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Affordable tips to break the taboo of your 20s · Two Broke Chicks

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Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land, Always was, always
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Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land. Hey Chicks, I'm sal and I'm
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Speaker 1: out and this is two Broke Chicks, the show that
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Speaker 1: shares life lessons and tips to help make you.
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Speaker 2: Rich in life.
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Speaker 3: And welcome back to the show.
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Speaker 4: The wonderful, amazing, brave, talented, intelligent, hot, funny.
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Speaker 2: Do I even need to say anymore?
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Speaker 3: Janna ferguson Friend of the Pod.
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Speaker 2: We are so excited to have you on because it's.
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Speaker 3: Been a long time. Two I think it's been a year.
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Speaker 3: I think it was a year. That's crazy.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, not that we need an excuse to have you
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Speaker 4: on ever, But it's a very special occasion because this
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Speaker 4: week you release your new book, Taboo.
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Speaker 3: It's very exciting. It came out on Tuesday of this week.
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Speaker 3: It's the if you see it in sols of the
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Speaker 3: bright pink book with the red X on it.
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Speaker 2: It's sexy.
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Speaker 3: It's sexy. I mean it's supposed to send out I
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Speaker 3: think it does that. But it's really sex dating relationships,
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Speaker 3: like all the topics that women don't talk about but should.
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Speaker 4: And we're going to get into how to have taboo
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Speaker 4: conversations and some of those topics. But before we get
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Speaker 4: into the juicy stuff, we start with a life lesson
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Speaker 4: of the week.
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Speaker 2: So, as our guest of honor, would you like to
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Speaker 2: kick us off?
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Speaker 3: I think, like in true taboo form, the whole idea
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Speaker 3: of the book and what I'm trying to channel this
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Speaker 3: week is still this idea that we all have so
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Speaker 3: much shame and in order to just mental that, like
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Speaker 3: you have to use vulnerability. And I feel like this
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Speaker 3: week it's kind of interesting, like my professional life and
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Speaker 3: personal life really reflect what's happening in the book as well,
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Speaker 3: like A, and now Trump has just been elected president
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Speaker 3: in the US, and I think we're all scared and
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Speaker 3: frightened and like.
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Speaker 2: Just quite disillusioned angry.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we kind of have to live in that
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Speaker 3: fear and look at the feelings that we have around
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Speaker 3: shame towards our bodies, towards sex and dating, towards how
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Speaker 3: we live our lives generally, and realize that we have
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Speaker 3: to lead into that vulnerability and push forward in order
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Speaker 3: to retain like that sliver of hope.
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Speaker 1: I love being vulnerable. Yeah, It's very easy to kind
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Speaker 1: of be a goofy girl. And I love when you
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Speaker 1: kind of sit with someone and you just will randomly
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Speaker 1: give them a really genuine compliment.
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Speaker 2: Like this morning, I.
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Speaker 1: Just texted my boyfriend just Edible, and I send him
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Speaker 1: like maybe a kind of long age text message, just
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Speaker 1: telling him how happy I am and how him and
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Speaker 1: how like even just sleeping at yours last night, I
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Speaker 1: missed him so much, Or like when we went for
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Speaker 1: a sleepover once and I just turned to you and
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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm having so much fun with you.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, and you like it.
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Speaker 1: Like I just love those little moments where you can
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Speaker 1: be a bit more. Obviously those are very positive, but they.
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Speaker 3: Are a vulnerable moment because it can be uncomfortable to
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Speaker 3: like deliver reflection and have intimacy. Right, Yeah, those are
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Speaker 3: just different forms of that. There's negative and positive layers
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Speaker 3: of vulnerability. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I think the moments when you have like a really
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Speaker 1: positive response to vulnerability, whether or not it's positive or negative,
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Speaker 1: in those moments that you are being vulnerable, it's just
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Speaker 1: the best.
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Speaker 3: Yes, everyone tell.
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Speaker 1: Everyone you love them, cake and everyone. Honest, I'm getting
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Speaker 1: my period so and that this is perfect timing.
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Speaker 2: Okay, what's yours, Sally Valley? Mine is?
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Speaker 4: Last night I was having a conversation with some friends
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Speaker 4: and we had all we're all sort of in like
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Speaker 4: long term relationships, I guess, and one of them was like, oh,
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Speaker 4: do you mind if I ask you.
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Speaker 2: How's the intimacy stilling your relationship?
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Speaker 4: And I was like, Oh, to be honest, like it
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Speaker 4: hasn't really changed too much, Like I feel like it's
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Speaker 4: been pretty consistent over the course of the relationship, but
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Speaker 4: like it's great. I was like, I feel like we
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Speaker 4: have really good chemistry together. And the inference from that
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Speaker 4: was like, oh, well, you guys have been together for
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Speaker 4: sixteen years, so surely you don't sleep together anymore, or
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Speaker 4: you don't have intimacy, or it's moved more into like
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Speaker 4: a friendship.
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Speaker 3: It's like monotonous, or it's like there's something boring about it.
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Speaker 3: That's the assumption from a lot of people.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, which is like fine, But I also I'm like,
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Speaker 4: I feel like we need to shake that up because
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Speaker 4: I think that, of course, people's relationships go through different
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Speaker 4: phases and they ebb and flow, and you're not always
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Speaker 4: going to be wanting to like jump each other's bones
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Speaker 4: twenty four to seven, or maybe that was never the case,
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Speaker 4: but I think a lot of people like, oh, well,
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Speaker 4: i've been with somebody for three years. That means that
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Speaker 4: it's completely normal if we're not intimate either whether it's
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Speaker 4: physical or even emotional. And people just expect that your
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Speaker 4: relationship will go into this place where you sort of
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Speaker 4: just end up being friends.
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Speaker 2: And that's like a bit of an assumption that we
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Speaker 2: all have.
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Speaker 4: And it just kind of like sparks something in my
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Speaker 4: brain last night that I was like, I actually have
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Speaker 4: had this conversation with quite a few people and they're
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Speaker 4: always really surprised.
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Speaker 2: I feel like we need to question that more.
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Speaker 4: I know that not every relationship is the same, not
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Speaker 4: everybody's love languages are the same, but just think about
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Speaker 4: like what you want out of a relationship, and you
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Speaker 4: don't have to get to that three or five year
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Speaker 4: mark and then be like okay, cool, we just like.
