Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / How a Perfectionist Lawyer Learned to Stop Trying So Hard - with Kara McCarthy Perry

Transcript

How a Perfectionist Lawyer Learned to Stop Trying So Hard - with Kara McCarthy Perry · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: What an incredible conversation with Kara McCarthy Perry.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: After two decades of practicing law in big law and in-house settings, Kara realized she needed out.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now she works as a consultant, helping organizations and teams build cultures grounded in trust.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: She teaches law students about mindfulness, well-being, and negotiation.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she's one of the leaders behind the scenes and on stages who is transforming our industry for the better.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: She also teaches laughter yoga.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: You heard me.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Laughter yoga.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is such a wonderful conversation, and I came away with a new friend.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: As is the case with so many of these episodes, tip for making friends as an adult, host a podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Please remember to rate and subscribe and enjoy.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: It is fantastic to meet you.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: How are you today?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's very great to meet you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was watching.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where am I?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Todo Santos, uh close-ish to Cabo in Mexico.
• 1:14
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I was watching some of your videos, and it seems like you're also a beach person.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm also a very strong lady person.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hear you fine.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you hear me?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just have like some weird feet.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I can hear, but I can hear you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can hear you fine.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that was better.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was seeing that you were a beach person.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: That is my yeah, that's my happy place.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: It is also my happy place.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have my toes need to be very regularly in the sand and I need to be charged by the sun.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just that's how I operate.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I have it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's for me, it's the water, like too, because like I sit under an umbrella, like I because my you know, my age and my skin.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh yeah, I'm a I'm a cancer sign.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but um it's just where yeah, I feel even when I don't feel well, like when my after my mom passed away, my dad was like, and my my dad, my husband was like, you we have to go to the beach.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like my birthday sooner, we're going to the beach.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't want to go anywhere.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I just and we went and it was rainy and just walking on the beach, and just like it's just healing in like so many ways for me.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I'm the same.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think for me, it's also very much about the water, even though that's not generally how I talk about it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh we've had similar sorts of things where I'm, you know, recovering from a I my appendix burst a couple years ago and I was septic and it was a whole thing.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then once I could move, my husband was like, okay, I'm just gonna we're gonna go, you can't really walk yet, but I'm gonna carry you there because you need ocean.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that is my even when I was really young and I didn't understand anything about mindfulness or the nervous system or anything.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I understood that something felt different at the beach for me.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't spend like that much.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I spend so much more time at the beach now.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's I I didn't understand it as a kid, but I understood that something was different about my experience and how I felt.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: We used to go to the Jersey Shore when I was a kid.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like we, you know, that's what we we did.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just loved it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And one time my parents, and I and I love all beaches, um, but I do love the Jersey Shore.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: But one time my parents took us to like Virginia Beach, and I was like, the beach was like, and um, Virginia Beach is great too, to anybody's there, but it was like so much, so much um smaller.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember we were like, what is this?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I both but the same.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've always I've just always loved being at the beach.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I am not a big water person at the beach.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like I will go in, um, but I could just sit there for hours.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like my husband, my family laughs.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just sit there, nobody needs to talk to me.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: I can have my book and I'll just sit for hours.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: I love it in the fall, I love it at, you know, in the early morning.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: The big joke is because we go down to the Jersey Shore now um every year with with my family.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I love when we have a house on the bay and we can see the sunsets.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the kids are always like, I'm like, we can't go out to dinner.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's a sunset.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, there is one every night.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, but it's different, it's different every night, and it feeds my soul, and we're ordering in again.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a big deal to know what feeds your soul.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of us spend a lot of time not actually knowing what feeds our soul, and even often I think a lot of us, even once we start to understand it, it we still can get bogged down by like, well, that doesn't feel I have to do the productive thing, and like, sure, I know that that feeds me, but like you it's not an automatic to just do the thing that feeds your soul because it's not we're not like talking about that in law school, like build your career while doing the thing that feeds your soul.
• 5:17
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: And there's the reality that it doesn't what feeds your soul, yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: What feeds your soul doesn't always feed the body, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so we like there, there's you know, there is um I it's you're a hundred percent, hundred percent on.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And there's something that when I I teach this and talk to law school students about it, they're kind of like, yeah, and right, everybody's like drowning in debt and things like that, which I totally get.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: I totally get.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I try and teach them like let's be a little more intentional, right, about the decisions that and the things that you're doing um and how they align with your values, which is like not something I had heard about at all when I went to law school.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So of course.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that you know, law schools and it it's in I'm now having so many conversations with lawyers who are currently practicing and lawyers who don't practice anymore and now help lawyers, other lawyers practice the way that they want to.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much more discussion around values and how to figure out what they are, because they're not defaults and they also might shift over time, but you have to spend time figuring out what they are in order to live by them.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's becoming more of a conversation, but you still have to look for it, I think.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's back up just a wee bit.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you go to law school in the first place?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you ask everybody that question because uh it's always, you know, I'm always interested in it too.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I ask I I ask very much on purpose, which is, I mean, I would like to think it's you know clear that it's on purpose, but the reason is so many of us go to law school and then we go off and do something that has nothing to do with why we went.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's nice to remember like, wait, where did this whole thing start?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, and it's okay if the reason changes, but did it start?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and my story is very similar to many stories.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did not want to go to law school.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess it's different because sometimes you hear the people like, that's all I wanted to do.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm always like, wow.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like these people that knew that at like such a young age, I'm like, wow, that's really cool.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did not want to go to law school.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was a lawyer, he was first generation.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: He grew up in Vermont.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, his dad was a plumber, his grandfather was a barber, you know, like he was the first one to go to college and things.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um I saw him.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: He worked at a big New York law firm and uh was a partner.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, just saw the lifestyle that he had, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: He was never home.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um when he was home, you know, he was, you know, rightly so.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Now I know at the time I was just like, dad's dressed out all the time.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um then I became Lauren.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, he was stressed out all the time.