Latest / The High-Performing Technical Leader / Ep.36 - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly of Job Searching in PreSales (IC or Leadership), with Mattie Stremic of 2nd Connections

Transcript

Ep.36 - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly of Job Searching in PreSales (IC or Leadership), with Mattie Stremic of 2nd Connections · The High-Performing Technical Leader

• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Technical Leader Podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Arvi Kirkanji.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And as a reminder, we do this podcast intentionally live and on edit it with all of our guests.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to dig in today.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm joined by Maddie.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: She's actually the founder of Second Connections and has helped coach professionals in pre-sales for the last six years.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I'm so excited for our topic today.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm ready to deep dive into it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Maddie.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining me today.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, RV.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is like a small space, and we're two of the, like there's I know there's a couple, but we're two of the only like female founders in this space.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been so much fun to get to know you and yeah, get to collaborate on this.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that for us.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And Maddie, before we dive into all of our juicy topics, um tell us a little bit about your story.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: How did you even end up in this like wonderful world of pre-sales?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's, I mean, like I mentioned, pre-sales is such a small world and it's such an amazing community and space to exist in that once I got in, I didn't leave, even though my job changed.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so kind of actually, if we, you know, backpedaled a little bit, I started really um when I was in college with just realizing I have such a big passion for people and process.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I ended up getting my master's in what is a mouthful, but it's called industrial and organizational psychology, which is really a fancy way of saying, you know, like studying um in the science of people in the workplace, their motivations, also their performance, um, hiring, all of those pieces.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from there, what started as an HR, then I ended up stumbling and becoming a founding SE, and I joined the pre-sales collective and then ultimately got plugged into the community.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so since then, I've done recruiting, I've done enablement, and really have specialized in being what I call kind of like a career advocate and career connector and working mainly with pre-sales, but the last four years also sales individuals from career changers all the way to VPs and helping them navigate their job search and think about their careers in a really strategic way.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first of all, how cool that you knew before getting into college what you wanted to do and like what your super like power was.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me, it was not like that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was one of those people that eh, I don't know what I'm gonna do, so I'm just gonna, you know, do a business management like college degree and see where that takes me.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that is pretty cool.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I've never heard of that title before.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's very interesting.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I love how you went from like HR to founding SC.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything when you were in that role where you were like, what did I get myself into?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Or like, what is this?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: How did you even find out about like the founding SE role?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it was really interesting because it was a pivot internally.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so at the time the CEO was doing all the demos and they realized, hey, we need an SE position.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Who could potentially ramp up fast?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Who can be good in front of customers quickly?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so they ended up approaching me about the position I'd never heard of what a sales engineer was.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I will say I didn't sleep well for the first six months.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had nightmares every night because I was having to learn all about SaaS sales for the first time ever.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was selling to insurance companies, so I had to learn all about payers, and like insurance providers.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it was a whole new space.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I will say it definitely challenged me.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was only in the role for a little less than a year.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as the founding essay, I was doing all of the demos.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it definitely gave me a unique exposure in working, you know, really big deals with these large insurance companies.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did realize I did not want to sell to insurance companies for the rest of my life.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and quickly they got involved in presales collective and then ended up getting hired there.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's a topic I'll touch on a little bit later because there's such, I mean, like you said, the pre-sales community is pretty small, but it's becoming bigger and a lot more people are looking to get into pre sales.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love, I love the fact that you went from like the same company from one world to the next, especially in pre-sales, which is what I recommend usually a lot of people do.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but later on, I'll ask you about maybe some steps on like what can people do when they want to get into pre-sales or just not in it yet.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Before we get there though, tell me a little bit about second connections.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: How did that come about?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: I love the name, such a cool name, and also so self-explanatory, too.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: But tell us a little bit how you ended up founding that um that business.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, really everything in my career, I always say, is a testament to, you know, a lot of intentionality around building relationships with people.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um every career opportunity that I've had and you know, seat at the table that I had came through someone that knew someone.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of second connection, those loose connections are often the ones that end up opening doors for us.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so with second connections, we're really leaning into what I'm most passionate about is like people-driven coaching.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because right now, AI can do so much to help you.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can even do reps with AI, it can help you with your resume, even though it'd be warned, there's a lot of ways that can go wrong.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there is an element to what I felt like was missing is access to opportunities.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're trying to do that in a really relationship-driven manner in both the way that we coach and work one-on-one with individuals, but also in the way that we try to connect them to the greater kind of pre-sales and sales ecosystem.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so cool.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I totally agree with you because right now, with AI making everything so much more accessible, I feel like it's lost trust in a lot of people, like for applications, a lot of lost trust there and like not trusting who's applying and who should we talk to.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: But like you said, those second connections that network is what really opens up the door, uh, which is honestly most of our topic today.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, one of the first questions I want to ask you when we you and I spoke like off stage, we said, or you said, is that nine out of 10 leaders right now are looking.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, you also told me that the last thing you'd want to do right now is be looking for searching for a job as an SE leader.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you say that?