Latest / Pod Therapy / #419: Resenting a Teenage Frenemy, Pathological Demand Avoidance, Smoking cessation

Transcript

#419: Resenting a Teenage Frenemy, Pathological Demand Avoidance, Smoking cessation · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And just be like, all of a sudden, it's like, Oh,
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: he's flirting with this girl. Okay, cool, We need to
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: understand that he's kind of a player, he's winning her over.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: They're having feelings for each other. Q ten minute they
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: bone it out scene to like hard saxophone music, like
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: you just bone it out. I want the world to
• 0:17
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• 0:27
  Speaker 2: From Fabulous Las Vegas. Ananimous is pod therapy real problem
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• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, scoops. They have square poop. That's Jim, that's Whitney.
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  Speaker 1: I'm next time for some pod therapy. Well, welcome there,
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  Speaker 1: am keeping open mind. I'm gonna a piece of movie. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: new year. Join us for the new year. It's gonna
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: be a lot of fun. I feel like we should
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: do an entire live stream. Well, you can't live stream
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: a bingo game, can you, because it's you're you're in
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: a gambling thing. We need to take you to bingo.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: But I'm scared you're gonna be underwhelmed with it. It's
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: one of those things. You know what, Maybe you'll be
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: fine with it if you're the kind of kid who
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: could grow up in small town America and just get
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: enthusiastic about something because it was like whatever, we're having fun,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: cow tipping or whatever. It's like not objectively fun, but
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: like you're getting yourself psyched for it. You'll enjoy bingo.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Two or different kinds of bingo. Like some of them
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: they auto like click stuff for you. Yeah, you like?
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Well then like Circus Circus, I guess is bringing back
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: the old school like piece of paper with a with
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: a dauber.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Well, the dobber still exists. They're bringing that back to
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the strip. Oh okay, aware. So most bingo halls you
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: go to you have two options. You can they'll give
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: you a packet of bingo cards that you rip off
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: one at a time, so be like game one, game two,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: and so you play them one at a time and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you get a go dabber. There's like a vending machine,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and so it's these little paint sticks sleep by and
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: then you sit there and as they call the numbers,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: sit there and stay up here. Little thing. It's a marker. Yeah,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: so it's traditional bingo. The other option, if you're lazy,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: is you they give you like a little laptop. It's
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: basically an iPad. And so the iPad is just it
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: only does bingo and like it just sits there and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: it plays all your cards for it. I'm a big fan. Yeah,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of that. You do that, yeah,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: because I can't keep up. I'm terrible. I'm terrible at
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the dabber. The only one that.
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: I've ever gone thing one time, and it was it
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: was rock and roll bingo.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: There was like a band and music and everything that
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: so open bar and then just bingo games were playing
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: on this screen in front of me, and I guess
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: I had the opportunity to win one.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Oh true.
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: Gambling. You're just like I gave money and maybe my
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: card went.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: You're just sitting there for the hour.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I gave somebody money when I walked in, Yeah, and
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: then nobody gave me anybody on the way out, so
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: I guess I didn't win.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what my wife and I will do. Occasionally
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: we'll go play bingo. She wants to play the dobbers,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: so she'll get out the paint in the paper because
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: she likes to do that. I can't keep up because
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: it moves too fast, and like I can't for me,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: it's a bingos. She's fast paced. For Jim Joe. Yeah,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: the nine year old women in the room seem to
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: be fine. I cannot keep up, so I need the machine.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: And then I just drink her drinks and she I
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: think you're gonna like it. I think you're gonna enjoy
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: it's honestly, have you ever played bingo? Nick?
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Here?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Do you do the dobber? Do the machine? No, it's
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the automatic.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I think they gave me like they gave you, like
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: a like an iPad or something.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, that's it. I feel like for Whitney's
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: first Bingo ever, I feel like she has to do
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the doll.
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: Everyone has not gonna be fun.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: She starts with the laptop, like you got to start
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: with the dobber. I've never done this fucking dabber thing. Oh,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: do the dobber. You'll have more fun with its more active.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: You got to do the da No, you're doing the dobber.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I am going to sit there the laptop and drink
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: and cheerful. I'm actually a good teammate though, Like I'll
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: sit next to you and like i'll help eyeball that.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah if I see that, like all you miss this
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: one over here, Like I'll double check all your little
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: grids and make sure you're good.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: No one, No one is surprised that you double check
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: people's Bingo card.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I like to, like, I don't want anybody to lose.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm against the house man, I'm pro people.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I'm a plebeian. Jim does that once over? Yeah, of
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: your Bingo card. Yeah, there's a price, so I expect
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: half the winnings. Okay, I'm supporting you this now, we're
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: both in it together. You want that's right? Yeah, No,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: you win big money at Bingo. We got some great
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: questions for today's show, and leading off the order is
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: about confronting an old injustice. Dear everyone not named Jim. Wow, okay,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: all right, I feel like me. I feel targeted. I'mna
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: be honest. I grew up being best friends with a
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: guy we'll call him Bob. Bob always treated me poorly,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: and I just took it on the chin, because by
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the time I was about sixteen, I had internalized that
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that was how I deserve to be treated. We saw
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: each other the most during high school, but when we
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: both went off to college, I only saw him once
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: a year. Now, fifteen years, fifteen plus years later, he's
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: married with kids, and I see him perhaps once every
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: two or three years, and I'm okay with that. Since
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: i've since I've since come to realize that he was
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: a shitty friend. His brother and I, however, actually stayed
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: very close and have a very healthy relationship today. One day,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: when Bob and I were teens, Bob was over at
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: my house. We were in my brother's room and I
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: saw Bob's sneak two sealed boxes of Pokemon cards into
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: his bag. Children of the nineties, understand what a crime
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: this is? Fuck yeah, dude, you got to jump on
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Bob and beat his ass steal in two boxes of
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Pokemon cards. Jesus Christ, children, I just will understand this.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Even though I saw Bob steal the cards, I was
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: too scared to confront him about it, oh fuck right
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: or that stuff. So I said nothing and felt shame
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: for my silence ever since. Yeah, Jesus, that's really rough.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Fast forward to twenty twenty five, Bob was visiting his
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: family for Christmas and bragged to his brother but having
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: stolen the cards. Bob justified the theft by saying Steve's
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: brother was an asshole, so I don't care that I
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: took them. It's true that my brother and I had
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: a strained relationship and didn't get along as kids, but
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Bob took that tension and manipulated it to give himself
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: a license to steal from someone else. Hearing about this
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: brag hurt me so deeply. It's not the cards that
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: bother me. I couldn't care less about them. It's the
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: fact that someone who held themselves out as my best
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: friend stole from my family, kept me in a place
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: where I felt too scared to do anything about it,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: and is proud of having done so all these years later.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I haven't wanted to have a friendship with Bob in
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: over ten years, and I rarely talk to him anymore.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: When I do see Bob, he always wax his poetic
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: about how grateful he is to be my friend, and
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: that makes me feel white hot with rage because it's
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: all in act. After learning about the Pokemon card theft,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I feel inclined to call him and light him up.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I want to tell him how much of an asshole
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: he was to me our entire childhood, How I never
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: deserve to be treated the way he treated me, how
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: he had no right to take things that didn't belong
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: to him, and that even at thirty seven years old,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: he still sounds like an immature man child. How does
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: one process this fifteenish year delayed anger. Is it worth
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: the confrontation? Should I tell my brother that my shitty
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: friend stole his Pokemon cards. I know Bob will continue
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to be a shitty person and I can't change him.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I know he won't face consequences for his actions, and
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: he will likely do more bad things in the future.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: I just want to grapple with this deep sense of
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: injustice that I'm feeling. Love Pokemon Trainer Steve So.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Pokemon trainer Steve has written in to a mental health podcast,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: and the question that you have written in with is
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: what about Bob?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: What about Bob? What about thank you? Thank you? Pokemon
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Trainer Steve. You know quick plug are a hero quick
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Plug for the Patreon. Nick and I live watched What
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: About Bob? Remember this neck? We did this so many
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: years ago and we recorded a live track to be
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: played with What to Watch. This is visibly angry watching
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: this has been.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: A point of in my marriage. Is Peter in his
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: family that gets just hilarious.
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: They love.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Holds up. It's very goldfish his neck. Whitney, they're right.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Have you have you not seen it? You just said
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I want to watch it. I'm lost. She wants to
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: watch our want to watch I got it? Got it? Yeah, Nick,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: I liked it. I feel like our both of our
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: reviews at the time were like this is great, like
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: a good time. We were having a good time. No,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I think we enjoyed the comedic. I think it's Bill
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Murray and like Richard Dreyfus great.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: At no point did we think like, oh, yeah, this
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: is how therapy works.
