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Three approaches to life: Q&A · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:02
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Curious
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Mind podcast. In the previous episodes I have
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talked about 3 approaches to life and the three were a virtue
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Orientation, a needs orientation and the self avoidance.
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This is a system that our concept that I developed myself
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based on my experiences and some theoretical considerations as
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well as my experiences and meditation.
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And I've got some questions regarding to these and so I
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wanted to address those and give you some answers, summarize a
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little bit the findings from the previous episodes to have a nice
0:48
round up of this topic that's spanned over the past three
0:52
episodes. So let's just get into it.
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The first question is why are there only three types?
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Well, the three types are there, and there are only three types
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because they are mutually exclusive from their logic.
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It does not mean that they cannot be a mix of them, and I
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will come to those mixes addressing a question soon
1:18
enough. But in the logic of them, the
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three of them are mutually exclusive.
1:23
Why? When we look at the virtue
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orientation, the position of the unconscious, is that because it
1:30
is basically overruled by higher considerations of the virtue,
1:37
they submit themselves to this higher logic.
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So basically the individual, the human is picking, consciously
1:47
picking some virtues that are resonating with them and they
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follow them in their life, be it kindness, honesty, diligence,
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all those different virtues that are available to us because they
2:03
are consciously chosen, well chewed through as I say, and
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resonating with the whole being the unconscious that usually
2:13
provides the needs for our normal life.
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They mute their demands. The unconscious mutes its
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demands towards the conscious subject and thus the virtues
2:28
have a higher priority. So virtue orientation equals
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consciousness has the priority. The unconscious mutes or rests
2:44
it's needs, it's drives in the favour of the conscious virtues.
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So this is the position of the virtue orientation.
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In the needs orientation, we have the conscious subject and
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the the conscious subject sees itself basically as the senior
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partner in an otherwise very healthy corporation, with the
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unconscious meaning that the individual understands its true
3:17
needs that come from the unconscious, the needs for
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safety, the needs for success, the need for exercising
3:27
influence, the needs for travel, joy, all of that.
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It subscribes the consciousness. The subject subscribes to these
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needs because it is basically joy and satisfaction oriented.
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The unconscious again in case that it's working well, the
3:48
unconscious sends out its signals to the conscious
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subject. The conscious subject hears
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those signals. It is not bound to apply those
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needs and to satisfy those needs exactly in the way as it comes
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to its fantasies as sent out by the unconscious.
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No, it has some flexibility. This is why I say it's the
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senior partner. So I get, for example, some
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aggressive fantasies in the form of violent thoughts.
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I'm not as healthy, conscious being.
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I am not bound to execute them, just as they come to me, for
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example, at work, to exercise those aggressive needs in
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violent ways. But I think about what is it
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that the unconscious wants to tell me?
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Oh, it lets me know that I feel a little bit too much powerless
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and helpless at work. And so it creates those violent
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fantasies. I don't pick up the violent
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fantasies, but what I do pick up is this message of don't feel
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helpless, don't feel powerless. And now I'm thinking about the
5:03
tools that I want to apply in order to feel more powerful.
5:07
Maybe I want to communicate differently with my bosses or my
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colleagues. Maybe I want to do a
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presentation that is more according to my understanding of
5:18
the situation. I want to present myself in a
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certain way in order to get a more powerful position at the
5:22
company, whatever it is. But I'm not bound in a slave
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like position to the way that the unconscious sends me its
5:30
signals. I have a possibility to navigate
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around me, around them, so that I find the most healthy way to
5:38
address those needs in interaction with the outside
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world. Because keep in mind, the
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unconscious basically knows itself and knows its drives.
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It knows its needs and communicates them.
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To me it doesn't know very well what is best in the outside
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world. This is my position, me as the
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conscious being. I know what works in the outside
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world. I know what is a well moderated
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approach in order to satisfy those needs.
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And so this is what I do. So again, virtue orientation,
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the virtues have a clear priority.