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I will say I said nine out of 10, but no one, that's not an actual stat.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: That was, you know, me say, like, you know, based on my experience, truthfully, it feels like, and from what I've seen, you know, if a leader isn't actively looking, they're actively curious about the next opportunity.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's for a few different reasons, in which, you know, not every organization is doing exceptionally well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I also have seen just a trend in leaders being hungry to be challenged again.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Of like you scaled the team, you built a certain process, and now you've just kind of got this product, you've got this team, you're just kind of running it, you know, it's a plug plug and play kind of situation.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, now when it comes to like, why would I not necessarily, I don't envy folks that are in the job search in general because I see it every day of how how tough it is.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: But also for the SE leaders or solutions leaders, the positions are so few and far between.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the same people are going for the same roles.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the expectations there are really, really tough.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So now we've got even director level positions where they expect you to be player coach.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've been a director for a while, there's a good chance that like you haven't necessarily be been hands-on involved in deals and like POCs in in some time.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: You've been kind of managing process and team performance management.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so now if you're searching and you've been far removed from deals, you're in a tough spot.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: If, you know, and I would say the majority of the SE roles I see now are player coach, even if they're second line, um, which is really interesting.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I agree with you a lot because I go through like the other side of it where I'm working with companies and they're requiring exactly that, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're like, oh, I want director.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh technically it's like a VP role, but like I'm on director level so that maybe I can pay them a little bit less.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And also they need to own new all accounts or majority of accounts and then lead the team and then build processes, et cetera.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So then I have conversations with you know, director level people that have not necessarily been owning accounts or actually actively selling in the last five years.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna put you on the spot here, and let's just say, so here's one of the most common things I get when I ask, like, hey, have you been a player coach or do you own any accounts?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Yeah, I did like 10 years ago.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, that's gonna be hard to translate for me to the, you know, the client that I'm working with and say, yeah, this person is relevant, but they did it 10 years ago.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: How would you coach somebody?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would you say somebody says or does when it comes to that type of experience?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this is kind of the two, like, there's two main things that you can really do in this situation.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: One of which is you need to bring specific examples and stories that are as close as possible.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what are ways that maybe you did contribute or work more closely with a specific SE in in a deal cycle, or where did you enter it?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or showing kind of some of those same skills that they're looking for out of their SEs.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other side is showing them how you would do it at that company.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so that looks like sometimes we call or like um creative assets or different things that you build within the interview cycle to show them that like you, even if you haven't done it, you know the strategy and you have an exact plan for how you do it at that organization.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think I said two things, but I'm actually gonna add a third.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is really, especially if you're a leader, is you know, a couple of years ago, I would never go tell a leader, like, hey, just do a bunch of product certifications for this role that you're interviewing for, because they're so focused, they need to be focused on like the strategy, the big picture, preparing for that, like 30, 60, 90.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: But now sometimes they have to give demos.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: But if you need to show them that you could also be an individual contributor, do the same things that you would do in an interview cycle if you were an IC, which means like actually go do the product certifications, actually go study and make sure that you can, that you could be able to demo, even if they're not asking for it, um, as a way to show that, like, okay, yes, you've been removed from a lot of the hands-on boots on the ground situation, but you're willing to put in that extra effort.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, you're behaving, yes, you have to give the strategy and the vision, but also doing those additional things like the product certifications, build something with the product, like those extra layers.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you brought up a really good point in terms of like getting product certifications while you're on the job, et cetera.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, my next question is how do I search low-key, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And not get caught by my company because I also don't want to risk my current job.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And where do people go wrong when they're searching quietly?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not encouraging people, you know, to start all searching at the same time, but I do always say, even for me, is like the best time to search is when you're not really looking for it or you're not really needing it, because you can be way more picky and you can find the right opportunity without being in a hurry.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this is interesting because some of the same suggestions I'm gonna have for leaders that want to stay put are the ones that I also have for leaders that want to explore elsewhere, which is as a leader, you have to be building your brand.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be visible externally, not just internally.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're thinking about like you want to get promoted at your organization, or you want to get a new job, or you just want to grow as a leader, two of the best things you can invest in is building your brand on LinkedIn and building your brand by, you know, speaking in panels at events and things that are outside of your own ecosystem.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because your executive team, your leaders see that, see you as contributing, see that like now you're doing some social selling.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, you're sharing stories about you know your own experience, but you're also promoting your company.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then that is also exceptionally helpful for if and when you do decide to leave because you've put yourself out there, you've put yourself in rooms with other people that can actually open doors for you.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I would say that's one of the best things you can do, even if you're listening to this and you're not searching or not thinking about searching, like building your brand right now is absolutely crucial.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to somebody that is in an IC role, similar position?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're maybe looking or not looking, what can they do to be more attractive to new positions?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's getting kind of crystal clear as far as what you want.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because the problem with pre-sales is that the role and the skill set for it is so different depending on the organization and the technology that you're selling.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not just like a, you know, a one-to-one match.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes where I see folks go wrong is that they are looking like they feel like, okay, they've been an SC at Salesforce and they think they can just go be an SC at Snowflake.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that you can't and that that's not.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on your skill set and your background and also your upskilling journey.