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: We obviously had christical this is my worst night mare.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's how therapy were. You should actually
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: use Peter's patron and listen to it, because I think
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: that you would feel very validated. Like I want to
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: say that was our takeaway find it. So what about
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: this Bob? What about Pokemon? This Pokemon trainer Steve whose
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: nemesis Bob is a douche. I relate to this so much.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: So I man, I want to be careful how much
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I say. I don't think this guy listens to the podcast.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know. So Jim's dad dad, Okay, so my bob,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: we'll call him Mike. There it is the rubber Chicken.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: So I in high school, I became really good friends
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: with this dude Mike obviously not his real name, and
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: like he's one of these guys at the time in
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: high school. Yeah, he wasn't a good friend, but like
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I would stick to him like glue. I liked him.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I would just do whatever he wanted, and like he
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: was just constantly like this kind of guy. Like I
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: remember we were in a parking garage once and he
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: just backed into a whole fucking car and then just
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: drove away. And he's one of these kids like really rich.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah okay, just one yeah, oh okay, that day, that
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: particular day, but just like a rich kid who just
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: didn't care and just like would constantly pick on other
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: people and belittle them. But like we were cool, and
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: but he would still they could do that to me too,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: like pick on me, but like just kidding buddy. But
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: it was always like a little too much. But I
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: was like, all right, whatever, we're just being buddies. And yeah,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: he was just like a really weird like womanizer, and
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: like he was constantly like like weirdly denigrating women. Like
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: he was like this Christian Tate guy way before there
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: was a Christian Tate. Like he's just way too far,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Tim Robbins, That's what I'm thinking. But yeah, just like
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: way too far. And he's one of these guys that
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: like I lost touch with after high school. He went
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: to a different college. I went to my thing, and
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: so like we stopped in the university. But over the
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: years he would come back to town, and every time
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: he came back town, he'd always be like, oh, man,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: let's hang out. I miss you. Let's let's connect. And
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I'd always be like cringy about it, because it's like
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I don't want to see this guy, but we have
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: enough shared history that I feel wrong not visiting with him,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: you know, like, and it's kind that he wants to
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: visit with me. But then every time I would see
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: this guy, he would just say the most like repugnant
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: shit and just be like really weird, and I'd just
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: be like, God, damn, I do not want to hang
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: out with this guy. Like he's just so awkward.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Who would have ever thought he'd go on to work
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: for Ice?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah I know, yeah, yeah, he's actually doing really well
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: right now. Yeah yeah, yeah, I know. We had a
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: whole conversation without road. Yeah, very good time with that.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so like I relate to you, Steve, like
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: having a person that you're just like, man, when we
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: were kids, you were really gross, And I'm comfortable with,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Like if you have a person in your life who
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: was like that, and I'm sure all of us in
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: this room can relate to there was somebody I knew
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: as a as a kid or in high school, in
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: middle school that was kind of trash. No, I didn't
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: have any friends like that. You probably were that friend,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: and that's all your I don't talk to take them.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: That guy's crazy. But like I feel like a lot
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: of humans reform over the years, and like we have
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: to like take a look at our childhood frustrations and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: the pain we went through through a mature adult lens.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Otherwise we're going to hold people to this standard that
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: like is unfair because all of us were kind of
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: dumb and stupid as kids, and like they were dumb
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and stupid, and I don't want to hold children to
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: an adult standard with like a thirty year retroactive lens.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: But when you look at that person in your adulthood
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and there's still a pile of garbage, that's when I'm like, Okay,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: now I'm a lot more comfortable holding them to this
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: if they're still walking around talking like yeah, I stole
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: from my friend's family, ha ha ha, and like you're
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: asking us to like laugh along with you to maybe
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: validate the ear piece of shit, Like yeah, I'm a
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: big fan of like not doing that. I missed it
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: in the letter. Is what is keeping the writer attached
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: to this person?
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: What I hear is that he's still friends with the
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: brother with Bob's brother.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: So that to me was the main thing that stuck
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: out to me because I was like, at first, my
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: instinct was to say, we'll just cut him off or
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: confront him if you people.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Wants to confront him. Steve wants to double barrel this
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: dude in the shot in the chest. But like Steve says,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I talked to him every couple of months, will reconnect
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: for just a little bit. And when I see Bob,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Bob opines about what good friends we are, been friends
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: since kids, and like how valuable our friendship is. So
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Bob seems to genuinely like Steve and seems to like
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: put out this air of like, wow, we're so great,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and like Steve secretly is like, God, I kind of
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: can't fucking stand you, But like Bob is like, we're buddies.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: We've always been buddies. And Steve's kind of like, Dude,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I think you were a piece of shit when we
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: were kids. I have a ton of resentment about who
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you were, how you behaved, how you treated me, you
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: treated others, And I still kind of think you're a
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: piece of shit. But Steve's sort of wrestling with is
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: this the kind of thing that a mature adult really
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: needs to sit down and just punch his friend in
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the mouth. Do you need to air these grievances or
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: do you just let it go? Well, I mean we
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: already passed the festivus.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, good points, solid, There's a time and a place.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Just it feels like a lot of calories to burn. Yeah,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: too much effort to get to get what Yeah, I mean,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I would probably just not talk to him anymore. Yeah,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: like friends with the guy, then they'll be friends with
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: the guy. Yeah. I think that's probably what.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I although I do understand where Steve is coming from,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: because I do feel like there's a little bit of
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: that shoden Freuden's not the right word, but like this,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: like goda'd be great to just let this go, okay,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: to just unload on this guy and be like, hey,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: you know what, You're a fucking asshole. You've always been
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: a fucking asshole.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: But that's just taking.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: That's just taking out your aggression on this outlet, which
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: is admittedly probably a somewhat deserving outlet.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you're not going to get anything out
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of it. I relate, though, dude, Nick, what you just said.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Like I fantasize every time I see this old friend
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: post on Facebook and just say some new dumb ass
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: thing that just bothers me. I fantasize about like just
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: somehow getting in touch with them because like occasionally come
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: down and be like, oh, bro, come out and drink
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: with us or whatever. And like he's weird, Like he's
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: still like very immature, Like he wants to get like
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: blackout drunk and like you know, like chase strippers or
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: some dumb ass thing. Like it's just really stupid and
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: like run as long as you think that, yeah, they're
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: not that hard to get. And like there's a part
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: of me that really wants to just tell I'm like,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: what a fucking disappointment he is, you know, and just
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: like really let him have.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: It those heels.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: But I feel like I kind of I relate to
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Steve because like fantasize about doing that. I feel like,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: is that immature? Am I just being immature? Is that me?
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Like in my feelings? Is that dumb?
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: What I heard?
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Because, you know, listening through it that first time, it
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: sounds like it's about the Pokemon cards and the injustice.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: But what I hear deeper than that is really Steve
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: saying like I I want him to know how much
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: he hurt me and how much he did wrong to me.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: The thing that tipped him over the edge, as with
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: most of us, is when somebody attacks our sibling and
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: you're like, oh, hell no, I can fuck with my sibling,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: but you.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Did yeah, yeah, you was dumb. Yeah, you don't get
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to do that exactly. I feel like.
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: That's what I'm bringing it up again.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: On one hand, I definitely go with what like Nick
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: and Jacob was saying, where just leave it a because
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: at some point he will either stop reaching out or
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: he'll be like, this is weird. You still talk to
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: my brother, but like you've been ignoring me. Why is
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: that he may ask, like, hey, man, what's up? And
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: that could give you an opportunity if he's asking, And
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: if he doesn't ask, then you don't have to talk
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: to him anymore.
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: And it's like a win win on that. And I mean.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I would I hate to criticize you, Steve, and I'm
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: not really criticized you, but like, let's right, size it
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: a little bit, like saying that someone stole from my
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: family is a very dramatic way of saying this douchebag
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: took some Pokemon cards from.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Oh Jacob, let me stop you right there, Bud. You're
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: on the wrong side of this issue. I'm not. You
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: are on the wrong side in the nineties stealing Pokemon cards,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: and I don't think you do. I don't think Oh no.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Those all fun and games. Nowadays, people have like collector
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: Pokemon cards.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Again, I did, dude, in the nineties. I had a
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: criminal syndicate in my middle school in which we systematically
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: he stole people's Pokemon cards. It was a very yeah yeah, yeah,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I did this. Yeah yeah, yes, yeah. Like it's probably
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: way worse than than fucking Bob did. Brother. I'm so ashamed.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Taking these cards and sold them for you know, tens.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Of thousands of dollars.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Like if Bob took these and sold them for like
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: a quarter of a million dollars and he kept that
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: money and was still bragging, that's a different thing.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to help you get this. My
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: only guess is if I could tell you like LSU memorabilia,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: you know, I was alive in the nineties, I don't
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: you didn't care about Pokemon. You and old assnect didn't
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: get it. You guys were just enough years older than
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: us that you didn't fucking care about Pokemon. You were
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: aware of the phenomenon, but you were not standing in
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: line trying to buy the car.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: This was a thing, if this was a thing that
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: was to day worth a lot of money, Okay, fucked up, Yes,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: that's it. Or like he had stolen it and he
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: made a lot of money off of it or something
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: like that. If there was like a damage that Steve
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: was talking about, yes, then I'd be more on on
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: your team here. But because it's just a kind of
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: symbolic you stole from my family thing, I'm suggesting possibly
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: you need to right size this to some degree instead
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: of phrasing this as this man stole from me and mine. Yeah,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: it's this this douchebag when he was a kid stole
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Pokemon cards from my brother and he still brags about
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: it because he's still a fucking douchebag.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: He's just a douchebag.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: I think you can, Yeah, you can even rephrase it
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: to this is the type of guy that steals.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Or he's the type of guy that, like, he stole
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Pokemon cards when he was a kid and he still
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: brags about it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Who does that?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And I'll say it what we're all thinking. Okay, I
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: bet this guy doesn't return to shopping cards either. Yeah,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I bet he doesn't.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I bet he doesn't. So this is you coming back
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: full circle to maybe half of all living things should
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: die if they're not returning the shop. Maybe more than half. Yeah, yeah,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: saying the shopping carts the ultimate Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: If you're ready to live in a society without being police, okay,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: then you don't need anyone to ask you to return
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: to shopping. Just do what do the right thing when,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: because the right thing to do is to return the
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: shopping carts.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I like your lot.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: But Jacob pointing that out brings back up that I
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: think it's about all the other things more. It's that
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: over and over what Jim's talked about with his friend Mike,
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: Like that repetitive if every day, every week you went
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: through kind of this little belittling, like shipping away, that's
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: the real problem.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: And the fact that your friend is a douchebag. Yeah,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: and your friend is still being a bush bag. And
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: but I'm just saying, like, right, size it to that, Okay,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: that's all I'm saying with that, And I'm not saying
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying dismiss it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying don't don't take like a hat field
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: in McCoy's it's like, yeah, oh, what a douche.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Back back when I was a kid, I hung out
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: with this guy. He started out to be a douchebag.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: So just be the end of the story.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Whitney, I'm sure by now in your life there are
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: people that you've decided you're no longer going to be
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: friends with. Do you need to tell them off? Or
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: do you just silently let them go?