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The unconscious is submitting itself to these higher purposes
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and the needs orientation, the consciousness is the senior
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partner and depends on a good communication with the
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unconscious and its needs. The self avoidance, on the other
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hand, this is the third approach, is an unsuccessful
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approach both to virtues and to needs, with the result that the
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unconscious, because it is not well addressed, because it is
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not heard, it is dissatisfied. The needs of the unconscious are
6:52
dissatisfied, and thus it sends out uncomfortable, punishing
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moods, thoughts, feelings to the conscious subject and the
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concept subject. Being overwhelmed by those
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uncomfortable impulses from the unconscious and because it has
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not developed the proper skills to either subdue them or to
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cooperate with them, is bound to avoid them.
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This is the anxious type. Or if the communication is well
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cut off because the conscious being has not picked up, does
7:28
not know its needs, then the unconscious stops to communicate
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with the conscious subject and this inner emptiness, this lack
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of communication, the lack of a complex inner world, is what we
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then see and describe as a depression.
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And this is the characteristic of the self avoided type, as you
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will. And yeah, this is the answer to
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the question why are there only three types?
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Because of the position of the unconscious.
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Either it is heard and submits virtue, or it is heard and it's
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fulfilled does the needs or it is not heard and then it sends
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out negative impulses and does the self avoided.
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Next question, is there a way to diagnose one's approach?
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OK, so the idea of diagnosis in psychology, there is a very big
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difference between academic and thorough psychology and pop
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psychology. In academic psychology, in in
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order to do properly, and I really mean that in order to do
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diagnosis properly, you need to develop tools, diagnosis tools
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in a very elaborate way. It takes a lot of time, a lot of
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effort. You need to conceptualize those
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concepts. You need to create an item pool,
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which is very large, and then through different stages of
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conception of the diagnostic tool, the questionnaire.
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You have to filter out those that measure exactly what you
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want, avoiding those that don't measure what you want, or to
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leave aside those that pick up many different concepts, not
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only yours. So it's quite an elaborate and
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arduous process to create very valid diagnostic tools.
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In that sense, no, there is no way to diagnose those concepts.
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We can do it in a more intuitive way, but then it's not valid.
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It's something that you could clearly communicate, you know,
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to your doctor or therapist and so on.
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This is more as in order to understand yourself a little bit
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better. For that it is valid, not in a
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scientific and a precise way. And in order to self diagnose
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yourself, you observe yourself. You observe the level of your
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satisfaction or happiness. You see if you're anxious or
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empty inside, if you know basically what you want.
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If you are anxious or empty inside, then you're clearly more
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the self avoidant type. If you know what you want and
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you are flexible in the way to pursue it and you are by
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inclination or by choice, you are more of a hedonist that
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wants to enjoy life to the fullest, let's say.
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Then you're clearly more a needs oriented person and if you want
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to achieve rather a calm stability piece of life.
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And so on. If you not depend on the outcome
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of your actions, but you're satisfied with going in the
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right direction, then clearly you are more virtue oriented
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person. The next question do the
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approaches mix within a personality and which ones mix
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most often? And here to be clear, most of us
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clearly mix types. It's to find those impurity,
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those three types is almost like an archetype and is a little bit
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artificial. So when I characterize those
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three types, I distinguish them for the purpose of simplicity.
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In reality, we are all mixed types.
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If people are clearly self avoidant and strongly have the
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emphasis on that, we would, especially when time passes and
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the self avoidance avoidance accumulates.
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We would find them in a clinical setting because they are so
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dissatisfied that they would develop a serious mental
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disorder in the form of anxiety or depression or alcohol
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addiction etcetera. Because mostly they have not
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found the tools in order to make themselves either happy or
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satisfied. So of course over time that
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leads to major, major issues in life both within themselves or
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in cooperation with other people in social settings.