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I was like, no, I'm not doing that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I when I graduated college, I needed a job right away because I just I needed healthcare insurance at the time.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I took um, I took a job as an administrative assistant, is what it was, um, for Dun and Brad Street, and was just trying to figure out, you know, move back home with my mom.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was just trying to figure out like, what am I doing with my life?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so I did that for three years.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I did live in the city, I worked for scholastic before way before Harry Potter.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I just, I did like marketing.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: I just I knew this wasn't for me.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I needed to go back to school.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, at heart, I'm a student.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, I'm toying with going back for a PhD now, you know, like I just love school.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like just really trying to figure out like, is it law school?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: My mom's like, law school, law school.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there was a lot about what my dad did with pro bono work that um I'm what was always such a gift that he gave me.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that I was interested in.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, well, I'll go back.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll go to law school because I I did consult with like a professor of mine because I thought about going back for PhD in philosophy or and he gave me great advice.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Do you love it?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, can you eat, sleep, and breathe it?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, no, probably not.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, I think you'd be really good at brief writing and and which I didn't really even know at the time.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I went, I decided to go to law school, um, because it just seemed like, you know, like the the right um intellectual thing to do for me, to be honest.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to, but I was only gonna go and save the world, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And do pro bono work, as a lot of people want to go to law school and do.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was gonna be what I was gonna do.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and my dad, when I finally, when I told him I was gonna go to law school, he goes, Why don't you really?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Did you not see my life?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you be a journalist?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, no.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so he didn't want me to go.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was trying to really direct me otherwise.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I did go and um and I was and I actually was excited.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I was so glad to be back in school.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I left my New York apartment.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: I left my New York job.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I moved in with my mom because I was paying for law school.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I ate a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in law school, and I actually really enjoyed law school.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was, you know, I was stressed, don't get me wrong.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was um I was a perfection, you know, by by default, a lot of us are, but I really liked being back in an academic, intellectual, you know, setting.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but I was just gonna do the public interest work.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then after a first year, I did well.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you get, you know, you kind of just get um advised, should I say, on, oh, you should think about the big firms.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really interesting now that I teach law school students, like when that when that shift happens, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had an offer to work as a summer associate for to go for um to the ACLU as an intern for the ACLU or to go to one of the big New Jersey law firms.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and to this day, it's one of those like, you know, if you were like fork in the road, it was like a huge fork in the road.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but I it it it did come down to it came down to a lot of different things, I think.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um and some of it being just financially.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was paying for law school.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um my husband and I got married in my third year in law school, and I thought, I'll just try it, right?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'll then I'll go do the thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go do the public interest thing.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of that's how I got to law school.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's sort of how I did law school.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a lot of, I will say, I had support for trying different public interest things.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I did have some internships and things um during the semester doing that work.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately it was we were paying for a wedding, we had loans, we, you know, and then then it's the mortgage and the first kid and the second kid.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it was always um, so I ended up, I did like my corporate law class a lot, and I got into healthcare law, which I which was actually really interesting.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't, it wasn't like I, you know, it was just like, oh, I don't like this, but I mean I I kind of like the work that I was doing, sort of.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I took the the summer job at the you know bigger New Jersey law firm and and was a baby lawyer there for a while and stayed there, jumped to another big law in New Jersey, and then I went in-house for 14 years.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: How did you feel throughout your career?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: How did you like the work?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: How did you manage stress?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: How did you feel about your life?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Woo! How long is the show?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: How long is that?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let me try and and I I can I can ramble, so wheel me in and help me land the plane if I go too far.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Go wherever you want.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: How did I feel?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I like I said, I did like law school.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: My family would say, Did you really?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because you were like stay away from me during finals.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I remember my best friend, um, from high school was still my best friend, was getting married.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she was pregnant because she was getting married, and she had her shower, like a dual shower.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I went to it for like maybe, I don't know, an hour.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I had a tax exam.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I have a tax exam.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like she was kind of upset with me.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And in my world, I was like, I have a tax exam.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, how do people not understand?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how, like, um, so yeah, I I but I definitely like I did law school, like I left my job, you know, and so I'm glad that I was able to maintain my relationship, but my husband now was amazingly supportive and like not needy or whatever, was just there, like when I was ready to like, you know.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So law school was okay.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was afterwards that I just never, and I think I've heard a lot of your um guests kind of say, like, I just never felt like it was the right fit at the bigger, um, at the bigger firms.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I had amazing mentors.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have to say, like, I I was really fortunate to have several female mentors too in corporate law um at the firm who who show me some different ways of kind of being a little bit.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately it was, I think the work for me that just didn't feed my soul if we're gonna say that, you know.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I did do I did do um pro bono work.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I tried to fig weave that in to help me because I like because I enjoyed that and I liked the feeling that you were more immediately helping people, I guess.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then that just added to stress, right?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was, you know, working and doing all your billable hours, and then you're doing this.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um and as kids started is the the more work makes you feel a little bit more, you know, like you're filling up your soul.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: But now it's just adding to your now you're adding and exhausted and feeling like you're not doing a good job of either of them.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, so I mean, I feel like I was always really grateful for the opportunities I had.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a part of me that always had imposter syndrome, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: In these places, like, what am I doing at, you know, what am I doing here at this firm?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or what am I doing on this deal?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember I was on an ExxonMobil deal and I was the associate for the in-house council and commuting down back and forth to DC.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it in in anybody else's mind, it would, or not anybody else's, but people who were like, I really want to do corporate law and I really want to learn this.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the most amazing opportunity that you could have.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I really enjoyed working for that attorney and that in-house counsel.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: He was amazing and taught me how to be and showed me examples of how you don't have to be, you know, the jerk lawyer, right, in negotiations and deals, which was what a gift.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: But like the work, you know, I was like, oh, you know, like it just didn't, yeah, it just didn't, um it ultimately wasn't what I always wanted to do.