Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #133 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones

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#133 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, an Edmund, Oklahoma
0:05
Speaker 1: business owner, Paul Howell, was returning to his parents home
0:08
Speaker 1: with his sister and two daughters after shopping for school supplies.
0:12
Speaker 1: Upon exiting the vehicle, he was shot twice and killed
0:15
Speaker 1: for his GMC suburban. Paul's sister would describe the shooter
0:18
Speaker 1: as an African American male wearing a red bandana across
0:21
Speaker 1: his face and a stocking cap with up to an
0:24
Speaker 1: inch of hair sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would
0:28
Speaker 1: tap confidential informants in the stolen car trade that would
0:32
Speaker 1: deflect from themselves and point police in the direction of
0:35
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan and Julius Jones. Chris Jordan would go on
0:40
Speaker 1: to give a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming
0:43
Speaker 1: Julius Jones for the murder, but on the night of
0:46
Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, Julius was at home with his family.
0:50
Speaker 1: The following night, July twenty ninth, Chris Jordan slept at
0:54
Speaker 1: the Joneses home, and that's when he planted the murder
0:57
Speaker 1: weapon in a second story crawl space, something he admitted
1:01
Speaker 1: both to the police and to two jailhouse informants. On
1:05
Speaker 1: July thirtieth, police would find the gun exactly where Chris
1:09
Speaker 1: Jordan had told him to look, and emerge with it
1:11
Speaker 1: wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at trial failed
1:16
Speaker 1: to present any evidence, including a photo taken by police
1:20
Speaker 1: after a traffic stop just ten days earlier, that would
1:22
Speaker 1: have ruled him out as a potential match to the
1:25
Speaker 1: only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, received
1:29
Speaker 1: leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out of
1:32
Speaker 1: prison since twenty fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on death row
1:37
Speaker 1: for crime for which Chris Jordan has bragged about framing him.
1:42
Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's
1:45
Speaker 1: fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as we speak with his
1:49
Speaker 1: attorney Dale Baish and his mother and sister, Madeline and
1:53
Speaker 1: Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plumm Today,
2:11
Speaker 1: we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who's been on
2:13
Speaker 1: death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime
2:16
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very
2:20
Speaker 1: special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her
2:24
Speaker 1: from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West,
2:27
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm.
2:31
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me again.
2:33
Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today
2:35
Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible
2:39
Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too,
2:41
Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this
2:44
Speaker 1: fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Kim,
2:48
Speaker 1: can you tell us when you first heard about this case.
2:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from
2:56
Speaker 2: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her,
3:01
Speaker 2: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about
3:05
Speaker 2: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought,
3:11
Speaker 2: I have to look into this. And I say this
3:15
Speaker 2: all the time because we have such an amazing group
3:18
Speaker 2: of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone.
3:24
Speaker 2: When all of the big players really feel the same
3:28
Speaker 2: way about a case, I know that we have to
3:31
Speaker 2: be loud and I feel in my soul that we
3:35
Speaker 2: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
3:39
Speaker 2: been set yet. That I feel like now is the
3:43
Speaker 2: time where we all just have to come together and
3:45
Speaker 2: really make a difference in his life.
3:47
Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you
3:51
Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most
3:54
Speaker 1: about Julius's case, There's.
3:56
Speaker 2: A few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete,
4:01
Speaker 2: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
4:07
Speaker 2: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
4:10
Speaker 2: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
4:14
Speaker 2: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
4:19
Speaker 2: set up the way he was just really rubbed me
4:22
Speaker 2: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life
4:27
Speaker 2: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
4:30
Speaker 2: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
4:33
Speaker 2: I do if my son got set up like this?
4:38
Speaker 2: So we got to fight for this guy. We got
4:41
Speaker 2: to help him get his life back.
4:44
Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the
4:47
Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who
4:51
Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare.
4:57
Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it?
5:00
Speaker 3: Twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent Julius
5:06
Speaker 3: in clemency proceedings.
5:08
Speaker 1: Now can you walk us through the case.