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So I think here unfortunately we do have people who represent
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that a lot and these are the people who require clinical
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attention therapy etcetera. Successful needs oriented people
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are hard to find. And this might sound a little
12:30
bit surprising because if you ask people, I think most of them
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would subscribe to a more need oriented hedonistic lifestyle
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who want to grow constantly, who want to enjoy life, who want to
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be happy. But I don't trust those
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basically self declarations. What often very often hides
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behind that is a good portion of self avoidance, where the wish
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to grow, the wish to develop to become better, to be happy and
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so on is more a systematic compensation of where people are
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at. Often we hear these messages of
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want to constantly grow, be happy and so on.
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We are, we often hear that from people who are actually not
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happy or not satisfied with the way that they are growing, and
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then they declare how much they want to be happy, and so on.
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We might see that facade also in social media, but believing that
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we fall into the trap of believing a false facade, the
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facade that people have put up in front of them instead of
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showing authentically what their situation is.
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So I don't believe it. Usually when I see these kinds
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of declarations and people, we have to see behind the facade in
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order to see who people truly are.
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And from my own experience, both in private life and also in my
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clinical practice, I would say it's fairly rare to find people
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who truly are successful in their needs oriented approach.
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And there are reasons why I went a little bit deeper into that in
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the episodes about a need orientation, because it's rather
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delicate to stay in the senior position in the cooperation with
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the unconscious. The unconscious is rather
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strong. It has the power to send
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impulses and it has the power to basically to punish us with
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discomfort and rather than to intelligently understand both
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what these uncomfortable feelings, moods, thoughts,
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expectations, varies and so on. Rather than intelligently
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understand where it's coming from and how to apply them in
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daily life so that a real satisfaction comes out of it.
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We often slip into a more controlling avoiding position,
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so then immediately we slip into partially a self avoidant mode.
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This doesn't have to be strong, it's not a slippery slope that
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you know automatically leads to some clinical issues.
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But often enough there is a good portion of self avoidance in the
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needs oriented approach. So This is why I say it's fairly
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rare to find a successful person who really can pursue their
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needs without suffering much. And what is the mix and the
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virtue oriented type? The virtue oriented approach
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also has a kind of a dark side which slips into self avoidance.
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And this is when people have a strongly pronounced self-control
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issue. So they might proclaim to
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themselves and to others that they are following virtues, that
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they want to be always honest, diligent, sober and so on.
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But what hides behind that is self-control.
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And I I'm not tired to repeat. In order to see if someone is
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truly virtue oriented, check if they are dependent on the
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results or not. People who depend on the
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results. For example, they say I want to
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always give my best, right? Let's say some business
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presentation. So they prepare for that.
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But then they are dependent on the outcome.
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If the presentation was not good, they are judging
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themselves. Maybe they are judging others
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and there is negativity coming into that which is an expression
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of the motivation to contain and to reduce the discomfort from
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within. The punishment for not having
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achieved one's ideals and one's goals, which is basically an
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interjected super ego in psychological terms.
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So the truly virtue oriented person is happy to do their best
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and they don't look at the result.
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Not too much at least, and the one that looks like a virtue
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oriented person but in effect is someone who wants to be self
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controlled. They always look for the results
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and they judge themselves and diminish themselves, look down
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on themselves if they have not achieved those or they blame
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others. So this this is the mix and the
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virtue oriented type. Next question, what are the
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advantages and disadvantages of each approach?
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Clearly the biggest disadvantage in the self avoidance.
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There's really not much to say for it because it yields
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unhappiness and discomfort or a depressive kind of inner silence
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of not knowing what one wants and where one wants to go.
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So leaving aside self avoidance, which is it's a little bit
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redundant, but it's a negative approach, there's not much good
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in it. The advantage of the needs
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oriented approach is if it's it's if it's fulfilled, if it's
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successful, it's is happiness. This is the joy of life.
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This is the the richness of life.
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The advantage of the virtue orientation is a quiet, calm is
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living by standards that I have consciously chosen for myself.
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So there is kind of a high end knowledge of oneself.
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There is an acknowledgement of one's own humanity in accordance
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with one's surrounding, living exactly the life that I want to
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live in, Independence from the outside world.
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This is the main advantage, because in the needs
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orientation, I'm in friction with.