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Speaker 2: Say hi to each other and give each other a
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Speaker 2: kiss on the cheek.
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Speaker 4: If you want more than that, yeah, I think it's
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Speaker 4: just like reminding yourself to tune into what you want
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Speaker 4: from a relationship, and if you feel like you're not
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Speaker 4: getting that, question that and see if.
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Speaker 2: There's something you can do, because I think, yeah, a
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Speaker 2: lot of us take that for granted.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, cuddles, bagels and presents, Yes, yeah, that's what I mean.
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Speaker 2: And my cat and my kids. Okay, what's yours?
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Speaker 3: Okay?
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Speaker 2: Mine?
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Speaker 1: Oh god, I watched a movie this week and it
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Speaker 1: fucking rocked me, Like it rocked me to my core.
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Speaker 3: I was crying.
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Speaker 1: No exaggeration. I know I'm an exaggerator, but this isn't one.
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Speaker 1: For like twenty minutes after this movie, my mom was
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Speaker 1: trying to call me just to talk, and I was like,
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Speaker 1: I can't talk right now.
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Speaker 2: It's got Aubrey Plaza.
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Speaker 1: I am obsessed with her in it, and it's called
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Speaker 1: My Old Ass, And I won't give too much away,
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Speaker 1: but basically, the main character, who is younger, takes shrooms
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Speaker 1: and then meets her older version of herself and it's
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Speaker 1: about like the guy, I'm gonna start crying. So there's
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Speaker 1: one point in the movie that a character says, do
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Speaker 1: you remember the last time you went out with friends
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Speaker 1: as a kid and just played pretend the whole day?
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Speaker 1: And another character says like, yeah, I remember doing that
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Speaker 1: a lot, And then the other character I'm not going
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Speaker 1: to say names, says yeah, but do you remember the
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Speaker 1: very very last time you ever did it.
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Speaker 2: You're going to start crying now, And.
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Speaker 1: She says no, and he says, isn't that sad? You know,
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Speaker 1: to think there was a time when you were out
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Speaker 1: biking around with your friends, pretending you were getting chased
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Speaker 1: by zombies. You were just all dirty and sweaty and
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Speaker 1: having the best time, and then you went home and
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Speaker 1: parked your bike in the garage and went to bed,
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Speaker 1: not realizing that that was the last time you were
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Speaker 1: ever ever going to do that. And I just like,
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Speaker 1: I like this movie at that point in like wall
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Speaker 1: around there, because then I was trying to think. I
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Speaker 1: was trying to think about the very last time I
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Speaker 1: played pretend, and I was like trying to make myself
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Speaker 1: feel better being like you and soal like playing it's
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Speaker 1: like all the time, like we'll just do shit, but
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Speaker 1: it's like, truly, there is always going to be a
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Speaker 1: time that that's the last time you ever do that.
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Speaker 1: It's the last morning that you walk into somewhere used
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Speaker 1: to work, or it's the last time you cook dinner
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Speaker 1: in like your very first apartment. That's probably an absolute
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Speaker 1: fucking shitty, but you know there's going to be the
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Speaker 1: last time you cook dinner there and just how like
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Speaker 1: every little moment is like the first and last time
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Speaker 1: you get to do.
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Speaker 2: Something, and I just I'm going to start crying again.
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Speaker 1: But it was just the best movie and I want
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Speaker 1: everyone to go and watch it and everyone to cry and.
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Speaker 4: Make me feel better about I'm going to watch it
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Speaker 4: this weekend.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like you're scared.
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Speaker 1: Fair warning, don't watch it when you get it, you period.
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Speaker 1: All right, let's get into the episode is from me.
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Speaker 1: Don't make promises, I know, hattah.
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Speaker 2: We wanted to start it off by asking why do we.
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Speaker 4: Need to have taboo conversations in our twenties or any age.
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Speaker 3: I guess it's like what is a taboo? Right, Like,
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Speaker 3: the taboo is a subject or a topic or anything
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Speaker 3: of the sort that society is deemed like untouchable. You're
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Speaker 3: not supposed to bring it up. If you bring it up,
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Speaker 3: you're the problem. But think about that, like in the
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Speaker 3: context of okay, when a guy at a party makes
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Speaker 3: a fucked comment, the girl who often goes that's not on.
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Speaker 3: She's the taboo.
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Speaker 2: She's causing a druma or she is.
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Speaker 3: Creating a ssue because taboo creates discomfort, right, Because it's
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Speaker 3: like a sore spot. It's like a wound that society
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Speaker 3: refuses to pick at even though it's not healing. So
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Speaker 3: when we think about it like that, the reason we
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Speaker 3: should talk about taboos is because it's never the topic
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Speaker 3: that's the problem. It's the fact that we're saying in
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Speaker 3: a patriarchal society, men don't want us to talk about
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Speaker 3: that that doesn't suit the dominant narrative. So taboo subjects
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Speaker 3: are like pain during sex, or issues with consent, or
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Speaker 3: beauty standards or female friendship, and like is gossip bad?
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Speaker 3: Like see these are on the topics in the book
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Speaker 3: that I'm unpacking because I'm like, why are we so
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Speaker 3: uncomfortable touching this? If you touch it, it actually allows
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Speaker 3: it to heal, but until we deal with that, it's
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Speaker 3: going to be infected. It's like, very much my view
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Speaker 3: about it taboo, right.
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Speaker 4: I love that I think it gives it like such
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Speaker 4: a visual thing, makes it more of a tangible idea
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Speaker 4: and understanding why we do need to talk about it
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Speaker 4: because it seems like it would be just easier not to.
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Speaker 3: Of course, but it's festering.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it can.
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Speaker 1: Be quite intimidating and quite uncomfortable, and that is probably
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Speaker 1: a bit of the coping mechanism. I know, like there's
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Speaker 1: been situations where I've felt a certain way or maybe
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Speaker 1: I'm not like confident enough to voice it because I
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Speaker 1: think I get and a lot of people would probably
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Speaker 1: relate to this, But it's really nerve racking as well
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Speaker 1: to have the confidence to voice your taboo opinions or
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Speaker 1: to maybe like argue against something that you truly believe
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Speaker 1: in that maybe goes against your values. So what are
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Speaker 1: your tips on how you can have more taboo conversations
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Speaker 1: but increase your comfort and confidence level alongside them.