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, so that was always a struggle, you know.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was always going to leave and do the thing, but I didn't know what the thing was, you know.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I was always like, once the kids got older, then once I had the kids, it was like, well, I worked part-time for a long time, and that was amazing that I had that opportunity.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really grateful for that because I really struggled with um what kind of mom I wanted to be, and still I wanted to have a career.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but honestly, after my son was born and he was two months premature, I was like, I'm quitting and I'm becoming a NICU nurse.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm doing.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, you don't really like blood or any of that stuff.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, but like maybe hold off six months, you know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which I did.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: But it but that I think once that's after I had my children, it got harder and harder to do the thing that didn't, you know, that didn't fulfill me because I started to see it showing up in how I showed up for them.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was kind of like at a simmer, always ready to boil over, um, is what I used to say.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, so that so what was I was really grateful.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: I worked part-time and I was really, really grateful for that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was a a real gift.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was hard.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, 50% of your pay for 60% of your billables, but I was glad to have it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So what was the point when you just realized, oh, I have to be done here?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And did that how did that coincide with finding things like meditation and laughing yoga, which we have to get into?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that didn't happen overnight at all.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I never had like um a a one thing.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I talk, I talk all I talk to my students, like I remember when I was switching firms and I was dropping my son off at daycare, and we always had a little thing where he would um, I would walk out and he would be in the window and I'd stop and we'd do a little heart every morning, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I was getting, it was at the new firm, it was in Newark, I had a longer commute, I had a client meeting, like, you know, I was just I wasn't there.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right, get in the car and I start to pull out.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I still to this day don't know what stopped me, but I was like, oh my God, I forgot to do my thing with Aiden.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think I had cell phones then.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's how old I am.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think I called, it was a flip phone for sure, or you know, um, and I I asked the teacher, like, is he okay?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is he still the widow?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, you know, they try to be, they've tried to be really helpful for the work months.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, he's he was upset, but you know, it's okay.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna calm him down.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh my god.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I pull in, go back inside.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm late, I'm gonna be late.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and the, you know, and he's and he remembered that because he wrote about it, like, oh, um, later.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember thinking, I can't keep going like this.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm with the kids, I've got to be with the kids.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm at work, I've got to, you know, be there.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have any concept of mindfulness um or meditation or anything.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: I just had this sense, like, I can't keep doing this.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: But nothing changed um at that point.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I um I went in-house.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: That that was more helpful.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So just trying to kind of find different arrangements.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that for me was a much better fit.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just I preferred not being with lawyers all the time, nothing against lawyers.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: I do find myself.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I the idea that like we're not the center of attention and we don't know, you know, all the answers in the business.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a better fit for me, was also in my hometown.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I could run over um to kids' activities.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, my boss that I had who was amazing, I could leave a message on, you know, like I was doing the Medicare part D just happened and like leave a message about the contracts.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And also, by the way, the brandnies I made last night burnt and it's so annoying.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And she could be like, oh, just go buy some and put them on a doily.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I've done.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, great, you know.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we could like do that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was that was really great.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: But and I stayed there.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was there for two years.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: I left and went to Seaton Hall, and I was a faculty researcher at um a Center for Health and Pharmaceutical Law, thinking, okay, I'll try this.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll try, you know, academia a little bit.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really interesting.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I did enjoy that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got pregnant with my daughter, who's my third, I was on bed rest.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Things didn't work out.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when I came back, it just wasn't the right fit anymore.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went back in-house because at that time, somebody, one of a good friend of mine there was going part-time, and she called and was like, We need another half of me.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, to be back in the kids' school.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um, okay, I'll do I'll do that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just, it was kind of like always shaping it around um my family.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: My husband traveled a lot and what worked for the family.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And just sort of in the back of my mind, I always say it was like a little itch that just kept getting, you know, more prominent that I.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Had to scratch, but uh, but I wasn't sure.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't know what I was gonna do.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it was when my daughter was in kindergarten, I'm like, now I'm going to figure out the thing.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I got a coach for um career coach.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that was interesting, but it didn't really help.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, maybe I'll do mediation, maybe I'll do.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um I ultimately didn't do anything.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I stayed, I stayed where I was for 14 years.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I stayed or 12 more years at the pharmaceutical company.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um the what happened for me was COVID.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So COVID was my um the forced pause in my life, in all of our lives, that that I personally needed.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it just came, you know, at a time where my children were a little bit older.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: My more my daughter was in sixth grade.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that it it gave me an opportunity to have time to really reflect.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: I had almost left uh three years before that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I almost kind of thought about leaving, and then I had sort of a health issue that really scared me.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I was super grateful to have my job at the time.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: My husband was away and traveling a lot, and I was really, really grateful to have something to take my mind off it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like every sometimes it just kept, and I had a great boss too at the time, and um, and I stayed, but it was it came to a point where um, yeah, I started doing I hated meditation and yoga before.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Tried it at in-house, you know, we had a gym, and I remember going down for a class and I got corrected in pigeon.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now I know it's adjusted, and like the meditation, my to-do list at home was here, and my to-do list, you know, for the office.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, I literally was like, when I got corrected, I was like, I'm out of here.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I like left.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: If I can't do this right up, you know, like that that perfectionism, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so I left.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it was during COVID that I read something and we weren't thinking rationally that if you could hold your breath for 15 seconds, then it meant you didn't have COVID.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we all kind of went in with a little bit of a cold.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started doing that.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when I did that, I was like, hmm, okay, I feel a little bit calmer right now.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really was, I really needed something for my anxiety at the time.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh as you know, our phones do, it was listening to me, and I just increased it a little bit, and a meditation course, you know, came through that was nothing like I had tried before.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was called the Zeba Meditation, and it was, I think it's Emily Fletcher, and she called it like meditation for lazy people.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, what is that about?