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I'm in cooperation with the outside world, with people,
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circumstances and so forth. The virtual orientation doesn't
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have that. So this is where the quiet calm
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is coming from. What is the disadvantage?
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The disadvantage of the virtual orientation can be loneliness,
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for example, because of the independence from the outside
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circumstances and other people, they might not perceive me as
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someone who is really interested in interaction and exchange.
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Clearly I'm not someone who wants to get and wants to get
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into a dependent relationship. And to a certain extent all real
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relationships are dependent. So loneliness, solitude can be a
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disadvantage of the virtue oriented type.
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Even though those virtue oriented people want to
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exchange, but they want to exchange.
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They want to interact based on virtues and not so much based
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on, you know, individual traits and hobbies and, you know, talk,
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reflect about daily life and in the normal way.
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The disadvantage of the needs orientation, again, is that it's
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a little bit it's a slippery slope.
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With the unconscious there is the danger to fall into into a
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dependence and so that the senior relationship of the
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consciousness slips into a junior relationship and the
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unconscious becomes a little bit too dominating and the way as it
20:34
dictates the satisfaction of its needs.
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Also. I need to know myself pretty
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well for a successful need orientation and have the
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intelligence to look behind the overt expression of the needs,
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to connect the dots and to see that there is a level behind
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that. That I do not have to fulfill
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the needs in the most obvious way.
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But there are ways to go around it by which the unconscious
21:02
still is satisfied and gives me the flexibility to enjoy my
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freedom and to enjoy my happiness from the satisfaction
21:10
of the needs. The next question are the
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typical circumstances that lead us to live according to one of
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these approaches. That's a good question.
21:27
I think people have a predisposition, especially I
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don't think that we can choose very much if we are virtue or
21:39
needs oriented. The next question will, I will
21:45
try to answer that in a little bit more detail.
21:48
So it's not so much circumstances, I think that lead
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us to live according to one of those 3 approaches.
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It's life happens and people develop and then according to
22:00
the inclination that will choose a path that is for them.
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Now given that with external support, with a good
22:12
understanding of what those 3 approaches are, people might
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discover that they are lacking a little bit of virtue, for
22:19
example in their life. So let's say they see themselves
22:22
as purely needs oriented, but the constant strive the work to
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understand one's needs and to apply them.
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For example, in therapy they might understand that oh, this
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is a lot of work and this work is exhausting.
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I need some rest. I need some.
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I need a mode where I'm not so dependent on the outside world,
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where I'm not so dependent on my moods, feelings, etcetera, so
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that it's smart to find virtues that resonate deeply with me.
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And by pursuing those virtues, I give myself a rest a little bit
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more and I can attach to higher truths.
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So in that sense we might tickle a little bit more of either
23:09
virtues or needs into one's life.
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The example for the virtue oriented is the people are quite
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aloof in the way that they pursue their philosophy or their
23:20
religion or their spirituality. These are typically the the
23:25
places where we find expressed virtue oriented people, but they
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lack joy in life and this lack of joy might lead to an
23:39
understanding that something is missing, right?
23:41
So that they are a little bit too much virtue oriented for
23:45
their own good. Maybe they have rejected the
23:47
part of themselves where they would be in more interaction
23:51
with the outside world. They have favored the
23:53
independence from the outside world.
23:56
OK, they did not become a clinical case, but yet some
23:59
color and depth interaction, human interaction, humanity is
24:03
lacking. And so to introduce a little bit
24:07
of a needs orientation, so that colorful joyful satisfaction
24:13
comes into their life That might be the thing that is necessary
24:17
and we can tickle that we can find what resonates with them.
24:22
So here there are kind of circumstances that lead us to
24:28
that relationships play a big part.
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So depending on how the relationships work, they might
24:34
triggering us certain needs that we were not so much aware of.
24:39
For example, the need for understanding, the need for
24:41
comfort when we get into a relationship.
24:45
And before that as a single, I've had a life where it was
24:48
quite independent. So and then I start the
24:51
relationship and the relationship triggers those
24:53
needs and me that I was not conscious of before.