5:11
Speaker 3: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to
5:17
Speaker 3: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case,
5:20
Speaker 3: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban
5:25
Speaker 3: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood,
5:31
Speaker 3: and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the
5:35
Speaker 3: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot
5:39
Speaker 3: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's
5:43
Speaker 3: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius.
5:49
Speaker 3: Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is
5:53
Speaker 3: Chris made seven different statements to the police, and those
5:58
Speaker 3: statements were inconsistent, And at one point the police say,
6:04
Speaker 3: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't
6:08
Speaker 3: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that
6:13
Speaker 3: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but
6:17
Speaker 3: the police continue to focus on Julius.
6:21
Speaker 1: Something really struck me as I was reading about this case,
6:24
Speaker 1: which was that when the gun was hidden in Julius's house,
6:29
Speaker 1: obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon
6:33
Speaker 1: found in their home.
6:34
Speaker 3: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police.
6:39
Speaker 3: He was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and
6:42
Speaker 3: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
6:48
Speaker 3: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
6:51
Speaker 3: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
6:54
Speaker 3: murder and hid it in Julius's parents' house. We understand
6:59
Speaker 3: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
7:04
Speaker 3: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
7:10
Speaker 3: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
7:15
Speaker 3: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
7:18
Speaker 3: We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit,
7:24
Speaker 3: Lotti and laddel King, that had a lot to gain
7:27
Speaker 3: by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves.
7:32
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell.
7:35
Speaker 3: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop
7:39
Speaker 3: on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was
7:43
Speaker 3: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars.
7:47
Speaker 3: Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was
7:53
Speaker 3: known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was
7:57
Speaker 3: also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information
8:03
Speaker 3: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on
8:06
Speaker 3: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of
8:10
Speaker 3: Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and
8:16
Speaker 3: as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years,
8:21
Speaker 3: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation.
8:25
Speaker 3: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger
8:29
Speaker 3: at Julius.
8:31
Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort
8:35
Speaker 1: of a unit.
8:36
Speaker 4: Right.
8:36
Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You
8:41
Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
8:46
Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that
8:49
Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we
8:53
Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
8:57
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that the number of
9:00
Speaker 1: shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and
9:03
Speaker 1: volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even
9:06
Speaker 1: asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses were incentivized.
9:10
Speaker 1: We know that the description matches someone very much like
9:15
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius.
9:17
Speaker 3: Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with
9:22
Speaker 3: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified
9:25
Speaker 3: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and
9:29
Speaker 3: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana
9:35
Speaker 3: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half
9:39
Speaker 3: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
9:42
Speaker 3: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
9:49
Speaker 3: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his
9:52
Speaker 3: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
9:56
Speaker 3: hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder,
10:01
Speaker 3: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had
10:05
Speaker 3: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo
10:09
Speaker 3: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never
10:14
Speaker 3: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that
10:19
Speaker 3: Julius was at home with his family at the time
10:23
Speaker 3: mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening,
10:28
Speaker 3: Chris and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma,
10:33
Speaker 3: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
10:37
Speaker 3: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
10:41
Speaker 3: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
10:44
Speaker 3: would show up until close to midnight.
10:48
Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his
10:51
Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here, you have a son who is
10:55
Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three
10:59
Speaker 1: different sports in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University,
11:05
Speaker 1: great looking young man with the whole life laid out
11:09
Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible,
11:13
Speaker 1: terrible turn.
11:15
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, it's been a twenty plus year
11:19
Speaker 5: shock and I really can't often find the words to
11:26
Speaker 5: explain what it's been like.
11:28
Speaker 4: We just got blindsided.
11:30
Speaker 1: It sure seems like you went from the American dream
11:33
Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful
11:37
Speaker 1: night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell
11:40
Speaker 1: us what was happening that night and how you know
11:44
Speaker 1: that Julius could not possibly have been there.
11:46
Speaker 5: That was a kind of a busy day for us.
11:50
Speaker 5: I was trying to do Antunette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti,
11:57
Speaker 5: but Julius.
