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Books4Guys - Chris DiNote · Books4Guys

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Panama City, Florida.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a good spot.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did you grow up in Florida?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually uh from uh suburbs outside of Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: He headed headed down to warmer weather, huh?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome, man.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Chris, dude, it's so good to have you on the pod today as uh we connected a few weeks back um through kind of a mutual connection, stars aligning, and uh it just kind of worked out to where we were able to become introduced to each other.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And man, I'm excited to uh to talk about your work because it's uh it's a little bit more unique uh as far as like the genre of writing than than what I've had or talked about on the podcast before.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I appreciate being here, Chris, and uh uh all the mutual connections as well.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: It just goes to show you, you know, LinkedIn is good for something, right?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so that's you know, so that's a cool thing.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um how do you where would you like me to guy to start with that?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's a great Yeah, no.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Chris, I'd love for you to start specifically, just just kind of lead us into your how you became interested in writing because you were in the Air Force for a long time.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're kind of uh I saw on your LinkedIn kind of a career break to be a dad and doing some fun things there, still doing some some projects, but you know, how did you talk a little bit about just your journey in in leading you to become interested in in writing books and editing and where you're at now in this this part of your life.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's one of those things that sounds cliche, but I always I was a voracious reader as a kid.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I got started early on.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I remember the first book I read by myself, and that was The Spooky Old Tree, you know, uh Stan and Jan Bernstein, Berenstein, you know, yeah, uh Mandela effect moment, right?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I've always enjoyed it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um my favorite stuff to do in school were the creative writing assignments, you know, and my m my dad especially really enthusiastically supported me in that.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I it was just something we always enjoyed, you know.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was a it was a I had a family background where everybody had some sort of artistic inclination, even though it wasn't really uh career uh stuff for us, it was all hobby stuff, but um a lot of folks in my family that could draw, that could especially draw, um, play music, a lot of musicians, uh a lot of folks able to play music by ear, a lot of things like uh ceramic work and things like that, you know, little stuff like that.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody had something.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my sister actually went to school for art for um fashion design, if that tells you anything, too.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's it's in the blood.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the blood, it's in the DNA, and it's multi-generational.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I at least uh know of gr my grandfather who could play piano by ear.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had a great uncle who led a big band during the uh the big band era.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: My my uncle had a sketchbook, including his time in Vietnam.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: My dad played music.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm from outside of Philadelphia, grew up in South Jersey, families off from South Philly.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we grew up embedded in the the Philadelphia Mummers Parade, you know, most got so many relatives and that have and family friends that have been involved in that for their whole lives.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there was always something.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: It almost became a you gotta do something.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I played music growing up.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I played in a couple bands too.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and actually, um, so I I've always done uh some writing.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Even when I was like in college, um, I tried to do a little bit of creative writing on the side.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was a little busy, you know, at the Air Force Academy, so that really wasn't much of a hobby there.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, let's see.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um for academic interests, I was always interested in history.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I got two degrees in that, so I'm not afraid of writing either.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I've done a lot of writing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Most of it nonfiction and academic work or professional work.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, I was in the Air Force, I was a career intelligence officer, a lot of briefings, a lot of PowerPoint presentations, a lot of report writing.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's me and the the s me and the written and spoken word are good friends, if you want to look at it that way.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool that you say that you that you grew up reading, because I I was the complete opposite.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't hate reading.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I read what I was, you know, told to read for homework and that, but I really didn't enjoy reading for I didn't I didn't enjoy it for just personal enjoyment.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I had some friends that did, and I was always like, Man, why are you guys reading?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's go play something.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: But that's kinda, you know, part of my journey in reading is I picked it up later in life and then I realized how great of a thing it is and how beneficial it can be personally and professionally.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's cool that you're like, I mean, I I I've always liked.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I I picked up at an early age, and that's a good thing.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was a lousy ball player.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's part of it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, you know, it was uh, you know, it wasn't exactly popular either.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I looking for things to help fill my time.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, probably two things that really, really did it for me.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I was about ten, I think, my great aunt gave me a box set of the first six John Carter novels because she knew I was in the science fiction and stuff like that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I worked in the local public library branch as uh as a teenager in high school.