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: I let them go. I guess I didn't, with the
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: exception being I can't tell you I'm still.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Plotting an exception that I.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Was like, I don't think I have anyone, And all
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: of a sudden, just in my head, I was like, oh.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is Whitney's tea. Yeah, there's a Patreon level
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: where you just get to hear Whitney's gossip.
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, yeah I will.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: I'll come back to that story someday for a level.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: But no, with her, it is very much a watching
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: her now as an adult. She seems like she's thriving,
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: like honestly, which in some ways is why I shouldn't
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: be on social media.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, not good for you, right, But it's.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Like one I probably do need to sit back and say, like,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: who was that child at sixteen making these decisions and choices.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: It does make a big difference if you were a
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: child and outgrew that and learned from it, yeah, versus
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you had those behaviors then and now you're an adult
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: and you still display.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: The same right, Like that thirty nine is she the
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: same person at like nineteen was the last time we
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: had an issue. It's like that's that's a twenty year gap.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I remember I went to a kind of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: a funeral slash remembrance for a guy that I had
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: been really close to in high school. And so obviously
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: you're seeing a bunch of people that you also knew
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: in high school. And I remember one of the other
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: people at that and we were in our thirties at
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: the time, and I remember somebody at the funeral came
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: up to me and started like bringing up some beef
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: they had with me from high school. What Yeah, And
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: it was really petty. It was like, oh you blah
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: blah blah, you talked trash about me from you know,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: to this person. That person. I remember staring at this
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: person in disbelief and I let them kind of get
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: it out. And I looked at him and said, you
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: know that we were children, right, You're describing a child
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I was sixteen as a thirty something year old man.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but Jesus I mean, I have a podcast
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: where I stopped stealing. I stopped stealing Pokemon cards months ago. Okay,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: that's in the past. What are you going to get
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: over it? Yeah, at least.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Twice since you brought this subject, because I like debated
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: sharing this with this question. But since you bring this up,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: I do think there is a lot of wonderful healing
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: that can be done from an apology. Even though yeah,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: you're right, you were sixteen, You're like kind of like, oh,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm this old now, but like that that
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: was still a hurtful thing that was done even in
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: our immature.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: That reaction to it, either, I don't like the reaction.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: We're older now and we shouldn't react to this emotionally.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: I don't like that response either.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: And I think I might have told this story on
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: here ages ago.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: I've been on here so long now.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: It feels like basically the whole time.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I had I had this experience once where like
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: there was a guy I had a crush on, and
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: there was like a boundary that started to be crossed
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: in like I would say, an intimate way where I
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: was unsure about this as a child. It didn't go
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: like super far, but it was like it wasn't great.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: So fast forward, good old LinkedIn. What a fucking random LinkedIn?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Greatest pussy finder site on the internet right now, Okay.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Okay, we're gonna we're gonna put that on the back
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: on LinkedIn. This guy reaches out and like reconnects, and
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: I'm immediately transported back to like high school in the
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: exactly right. I do. Yes, I'm like, oh, hello, we're
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: like small top. Yeah, it's like surface level stuff for
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: a bit. And so I'm like, but where's this going?
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: What's the deal?
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was so much older than you. I'm
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: surprised he still alive.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: He was only two years older than me, but so
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: he yeah, doctor Husball.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: Was much older.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: But he reaches out and as we're chatting, basically, he
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: ends up sharing some stuff that had happened to him,
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: like he had lost a child, like a lot of
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: things had happened in his life that were like pretty intense.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: But he says, I've been going through this program where
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to write a lot of wrongs.
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: I might've been like an a thing. I have no idea.
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: I can't remember. This was actually a while back, but
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: he's like.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: There was this time I remember when we were hanging
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: out and this thing happened, and I remember you did
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: not seem into it. And he's like, and I always thought, like,
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: why didn't I like stop there, Why didn't I like
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: check myself better? But I'm sure it had been on
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: his mind. And what felt like crazy to me is
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: that since that moment when I was a teenager, it
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: was something that had sat with me and I kind
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: of like ruminated on for quite a while, and the
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: like basically the moment that he had had this this
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: uh like apology that he shared.
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: He said, I'm really sorry.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: That that that I didn't stop or that I didn't,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: you know, do something different, and just acknowledging that was
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: like a weight had been lifted. And I basically like
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: never thought about it again. It was like it was amazing, though,
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: and it sat with me so much that like I
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: really do try and share with others, even though it
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: feels awkward or like years have passed and I shouldn't
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: bring this up. They probably don't remember whatever it is.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: Obviously I'm talking about something a little more serious, but
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: like something even like Pokemon cards are just this slow
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: grind of like somebody hurting another person and if you're
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: on the other end of that and someone confronts you
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: and so like sorry to call you out, there's just
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: a little bit. But it's like sometimes just just an
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: apology and an acknowledgment of like, yeah, I fucked up.
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: I shouldn't have done that.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: As a person, it's like, Okay, thank you, thank you
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: for hearing me and seeing me, and like you did
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: recognize that, then I'm not crazy.
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: It's like it was just really heal.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: It makes you feel seen, like, oh, you did have
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: a reaction at the time, Like we didn't we didn't
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: talk about at the time, but you had a reaction
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: at the time. I did clock that, and and I
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: feel weird that I didn't react differently about it. That's
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: that's a that's a reasonable conversation. Would that feel Would
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: it feel as good if you had challenged him on
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: that and then as a result of you challenging him,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: he had offered an apology.
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Like if I were the one reaching out.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because LinkedIn guy proactively came to you. Yeah, and
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that's great.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: I love that, Like it obviously made you feel a
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: lot better. I bet it made him fee a lot better. Yes,
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Like I am a huge fan of that. I'm a
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: huge fan of like, yes, go out and like, yeah, right,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: the wrongs that you committed in your past, not for them,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: it'll make you feel better.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: But if you're Pokemon trainer Steve, how do you feel
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: about the advice?
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: Do we do?
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: We coach Steve and say, you know what, Buddy, go
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: ahead and let Bob know that, Hey, man, I have
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of animosity and a lot of resentment about
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: when we were kids. I'm not wrong sizing that. You know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I get it, we were kids. I forgive you, but
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like you need to know I'm not impressed
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: with a lot of the things you think were cool.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: They really bothered me.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's where part of me does feel like there
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: can be healing in that. And that's why I brought
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: up the.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Gym's life can be summed up as Shania I think so.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I think I consider myself the Shania Twain of this podcast.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I also consider you that, thanks, Buddy. That means a lot.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: You see me is.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Kind of like it's like a brick that you just
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: kind of carry around.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Metaphor, she is a bricking.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I'm drown and like in Whitney's example, this person comes
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: up and apologizes, and then you know, Whitney's in the
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: situation like, oh, I guess I don't have to carry
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: this anymore and you can set it down. Another scenario,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: it would be like Whitney confronting this person saying, hey,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: this really bothers me, and assuming that conversation goes, well,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: hey guess I can set this down. I don't have
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: to carry this anymore. And then there's a third option
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: in which neither of those happen, right, And then I
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: think that's the most challenging because then it's up to
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: that person to learn to set it down with no
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: actual resolution.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: So that's where in my mind with this writer, I
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: think the best option is to not address it and
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: just I wouldn't try to be friends with him though.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: Either when he's reaching out saying hey, let's go get
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: a drink or whatever, we're just say no thanks. I
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: would try and bess that I'm busy. I would cut
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: that and just leave it at that. And if they
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: come to you, that's where it's they say, hey, we
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: haven't hung out. It seems like you're avoiding me. You
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: hang out with my brother, but not me. That's really well, yeah,
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: you know, I've tried to get some space because there's
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: some things that I really didn't like you've been doing.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: If you want to talk about that more, let me know. Again,
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: allowed them to be the one to come to you.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I just think it starts with that because
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: I don't I don't I think on your own dealing
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: with those issues, like going to therapy and talking through
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: what was hurtful for you as a child, I think
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: that's the real issue here. And yes, it's because of
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: that person. And yes, if everyone could get an apology
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: from their abusers or people who've hurt them like that
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: would be a wonderful world to live in. But since
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: we cannot most of the time, I feel very lucky
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: that I got my apology. That was amazing, But like
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: I don't think that is normal or usual at all.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: And so it's like, I think learning to manage that
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: part is going to be the most important thing.
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: So whether that's through therapy.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: I hadn't gone to therapy before then, so like maybe
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: that could have been something helpful to me.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: So I like that when I hear people say like
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: just move on, and then they say like you know,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: in that same tone of voice that they say, like
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: just get over it or whatever, Like moving on from
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: something is kind of a superpower. Yeah right, Yeah, And
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: like I actively work at trying to just move on
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: from things, and I'm not great at it, but like
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: I actively work at it. And like the idea of
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: just being able to move on. And I bet this
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: is kind of where you're coming from, writer, is like
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: the idea of just having an action that you can
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: take and then being emotionally done with this, right, I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: bet it is appealing. Yeah, I just don't think it's
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: going to work out that way. I think it's just
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: going to cause more problems and prolong the issues that
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: are already happening and everything else that's going on inside
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: of you. Uh, like you you're you're not gonna get
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: an outcome that you're happy with.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true.
