can I serve you? Chris: Got two more for you. So can people rebuild after they lose the job, the identity, or part of themselves? And you are proof of this that they can. But I want your opinion. Darren: Right. Yes, they absolutely can. ⁓ and you can come back a better, stronger version. Chris: Okay. Perfect. So what still makes you laugh when life gets heavy? Darren: I can still laugh about really anything, you know. I I can laugh at myself, I think. I think I can definitely laugh at myself. ⁓ it's that self ownership. Once you figure out who you are, you know, and and accept all the bad that happened and turn it into good and laugh all the way, you know. Always improve, yeah, exactly. Chris: Always improve. So Darren, picture the per the responder you described earlier, you know, alone at two in the morning, isolated, using alcohol or drugs to shut everything off, convinced nobody would understand what the hell they're asking for, what they need, and that help would cost just too much. You know what science can cost. You also know what it means to rebuild after being an old life is and gone. What does that person need to hear from you after listening to this today before they make another decision alone? Darren: That you are not alone. A lot of people have gone through this. There are so many people that can help. And all you have to do is ask for it. Or accept if someone is trying to help you, just accept it. Life is so much better when you let that in. ⁓ and we've all been down that dark spot and Really there's one way out of there's two ways out of it and one is the way to get out, and that's just accepting and asking for help. One's permanent and you don't want to go that route. Chris: Exactly. So if people want to learn more about you or follow your work, learn more about coaching, ⁓ get coaching from you. ⁓ or hell just reach out and say to bullshit with you. How or where would they go for that? Darren: ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ I have a website. ⁓ my company name is Ashes to Ascent Coaching. ⁓ just yeah, search ⁓ the internet ashes to ascent.com. ⁓ I'm on Inst okay, on on Instagram. and my email is Darren at ashes to ascent dot com. And ⁓ yeah, for anybody just who's struggling. Chris: I've got the things at all. Darren: wants to do ⁓ know mindset resilience mental performance coaching. I offer that I offer group coaching, motivational speaking. If your department wants a speaker or you know an event of any kind, I'd be happy to do that. Or like you said, if you just if you're struggling and need to reach out, send me an email. I'd love to talk with you. Chris: Thank you for that. And that that that means a lot, you know. Darren: Yeah. And I I do offer so one thing I I wanted to mention, I do offer discounts ⁓ for coaching for first responders and veterans. So if you think it's too expensive, there's a hefty discount because my heart is truly in it. Chris: You lived it. You've been through it. You knew what we're going through. And that that to me s is something that will build more trust. A as you said earlier. I've always wanted to go back to therapist school, but ain't no way in hell I can afford it. So Darren: I have and Right. This is a lot cheaper than therapy. Yeah. Chris: Ha ha ha. Well, thank you for being honest ⁓ about the parts that would have been easier to turn into a polished, you know, resiliency speech. ⁓ thank you for being here. I really appreciated it. Darren: Yeah, well thank you. I had a I I had a great time and I I love doing this. So yeah, if anyone ⁓ needs help, reach out and I had a I had a blast. It was a lot of fun, Chris. Chris: Thank you. Hit stop. If this thing