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to read whatever the heck I wanted anytime I wanted, pretty much.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so it was just, you know, I had the opportunities to just dig into all of it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And from an early enough age that I was sort of able to start forming my own opinions about it early on, too, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't wait for school to tell me what to think about a certain writer.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't wait for English class or critics or anything like that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, believe it or not, I was a point in time where I read literary criticism for fun, if that tells you how messed up I am in the head, right?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's not something I generally recommend, but it's even still haven't gotten to that that level of reading yet.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I gotta care about the author, first of all.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like uh and and it it just taught me a lot.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: It taught me a lot because I'm wasn't a particular fan of the English classes that I that I had in college or even high school because you know, there's all those sort of academic fads that can do a lot of damage to you, you know, balism and stuff like that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've all got stories about that.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: For just a sooner or later, I I had a question of why is the stuff they tell me I have to read and that I should like, why don't I like it?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's sort of where a lot of that came from.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, okay, here's the reading list.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's okay, that's okay, I like that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Why's this here?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and it was a constant steady drum beat of this is important, and there's something wrong with you if you don't like this.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like, well, no offense to Tony Morrison, you know, it's like, I get it, you know, she is a very capable writer.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not for me, you know, though, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the problem.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing, is being able to say, yeah, got it, that's great.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna let somebody make me feel bad because I don't like it.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's uh if if anything, getting started early allowed me to say that sort of thing with confidence and not care what anybody else says or thinks about it, you know, whether it's some critic or something along them lines.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had a science teacher who was a movie critic for the local paper, and he used to say, every critic is a failed director, every you know, every music critic is a failed art is a failed musician, every literary critic is a failed writer.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I don't know how true that generally speaking is because good criticism does good.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's an important thing.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it's kind of one of those learning it's not just reading, it's learning what to take seriously as far as what other people say about what you're reading.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: What what's what to take seriously and what to kind of say are to heck with it.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that actually shows up a lot now in like how I approach writing and how I approach editing and things like that.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a lot more editing these days, but that's cool.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So like really wanting to do fiction, especially like genre fiction, not just because I grew up enjoying it.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big part of it, because I thought about like, do I want to get into this as I kind of got progressed through my career, my military career, and got close to the end, it was do I really want to start contributing to the conversation?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, is there a white paper or a journal article or an op-ed?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a damn thing I could write that's gonna move the needle in any direction in any useful way?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just gonna be another stack of crap that nobody's gonna read?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they assign something I write in professional military education and it disappears off the face of the planet.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or and I gotta be polite, professional, you know, I can only let out so much of my own personal opinions and personality in it.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I just hit a point of saying, how about I just write what I want and uh be able to say it, but put the context so differently that doesn't come across like that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and on top of that, there's the whole security thing too.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've found if I want to write anything contemporary, it's gonna be in security pre-publication hell forever.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know friends of mine who wrote a book that I highly recommend called Nevermind, we'll do it ourselves, and it's about the origin of the uh the Predator program, the MQ1.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or the art, you know, the origins of, you know, the drone reconnaissance uh program going all the way back to the 90s.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: He was one of the key figures in it, he and his two partners.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: It took them 39 months to get it approved through the intelligence community in the Pentagon to release the book.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: 39 months.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you know, that's that's not exactly conducive to a full-time writing career for pre-pub to go that long.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So writing takes long enough as it is to wait 40 months to get it out there just to be approved.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a long time.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's on top of writing it, researching it, you know what I mean, and everything else about it, you know, so that's probably a six, seven year process.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So oh man, I just said that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: All the kids are gonna laugh now, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um anyway, but but you see what I mean, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like, um, why why what why?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just, you know what I mean?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: That there's a time and place to do that sort of work, and but it wasn't the type of work that I wanted to do, you know.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if I can, if I can stick to things that, you know, allow for a a fairly minimal amount of review, and I've done stuff through pre-pup um and haven't had any issues.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I even, you know, advise my fellow colleagues that are former military or former government professionals, you know, on how to go about the process and keep themselves out of trouble, but also and do the right thing, of course, protecting information.