11:58
Speaker 4: Was there all day long. They played monopoly.
12:01
Speaker 6: There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was
12:03
Speaker 6: there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother Antonio and another.
12:10
Speaker 4: Young man that was over there.
12:11
Speaker 6: They got mad at me because I gave Jus all
12:14
Speaker 6: my money and property. I had to do that because
12:16
Speaker 6: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
12:19
Speaker 6: things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday.
12:22
Speaker 6: Jessus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she
12:26
Speaker 6: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in
12:29
Speaker 6: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie.
12:32
Speaker 6: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to
12:35
Speaker 6: go to work. My mother went to go take him
12:37
Speaker 6: to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like,
12:40
Speaker 6: oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking?
12:42
Speaker 4: And I kid you not.
12:43
Speaker 6: He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing
12:46
Speaker 6: back and forth, waiting for mom to come home so
12:48
Speaker 6: he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I
12:50
Speaker 6: kind of was like, well, you know, I was like,
12:52
Speaker 6: Tony hr cookie. And so I'll never forget that day.
12:56
Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody
12:59
Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie
13:03
Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's
13:06
Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July
13:09
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you. Sounds like sort of
13:12
Speaker 1: a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in
13:16
Speaker 1: the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris
13:20
Speaker 1: is at your home, Right, I know that he spent
13:23
Speaker 1: the night that night, which is when we believe that
13:27
Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you
13:30
Speaker 1: recall Chris being at your house that night?
13:33
Speaker 5: Thursday was trash day and Jess usually takes my trash
13:38
Speaker 5: out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway,
13:42
Speaker 5: but Chris was kind of like a shadow?
13:45
Speaker 1: Was there answhen that Were you there that night? Do
13:47
Speaker 1: you remember if Chris was at the house.
13:49
Speaker 6: I know Chris was there because I heard him come
13:52
Speaker 6: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's.
13:55
Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house.
13:58
Speaker 1: Julia's family was purple out of their own home, and
14:02
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan would be in a police car out front
14:04
Speaker 1: to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden.
14:07
Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who
14:10
Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style.
14:14
Speaker 1: But mister Albert. You can't believe this would die. He
14:18
Speaker 1: died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders
14:23
Speaker 1: woefully unprepared, so much so that they didn't put on
14:26
Speaker 1: any defense whatsoever.
14:29
Speaker 3: When it came time for Julius to present his case,
14:34
Speaker 3: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests.
14:39
Speaker 3: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family
14:43
Speaker 3: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not
14:48
Speaker 3: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail,
14:53
Speaker 3: who didn't know each other and independently came forward and
14:58
Speaker 3: said that Chris Jordan told told them that he said
15:01
Speaker 3: Julius up. He told one of the men that he
15:04
Speaker 3: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both
15:09
Speaker 3: of the men that he would be getting out of
15:11
Speaker 3: prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for
15:15
Speaker 3: his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made
15:22
Speaker 3: to the police during his interrogation were never explored by
15:28
Speaker 3: the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris.
15:32
Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why
15:37
Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have
15:39
Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying.
15:42
Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial.
15:47
Speaker 5: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the
15:51
Speaker 5: attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough
15:56
Speaker 5: and he talked to us and he said, I just
15:58
Speaker 5: need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had
16:03
Speaker 5: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they
16:08
Speaker 5: wanted more time, and then after he passed away than
16:12
Speaker 5: they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything.
16:16
Speaker 4: And we were there every day. But one of the
16:19
Speaker 4: excuses after miss Tabbot had passed, they said the reason
16:23
Speaker 4: they didn't call us on the standing after they had
16:26
Speaker 4: sentenced Junius because they didn't know we were there. It
16:31
Speaker 4: was just a mockery.
16:33
Speaker 6: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the
16:35
Speaker 6: word we rest. I think I was a little older
16:37
Speaker 6: than thirteen.
16:38
Speaker 1: Then.
