Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #946 Porn & Paintings - What's the Difference?

Transcript

#946 Porn & Paintings - What's the Difference? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now. We love
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  Speaker 1: answering your questions on the Happy Families podcasts. You can
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• 0:16
  Speaker 1: That's podcasts with an asset, Happy families dot com dot AU.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Send us a voice memo, let us know what's on
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: your mind, what you're struggling with, what the challenges are
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: that your kids are presenting for you. We received this
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: one from Beth.
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  Speaker 2: High Happy Families Team. I loved your recent episode on
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  Speaker 2: pornography and pornproof of your children, and I'd already recently
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  Speaker 2: just bought the Good Pictures Bad Pictures books, but i
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  Speaker 2: hadn't read them yet because of some questions my son
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  Speaker 2: has already had, and I'm not exactly sure how to
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  Speaker 2: answer when it comes to things like art, like you know,
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  Speaker 2: the Statue of David, like when we're traveling, or when
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  Speaker 2: you see like photos of indigenous nations where the people
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  Speaker 2: don't have any clothes on. I'm finding it hard to
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  Speaker 2: put words around the difference between pornography and nakedness. And
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  Speaker 2: also if my son's always asks like why why can
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  Speaker 2: boys wear no T shirts and girls can't. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I was wondering if you had any insights around those
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  Speaker 2: two to make it more understandable. My son's early six
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  Speaker 2: and he has come to me. He actually saw like
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  Speaker 2: a game that had a baby wearing and happy, and
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  Speaker 2: he came to me and he told me, my friends
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  Speaker 2: watching someone that's naked, so he's he's onto it. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I would love if you had any advice around the
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  Speaker 2: kind of gray areas and about you know, out bodies
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  Speaker 2: and limits with children. Thank you, Bye God.
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  Speaker 1: This is such an important question. Our children are going
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  Speaker 1: to be exposed to skin, to naked bodies, and we
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  Speaker 1: know statistically that they're likely to be exposed to explicit content,
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  Speaker 1: to pornography. Research tells us really clearly, Kylie, that kids
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  Speaker 1: are going to ninety plus percent of our boys will
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  Speaker 1: be exposed to pornography by the age of fifteen, about
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  Speaker 1: seventy percent of girls. The numbers very depending on which
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  Speaker 1: stats you're looking at, which studies you're looking at, and
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  Speaker 1: the average age of exposure is still believed to be
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  Speaker 1: somewhere around about eleven. Our children, if they've got smartphones,
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  Speaker 1: are literally walking around with pornography in their pocket. And
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  Speaker 1: you couple that with the fact, I mean, in Beth's case,
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  Speaker 1: she's talking about a six year old, So we need
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  Speaker 1: to talk about little kids here as well. But kids
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  Speaker 1: are curious about bodies. Kids of all ages are curious
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  Speaker 1: about bodies. That's why three and four and five and
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  Speaker 1: six year olds play doctors and nurses, and it's why
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  Speaker 1: teenagers look at pornography. So we need to talk about
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  Speaker 1: I guess the difference between nudity, what's art for and
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  Speaker 1: what is pornographic? Maybe we can start there.
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  Speaker 3: So the definition I have for nudity is literally just
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  Speaker 3: the state of being nude.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So not having any clothes on, that's that's nude.
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  Speaker 1: And therefore we've got to be able to teach our
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  Speaker 1: children that that's okay, yeah, not appropriate times, in appropriate place.
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  Speaker 1: Normalizing nudity doesn't mean we should be doing more nudi
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  Speaker 1: runs through the living room.
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 3: But I also feel like sometimes, I mean, every family
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  Speaker 3: is different, but sometimes we kind of act like it's
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  Speaker 3: a really bad thing if we're seeing naked.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's not. And I'm guilty if
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  Speaker 1: the kids walk into the bathroom when I'm in the
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  Speaker 1: bathroom because unfortunately, sometimes they just don't knock, or they
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  Speaker 1: look that mean.
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes they never knock, and then they wonder why our
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  Speaker 3: doors locked all the time.
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  Speaker 1: But I mean, I feel like I have an obligation.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if it's right or wrong.
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  Speaker 1: I just I don't feel like with six daughters that
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  Speaker 1: they're supposed to be walking in out of the bathroom
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  Speaker 1: when I'm in there. But if nudity is not a problem,
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  Speaker 1: then maybe I make a bigger deal of it than
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  Speaker 1: I should. This is I mean, this is a really
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  Speaker 1: interesting conversation question for me. Conversely, my parents were pretty
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  Speaker 1: comfortable with nudity. They walked around way too nude, way
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  Speaker 1: too much. Seriously, Mum and Dad, i'man far around. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: that's why I am the way I am because I
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  Speaker 1: remember now I'm remembering it again and I'm feeling a
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  Speaker 1: little bit tormented. Anyway, So that's.