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it just really the way that she taught it and delivered it, it was it just it just worked for me.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started that.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had started yoga.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: I should say, I should like circle back.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I did start taking yoga.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I um when I didn't like that, it was years later in 2019 that I started yoga, um, where I teach now at lifetime.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that was different.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was like hit plus yoga that I that was my gateway jog, as I say.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like a I like to exercise and move, you know.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm gonna take the time, like it that was that's always been my well-being thing, you know.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I but moving, you know, I don't want to slow down.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I tried that and I I loved it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, what is this?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And there was no mirrors that teach we don't really model unless, you know, we need to, um, because it's about not getting your body in the pose, but your pose in the body.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is great, this is fantastic.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember they taught us this, uh, what I now know is this um Uja'i breath and the fire breathing.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I went back, we had a standing legal meeting on Tuesdays with our group, and I was like, oh my God, we all have to learn this fire breathing.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna help us with these clients.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what's fire breathing?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I learned it in this yoga class, it's awesome.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um I got into I got into yoga that way, and then I actually signed up for yoga teacher training just to deepen my practice.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't at all, and I wasn't even telling anybody that I was doing it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it was gonna be in March.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember I had a business trip scheduled there, and I was like, oh, the first classes.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course we had the shutdown.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was during COVID then that um that I started this meditation on the lowdown.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wasn't telling my family I was doing it either, because I'm like, they're gonna think, you know, what are they gonna think?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that that it's amazing how the silence can speak to us, is really what happened for me.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I always say it was a little bit of the fear of the unknown, which kept me where I was for so long.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: That became less than the fear of staying.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, and I did a I did a program, um, a personal development program um called LifeBook that looked at like 12 categories of your life, not just the career, and that changed everything for me.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was like looking at your physical, you know, well-being, your intellectual, your emotional.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really interesting because my physical was like fine, you know, and that really informed then what I ended up doing.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you had asked me back then, I wouldn't have been able to, you know, connect all these dots.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: But looking at that more holistically, that really changed things.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, after that program, I didn't leave my job right away.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: I actually sort of not doubled down, but I was like, you know, I've been doing this kind of part-time.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I need to do this more, like really dedicate myself.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And my boss that I had loved, she had left.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, I could become the price reporting person and know all the regs and do the thing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I actually, people were like, this is great.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Carrie used to be part-time, now she's available all the time, you know, because it's COVID.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I really that was for six months I tried that.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then I did some more like kind of deep thinking.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, this is just I'm I'm doing the same thing.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so I left in September 2020.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And just stopped with no plan.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, with no plan.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't necessarily recommend that unless like it it unless I mean I was I was fortunate to be able to do that.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I didn't have a plan.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: The day after I left the yoga teacher training that they were doing a cohort, the first one online, and I didn't even I didn't even think about it twice.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: I signed, which is unlike me, I'm very like, you know, decision-making.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's hard.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what socks are we wearing today?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I just signed up and I did that.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: But the identity issue, that that was tough in that that year.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you ever heard that?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Did you feel like you know you'd had all these years where you as an attorney was essential and now I don't practice?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that mean for who I am and the value that I bring?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, exactly.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and and a lot of like, who am I?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and what will people think of me?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I'm not like, what do I have?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um what do I have to offer?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even at like some law school, not like I was going to events because it was during COVID, but I was like, who, you know, oh, you're you're when you're in-house, people all want to talk to you.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, everybody's like, oh, what was the reality?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Did anyone seem to care?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, I met like it's it's really interesting, like the stories we tell in our heads about what people are thinking, right?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so interestingly, when I, you know, as I said, I wasn't ever gonna teach.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got worried that I was gonna like forget these skills on how to, you know, how to cue um vinyasas and down dog and updog.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I just did all this stuff.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, maybe I'll just apply to teach.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I got the job, and I and I always used to joke, oh, they're really, really lack of people, you know, for COVID.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: They hired me as the yoga teacher.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh to put yourself down.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was oh I'm that's like, yeah, that was my go-to.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I've certainly done my own versions of that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think most of the- Oh yeah, it's a self-deprecating Irish, yeah, it's it's it's part of it, and and the town that I grew up in, it's it's kind of like our culture.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: But um oh, so the identity.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I so I put on LinkedIn, like, and I didn't realize I'm really I post a lot, but um, I don't I'm not good with like all the things and the features.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I just put it in my, you know, my list of jobs, not knowing that it like automatically populates.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you had to like turn that on.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: And like it populated, like, Kara.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my god, I was dying.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then like people are commenting.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh no, and there were there were nice comments, and I was like, okay.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to, I actually had to go to an event.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I went to an event for Steven Hall for the law school for my law school.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was like a fundraiser, I don't know, you know, like it was like people and the hobnobbing and the thing.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: And like people were like, oh my god, I saw your LinkedIn, that's so great.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, you know, it was really interesting, right?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: The reaction was positive, and I was so worried about it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then as I started talking about it more and saying, I'm a yoga teacher, you know, and I'm a lawyer, then then it was like all these yoga lawyer teachers, like, you know, started.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: I started finding them and and they found me.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: So then I started calling myself the laughing lounging lawyer, and people would be like, I'm I do that too.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so it that was really interesting.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me about the laughing part.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: The laughing yoga?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love laughing yoga.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I did the yoga teacher training, and I remember I was, I don't know, I was driving somewhere and I was listening to some, I don't know, a podcast or something.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: See how podcasts can change people's lives.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yay for you.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there was uh an attorney from Australia, and she was talking about how she was really, really depressed and just driving home from work, and she just was like, I can't do this anymore.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and she talks about just this this depression and she just didn't know what you know what to do.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she heard a an advertisement for a laughter yoga session in a park, and she's like, What is this?