16:39
Speaker 6: I didn't understand how you couldn't put people on the
16:42
Speaker 6: stand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense
16:45
Speaker 6: there and that I mean that, just that pisces me off.
16:54
Speaker 1: You know, Kim, I just I try to picture you know,
16:58
Speaker 1: you really spoke quickly about this before, but putting someone
17:02
Speaker 1: we love or yourself. If you're in the audience with
17:05
Speaker 1: yourself in the shoes of a guy who's at trial
17:08
Speaker 1: for his life literally and his lawyers are doing absolutely
17:12
Speaker 1: nothing to help him, how can that be? How could
17:15
Speaker 1: that stand? And by the way, is that why you're
17:19
Speaker 1: taking the bar.
17:20
Speaker 2: I'm taking it just because I want to know more.
17:23
Speaker 2: If I don't know a lot about the system and
17:25
Speaker 2: how the law actually works, then I feel like I
17:29
Speaker 2: can't help as many people. I know we can get
17:31
Speaker 2: a lot done, but I feel like I put on
17:33
Speaker 2: a different level. So that's why I am taking it.
17:37
Speaker 2: But it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's
17:41
Speaker 2: ineffective counsel. It just makes me so mad, especially if
17:46
Speaker 2: it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you
17:49
Speaker 2: don't have the money to afford an attorney and so
17:51
Speaker 2: you're getting appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective
17:55
Speaker 2: and not help but actually hurt your case so much.
17:58
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how I can live with
18:00
Speaker 2: myself if I was an attorney like that.
18:04
Speaker 1: You know, for me, any injustice troubles me. But this
18:07
Speaker 1: one sticks in my mind because there he is on
18:12
Speaker 1: death row and basically the closest thing we have to
18:15
Speaker 1: hell on earth. And you know, I wanted to ask
18:19
Speaker 1: you about that. How do you feel about the death
18:21
Speaker 1: penalty in general?
18:23
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty
18:25
Speaker 2: no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that
18:27
Speaker 2: have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be
18:32
Speaker 2: behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life.
18:35
Speaker 2: But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't
18:39
Speaker 2: get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that
18:44
Speaker 2: especially if there is even a chance that someone is
18:46
Speaker 2: innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen
18:51
Speaker 2: it happen too many times for this to still be
18:54
Speaker 2: happening on the I can't support it.
19:03
Speaker 1: For people who are listening, now, what could you say
19:06
Speaker 1: to them when they end up serving on a jury which,
19:09
Speaker 1: you know, let's face it, all of us at some
19:11
Speaker 1: point get one of those jury duty notices and you
19:13
Speaker 1: look at it and you go, no, now, I got
19:15
Speaker 1: to disrupt my life.
19:17
Speaker 2: It's literally my dream to do that. I hope that
19:20
Speaker 2: when I get like jury duty, that it's some case
19:24
Speaker 2: that I can make a difference in.
19:27
Speaker 1: No one wants to get the wrong person because it
19:29
Speaker 1: also prevents us from getting the right person. So and
19:32
Speaker 1: in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy what happened
19:34
Speaker 1: to this family where they lost this guy who by
19:37
Speaker 1: all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice
19:40
Speaker 1: for him too, But there is no justice when you
19:43
Speaker 1: have the wrong person in prison.
19:45
Speaker 2: I think you have to be extremely sensitive with the
19:48
Speaker 2: families that are involved here. My compassion for helping someone
19:55
Speaker 2: and I'm not just thinking about Julie as it can
19:57
Speaker 2: be anyone, never takes away my empathy for the family
20:02
Speaker 2: of the victim. And ultimately we all have the same
20:05
Speaker 2: goal as like what you just said is making sure
20:08
Speaker 2: that the right person is put behind bars and that
20:13
Speaker 2: the innocent person is able to be freed from this
20:17
Speaker 2: nightmare that they're in.
20:19
Speaker 1: I mean, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense
20:22
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
20:25
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse.
20:28
Speaker 3: During the trial in the jury room, one of the
20:32
Speaker 3: jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?
