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Jessica Chen: The Smart Approach to Bold Communication · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Jessica Chen.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: She is an Emmy Award winner, top virtual keynote speaker and CEO of Soulcast Media, a global business communication training agency.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Her client list includes companies such as Google, linkedin, the CDC, medtronic, mattel, hp, draftkings and many, many more.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Prior to starting Soulcast Media, jessica was a broadcast television journalist.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: She's also internationally recognized top LinkedIn learning instructor, where her communication courses have been watched over 2 million learners and featured in Forbes, fortune and Entrepreneur.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: She lives in Los Angeles and she is the author of Smart, not Loud how to Get Noticed at Work.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: For All the Right Reasons.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to jump into your definition of bold.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: So what does bold look like in Jessica's world?
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: For me, that word is very simple, and the way I think about bold is having the courage to try something new.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: The courage to try something new takes boldness, and the reason why is because when it's new, you never really know what the outcome is going to be, and so in many ways it feels risky, right?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So I think the way I think about the word bold is the courage to try something new.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, I love that.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: So there's an unknown to your definition.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Right, there's an uncertainty, unknown, potential risk that surrounds it, but you do it anyway.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's the key.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: You do it anyways, despite feeling scared, uncertain, frustrated, right?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Any of those feelings that can easily hold us back.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: We're like wait a second, no, no, no, no, no.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to let it stop me.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I'm going to continue going forward.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I think that's bold.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Do you have a bold, memorable moment attached to that type of definition?
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I have a funny story.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Where do I start?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: But I have.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I have one key story that I think actually sets the groundwork for the work that I did as a former television journalist.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: So when I first graduated college, when I was what?
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: 21 years old or so, I desperately wanted to be a broadcast journalist.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: When I first graduated college, when I was what?
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: 21 years old or so, I desperately wanted to be a broadcast journalist.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to work at, you know, abc, nbc, all those television stations.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: That was my dream career and at the time granted, this was about like 15, maybe almost even 20 years ago, and I was, like you know, I got to differentiate myself from all the thousands of other applicants who are applying for maybe just the two, three roles available at each station.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: So I decided to do something bold.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I actually strategically identified the top television stations that I wanted to work at my quote, unquote dream station stream companies, and I decided to do a week-long driving trip to each of these television stations and let the hiring managers know, just very casually, that's the thing, it was very casual and I wrote them an email saying hey, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods on this day around this time.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I'd love to just stop by and drop off my resume and say hi.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: And I remember even thinking about this, even thinking about that story today, I'm like, wow, jessica, you were really quite bold, because you know, there was no guarantee that they were going to actually open the door and let me in and I wasn't asking for an interview.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: So, mind you, these interactions, despite driving two, three, four hours, were maybe just like a five 10 minute.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Hey, nice to meet you.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: But the idea is I wanted to show face.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I wanted to show them that I had this passion and I was interested in it and even though it was a lot of effort for me and it was, of course, very minimal effort for them they just have to go out and step outside the office I just want to show also myself that if I really want something, sometimes you just got to go out and do it.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Right and you do things that other people don't do right you know one is you know consistency could be one thing that you know you're consistently doing things that other people don't do.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: You're consistently communicating you by getting in the car and driving like everybody doesn't do that Right.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: So some people would worry about well, what if they think this or what if they think that?
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: And you're like well, I'm going to do it anyway, because I do think there's extreme ROI on in-person and connection and smiling I mean, zoom does its best, but it's just not the same and certainly mailing someone and hoping it gets in the right hands.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: You're depending on a lot of hopefulness that gets to the right person right, exactly, and at the time, you know, we were just relying on emails or just using a typical hiring platform where people apply for jobs, or there wasn't social media back then.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Really, maybe that was just like when Facebook just started or something right, but the idea was more of the mentality of you know what I really want this, I really care about this, and you know I'm 21.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: I just graduated college.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: I have some time.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Did anyone think you were crazy for doing that, or try to tell you not to do it?