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Speaker 3: This is the thing I'm not going to say to someone. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: that next party where you're the plus one and don't
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Speaker 3: know a single person, I have a fucking massive go
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Speaker 3: at that guy, Like that's so awful.
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Speaker 2: But I'm kind of into that even go in and fuck.
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Speaker 3: Shit, if you're that girl who's like, I mean, the
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Speaker 3: girl that does that, I'm always like, go off, and
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Speaker 3: I'll usually go up to them and be like I'm
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Speaker 3: with you, or I'll try and say something in the moment.
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Speaker 3: But being the first person to call it out is
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Speaker 3: so hard because you are disrupting the status Cohen, and
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Speaker 3: again you are treated like the problem. I think the
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Speaker 3: thing is like, there's always a way to do things
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Speaker 3: where you don't have to put yourself in an unsafe situation.
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Speaker 3: It might not be that you address the situation directly
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Speaker 3: in the moment in front of a crowd or in
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Speaker 3: front of a huge group of people. You might talk
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Speaker 3: to the person lady, You might talk to the person
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Speaker 3: hosting the event about their comments. You might redirect if
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Speaker 3: you're feeling uncomfortable at like head on confrontation. But also
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Speaker 3: there's different ways to approach to boo conversations, which is, Oh,
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Speaker 3: I've always felt a bit weird about sex or the
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Speaker 3: concept of virginity or STIs or something. I'm going to
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Speaker 3: talk with my friends about an experience i had because
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Speaker 3: I think it's about cracking it open that first time.
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Speaker 3: There's always a way, whether it's your girlfriends. And I'm
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Speaker 3: so grateful that I don't know this, but like myself
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Speaker 3: in my experience, my friends and I talk about everything,
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Speaker 3: and I know a lot of women in friendship groups do,
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Speaker 3: but I still know my mom and like my grandma.
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Speaker 3: They wouldn't have friendship groups that talk about vibrators. They wouldn't, right,
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Speaker 3: And I think by opening it up and being offering
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Speaker 3: the conversation, yes, some people might want to be like,
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Speaker 3: that's my privacy, that's my boundary, absolutely, But I think
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Speaker 3: it's about making yourself available to people. Like a form
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Speaker 3: of cracking a taboo and dismantling shame is saying like,
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Speaker 3: oh I got this vibrat blah blah blah. If everyone's
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Speaker 3: off it, they don't want to talk about it, you're
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Speaker 3: not going to keep going and like pushing on them, right,
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Speaker 3: But I think you're kind of offering a new style
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Speaker 3: of friendship with a new layer and making that available
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Speaker 3: to people in a year, in three years. Like I
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Speaker 3: have a sister, my younger sisters, seven years younger than me.
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Speaker 3: She just turned nineteen yesterday, Happy birthday, Kate, and yeah
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Speaker 3: and shout out Kate. And she got her first vibrator
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Speaker 3: when she was sixteen. She ordered for herself and she
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Speaker 3: like loved that, held it up to the FaceTime and
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Speaker 3: she was like, listen to all the settings on FaceTime.
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Speaker 3: And yet I was twenty one, like, oh, should I
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Speaker 3: get one online? Like freaked out by the concept, Like
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Speaker 3: she was four years younger than me because We've had
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Speaker 3: so many conversations about this. By making it like you
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Speaker 3: can ring your sister and talk about this, it changed
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Speaker 3: her perspective. So that is why it's important and how
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Speaker 3: we can like do it without being confrontational and creating
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Speaker 3: conflict necessarily.
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Speaker 1: That's so true because I remember when we both worked
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Speaker 1: at our old job and I was working as a
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Speaker 1: shopping journalist and my editor got sent a sex toy
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Speaker 1: and I'd never tried a sex toy before, and I
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Speaker 1: think I was maybe about twenty one or twenty.
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Speaker 3: Two at this point.
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Speaker 1: Like people were like laughing and it was like oh
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Speaker 1: to hear, and I like was like secretly like wanting it, yeah,
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Speaker 1: but I wasn't like I couldn't go, yeah.
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Speaker 3: I'll take it and if at works, so you feel weird,
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Speaker 3: right right.
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Speaker 1: So I just was like to her, I was like yeah,
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Speaker 1: like oh, and I was so shy. And then there
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Speaker 1: was another thing and it was like, oh, yeah, write
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Speaker 1: this article about sex toys and I was like, oh,
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Speaker 1: I don't know.
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Speaker 3: I've never tried one.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Where it's like you fast forward to now I'm
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Speaker 1: like literally on air explaining the Suki Suki cltorals of
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Speaker 1: a womanizer and I'm like, it is when you kind
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Speaker 1: of crack it open, it will pull apart and open.
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Speaker 3: Art kind of like a flower. Yes, but what in.
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Speaker 1: That example, if you do introduce a taboo topic like
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Speaker 1: say you know, you do go and you're like, look,
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Speaker 1: I got this vibrator and you aren't met by like
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Speaker 1: openness from other people, it would be really hard to
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Speaker 1: not pull away from being open again. Like if you
13:28
Speaker 1: did go and try to open up a taboo conversation
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Speaker 1: and then you're met with like a wall, how do
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Speaker 1: you not take that as a I'm never going to
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Speaker 1: do that again.
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Speaker 3: I think it's hard because also often it's like, Okay,
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Speaker 3: it's not to say that you shouldn't be in those
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Speaker 3: friendships or anything, but sometimes it's that you need in
13:44
Speaker 3: your group. You need and not to eliminate one and
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Speaker 3: start another. You need to have different friendships different purposes.
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Speaker 3: Like some friendships are those coffee, let's talk about work.
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Speaker 3: Others are let's have a wine and I'm going to
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Speaker 3: talk about this guy I had sex with last week
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Speaker 3: and this specific smell or this specific texture or the
14:01
Speaker 3: specific strange thing that happened and get your advice on.
14:03
Speaker 3: And I mean that like different, I'm not going to
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Speaker 3: And I always think of it as like a personality pie,
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Speaker 3: Like when you're at work, what's your percentage? And like
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Speaker 3: what slice do you give different people in your life?
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Speaker 3: Like at work, are you seventy percent? Are you six percent?
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Speaker 3: What do you want from your workplace? And friendships? And
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Speaker 3: are you ever one hundred percent with anyone on just yourself?
