Latest / Generals of WWII: The Art of Command / General Zhukov: the greatest Soviet general (with Seth Hanson) | Ep 15

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General Zhukov: the greatest Soviet general (with Seth Hanson) | Ep 15 · Generals of WWII: The Art of Command

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Welcome to generals of World War 2, the art of Command.
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We are thrilled to have a brand new guest, a fellow historian,
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Seth Hanson. Seth and I have a big topic to
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discuss today. It's one of my most intriguing
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generals of World War Two. Who we talking about today,
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Seth? We're talking about Gorgie
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Zhukov, who is the most famous and probably the most successful
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Soviet commander of World War 2. Yeah, yeah, I've always wanted
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to do an episode on him, so I really appreciate Seth coming on
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the show. And yeah, we're going to dive
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into this Zukov fellow. He was born December 1, 1896,
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and pretty much poverty near Kaluga.
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I grew up in a peasant family and worked as a furrier's
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apprentice. What was his upbringing like?
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So he he was born in December 1896 and basically the family
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was pretty much poor the whole time.
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He his father was in that area. It's right around western
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Moscow. And the father pretty much had
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been banned from working in all the factories that are in that
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area. So the family was pretty poor
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because of this. And so Zhukov grew up in
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relatively poor and in some of the mythology that the Soviets
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would later do when Zhukov became famous is that he became
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a rag to riches person because of this.
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But to some extent the family was poor, but because they they
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were in the industrial part of the Russian Empire at the time,
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he wasn't as poor as maybe other parts of Russia would have been
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at that time. Yeah, and he was educated a
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little bit, right? Correct.
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He, his father and mother pushed him to go in school quite a bit.
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And so he got quite actually for Russian standards of the time, a
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lot of he got to read and actually became a lifelong
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reader thousands of books later in his personal library,
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according to Jeffrey Roberts book, he had something 20,000
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books. Could you hold that book up for
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us one more time, Seth? I just want everyone to see.
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It's called Stalin's Generals, A Life of Gorgie Zukov by Jeffrey
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Roberts. OK everyone check that out on
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Amazon. Looks like a great book.
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OK, so he's drafted into the Imperial Russian Army during
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World War One where he earns decorations for bravery.
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Where was he posted and how did he perform?
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So he basically he goes to Moscow in 19 O 8 to work with
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his mother's brother in in the fur business.
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And he initially when world 1 broke out in August 1914, he
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wanted to actually just join the Tsar's army.
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But his uncle's like, why are you crazy?
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Why would you want to do that? So he waits to get drafted.
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So he gets drafted around July August 1915 and he immediately
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gets sent into the Calvary division.
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And so he actually gets sent down to the southwestern front
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eventually, and that is around no August 1916.
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He gets sent down to the southwestern front, which is if
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you don't know your Wilder 1, the Russians in Wilder one had
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the northwestern front, which is basically from the Baltic to
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about the middle of Poland Eastern front, which is from
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basically that to right about modern day Hungary.
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And then the southwestern front from Hungary down into just
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bordering Romania. And he gets there right at the
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tail end of General Alesky Brussels offensive, which is the
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probably the most famous Russian offensive of world of one, which
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by the point Zhukov got to got there, he he's not the defensive
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is petering out. They're losing thousands of
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lives but he manages to get there and he leaves a couple
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charges. Obviously he gets shot and
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wounded but gets awarded for bravery.
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Out of this so some early indications that he was destined
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for leadership. He well before he gets sent down
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to the Southwestern Front, he actually got posted into the NCO
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school that the Russian army had partially just because of his
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early education. I mean, the most Russian
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peasants literally up until Soviet times, we're not educated
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at all. So he's above average just
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already. So they send them to the school.
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He had a harsh instructor from what Jeffrey Roberts tells us.
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But Zhukov and the rest of his fellow soldiers get rid of this
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bad officer and he gets good training there.
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And he later said that is probably some of the best,
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except for the bad instructor training he ever had.
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Yeah, and you know, if you're in any kind of command structure,
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even if it's an NCO, you have to be able to read and write.
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Yes, for sure. So yeah, he joins the Bolsheviks
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during the Russian Civil War after World War One, rising
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steadily through the Red Army ranks.
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Can you briefly take us through the civil war in Russia at the
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end of World War One? So Zhukov is an NCO in the
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Russian army when the February Revolution happens, which is the
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revolution that topples Zar Nicholas.
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He gets elected as the leader of his regiment because of his NCO
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status as well as because the Bolshevik and the Petrogat
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Soviets order number one, which is the famous order where the
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Russian army could elect its leaders.
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But that only lasted for about two months when his regiment
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decides that, oh, we're going to go home.
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So everyone goes home, including Zhukov.
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He wanted to join the Bolsheviks right away, or at least that's
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what he said he did in his memoirs.
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But there's some evidence, along with other future Bolshevik
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leaders, they did not want to join the losing side for fear of
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getting shots. So he probably waited at home
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for a little bit of time to see which side was going to win and
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the event. But he gets sick with typhus
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first. And then he joins the Bolsheviks
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because they put him in the Calvary because literally he's a
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perfect Calvary officer. But unlike he isn't very high in
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the Russian army at this time, right?