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes when we're being bold, people are like, well, that's a waste of time or you know, that's going to cost you X.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Did anyone try to talk you out of it?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: My mom was like what are you doing?
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Like why are you doing this?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: What's the logic in that?
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Are you sure that's a good idea?
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the funny part of the story was I actually brought my mom with me.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Oh fun, she ended up being kind of like my counterpart and it actually ended up being a very fun mother and daughter trip Because we basically drove like not cross country but cross state here in California, stopping by at all the major cities where there are television stations.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: That it was just a good bonding moment and it was really nice too, because it really showed that my mom supported me, she understood, and it kind of got her to see.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: You know, actually, really, it just allowed us to have that quiet time in the car together just to talk, right, because I had just graduated and anyway.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: So I think, no matter what and let me tell you, even just doing that, being bold and driving from like the different television stations and trying to drop off my resume, it wasn't 100% success rate either.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Right, it wasn't that every person said, yeah, come on like, let me.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Let me take a look at your resume.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: There were some no responses, no thank yous, right, which was, of course, discouraging, but at the end of the day, you know, I was like well, I got like at least a decent number of you know yeses in terms of let me check out your resume and at the end of the day, I bonded with my mom, so it was pretty cool.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great memory too right.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: You'll both have that forever, so I love that on so many levels.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So you got your job.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: You landed your job.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I got a job eventually a few months later at the NBC station in Reno, nevada, and that was my first reporter job on television.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, and then what did that mean to you, from the sense of kind of getting into that role, which it sounded like as you were describing it?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: From the sense of kind of getting into that role, which it sounded like as you were describing it, like the number of roles is extremely low and, you know, being able to get into one of those roles is, you know, I'm sure there's lots of competition.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: So, like, when you get to that, that point, do you feel like you've made it?
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's you're good to go, or what happens at that time?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: So that's actually the beginning of the real story of all the things and all the problems I ended up facing once I started working Because I thought, yes, I got this job, I'm so happy I get to start my career.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: But the problem was when I first started working and it was at this television station I experienced what I call a lot of communications friction.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: I essentially felt like it was a culture shock in many ways starting to work, and I'll share what I mean by that.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So I grew up in a very conservative, traditional family where I was taught you just got to work hard, you got to study hard, put your head down, just do the work, you know, don't try to seek the spotlight, be humble, right Like, don't put yourself out there.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: And in many ways so I'm.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I'm Asian American, my parents immigrated here, so in many ways I feel like sometimes that is an immigrant mentality.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: You come to a new country and you just work hard because you're just trying to survive, right.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: And for us kids, you know, they told us to embody the same traits.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Now, when I started working on television, as you can imagine, in a loud newsroom, you're suddenly surrounded by very charismatic, extroverted, assertive people, people who are not afraid to advocate for themselves, share their ideas and challenge people, and I remember feeling that culture shock like whoa, like I'm sitting here in a meeting and I'm like in my head thinking, can I do this, can I do that?
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Is it okay, is it not?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And I see my you know perhaps more veteran colleagues and they're just like disagreeing with my manager and saying no, I don't think that's a good idea.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: And it just kind of made me realize like wait a second a lot of the principles in how I was raised which were amazing and helped me succeed are not necessarily the same behaviors needed to succeed in a fast paced corporate world.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: And so that's where I really started to think about communications, thinking about building visibility, which is really what Smart, not Loud the book is about.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Right, and then, what brought you to the point where you actually created your own agency, soulcast?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I ended up staying in the journalism field for about 10 years.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, I moved around.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: So I was at NBC, I moved to New York for a few years working out there and then my last stop was at the ABC station in San Diego, california, which is actually where I won an Emmy award.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: And it's funny because when you win an Emmy award, that's considered the most prestigious award in the television industry.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And suddenly when you win an award like that, a lot of opportunities unfold, like you can go basically anywhere, you can go national, anything that you want.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: It becomes much easier.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: But for me I decided to make a career pivot because I always hold, which is that point.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly Cause you're kind of like you feel like you've reached this like high in your career and it's kind of like most people are like, well, you just got to keep going, right.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the reason, and I think for many of us we might experience this too, where we're good at what we do and we've done it for quite a while, but there's just maybe that itch or some curiosity where you're like I've always been fascinated in this one thing and maybe it's not the 100% best time, but when is it ever going to be the best?