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Speaker 1: Like I always the pie of your personality pie do
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Speaker 1: you give people?
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Speaker 3: And you don't need to give everyone one hundred percent, right,
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Speaker 3: and you don't need to give specific friendships one hundred percent,
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Speaker 3: But I think you need to have friendships where you're
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Speaker 3: edging that eighty to ninety percent range, where you're like,
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Speaker 3: I can go to you as a trusted person in
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Speaker 3: my life who isn't going to judge me, but it's
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Speaker 3: gonna have a frank conversation with me about something crazy,
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Speaker 3: something fun, something sexy. And so it's not about cracking
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Speaker 3: open everyone and going and being like look at this
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Speaker 3: literal vibrator, but about finding the right people and offering
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Speaker 3: to the closed off people that you're available when they're
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Speaker 3: ready to talk about it.
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Speaker 1: Like that's that's also a good thing to remind ourselves
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Speaker 1: to make sure that we're ensuring that the people that
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Speaker 1: are around us know that we're open to and like
15:03
Speaker 1: wear a safe space to have taboo conversations, that like,
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Speaker 1: your friends can come to you and have that conversation
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Speaker 1: with you if they need it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we wanted to ask you.
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Speaker 1: Obviously share a lot of taboo opinions in the book,
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Speaker 1: but do you have a favorite?
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Speaker 3: Okay, the one I know I'm going to cop so
15:20
Speaker 3: much heat for, But I don't mean this against people.
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Speaker 3: I just think it's like a broader concern I have
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Speaker 3: is in the book. There's one that I briefly mentioned,
15:27
Speaker 3: which is that I find it a bit odd when
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Speaker 3: women propose to their male partners. Oh so robots in
15:35
Speaker 3: the book, And the reason is I think it's very
15:36
Speaker 3: progressive and challenging gender norms. Completely agree, but I often
15:39
Speaker 3: worry because sometimes when we make progress in the feminist movement,
15:43
Speaker 3: often it's like women taking on more stuff. And when
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Speaker 3: it comes to women proposing to men, I'm like, have
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Speaker 3: have you challenged gender norms? Or is it also that
15:55
Speaker 3: you're taking something off a man's plate that he's expected
15:57
Speaker 3: to be vulnerable during to plan to get down on
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Speaker 3: one knee, like this entire context of like the and
16:03
Speaker 3: I don't want to uphold tradition, but I want to say, like,
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Speaker 3: is this just something else you're doing alongside planning the
16:09
Speaker 3: wedding and like executing, you know, booking everything, preparing the dress,
16:14
Speaker 3: preparing his outfit, planning your whole life and carrying that
16:17
Speaker 3: mental and emotional labor. Can we not expect that they
16:20
Speaker 3: do that? Are we just taking the one thing off
16:22
Speaker 3: their plate? And that's not to say that that's every couple.
16:24
Speaker 3: It's just like a broader thing where sometimes people say
16:27
Speaker 3: I'm having a marriage, but I'm doing differently, and it's
16:29
Speaker 3: like the difference is, you know, my mum and dad
16:31
Speaker 3: are walking me down the aisle. I'm like, that's not
16:33
Speaker 3: that different. That's and so I think with the I
16:36
Speaker 3: think I always just get a bit confused when I
16:37
Speaker 3: see a woman posing to a man because I'm like,
16:40
Speaker 3: but you just stopped him from being the one thing
16:41
Speaker 3: we expected of him. And that's my worry. That's always
16:44
Speaker 3: my worry a bit, and I think that's very controversial,
16:48
Speaker 3: but it's my big one.
16:49
Speaker 1: I think the worry that you're saying that was very valid.
16:52
Speaker 3: And some of my friends have been the ones to propose,
16:54
Speaker 3: and I think it's so beautiful. I also know the men,
16:57
Speaker 3: and I know that they are equally planning and doing
16:59
Speaker 3: all those I think for a lot of women, I'm
17:01
Speaker 3: just like, don't do that as like this most feminist thing.
17:05
Speaker 3: If he's not picking up the slack as well.
17:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true.
17:08
Speaker 4: We were having like a similar conversation this morning when
17:10
Speaker 4: we were talking.
17:11
Speaker 2: About people who choose to stay at home.
17:14
Speaker 1: We put up a story box on Instagram for people
17:16
Speaker 1: to send in their taboo opinions.
17:18
Speaker 2: But one of them was.
17:20
Speaker 1: Is it bad that I would love to stay at home,
17:23
Speaker 1: cook and clean and not work.
17:25
Speaker 3: Oh I can give my response to that.
17:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we were saying that, like, I feel like
17:30
Speaker 4: this is an example of that that being, you know,
17:33
Speaker 4: having the choice to pursue your career is an incredible
17:38
Speaker 4: leap for women when we look through history, and I'm
17:42
Speaker 4: so glad that we've all had that opportunity.
17:44
Speaker 2: But also we still have all of the.
17:47
Speaker 4: Emotional labor at home, unpaid labor at home in.
17:52
Speaker 2: A lot of instances.
17:53
Speaker 1: So it's like cool now with my double cooking and
17:55
Speaker 1: cleaning at home, yeah, and working.
17:58
Speaker 2: Now because it's not like one left. Yeah, you're just
18:01
Speaker 2: adding more.
18:02
Speaker 3: I basically write a whole chapter in my book about this,
18:04
Speaker 3: because when I was like eighteen or nineteen, I remember
18:06
Speaker 3: I left a small town. I'm from Orange and New
18:08
Speaker 3: South Wales and a lot of the girls in my
18:11
Speaker 3: year at school has had baby straight away, and I
18:13
Speaker 3: remember calling my mum from UNI and being like, what
18:15
Speaker 3: the fuck, Like we have this opportunity now to go
18:18
Speaker 3: traveling and study and like be educated and work, Like
18:21
Speaker 3: why would they do that? And my mom was like,
18:23
Speaker 3: you're undervaluing motherhood and I it really raddled me at
18:26
Speaker 3: the time when I was about nineteen, and now I
18:28
Speaker 3: look back on it, and I realized that it's not
18:29
Speaker 3: this feminist thing to be like I'm going to do everything.