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And she said she went and it was strange and awkward and and all of the things, but she left feeling so much better, and then she signed up uh for the training, and I was like, Laughter yoga, I've never heard what is this, and I went, I went home and I Googled it, and there was a training starting, and I like, why not that?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm already, you know, I'm already the the wacky, you know, yoga lawyer.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: So let me try that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um walk me through what is a laughter yoga class like.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's so it's not what people think.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: People are like, I can't do yoga.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, how could I even do it when I'm laughing?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, it's actually not, it's more like um it's it's really about trying to find um joy and that childlike playfulness.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um and laughter is really just a uh an exhale and actually gets your diaphragm more um more involved, so like you can exhale more air.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like silly exercises that you do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you look in each other's eyes and it's fake laughter at first, and then it starts to grow into real laughter.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it is just one of the like best ways to change, you know, the chemicals uh and and uh those good chemicals.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I always said it like helped my abs at the time, the laughter yoga.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I it is tough with I I've done it with middle schoolers and lawyers, and they are equally um as tough a crowd.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: The middle schoolers were great though, actually.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's it's really just it's a way I love it because it helped me to to bring the concept of like, you know, we should take our practices seriously, our yoga, our our law, meditation, but like let's not take ourselves too seriously.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I was a very serious like lawyer, you know, like I was like, but I'm not that serious a person.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think I I you had some post where you shared, you know, you you think or you wonder, you know, if you'd had some of these tools, the meditation, the laughter yoga, when you were practicing, maybe you could have built a legal career that could have actually felt good.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, now a lot of what you do is you're bringing these tools to lawyers while they still do want to or think they want to practice, so they can build up the careers.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: But tell just tell me about like these tools that you have now.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think, and look, you know, not everyone has to practice law, it doesn't have to be the right fit for everyone.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do it for a period of time and then feel like that was great, I'm done.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's you can there's so many options and they're all about you know having the tools to do the thing that you want to do, as opposed to not being able to do the thing you think you want to do just because you don't have the people and the resources and the tools to make it work for you.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I said that wrong.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean it's such a good question.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and I know I I always said I I wish I had these practices sooner, especially the don't take yourself so seriously.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a hard one to answer now that you know, I can look back a little bit more now.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's been six years.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I always say like I've gotten a PhD in myself, like in these last six years, you know.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um yes, I wish I had these practices because I do say to my children, because they they've seen such a change, and it's helped them, you know, on not seeing me so stressed out and overwhelmed and strung out.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I say to them, I'm so sorry I didn't consciously parent you, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: I just I was just just trying to, you know, we're just trying to get by, you know, and we're all really close.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's funny because I I always say the title of my book should be um, you know, with kids and all these practices, like we're just all trying to mess our kids up a little less than we were messed up, but with the F word, it's more fun.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I wish I wish I had yeah, trying to F you up more than we were F up.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we say to our kids, like, and I think we've done that, like you know, we're just all learning a little bit more.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I wish I had them because it just would have helped me be more compassionate with myself, right?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like been the biggest gift.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then and then from that, you know, just be more, more present, more, you know, present with my kids and um and just you know, just everything.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would have just been easier.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think, you know, we're all on I, you know, that my journey was my journey.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if I hadn't had all that experience, um, and if I hadn't worked in the corporate law and done the things, you know, I don't know how the laughing yoga having laughing yoga, you know, would have gone.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it all sort of it all built on each other.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yes, I absolutely wish that I had had these practices.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm sure I just know that they would have, yeah, they would have helped me.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that I would have still done the career, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that I would have, that it would have changed that.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think having the and being able to be more intentional about things and and just to, you know, really feel more like you're making choices that are in aligned with your values, even just the values work, I think would have been hugely helpful.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that should be done in high school, really.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do you work with people, whether it's law students or or lawyers, on on developing their values and you know, developing their values and then figuring out, well, how does that fit into the career that I want?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make those shifts?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really good question.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, there's a lot of a lot of assessments out there, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: That you can do for for identifying your values.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, that's sort of how I I did mine.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and those, I think those are all really helpful to to kind of give you that time to look and think about it with my students.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they they actually create in my one class, it's foundational to this conscious contract process that we teach, which is a really relational, um, a relational contracting approach, which has actually been around since like the 60s.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I found out in doing an article that I'm working on, um, which is good and bad because I'm like, ah, nothing's changed that much.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: But uh this kind of operationalizes that.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they doing their values work is actually part of the process that they do themselves first.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then we teach them how to facilitate that with doing it with clients.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: So when like mission-driven or founders are coming together so that you know they really understand their values and not just like the company values that get thrown up on the wall, you know, that it that they're really thoughtful and intentional, and and then when they come together, that they align them.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the students that I work with, and this is similar, like I said, to what I would do with clients, is you, you know, some people think that they know their values.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're just like, I know my values, I'm good.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we just have them do exercises and different that could be some of the things online, um, or as simple as an exercise, like think of three of people that you really admire and think about what you admire about them and are those some of your values.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they identify values, you know, even just a value sheet, you know, what what resonates with you?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then really just trying to narrow them down, you know, to like five or so.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give some examples?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure a lot of people listening will be like, oh yeah, values, you know, family, health, you know, maybe money, like, you know, prestige.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are, but I think without really sitting down and digging in, you might think, you know, the the first ones that come to mind, you might realize, like, oh, actually, either those aren't my values, in fact, or they were my values and now things have changed, or they are, but boy, am I not living in alignment with them.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So can you give some examples of of values and maybe in particular values that people don't tend to think about off the bat, but then when you really dig in, you realize, oh, these are, and and maybe they're more common than people don't.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: That people don't.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I heard you kind of think I upset just the the idea is what are what are some examples of values that people may not even have on their radar?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, that's a good question.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, my I'll just tell you my values that I did, which I actually really need to to redo my values.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: My I haven't I haven't looked at mine um in a little while.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about being intentional.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and some major life events like my mom passing away and things.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: But my values have been um connection, growth, fun.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so fun is one of my values, um, consideration and integrity.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm missing one.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Connection growth.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's a C.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not gonna test you.