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: The old letter writing, the.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Old letter writing, I mean, when you really said something,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: I think quite well it was there it is. Yeah,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: well I'm empty, but I would I'm with you spiritually,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: but no, like the idea that we are not going
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: to likely get to confront our user and so the
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: real work for for catharsis and for healing is probably
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: going to be more internal. It's probably going to be
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: you with your own mind, or you doing something therapeutic
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: with your own therapist. Most of us are not going
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: to get anything out of it. And the idea that
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: this person's going to hear the feedback and either have
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: an epiphany or know how to be mature and emotionally
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: handle that that's very hard to do. I mean, I'm
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: a therapist and somebody confronted me at a funeral and
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: like I was kind of like, hey, maybe go fuck yourself.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm mourning here my friend died and I
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: don't give a shit what you think, and like, yeah,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: it was a bad moment. So like, you know, I
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: think that we can't expect people to be very good
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: at this, and so the work has to be done
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: for ourselves to liberate ourselves, you know, from our own burdens.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: And and gets some really good advice, so I think
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: we're all on the same page. Basically, sneak up, punch
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: this guy in the back of the head.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: If it's like a Pokemon card in that collection that's
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: worth like fifty k or something like that, don't find
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: out because my advice changes completely.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the advice? Oh, break into his house, beat
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the ship up, and pick the cards. I love that.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I love that idea. Stick around for the end of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the show, and I will tell you about my middle
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: school Pokemon scheme in which I basically oceaned eleven hire again. Again,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: he's proud of it. I can't. It's bad.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: It's a hook, it's a sick. We've been doing this
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: very fucking years. Whatever Jimothy is going to talk about,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to give a shit. I just know
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: what the people do, the Pokemon lovers do. We're going
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: to take a quick break, and when we come back,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: we are talking about pathological demand avoidance versus oppositional defiant
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: disorder in a child. You're listening to pod therapy.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Jui Caroline Alberta
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Saras like him, the guy Brady Max Scoo and would
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: you like to sponsor the show become a therapy paton
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: dot com sash therapy. Al Right, here we go, Uh,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: second time around for this one. Prices right rules, Cameo edition. Okay, okay,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: so we've done this once before. Cameo of course, the
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: website where you pay somebody to.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Band. Oh.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: I was really scared that we were going to ask
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: trivia questions about the band cameo.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: This is the website do well where you can pay
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: like B list seless celebrities to say something. I don't
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: think we have to rank them, it's just anybody. Yeah,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, first one on here is Jesus Christ
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: closest without going over let's start. This is for what
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: a thirty second cameo? Do we have any kind of
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: standard on this an appearance? We're just okay, episode all right,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: who's starting to us? Is you all right for Jesus
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: because that's say this.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Is uh, he is listed under the influencer good, of.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Course he is. He's in put Jesus Christ. Thank you
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: like it? Yeah, Jesus Christ. Because I feel it's going
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: to be a competitive marketplace. I'm gonna say you can
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: get JC up there a j C twenty bucks I
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: think twenty bucks. Ge you get a comment from JC. Okay, Okay, Whitney.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: My instinct was thirty, so I'm just saying thirty.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: My instinct was forty five. I'll just come down to forty.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: All right, Let's see forty five. Hell, no money, no money,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: so much it costs to talk to you.
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: Jesus, you know what, Look at that here.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: With me.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Jesus is just right with Okay, when you're going to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: go first on this one, we are going to pick
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: a musician, well kind.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Of Jesus Christ.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Are you familiar with the Island Boys?
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, okay, Island Boys. Oh my goodness, I feel
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: like this is actually be pretty press Oh wait, how
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: much is the cameo from the Island Boys? You're want
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: to ask a question about the Island I know. I
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: was like, I'll bet you it's up there. They're they're
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: pretty big deals.
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: We'll close without going over ship. I don't know if
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: it's like I'm going to say one hundred dollars, I'm going.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: To say four hundred dollars. Yeah, I'm with you. I'll
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: take oh boy, I'll go I'll go in the middle.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I'll take two fifty. Good. I wanted you go in
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the middle because I think I'm low. Yeah, I think
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: I was going to go high, but I thought, let
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: me just I'll take you. I wanted you just say
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: right there in the middle. Wanted the high end. I
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: got started it higher than four, but I'll bet you
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: that it's But I'll bet the marketplace has put it
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: in about two. Let's see, I was low balling Jesus,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: So what do I know?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Thirty six dollars?
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm cameo right now, we're all getting for val
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: What is this happening? Immediately? Andading all right?
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: That is not real?
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Last one for this round?
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: I say your name for that. They're just like Jacob
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: that's thirty.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Professional golfer John Daily. Oh that's a good one.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm gonna say I must say too fitty okay, Oh,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I want to say two hundred fitty dollars.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, he is a living icon like and he
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: ain't doing it. He don't care, he don't give a fuck.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I'll bet you it's a thousand dollars to get a
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: John Daily. I don't hate it. I don't hate it.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: What did you say to about Yeah? We left a
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: lot of room in the middle there.
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: I know. But I was already thinking, like.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Or was two fifty too high? You want to go?
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: I was going to go, well, I should do one actually,
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: because I was going to say two, I'll say one dollar.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, it is one thousand dollars buzz right on right.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: I think that's a point. I think got two points
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: for that, thank you. You know what, I'll take that.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: The rules one, it's a shame, big shame. Well it didn't,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: but didn't Jacob Land the first one perponse he was
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: he said, I'm gonna say forty five, but I'll go
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my hedge to get down and get myself more
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: room enough. Yeah, John Daly, I didn't a.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: K for John Daly, honestly, still not enough. I feel
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: like he's under selling on that one. But I've downloaded
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the cameo app.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna say, John Daily could be uh making some money, yeah,
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: but I believe John Daily doesn't want to do the
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: extra cambyop.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it is. That's exactly what it is. Yeah,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: it's supply and demand, and his supplies vary. It is
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: if you really want this, I guess I'll do it
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: for a grand. For a grand I guess I'll figure
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: out how to hit this button. So I have download
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: the app, but I have not logged into it. For
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the sake of fairness, this is just the script on
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: my phone. I just want to make sure everybody knows,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: and you know, obviously porn but not uh not cameo,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna not gonna yeah a lot of
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: John daily porn. Honestly, That's how I knew he was
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: low balling, because I know what that man is capable of.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: THATTHO logical demand avoidance versus oppositional defiant disorder in a
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: thirteen year old Hi, guys and whitney. I recently came
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: across something called PDA, which apparently is not public display
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: of affection in therapist circles, but pathological demand avoidance. The
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: symptoms of PDA sound very much like my thirteen year
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: old child's behavior. Let's call my child Pat. Pat is
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: biologically female, but has come out recently as non binary.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Since they were very little, they have responded to mine
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: and my husband's instructions with negotiation, forgetting and humor or charm.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Responses rarely are angry, so it never really matched with
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: OCD as we suggested, as was suggested by the doctor,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: oh odd, thank you, as was suggested by the doctor,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: and our attempts to use incentives or consequences to encourage
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: compliance rarely work well. Pat either does as little as
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: possible and then rule lawyers their way to the reward,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: or they forget, or they seem unbothered by not getting
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: the reward, or they aren't deterred by the consequence and
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: keep doing the behavior anyway. They were diagnosed with mild ADHD,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: and I know that ADHD can present differently in girls.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I've always chalked this up to the ADHD, And for
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the record, Pat rarely exhibits these non compliance behaviors at school,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: which is also not really oppositional defiant disorder typical. My
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: most successful efforts at changing behavior has been presenting the
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: problem to Pat and neutrally supporting their attempts at a solution.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: This worked with getting them to wake up on time
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: for school on their own, but this is a super
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: time consuming and b requires Pat to see the issue
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: as a problem in the first place, for example, an
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: exceptionally gross bedroom because the mess and filth is not
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: a problem to them. Recently, Patt has struggled with suicidal
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: thoughts that their therapist says seem to stem from a
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: huge amount of anxiety about all sorts of things that
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't know was there. According to the Internet, PDA
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: is anxiety related can co occur with ADHD and other
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: neurodiverse conditions, and effective responses to oppositional defiant disorder won't
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: work because the root cause is so different. My questions
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: are is this a real thing? If it is, are
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: there recommendations based on actual data on how to respond
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: more effectively to Pat's non compliance. Something has got to
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: change because the giant mountains of half empty soda cans,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: used sanitary products and dirty clothes that I think is
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: causing the stink is just not an acceptable way to live.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: And I am so deeply frustrated, angry, and guilt ridden
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: after thirteen years of fruitless battle with this child. Thank
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: you for your advice over the years. I love the show,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: I love you guys, and I love the pod therapy community.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Signed scoop K. So this this is a nuanced question,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: and pathological defiance is different or not pathological defiance, but
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: forgive me, I have to go there. It is, Yeah,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: is different than oppositional defiant disorder. All three of us
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: have worked for programs where we got face to face
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: with ODD. Oh yeah, and I feel like it's a
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: good place to start to start from the position of
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: things we're pretty comfortable with we're really familiar with, and
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: then we can kind of start to step into a
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: little bit of what the writers describing here, and I
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: can appreciate. I think we can all appreciate why that
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: does look a little bit different than what we've seen
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: with ODD And you know, I don't know that we're
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: going to say thumbs up or thumbs down to a
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: diagnosis of PDA. We can comment on it if anybody
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: has heard about it. I've heard about a little bit,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: really more in European places than that America. I've seen
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit of reports on it. But yeah, maybe
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: we start from a position of what is oppositional to
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: find disorder and maybe some of our professional experiences with that,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: because I know we've all been in at least that area,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and that's that's largely referenced.
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: Here before we do that. My immature brain only because
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: the person said, let's call them Pat, and I don't
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: think Pat's surial name, but I just thought of this.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: It's definitely a reference to the Yeah, yes, that was
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: why Jacob chuckled. It was solidly very well.
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: I loved it.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite bits with the it's Pat thing.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: For those who don't know Pat is who is played
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: by Pat. It was Martin Short, right, No, No, I
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: think it was Martin Short. Definitely was not Martin Short.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: It was I'll bet you your doc. It wasn't Martin Short.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Put Oh boy, I mean if it's not Martin sure,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Martin Short played God, what what role was Martin Short playing?
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: That makes me think of that.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: I always like, I'm trying, but I've got a bet
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: out on the table for you. Jim, you're gonna pick
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: that bet up, but you're gonna put it down.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not taking it. You seem too confident, you're intimidating.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: So somebody look it up. It was Martin Short, fuck me?
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Was it really? Yeah? No, you didn't look at all?
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Was it Julius Sweeney? Yes? Okay. There's a great bit
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: where Pat is at a restaurant or no, Pat's at
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: a bar and orders like a cocktail, and the bartender's
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out what gender Pat is, and they're like, oh,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: it's a it's ladies' night, so it's it's half off
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: drinks for ladies. And Pat puts a twenty dollars bill
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: on table and he goes, oh thanks, and the bartender
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: takes it goes, oh, how much change do you want back?