20:37
Speaker 3: We ought to just take that in out back and
20:41
Speaker 3: bury them outside the jail, And one of the jurors
20:46
Speaker 3: approached a bailiff and told him what she heard and
20:51
Speaker 3: asked to talk to the judge on the record. The
20:54
Speaker 3: judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could have
20:58
Speaker 3: been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who
21:02
Speaker 3: the juror was talking about. Take the N word out
21:07
Speaker 3: of the equation. You still have a juror who made
21:11
Speaker 3: up his mind and was going to convict Julius and
21:15
Speaker 3: sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there,
21:20
Speaker 3: and the racism is just oozing from this case. We
21:25
Speaker 3: also know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve,
21:31
Speaker 3: there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and
21:37
Speaker 3: the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American
21:41
Speaker 3: male who is convicted of killing a white male is
21:45
Speaker 3: three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma.
21:50
Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no
21:57
Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on case, you
22:01
Speaker 1: guys had your work cut out for you, to say
22:03
Speaker 1: the least. But there was a new law in place
22:07
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and
22:10
Speaker 1: post conviction, so you tested the red bandana right.
22:14
Speaker 3: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years, Doctor Shapiro,
22:21
Speaker 3: used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at
22:24
Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the
22:29
Speaker 3: DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and came
22:33
Speaker 3: to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby,
22:39
Speaker 3: the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled
22:45
Speaker 3: something at her is she was running away, and we
22:49
Speaker 3: identified a stain on the bandana, and we wanted to
22:54
Speaker 3: check if that stain was saliva, and it came back
23:00
Speaker 3: negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if
23:05
Speaker 3: that bandana that was found in Julius's attic was the
23:10
Speaker 3: same bandana that the assailant wore, because there's not the
23:15
Speaker 3: saliva stain on it that should be there. Because the
23:19
Speaker 3: assailant yelled.
23:21
Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you
23:25
Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to
23:27
Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone
23:31
Speaker 1: is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation
23:36
Speaker 1: on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe
23:40
Speaker 1: into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face.
23:43
Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was
23:45
Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana, or whether the gun was taken
23:47
Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they
23:50
Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put
23:53
Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made
23:56
Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several
24:00
Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of
24:03
Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can
24:08
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people
24:11
Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute.
24:13
Speaker 1: Then you know, I guess they got the right guy
24:16
Speaker 1: after all.
24:17
Speaker 3: Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA
24:24
Speaker 3: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests
24:32
Speaker 3: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item.
24:36
Speaker 3: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled
24:41
Speaker 3: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible
24:47
Speaker 3: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with
24:51
Speaker 3: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer
24:57
Speaker 3: of the DNA.
24:58
Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me,
25:02
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
25:05
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
25:10
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
25:13
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a
25:18
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
25:22
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
25:28
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's
25:31
Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA
25:36
Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to
25:40
Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or
25:42
Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway, And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff.
25:46
Speaker 1: Forget the incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
25:49
Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough
25:54
Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that
25:57
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words
25:59
Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to
26:04
Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could
26:08
Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer
26:11
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
26:15
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
26:20
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up.
26:22
Speaker 3: That's it, and one would think that, you know, why
26:26
Speaker 3: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row,
26:30
Speaker 3: But that's not how it turned out.
26:35
Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact
26:37
Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten
26:42
Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him
26:44
Speaker 1: in any way?
26:45
Speaker 2: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has
26:49
Speaker 2: to say. And I mean, what I can't understand, but
26:54
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who
26:59
Speaker 2: could be so angry at the world. And I don't
27:03
Speaker 2: know how I would act if I was in his situation,
27:05
Speaker 2: But to see the grace that he has and to
27:09
Speaker 2: see how he's fighting through this and won't give up,
27:13
Speaker 2: it inspires me. So I want to fight, like we
27:19
Speaker 2: need him to get out. I mean, just to even
27:22
Speaker 2: know that because he was an athlete, to see a
27:24
Speaker 2: lot of athletes support him and write letters on his
27:28
Speaker 2: behalf now to send to the governor has been so
27:32
Speaker 2: amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball,
27:35
Speaker 2: Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and is completely in
27:38
Speaker 2: support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt
27:43
Speaker 2: letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release.