• 42:08
  unknown: It'll come to me.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: It'll come to me.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and when I do connection, I like that encompasses like family um and friends and things.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and when I'm making decisions, that is a big part of even when I did, even when I worked, it wasn't something that I I necessarily named in that way.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember always saying, and when my husband and I, you know, talking about getting married and things, like, I don't want to have a, I want to be present with each other.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't, you know, that's why I'm not gonna, I don't want to do the big New York law firm.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we sometimes would have activities or things that came up, especially even when our, you know, we had our kids, it was deciding like what's important, you know, and our family, um, that was always something that was important.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And something I had to keep reminding myself about, though, because I am very much um, I'm a recovering perfectionist.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still recovering.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Jordana Convino is amazing.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I adore I love her work, and um, you know, that's still an area for me for anyone who who doesn't know, and we she's gonna go check out the podcast.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: She's great.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: I could, I could like so many of the people on all your podcasts are great.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's something that I have to continually remind myself about because I can still find myself even in the work that I do that I love.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a it's different, right?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because now I'm I'm probably working more than I did even at, you know, the firm.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I but I love it.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's even a little bit more that I have to watch it because I can just like, you know, and and forget family.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so, um, but you know, something that I mean, sometimes I think what what people think is like they have to be super aspirational, like they have to be like, you know, things that are like, you know, doing better for the world.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, like I have first generation law school students sometimes.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, their values do revolve around you know financial security and stability.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's perfectly okay.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, have a discussion.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of my students said, you know, my brother's never been on a vacation or a trip, right?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so that and understanding that if you're gonna pick, you know, a certain career path, because that's what that's that's a why, right?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's just not saying like I'm doing this because you know the loans are whatever.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that can change, right?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: That can change.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that might still be your value, and maybe you go to the firm for however many years, and that can change.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think what we what I've been doing lately with students is trying to give them sort of scenarios.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when you think about, especially we've been talking a lot about rule of law and our ethical requirements and your personal values.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes, you know, they don't all line align.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and when you're in those pressure situations, when you have a partner that wants you to do something that you don't think is right or doesn't go with your values, um what it what do you do?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you feel?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: So my work that I do um with clients and my workshops and with my students and my scholarship is really around embodiment and trying to get us out of out of our, you know, our our thinking minds that we need, but really into our bodies and and and back to kind of connecting them all.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: So feeling that tension in your body, um, and then sort of can you name it, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is this a value of mind that's that's being um uh you know that that I need to think about?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love that.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love the connection between, you know, the sort of it's maybe in a way it's like the the first step.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it doesn't have to be chronology, you know, chronological, but one one of the steps is the value recognition.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the other stop step is step is listening to your body when they go together.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, sometimes I've now become so in tune with my body, I have not always been, that you know, I can feel like, oh, that's not a client I want to take on.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or that's right, right, whatever it is, I feel it.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Even if my brain doesn't yet know why, that doesn't matter.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know the feeling, and it just means not me, not for me, don't wanna.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my values, my my my husband and I a number of years ago started to shift all of our decisions to being made based on happiness.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so everything we do is based on will this make us happy?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: If yes, let's go toward it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: If not, then it's just a no.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we don't tend to think about, well, how do we make decisions?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's it based on?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: What are we driving toward?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's it supposed to feel like when it's a yes and when it's a no?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when you start to actually know how to make those decisions that feel good, everything really does start, at least my experience has been it starts to fall into place.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: The things that used to feel so tricky because you, at least for me, it was, you know, thinking, well, these are the rules and I'm supposed to do it this way and add right, right, right.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: But once once we can start to really understand for ourselves, what are the values we want and what's it supposed to feel good when it feels like, when it feels good.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's that, you know, in my yoga classes, we I always and we take a big inhale, gazing up, and then the head bows to the heart because we're so, you know, we're so in our head, right?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: That we that we forget that they're actually connected, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's the vagus nerve that runs like right through all the major, and there's um, and and there is a lot of connection.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I teach students about intuition.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that that intuition, right, that that's a good, like you need to have the data.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like this isn't none of this negates all the skills, like, you know, that that we have to have.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have to have our analytical skills.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: But like the best leaders, when they have to make decisions, like, you know, they're not doing what I usually know used to do, which is, and my husband be like, you still do, um, you know, like analyzing every which way, whatever, right?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: At some point there comes the thing where you have a knowing in your body, and it's sort of getting back to that.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm doing yeah, my scholarship right now that I'm I'm doing that I'm I'm really excited and into is um um on spiritual intelligence, and it's um it's really interesting.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: I won't go all into it because I'm still doing research, but it it really is sort of like a connecting to like something like a knowing and that that intuition, but um which I think is is something that we don't talk about, you know, for for law school students.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and there's tools and techniques that we can start to you know have that capacity.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually capacity that that we can grow.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: So um there's different practices for it, but but yeah, you named like it.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you're doing that, like that, but that feeling in your body, you know, that's where it starts.