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: But part of my worry has been that after, you know, 26 years or so, I'm gonna forget something that I know I'm not supposed to share, or that I forgot that I'm not supposed to share, and it shows up as something I wrote, and then it's like, oh crap, you know, and it wasn't even intentional or something like that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's there comes a point in time where you don't remember everything, you know, you knew or you thought you knew.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I would rather just sort of avoid that situation to the max extent possible.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Not to mention there's just comes a point in time where it just gets boring.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Do you, Chris, before you move on from that point, I'm curious.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you you were saying like 26 years you forget something, you can write something down and totally not even know it meant anything.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know how the military works in that way.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like when they're track do they do they have people that are tracking that?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you put a published work out there, like someone goes, Hey, I need to read whatever Chris wrote to make sure there wasn't anything in there that's well secretive.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: You have an obligation to do it, first of all, to submit the public view.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, sometimes stuff does get caught out there, you know, and uh, you know, and that can lead to, you know, revisions.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that if you're not careful or if you do it negligently or in intentionally, uh you can find yourself in trouble.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: There was that guy who wrote the the book about the seal raid that got bin Laden, right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think he had to forfeit every single bit uh of money that he made from that.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh, you know, and I and I sure I know there were other consequences.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know them off the top of my head, but you know, I kind of remember that and going, I don't want to end up like that guy.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can imagine that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so that's it's a you know, when you write stories that involve dragons and wizards and stuff, the pre-pub folks tend to go things like move along or sitting there going, hey, just don't mention this, you know what I mean?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: If it's like something like urban fantasy, contemporary fantasy or something like that, change that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, done.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have a nice day.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and we can move on with our lives.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's I would rather the interactions be like that, as opposed to, yeah, dude, y you can publish this, but like the redact, there's gonna be so many redactions in it that's gonna yeah, you just turned your f 300 page book into a five-page essay.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, good luck.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's interesting.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: But Chris, you were hitting on a bunch.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: The main point I was getting out of that, I'm glad you went so deep into it, was just like your personal interest and how really that contributed to you becoming such an active reader at an early age when you were reading things you were interested in.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of what we're promoting here at Voice or uh uh Books for Guys, pick up something that you're interested in.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: No matter what that is, if it's fiction, nonfiction, business, sports, sci-fi fantasy, the the wheels can really get turned if you'll take the chance and pick up something you're interested in.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I was talking about earlier, when you're in school, and you were talking about this in college and all that stuff, you get told to read certain things and you get told to like certain things and not like other things.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really does kind of minimize your potential potenti you know, on on what you can accomplish from reading certain books.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm glad you hit on that, and then now obviously you you transition in your writing and editing a lot within the space that you are interested in.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I want you to talk about the genres a little more in detail that you're in because I was looking at speculative fiction and sci-fi, like there's there's a few different areas that you contribute to, and and I've pro I'll be honest, I personally have not spent a lot of time reading those type of books, but I'm curious about them and just kind of what all they entail and just kind of I don't know, your interest and where that lies within those genres.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first thing is is I try to read as broadly as possible.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I read as much, if not more, nonfiction than I do fiction.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't like I I I I mean, I'll just be honest with you.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I only use genre because it's a marketing term.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Genre isn't real.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's probably some people that'll that this will cause them a heart attack or something like that, but brace yourself.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Science fiction and fantasy aren't genres, they're settings.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: The story is an adventure story.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's really is.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's an adventure story.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it pursues it's a story pursuing something, you know, whether it's knowledge, whether it's an idea, or just rule of cool, let's go blow some stuff up.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so when I when I write and when I edit, um I care more about theme.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Way more about theme than I do about genre.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Way, way, way, way, way, way.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that way more.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's like if you submit to an anthology, I'm editing that this is good, this is just your your your heads up for everybody, you know, too.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's for real.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I care about theme, I don't care about genre.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't care about genre.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I will mix and match because I because part of reading early and working in a library and reading old stuff is that you go back to the early 10th and 19th centuries, or the late, you know, nobody cared.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like literally, you like look up something about like Julian Hawthorne, Nathaniel Hawthorne's son, and you've got stuff that we now we put in the bins like sword and sorcery, science fiction, sword and planet, you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Man, it was the Wild West.