27:48
Speaker 2: Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want
27:52
Speaker 2: to see him released as well, people that grew up there,
27:56
Speaker 2: people that played there. Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma
28:00
Speaker 2: for a little while. His wife is my best friend,
28:02
Speaker 2: you know. I sent him all the facts and he
28:04
Speaker 2: wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the
28:07
Speaker 2: support that has come together. And I hope that everyone
28:11
Speaker 2: really pays attention before it's too late, because we will
28:14
Speaker 2: not go out easy on this one.
28:17
Speaker 1: So, Kim, if you could talk to the governor and
28:20
Speaker 1: you may have that opportunity, I hope, And we know
28:23
Speaker 1: that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares
28:27
Speaker 1: about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure.
28:34
Speaker 1: So if you could talk to him, what would you say?
28:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just first of all, love to walk
28:40
Speaker 2: him through the facts of Julius's case and explain to
28:44
Speaker 2: him what kind of person Julius is and was before
28:48
Speaker 2: his life was turned upside down. And I've heard he's
28:52
Speaker 2: a really compassionate person and really does care about reform,
28:57
Speaker 2: and I just hope to have that opportunity, and we're
29:01
Speaker 2: going to be presenting him all of these letters of
29:03
Speaker 2: support soon, and I believe that he will pay attention.
29:09
Speaker 2: I have faith in that.
29:10
Speaker 1: It would be hard to imagine that he and the
29:13
Speaker 1: members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take
29:17
Speaker 1: action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support
29:21
Speaker 1: of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders, so many different people,
29:25
Speaker 1: and the facts of the case cry out for justice. Yeah.
29:29
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean everyone always asks me like, well, what
29:32
Speaker 2: can we do? And I think the most important thing
29:36
Speaker 2: to do is call the Governor's office and elected officials
29:41
Speaker 2: that can really make a difference, and just be really loud,
29:45
Speaker 2: and you should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot
29:49
Speaker 2: com first of all, look into his case. Everything is
29:52
Speaker 2: on this website, from the documentary The Last Offense with
29:56
Speaker 2: Viola Davis to where you can sign the petition in
30:01
Speaker 2: favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe to stay
30:06
Speaker 2: up to date on what's going on, and it even
30:09
Speaker 2: gives you a link to email the Parole Board. I
30:11
Speaker 2: do believe that the Parole Board is like in favor
30:14
Speaker 2: of a form. I believe everyone is very compassionate. From
30:18
Speaker 2: what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please sign
30:21
Speaker 2: the petition for Julius Jones if you're moved by his story.
30:25
Speaker 2: I've done it. I believe in him so much. I
30:28
Speaker 2: believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot com.
30:41
Speaker 1: We have a regular feature on the show which is
30:44
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, which is where I
30:47
Speaker 1: get to just kick back, turn off my microphone, leave
30:50
Speaker 1: my headphones on and listen. And so what we call
30:54
Speaker 1: this segment closing Arguments, and we're going to hear from
30:58
Speaker 1: Dale ants when and of course Madeline, but let's kick
31:03
Speaker 1: things off with you, Kim Oh.
31:05
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on here, and thank you
31:07
Speaker 2: for everything that you do and for showing me the way. Seriously,
31:11
Speaker 2: I look up to you so much, and I'm so
31:14
Speaker 2: grateful to you for sharing so many cases with me
31:18
Speaker 2: and that we're able to hopefully open up people's minds
31:21
Speaker 2: and hearts that might have been a little bit closed
31:25
Speaker 2: off when it comes to reform or might not understood
31:28
Speaker 2: how they could help, and then we're giving them a
31:30
Speaker 2: platform where they can help out and be a part
31:33
Speaker 2: of the conversation and help fight for people that really
31:37
Speaker 2: really deserve it.