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: It actually we have these physical reactions, and then it's the thoughts, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then then we have the feelings that become the thoughts, and then it's the thoughts that if we were ruminate, irruminate.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there is this thing, like I we like to tell, you know, say to students that um my amazing mentor and um J.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Kim Wright, who uh she's actually there's an integrative law movement that I love when you're like, I'm trying to integrate and these integrative lawyers, I'm like, oh, I love it because and I didn't identify as an integrative lawyer at the time, but like everybody on your show, I'm like, that's an integrative lawyer.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is a integrative for me.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was for me too.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was for me too.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, there's been people who have been doing this work that I found like for like over 20 years.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think there was something during COVID, because I was like, where the hell were these people when I was practicing?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is exactly, I mean, that's so much of the point behind the wellness esquire.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, which I love.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Feeling of, I know that there are so many of us.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't know where everybody is.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I am quite confident that there are more lawyers who share our general values around you can build a thriving and fulfilling successful career in a way that feels healthy for you and that fits the life that you want.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that too many of us don't know how to do it, it's not actively taught, and you have to really seek it out to find you know the examples and to find the people who you can learn from it and you know, build it up the way you want to.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we're out there, we just don't know where everybody is.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually just talked to somebody, someone else was introduced to me, and she said, I just found out that there's this secret group of happy lawyers.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and every time I do get an intro, you know, and Jen connected us.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I every time I'm like, Where have you been?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it didn't take so long.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you find out, well, 20 years, what do you mean?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know that I was like that.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so so and it's funny because well, Kim Wright, um, and she's written several books, um, Lawyers as Peacemakers, Lawyers as Changemakers, Trauma Informed Law, and I co-teach with her at Quinnipiac.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: She um and she did collaborative law, like before like it was a thing and had like um uh different disciplinaries because she had like a family law practice, um, and a lawyer that he did meditation like before like this all was a thing.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: And she ended up selling her home and traveling around the world, finding lawyers who were like felt so alone but were doing things in different ways, which is I my whole I sent them your, you know, the my co-teachers.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, the students need to listen to this, they have to hear this because having examples of people that are doing it, because it's one thing for you know, me to stand up and like I left my practice, you know, like I didn't I didn't create the new law firm, which I'm amazed by people who do that.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and having examples of people who do that, like who is it, Matthew, who has the the subscription?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, we talk about that, and Gwen and um yeah, who have that other.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, this is amazing because that's what we teach.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the integrative law, um it is an international community of lawyers.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um there is a website, and um, but it's it's really when you I think one of the biggest things is when people kind of meet each other, they're like, Oh, I I feel like I found a home.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, like like for the way I want to show up in the law, you know, because before it was just like like you're kind of like, oh, it's like a world doing that, you know, like you're it just I can't I'm not explaining it in words.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: You are, and that's exactly, I mean, so you know, the what's what's coming next, if you will, is a membership community for the wellness esquire so that everyone can once you find us, yeah, then you're like, oh wait, there's there's a zillion people inside, and law firms and coaches, and you know, all uh everything you need to build the career in life that you want.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's enough of a hurdle to just recognize you want to do something differently.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have to figure out how to do it and who to do it.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I what I found is the people in who are doing this work and who uh you know have changed so much are so giving of their time.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, like it's you know, wanting to help.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the different people have always been like, oh, we'd love to talk to your students, you know, um, just so generous of their time.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just so your listeners who might be interested know, the really exciting thing that's happening in this area, so a lot of people have been working on this and working on, you know, my big focus right now has been on law schools and and working on bringing, you know, these things to law schools.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Nishot Reuter, who's the general counsel for TED, um, if you don't know of TED Law now, it's like this initiative that that Ted that she's done at TED to really help bring training to lawyers and hopefully eventually to law schools, excuse me, that sort of reflects more of what we're talking about, right?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like we get trained in law school in one way, that that thinking, that great, you know, analytical thinking that we need.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: But like then you get into law out of law school and it's kind of like, I don't know anything.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and I'm like having this whole thing where like, I'm not like what's going on?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: My I don't have, I don't trust my judgment.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to collaborate with people.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, you know, and now with AI, um, and I think a lot of schools, my schools are doing a much better job at the ones that I go that at getting more experiential classes, so that um, but I think Ted is doing a really great job of bringing like a lot of the different pieces that have been out there that people have been working on for years, on trying to bring a more humanistic and holistic way of practicing, right?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're doing a great go to the TED Law website and and they're really focused on um yeah, on professional identity and values, on collaboration, on cultural competence and AI.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing amazing stuff and really reflective stuff, right?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna assume that you know all the law, like it's not about the love, and also using like the platform that they use, like inspired that make you successful and what help for you define success because it's it's it's so much more than exactly, exactly.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and creativity, like you know, like students when you let them be creative because they create these touchstones, like they don't just write their values down, they like a lot of them get very creative in this whole document that they have.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and when you give them permission to bring that creativity, it's amazing.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that that helps with problem solving skills.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: That I love doing that with students because I I've talked to law students who are already afraid of losing themselves.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which is very upsetting to hear.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not surprising, yeah.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, I hear it, I hear it a lot from students.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it and it happened to me, right?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: We go to law school and we think we want the one thing.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and then, you know, we uh even if we have the good mentors, and um it's I think it's it's inter integrating, right?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the word, it's really integrating um these reflective practices into the curriculum so that you know students have an opportunity to really sort of reflect on the decision decisions they're making and um and and just bring a more, you know, uh train the whole person is is really kind of Quinni PX um motto is is train the whole person because you're you're dealing with the whole client too, right?