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  Speaker 3: Nudity because my dad's My dad was the same when
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  Speaker 3: we were growing up.
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  Speaker 1: You want to three girls, Yeah, And when I.
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  Speaker 3: Was growing up, my dad always made sure that he
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  Speaker 3: was fully covered, and he would never let us walk
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  Speaker 3: into the bathroom or.
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  Speaker 1: The bedroom modesty while he was modesty.
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  Speaker 3: While he was getting dressed or anything like that. On
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  Speaker 3: the other hand, my mom, because we're a household of girls,
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  Speaker 3: was a completely different story. And so she might be
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  Speaker 3: having a bath or a shower and we'd walk in
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  Speaker 3: and have a conversation with her.
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  Speaker 1: And I think my mom was just like, I gave
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  Speaker 1: birth to you, I can do whatever I want.
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  Speaker 3: And I've kind of raised our kids similar, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I don't I don't hide the fact that I'm naked,
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  Speaker 3: and for the most part, I'm okay with that. It's
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  Speaker 3: interesting because I know that now that we have a
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  Speaker 3: married daughter and she'll come home and she'll be talking
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  Speaker 3: to me and you'll walking and go, hang on a
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  Speaker 3: sec your mum's naked.
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  Speaker 1: Get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And it's just it's become a very normalized. A naked
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  Speaker 3: body is just that it's just naked.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So we've covered off nudity, but then there's nude
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  Speaker 1: art that is there's artwork that says we are glorifying
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  Speaker 1: the majesty, the miracle of the human body. So that
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  Speaker 1: stuff like the statue of David. David, You've got the
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  Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel, the roof of the Sistine Chapel, and there's
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  Speaker 1: so much more that's out there. But I guess what
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  Speaker 1: BET's question is, it gets a little bit blurry, It
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  Speaker 1: gets a little bit hazy with artistic photography, especially maybe
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  Speaker 1: some of the nerd photography, and maybe even some portraits
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  Speaker 1: and things. I mean, every now and again you'll go
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  Speaker 1: into somebody's house and there'll be a neude portrait, a
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  Speaker 1: nude painting or artwork on the wall. And I know
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  Speaker 1: with our kids when that's happened, they've looked at me
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  Speaker 1: and they're like, Oh, there's boobies on the wall or
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  Speaker 1: something like that, Like it's really shocked, and we have
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  Speaker 1: elected not to have that kind of stuff on the wall.
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  Speaker 1: But is it pornographic? What's the definition of pornography that
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  Speaker 1: you found.
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  Speaker 3: Pornography is any material containing explicit descriptions. So this could
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  Speaker 3: be written material or displays of sexual organs or sexual
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  Speaker 3: activity intended to stimulate sexual excitement. So the big word
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  Speaker 3: in here for me is intense intention h But I
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  Speaker 3: also think there needs to be I don't know if
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  Speaker 3: CAVI it's the right word, but it also depends on
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  Speaker 3: the viewers intent.
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  Speaker 1: Right, what am I looking at it for?
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  Speaker 4: That's right? And so for a six year old kid.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not looking at it for anything except curiosity.
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  Speaker 4: That's exactly right.
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  Speaker 3: And I guess for me that's where it becomes gray,
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  Speaker 3: because what is pornographic to one person may not be
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  Speaker 3: pornographic to another person.
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  Speaker 1: So this is kind of tricky as well though, because
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  Speaker 1: we've got to have some sensibility about this, some reality
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  Speaker 1: about this. I mean, Australia is a pretty liberal country.