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So he doesn't have to. So there's no worries by the
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Bolsheviks that he's going to cause trouble.
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So they don't need to shoot him. So he can rise to the ranks
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pretty much. So he gets sent to fight Admiral
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Cold Chicks, which is the probably the biggest White
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Russian army force way out in Siberia.
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He does that for a couple years and then he fights around
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Zaristan, which is what would become Stalingrad.
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And so he fights under Stalin a little bit.
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But there's no evidence to state that he met Stalin at this time,
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probably because he's he's a minor officer at this time.
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So he fight, he gets a fight in those, mainly those two
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theaters. And basically the Russian Civil
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War is, is that the Whites are trying to overthrow the Reds and
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we established some kind of government.
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They say they want to bring the Czar, but Czar Nicholas gets
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shot in July 1918 with his family.
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Some peaks historians and other people would say that they were
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trying to make some kind of democracy.
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We don't really know what the Whites would have done because
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they didn't win. Main reason why they didn't win
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is because the Reds or the Bolsheviks controlled the
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industrial area of Russia at the time which is Moscow, St.
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Petrograd which will eventually become Leningrad and Stalingrad
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and a lot of the Ukraine areas. And the Russian Civil goes from
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1918 to 1921. Yeah, and Lennon and the
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communist win, but Lennon dies not long after, so Stalin takes
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over. Correct.
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And one of the biggest things he does is the military.
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He has a great purge, which eliminates many senior officers,
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an event that opened up opportunities for capable
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commanders like Zhukov. What were these purges about?
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Were they loyalty or something else?
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Well, it's not really to do with loyalty, it's to do something
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else. Because basically, if it was
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about loyalty, some of the military officers wouldn't have
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been killed because some of them were pretty loyal and had no
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reason to do anything. In Stalin, they were just shot.
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It was really to do with Stalin's paranoia.
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He, he believed that majority of the officers in the Red Army or
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Air Force or Navy, wherever they were, because they were all
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three were affected, was that he was afraid that they would might
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have been tainted by the Whites in the Russian Civil War.
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As well as the possibility that Nazi Germany, who is obviously
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rising at this time and Japan is rising at this time, that the
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fear was that they were going to use these generals that might
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have been corrupt. And so they need to get rid of.
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And so that's the main reason why Zhukov rises to the ranks at
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this stage, because by the start of the purges of 1937, he is
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been slowly moving through the ranks, the 20s and 30s, but he's
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not been, he's not Eisenhower or anyone else you might think in
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the West. He's just been meteorically
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rising. He's not doing that.
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Zhukov has been slowly going. In 37, when everyone starts to
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go in left and right to the gulag or get shot, Zhukov rises
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to the ranks quite rapidly. And this Jeffrey Roberts gives
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the story of how Zhukov literally was so fearful that he
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had a suitcase full of clothes underneath his bed and a gun by
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his side just in case he needed to shoot the NTVB.
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Cunning. Obviously he probably would have
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been shot and killed if they did come for him, but.
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But he had a go bag ready and packed.
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Yes, yes he did. In which there's other stories
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of other general Soviet generals that did this.
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And I mean, even some of his colleagues were not shot, but
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they would be sent to the gulag, like Constantine Rakasaki, who
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is a Polish Soviet officer at the time.
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He will get sent to the gulag and literally lose his teeth and
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will bare the scars of this the rest of his life in a reminder
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of what Stalin did to him. Yeah, it's interesting.
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Right now, Zhukov isn't well known, but he gains his first
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major recognition defeating Japanese forces at the Battle of
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Kalkin Ghoul, showcasing his master of combined arms warfare.
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Why did he succeed here? Well, it's partially because of
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his Calvary training, because basically he well, this, so
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Jeffrey Roberts as well as there's another book by Stuart D
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Goldman called No Manhan 1939. It's about this.
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And basically Stalin gets called to Moscow in May 1939 and says
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there's a battle going on Coke and golf.
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You need to go supervise or at least check to see what's going
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on. So that's what Zhukov initially
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goes to do there just to see why.
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Why is the fighting taking place?
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Why is the so it's not doing as well as they should be doing, at
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least in terms of the general staff.
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And what can he do to fix that, right?
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So he goes there and he basically figures out that
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because of the purges, there's a lot of officers that are not
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qualified to be in positions, and this will affect the Soviets
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through the first couple years of the war.
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A great point to bring up with these purges, a lot of people
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who are not qualified to be generals were elevated probably
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faster than they should have been.
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Yes, there there's a lot of that, you know, in 4142, mainly
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41, there is a lot of movement of moving people out where they
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shouldn't have been and putting them in where they are better
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qualified or getting shot if they failed and either way.
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But Zhukov goes there and figures out one the Japanese
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that did this attack in early May.
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And so he gets there about June 5th and he realizes that there's
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not good command. And so basically he he sends
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back a telegram to Moscow and says they need to do a whole
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reorganizing and it'd probably be better if I lead.
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And so he gets the command of what's at the time, the 57th
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accord. And so then he actually leads
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the defense in the second Japanese attack, which happens
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in the first few days of July. He barely actually contain that
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attack. I mean the Japanese technically
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was literally that close to waiting and then just failed at
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it because of tactics and mainly because Soviet armor.