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: It's never perfect.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Right yeah.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It's never perfect, yeah, but the situation, the scenario felt as good as it could get and I was like you know what, let me just try.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: So I decided to leave news and start soulcast media, which is my communications training company, because I wanted to help people who, like me, really struggled with communicating.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: And when I mean struggle, I mean things like you work hard, you're smart, you studied everything, you did as you were told right, but you feel like now, when you're working, getting that visibility, advocating for yourself, giving great presentations at work.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Those skills don't necessarily come easily and I realized there's a large group of us who resonate with that and I wanted to really work with these people.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: So Soulcast Media we started about five, six years ago and I'm so happy to say we've taught over 2 million people now how to improve communications.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've talked with Bernice Chow, with the.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: You know the visibility mindset and the connections to that as well, and this really is kind of talking about the particulars when it comes to our communication, our communication style, from a quiet culture and be living in a loud culture, right Coming from two different worlds.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: So, exactly, exactly.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm assuming that's why you wanted to write it.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in the title, though.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Why did you choose that particular title?
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Smart, not loud.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: How to get noticed at work for all the right reasons.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the smart, not loud part right, the smart, not loud part.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: So here's a funny story when I sold my book to my publisher actually this book wasn't even called smart, not loud the funny story is I wanted to call this book quiet Capital.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to call it Quiet Capital because I wanted to write this book for those who tend to be on the quieter side at work, where being assertive, being dominant, being that more aggressive person is just not your style.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: These were the people I wanted to speak, to work with, because in many ways that's me Like I don't consider that my communication style.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: So in the book I talk about how it isn't about changing who you are Like if you are naturally more quiet, perhaps more introverted, it's not about being loud or extroverted to succeed.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: In fact, that's not what I'm advocating for.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I'm actually saying you got to be smart about it, smart in how you communicate, how you position yourself, and none of this has to do with being aggressive or even necessarily assertive, unless that is your style, right, and that's kind of what I'm saying.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: This is where it kind of goes back to, you know, showing up at work in an authentic way, right?
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And here's the other thing.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: You know, I also find, even though I wrote this book for my quiet culture folks that's what I call quiet culture folks who are now working in a loud culture I've also found this book is very valuable for those who tend to be on the louder side, who have no problems communicating, because what we know is just because you're loud, it doesn't necessarily mean you're heard either.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Or smart or smart, and I think us even talking about this, some of us are like I know exactly who in my life.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: you're talking about A few people have come to mind.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly, they just talk.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: They just talk all the time, but it's like is it really impactful?
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So, at the end of the day, this is a communications book and it's a way to help folks feel like they can learn how to be more of that impactful communicator.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so can you define for us and for the listeners what is a quiet culture and what is a loud culture, so that we all come from the same base as we jump into the book?