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that's gonna be like a longer transition.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So really understanding, okay, where what is most important to me?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do I want to make a pivot, in which case I've got to expect a much longer journey, or do I want to like really understand my existing skill set and look for organizations that are gonna value that and then focus there?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I think part of the problem is there's not a North Star for most folks.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then they're applying to all these different roles, and you know, like a sales and like an AE at Databricks is often gonna be more technical than maybe an S E at DocuSign.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and those are completely different roles.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So understanding a little bit of that there's so much variability in the role and what your existing skills are, I think is very helpful.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that you brought up such a good point because actually I'd love your opinion on this.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I jump on call sometimes, even with people that are actively looking.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when I ask, you know, what are you looking for?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: What's your ideal scenario?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Where would you want to land?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: The answer I get, I would say 70% of the time, not putting everybody in the same bucket, is oh, uh, I'm open to anything.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that is such a broad answer.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like intuitively you'd want to say, like, yes, I'm open to anything.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not missing out on any opportunities.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: But even for me as a recruiter, when I hear that, I'm like, well, I have no idea where to place you because I don't know what you're looking for.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would you like versus not?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: So then you have to, well, I at least I do.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: I ask more detailed questions.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, so you want cybersecurity and sports SaaS?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh no, no, I would hate those two.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you do have an idea where you want to land.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that you don't know how to express it.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what would you say in this case scenario?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you think it's better for people to have an exactly kind of like an ICP really in who they're looking to go after versus like being more broad, or how do you guys suggest that?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it's such a competitive job market, one of the worst things you can do is pursue a bunch of different types of roles at once uh and not necessarily have a North Star.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when we work with people, usually either we have a understanding that in the like first two weeks we're gonna work with them and help them narrow that down, or that they need to come knowing I 100% want an SE role or I 100% want an AE role or a CSM role or whatever it is.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just because if you're pursuing multiple roles or a bunch of different types of roles all at once, then it creates confusion for recruiters that want to work with you and for hiring leaders, and you need to have that cohesive narrative on your resume and your LinkedIn and also in your stories.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's kind of the same thing of like, even if you're a leader and you're pursuing IC roles and leader roles, now, like what happens when you apply to that I see role, but they go to your LinkedIn and it's all decked out as far as like pre-sales leader.
• 16:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, together, like, oh no, you're you're you're trying you're compromising right now because it's a tough job market.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You don't actually want this, and you might leave as soon as you get the opportunity to be a leader again.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: If we can't immediately move you into a leader or don't have that pathed out in with where we're at right now.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very true.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have this saying I say, uh I don't know if it's mine or a stolen from somebody at some point, but if you're going to change your resume for more than 50% of what you have on it, you're probably not applying to the right roles.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because of course, we want to match your resumes and you know, slightly adapt them, maybe 10, 20%.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like anything above that is like you're you're just not clear on where you're going after.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about that?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or did I kind of completely miss the mark?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I completely agree.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I use the rule of thumb of like five minutes or less on.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good one.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because if you're overhauling it entirely or spending a bunch of time, then either you don't have a good resume that's dialed in for like what you need, or you're pursuing like too many roles or a role that's just like out of reach.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and honestly, Maddie, I gotta say, I'm a little sad because I thought that we were gonna have different opinions and maybe clash a little bit, but it sounds like we're on the same, on the same page, which is still cool because that means that what you're seeing versus what I'm seeing is is the same.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we're aligned on what the market's looking for.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, with that being said, what I'd love to do now is just share a little bit of like what I'm seeing companies are looking for, and then maybe you can share in terms of how you coach a coach came that it's for that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, you know, obviously you guys also help them place into a role.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to see like if there's a difference or you know, what that looks like.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say the biggest shift that I see personally when I'm working with companies, and to put a disclaimer on it, most of my companies that I work with or clients are also in that startup phase.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: So a little bit different if you're applying to like scale-ups or you know, actual enterprise level companies.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the biggest difference that I've noticed lately is domain expertise.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of my startups are looking for, you know, kind of like what you talked about is like, are we coming from like cybersecurity space or like a space like Dapisign completely different?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And they just truly don't believe that the two skills can be transferable.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking again, there's a lot of disclaimers that go into here, but for SE roles, it's you know, obviously really important.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: For an founding AE role, that's also really important.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how do you, I guess, what have you seen on your end when it comes to domain expertise?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a lot of turmoil in terms of opinions on that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I think that's definitely something that we've seen too, especially in working with leaders over the last several years.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be find the right leader.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, um, that's the priority.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then their domain expertise, that's something we can close the gap on, and they don't need to be an expert on everything in the product.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now that's even if it's listed as a nice to have, it's a must-have for leaders in most cases.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: One of the issues is there's always outliers.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we have kind of what you can expect, what's the norm.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I completely agree that like domain expertise has become so, so important.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a must-have, even if it's listed as a nice have.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Every once in a while, I see someone or I work with someone where they had no background in that whatsoever, and they went out against other candidates that did.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of those stories sometimes get shared on LinkedIn.