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And then he has a somewhat of right after this late mid to
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late July, he actually technically is a very like a
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Major General in the Soviet army.
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And there's this Marshall of the Soviet Union that's technically
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is superior to him. And Zhukov is preparing for this
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massive offense that will encircle the Japanese army at
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Gokungal. And the Marshall is like, this
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is not the right plan, blah, blah, blah.
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And Zhukov goes and ask the General staff in Moscow who's in
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charge, and they say you're in charge.
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And so they create in July the 1st Army Group, which is
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Zhukov's totally in charge, no interfenders except for Moscow.
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No one else can tell him what to do.
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He launches this major attack on August 20th, 1939, which by
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September 1st, the Japanese third Division, and there's
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another division that gets encircled and absolutely
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destroyed. There's only a couple, 100
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people survive. At a time when the Japanese
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weren't losing like they were an unstoppable.
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Force, yes, I mean Japan literally had conquered a lot of
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lot of what China they occupied the rest of the war.
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I mean the Japanese hadn't really suffered a defeat at all
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until literally the Soviets did this.
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And this is part of the reason why the Japanese don't go to war
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with the Soviets later on and attacked us at the United States
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and the British and the Dutch. And so Zukakov gets this major
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defeat, inflicts this major defeat on Japan.
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But as most people would know, on August 23rd, 1939, the Nazi
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Soviet non aggression pact gets signed in Moscow.
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So it's a double blow for Japan militarily.
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They lost against the Soviets, but they also we're deeply
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shocked that they're supposed ally Germany has now signed a
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non aggression pact with with the Soviets, who are supposed to
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be the bitter enemy of both. Right.
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So that's part of the reason why Stalin didn't per SE no one on
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his 20th. He was going to get a non
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aggression pact with Hitler, but he it was already in the works
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by this point. So that's why he was allowed
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allowed Zukov to launch this major offensive and win this
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great victory. OK, well he must have done
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something right because he gets appointed Chief of the General
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Staff in 1941, just before Operation Barbarossa, where Nazi
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Germany attacks the Soviet Union.
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Why were Russian armies performing so poorly against
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Hitler's onslaught at the beginning?
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Well, so First off, the why was he appointed the general, the
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chief of staff? Because he doesn't do anything
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with the Winter War. If most people would know the
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winter war happens between November and March 19391940, the
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Soviets should have easily beat and Concord Finland.
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That does not happen they they suffer huge losses.
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Well Zhukov doesn't get any tarnish from this because he's
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still out in the Far East until May 1940.
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So then Zhukov gets a couple of commands before the chief of
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Staff, which mainly is actually the most probably the most
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prestigious besides the chief of the General Staff, which is the
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Kiev special military District which is incorporates most of
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Ukraine and he gets to take part in occupying best Arabia and N
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Bukovina. Thalin decides he wants
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aggressive general as his chief of staff.
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The problem is, and I haven't mentioned this yet, but
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basically Zhukov is a great tactician as Gokungal as well as
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future battles will show, he's terrible at staff work.
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Literally other throughout his command rise to command other.
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His superiors will say he's great field tactician, terrible
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at staff work. He could not be worse.
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And well, chief of the general staff is a lot of paperwork and
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a lot of staff work. He's not qualified for this, but
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Stalin belief leaves that he needs an aggressive person in
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there, so he puts him in there. And so Zhukov really doesn't
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have a lot of time to reorganize the Red Army or do anything like
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that because literally he gets command of it in January, but he
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actually doesn't get it in effect until like February 1st,
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1941. And so he has what that for five
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months in command before this Germans debate.
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And so he doesn't really get to do a whole lot.
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But the main reason why I read the Red armies suffer defeats is
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companies should two things. It's one their commanders aren't
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really that good like we just talked about, a lot of people
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are not in should not be where they are.
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The second reason why is because the Soviets are actually off put
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by the German attack. As most people know there's
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three army groups, German army groups that are attacking
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towards Leningrad, Moscow and the the steps of Ukraine and
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eventually Stalingrad in the next year.
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Well the Soviets truly believe the Germans main offensive will
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come South of the perpart marshes, which is there's a big
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marsh land in modern day Belarus, in upper Ukraine and
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throughout history no one really goes into that area when to
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fight offensives. So you either go north or South
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of it. Well, the Soviets thought the
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Germans would go South and so they mass maturing their armies,
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but tank force everything to stop the Germans there.
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Well, the Germans decide to go north because they want to take
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Leningrad and Moscow. That's their main objective
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initially at least. So in the north, the Germans
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pretty much can get to Leningrad within about 30 or 35 days.
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They're they're too already Leningrad.
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They're well on their way to Moscow by this time.
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But in the South, the Germans actually, I mean they're
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advancing, but it's a hard fought battle.
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The swords are actually fighting up a pretty good fight for the
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most part of this time until the Germans decide to turn South in
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middle of August in circle Kiev. Zhukov doesn't have anything to
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do with this because basically within a month Stalin realizes
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Zhukov isn't the best at coordinating all these armies,
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at least in terms of the chief of General Staff.