18:32
Speaker 3: The failure of feminism has been getting women into the
18:35
Speaker 3: workforce but not getting men out of it. And so
18:38
Speaker 3: until we make parenting truly equal, what we're doing is
18:41
Speaker 3: saying to women who cook, clean and parent and take
18:44
Speaker 3: on caring responsibilities in the mental load, that's not worth money.
18:47
Speaker 3: But actually the problem is that we don't value that
18:49
Speaker 3: as work, and we only value corporate structures trades like
18:53
Speaker 3: actual formal employment as work. We don't value volunteering, we
18:55
Speaker 3: don't like caring roles. That's the issue. So no, that
18:58
Speaker 3: person that's not a top a pece, that's totally valid.
19:01
Speaker 1: But you know what I think is funny in a
19:03
Speaker 1: not funny way, is that that gets branded as like
19:06
Speaker 1: the woman who does it all, she's a mother, a CEO,
19:10
Speaker 1: and an entrepreneur.
19:12
Speaker 4: The girls she Yeah, okay, so we've covered I guess,
19:16
Speaker 4: how to bring up taboo or controversial conversations with people.
19:22
Speaker 4: But what do you do if you're in a relationship
19:25
Speaker 4: or a friendship, or you're speaking with someone that you
19:28
Speaker 4: know and they have a taboo opinion or controversial opinion
19:33
Speaker 4: that you don't align with?
19:36
Speaker 2: How do you confront that?
19:37
Speaker 4: And also can you separate a person from their controversial opinion?
19:43
Speaker 3: It's like the classic can you date some on the
19:44
Speaker 3: other side of politics? Question?
19:46
Speaker 1: Right?
19:46
Speaker 3: And it depends on what the opinion is. Of course,
19:48
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be like anyone who disagrees you're done.
19:51
Speaker 3: You just can't live like that, right, what KFC chips
19:57
Speaker 3: and macas chips, and like whether you would vote for
19:59
Speaker 3: Trump or not, Like there's a spectrum of opinions and
20:01
Speaker 3: like what's valid and what's not right and what's serious
20:03
Speaker 3: and what's not. I think when it comes to to
20:05
Speaker 3: boo opinions, that was a great example what we're just
20:07
Speaker 3: talking about about, like this willingness to be at home
20:10
Speaker 3: and not have to work, or like I can see
20:13
Speaker 3: that and disagree with that life plan and go. But
20:15
Speaker 3: I really understand why I was previously wrong. I understand
20:19
Speaker 3: why I judged you. I understand what was wrong with that.
20:21
Speaker 3: I understand that I fundamentally undervalued and didn't see you
20:24
Speaker 3: in that. Now, I think, depending on what the opinion
20:29
Speaker 3: is and what the taboo is, I'm not going to
20:31
Speaker 3: align with offense, with hatred, with bigotry. But when we're
20:35
Speaker 3: talking about opinions, I think, as a white woman with
20:38
Speaker 3: a lot of privilege, it is also my job that
20:40
Speaker 3: if my dad or my mom or my grandparents says
20:42
Speaker 3: a taboo opinion in inverted quotations, which is actually just
20:45
Speaker 3: a fucked opinion, that I have an opportunity to go.
20:48
Speaker 3: Why do you think that way? What led you to
20:50
Speaker 3: that belief? Why are you so tied to this like stereotyping,
20:55
Speaker 3: this stigma, this view that you have, and not that
20:58
Speaker 3: I'm going to convince them, but that I'm going to say, like, oh, well,
21:01
Speaker 3: my experience is this, and I'm happy to have this
21:04
Speaker 3: conversation with you seven times in the hopes that one
21:07
Speaker 3: day you won't project that onto someone else and that
21:10
Speaker 3: I can intervene here and offer an alternative because it's
21:14
Speaker 3: not that helpful. And I'm not saying people can't cut off,
21:16
Speaker 3: can't got no contact, or can't cut off relatives or
21:19
Speaker 3: someone with horrific opinions, but that I do see it
21:22
Speaker 3: as my work to want to spend the time because
21:25
Speaker 3: these are the conversations we have to make sure we
21:27
Speaker 3: all progress and we don't end up so divided that
21:29
Speaker 3: we turn around and go, I can't believe the world
21:31
Speaker 3: is sitting like this right now, and I've shut out
21:33
Speaker 3: anyone who thought a different way to me.
21:36
Speaker 1: I love that as well, and I feel like it
21:38
Speaker 1: relates to what you spoke about in back your first
21:41
Speaker 1: book as well, about how you approach disagreements, and it's
21:44
Speaker 1: more about asking questions to understand why they think that way,
21:47
Speaker 1: with not the goal to convince them to agree with you,
21:51
Speaker 1: but maybe to move even ten percent more towards a
21:55
Speaker 1: better understanding.
21:56
Speaker 3: That's the thing. The goal is to understand someone else
21:59
Speaker 3: and go, oh, they made me create think about and
22:00
Speaker 3: strengthen my point or change my point. Like you have
22:03
Speaker 3: to be open to changing your mind too, just like
22:05
Speaker 3: with the moment.
22:06
Speaker 1: Just being like them if you're like, no, I'm not
22:08
Speaker 1: listening to you, I'm not agreeing with anything you have
22:10
Speaker 1: to say. I'm right, you're wrong, You're exactly you're mirroring
22:14
Speaker 1: each other.
22:15
Speaker 3: But also emotionally, for me, when I listen to an
22:18
Speaker 3: opinion that's like that, I actually feel pity for the
22:21
Speaker 3: person that's holding the opinion, because I'm like, it is
22:23
Speaker 3: sad that you live in a world where the media
22:25
Speaker 3: and lots of politicians have convinced you to feel this
22:29
Speaker 3: scared of other ideas. And I am here. I don't
22:33
Speaker 3: want other people to have to do that work. What
22:34
Speaker 3: I am willing to sit here and go this is
22:37
Speaker 3: why that's not okay? Or tell me more so that
22:41
Speaker 3: we can find some common ground here, Like that's so important.
22:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've said that, and that's been a bit of
22:46
Speaker 1: a theme this year that people who have curiosity and
22:50
Speaker 1: the eagerness to understand are a lot more richer than
22:53
Speaker 1: people that believe they know everything.
22:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's.
22:57
Speaker 1: A lot scarier probably to be like, I am not
23:02
Speaker 1: one hundred percentual that I know this, but I'm like
23:05
Speaker 1: interested to understand more. But I do believe in certain
23:09
Speaker 1: values that I have. Rather than being like, no, I
23:11
Speaker 1: know this, you're wrong, I'm ready.