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is sometimes almost like maybe everyone feels like, oh, that's super feasible and it's feasible to do in a shorter period of time.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not necessarily.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you always got those outlier situations where it's crazy, like someone completely like a teacher, you know, working at like a company that's actually very technical, you know, like those crazy stories, but that's definitely not the norm and it's not the exception.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're going for roles that require a major shift in domain, expect your search to take two to three times longer.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's I agree with that because I'll tell you an example.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: I had somebody that was a screenwriter before, and they went into an A for a super technical company.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Complete outlier does not happen often, and they were a startup too.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's not the norm, especially for this market.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why that happened, though, which kind of brings us back to your main kind of core focus of why you built second connections, is because of those second connections.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: They used somebody that used somebody that took them.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So most of the time, those outliers, unless you completely crushed it, they probably knew somebody and had a warm connection to get in front of those people and really believe in them.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 1000%.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to ask you this.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: What is somebody doing?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you know, what is the difference, I guess, for somebody that's getting a job in six months versus somebody that maybe might get it a little bit sooner?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: What are some things that they're doing to really stand out in front of leaders?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how do they position themselves, um, et cetera?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there's zero doubt that anyone that's job searching is working incredibly hard.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone is working incredibly hard.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so it's usually not an issue of effort, it's about effort in the right places.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then to go back to our conversation or what we were talking about previously is also having that North Star.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so sometimes I have people come to me and say, like, hey, I think I want to make a career change.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not getting traction and getting the role that I've always had.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually the exact opposite thing of that you should do.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be harder to make a pivot than it is to get the role that you've always had.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's Just the nature of we're in a really tough market, and that's why you know, like you haven't gotten as much traction.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: But as far as like some differences, is there is especially now with AI, uh, there's a lot of like spraying and praying, and there's a lot of applying of best practices, job search best practices, but doing it inconsistently.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So where I see the fastest results for people are like if we take a side if they're making a pivot or not making a pivot, either in role or domain.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if we take that out of the equation, is actually implying what you know to do or applying what you know to do consistently.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what that looks like is instead of pursuing 10 roles all at once and applying to 10 roles that week, it is like doing two roles and doing all the things that you know to do, which is like that deep research, like get those product certifications, reach out to those people, network, do that from A to Z.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do all the things that like I think a lot of us know to do and do it consistently for less opportunities.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Be hyper-targeted.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that is gonna go so much farther than trying to put your hat in the ring for a lot of things.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because usually things slip through the cracks as far as like, even when it comes to like interviewing, if you are in too many interviews, you can't study and practice to the extent that you need to get to the job if you are too maxed out.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're in like five interview cycles, you cannot be as successful as if you're in two to three and you're doing like all of the additional pieces, which means that I guess what I'm trying to say there is like their expectations of what you know about the product, the space, uh, their buyers are so, so high.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't meet that mark, then like there, you just don't have a shot.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in order to meet that mark, you've got to be able to study and have time devoted to that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is such a good point.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say one thing that I think also turns off hiring managers right now, too.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And whether it's right or wrong, obviously I love your opinion on it, but it's also an employer's market, so they have the option to do that, is when I'll jump on calls and screen some candidates.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't say one of the first things that they say, but typically within our screening call, they're like, Oh, but I'm also interviewing for like five other roles, so I would need to really speed up this hiring process.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Usually just doesn't work well because you're making this feel more transactional.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you mention that to the hiring manager, to them it feels like, oh, so he's just doing volume, he doesn't really care about the company he ends up with, or she, I don't know what I'm saying, just he, but he or she doesn't really care about the company they're ending up with.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: How would you position yourself, you know, if I'm a candidate and it is true, maybe I am interviewing for five other companies and I don't care where I land, but I do want to make sure that I'm landing with the right place.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how would you say, like, we should position ourselves on that end?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think like, what is the point of of bringing that up?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is it that you are truly in nearing final rounds and you actually need them to speed it up?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: In which case, I would never say I'm in final rounds for five companies.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I would recommend saying, like, hey, I'm approaching the end of process for a few other opportunities, but this one has like is extra exciting for me.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is there opportunity to, you know, speed things up just a little bit?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the hiring timeline, RV?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does that look like?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit more conversational.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd really only bring it up if there's actually a need there that early in the process.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're in like you just got one more or two more interviews to go and you're about to get an offer elsewhere, there's a little bit more urgency, but yeah, I think it's about framing it, is how I would position it.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we're at our rapid fire section, and I'm really excited to ask you these questions because I typically we have the same questions for everybody, but obviously our conversation is a little bit different, so I switched them up a little bit.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, these are fast questions on my end, but they don't have to be fast answers from your end.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what is one tool you recommend right now for someone searching for their next job?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna mix it up from what I've talked about in the past, and I'm gonna say dot.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um in other words, so it's ChatGPT's agent.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of different agents that exist out there, including like GrockBot and all those kinds kinds of things.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say my dot, uh, which I'm not even gonna say what I've named it because it's so silly.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um now I want to know.