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He gets placed in the Stafka, which is the supreme command of
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the so the Soviet armies and him and a couple other people will
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be put in the staff cup and he'll man that being that the
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rest of the war. But chief of the general Staff,
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he he gets removed, not because Stalin just just trust him or
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thinks that he's doing a terrible job, maybe a little
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bit, but he really gets command of the reserve front, which is
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basically the Stalin's, the Soviets idea of placed armies
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there to rebuild and organized to launch offensives.
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And so that's where he gets placed.
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And so he doesn't get blamed for the the Soviet initial defeats
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or for the key disaster that will unfold in August.
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Well, yeah, and you kind of have your prize racehorse stuck in
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the barn, your best tactician doing staff work.
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It makes sense to move him out of that role.
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Yep, he does play a crucial role in organizing the defense of
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Moscow, helping halt the German advance in the winter of 1941.
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How was his relationship with Stalin?
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So he actually didn't meet Stalin until June 1940 for the
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first time. And Stalin loved basically loved
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him from the very first time he ever met him because he because
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of his aggression. Stalin loved aggression.
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And so he liked that about Zhukov.
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And so that's part of the reason why like he gets placed on the
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Chief of General Staff, right, gets command of the reserve
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front and then three things in 41 that he's.
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Most famous for he first he launches an attack around some
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Slimensk, which is obviously in Belarus, right?
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And the Soviets launched a major attack.
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They don't push the Germans out of there, but they they stop
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them at least. So stop them.
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He does a great job in stopping at least the German advance on
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Moscow in August, September 1941.
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Then Stalin says you're going to go to Leningrad, you're going to
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go save the city of Bolshevik founding, right?
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That's what Leningrad is to the comms.
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So he goes there and he does play a pivotal role in stopping
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the German attack on Leningrad because he places the the armies
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in the right spots and puts the right defenses up.
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But you could make the argument because Hitler had already
20:54
decided that we're just going to bombard it until it surrenders.
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Zukov didn't really per SE do anything.
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But hey, if propaganda why is the Zukov did it right then he
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gets called to say Moscow because after he even the
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600,000 Soviet soldiers that surrender to the Germans there.
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Now it's the race to Moscow. And so throughout the fall, the
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Soviets, if you Roberts talks about this, as well as David M
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Lance, who is an excellent author on Eastern front,
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basically talks about the Soviets start pulling troops
21:34
from Siberia, mainly because Japan isn't going to attack the
21:38
Soviets. That was the biggest fear the
21:40
Soviets had. Japan's going to go attack
21:42
America. They get they had a bunch of
21:44
spies, famously Ricard Sergei, who's in Tokyo is doing telling
21:49
the Soviets all this. So Stalin start sending men
21:52
over. Zhukov meanwhile, basically he
21:57
puts up a tenacious fight to the Germans to Moscow, but he never
22:01
has enough men to really truly stop the Germans before Moscow
22:05
until December 5th, 1941, when he's able to launch the Siberian
22:11
divisions because the Germans are so overstretched because of
22:15
the winter, because of advancing this far.
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I mean, General von Paulus, who will become famous commander of
22:22
the Six Army, did a war plan before the Germans ever attacked
22:26
the the Germans could never have met me in Moscow according to
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Paulus. So they were, I mean they were
22:32
close. They get the the story always
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goes, the Germans could see the, the Chrome of the Kremlin in
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which they were that close, but they were just so tired from all
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the events and taking all the prisoners and all the fighting.
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The Soviets were able to counter attack and at least save Moscow.
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The initial plan from December through the rest of the winter,
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early spring of 42, is the Soviets thought now that the
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Germs are stopped, we're going to push them all way back to the
23:00
border. Yeah, that's a little over
23:02
extreme that the Soviets are not capable, that the Red Army
23:06
needed to be retrained to be reorganized and to learn how to
23:10
fight. They they were starting to get
23:12
this by late 41, but they weren't ready.
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And so they say Moscow, but they they're not capable of pushing
23:18
the Germs back. And so it creates a bunch of
23:20
pockets that'll become important later on.
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Yeah, he's minimally involved in the great stopping at
23:27
Stalingrad, where, you know, they basically grab victory from
23:31
the jaws of defeat and and beat the Germans there.
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But he's more involved than Operation Mars, isn't he?
23:37
Yes, that is correct. So I'm not going to get into
23:40
really talking about the Battle of Stalingrad, but basically the
23:43
the six Army advances gets takes 90% of the Stalingrad and the
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the Soviets in September 1942, Zhukov, Valesky, Stalin and a
23:55
couple other of the stuff got meat.
23:57
And basically Stalin asked them how are we going to win in
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Stalingrad? And Zhukov and others say, well,
24:03
we can encircle the 6th Army in Stalin.
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So Zhukov does help set up that, but he doesn't have the critical
24:13
role as Soviet historical to the states.
24:17
And that's just because meanwhile, throughout the whole
24:19
time of the Germans going to Stalingrad and going to the
24:22
Caucasus to get the oil, there's what's called the Reserve
24:25
salient, which is right near Moscow.