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: And Pat goes keep the change. It's great, just an
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: sn L sketch.
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: It was.
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: It was a person who was of an ambiguous gender.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: That was it doesn't hold up well now it is.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Very but it was definitely I think it actually wasn't
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: as offensive as you might feel.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: My feeling on it was that it was meant to
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: be innocent fun Yeah.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know that for sure, but it was not
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: indicting or critical of the character. It was creating an
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: atmosphere where people around the character are just not sure
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: didn't so they was trying to ask, but the character
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: is absolutely like, does not catch on that nobody knows this,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: and so it's just answer that that awkwardness was funnier
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: than it probably would be. Sure.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, Yeah, working in foster.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Either way, well done on the reference. We saw what
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: you did. Good job.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, working in foster here with like high high needs
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: kids who have diagnoses like this.
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: From what you've described, Scoop k Uh, I would somewhat
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: agree with you.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: Again, not diagnosing or undiagnosing anyone, but does not sound
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: like a typical odd, you know behaviors. But but I
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: know this is like through your lens and and what
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: you're looking I'd be very curious to hear what your
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: provider was looking at when when they gave that diagnosis.
• 49:33
  Speaker 5: Right, but odd, man.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: It I mean with the kids I worked with, it
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: was very purposeful, purposeful defiance, like no, I'm not going
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: to clean my room. There's yeah, it's not finagling and lawyering,
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: none of that nicety about it.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: There is a little bit of indifference where it's sort
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: of like, I don't give a goddamn about your reward system.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I don't care about the consequences. I almost feel like
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: there is I almost feel like ODD was invented in
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: some ways so that we didn't call children's psychopaths. Yeah,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: like that's how close ODD feels to.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Conduct disorder conduct.
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: I was like, wait, what's the one that's like precursor
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: to chotropy? Ye? But yeah, they can be like closely
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: tied together and have similar symptomologies.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: It's really a hard population to work with. I mean, Nick,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: you've you've worked on the front lines with that population
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and foster care as well. I did.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of a lot of uh, frustration and
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: attempts to control environments that they couldn't control. Right, it
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: was it was a disobeying of authority in a way
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: to gain control over the environment.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Right yes, yeah, and in a very quick disregard to
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: and and like some of what scoop CA is writing about,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: I can see why it's adjacent to oppositional defined disorder
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: because here you are, you're trying to create structures, you're
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: trying to create agreements, and you just don't have the
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: consent of the governed. And that's what odd and concre
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: disorder really lack is, Like it's so hard to find
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: a way to find some leverage, to find something the
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: kid cares about, a reward, a privilege, fear of a
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: consequence that results in them entering into the social agreement
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: to do what is expected of them. And it's interesting
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: that scoop Ca says, look, with school stuff, we made
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: some big progress, like in their classrooms. Oftentimes odd kids
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: or conduct disorder kids will see them be doing terrible
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: at school, not because they are not academically qualified, but
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: because of the behavior management issue. The teacher can't get
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: them to buy in. And for whatever reason, when the
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: kid loses interest or it has decided your an enemy
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: and doesn't care. They'll sabotage the room, they'll be up
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: walking around, They're just a complete menace. And here we
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: have a situation where the pat was able to successfully
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: get involved in academics, has made a lot of like
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: roads upward in that way where pathological demand avoidance as
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: a theory. And again this is not a proper diagnosis.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: It's familiar with that.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really just a new way to phrase, kind
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: of a cluster of observances and so demand avoidance. From
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: what I've been able to read, and again no expert
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: on this, very just like like very adjacent reading on
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: the topic, but from what I've been able to gather,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: the implication seems to be that there are oftentimes younger
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: people that the theory is that maybe their executive functioning
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: has not fully developed, which with ADHD that is exactly
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: what we would suspect is part of this, and in
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: that inhibited executive functioning portion of the brain, when you
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: give them a demand, an imperative, when you make imperative
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: statements do or do not do yes or no, fail
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: or win, and there's there's a sense of pressure to
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: that that the rest of us here most of us
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: as children. When an adult or an authority figure were
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: to stare you down and kind of call you out,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: most children would become submissive to the authority, and we
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: would be like, yes, ma'am, yes sir, we will want
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: to make it right. Oppositional defiant disorder kids seem to
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: have this need to sort of resist the authority, whereas
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: pathological demand avoidant people seem to be entering into an
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: anxiety reaction. There's this sense of like fight or flight, yeah,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: and they're they're overwhelmed and they they're shutting down, but
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: not in this conduct disorder odd way where they're rationally
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: choosing not to go with you. They seem to their
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: cup is so small that it's like very quickly overflowing.
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: I will see this with parents where they're like, what
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: are they even anxious about or tired about? You haven't
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: done anything all day, Like I run tend different jobs,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: and you're over here, I'm asking.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: You to literally clean up your ship and put it away,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: and you're acting like I'm asking you to fucking rebuild
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: the Eiffel Tower, And and there is this sense of
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: like because you're approaching them with this direct sort of
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: communication style. They don't seem to handle it very well.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: And some of the reading that I've done it, I've
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: seen it compared to like putting a flashlight on trying
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: to show somebody something but pointing it into their eyes
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: and that they can't see anything. You're blinding them with
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: this truth. And then it's frustrating to you because you're
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: illuminating all the problems, but they're blinded by that there's
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: too much light scattering into their eye. And so where
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: I and they're blinded by the light, there it is, Yeah, Yeah,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: that's there.
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: It is, Jacob, Like, I'm done.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, my only note on this writer. And again,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: like I would defer to child experts and you know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: if you're not already collaborating in therapy, I think that
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: that continues to be a really good suggestion. In this case,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: everybody drink. But like in this case, from what I've seen,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: children that do have And again, PDA is not an
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: actual diagnosis. It's like a way of description, sort of
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: like highly sensitive people as a description where I've seen
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: some good suggestions. It actually takes the shape of something
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: we use a lot in addictions treatment, which is motivational interviewing.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: So like with addictions treatment, we don't often go head
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to head with a person and confront them and challenge
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: them because we'll find that they won't be very successful,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: right the ego gets in the way or they're subsumed
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: by denial. So we found that we have to do
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: this like yes and approach where we're like agreeing with them,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: and we're slowly putting small victories in front of them
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: and building their internal interest in solving the problem with us,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: but also being very patient and meeting them where they're at.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: And from what I've seen, those who suffer with pathological
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: demand avoidance, their their parents and supporters and allies seem
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: to have more success when they stand adjacent to the
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: person instead of across from the person. I mean this
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: literally and metaphorically and and together, shoulder to shoulder, we
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: look at the disgusting mess in the room and we say,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: oh no, this stuff is really piled up, this is icky,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: this is not good for you. What can we do?
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: And and now we're not demanding anything, we're not insisting.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: There's not an imperative statement being made. Instead, there's this
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: this curiosity, what do you think we should do together
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: to make this better? We can make it. That's there, teenager,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: nothing nothing, what's fun?
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: I The one thing I was gonna say, Jim kind
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: of is some smilar to that, and that is with teenagers.
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: I saw this recently and it really resonated with me,
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: where teens we really want to seek connection over control,
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: especially ones that are in situations like this where they
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: are kind of arguing back and forth with you, because
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: I could even see you stand with him. I've seen
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: this with parents and kids. They're like, I've tried that.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: I'm like, what can we do? Do you want me
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: to help?
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: Nothing?
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: You know, teens are like despondent there if there's been
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: suicidal thoughts, because that was mentioned, right, I'm not making
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: that up right, They're entering into like depressive state where
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: where you may ask them those questions and yeah, it
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: just looks fine to me. I don't want to do
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: a damn thing. I'm tired, I'm I want to I'm
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: having suicidal thoughts, So I think trying to make a
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: connection with him. And I see this with a lot
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: of parents, and if you have been dealing with this
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: for thirteen years, I hear you, I hear you, scoop Kay,
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: Like this is it's a lot. You're exhausted, and even
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: what Jim described is still a lot of fucking work.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: It takes so much work to be a parent. It
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: takes so much fucking work. Like I applaud all of
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: you out there, there's a reason I'm not.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: With thank you. I'm just glad to finally be.
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: Recognized on the unfortunately and celebrate.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: We don't know for sure the gym has kids. Okay,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: you're not wrong. Technically I've never seen them. Yeah checking,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Oh no, there are children, but whether I have spawned
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: them is a good.
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: Oh okay, well that's that's a good point.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: But no, just trying to seek that connection before asking
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: them it is where.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: The gym took it there though. Yeah.
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: Interesting, we'll expand on that later. Yeah.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: So that's kind of my my one little little blurb
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: and put is one just to like, I hear you're exhausted.
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: And it kind of feels like some parents view uh
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: parenthood as like I am raising this person to go
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: out in the world and I and I envision those
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: parents out there that like I didn't raise my kid
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: to do X, Y and Z, I didn't raise my
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: kid to be a b and see and that always
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: like sits with me kind of weird because I'm like, yeah,
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: as kids, we are we're listening to our parent, but
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: like we're our own human, right and we're going to
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: become our own human And so yeah, you can tell
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: your kid every single day like we're this type of family,
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: but like they're going to go do their own thing
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: when they're ready. So uh, don't take that so personally
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: and don't feel like I need to have so much control,
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: especially at thirteen. So yeah, I think just trying to
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: sit with them in it and connect with them on
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: anything else besides the room. Maybe that's not the focus,
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: like you said, like we're going to connect on something else,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: and maybe that pressure that's been put on, like you
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: need to clean your room with a second you bring
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: it up, their walls are.
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: Going to go up.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's connect over something else and then enter
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: into that motivational interview territory where it's like, wow, how
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: are you feeling in this room?
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: Like yeah, is this serving you?