• 27:00
  unknown: Oh no.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully everyone skips this part.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I've named it Pookie.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my uh someone else on my team, Winnie, she's named hers Pookie Jr.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: is hilarious.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like that's so funny.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and anyway, uh, but having an agent to help kind of you manage as far as follow-ups and reminders, because it's proactive, it's not waiting on you to prompt it.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um now it does require subscription.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like hundred dollars.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not paid by ChatGPT, but I will say it's worth that investment as far as having something to kind of partner with you along in your search is really helpful.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I love that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've actually not tried that yet.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have heard it like three times in the last few days.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I might have to check that out.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, cool.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: What is one tip that you would give for people who are loyal to companies in this market?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think the concept of being loyal to companies doesn't make any sense to me.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I understand being loyal to people that work at the companies that you work at.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what is the underlying thing there is people want to do right by people, uh, as far as not put their boss or their team in a rough position.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think the concept of being loyal to a brand or company is, I think it needs to just go away like altogether.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um disappear.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just disappear.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because look, it is transactional.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: The company hired you, you're working for the company for a paycheck.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think what the underlying thing is people want to do right by their team, by you know, their, you know, like their leaders.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is if you have a better opportunity somewhere else for your family, like you have to take it and there shouldn't be guilt there.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think where you can do right by the people around you, but I had a situation in which I gave them four weeks' notice, and it was a huge, like, ugh, I really didn't want to give four weeks notice.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I still got chewed out.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't enough time.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile, there's a company that I'd worked for, like, from the moment I woke up to when I went to bed.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can never perfectly make people happy.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think companies happy.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to focus on to the best of your ability, can you do right by people?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but most importantly, doing right by, you know, your family and yourself.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, it's such a crazy concept right now because I, like you said, I do understand doing right by people, but I've been in so many situations with candidates where maybe they just didn't want to even talk on the phone about like the specific role.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I understand if it's like completely outside of your scope or like not something that excites you at all.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if it's in the ballpark or you know, it's something that you do like and you would enjoy, and you would be really good at it and for more pay and kind of all the stars aligned and still saying no, and then two to three weeks later it's like, oh, I was part of the layoff.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's I mean, it's setting because we've probably moved on at that point.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think, at least as of right now, there's been a time where we've said, oh yeah, it's still actually available, let's let's have a chat because things are moving very fast.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I agree.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the loyalty to the companies, it's it's for them specifically, it's always gonna be to them first.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And some companies they try to do right by people, and I totally, you know, I'm I'm for it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, they're gonna look at their PL first and then make that decision.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
• 30:30
  unknown: Okay.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Next, what is one interview tip that you have that most people would disagree with, or maybe it's very unpopular?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I would say um there's a few here, and I know you've asked for one.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I feel like this one, you know, maybe people know, but never script your answers word for word.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um always outline.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is when you script and then you say it, you sound robotic.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's a that can be, I think, a very big issue when it comes to hiring leaders, like wanting to feel like you're authentically showing up to the call and being yourself.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's an easy way to get scanned out really, really quickly.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'll say one thing that I like a lot, and it's not necessarily an interview tip, it's like a prior to interview tip is working on your communication skills.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that's very underrated, but it's very important nowadays because knowing how to sell yourself, it's actually a skill set.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're really good at, well, I should say most people are really good at selling other things or other people or products, but when it comes to selling yourself, uh sometimes there's a disconnect.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes for everybody, including myself.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: But from I see to leadership, is it's way easier for me to sell a candidate than sell myself.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds kind of selfish or egoistic when I sell myself, and it should actually not be that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, funny enough.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I work with AEs and they always say, like, hey, I sell for a living.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I can't sell myself really well.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it it actually, yeah, to your point, there's something about because you're both the salesperson and the product at the same time, and most people are aren't used to being in positions where they have to pitch themselves like that.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, very true.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then what is one big mistake that you've probably seen companies make either through interview process or in offers, and what would you recommend them do instead?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would say the one of the biggest pieces is getting candidates like closing the feedback loop.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So having worked a ton, ton with candidates and those in the job search, I have seen so many cases where someone has done a final round presentation and then gotten completely ghosted by the company and the hiring team.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I understand like that's because they're juggling a ton of things that happen.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I also understand why like it's unskalable to give every candidate feedback, um, and especially at every level.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um that is, I think, very a poor way to treat someone that has gone through all the rounds.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand, like, it's a little bit different, I think, honestly, to go someone if they've just done a recruiter screen or like something very early.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, things just fall through the cracks.