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody gave a damn.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading uh a collection of stories by author Manley Wade Wellman.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: He created Flashman, but he that dude also wrote Sword and Sorcery stories.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a collection of his stories I'm reading right now, five of them about a guy who was the last survivor of Atlantis, who in the same story meets biblical giants, a vampire that's making automatons, and an alien from outer space in the same in the breadth of five different short stories.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of different directions.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm saying it is back then nobody cared because the rules hadn't been established yet.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing had become ossified.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and really, if you think about it, these science fiction, fantasy, and all that sort of stuff.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: To me, they're marketing terms or categories, you know, so you can shelve books like behind me.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I shelved plenty of books.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I worked on a library.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's I don't feel I don't I don't feel genre loyalty at all.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel that I that I should put like sort of limitations on that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, and and the because part of the problem is what I see with a lot of contemporary writing is you got too many people who read nothing but that, and then then they're writing.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you get a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whereas it's like rather than just read something that draws from Eastern mysticism, oh, you can read the Tao Beijing, you know what I mean?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like rather than you know, things like that, for example, or rather than reading somebody who's a 17th generation removed writing about Sun Tzu, that might be useful.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you can read the Art of War.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so and there's certain topics that as a result of sort of this VHS effect that people know very little about, and um, they're not well educated.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and to me, I could spot it.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can read it, and I know when somebody really doesn't know what the hell they're talking about, even if they're creating fiction, because their their language is isn't informed by Edgar Rice Burroughs and you know, Alex Williams, uh Williamson, you know, who did Flash Gordon, you know, or Alex Raymond who created Flash Gordon, it's informed by Star Wars, which is, you know, got its inspiration from those those folks.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I mean, I guess if there's one piece of advice, part of it is read old, you know, especially before 1980.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Read old.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've always done that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: One Gen X to begin with, you know, so be turned 49 this year.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I had one foot in that era, you know, the analog childhood, as it were.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so for me, it's like, you know, it's dear homework, I guess.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I I've kind of really gone all over the place with this.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, I've I I kind of want to bring this in because I'm thinking of this like you're saying, like, hey, go read this certain era book or or this book when it comes to this, because it's, you know, this stuff didn't matter like it does today.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm translating what you're saying into to even the way like music is categorized.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: You hear these people cross, you know, crossing over, and everyone's like, you can't do that, you know, the award's only for this specific category, and so like you're almost forced to pick one just so you can put your product out there and have people see it, which you know shouldn't be the case.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But do you do you I guess I'm asking this is do you read certain books because you want to challenge yourself, or do you read them because you are genuinely interested in that era of book?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or is there a mixture?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it seems like you challenge yourself as well as you appreciate it, which means you know you're obviously interested, but there seems to be this like challenge to it as well that you like want to force yourself and you want other people to kind of step up and take that challenge as too.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense why I'm asking?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it does.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I do both.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And some of it is a deliberate challenge because I think I have a long enough lens now to just see how writing has evolved or devolved, and it's like, no, I want to see something that that challenges me a little bit more.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to I don't need to be spoon fed.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I also don't need to be um I also don't need popcorn and and junk food.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm at I'm past that point.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't get me wrong, every now and then, especially back when I was still on active duty, if I was on a trip, I mean I read I most of the time I read was on an airplane, okay?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like short stories and novelettes and novellas that I could consume in the duration of a plane trip out, plane trip back.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, more often than not.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, especially with the type of work that, you know, I was doing, I want to read something stupid and fun.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a time and place for all of that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of what I'm trying to say too.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I I do think people should I I don't think people give themselves enough credit.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they challenge themselves enough at all.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Especially guys when it comes to their reading, they know you know, it's like because you know, they feel abandoned by the publishing industry.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand why.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely understand why.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've got enough of a lens on this from the publishing standpoint and the consumer standpoint, if you will, that I've watched how it's changed over the years.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this isn't made up.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people are like, why aren't guys reading as much?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because what's being published does not interest them.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it it shows a fundamental difference, I think, even in how men and women approach reading.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had a family friend brag that she read 120 books last year.