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Like being curious about it? Writer, I would really encourage
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: you to look up motivational interviewing and just kind of
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: like trying to take a little bit of the skill
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: set for on that. But like, I appreciate what you said, Whitney,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: because like, as a parent, one of the things that
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: I've learned, and I think a lot of parents will
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: say this is like picking your battles, because sometimes, like
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: there's a very interesting dance between my obligation as a
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: parent to bring a certain amount of pressure to my
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: child and yes, give them the dignity of discomfort. To
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: some extent, a lot of parents are afraid to make
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: their kid uncomfortable, to pressure them, to chastise them, to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: be negative around them, and to some extent, I think
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: that there's a balance to that, because I don't want
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: us to be these people that are like immature ourselves
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: and making it about us and like making our kids
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: responsible for our own emotions or wrong sizing our reactions.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: But I do think that we have to represent the
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: natural consequences of some of their choices. And that means, hey,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: I live in this space with you, this is unacceptable,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: these are my standards. These standards will be met. It's like, well,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: I don't want to meet these standards. Then we are
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: going to start working on boundaries in slow natural consequences
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: to kind of complement this. But it's tough because this
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: is where the second piece, if it comes in. It
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: takes a lot of patience as a parent and choosing
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: your battles, because you can very quickly escalate to like
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: nuclear war, believing that like, okay, well you disrespected level A,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: so now we're escalating level B. You didn't care about
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: level B. We're going to level C. And this is
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: where when you're dealing with PDA or oppositional defiant disorder,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: you're losing. Yeah, you can there's no leverage. You're gonna
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: find like, there's no high enough standard. You're gonna have
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: to like, you're not gonna kill the kid, right, You're
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: not going to murder the child. Yeah, at the end
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: of it, you're not going to do that. So you
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: can't win that. I put you in foster care, I
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: call the cops, they come and get you, and like
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: you realize, Okay, if we're getting that far, I've clearly
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: lost this. So there is a delicate dance between yes,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I need to embody natural consequences, I need to allow
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: this to happen, but also, as you said, Whitney, and
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: I think to extend your point, there's also a consideration
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: of allowing time to be my ally. Like, there have
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: been challenges I've had with my children where I've I've
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: had certain fights and I've realized I don't think this
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: child's developed in a yet Like, let's kind of check yourself.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take as much of a win as
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: I think I can get right here, and I'm going
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: to keep working this and I'm going to see if
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: time is my ally. And I know from my perspective, writer,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: I've personally, I don't know if it's universal. I've been
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: pleasantly surprised to discover there have been situations that I
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: was concerned about, and then as time went on and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: my child's brain developed, I would reintroduce that challenge again
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: and I would find them to be much more receptive
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: later on, and maybe we needed to wait another six months,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: maybe to wait a year, And so there is this
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: erosion process where their brain is still under development, and
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: especially if you're diagnosed with ADHD, there's also this thing
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: of like, okay, are we're using all the you know, uh,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: psycho pharmacolo pharmacological tools that might be helpful of this?
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Are we allowing executive function to flourish right now?
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 6: So?
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Writer, these are all suggestions. I'm really glad for your
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: letter because I appreciate that you're helping us illuminate an
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: area that often gets too like easily lumped in with
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: things like autism or odd ADHD or ODD or CD.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: With children, development is hard and it's not one size
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: fits all. It's a labyrinth of personal factors, personal environments,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: personal challenges that make it really really difficult to predict,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: to diagnose, to label. And so we try our best
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: to give some advice, some information, some words that might
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: resonate with you, like a diagnoses or certain symptom sets.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you've got to
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: know your child and you've got to do what's right
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: for them on a one day at a time level.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: You talk about being exhausted, you talk about feeling defeated
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: seeing the unsanitary living conditions as child's living in. I
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: wish there was a magic wand solution for this writer.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: At a minimum, I'm just glad that we can chew
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: on it with you and sort of see you and
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: resonate with that and just encourage you and just at
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: a minimum tell you, like I think that it's really
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: noble that you're looking at this from all these alternative
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: explanation kind of perspectives, and you're just trying to meet
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: your kid where they are at. So to offer you
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: just a last word of advice, please into motivational interviewing.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of really specific ways of talking and
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: perspectives that allow you to be non confrontational, non imperative,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: collaborative and patient. And also we introduce a lot of
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: ideas in MI. Will not introduce, but co opt a
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: lot of ideas in MI. I like stages of change,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: which may be a very useful model for how you're
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: approaching some of your child's challenges today. Is seeing where
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: is there stage of change on this particular issue. On
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: other issues, they've gotten all the way to action. On
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: this issue, they're in pre contemplation. My goal is not
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: to get them to action. My goal is to get
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: them just to contemplation. How do I help them see
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: that there is a mess, not to clean it, not
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: to know how to clean it, just to agree there
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: is a mess, this is probably not safe. How do
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: we start there? And I think if you can start
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: with those smaller milestones and steal some of those strategies,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: you might get some like atomic level success and then
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: we can maybe parlay that into something else. Yeah, all right,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: we are going to take a quick break and we
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: come back. We're talking about process addictions with smoking. You're
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: listening to pod therapy.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Schneider, Carolyn al
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Sammy Scoop seras Tody, then Delare, Knive, Bradie Malacha back
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: at the Ginger Scoop eli Odare and if you'd like
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: to plast the show become a therapy, sure, Slash.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: So I think what we left to ard winning by
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: like one hundred and I'm dominating right now? Can we
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: sign up for cameo? Can? Can? Can pod therapy be
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: on Cameo?
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Can we be?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: We could? But sure, I mean somebody will do it. No,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I'll bet they don't. There is a low enough number
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: we could set that people I could do.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: All right, Jim, what is that cameo number?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: I know?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: What is our cameo number?
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Mark McGrath, Oh, the guy from Sugar Ray, Oh shit,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Oh geez, Now that I have the John Daily standard,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: that's really what I'm measuring everything else by Mark McGrath.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: I'll bet he does it for three hundred dollars. I'll
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: bet Mark McGrath does that for three hundred because I
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: think this might be the only gig Mark McGrath has. Now, Okay,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: I'm putting a three hunder.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna go.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: She's going under. Okay, hmmm, I'm a one dollar. You
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: think it's low, you think it's low. I think I
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: was too low with three. It's which still would have liked.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Get Mark McGrath for ninety bucks. Yeah, oh geez, wow, Okay, Mark,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I think you're selling yourself short.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Buddy Whitney, Bam, Marge Era.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: Who's Bam Bamm?
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Supposedly he's just being the new Jackass movie. Oh okay.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Also they're doing a new Jackass movie. There you go.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: Bam boy, that's the whole cultural That's like he was
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: hot ship for a minute. Dude was the biggest deal ever.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: Bam three hundred?
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, Okay, Mark McGrath is ninety bucks? Is Bam
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: Marjerra three hundred? Where are you going with this? Icon
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I mean Bam is a bit. I think Bam is
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: bigger than Mark.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 5: McGrath, very iconic.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: He's yeah, he's more recognizable. But that's a good Oh.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: He cuts it in half. I'm gonna go seventy bucks.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going low because I think that dude cratered pretty hard.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: And there's one very small niche of people that really
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: can definitely just want another point. They tell me one
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: other point one. So that's me, baby, it's it's price.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: That's right. Rules. Give that one back to Jim Honda.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: All right, Jim okay comes to Jacob.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: All right, Corey Feldman.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, no, you know, is he Boy meets World.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: From the Corey's Yeah, the guy from Boy Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 5: From stand By Me.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a stand by Okay, I told you
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: everyone he was. He was the one with the classes.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Corey Feldman. I'm gonna say forty five dollars.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: Oh it's more than that, forty five dollars.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Forty five dollars. Yeah, I'm blind, brother, I have no
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: idea who this guy is. No, unless he's the Boy
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: meets World guy. But the boy, he's the Boy meets
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: the World guy. Okay. I thought that dude's last name
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: was Savage. It is Savage Feldman, Corey, Corey Savage Heldman.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Oh all right, Well, that dude's actually pretty cool and
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: he's like got a really famous older brother. Yeah, mustang,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: Wait what did what did you guys? What? I don't know,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I think he's forty forty dollars. I
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: don't think anybody's even bothering with this app if they're
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: not getting enough money to make it worth it. Let
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: this guy be one thirty. I'm going one thirty. Okay, Okay.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 5: He had like a whole little weird revival. He's so odd.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: Now. That's why I feel like it might be more
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: than I think, because he did like a documentary and
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: was like.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: Abusing girl, really abusing band. He hass not.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: The fucking guy from Boy Meets World is hit? Do
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: you go ahead?
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: But like, I feel like he's the type he's going
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: to set it high even if no one's buying it,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like just be himself.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: God without going over though, So.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Then make give him a point one?
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 5: What did you guys? I said one fifty? What did
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: he say? One fifty?