23:13
Speaker 3: Intelligence is knowing what you don't know, right.
23:16
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that it probably takes a
23:18
Speaker 1: little while to get to because at first I was
23:21
Speaker 1: so scared of like being wrong or not knowing. And
23:23
Speaker 1: that's why you don't have taboo conversations because you're like, fuck,
23:26
Speaker 1: am I gonna look stupid? Yeah?
23:27
Speaker 3: Or am I going to be embarrassed? Yeah?
23:29
Speaker 4: And in twenty twenty four, like we're all expected to
23:31
Speaker 4: have all of the information, and if you give any
23:34
Speaker 4: sort of opinion and you've missed one one.
23:37
Speaker 3: Statistic, one qualifier thing.
23:41
Speaker 4: You're like not like your argument is completely void? Now yeah, yeah,
23:45
Speaker 4: and I think people are scared of that. Yes.
23:47
Speaker 1: Well yeah, so speaking of by which was again gives
23:55
Speaker 1: you said by it back was more cheek, whereas taboo
23:59
Speaker 1: is more you yes, which I just think is so exciting. Yeah,
24:04
Speaker 1: buy back was incredible, and so is taboo. But I
24:07
Speaker 1: want to understand what that means.
24:10
Speaker 3: It made so much sense to me when I was
24:12
Speaker 3: writing them and promoting them, because people were asking what
24:14
Speaker 3: the difference was, and I was like, well, cheek media
24:17
Speaker 3: is like my company. It's really where I talk about,
24:19
Speaker 3: like the legal system, the political system, feminism, media, how
24:23
Speaker 3: to understand big concepts and talk about them right. But
24:27
Speaker 3: taboo is like coming to me personally and saying, like,
24:30
Speaker 3: what have been my experiences of pleasure, of painful sex,
24:34
Speaker 3: of dating, of female friendship, of being someone on social
24:38
Speaker 3: media in the public eye, but also of like my
24:41
Speaker 3: family and the childhood and the context has led me
24:44
Speaker 3: to have the views I have now and how that
24:47
Speaker 3: relates to like my experiences like health systems, of the
24:50
Speaker 3: ideas around like how my grandmother's introduced me to like
24:53
Speaker 3: feminism in different ways that I didn't understand until now.
24:56
Speaker 3: Like you know, these experiences of sex and relationships define
25:01
Speaker 3: how I approach my day to day, and I think,
25:03
Speaker 3: with bite back, actually proud of it what it taught people.
25:06
Speaker 3: But people seem to really want to know how I
25:08
Speaker 3: got here and what my personal experiences are. And this
25:11
Speaker 3: is really scary because it is like quite traumatizing stuff
25:14
Speaker 3: sometimes and it's to do with like body image and
25:16
Speaker 3: eating disorders and beauty and all these things, but it's
25:20
Speaker 3: really focusing on what does it mean to be a
25:22
Speaker 3: woman in twenty twenty four and how do we converse
25:25
Speaker 3: about that to make sure that it gets better.
25:27
Speaker 1: It's quite vulnerable, and leading back to what you said
25:30
Speaker 1: at the start, is talking about taboo conversations means being vulnerable,
25:34
Speaker 1: and it's essentially what you've done in this book.
25:37
Speaker 2: How did you get yourself there?
25:39
Speaker 1: Because that's really scary, Like even you know, we wrote
25:42
Speaker 1: a book and there were moments that.
25:43
Speaker 3: I was like, fuck, do I want to put this in?
25:44
Speaker 3: People not going to like me because I've said this?
25:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it can be really really hard to be vulnerable.
25:48
Speaker 1: So that how did you kind of help yourself and
25:52
Speaker 1: encourage yourself to be vulnerable in this book to help
25:55
Speaker 1: others be vulnerable.
25:57
Speaker 3: And have those taboo conversations as well? So hard because
26:01
Speaker 3: what it and I'm not sure if you had this experience.
26:02
Speaker 3: I'm sure you did where when you finish writing and
26:05
Speaker 3: editing you just kind of push it away. I can't,
26:10
Speaker 3: And I talk about this a lot, like the writing
26:13
Speaker 3: part and the editing part are fucking hard because you're
26:16
Speaker 3: having to. It's like for everyone listening, it's like a
26:18
Speaker 3: university assignment that just keeps coming back.
26:20
Speaker 2: And you're like, I thought it was done.
26:22
Speaker 3: I thought I could rush that to that one deadline.
26:24
Speaker 3: But then you realize, oh no, no, the deadline keeps moving,
26:27
Speaker 3: and even like when you finish it for the last time,
26:30
Speaker 3: you go back and open the document, you're like, fuck,
26:32
Speaker 3: Like now it's going out, and you almost push it
26:35
Speaker 3: away from yourself and dismiss its existence, because in the
26:37
Speaker 3: lead up between like finishing, editing, and going on shelves,
26:42
Speaker 3: you can't think too hard about the fact that strangers
26:45
Speaker 3: now have the capacity to access all these things about.
26:47
Speaker 2: You because you can't change it.
26:49
Speaker 3: You can't change it back. But then you also have
26:52
Speaker 3: to realize this is a moment in time, and actually,
26:55
Speaker 3: if this book was relevant I agreed with everything I
26:57
Speaker 3: said in five years, that would be a problem. I agree.
27:01
Speaker 3: I think about this lot because people go, oh, what's
27:02
Speaker 3: a you know you're committing to print. I'm like, but
27:05
Speaker 3: you can't think of it like I hope in twenty
27:08
Speaker 3: years I'll agree with myself. On page twenty eight, the
27:11
Speaker 3: point is that you can change your mind. You can
27:13
Speaker 3: be better you can evolve as a natural human being.
27:16
Speaker 3: So you have to look at yourself and I'm twenty
27:18
Speaker 3: six now I have to look at this with like,
27:20
Speaker 3: oh my god, she knew so little, but she tried
27:22
Speaker 3: so hard. You have to yourself like that, right, and
27:26
Speaker 3: you have to just be brave and be bold and
27:28
Speaker 3: go fuck it. I'm not sure how this is going
27:30
Speaker 3: to land, but I think that maybe a fifteen year
27:32
Speaker 3: old me, a twenty year old me would have really
27:34
Speaker 3: benefit from this and push out with the knowledge that
27:37
Speaker 3: you just want to reach one person, you know, like
27:40
Speaker 3: that's how you have to approach. Otherwise you'll actually have
27:43
Speaker 3: to crawl under a rock and hide, like truly.