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: But when someone's taken all the way to final stages, um, that is something that if you have done that as, you know, as a as a leader, I would go back and apologize.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I've done where I like totally forgot to get back to a candidate in the past, and I went back and like literally apologized to them.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just because it's that person probably split in this job market, they probably spent 30 hours prepping for that final presentation.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that honestly is something I will never understand is how companies can ghost, especially towards the last rounds.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: I actually even talked to a leader once where they were like, Yeah, I met with the CEO.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: I did two presentations, and I met with one of their VCs and they ghosted him completely.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just insane to me.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I truly don't understand it because you're again, especially for startups too, it's like your reputation on the line, and you just really need one person to talk bad about you, whether it's LinkedIn or TikTok nowadays or Instagram, whatever.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And your reputation will, you know, kind of be tainted a little bit.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's something I will never understand, especially with how much AI we have and workflows and agents that run on your background and remind you of things, even if it's an automated email, like at least, you know, do that.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, even an automated email is better than just like completing things.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I will say that you brought up something interesting, which is you know, it just takes someone going on LinkedIn.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I stand by is, and I know everyone has different opinions on this, but I would never recommend, even if you're so valid in every point that you make, never complaining on LinkedIn ever.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you've got a bunch of people that like react to it and support it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like on LinkedIn, a lot of times that's other job seekers.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, it just gives an impression, even again, you're totally valid in every complaint that you've had in your entire experience.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I would just personally, it it's kind of like you don't post anything weird on Facebook when you know your employer might check it, kind of thing.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, agreed.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is one thing I know people feel really strongly about it because LinkedIn is also like a place for people to like raise their voices and be heard.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but unfortunately, and I'm curious, I guess, you know, Arby on your end, have you seen that at all?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's your opinion?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, I honestly 100% agree.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's all it's exactly what you said is like you don't want to post what other employers are gonna look at you for, like political posts or something that's like extremely controversial because, like you said, you can be completely right, but what is more important for you right now is being completely right or getting the job or being a part of the company, you know, helping your family out because obviously a lot of us have families, so it's yeah, I I would never recommend that either.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't luckily had that happen through my candidates.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another thing that I've seen a lot is like when we're in interview processes, especially the final rounds, is like backdoor referrals, um, where you know, obviously you give yours, but like the company will go and backdoor them and find other referrals.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always good to not end in a bad note, post about it in a bad note, or you know, talk like really controversial topics because at the end of the day, whether you like it or not, there's gonna be bias.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is what it is.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cool.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're at our hiring section now, and I want to get a little bit more tactical to help somebody that's maybe looking, or you know, they're in a process where they're thinking about it.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, what would be like if you can give us a couple of steps to do if I'm currently looking for a job right now to stand out and monks a crowd?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes back to kind of first being very clear on your North Star.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so before you start like applying to roles and doing a bunch of things, taking a bunch of certifications, like posting about things left and right, like get aligned on what it is that like is most important to you and what do you need right now.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a position where you like need a job ASAP, it's probably not the time to make a career change.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you're in the position of, you know, needing a job, it's probably not the time to make a massive domain shift or pursue roles that are in like really out of your technical depth.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you've got a little bit more cushion, if you've got a little bit more time, that's that's completely different.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of people that just want to be strategic about their next move, but if you're in a position where you need something ASAP, get aligned on your North Star.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be that like you stay in the same domain that you've done historically, and then that becomes your target company list.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I mean, you mentioned like, hey, it's kind of almost like find your ICP, and that's exactly how we talk about it as that connections, because we treat it like a sales process, which is you need your North Star, understand like what is it exactly that you're going for and what your strengths are, and then build a target company list based off of that.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just going and applying to roles that are just being posted, have that target company list and start strategically networking and having conversations at those companies, even if they're not hiring right now.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: So talk to other people that are the same level as you, even below or even higher up, um, and get those conversations either on LinkedIn, go through a pre-sales collective or other communities, attend in-person events, uh, and really lean into the networking component.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as you can, try to do that in a way that's as authentic as you can, which doesn't mean like you're coming through the door and immediately asking for referrals, but really leaning into like getting to know other people, asking more questions, then you talk, actively listening, um, being a champion and support for other people uh is a great way to like approach that networking component.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really the North Star target companies and then really leaning into the relationship-driven side.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you do want to make kind of a pivot, um, then you need to do upskilling.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And most everyone needs to do more upskilling around when it comes to AI and their AI stories.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've got a lot of leaders that typically tune into these.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have any leaders, you know, a huge encouragement for you here would be audit yourself and your experience and see do you have really good AI stories of how you and your team have not only used and leveraged AI, but had an impact on the entire team or organization because of what you've done.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have those stories, then you need to go build them or you need to compensate for them because that's going to be the expectation on the other end, is that you are much more AI driven, even than maybe the people that work at that company right now, but anyone that comes in the door, they have a higher expectation for.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I want to validate all of them first of all, but two of the most important ones as well is your connections and network.