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you're a stay-at-home mom with one kid.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: For us, who are like, yeah, and it's like good for you.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you read that, man.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's for guys, I think we approach things more of an opportunity cost and a return on investment aspect when we decide we're gonna read a book.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is kind of how I approach it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a father of two, you know, that are here.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my 11-year-old is finishing fifth grade.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a 14-month-old, you know.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's and for me, it's a if I'm gonna put my if I'm gonna read this, I damn well better get something out of it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or it had really better scratch an itch.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: It had really, really, really, really better scratch an itch.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So when I try to do things, when I try to write, um, and I'm still young at this, man.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've got, you know, I I've I'm a short story guy with some novel ideas and some start and stop things.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's got works in progress.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm a short story guy.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it for me, a lot of it is how do I get across what I want to get across in the space allotted?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the shorter the the time, the shorter the word count, the more challenging it gets.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's good, it forces you to make choices, to be really parsimonious, to re I mean, if you're good at it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we all fail.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've written stuff that I look back now at and go, yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um but part of part of like what like writing Mill Sci-Fi was my opportunity to put my stamp on what I think military professionalism really is.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and these aren't treatises, these aren't lectures, but I can make a statement about it because it's I'm reflecting it in the character or I'm reflecting it in the situation.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that I just want to talk about as Colonel uh Chris denote.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to talk about.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: of this Christine o you know what I mean?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, without having to put that other hat on, but I I I've got the credibility to talk about it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you should after as as long as as long as I did stuff.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't, that's, you know, you got a problem.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um other stuff I I write because I just wanted I just want to challenge myself and say, can I write a really stupid win in the willows inspired type of short fantasy because I had a writing prompt that was an AI generated picture of a cat and a top hat and 50 word limit.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, heck yeah, I'm going to try that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: My wife really nailed that challenge too.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Rack and Tor Press's predecessor did seven postcard anthologies in a row or 50 words because it fits on a postcard.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And with an art prompt, she got in five out of the seven, so she really figured out the assignment.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I did I got in two and I I felt lucky.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Even my daughter managed to get in one so that just goes to show you.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Remember I said the family and multi-generational stuff.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I have a cousin who's a published poet too.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to write that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I I wrote a story for an anthology called Rock and Roll Mercenaries because I really wanted to write something that taught that reflected sort of my love for oldties and early 60s rock and roll and rock and roll television.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, American Bandstand and the sort of named DJs and being from Philly, you know, Jerry Blavitt and guys like that, because I wanted to write a story that kind of honored my dad and his brothers and all that.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing to do with being in military but the main character's a veteran.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and then like start looking across stuff.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's been heavy on the military stuff.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm still in an early phase of being a writer so I know but write what you want to really talk about.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: For me, you know, issues surrounding things like mental health and moral injury recovery from those things, coming back home literally one of the anthologies I'm in is called Can't Go Home Again.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: There was something very therapeutic about it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And also because as a GWAT veteran too it's like more of us have to get out there and not a lot of us are doing fiction.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know everybody wants to do a memoir or something like that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like first of all my career we my my memoir would need to be too boring to pay attention to or too unbelievable for people to think it was real.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I might as well fictionalize some aspects of it because people find that more believable.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know and then when I started getting into the editing game you know it's because I enjoy making other people's work better.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know I I see I I I feel more like a record producer than an editor.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like the more cowboy else gets, you know, I put my pants on one leg at a time but when my pants are on I make old records.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I enjoy that aspect of it but the ones I'm proudest the most of are the weird warfare anthologies which when you strip away that you have to be historically accurate completely or that you're allowed to throw in things more fantastical, you can really say a lot more because the handcuffs come off and I love that aspect of it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so many good writers and artists even bad ones in the past do so much with it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I really wanted to put my stamp on it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we just had an incredible open call that supported publishing two volumes worth and we're going to do the third one here in the summer.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And for me the the image in my head that I was playing with is because I'm of that era to remember you know heavy metal the movie and the magazine and all that.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man blue oyster cult you know and so when you s when I started with that it's like there was a feel and a presentation that I wanted these these books and these stories to kind of convey and then the second one you know if there's one thing anybody knows about Vietnam it's the music associated with that era.