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: He said forty? I said, I'm in the one hundred,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: had like one thirty.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: I guess one hundred.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: Give him my point four hundred and twenty two dollars.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Settle the fuck down.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: I get.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 5: His ego, that's my psychoation.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: I'm surprised it's only for twenty two.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I know I want to go.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: You don't even higher.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I want not even know? Who really
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: excited about this process? Addiction with smoking, Jam Jacob Whitney, Tanjman,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: their name.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: Is my name to Jim Jacob, nice name is my
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: name too.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 5: You're welcome writer, Thank you.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Hi there, Gang. I've tried willing myself to write in
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: a few times, but I'm a bit slow when it
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: comes to collecting my thoughts, so I'm sorry if this
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: is a bit scattered as a result. Annie, Who's for context.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: A few years ago, I had an addiction to nicotine
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: when I was working retail, and the excuse I gave
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: myself was that it was because of the daily stress.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: I got clean when I moved back because of the
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: restrictions that my state put on vapes. Now fast forward
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: to today, I'm constantly stressed from the mistakes. I make
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: it my job dealing with multi million dollar loans. On
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: my lunch, I'll drive down to the local seven to eleven,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: smoke for the lunch break, and head back to work. Initially,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: it was an occasional activity, but now it's become a
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: daily occurrence whenever I work. Can you guys give me
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: some strategies to help fight this process? Slash, What are
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: some effective techniques typically used to help combat addiction? I
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: want to enjoy my life with my lovely partner while
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: I still have it love Jim, Jacob Whitney, tanj Menonymous,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Well this.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 5: Is all the perman.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: Have any of us Okay, first off, have any of
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: us ever actually been a smoker? Have any of you
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: ever been a smoker in your I.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: Have one experience trying to sneak cigarettes when I was
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: in elementary school. E elementary school, like fifth grade or
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 4: fourth starts with cigarettes.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: It's cars. Yeah, yeah, cigarettes, you know what dude, You're right, Yeah,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: was right. It was really on the ball.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: No, but we were like took a whole pack of
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: cigarettes where like my friend's parents won't notice that obviously
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: they did, and we like snuck to this like house
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: they were they were building new houses. We like snug
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: to the little like whatever construction area. And I remember
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: I tried to smoke it, but I don't think I
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: inhaled because I did not cough. I was like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: I'm so cool, no, my mom. They were like, hied
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: it at your house, Whitney, because my mom's a nice one.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: My my mom found those cigarettes and both her parents
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: were smokers, like inside the house whatever.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 5: My mom does not smoke.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: She found them and tore them up in my face
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: and says, don't you ever smoke? And like I have
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: never seen her mad.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Ever.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: I was just like and I never smoked. I was like, yuess, ma'am,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 5: oh wow, but yes, that's apparent, Jacob.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: You were also a smoker.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: I smoked as like a teenager and in my twenties
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: a little bit. Never never hardcore never never real bad
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: drinking or something that's it, or like I might have
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: like a couple of cigarettes at night.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Or what was your brand? Can I guess Marlboro? I
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: was gonna say, I see you're a Marlboro Red man.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: I think I was not a Marlboro Red guy. What
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: I do? I did Marboro lights? I just said, I
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: just did a playing old Marborough light. My friends did
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: the Marlboro Ultra lights, which were the green back.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: They felt like you weren't smoking. I always felt like
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: this just feels like you're just getting the bad drugs
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: and the like all the stuff answer, and it doesn't
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: feel pleasant. Yeah, I wore a tux and I smoked
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: camels because that's what the camel did. No, I did
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: not smoke.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Cigars only, but it did not inhale. I don't what
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: was what was that impression of Bill Clinton? Obviously? Yeah,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: obviously the listeners knew.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: So, writer, this isn't actually a process addiction. This is
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: a chemical addiction. Yeah, So a process addiction would be
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: something more or less with the behavior. Now, although this
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: has behavior supporting it, it's actually a chemical addiction, and
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: a pretty nasty one too. As far as the vapes,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's you said smoking, but it
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: started with the vapes.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, really tough to quit that.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: It seems like the vapes are I might just be
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: talking about out of my ass. Maybe you guys will know.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: It seems like the vapes are more addictive people sneaking
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: the cigarettes. But the cigarettes I guess are worse for
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: you physically.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: I think the jury is still out on that. Okay, Yeah,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: I think there's still some inconclusive vapes, like with hier
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: octane nicotine cigarettes are definitely bad for you. Sure, and
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: vapes are not good for you. Cigarettes are bad for
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: you because you end up looking so cool.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: That's right, And it's just like, oh my god, all
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: the kids out there listening right now, I want you
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: to know that you look awesome.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you smoke, super cool.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: You.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: I remember, never look as cool as you will look
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: when you were smoking. I feel like kids today, and
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: I don't have any follow up to that. Children, Yeah,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: you will look smoke awesome.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: If you're in an alley way trying to be intimidating,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: vape is not going to do it too.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not scared of that guy.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: I remember when we were all kids, I mean, at
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: least in high school, that was a whole thing where
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: people like just smoking cigarettes in order to seem cool.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: There there was an entire contingent that were just you
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: think cigarettes are gym. That's the business. Yeah, yeah, they
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: just look it's literally the entire business that you're described,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: not a thing anymore. Industry is listening and just now
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: came up with that idea. Yes, guys sell feel good.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: I think this guy Gym's onto something.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: Anyway, you were saying about a cartoon camel earlier, Yeah,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: that's right. That well, I mean, there's not been any
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: financial consequences for that kind of behavior, so who knows,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: not any that are effective. Okay, yeah, so I mean
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to point that out and not that
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: that makes a big difference. But here's the thing. So
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: some techniques.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: Number one, the first thing you have to do is
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: you have to find some way of breaking up the pattern.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: That's one of the most challenging things is because it
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: becomes so ingrained that it's.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: It actually yeah, and it's it.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: Takes advantage of a really important feature that our brains have,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: which is the ability to predict upcoming events, right, and
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: to prepare your body for what's about to happen. Yes, right,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: So in the same sense that you know, like if
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: I smell that Laura's cooking food, my body biologically, physiologically
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: starts to prepare for digesting food.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeahvan response.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: Exactly, And that's exactly what it is. And so you're
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: when when neurons fire together, they get wired together. So
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: when A leads to B leads to C, sooner or
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: later A just.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Leads to C. You're stressed at work. We're cutting out
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: the middle, that's right. So it's not just stress at work.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: It's also that seven to eleven. It's that drive from
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: work to the seven eleven. Yeah, it's all those rituals
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: that line up that lead up to that. So what
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: you have to do is find some way of disrupting
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: that signal, right, because it's I use example of like
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: a snowball rolling down a hill, Like the further this goes,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: the harder it is to stop. I love that. So
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: interference patterns. It sounds like you're suggesting like anything different,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: because if you just tell yourself, I'm gonna not smoke anymore,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: but I'm still going to go to that seven eleven. Yeah,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to get myself a slurpy instead. Yeah,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: you dumb ass. That's absolutely not going to be successful.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: There's no way like these things pair together, and so
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: that can't be the case. So you're talking about removing
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: more than just the smoking.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would identify all of the stimuli that are
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: around and associated with that. Okay, So I used to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: do this a lot with you know, like this is
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: the still annoys the shit out of me. But a
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: lot of counselors, drug and alcohol counselors, they'll have one
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: of the easiest things to do for all clients is like, oh,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: identify your triggers.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, what are your triggers to use?
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, which, yes, that's that's very useful. But a lot
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: of counselors just be like, name five triggers. I see
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: that on treatment plans. All oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh okay,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: I guess we're fucking done done. Yeah no, let's figure yeah,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: they're doing ten percent of the work, right, Okay, Because
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: it's not just identifying triggers.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: You need to break it down.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: Let's identify visual cues, visual triggers, Let's identify emotional triggers.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: Let's identify uh.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 5: Triggers.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's identify things that you hear, songs. I mean,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: there's all sorts of things that are triggers. So go
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: through each of your five senses and then identify what
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: those things are triggers. Times of day exactly, what are
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: all of the things that are associated around this?
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: Right, So now that you've got a list of all
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: those things, then now you have to figure out which
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: of these can you put into the pile of things
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: that we can eliminate, and which are the things that
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: are unavoidable that we're going to have to develop interference
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: patterns for right, and then once you've got that, then
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: we can start diving into.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: An alternate coping behaviors. Right, And I like your suggestion
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: there that writer, you won't be successful unless a you
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: can do that part of it, identifying all those things,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: but then be actually scripting out what the alternative coping
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: mechanism is going to be now. And that can't be
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: something you expect yourself to just come up with on
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: the fly. When you're there. You're going to have a
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: hard Wednesday at work dealing with multimillion dollar decisions. You're
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: going to make mistakes, You're going to feel defeated, and
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: in that low point, you're not going to have the
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: emotional resolve to stick to whatever your life change decision was.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to smoke anymore. I'm not gonna eat
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: junk food anymore. I'm not gonna have a beer at
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: line or whatever it is, whatever your your unhealthy coping mechanism.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: When you're already emotionally defeated, when you're already in the
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: presence of your trigger, it's too late. So like, the
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: only way you're gonna be successful is to sort of
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: pre engineer the new coping skill or the new coping
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: outlet that you want to bring to that moment and
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: anticipate that that moment will arrive and when it comes,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: here's what it's I'm gonna do instead. And somebody just
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: popped my head. So one thing could be like, Okay,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: there's a seven to eleven down the street to the left,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: to the right, there's a pet store. The next time
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: I have a really bad day, on my lunch break,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna drive down to the pet store and I'm
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: gonna pet these dogs and cats and I'm just gonna
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: tell them, hey, I'm just interested in buying a dog.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna lie or I'm gonna go into the animal
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: shelter and I'm gonna hang out and pet these puppies
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: for a little while. So I'm gonna do during my
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: lunch break and sit there and eat a burrito and
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: fucking pet these dogs. And like, if you can pre
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: decide that that's the game plan, sounds like okay, okay,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: good notes, good notes, but yeah, something different. If you
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: can pre engineer that new plan and do what you
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: can to prepare that to if there's any preparing steps
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: that need to happen so that you can go like
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: if there's you say, okay, next, I'm gonna walk to
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: with this park and I'm gonna go take a walk
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: to that park. Great, go do some scouting, drive to
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: that park, become familiar with the park, know where it is. Uh,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: know where you're gonna park. If you need to do that,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: get there first, you know, like start to like get
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: these things predesigned. When you can do that, then when
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: the bad day comes, you have a little bit more
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: of this gravity kind of pulling you in that new
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: direction that we don't default to the standard.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that a lot
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: of people don't realize is like how much of this
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: is a brain issue, right, Like it's how your brain functions, right,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people fuck up by
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: thinking like, well, I'm going to do this thing, but
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna stop it right, I'm gonna go to seven
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: A line and I'm gonna do all these things that
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: I always do, but I'm just gonna not smoke.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: Right, just the tip. But there's no way we finish well.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is like it's like that's that's you're starting
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: this biological process this chemical process in your brain and
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: then saying that you're gonna stop it somehow. It's the
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: same way as me saying like I'm going to eat
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: this Snickers bar, but I'm not going to allow my
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: body to digest the glucose, right, I'm not going to
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: allow it to store the glucose.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: This is involuntary.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have no fucking choice in that. Like you've
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: already eaten the Snickers bar. You can't stop that once
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: it's already in your body. So it's it's a lot
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, it's kind of it works
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: the same way, So you have to identify one of
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: those things that you can stop in the very beginning.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: What are your views on like a harm reduction approach
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: where instead of writer going and buying cigarettes at the
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: seven to eleven, are we okay with something that maybe
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: we will celebrate as a healthy thing like going and
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: snuggling and puppies, which is pretty benign, but maybe getting
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: a zin like a shoe or something like that and
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: stepping away from or vaping straight nicotine or something to
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: that effect. How do you feel about those harm reduction approaches.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have success with it.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: I think it really depends on what we're doing and
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Like with the example of like
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: nicotine gum, great example. Yeah, okay, so it's a harm
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: reduction thing. A lot of people have success with that.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: It's something that gives them just that little sense of
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: relief in the same way of like if we're talking
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: about dealing with anxiety or depression and your take a medication,
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: that little bit of sense of relief that you get
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: allows you to implement behavioral strategies, right, So you just
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: need that little help in order to something else, Right,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: So I think that's no, there's no problem with that.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's really useful if you're also then following
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: that up with Okay, I have this nicotine, Now I
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: need to actually deal with my emotion. I need to
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: deal with the thing that set me off, Like you
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: need to do something about that. Right, So, in that sense,
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: harm reduction strategies like that can be very helpful. Where
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: it becomes problematic is when you have opposite substances.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: I see this happen a lot too, where somebody is like, yeah,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try to stop using meth so when
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I have a craving for meth. I'm going to drink
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: alcohol right right, Well, that.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: Doesn't work because your body is doing different things. Like
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: you're you you're not craving alcohol, you're craving meth. Why
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: are you craving meth? You're craving meth because it's a
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: stimulant and it gives you the effect that you want.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: So now you're going to get of your body another
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: substance which is only going to leave it unsatisfied.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: Exactly because it's not gidding lower raw Bridge. Yeah, there's
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: an old joke that we used to say in rehabs,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: like yo, man, they'll be like, oh, I don't have
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: a meth problem, but when I'm drunk, I want math.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: Ba great, your alcohol problem has a math problem. Yeah,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you that right now.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: So like just to like keep down that path, though,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: Like what is your thought if it if it is
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 4: a similar like coping. So if somebody's using like I
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 4: don't know, uh, cocaine to stay a weak or whatever.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 4: But then like they're like woman is substitute with red bull,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 4: Like what are your thoughts on that?