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: So quiet culture and being raised in a quiet culture means all those things I just talked about.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: If you are taught to be more humble, to be more modest, to not seek the spotlight, to avoid conflict, to basically just kind of keep your head down and work and study hard, right, I call that quiet culture traits.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And for many of us, including myself, and even in certain cultures, there's an emphasis on embodying quiet culture traits.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: But in and this is what I argue in the book in many Western, in even global workplaces where it's very fast paced, perhaps bigger companies, right, it's like you gotta stand out, and that is embodying loud culture traits.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: And there's in many ways, an emphasis and reward for people who can embody the loud culture traits, which are your ability to advocate for yourself, your ability to articulate your thoughts, not being afraid to shy away from the spotlight.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Right, and the whole idea is one is not better than the other.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: In fact I think you need both.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: But the friction happens when one person who is in one cultural context is what I call a cultural context, is placed in another right.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: So if a quiet culture person is placed in a loud culture or vice versa, then suddenly it becomes a bit hard.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: The culture shock.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So you know, when I talk about the things that I teach is, again, it's not about changing who you are.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: It's actually expanding the values that you hold dear, but being a little bit more intentional about it, okay.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: So when we start out reading the book, one of the things is just noticing or recognizing one that you are that person, right.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that is me right, identifying that that is kind of where you're coming from and how you've operated or how you operate in your work world.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: So what's one way, if someone's reticent to try, or they're nervous or they're anxious or creates anxiety, honestly for many to kind of put themselves out there there, what can they do as they start off into this?
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Now we're going to talk about the 4A sequence and some of the things around tone and but just even realizing that it's okay to try something, Exactly.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: And I have to say what's been interesting about even the process of talking about.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: You know what I do, which is building visibility, and how important it is, you know, when we look at the people who we work with and even ourselves.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I think in the workplace we often think about introverts and extroverts right, that's the personality types that we all know.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: But I feel like and this is kind of a personal experience for me and this is where the struggle and the friction really happen when I'm around my family and friends, I feel like there's no problems communicating.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Like, when I'm around my family and friends, I feel like there's no problems communicating.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Like I feel extroverted in many ways.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Like you know, socializing, networking with people I'm comfortable with, it's easy.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: So in some ways it's like oh, jessica seems more extroverted, but in the workplace it's now because my environment is different, the people I'm around is different.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Perhaps it's more formal that now I'm embodying more of those more introverted personality traits.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: But I think what's important for us to see is the way a person shows up in the workplace does go beyond personality, which is introvert and extrovert, how we show up.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: A lot of it is how we were raised.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So that's why I talked about those principles, and so your question was you know, how can somebody even just take step one right, like how can they even just get comfortable knowing that this is what they should be doing, or at least it's a mindset?
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: So what I have realized is, no matter how smart you are or how hardworking you are or how much you deserve something, you can't assume people are going to notice or that things are going to come to you because it's automatic.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I've learned that if it's something that you want, it's something that you care about.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: You have to get good at putting yourself out there, which in many ways, is bold.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Right, get in the car, get in the car, just get in the car.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Exactly Right.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Because I used to think and again I think this is maybe the quiet culture mentality was, if you work hard, then the promotions will happen.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Right, if you're smart, people will notice, but not necessarily.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: People are busy, people got things to do.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Right, they may notice quickly, but it's your job to make sure that you keep it top of mind.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: And so just this mindset shift of knowing, oh, being proactive is actually quite important, and there's like a thing that I like to share with folks.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: You know, there's what I call the working us and the communicating us.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: It's two sides to us, the communicating us is our ability to get things done, execute.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Sides to us, the communicating us is our ability to get things done, execute, hit our deadlines.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: You know, make sure we have our goals in line and we hit.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: You know, again, it's our execution, our working us.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: But just as important is the communicating us and that is the one that where a lot of us don't think too much about because we got this, the first one down.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: You know, we're smart, we're brilliant, we're hardworking, but how do we pitch an idea so people listen?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: How do we give great presentations so it resonates?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: How do we ask for what we want?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: That's the communicating side and I think we need both.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: So I think even just understanding these two things can help us give, give us the motivation to go.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I do got to invest in improving myself.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: When you were talking, I was thinking about personal brand, which you know, I certainly didn't think about when I was in my thirties and forties, you know.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: But certainly now in my own business and you know, as I'm doing more and more things like it is, it's more and more important.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And then you're communicating in different ways.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you're in a room, you're doing the things that you know direct communication, presenting, speaking, advocating.