27:46
Speaker 4: One of our favorite taboo topics that you covered in
27:49
Speaker 4: the book is that friendship is more powerful than romantic relationships.
27:55
Speaker 4: What's the biggest life lesson that you've gotten from female friendship?
27:59
Speaker 3: Thing about female friendship is that it has no expectations
28:03
Speaker 3: of sex or how you look or there's no There
28:07
Speaker 3: is a level of intimacy, but it is not based
28:10
Speaker 3: in your body or like what you can or can't
28:12
Speaker 3: perform or do for a partner in that capacity, so
28:15
Speaker 3: in that it sees you without as many and not
28:19
Speaker 3: to say that every relationship has to be innately sexual
28:22
Speaker 3: and all those things in partnership, in romance, but so
28:25
Speaker 3: often that is the case, and what we're built to
28:27
Speaker 3: believe we have to do, which was like with a frequency,
28:30
Speaker 3: how long it should last, how we should look during it.
28:32
Speaker 3: There's so many expectations. Friendship is a relationship and a
28:36
Speaker 3: love built purely on I see you, and I'm interested
28:39
Speaker 3: in your being and what you have to tell me.
28:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a choice.
28:42
Speaker 3: And you're saying like, I love your mind, and I
28:44
Speaker 3: love what you contribute to my life just by being
28:46
Speaker 3: present in it. And I think that romantic relationships have
28:49
Speaker 3: a lot to learn from that natural connection and want
28:52
Speaker 3: without physical expectations. Yeah, that is the biggest thing. But
28:56
Speaker 3: there's obviously so much more too.
28:58
Speaker 2: I sound so smart when I quote Plato, so.
29:03
Speaker 1: I'm there's actually a quote friend Plante, who was the
29:07
Speaker 1: first person to document platonic soulmates. We've created soulmates as
29:13
Speaker 1: a term to be a level of status, an achievement
29:17
Speaker 1: for romantic relationship, when really soulmates is a blanket term
29:20
Speaker 1: for all relationships that are intimate, because intimacy is not sexual. Yes,
29:27
Speaker 1: and I just love it, because I think you should
29:31
Speaker 1: have soulmates that are not your romantic partner, because there's
29:36
Speaker 1: no there's no blood relationship or marriage certificate that's forcing
29:40
Speaker 1: you to be together. Not that that should ever force
29:42
Speaker 1: anyone to be together anyway, but sometimes those relationships have
29:46
Speaker 1: like a.
29:47
Speaker 3: Fog of expectation.
29:48
Speaker 1: There's a bind that it's like, oh, well, I'm going
29:52
Speaker 1: to be here for you because you're my family or
29:54
Speaker 1: because you're my boyfriend or husband or whatever it is,
29:57
Speaker 1: which again I don't think we should have that expectation.
30:00
Speaker 1: People do, but yeah, we have to acknowledge that that's there.
30:03
Speaker 1: Whereas with friendships, it is just such a choice. And
30:07
Speaker 1: so when you do have those incredible friendships in your life,
30:10
Speaker 1: it is such an empowering sense of belonging because it's like, yeah,
30:14
Speaker 1: these people see you and your mind and they're like, yeah,
30:16
Speaker 1: I like you, Pokemon when you keep your up packet
30:20
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to let you go.
30:22
Speaker 4: And interesting thing that you mentioned in the book is,
30:25
Speaker 4: and I want you to elaborate on this is when
30:29
Speaker 4: people say that their partners are their best friends.
30:32
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what are your thoughts?
30:34
Speaker 3: I don't like it.
30:37
Speaker 2: I just love that that's it. That's their answer.
30:38
Speaker 3: I don't like it.
30:39
Speaker 2: I don't like it.
30:40
Speaker 3: I don't like it. The reason I don't like it
30:43
Speaker 3: is because I think it's that what I just describe,
30:45
Speaker 3: Because of course, your partner has a relationship with you
30:49
Speaker 3: that is is far closer like I hope. I hope.
30:53
Speaker 3: I hope that because of the sexual connection and the
30:56
Speaker 3: way they see and experience you in that different way
30:58
Speaker 3: is an elevation from a normal friendship. I hope. I
31:01
Speaker 3: do fear that in most romantic heterosexual relationships, their female
31:06
Speaker 3: friends know them better than their romantic partner. That's what
31:09
Speaker 3: I fear for women. I wish that men were more
31:12
Speaker 3: emotionally on the whole, more emotionally equal to women and
31:15
Speaker 3: the kind of friendship we experience. But I think that
31:17
Speaker 3: when you don't have that modeled in most male friendships,
31:19
Speaker 3: that's very hard to attain an acquire right. What I
31:23
Speaker 3: think by saying your partner's your best friend is that
31:26
Speaker 3: you're eliminating the role of the best friend and denoting
31:28
Speaker 3: it right, because a friendship is entirely different, and it's
31:33
Speaker 3: that platonic, that absence of sexualization that makes it so special,
31:38
Speaker 3: because there is no expectation, it has like less conditions.
31:41
Speaker 3: Almost to say your partners your best friend is to
31:44
Speaker 3: remove the role of other women in your life in
31:46
Speaker 3: a sense, and not to say that your best friend
31:48
Speaker 3: can't be male. But we know that female friendship is
31:51
Speaker 3: like the most powerful force in the world, and to
31:53
Speaker 3: say your partner is that it is kind of just
31:55
Speaker 3: to degrade that narrot it a little bit.
31:56
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I agree with you, but I think
32:02
Speaker 1: your partner should be your best friend, but you.
32:06
Speaker 3: Should also have other best friends.
32:07
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Like I do think of Rob
32:11
Speaker 1: as like a best friend in my life, but not
32:16
Speaker 1: the best friend, you know, because I've had relationships where
32:20
Speaker 1: they weren't, and that was because I think there's that
32:24
Speaker 1: there was an absence of me being able to be
32:26
Speaker 1: authentically myself.
32:27
Speaker 2: But I agree with you.
32:29
Speaker 1: But I also think you should look at a romantic
32:33
Speaker 1: partner and they should.