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to just get that feel in not because I wanted to be nostalgic as much as I just wanted to make my statement about these things.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to make that statement through curating the best stories that fit you know kind of together and do that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that was how I approached it.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I I approach editing an anthology like it's a mix like I'm making a mixtape.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really cool that you do both writing and editing because a lot of authors they hate the editing process it seems and then you can appreciate both sides of it and you you enjoy both sides of it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's also I feel like just from my conversation seems to be unique because again I talk to a lot of authors and I'm like what's the what's the most unenjoyable part?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're like the editing it's like the first part that comes to their first word that comes to them.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it also kind of comes back though to like you challenging yourself.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that because that question I asked actually came from a conversation at earlier this week.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about the progression uh of our reading and and kind of when I was peeling back the layers I was like yeah here's kind of where I started and it transitioned into finance and leadership.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I really didn't read a lot of fiction for a long time but now I'm getting into it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting into different style of books and I'm opening my mind a little bit more.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to read harder language that sometimes I can only read a couple pages at a time because I need to digest it differently than what I do of, you know, just like you were saying a book that's super easy and you just need something stupid for a while to turn your brain off.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: But um I like challenging myself now to find something that's a little bit more difficult and makes me have to think about it and how do I feel about this?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: What's it trying to say?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's enjoyable when you actually do get through that and you're like, all right, I need more of that because now my brain's on a on a path of just I don't know more advanced thinking in a way and you just appreciate what you're doing.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you share that because it seems like you're on that journey too of always trying to challenge yourself to do something different or better.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's just good it's a growth tool it's awesome.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is and I just don't see the point in trying to copy what everybody else and their mother's doing.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Especially in indie fiction you know there's sort of a it almost has the same valley of death that a lot of startups have that they never get out of the one foot and paid hobby and now we're real business, right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: They die there.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I was in DOD, you know, we talked about the valley of death for tech development especially for innovative tech, you know, getting something out of the RD and OT and A or the ODT and E pipeline operational test design development yeah into a program of record right of even hearing those words it's giving me flashbacks.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the thing too even with your writing it's like if we're if we're talking nonstop about how you know it's a limited pie of readers and authors out there because there's just then am I really gonna make it by doing the same things that everybody else's or do I respect what they do, do my thing.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I can say it's easy I'm a retired service member I've got I I make a certain amount of money just for fog in a mirror every morning um you know no joke.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I get a little bit more freedom perhaps but um and that's legit.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well I I just don't see the point in just trying to follow the same script when we already kind of know where it ends.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's when and that that end is you know hobbyist hobbyism is great.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this for like for real you know and and not insulting anybody who treats it as a hobby and they love that they volunteer for it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: But because it's not my identity it's what I do for meaningful leisure I I don't I don't feel like I got to play along with that script.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know I don't need to volunteer time and and effort when it's like I enjoy doing it and I enjoy being compensated for it.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: If anything I just want you to read stuff that I put out whether I wrote it or I edit it and I just hope it makes you think I mean I want you to enjoy it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I want it to stick with you though.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want you thinking about it five, six seven days a month later it bugs you still and if I do that then it's like then I've then I've done my job you know I don't care if you agree with me or not I don't care I I don't care.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if you're coming away going that rap bastard I hated that character you know what I mean or I I really loved it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like it's but you're talking about it.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like then I obviously did something right.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they are hard subjects and sometimes it's hard subjects buried in really fluffy stuff.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know it's I you know I sometimes I think I overdo it.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I got one story hopefully coming out this year with a shared world project that really let me indulge my love of heavy metal ma uh music and hard rock and roll and all that other sort of stuff and just really get into the aesthetic side of it.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I did something very artsy with it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to spoil it but but you know when I'm when this thing comes out, you know, edited by the great Jesse James Fain, this is either going to be it's either going to be a hit or it's sh it's gonna be the end.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I kind of look at it.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And right now the other big thing and I is I'm editing the boys adventure line um as the EIC for Rack and Tour Press.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's important to us to focus on boys as a as a market and as and as demographic.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean it's to give them adventure fiction that is meaningful, that helps them in their right of passage out of boyhood through adolescence and into manhood that respects them as boys that doesn't say you're a defective girl.