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: You know, talking across your organization and you're also speaking in your social media.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: You're speaking.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: You know, in the different ways that you communicate with others about who you are, what you do and why you're different and why you're awesome.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that's really hard for people sometimes is they feel like that's bragging or that's not humble or it's vulnerable, and I think those are some of the things.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I've definitely wrestled with that.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: You know, certainly over time, like when I started on LinkedIn, I had 80 followers.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Now I have 18,000.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And I think for me I had to just, you know, loosen up a little bit.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: In many ways, yeah Right.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: So I think for me, like I had to just, you know, loosen up a little bit In many ways, yeah, yeah, so I think what you just talked about I think helps people kind of get to that place where they can make that, you know, and you should feel comfortable.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I would say, I don't know, 50% of the time doing it, like it's not going to be this total comfort.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: When you first start doing it it gets easier.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: But I think you know, ultimately, like I'm not like 100%, yeah, this is awesome.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Every time that I do it I'm still kind of getting used to it, even after four years.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: So I think I'm much better at sharing, because I think that's also like you're sharing your journey.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: It helps people understand it's human to feel this way.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: It isn't always like.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm 10X and I'm doing this and I'm awesome and I made a million dollars overnight and all that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: There's realness to like just going through the process that you go through in the book, as well as just understanding some of the things that you were taught to do or how you were raised.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: You almost feel, in a way, like you're not listening to your parents, even when you're in your forties and fifties and trying to do something.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like that comes up to like oh, I'm you.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of it has to come down to how you communicate it, right.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's easy for us to default to all the things you just said.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, am I doing too much?
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Is it not humble?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Am I boasting?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Is it going to be perceived the wrong way?
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So there are two thoughts to this that I want to share, and you mentioned first the personal brand.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I actually, in the book, I call it shaping your career brand, and I like to think about it as like a career brand, because in many ways, how we show up professionally is our career brand.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And my whole thing is you know, if you don't control the narrative of your career brand, somebody else is going to control it for you.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Right, and just think about this If you become just the yes person for this kind of project, suddenly you get boxed into that role.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, Jessica, she's always been doing this project, Just give her more of that.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Right, and in many ways, you are okay with it because you want to be seen as a team player, you want to collaborate, but it might not be something that you want to continue doing.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: So you got to be good at being able to figure out, okay.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Well, what do I actually want to be known as?
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And then, how can I expand my impact?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not just being the yes person or just doing as you're told, or just doing what's easy, right?
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I think what can really accelerate our career is getting crystal clear on okay, what do I actually want to do?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: And just that clarity in and of itself, which does take some introspection, can truly make a huge difference in the projects you end up doing and how you spend your time.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: And then going back to what you're saying of, you know, just putting yourself out there and not having that negative voice in your head.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I said it goes back to communications.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: As long as you always remember this, if you think about your audience, what they care about, you won't focus on is this right, Is this good, Is it smart?
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Instead, you're thinking about who am I talking to?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: What do they care about and how can I make sure what I'm saying resonates with them?
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: The best communicators always think about these things.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: What's also powerful about it is it's less about you and how scared or insecure you feel, which I know is a very real feeling but you're almost switching your mentality of.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: It's not about me.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: It's about providing as much value I can, whether it's on LinkedIn, social media or via email, right or Slack or whatever channels people use.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: It's not about questioning whether you should or shouldn't.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: It's about how can I reframe it so that I'm communicating the value right, it's the bigger cause, the bigger mission, the bigger message, right.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And I think it takes the pressure off you when you think of it like that, because we all want to be liked, we all want to at least I think so want to be accepted.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: We want to be known as being smart and competent and capable and, you know, good team player and all those things.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: But when we make it about us, I think it becomes easy to kind of get in our head or or fall behind in the sense of, like you know, I'm not sure I should talk, Nope, it's too late.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: You know, like, oh, I really want to know.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, she said it, you know.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Like you know, we've all had those moments.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: But I think you had such an important point there Like when we make it bigger than us, it becomes actually easier to be us, honestly, because it's not about that, it's not about me shining bright, but ultimately when you do that, you do seem to be noticed and then people understand more of what you're possibly capable of, or even what you're already doing that they didn't see before, right, exactly so all those things of like what are people going to think about me?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: or you know, all those like negative self-doubt, which is so easy, that can just easily consume us, where, therefore, we end up muting ourselves many of the times, right?