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  Speaker 1: We're pretty relaxed about things. I've had conversations with some
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  Speaker 1: people who have said, you can't go down to the
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  Speaker 1: beach these days. It's just a pornography scene on the beach, okay,
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  Speaker 1: But most of Australia is pretty relaxed about what's going
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  Speaker 1: on the beach. Not everybody obviously, but most of Australia
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  Speaker 1: is reasonably because again, this is this culture where we're
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  Speaker 1: uncomfortable with nudity, like in general, right and so and
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  Speaker 1: culture that results for our girls, specifically around that is
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  Speaker 1: so damaging tricky. I mean, if you go over to Europe,
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  Speaker 1: very little more around this, right. I mean apparently I've been,
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  Speaker 1: but apparently nude beaches and things and there is no
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  Speaker 1: sexualized aspect to it. It's simply I love my body,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm happy to have it all hanging out while
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  Speaker 1: I'm at the beach because it's a natural place and
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  Speaker 1: it's a natural state. It feels good. Then you look
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  Speaker 1: at some Asian nations and they get upset if there
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  Speaker 1: are swimsuits that are shown in a movie. On some aeroplanes,
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  Speaker 1: they used to I don't know if they still do,
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  Speaker 1: but on some UNEs aeroplanes they would actually edit swimsuit
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  Speaker 1: scenes out of movies.
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  Speaker 4: Well they have their public baths.
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  Speaker 1: Well that's true, which is nudity.
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  Speaker 3: Completely known with strangers.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe culture is important when it comes to this. Look,
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  Speaker 1: I think we need to move on to something that's practical.
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  Speaker 1: I want to go back to what you've said. There's
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  Speaker 1: something about the intent of both the producer of the
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  Speaker 1: material and the person viewing the material where you can
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  Speaker 1: help to define a line between pornography and art. But
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  Speaker 1: when you're talking to a six year old, probably not
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  Speaker 1: going to go there. It's something it's a more nuanced
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  Speaker 1: conversation for older kids.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think as an adult, having a clear
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  Speaker 3: rationale and understanding yourself makes a huge difference in your
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  Speaker 3: capacity that then have a conversation with a child and.
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  Speaker 1: What you're comfortable with and what you're not willing to blacklist.
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  Speaker 3: Your values are going to play a huge part in
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  Speaker 3: where this conversation goes.
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  Speaker 1: So I reckon if I was to look at it,
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  Speaker 1: I would say this pornography is about intents, buying sexual feelings.
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  Speaker 1: Art is designed to inspire and evoke and promote alle
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  Speaker 1: I think that that's probably a way that you can
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  Speaker 1: describe it, even to kids, when you're trying to talk
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  Speaker 1: about the difference between artistic nudity and pornography.
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  Speaker 3: I know when you and I got married we had
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  Speaker 3: conversations about art in particular because number one, there is
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  Speaker 3: a lot of it, but having grown up in a
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  Speaker 3: very conservative home, we never had any kind of nudity
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  Speaker 3: on display, or we didn't go to museums and things
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  Speaker 3: like that. And for me personally, when I see beautiful art,
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  Speaker 3: it actually just leaves me in awe of what my
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  Speaker 3: body specifically does, like how it works, and just how
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  Speaker 3: beautiful it is, how beautiful our human bodies are.
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  Speaker 2: See.
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  Speaker 1: I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm feeling a
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  Speaker 1: little bit confused because we were in Bali a few
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  Speaker 1: years ago and they had a whole lot of wooden
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  Speaker 1: carpetings and statues, totem poles, you know where I'm going
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  Speaker 1: with this, right, And there were a whole lot of
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  Speaker 1: penises on them, like big ones, little ones. They were there,
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  Speaker 1: and they were right out there for everyone to see.
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  Speaker 1: And the kids were like, what's that? What's that? We're like, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: that's a penis. And then there's that whole thing. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: that's not porn octree right, that's ah, that's culture.
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  Speaker 4: That's culture.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe we don't even put that in art. Maybe I
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  Speaker 1: need to get some Maybe we should bring some Balinese
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  Speaker 1: totem poles into our backyard. That's all right, Let's talk
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  Speaker 1: about what you're supposed to do when the kids stumble
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  Speaker 1: across something explicit. Let's see if we can be helpful here,
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  Speaker 1: because it's going to happen, and the way that we
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  Speaker 1: respond to it really matters. I want to whiz through
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  Speaker 1: this just in a couple of minutes, Kylie. I think
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  Speaker 1: we can do it reasonably quickly and reasonably effectively. The
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  Speaker 1: first thing that we need to do is make sure
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  Speaker 1: that we stay calm and reassure them if kids encounter
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  Speaker 1: anything that's explicit, or even if they're just stumbling upon
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  Speaker 1: some artistic nudity. We need to let them know that
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  Speaker 1: it's okay, and that they've come to us to talk
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  Speaker 1: and they've done the right thing.
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  Speaker 3: In a perfect world, we're actually going to pre arm
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  Speaker 3: them before they've even seen anything.
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  Speaker 1: Ideally, yeah, and will say if this ever happens, you
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  Speaker 1: need to let me know.