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The Soviets, specifically Zukov, are paranoid that the Germans
24:32
are going to launch an attack from here to take Moscow because
24:35
it could, in theory, the Germans could do this.
24:39
The Soviet soldiers would later say they called it the meat
24:42
grinder because they would just launch offensive after offensive
24:46
after offensive trying to breakthrough what it was the the
24:49
German 9th Army around Reserve never ever worked during the
24:53
summer. So the Soviets stop.
24:55
They stopped in early October. Meanwhile they they start
24:59
prepping up for what will become Operation Uranus that will
25:02
encircle the 6th Army and Stalagam.
25:05
Well, Zhukov and stuff come up with the plan of Operation Mars
25:09
which is to eliminate the reserve saline.
25:13
Zhukov helps coordinate both their David and Lance and his
25:17
trilogy on Stalingrad as well as his book on Operation Mars
25:22
points out Zhukov is flying constantly down to Stalingrad up
25:25
to the reserve salient. He's coordinating both, but he
25:29
leaves the Stalingrad area around early November, like
25:33
November 5th ish. Somewhere right in there he goes
25:36
up and on November 25th. So it was supposed to start days
25:40
before Operation Uranus, but because of the weather and
25:45
because of other issues, the sods have to push it back until
25:48
after Operation Uranus starts and is successful.
25:51
And so Operation Mars is the idea to get rid of the rise of
25:54
saline. Like I said for an entire month,
25:58
the Soviet launch attack after attack again with four armies in
26:03
the Kuhngrad and Western fronts, and they lose thousands of men,
26:10
but they do not breakthrough at all.
26:12
The the 9th, the Germans not know that the operation of Mars
26:16
is coming, but by the time Mars is launched, Stalingrad is
26:21
already in trouble. And even though the Germans do
26:24
try to help save the 6th Army in Stalingrad, the Germans also can
26:28
move men up to help stop the. So it's doing the rise of Salia.
26:32
And so basically it becomes a kind of a pointless attack.
26:35
But Zhukov is so determined to take it that he just keeps
26:38
launching attack after attack. And it actually turns out to be
26:41
pointless because in the early January the Germans withdraw
26:46
from the salient because they realized they've lost so many
26:49
men and they can't hold on to it even more either.
26:52
And so it was pointless for all these attacks for throughout
26:55
most of the post war era after Zukat died and everything, they
26:59
whitewashed that from Soviet history.
27:01
They talk about his his involvement in Stalingrad,
27:04
nothing about Operation Marks. Yeah, it's interesting.
27:07
He gets promoted to Marshall around this time, correct?
27:10
Correct, he gets promoted and Marshall on in January 1943.
27:18
OK, he helps play and execute the big victory at the Battle of
27:22
Kursk, solidifying Soviet offensive momentum.
27:26
And I want to ask you how he got along with other generals.
27:28
There's a great quote from General Rokosovsky that I want
27:31
to call to attention. Real quick quote.
27:34
Has a strong will, decisive and firm.
27:37
Often demonstrates initiative and skillfully applies it.
27:41
Discipline. Demanding and persistent in his
27:43
demands. A somewhat ungracious and not
27:47
sufficiently sympathetic person. Rather stubborn.
27:50
Painfully proud in professional terms.
27:53
Well trained. Broadly experienced as a
27:56
military leader. Absolutely cannot be used in
27:59
staff or teaching jobs because he constitutionally hates them.
28:03
End Quote. Yes, I mean the other other
28:08
superiors, but he and he could not handle staff jobs.
28:13
But his relations with other commanders are mixed.
28:18
It depends on and that we can. We'll talk about this in a
28:22
little bit about his post war, but certain generals actually
28:28
worked well with him. Stalin kind of playing them off
28:31
each other, right? It's almost like a competition
28:33
with the Chukov and and Zukov and.
28:35
Yes, that's a part of it, right? Because one, Stalin definitely
28:39
plays them each other off. And that is prominent in the
28:42
Berlin offensive, right? Ivan Kovanoff, who's a fellow
28:46
Marshall by that point in 45, Stalin says whoever gets first
28:50
can take Berlin, even though Zhukov has literally his front,
28:54
literally has Berlin right in front of it.
28:56
There's no way Kovanov could have taken it anyways.
28:58
But that's beside the point. Stalin plays a mafia at each
29:01
other. And that's part of why some
29:03
generals did not like how Zhukov was very brash and very hard to
29:08
get along with, because Zhukov believed that everyone was
29:11
supposed to perform at a high excellence and not always did
29:14
they do that right. It's human nature.
29:16
Not everyone's going to perform at a perfect way every time, but
29:19
that's what Dukhoff demanded, pretty much.
29:21
And some people got along with that well.
29:25
Others, not so much. Mostly fellow Marshalls didn't
29:29
really get along with him too well.
29:31
And the part of the problem was too is that by this point in
29:35
January 1943, as well as throughout the rest of the war,
29:39
he's kind of, I like to call him a mixture of both Eisenhower and
29:44
Patton in the Soviet version, because he's Eisner in the sense
29:49
that he, with him being deputy supreme commander and Marshall,
29:53
he has literally the most power besides Stalin.
29:56
And he coordinates multiple fronts.