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: But what I have found is, if you communicate to other people why you're excited about it and how it can help them, people are probably going to be excited for you too, because now they understand the value of it.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Versus if you had approached it with look at me and how amazing it is.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Like, that communications approach is probably not as strategic.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It's thinking about I'm excited about this and look how it has helped all of us.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Right, I think that is more.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: That's more powerful.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's too.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I think evolution of the definition of success has occurred, because I think, at least a lot of the times that I was raised, whether it's in school or, you know, in college or in the workplace, there's a lot of individual success you have to show, to even get the role, get the opportunity be in that school Like you're having to show all these things that you did on your own singly right, and then you have to change in the sense of your mindset of like this isn't just about my success, this is about our success, and some make that pivot easily and then I think some don't, and I think that's where you might have some loud people who don't have that higher mission as well.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: So I think you know definitely some dynamics in organizations that we have to approach.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: As one specific thing that you talk about from a concept and strategy perspective that's in the book is it's called the 4A sequence, so it's called active listening.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: The 4As are active listening, acknowledging, anchoring and answering.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Can you help me and the listeners understand how that helps us?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: You helps us speak up and be noticed and potentially kind of contribute in a different way than we normally would in a meeting or in a large group.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is actually one of my favorite tactical communication strategies and I'm so happy we're talking about it.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: So a 4A sequence is a way of helping you chime in during meetings when it might feel a bit difficult to, and difficult can mean because maybe it's a big meeting, maybe because there's a lot of senior leaders in the meeting and therefore we feel intimidated, or maybe it's just we are in our own heads sometimes and we just cannot identify when is that right time.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: So the 4A sequence is a way of thinking about how you want to approach it, and I'll dive into each one of them in a little bit more detail.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: So first A is active listening, and it's like, of course, active listening.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: But the opposite of active listening is passive listening, and if we want to make sure we are noticed for the right reasons, we have to at least try to challenge ourselves to say something at least once in a meeting.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Say something, or even just, if you're on Zoom or Teams, to at least engage in conversation with people, because the fact people can hear you or see your name is part of that building that visibility.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: And active listening is part of that, because the opposite is when you go into a meeting and you're just listening, but without the intention to speak, your mindset is completely different.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like you know watching a show or watching a movie, you're sitting there on the couch passively enjoying.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But when you know you're going into this meeting and you are going to contribute one way or the other, it changes your whole mindset.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: So active listening to identify when could be the right time to speak up and that right time could be either that split second pause or when now the conversation has moved into something where you know you can provide value.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: So that's active listening.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Now it goes into acknowledging.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: So acknowledging is if you are planning to speak in a meeting, how can you chime in to create a more seamless fluidity in the conversation flow?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: It's such an interesting thing to think about because we've all been in conversations where it seems like somebody is just like very abruptly interjecting and it's just like you know.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Then the dynamic is all strange.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: But you know, because I come from the journalism world, we think about this a lot and this is actually very practical too for those in the professional field.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Acknowledging is simply saying hey, jennifer, that's a really good idea.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Or, matt, what you just said reminded me of.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So you're acknowledging and you're explicitly letting the person know that you heard them, which is a very psychological thing, because if somebody feels acknowledged, then they are now more willing to listen to what you have to say, versus feeling defensive or feeling like someone cut them off.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: So acknowledge and then you anchor.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Anchor is essentially repeating one or two words.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: That person just said so, matt, you mentioned the data from that report, so I'm anchoring by repeating data and that report that he mentioned.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Or, jennifer, you talked about that amazing podcast you just listened to last week.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Right, this is strategic because it connects your point to what they just talked about.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: So it creates that fluidity.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: And then, finally, a.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: The last A is answer.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Now you say what you want to say.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: So the 4A sequence is a way of thinking about work and speaking in a meeting that we might not have thought about before, but it is very powerful to get people to listen.