31:38
Speaker 4: So thank you.
31:40
Speaker 1: Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you
31:43
Speaker 1: making the time. I know it's going to make a difference.
31:45
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending
31:51
Speaker 3: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful
31:56
Speaker 3: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he
32:00
Speaker 3: has received that is giving him strength. This case got
32:05
Speaker 3: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan
32:10
Speaker 3: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice
32:15
Speaker 3: and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should
32:19
Speaker 3: all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense,
32:23
Speaker 3: no one would be interested in this case. Julius would
32:27
Speaker 3: have been just another African American man in prison saying
32:31
Speaker 3: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no
32:35
Speaker 3: one would care. There are thousands of julius'es behind bars
32:39
Speaker 3: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason,
32:44
Speaker 3: and we appreciate that. The struggle isn't over. Thank you
32:49
Speaker 3: very much.
32:50
Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
32:53
Speaker 1: she's mom, So antoinete over to you.
32:56
Speaker 6: So first I would say, my brother, Julius Arris Jones,
33:02
Speaker 6: he did not kill Paul howe. My brother is a
33:06
Speaker 6: human being. He is not a number. When we consider
33:10
Speaker 6: people human beings and not just numbers, and we really
33:13
Speaker 6: take into account all the facts. I'm just asking them
33:16
Speaker 6: to correct this wrong. I'm asking you to look at
33:19
Speaker 6: all of the key points in this case. I'm asking
33:22
Speaker 6: you to understand that my brother never got a fair defense,
33:27
Speaker 6: he never got a proper defense, he never got a
33:29
Speaker 6: jur of his peers, he never got a chance to
33:33
Speaker 6: voice what happened to him from his side. And I'm
33:37
Speaker 6: just asking you, as a human being to understand and
33:41
Speaker 6: take my brother in consideration as a human being and
33:44
Speaker 6: not a number. He is not a person that will
33:46
Speaker 6: take a life. He is a person that will protect
33:48
Speaker 6: a life. He is a person that cares about everybody's
33:51
Speaker 6: well being. To this day, he cares. He cares more
33:55
Speaker 6: about how everybody else is doing than how he's doing.
34:00
Speaker 6: That's who my brother is. He's a person that cares.
34:03
Speaker 6: He's a loyal person. He is a person that loves life.
34:08
Speaker 6: I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up.
34:10
Speaker 6: We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even
34:13
Speaker 6: though the defense rests for him, we shall not rest.
34:16
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
34:21
Speaker 4: First of all, Julius is a good person.
34:23
Speaker 5: He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of
34:29
Speaker 5: times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else.
34:34
Speaker 5: And that's the reason he's in predicament he's in now,
34:38
Speaker 5: and I just want to say to the Borole board
34:44
Speaker 5: that one science does not fit all and that I
34:48
Speaker 5: would like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius
34:53
Speaker 5: and to look at what he will be able to contribute.
34:58
Speaker 4: To society if they spare his life.
35:02
Speaker 5: We just need to try to get things right because
35:06
Speaker 5: when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long,
35:10
Speaker 5: but it will either burn through or it will grow.
35:14
Speaker 5: And right now I feel like that justice is growing
35:18
Speaker 5: because it wants to be heard and it wants to
35:22
Speaker 5: be fulfilled what it's really meant to be justice for all,
35:27
Speaker 5: not just for some of us.
35:30
Speaker 4: And you know, freedom is worth more than money.
35:35
Speaker 5: My biggest joy is to help my son home and
35:40
Speaker 5: to be about the things that he's dreamed and long
35:43
Speaker 5: to want to do. And I thank God for this
35:46
Speaker 5: opportunity today to be able to express so many things
35:52
Speaker 5: that I've held in Today.
35:54
Speaker 4: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God
35:58
Speaker 4: for people like you.
36:04
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
36:07
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
36:11
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
36:13
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
36:17
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
36:21
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
36:24
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
36:27
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
36:29
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
36:33
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36:38
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
36:41
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one