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: Is that?
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 4: It is?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: Well they're not going to get arrested for having red
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: bull right, right, right, So there's a lot of strategies
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: you don't.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: Know about bootlegging, but I am curious.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question, And I
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: think it's I always try to be scientific with a
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: lot of this stuff, you know, like, well, let's try it, right,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: if that's an experiment, Let's run the experiment, Let's see
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: what happens. Let's try to put some guardrails in place
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: before we run the experiment. So if shit goes wrong,
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: you're not going to fall completely out of out of
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: whack here. But like in a case like that, you know, yeah,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: that would probably be a good idea because like it's
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: not going to get me in trouble with my probation officer.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: I can drive while under the influence of red Bull.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: I'm you know, I don't have to put myself in
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: high risk, dangerous situations to purchase red Bull. Like, so
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: it's decreasing the risk in all of these other areas. Okay,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: is it still a stimulant. It's providing something for me, Yeah,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: but it's probably doing so in a way that I
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: can manage.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: So, if I'm hearing you right in the writer's case,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: you're kind of saying, look, if you want to run
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: an experiment where you drive to that same seven eleven
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: and you buy nicotine gum instead of cigarettes, maybe we
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: can run that experiment. Fine, that's the right spirit, but
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: be advised, oftentimes is what happens is people will try.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: They're still doing the same functional thing, and oftentimes they're
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: unsatisfied with the diet cola they just picked up, and
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: they only end up craving the real thing, and they'll
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: they'll relapse. They'll end up going back to that other thing,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: and they'll wonder why that the diet version of it,
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: the nicotine gum, wasn't enough, and they'll think the whole
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: thing's a big failure. And what you're advising here is
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: that's actually kind of a predictable outcome. We tend to
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: see that a lot. Sometimes harm reduction does work. Sometimes
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: we see it go the other way, and when it happens,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: we've got to take on the whole problem instead of
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: just trying to take these half measures. Yeah.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I've done this with a lot
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: of foods. Actually, you know where I've substituted foods that
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy. I've substituted for healthier alternatives. Okay, you
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: know for cutting out soda to going to like sparkling
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: water or even diet soda or coke zero or something
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: like that too much.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: You were a mountain dew man pretty hard for a
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: long time. Now you're more of a Lacroix guy. Yeah,
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: or diet mountain dew Okay. Hey, hey, great step. Journey
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: of a thousand starts with one.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good job, So yeah, writer, I think that would
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: be That'll probably be My first tip is to kind
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: of look for some sort of interference pattern. And I
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: think the other thing too is remember your why, you know,
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: like why are you doing this? What is the point
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: of doing this? Because I think that's the thing that
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: people forget about, they get into, you know, trying to
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: change the behavior, forget about the whole reason why they're
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: doing it, and then that just makes it easier to
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: write lapse back into that behavior.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: I love it now. I think this is really good.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: And like you said earlier, cigarettes, you know, is one
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: of the harder things to quit. I mean, that's just
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: a very difficult thing. It's it's one of those things
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: that luckily, I think as a society we've seen people
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: like give up on cigarettes, but I think mostly because
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: these alternatives appeared and they started kind of transitioning more
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: than really letting go of it. Yeah, nicotine is a
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: really hard one.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 3: Also, I mean there was a decade long, giant coordinated
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: ad campaign against cigarettes.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I used to be in anti smoking commercials. I'm
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: dead fucking serious. So in high school, I was actually
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: do you want to ask you to be in these commercials?
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 4: I was?
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: I was asked by so back outside. Yeah, back when
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: there was that whole like anti tobacco ad Council, HANDICAM,
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: all those like all that money went everybody. There was
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: a southern Nevada health district campaign called Expose xpo Z
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: and they went to local high schools and it just
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: so happened. The lady who was running it was my
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: biology teachers, like former student, and they were very close,
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: and she came to our class and to talk, and
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: then he actually gave us an extra credit assignment where
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: we were asked to help her do a campaign, and
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: so we did, and we hit it off so well
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: that she put me in commercials. I was in television
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: commercials for Exposed. That was the beginning, you know, my
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: childhood Hollywood experience. There was a lot of coke, you know,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: there was.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: There was as soon as I gotta taste as soon
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 4: as I gotta taste of fame, I immediately spiraled out
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 4: of control.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: If you want to get on the pot Therapy cameo,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: you can buy a cameo for anyone and Jim will
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 3: do cocaine on the cameo.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I mean there's a number. You know, there's
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: always a number. There's always a number. Don't be surprised
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: everybody's but there is one. Okay, there's a number. There's
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: always a number. All of us have a price, nect like,
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: you can't be bought. Also, we should definitely definitely a patriarch.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: It's lower than you think for Jacob if the coke
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: is provided, all right, are you in town money? I
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: guess that's probably fine. Uh yeah, we should definitely launch
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: an entire cameo opportunity on the Patreon. I will think
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: about it, but I don't know how to do it.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break and when
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: we come back, we are wrapping up the show. You
• 1:32:13
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• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: Nick, we got a new therapyal Reese Tyron. Oh welcome,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: and I think Reese was on the last episode that
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: we ran names, but I couldn't remember, so I left
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: Reese on there. Yeah, two new therapods, Tom Power and
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  Speaker 1: Welcome friends, wait it go. Well, that's wonderful, And of
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• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: So you guys want to hear about my caper, my
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: Pokemon card caper real quick? Really all right?
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: Cameo Chris Hansen.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: Oh shit, Oh that's big money. Chris Hansen's the pedophile guy. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know. Oh that's well.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: There's two ways that you can meet him. One of
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: them's cameo. The other one you have to earn.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: The other one you put in the work. Children involved
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: in both though. Oh, I mean, I think Chris Hansen is.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: I'll bet three thousand dollars. I'll bet you per and
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: that's worth every penny to have your buddy have a
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: Chris Hansen open like, hey, Nick, it's me Chris Hansen.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Why don't you have a seat.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, if I thought that Chris Hansen would fake
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: accuse people of beig a pedophile, all he's doing cameo,
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 3: that's all he's doing.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: I feel like he's not. If he was, I feel
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: like he would be a multi billionaire, like we would.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: Only see his name would be like who Chris Hansen
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: has all of the money.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: Literally, Okay, okay, so you're gonna lowball this one. Oh
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: I'm so low on all right, I'm three k. I'm
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: three k on the low. I'm two digits. It's gonna
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: be over me. I have multiple orders of magnitude under Jim.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: I feel like conservative servative conservatively.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 5: So you're going double digit, Oh, I'm like forty dollars.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: You got a why bird there? You're going nine dollars?
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, really win this game. I'm so bad at it.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: So that's worth every penny.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 3: If I thought that, Chris, If I thought that, I
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: could get a cameo of Chris Hansen going Jim Joben.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know what you did. That's a talk.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: That's a bar tab easy. So okay, you that said, yeah,
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: you just have Chris Hansen read my tweets. Honestly, that funny. Well,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you right now, Chris Hansen, you're leaving money
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: on the table. Oh yeah, oh yeah, for retirement also patrons,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: if you just want to throw some money away do that.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: Get Chris Hansen a fucking comments up on there feeling
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: Oh I love it, John Day, I mean honestly, but
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: ninety nine bucks for a Chris Handen Can you know
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: that's fantastic? All right, I'll save my my Pokemon caper
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: story for Patreon. Goodbye, everybody,