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: And what you just described in that 4A sequence is something you can do in zoom or in person.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: So I think that's really helpful for people to hear and know that it's just that simple and even like just putting a sticky on the side of the of their laptop.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: If they was like, okay, I'm actively, I'm not passive, I'm not my camera's on, you know, like those types of things.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Because do you think with all the things that we're doing remotely now that it's maybe people might have stepped back into being more quiet or not wanting to stand out?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think that is maybe exacerbated, some of the quiet culture?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's much easier to stay visible when we are working remotely, because it's just easy to keep our cameras off or to just sit back and passively listen in meetings right, because no one can see us right.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Sit back and passively listen in meetings right, because no one can see us right.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: But I think, if anything, it is more important for us to be proactive about finding ways to get noticed.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: And here's the thing it's not like it has to happen all the time or even in every single meeting, because, let's be real, that can be exhausting.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: But if you know that you have an important meeting coming up where there are important key stakeholders in that meeting, I think thinking about how we show up, how we communicate, using the for a sequence, right, you know chiming in, making sure we're thinking about who our audience is and what they care about.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: These are the I call it.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: You know the high ROI times where you know, when you do speak, when you do show face, right, that it can really make an impact.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the ding, ding, ding moment right, it's going to be seen.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: It's like you're hitting the mark, so to speak.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: So another thing that you talk about is a technique in communication.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: You particularly talk about the five elements of our voice, and we don't always think about that.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: So the five elements that you talk about are pitch rate, intensity, inflection and quality.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: So how can we utilize these and start to use them as an effective way for us to communicate in a better, more succinct, smarter way, so that we can have presence and be visible?
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love talking about tone of voice because instinctively, a lot of people think tone is just the sound of my voice and in many ways it is right.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: When someone calls you, they're like oh, it's Jessica or whoever right.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: But if we want to think about being a strategic communicator, we have to know that there are actually elements to our tone that we can change.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: In fact we should change it.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: So I'll share kind of the five and as I go through the five, you know I would encourage folks to even just think about, oh yeah, like how can I better utilize these different elements in different ways?
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Because it's the variety in all of them that keeps people engaged.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: So the first one is pitch, and that's essentially how high or how low your voice is.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Now we know men tend to have lower pitches, women tend to have higher pitches, but we all of us have a range.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we can lower our pitch because we want to exhibit more gravitas in our speaking.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: But maybe sometimes, if we're excited, like we're talking to our friends or someone we're super comfortable with, we speak in a higher tone.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: But the idea is you need to know when to switch it up.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: It's not like this flat line pitch.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: The second one is intensity, and this is essentially how loud your voice is.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: If you are excited, sometimes you'll speak in a louder voice, but if you are more shy and timid, you might speak in a softer voice.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: But the thing is it's not about one or the other, because sometimes if you're too loud it can come off as aggressive too right, like why is she shouting at me?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, if you speak too soft, then it's going to feel less exciting or people are not going to understand or see the passion or feel that, right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: So again, the key is variety.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you speak louder, sometimes you intentionally speak slower because people will lean in.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh, it's going to be good, right.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: The next is rate.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: So that's essentially how fast you're talking.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Right, the next is rate.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: So that's essentially how fast you're talking.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: People who tend to be nervous talk very fast.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: They want to get it over with, they're giving a presentation and this is like this is awful, I don't want to do it.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: So they just talk really fast.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: But people who also talk too slow, it can be boring too to listen to, right.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So again, variety.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you speak fast, sometimes you speak low and you want to speak maybe slower if you're trying to put emphasis on something, which then goes into the fourth one inflection.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Inflection are certain key words in your speaking that you want people to know.