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in my experience, there's definitely been times when we're hiring.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then if somebody has a referral internally from the company or they were referred to by a really trusted person, if our interview process is like four to five steps, they've skipped those first three steps and gone straight to fourth and fifth.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so networking and using your connections right now, it's honestly huge in this market.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so definitely, definitely lean in those networking.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you want to make sure it's built as a relationship, not just like as a transactional, oh, I met you here.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Can you introduce me to this person, et cetera?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Get on an intro call first, just introduce yourself, what you've done, et cetera.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Build a little bit of foundational trust and then go ahead and you know, use them or ask them for a referral at that point.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so super important there.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: In your opinion, what separates somebody who's really good in terms of like an A-player in an interview process and someone who's not, or maybe some tips on how I can get to be an A-player in that process?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it's thinking through of like having a holistic plan that's more than just how you show up to interviews.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of times we think just so much about like, okay, what questions are they gonna ask me?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: And like, let me like prep for that.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let me research the one person that I'm interviewing for.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like how we'd coach people is like, by the time you get to the hiring manager stage, you should have already had calls with two to three other peers at that point in time.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that means you're having conversations outside the process.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know some companies are a little bit more strict as far as like they don't want candidates doing that.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Usually those are HR tech companies because that's considered HR best practice.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: But um, as a candidate where there is room, you do want to have conversations.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then what that means is you come to that hiring manager conversation having intel and information that allows you to speak much more directly to like what they're looking for and ask better questions.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not just how you're preparing for that actual conversation and what happens in that like 30 to 60 minutes, it's what you're doing outside of it.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that also looks like I mean, we've talked about, and I think a lot of SCs know this, but sometimes kind of forget to do it or don't make time for it, is like the product certifications, build something with their product and then come to that call ready, like and show them what you've built, or follow up immediately after with what you've built.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um those are just kind of all those things really like stack on top of each other.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: So just thinking about like, do I have a whole strategy for me in this interview cycle, or am I just preparing for one interview at a time?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Last thing I'll say, and I know I'm being long-winded here, but that final demo round, a lot of times they make you demo their product or solution.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they give you a choice, but a lot of times they make you demo theirs.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know that that is gonna up like be upcoming, and you don't start prepping for it until you have the prompt and instructions, you will be ill-equipped to succeed in that round based off the expectations that they have for you in this job market.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so what that means is you start prepping for it much earlier in the process.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes back to like learning everything you can about their product, their buyers, having those offline conversations, building those advocates that now then help sell you internally.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to it's very much a sales process and having a strategy or approach from like your whole interview cycle, not just the one interview in front of you.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is so good.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, two rapid, more rapid fire questions for you.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Cover letters, yes or no in today's market.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, uh, I wouldn't bother with them.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I did recruiting, which was like six years ago, I never read a cover letter once.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Literally never once.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now if it's required in application, yeah, do it.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I I wouldn't bother otherwise.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, do really like personalized outreach.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, agreed.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then number two, how do you feel about like reaching out after the call and sending like follow up emails or thank you emails for like leadership or whoever you interviewed with?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think send your thank you um like it immediately after, like within the first 30 minutes after that conversation.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then having a follow-up in two to three days is totally appropriate.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: I also recommend, especially when you're in final rounds, any interview that you wrap up, you immediately send a note to the recruiter and say, Hey, I just had this conversation.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: It went well for this reason.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like, thank you so much for coordinating.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me know if you need anything for next steps.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that you loop in your recruiter across every stage.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: It also gives you insight to like how quickly the recruiter responds and like their response gives you some good hiring signals of like, is this going in the right direction?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or have maybe I lost this opportunity.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so good.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with both of them.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll just add this is I don't think that necessarily you saying thank you to the emails or the sending a thank you email after the interview process is gonna make you get the job.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: But if it comes down to, for example, you and a different candidate and you've sent thank you notes throughout the entire process, they will, I feel like subconsciously have a better pro or a better um, what's the word I'm looking for, bias towards you versus like someone else.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and it goes back to all of these things that we're talking about, they stack together.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got one candidate, or if you've got two candidates, they both prepped, they both did well, but then one of them networked with the team, took the product certification, uh, built a 3060 90, followed up immediately, uh, sent like check-ins kind of thing.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the other one didn't, even though they did well in the interviews.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like the next candidate is looking, that second candidate is looking better.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, to anybody listening to this, it is actually insane how many people don't do the things that we're just talking about.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because you think that somebody listens to this and says, Yeah, I'm I will do everybody that's listening, I will do every single step.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I promise you that still 90, let's just give everybody benefit of doubt and say 80% of people are still not doing these foundational steps that are not about like being this crazy ninja tricks on the interview process.