24:56
And so that might be another circumstance that triggers a
25:00
little bit more of a needs orientation than me.
25:05
OK. Next question.
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Do we tend to stick to them or change patterns throughout our
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lives and what stimulates fundamental change?
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And there are some questions that I want to name two, they
25:19
are somewhat similar. How can we consciously change
25:23
our pattern? And more specifically, how can
25:26
you break out of self avoidance in order to find your own needs
25:32
again? OK, so I want to address those
25:36
questions one by one. Do we tend to stick to those
25:41
patterns or do they change throughout life?
25:45
Here's this There's a classic saying by CG Young Carl Gustav
25:50
Jung in German. He was a Swiss, a student of
25:54
Floyd who developed his idea of archetypes.
25:57
He was very much into symbolism, symbolic narratives, fairy tales
26:03
and so on. He had his very own unique
26:05
approach and he had a nice image for that, he said.
26:08
In the first half of life we belong to the earth, and in the
26:12
second-half of life we belong to the heavens.
26:16
This is not entirely true, but it might represent an older
26:20
ideal of life, so that in the first half of our life, and
26:24
maybe a bit more, we are interested in setting up family,
26:29
success at work, sensual joy, all of that and that fades away
26:35
with time. It becomes kind of repetitive.
26:39
We don't get much as much satisfaction out of it as we
26:43
would like to like to have. And then the older we get the
26:49
more we turn into it triggers kind of the wisdom of old age in
26:55
US. And this is an expression for
26:58
basically the taking over of virtual orientation versus needs
27:03
orientation. So there is some sort of a
27:05
development throughout life where the tendency to move from
27:10
needs to virtual orientation in, I would say it's at the
27:15
beginning of our life, early childhood.
27:18
And maybe the end of that is the end of puberty is where there's
27:22
a lot of anxiety. A place where the job of child
27:28
rearing is really to implant in them security and understanding
27:32
of themselves so that then after puberty, as young adults, they
27:38
can pursue their life as to the best of their ability, be it a
27:43
needs orientation or a virtue orientation.
27:46
But before that, children are often prone to anxiety.
27:53
Anxiety, you know, trivial stuff from anxiety of darkness,
27:57
anxiety of the parents, anxiety of being bullied in kindergarten
28:02
school, high school, etcetera. And then the latest in puberty
28:08
when we basically abandoned mentally our home and the
28:14
guidance by the parents and we solely look for our peers.
28:19
The next kids tell us what we do when we're actually anxious to
28:23
be left behind. We want to be just as cool,
28:25
popular, good looking and so forth.
28:28
So there is another surge in in self avoidance because we want
28:34
to be cool for others and we abandoned our self
28:37
understanding. If it's well integrated at the
28:40
end of puberty, we can again focus on ourselves, discover
28:43
ourselves and as I said, we can be more, we can develop more
28:49
according to our predisposition, be it needs or virtual
28:53
orientation mostly needs orientation.
28:56
Statistically, how can we consciously change our pattern
29:01
now? If we are in a situation of
29:02
crisis, then some change is necessary and this change can
29:08
come about, you know, beat in a formal setting and therapy, for
29:11
example. Or if it's in trustful
29:15
conversations with friends, or in relationship in exchange with
29:19
people that are really close to us.
29:23
If we have some interests in but this cannot be forced, if we
29:27
have some interest in, for example, meditation or
29:30
philosophies, ancient philosophy, stoicism, and so on,
29:34
then this might tickle and develop the virtue orientation
29:40
in us. If we spend time with people who
29:43
are in a successful way pursuing their needs, they might both
29:47
give us examples of a rich life. Which then increases our
29:52
appetite to live such a life. And they might be also good
29:55
example examples of how to execute that so that they don't
30:00
do it in a superficial way, but they don't just, you know,
30:04
display a needs orientation. But in interaction with them and
30:07
in conversations with them, they teach us some wisdom of how to
30:11
look behind, as I said before, the most obvious, the most
30:16
superficial expression of the need in order to help us to
30:19
manage those needs and to address them in an intelligent
30:24
way, in exchange with the social reality, the reality of the
30:29
outside world, the reality of my economic situation, and so
30:33
forth. So can it be changed?