29:59
And he can tell what front to do what in any and, and you'll see
30:03
that and throughout most of the operations throughout the rest
30:05
of the war. And that rubs people the wrong
30:08
way in some cases, some ways treats them good.
30:11
But but he also can command a front, right?
30:15
And that's where the patent part of him comes out, or at least I
30:17
like to say, because he will command a front and usually does
30:20
quite well as he will do in later parts going to Berlin and
30:23
such, because he knows how to do tacticianly.
30:26
He's really great staff work, not so much other.
30:29
He had other people do that. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about
30:32
his personal life. Was he married or did he have
30:34
any children? So he had an illegitimate child
30:40
in the Russian Civil War around 1920.
30:43
He marries his first wife in 1920 as well, and he'll stay
30:48
with her throughout majority of his life.
30:51
Actually, he'll divorce his first wife well after the war
30:56
and then he'll he'll get married a second time and you'll have a
30:59
total of four daughters between the illegitimate and the two
31:03
wives. The two daughters that are from
31:05
the first marriage. The one specifically in his
31:09
memoirs as well as in her own writing will say Zhukov was a
31:14
great family man. Not so much during the war,
31:17
right? He's too busy in the war to see
31:19
anyone, but because of he's a great family man is basically
31:24
what the daughter says. But there is some evidence that
31:28
he not only had the illegitimate daughter before he got married
31:33
the first time, there is some evidence that he kept a personal
31:36
secretary in the war and had relations with this other woman.
31:41
At least that's what the driver will, his driver throughout the
31:45
war will say. But he denied it in his memoir.
31:48
So who really knows? But he's definitely on family
31:51
man throughout the whole time and he cares about his wives but
31:55
he also is busy, especially this time and during his life.
31:59
Sure, sure. Yeah, He leads Soviet forces in
32:03
the final push toward Berlin, culminating in V9 May 1945.
32:09
Why was Zukov chosen to personally accept the German
32:13
surrender? Well, it's a combination of he's
32:17
deputy supreme Commander, so he's literally the most powerful
32:21
military as well as technically person in the Soviet Union
32:23
besides Stalin. And Stalin wasn't going to go to
32:27
Berlin at all, at least not yet. I mean, Stalin will in July
32:30
1945, but he's not going to accept the surrender.
32:34
And two, even at this point the solely people think Zhukov is
32:38
almost perfect, right? Greatest man, except Stalin,
32:42
because you can't, you can't go higher than Stalin.
32:45
And so that's the main reason why he gets accepts the
32:49
surrender of German forces on May 9th, 1945.
32:53
Because of that reason and because he conquered Berlin,
32:56
he's the head, he commands the first Ukrainian front and he
33:01
drives it from right before our Warsaw and takes Berlin.
33:07
And so because of all these reasons, that's the main reason
33:10
why. And so because of this, probably
33:15
the highlight of his entire life would be the June 1945 victory
33:20
parade in Moscow, because he literally got to ride a White
33:25
Horse down Red Square in front of Stalin and everybody.
33:30
And I mean, this is high praise because Stalin is supposed to be
33:33
the big guy, right? And he gets to ride the White
33:36
Horse. You'd think Stalin would have
33:38
done this, but maybe Stalin didn't want to.
33:41
Who knows? But he gives Zhukov dishonor,
33:43
and Zhukov actually gets to stand by Stalin in the Lenin
33:48
Mausoleum and actually gave the keynote speech of the whole day.
33:52
Not Stalin, it was Zukov. That's how I Zukov was at this
33:55
time. Yeah, I just, I was shocked that
33:58
Stalin would share the limelight with anyone.
34:00
But you're right, in May 1945 Berlin was a war zone, so I'm
34:04
sure Stalin didn't want to go there.
34:05
Yeah, Yep. Well, after the war, Zukov kind
34:09
of falls out of favor politically and was reassigned a
34:11
less prominent roles, reflecting the volatile nature of Soviet
34:14
power politics. What were his later years like?
34:19
OK, so like I said, June 1945 was the highlight, right?
34:23
And so he does get command of Soviet occupied forces of
34:28
Germany because you you remember Germany's divided into 4.
34:32
After the war, Zhukov gets command briefly of these forces
34:36
and then he gets recalled to Moscow again in early 1946.
34:41
Zukov thought he was going to get more praise or get chief of
34:44
the General Staff again. But Stalin, in his paranoid
34:47
belief, believes that Zukov is getting too powerful.
34:50
Maybe he even has plans to take over power, right?
34:53
Who knows, right? At least that's Stalin's mind.
34:55
You don't really know what he's thinking.
34:56
So first he gets denounced and almost kicked out of the party
35:00
within two years and gets sent first to the Odessa military
35:04
District, which is backwater in terms of Soviet military
35:07
districts, mainly because of the fact that he's gotten too high
35:11
in the horror sees the official line is that he's claiming too
35:15
much credit for his big the victory over Germany, which is
35:18
rightly or wrong ring. He does have some credit, but
35:21
they're blame him for that as well as and it'll come out more
35:25
in 48. They they blame him for taking
35:28
too much stuff from Germany. Now you got to remember it.