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  Speaker 3: Some years ago, I had this very experience with one
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  Speaker 3: of our girls. She was looking on my computer. She
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  Speaker 3: clicked on a link and up came a very explicit picture.
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  Speaker 3: And I was in the room, but I wasn't aware that.
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of what she was specifically doing, and
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  Speaker 3: in that very instant she literally slammed the screen down
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  Speaker 3: and she looked at me and she said, Mum, I
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  Speaker 3: just saw something. When I opened it up and I
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  Speaker 3: saw what she'd seen, I couldn't believe. In that moment,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: literally wanted to give myself a pat on the back.
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't believe that those conversations we'd had actually had
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  Speaker 3: gone in and that she acted.
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  Speaker 4: So it was just instant.
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  Speaker 1: How old was.
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  Speaker 4: She She was seven?
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  Speaker 1: So I think, going back to Beth's question, when we're
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  Speaker 1: talking about young kids, they want absolutely to do the
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  Speaker 1: right thing, and they know the difference. They know the difference.
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  Speaker 1: They know pornography when they see it.
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  Speaker 3: When I opened the computer up to see what she'd seen,
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  Speaker 3: I realized it wasn't actually as scary as she'd make
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  Speaker 3: as she felt it was, but it was definitely nudity.
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  Speaker 3: And I said to her, I'm so grateful that you
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  Speaker 3: told mummy, if this ever happens, you just literally you
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  Speaker 3: did the exact thing that I needed to do, come
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  Speaker 3: and tell me. And so when I asked her what
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  Speaker 3: made her do it, she said, it just made me
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  Speaker 3: feel funny insideret And so we were able to have
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: a conversation about what she was feeling and why she
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: was feeling that. And she knows that if she ever
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  Speaker 3: has that experience, that she's not going to get in trouble,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: that we can she can come to me, and that
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  Speaker 3: I will help her to work through that.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, And you've pretty much shared the other tips that
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  Speaker 1: I had, So number one, stay calm and reassure them.
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  Speaker 1: Number two, once you know what they've seen, exit out
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  Speaker 1: of the content, close the content. Let them know that
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  Speaker 1: that's the right thing to do, to shut it down
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  Speaker 1: and to walk away from anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.
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  Speaker 1: And again, pornography will make them feel uncomfortable. Art it
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: might leave them curious, but it will usually the discomfort
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  Speaker 1: will be a completely different level of discomfort to what
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: pornography will make them feel. That's such a critical conversation piece.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: The third thing that I was going to say is
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: seek adult help. Well, guess what. That's what happened in
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: the story. She went straight to you trusted adult, parent, teacher,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: counselor someone. And kids need to know that they can
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: confide in you without getting in trouble and they'll get
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the guidance support they need. Fourth thing, have a conversation
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  Speaker 1: about boundaries and values. This is what you've done. And
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: then something that you didn't mention is just have a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: conversation once they're emotionally okay about future media consumption. What
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: do they need to do to be safe, How they
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: can be protected online, how they can avoid harmful content
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  Speaker 1: in the future. These are the steps that we go
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: through so that we can make sure that our children
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  Speaker 1: are going to be safe because they will be exposed
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: to it, and what matters is who they've got to
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: process it with and how it can help them to
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: be healthy coming up the back.
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  Speaker 3: One of the things that Beth shared was that her
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: son had been watching something on TV or on the
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: internet and it was a baby with a nappy, so
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: a naked baby ultimately, and it just got to be
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: thinking when I was in primary school, remember when we
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: were at that awkward stage and if anyone said anything
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  Speaker 3: about a penis or boobs or the whole class.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: I remember what we Nike sings. We used to sing
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a song, was it combayats. There was a song about bosom.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the word bosom came up. I mean,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: bosom is just a beautiful word. It's an old fashioned
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: word for your your chest area. But oh my goodness,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: when we were in primary school, were to crack up
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: when we spoke about the bosom of the anyway, and it.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Just made me think about just how important it is
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  Speaker 3: that we talk about our body parts and we use
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  Speaker 3: the right names and just make it a normal part
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: of our conversation with our children. It's not something that
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: you know, we kind of talk about in secret, but.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: We don't talk to everyone about it.
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  Speaker 3: This is a conversation that you have with mom and dad.
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  Speaker 1: Beth. We really hope that we've answered your question thoroughly,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: probably too thoroughly to be honest, but we hope that
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: this helps everyone with those tricky conversations about these tricky
• 15:29
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• 15:32
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