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know and I'm sorry if anything what I'm saying here if some people feel insulted by it, but you know, as a father and you know as a middle aged man and you know with half a brain and an eye to observe what's been going on and has have opinions about it, yeah, I stand by those words.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know so but we just the first book I chose as EIC because I'm taking over from the wonderful Cedar Sanderson, who's also our art design and primary cover uh director and also primary cover artist at Rag Pretp, is a book called Boy Against the Boxers and it's set in the boxer rebellion.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Historical fiction and it's straight historical fiction, no fantasy or sci-fi in it at all.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's secret history in a lot of ways, because you have fictional characters alongside real world people that were there, kind of offering some explanation for some of the more unbelievable aspects of real life events.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: But also it's part of history that not a lot of people are familiar with today.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope we'll do more historical fiction I, you know, I mean as an example and we'll still do stories about rockets and spaceships and monsters and and Saturday morning cartoonesque uh dinosaur-shaped robots and things like that, you know, but the the heart that's behind all of this, not just the aesthetics, the heart is what matters most to us.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think has been missing from fiction that's disappointed men and boys I think for the last few decades.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: No I love that and I love I love the mission behind that and and what you all are trying to do.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it leaves me just one last question for you Chris but but before I ask it I do want to say it's gonna be super cool to follow your writing career now because knowing that you are going to challenge yourself in certain ways and in what you put out there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we've been introduced it's gonna be fascinating for me to follow as you put more work out there what that looks like in you know in four or five years look back on maybe some of the differences and talk with you again and have you kind of explain the progression of it all.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's gonna be a really fascinating thing to follow and and see.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: But one more question for you Chris and this may be hard because I see a lot of books behind you on the bookshelf and you've been reading your whole life.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I always ask this to people that come on though I'm always curious to know if there is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally and if someone like myself is just like hey Chris I need a good book recommendation what's one that you like to recommend?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah well and at the risk of sounding cliche I always tell people to read The Lord of the Rings.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I I do because I don't think a lot of people read it or read Tolkien as correctly as they think they do.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is that if you just look at him as just a straight jacketed fantasy author, you're really missing it.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're missing the point.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'll tell you why um because the other book I would say right now that this this day of the week is um backwards but The Battle of Malden together with the home coming of Birthnaf yes I think I pronounced it right.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I got that from uh Christopher Tolkien's audiobook version of this and that's how he pronounced it so that's what I'm sticking with.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is about his translation of a well it's got an essay on his translation of a ninth century Anglo-Saxon uh poem about a battle against an invading Viking uh Danish king England during the time of Viking invasions and especially as the the Danes.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about a uh Anglo-Saxon king who royally screws up.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is he's an idiot enough to meet this invading Danish king on equal turns open battlefield and he gets his ass handed to him like he should.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then the poem, Tolkien's own adaption of it, is some of this guy's men going out to retrieve his body.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is the most other than like the children of Orin, right, from the Cimmeruleian this is the grittiest thing that Tolkien has ever written.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a book that and it's a combination of both academia and poetry and fiction and I really recommend you get the audiobook version because you can hear Tolkien narrating it that demonstrates he understood war and understood valor and tragedy.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: He understood all those things in a deeply deeply deeply personal way.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because the poem itself is famous.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: In fact there's a couple lines that have popped up in pop culture because they sound really you know hoorah and and and whatnot and boastful and all but that's not what he focuses on in his version of this.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: He focuses on the X the king did XYZ which he should not have done.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's about foolhardiness and you know and vainglory and making horrendously irrecoverable mistakes you know with the lives of others and things like that.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I tell people it's like if you're not seeing into that level of Tolkien's work then you are not seeing the man.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's why that's probably this whole interview I hope I didn't waste your time but this whole interview could have been boiled down to that just that little bit right there because that's why I write that's what I write about and that's what I try to do on some small, small small small and tismally small uh degree when when I do this and not because I want to make people's lives miserable and make them think about dark and unhappy stuff because I I want them to just get beyond the surface you know get get beyond it it's like it's great to read Tolkien for elves and dwarves and and wizards and and second breakfast and all that kind of stuff.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's all you think it is then you're missing out on a whole hell of a lot and you're doing yourself a disservice.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well man we appre I I appreciate personally the the challenge to dig deeper and uh and your passion for the work and the books that you're putting out there.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so Chris man thank you so much again for taking the time to do this.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is uh again it's a challenge to me and I think people that are listening to dig a little bit deeper into to what they're reading and and what they're trying to comprehend.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so man keep keep keep it up I can't wait to follow your future work and uh see what all you do man.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm excited and uh thanks again.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hugh thank you for this opportunity and for kind of letting me just go off for a bit I I I do appreciate it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you still hope you don't lose any followers over it.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: No way man we'll appreciate it Chris