35:32
It doesn't matter if it's you're a Marshall or if you're a
35:35
regular soldier in the Red Army. You took stuff from Germany.
35:40
Germany destroyed the Soviet Union.
35:43
I mean, the Soviet Union in, in the European parties absolutely
35:46
destroyed. Thousands of people are killed
35:48
from the partisans and and the Holocaust and everything, right.
35:52
So the soldiers punished Jeremy by taking anything that that
35:55
isn't bolted down. They take everything.
35:57
Well, Zuka is no different than this.
35:59
He takes a bunch of stuff and he tries to claim that some of his
36:03
gifted, some of it was bought, but it doesn't really work.
36:06
It doesn't fly for Stalin so he gets demoted.
36:08
But what's interesting is that a fellow Marshall dies in 1949 and
36:13
actually he gets to go to the funeral and actually is
36:16
mentioned in Pravda again. So he starts to kind of get
36:20
himself and actually joins the back into the not the party, but
36:25
he's actually re elected to the Supreme Soviet in 1950.
36:29
And then he gets into the central Committee which is a
36:32
even a step higher in the Soviet political government scheme.
36:37
But even this is before Stalin's death.
36:39
So even though Stalin decided to knock him down, he is starting
36:42
to rise up. Well Stalin dies March 5th,
36:46
1953. Kirstov, Molotov and Gordy
36:49
Malenkoff all decide that they're going to rule the
36:52
Soviet. But they have one major problem,
36:55
and that's literary of Beria, who is the head of the Cape of
36:58
what will become the KGB at the time it's and KVD, and they need
37:02
to get rid of them because they're so afraid that, as
37:05
Stalin jokingly told FDR at Yalta, he's our Himmler.
37:09
That's literally what Stalin called him.
37:12
Well, everyone was afraid of the guy because he's the head of
37:14
basically the KGB. Yes, he he's a terrible guy.
37:17
I mean, they're terrible stories about him.
37:19
Anyways, they need to get rid of him.
37:21
So mainly Khrushchev calls in Zhukov and says, will you help
37:25
me do this? And Zhukov is like, yes, I will
37:29
help you do this. And so basically, if anyone's
37:31
ever seen the movie Death of Stalin.
37:34
There's that great scene where Jason Isaacs throws off his tape
37:37
and he has like 800 medals and it's just great.
37:41
It's like, I mean, it's funny. Yeah, that.
37:44
But maybe that speaks to his ego at the time.
37:46
Like look at me it. That would have been Zukov's ego
37:49
though, and some of that is actually true what Zukov
37:52
probably would have done in that situation.
37:55
I mean, it's exaggerated, but you know, so like in the movie,
37:59
you know, there's the, the Mellenkopf pushes the button and
38:02
Zhukov comes riding in with fellow soldiers and actually
38:05
arrests Barry. They they take him out.
38:08
They actually do a trial. They do a do a show trial.
38:10
But Barry is so bad, they don't even have to fake anything to
38:15
have him executed. That's how bad Barry is.
38:18
So then Khrushchev keeps him around.
38:20
He actually commands in September 1954 the first ever
38:25
Soviet nuclear test where they they detonate the nuclear weapon
38:30
and then they send soldiers and see what would happen if they
38:32
could fight in the battlefield, which is terrible to those
38:35
soldiers, but that's what Zhukov commanded.
38:38
And then in early 55, he gets appointed minister of defense,
38:43
so the highest rank you can get to the Red Army.
38:46
And he he attends the Geneva summit in July 1955 where he
38:52
meets Eisenhower because he met Eisner in occupied Germany right
38:57
after the war. So this is the second time ever
38:59
meeting Eisenhower. And the story goes is that he
39:02
tells Eisenhower that we should be friends both the United
39:06
States and Soviet Union. And Eisner's like, well, the
39:09
Soviets are doing terrible things in Europe, but he's like,
39:11
that doesn't matter. We should still be friends.
39:13
And that doesn't, it doesn't really work with Eisenhower, but
39:15
they try to re can end of some kind of friendship.
39:18
I read something and I don't know where I read it.
39:21
Eisenhower learned that he was he was into fishing and I guess
39:24
he sounded like a a box of fishing lures.
39:26
And Zhukov love them so much because I guess Soviet fishing
39:31
lures are so poorly made that he he thought it was like a really
39:35
touching gift and he used them for the rest of his life.
39:37
Yes I've heard I've read the same stories and Zhukov is not
39:41
only interested in fishing he he does from his youth he always
39:45
loved to go hunting too. So he is an outdoorsman similar
39:48
to what Eisenhower would be. So basically Zukov will keep in
39:53
the Ministry of Defense through 1957, Khrushchev will use Zigov
39:58
and one more time on his side to get rid of Mellenkopf and
40:01
Molotov when they attempt a coup as it's called.
40:05
But it's not really a coup, they just try to use the political
40:09
system how this USSR works to get rid of Khrushchev.
40:12
Khrushchev actually out maneuvers them mainly because of
40:14
Zugoff help. But then Zhukov gets told he's
40:18
getting removed with managed to defense because Khrushchev
40:20
decides that Zhukov is too powerful, he's going to take
40:23
over, right? Same fears as what Stalin does.