30:36
Yes. Can it be changed indefinitely?
30:40
I don't think that we are that flexible to some extent.
30:43
We always fall back on our predisposition at the certain
30:47
stage of life in which we are. And coming to the last, most
30:52
precise question here, how can we break out of self avoidance
30:56
in order to find our own needs again, Therapy is a good way to
31:00
do that, Especially humanistic psychotherapy methods like
31:06
client oriented or gestalt, those are the ones that help us
31:11
to find ourselves again. So there's no guarantee to do
31:16
that, and for some people it's more difficult than for others.
31:19
But this is how I would go about it.
31:23
One simple tool, just to give an example in which direction it
31:27
goes, is I I I am guided. I take as basically a crumbs of
31:35
bread that lead the way I take my dissatisfactions.
31:39
So I'm asking myself in which situations, in which
31:43
circumstances, modes of life, around which people am I
31:46
dissatisfied, anxious, or numb, and that I take as a clue to in
31:53
which places, specifically the unconscious is that satisfied,
31:56
dissatisfied and frustrated. Let's say I'm unhappy with
32:01
certain aspects of my work life, be it with certain people.
32:05
Why? Because they dominate me, for
32:08
example, right? They don't let me speak.
32:10
So there is a certain need that is unsatisfied, dissatisfied,
32:14
frustrated, which is the need for appreciation, the need to be
32:17
seen, the need to be loved, the need to be seen as valuable.
32:22
I take that as a hint. This does dissatisfaction.
32:24
I take as a hint and then I start my intelligent journey to
32:28
find out how could I apply this in normal life.
32:33
I can ask myself, do I have to change the workplace?
32:37
Do I create another context where I find appreciation, be it
32:41
in relationship, in hobbies, in sports or something?
32:44
Can it be compensated? Or by going into the process of
32:49
trying things out? I can go to a Sports Club, play
32:54
volleyball for example, start a relationship or improve my
32:59
relationship with my partner in order to see, OK, I have
33:02
upgraded my general satisfaction of my needs for appreciation and
33:08
daily life. How much does that impact my
33:11
missing my dissatisfaction at work?
33:15
If it does, then this is obviously I have successfully
33:19
compensated for that. If it does not, then I have to
33:22
ask myself again, OK, what else could it be?
33:25
What is the hint there from the unconscious that it is not able
33:29
to communicate clearly to me? What else work related is there
33:34
that blocks me? And, for example, it could be
33:37
the prospect for a more satisfying career, so that the
33:42
lack of appreciation with a certain person, for example, my
33:45
boss at the workplace, might actually stand for my
33:49
dissatisfaction with my job, career, money, situation in
33:53
general. So that I have to change those
33:56
things. And that obviously these
33:59
dissatisfaction frustrations cannot be simply compensated by
34:04
a better relationship or by doing more sports in a group.
34:09
So I'm making an analysis of my frustrations.
34:14
I connect the dots. I create some hypothesis guided
34:18
by those hypothesis. I try to find intelligent
34:21
applications, and then I assess again.
34:25
I evaluate and see how my applications have affected my
34:30
prior frustrations and dissatisfactions, and if not,
34:34
then I'm creating new hypothesis and follow these.
34:38
It is, and in that sense it's necessary absolutely to be
34:43
patient. This is not something that you
34:45
know works overnight, but the journey in itself is valuable
34:50
and satisfying because no matter what happens, I'm getting to
34:53
know myself better. This is on the one hand, and by
34:57
pursuing all those hypothesis, I'm basically also telling my
35:01
unconscious that I am really interested in its impulses in
35:06
the messages that it sent me. So this journey, even though I
35:09
might not have been super successful in identifying
35:12
directly what originally was asked for me, this journey will
35:17
tell the unconscious that I'm interested in a better
35:19
cooperation, and in the process I will learn more about myself.