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's just thank you notes and reaching out, etc.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think what's key here is a lot of people say, like, well, I am doing that, but are you doing it consistently for every opportunity?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not, I mean, there are too many, too many opportunities in the works.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because usually it's like, oh, but I am, but it's just it's just not every single thing for every single one.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, so good.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, last thing I'll ask.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is there any common red flags that you probably see on both sides of the table, maybe as people are going through interview processes or on the company side.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll I'll take one that it's kind of different than what you asked, but I think it goes well.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, which is a lot of times people are saying, oh, if the if you didn't have a good experience with a recruiter, then it's a reflection of like the company organization.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that's absolutely like not true.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's one signal, uh, but the recruiter is like there's so many things that go into it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can also have an amazing experience with a recruiter, but it not mean that the team is great or the opportunity is great whatsoever.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're like the recruiter is on a very different team, like on a team, different team than the like the hiring manager is.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and ideally they're partnering together and they're in sync and then like it's great culture across the board, but I would treat it as one signal versus just saying, like, oh, I had a good experience and it means that this culture is really good, or or I had a bad experience and I don't want to move forward in the process.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I know everyone has a great experience with you, RV, but I've heard plenty where they're like, oh, the recruiter was so transactional and like it just didn't feel super great.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like the culture is not gonna fit me.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, no, no.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Have a conversation with the actual team that you'll be working with every single day and treat this as one signal, but don't let it represent kind of the whole.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one where I feel like people go wrong as far as like missing is this a green or a red flag?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: That is such a good point.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'll add one more caveat to that is not just the recruiter, but also sometimes, like, if there's like four or five people in the hiring process or the interview process, I've had candidates that do really well, for example, with one leader, and they're like, Oh, I mean, you're gonna be a great fit here.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: They start talking as if that person is hired or they're gonna get an offer.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the candidate kind of gets in over their head and they're like, Oh, I had such a great call with this person.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get an offer.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: I actually want this number.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Well, let's slow down for a second.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: That is one person out of like five people, just because he or she liked you does not mean you're gonna get an offer, and you still still should treat the interview process as if you don't have it yet, because there's plenty of times where it just drops off and it's like, Well, but I had such a great call.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you got ahead of yourself, is my opinion.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen that in your end?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, so often.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the the toughest thing is when that means it's like, oh, I've got it in the bag, so I don't have to try so hard.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or they like less pressure to like apply elsewhere and have more of a what we call like a full pipeline, like you want a full pipeline.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then what happens if you get rejected there?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Starting over from scratch is always so much harder than than getting rejected and having other opportunities in the mix.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Soul crushing, yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's soul crushing versus disappointing.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't disappointing, soul crushing.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have you have to go to the mountains for the weekend and then restart your job search, you know.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I actually had a uh experience with this candidate where this exact thing happened.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: They had such a great interview with this leader, and they were like, I have this in the back.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: So then every other interview stuff that they were taking, they were talking as if they already had the job, and they were like, Oh, when I start here, and like this is what I'm gonna do.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: And like they just got so much ahead of themselves.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the feedback from the other leaders was, well, she's kind of egoistic.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know why she's talking as if we've hired her.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm kind of confused, like, I didn't get a full understanding of her experience.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, they ended up denying her, but it was like because you got ahead of yourself way too much, and you had to like really slow down.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely don't do that if you're listening to this.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um Maddie, thank you so much for coming on.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think this was such a needed conversation uh for me specifically, but for the audience.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first of all, it validated a lot of things that honestly I'm already seeing and doing, and glad to know I'm not crazy and I'm not the only one.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's like another perspective that's kind of gone through the same process.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I really appreciate you being on here and just dropping so much value.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, where can people connect with you if they want to uh stay in touch with you?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you so, so much for having me.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say um, you know, if there's something around the job search, if you're looking for some more support, like definitely reach out to me on LinkedIn.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: We also do a lot of different like events, like we're doing a speed mentoring event next month.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're a leader in IC and you want to get involved in that way, I would love to have a conversation.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just shoot me a message on LinkedIn.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can definitely attest to that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've attended some of yours actually, and they're really cool, really awesome.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your job, first of all, so much free value on top of everything else.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: So highly recommend you guys connect with her.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, for those of you watching what live or maybe catching the replay later, again, connect with Maddie.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure you still send me comments, either if especially if it's in LinkedIn.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tag her, make sure that your questions are answered.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: But um, thank you, everybody.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: See you on the next episode.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everyone.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, RV.