40:25
And so he he gets himself removed.
40:28
And actually he gets promised after he gets removed by
40:31
Kristoff that I'll find some position in the army.
40:34
But that's not what happens. He actually gets removed from
40:36
the Army in early 1958. Yeah, he he dies of a stroke in
40:42
1974. And I wanted to talk to you
40:45
about his legacy. I mean, I've seen some stories
40:47
where he's the greatest Russian general of all time.
40:50
You know, obviously there's a bunch like super off during the
40:53
Napoleonic era, but what do you think his legacy is?
40:57
Yeah, Zhukov has a very mixed legacy because First off, like
41:02
you said, in modern Russia, Subarov, Kutuzov and Zhukov are
41:07
considered in their minds at least, the greatest Russian
41:11
slash Soviet generals ever, right?
41:14
And mainly because all three of them either won great victories
41:17
or say Russia, the Soviet Union in times of deaths for me, like
41:20
Tusaf Bordenino and the rest of the T12 campaign.
41:24
Well, Zhukov literally did that in the Great Patriotic War, as
41:28
it's called in Russia Today of the Second World War, right?
41:31
So Zhukov has that going for him.
41:34
But one problem for his legacy that the least in the West has
41:40
is that he's controversial in the fact that the Russian slash
41:46
Soviet winking of wars is that you throw men into the battle.
41:50
It doesn't matter if they're going to die or not, you're
41:51
going to throw more men in there.
41:53
Zhukov is criticized, sometimes unfairly, for that because it's
41:57
certain battles he gets a keep, like especially Mars.
42:00
He shouldn't have continued on launching a man into the battle
42:04
when obviously it wasn't working to begin with.
42:06
So why continue on? But at other times, like in the
42:11
operation by Gratian or in the Vista odor offensive that drives
42:16
him to almost to the gates of Berlin, there is some accusation
42:20
of him sending men to death when they could have been used better
42:23
elsewhere. But on the flip side, he is
42:26
actually pretty good at saving men's life overall.
42:29
And that is a remarkable thing considering that from the
42:32
Russian Soviet point of view, you just throw men into the
42:36
battle until the battle won. That's just how they always
42:39
fight because they the two things you always hear about
42:42
Russia and the Soviet Union is they have land to retreat and
42:45
men to throw in the battle. And that's what they used to win
42:49
their wars. When they fight wars, that's how
42:52
they do it. Yeah, I mean, is he Alexander
42:55
the Great or Napoleon or Caesar? Probably not, but the guy won a
42:58
lot of battles. Yes, he he's, he's not Napoleon.
43:02
One thing that I didn't really suck a lot about is, is that
43:07
part of the reason why, another reason why some commanders
43:10
didn't always work with him is that Zukov had a short fuse.
43:13
If you didn't do something right, or if the plan wasn't
43:17
going like it was supposed to, he would just get so upset that
43:20
he just continued to throw men into the pedal and try to win.
43:24
And that didn't always work well.
43:26
That's where he's not like Napoleon, he's not like Caesar,
43:29
right? He can't always, like I can send
43:32
men this way to win the battle when I'm going to do it this way
43:35
because that's the plan set and that's my plan and that's how it
43:38
works. So adjusting on the fly wasn't
43:41
his style. He would just throw more men
43:43
into it, yeah. Not always the best.
43:45
Sometimes when he was at his cool, it was he was good at it.
43:50
But specifically, there's what's called the Battle of Cee Lo
43:53
Heights right before Berlin and 45 he launches an attack on
43:58
along his entire front. And there's these heights right
44:01
in front of Berlin and he. The plan was to shine lights on
44:05
the Germans and breakthrough. It fails almost immediately, but
44:09
Zhukov gets so upset with it that he sends in the tanks and
44:12
that his arm is too quick and all the men in too quickly and
44:15
it costs three days before they can get going.
44:18
Meanwhile, his rival Ivan Kovanov to the South of him is,
44:23
well, already on the March. He's, I mean, halfway to Berlin.
44:25
And so this is where Stalin's playing off each Zhukov and
44:29
Kovanov, because he's like telling Zhukov, you better get
44:32
going. Kovanov is going to take Berlin.
44:34
But Zhukov didn't have to really worry because once he broke
44:37
through, he gets going. But again, Zhukov has a problem
44:41
when he loses his cool and sometimes that's not to his
44:45
benefits. Sometimes it is in certain
44:47
cases. Well, yeah, and that's not going
44:48
to endear you to your men or your junior officers if you're
44:51
just hurling them at you can't win or tough win embedded
44:56
positions. That'll just make everyone under
44:58
you not like you very much. Yep.
45:00
Yeah. Well, that was great.
45:01
Yeah. I learned about a lot about
45:02
Zuckoff. I really appreciate that.
45:04
Seth, just a quick call out. If you're not following our
45:07
Facebook and Twitter pages for Generals of World War Two,
45:10
please do so. And yeah, Seth, this was five
45:13
with us. Thank you for coming on the
45:14
show. I really appreciate it.
45:15
Well, thank you for having me, John.
45:17
Enjoyed it? Yeah, my pleasure.