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: This is the most important part, like even just right now, when I said this, that was me inflecting and that was intentional.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: So, finally, the fifth one is quality, and quality is what's inherent.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Do you tend to have a raspy voice, hoarse voice, squeaky voice?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Now, in the communications world, we say you can control the first four.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: You can't really control the last one, and that's actually fine, that's okay, that's actually unique to you.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: So, when we think about being a strategic communicator and giving great presentations, I want you to think about using the first four elements, because that's interesting.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that and again, these are things that you can practice.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: You can, you know, you can, you know, have a friend you could talk to your dog like or read a book out loud.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: That's a great way to practice it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know just the more you do it, the more comfortable it gets, and I think that repetition will help you in kind of practicing those, those five specific parts of your voice.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: So, as we kind of end, I think one of the things I want to ask is you've worked with thousands and thousands of people around this and communicating.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: You've had your own experience and you know, been in the journalism world and been out there yourself.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: So what are some of the common pitfalls that people fall into or experience when they're trying to step out into a loud culture when they've been in a quiet culture?
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Are there things to avoid that?
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Now that you know that you've seen this so many times, what can they avoid when it comes to starting out and starting to advocate and step out into that louder culture?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the one main takeaway is knowing that what we just talked about of there's two sides to us.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Just because we are smart, we are hardworking, it doesn't necessarily mean the opportunities, the promotions, the raises that those are going to happen automatically, maybe early on in our career, where it is more structured, where you hit two years and then another two years, and it's kind of like that trajectory.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: But I have found the higher up you go, the more years you work, the more intentional you have to be, and it's not just then about working hard and being smart in what you do.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: It's about being able to communicate and it's being able to know how to advocate for yourself, including asking for what you want, following up, celebrating your wins and even saying no right.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: These are all skills and these are often the softer skills that can really make a difference.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And we touched upon this very lightly.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: But you know, even thinking about your career brand, right and I said this earlier and I really believe this If you don't control the thinking about your career brand right and I said this earlier and I really believe this If you don't control the narrative of your career brand, you will find yourself easily boxed into roles and projects that don't necessarily help you or excite you and just you thinking that isn't going to change anything unless you do something about it, right?
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it is.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: It's not about being quiet or loud or loud and quiet, right, it's not really that.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: It's knowing who and what resonates with you, whether you're a more quiet culture, loud culture, but going beyond that and expanding how you show up in the workplace that you're at, and I think all of this is very learnable.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: So I think there's incredible tips and resources in the book, so everyone should pick up the book.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: All the information is in the episode notes and I want everyone to think about having this on the shelf as a leader and for their staff, because you may not know when someone's struggling with this or not.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: So I think you know thinking about even who we can support in our organizations and in our communities that we have, so people don't have to maybe step out themselves, but giving the opportunity to connect with the book and with you.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Is there anything next for you that we should know about?
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Well, the book just came out not too long ago, so we are still in full celebration.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: You know mode and we're excited to see the feedback of folks who are now reading this book.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Because, as a first time author, you know mode and we're excited to see the feedback of folks who are now reading this book.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Because, as a first time author, you know a lot of times when you've been working on something for so long and you feel like it's going to help so many people, but now getting feedback, it's it's honestly the best feeling.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So I mean, honestly, there's nothing better, in my opinion, than having a book and reading it and it's your time, right.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: You're kind of in that learning mode.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: So, really, just the book and connect with me.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I'm very active on LinkedIn.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I talk a lot about communications there, so if there's any questions about your communications or maybe the things you're struggling with, I mean please, please, reach out.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: All the information below Appreciate you being on the Bull Downs, jessica.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: All the information below Appreciate you being on the Bold Lounge Jessica, thank you for having me.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.