35:26
The next question how can therapy improve the deficits of
35:30
each type? And I think I've already
35:33
mentioned the basic functions of therapy.
35:37
The big advantage of a therapy is that ideally and again
35:42
hopefully, if I am in a therapeutic context where the
35:46
therapists are well versed in self development in the
35:51
unconscious and reading those impulses and looking behind the
35:55
most obvious layers of the fantasies of the ideas about how
36:02
to satisfy 1 needs and so on. So given all that, the big
36:06
advantage is that there is an outside person who is
36:09
independent from us, who basically has our best interest
36:14
at heart, who is sensitive to the journey that I want to take,
36:18
who listens to us, who evokes those different energies from
36:23
the unconscious in order to then lead to better cooperation Of
36:27
the two of them, what are recommended books on the topic
36:35
now? Because this is basically a
36:37
system that I have developed myself based on my clinical
36:40
practice and insights from philosophy and meditation.
36:43
There is no book per SE about this topic.
36:47
I am, you know, next to my podcasts.
36:51
I am working on writings and eventually compiling them into a
36:56
book. But this is in some distant
36:59
future. For now, I think I can recommend
37:02
humanistic psychologists like Rogers, Gestalt therapists.
37:08
Nietzsche is very good, and highlighting certain aspects of
37:12
human life, virtue, orientation, courage, all these things that
37:18
are necessary in order to have a process of growth, being able to
37:24
see oneself, perceive oneself without anxiety, to accept what
37:29
is coming from within, and then to transition into an
37:33
intelligent application of those in the real world.
37:37
Nietzsche is good of good for that to certain extents.
37:41
If one is philosophically inclined of course.
37:43
And if you are philosophically inclined, it's always beneficial
37:47
to go back to the ancient Greeks, for example the Stoics.
37:52
They are usually virtue oriented.
37:56
So this is what you can find there.
37:59
And they have many ways to shine a light on virtue orientation.
38:07
The advantages of it, the advantage of being independent
38:10
from outside circumstances, the independence also from internal
38:14
circumstances, to be independent from my constant thoughts, my
38:17
feelings, my impulses, hopes, wishes, expectations, fears, all
38:21
of that there is. It's quite exhausting to get
38:27
into interaction with them all the time.
38:30
So the ancients are quite good in portraying an ideal person
38:35
who is virtue oriented, oriented and more independent from not
38:39
just the outside but the inner world itself.
38:42
If one is more practice oriented, the the Greeks and the
38:47
Roman philosophers, I think they are more inspirational in the
38:52
sense that the layout, the logic of it, the easterns.
38:59
So in India for example the Buddhists, the Advaitans, they
39:06
have more a meditation oriented approach which is more
39:11
practical. So if you're inclined to this,
39:14
you will find an approach that you can follow through daily
39:17
practices in order to enrich and develop with a high rate of
39:25
insight and detailed understanding of virtual
39:29
orientation that will benefit your daily life.
39:33
A If you're so inclined, B if you have the talent to do these
39:38
things, if you have the patience to do these things, and if
39:41
you're good in an application. I mean, this is by far not given
39:46
most people who meditate are not very successful on it.
39:49
So again, it's the few that have a real talent there that can
39:54
benefit from these approaches. Even though to try and meditate
39:59
will teach you something always, but it will not, you know, lead
40:02
you typically very far unless you have a strong calling for
40:08
them and the talent. The last question.
40:11
How does our modern culture shape these patterns?
40:14
OK, so I'm going back to the basics that I've described in
40:18
more detail in the three episodes prior.
40:22
The big danger when we approach ourselves, be it in a needs
40:29
oriented or a virtual oriented mode, is we have to know
40:34
ourselves. We have to know our unconscious
40:38
needs, our individual needs in order to be a successful needs
40:43
oriented person. And I have to know myself even
40:47
more in a fuller way if I want to have a successful virtue
40:50
oriented approach. Now, if I am an individual in a
40:55
culture, culture and society are per SE not very interested in
41:00
me. Getting myself, getting to know
41:03
myself very well. What society and culture are
41:07
interested in is that I'm a valuable individual within
41:11
culture, that I advance the culture, advance the society.