32:34
Speaker 3: Course.
32:34
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because I look at it in terms of
32:36
Speaker 1: how your female friendships the level that they are. They're
32:40
Speaker 1: a fucking slagh And if your partner is not being
32:44
Speaker 1: obsessed with you like your friends are, then I'm like
32:46
Speaker 1: bin yeane. So maybe that's why I think of it
32:49
Speaker 1: like that. But I agree that I don't think they
32:50
Speaker 1: should be your only friend.
32:52
Speaker 3: I don't think they should be your best friend with exclusion.
32:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like, regardless of what the relationship is,
33:00
Speaker 4: you should never have all of your eggs in one bust,
33:03
Speaker 4: and that no one person can fulfill you, whether that's
33:06
Speaker 4: romantically or friendship or family, and that you need to
33:09
Speaker 4: have multiple support systems in your life. And I think
33:13
Speaker 4: a lot of people in heterosexual relationships especially that, and
33:17
Speaker 4: I'm sure we've all seen this, that they get into
33:21
Speaker 4: a relationship, their partner becomes their best friend, and then
33:24
Speaker 4: they're completely isolated.
33:25
Speaker 2: From any other support system they have.
33:27
Speaker 4: And that's what is always like an alarm bell for
33:31
Speaker 4: me when I see somebody who has sort of let
33:33
Speaker 4: go of their friendships and hasn't maintained those in favor
33:37
Speaker 4: of their partner, and now their partner is their only
33:40
Speaker 4: source of support.
33:41
Speaker 3: Well, with a former partner of mine, like once he
33:43
Speaker 3: asked me, like six months into the relationship, like am
33:47
Speaker 3: I your best friend? And I said no, no, Like,
33:49
Speaker 3: I don't see it that way. I see it as
33:50
Speaker 3: like I have best friends and then I have a partner,
33:52
Speaker 3: and you are at the top, but you are not
33:55
Speaker 3: my favorite person number one necessarily because one you will
33:59
Speaker 3: be one day. But my best friends have been with
34:02
Speaker 3: me for ten years, so true, so it would be
34:05
Speaker 3: unfair to them to say you've jumped to number one
34:08
Speaker 3: after six months because we have sex. And I don't
34:11
Speaker 3: mean to discard that. I think he is incredibly important.
34:13
Speaker 3: I think that your partner should be one of the
34:15
Speaker 3: most important people in your life. But I think it's
34:18
Speaker 3: about saying, like, you also have to earn that because
34:21
Speaker 3: the girls have and the girls might will be at
34:23
Speaker 3: the wedding, but you might not be. I love it
34:26
Speaker 3: right that I saw that branch. I saw that on
34:29
Speaker 3: TikTok once, like this woman said like, well, I'm going
34:31
Speaker 3: to be a bridesbed, I'm at the wedding, bit is he?
34:34
Speaker 3: And I was like that changed everything for me. That's true.
34:38
Speaker 3: It is a different branch. It's just the partner and
34:40
Speaker 3: best friends. It in like different.
34:41
Speaker 2: Categories in my mind, a different basket.
34:42
Speaker 3: But they're at the same level. Yeah, yeah, it's just
34:44
Speaker 3: it's the label for me.
34:46
Speaker 1: Whenever I was dating people and I would like tell
34:49
Speaker 1: them about Zau as like kind of a way to
34:52
Speaker 1: introduce them to the fact that there's a higher ranking
34:56
Speaker 1: officer in the situation.
34:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've got a manager. Yeah, there's probation period.
35:03
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and that's the thing, and it's always
35:06
Speaker 1: a green flag when they respect that.
35:08
Speaker 3: Yep. Okay.
35:09
Speaker 1: And then before we wrap up, we would also love
35:13
Speaker 1: to ask you what's your biggest life lesson you learn
35:17
Speaker 1: while writing this book.
35:18
Speaker 3: I think that there is something more important than the
35:20
Speaker 3: fear you feel about putting something vulnerable out right, Like,
35:26
Speaker 3: of course you're going to feel the fear, but you
35:28
Speaker 3: can't allow that to not make you do something. You
35:31
Speaker 3: have to feel that fear and know that what you're
35:33
Speaker 3: producing and what you're saying is more important and has
35:37
Speaker 3: the potential to impact people in positive ways even though
35:40
Speaker 3: it presents like a risk to you. This has presented
35:42
Speaker 3: a risk to me because it's so vulnerable about like
35:44
Speaker 3: my family and my relationships. But ultimately, every time I
35:49
Speaker 3: was like I can do this, I'm not sure it's
35:51
Speaker 3: going to land. It's like I have to be willing
35:53
Speaker 3: to face criticism and backlash and all those fears, but
35:57
Speaker 3: I know that what I'm doing is the right choice
35:59
Speaker 3: and fair choice and representation, and I can just know that.
36:02
Speaker 3: Like I talk about dating, experiences that I'm really worried
36:05
Speaker 3: that people involved will see. But I'm also talking about them,
36:09
Speaker 3: not to dab people in or make people look bad,
36:11
Speaker 3: but to talk about the way I responded and what
36:13
Speaker 3: I wish I'd done differently in my earlier twenties. So
36:16
Speaker 3: I think it's about knowing that that reflection could help
36:20
Speaker 3: someone else, and that these are the things we need
36:22
Speaker 3: to crap and that shame I feel it's always going
36:23
Speaker 3: to live inside me, but what I'm doing is help
36:25
Speaker 3: dismantle that for others.
36:26
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming on as always, it
36:29
Speaker 4: was a pleasure and we're so proud of you.
36:31
Speaker 2: We've read the book. It was amazing.
36:33
Speaker 4: I've learned so much about you but also about myself,
36:37
Speaker 4: and I think so many people will feel the exact
36:39
Speaker 4: same way, so soak it in.
36:41
Speaker 2: You should be really proud. I'm going to stop talking because.
36:44
Speaker 3: Oh that's really nice.
36:45
Speaker 1: Thank you.
36:46
Speaker 3: I love you anyway. You're not big week.
36:50
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us in your ear heels JS.
36:52
Speaker 3: We love to be here. Thanks Sam, I made for well.
36:54
Speaker 3: Make your day's episode happens. Let's wrap it up, beautiful.
37:01
Speaker 3: The fact has a past