41:14
So society has their own ideals, values, needs and so on, and
41:20
they are not mine. Take just as an example of
41:23
society. You know, some mini society is
41:26
family. The family has their demands
41:30
towards me and it's rarely the demand is rarely that I should
41:34
get to know myself better. So to satisfy myself now the
41:37
family members want to be pleased.
41:39
There are some ideals and family to be, you know, to be economic,
41:45
to be successful, to be diligent and so forth.
41:48
But it's not something that I have discovered for myself.
41:50
This is something that comes from previous generations, from
41:53
the bigger cultural, cultural context and so forth.
41:58
So to put it very simply, culture and society are in
42:01
constant friction with myself. Knowledge and culture, depending
42:07
on its position, on its ideals, might steer me away, steer me
42:17
away from myself. Understanding and an overly
42:20
capitalistic society, for example competition and
42:25
comparing myself with others, diminishing others, being
42:29
critical of myself, and so on, will be something that many
42:32
people will go through. And this might successfully
42:36
block my understanding of myself, because all the needs
42:40
that are not in accordance with competition, success and so on
42:43
will be suppressed. So there's a systematic problem
42:47
that will come in from there. In a religious society that is
42:54
based supposedly on virtues but has a pronounced aspect of
43:01
hypocrisy, we will have difficulties to find our own
43:06
virtues there. Our our goal would be to break
43:10
free from the hypocritical, suppressing, controlling society
43:15
around us. So the journey here is that we
43:19
come from a supposed virtue orientation in society that
43:23
prevents me from knowing myself and knowing my own virtues,
43:27
being tired and sick of that, being uncomfortable, unhealthy.
43:31
From that, my first impulse will be to discover my individuality,
43:36
to break free, to find myself, be myself, which is an emphasis
43:40
on needs and only along the way, after I have developed some
43:45
needs, success or frustration again, I might come back to some
43:51
virtual orientation. Maybe I will see some advantages
43:54
of my of my home culture, of my root culture.
43:59
Rediscover them after decades. Or I will implement some
44:04
completely different virtues that are in contrast with my
44:07
supposedly virtue oriented upbringing.
44:12
OK, these were the questions that I got from you.
44:14
I hope you found it interesting to review them and you might
44:19
take away some ideas, some messages for yourself.
44:26
The journey to virtual orientation and needs
44:29
orientation is not easy, but this is part of our life.
44:35
We cannot expect to push some buttons and to immediately find
44:41
myself. It has always been and will
44:44
always be a difficult process to chew through the bits and pieces
44:49
of the contradicting informations around us, all
44:53
those ideals that are presented to us to understand what is it
44:57
that resonates with me. And this is not a clear answer.
45:01
It's always a next hypothesis. I'm realizing something, I'm
45:06
implying something, then I understand something else about
45:09
myself. So it's more a puzzling together
45:12
and more bringing pieces together towards an integration
45:17
that maybe after some years of increasing satisfaction, I have
45:23
a well-rounded understanding of myself.
45:26
And then I don't have to update myself all that often.
45:31
After I have achieved some self understanding and a satisfaction
45:35
with the mix of needs and virtues in my life and have
45:38
learned some tools how to fend off self avoidance and its
45:42
consequences in my life. Then I can do and I will do a
45:46
regular update maybe every year or two or three years where I
45:49
ask myself, am I still on the right track?
45:52
Maybe I want to change something here and there.
45:54
Maybe I need to update my relationship and then just good
45:58
enough. And I think it's when people
46:01
come to this point, they can see themselves as very lucky and
46:07
have lived a worth a life worth living, a successful approach
46:12
that they can master and be good examples for others as well.
46:18
OK, I hope you enjoy it and see you next time.
46:21
Bye.