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just um the whole person, yeah.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well and I I think just getting across the idea that there's actually no one right way to practice law.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if you think that, then you're not serving your client well because your clients are different, they're different, whether it's an individual or a business, they have different things, they have different values, they have different standards, priorities, expectations, all of the things.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: No one lawyer is gonna be the right lawyer for all of the that's great, yeah.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you one of the most freeing things for me that I think has made me a better and better lawyer has been recognizing that I don't want to be the lawyer for everybody.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what kind of lawyer do I want to be?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I continue to build my firm in a way that feels exactly right for me?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that I I heard someone say, I wish I remembered who, I loved this, that they they focus on attracting the right clients and and they they focus on building a culture such that the right clients are they attract the right clients and they repel the wrong clients.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that intuition of like, yeah, you want to repel the wrong ones.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay if you're so authentic that some people are just kind of really put off by you.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's somebody else out there for you.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, I love that.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's a little um to build your firm, to build your business, I think that that is also missing in law schools.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: I that the entrepreneurship aspect of it, and we can learn so much from you know, social enterprise and entrepreneurs and um, but when you when you were talking about that, you know, that attracting the right clients and stuff, it kind of goes back, goes back to those values, right?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I always like talk about how like for a little while, you know, you can you can live out, you know, with a crooked spine, right?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you think about values and integrity like that, you know, like you can do it.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just over time, right?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: It then it starts to really wear on you, right?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't want to have to go for that like disc surgery.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so when you're able to build a your business, build your practice that way, um, yeah, it just, you know, when you where you're in your in alignment, it's just, you know, it serves you and the client better.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that can be, as you said, different for different people because everybody has their different values, you know.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I always I tell students, like when I was at the firm, there was a partner who loved SEC work.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, loved SEC work, loved it, didn't want to talk about anything else.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: It it just it lit him up.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it fed his soul.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and at his table, you know, whatever.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: But um, it doesn't mean that you, you know, like you can find the things, right?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: And your talents and your skills.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it takes time.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh, you know, if if if SEC isn't like right away light you up, you might take a little time or a little self-reflection to like think about what that is.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: And as you say, to have examples, right?
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're kind of just fed you you do well, you go to the big firm, or you you're, you know, you you clerk, um, you know, and and understanding that, you know, I I absolutely love my law school, and law schools are a business too.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to like all take it with a grain of salt, like the messaging.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, again, I think law schools are doing a better job.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know, you know, the class that I teach, we talk all about this.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's not somebody had said, oh, the yoga class.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, no, we do a lot.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's great.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think yoga is part, can be part of leadership too, but we do a lot more.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's really about um, yeah, about actually using tools, thinking about tools for self-leadership and then for leadership of others.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the best, um one of my students said, in every other, in every law school class, we learn how to interpret the law.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: But in this class, I learned how to interpret myself, and that was the best gift.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I'm done.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and I was like, you did that.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I, you know, I'm literally just a guide.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like if they don't want to show up and do the work, and they all come sometimes.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: I ask, you know, oh, why'd you take the class?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Just because, you know, it's a one credit or you know, fitting your schedule, and that's cool too.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm always amazed at how much they they put into it.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're eager for it, you know, they're they're eager to have this, to be just have basically somebody say, like, this is okay to think about these things too, and to share it with each other.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, like what you're building in this community of lawyers, and when lawyers want to talk about that in the classroom, when I we start each class, I start my yoga classes, I start, I'm on uh leadership for um the mindfulness and law society and the institute for well-being and law, and I start all my meetings with like a centering, like we just take a couple inhales and we just sit, it's just just to be.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then we go around and we're just check in.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I usually do, like, what's your internal weather?
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I've had students say, like, I've never like, we don't do that in any class.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't sometimes know, I never met this person, but now I know, like, you know, that they came in.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: We had a student one time, he said, you know, my internal body said, you know, like and it's raining out, and it's kind of nice, like it's just a little rain and it's summer, and it kind of feels fun to be in the rain.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden it starts pouring rain and you're soaked to your underwear, and it's not fun anymore.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, Oh, yeah, oh, dude, we get you.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we know what we know how you're coming in class, right?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: We understand what's going on.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it takes not that much time.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have 25 students, but we do it quickly, and it just lets them connect to each other, right?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: And to see that, like, and it's funny because I have to actually say them, it's okay to have a sunny day too, because sometimes they're like, I don't know, I'm kind of sunny today.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that's good.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay too.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like law school can be great too.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the it's amazing that you do that and you're create, you're sort of you're giving permission to people to to feel whatever it is that they're feeling and for other people to know that.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: So many of us, I spent many years this way.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: I am no longer, um, you know, just wanting to, you know, put on a show of, you know, I'm everything is okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's falling apart, isn't falling apart.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fine.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: And look, there are times when, you know, it's not the right setting, but I a lot of the time it's fine.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually can get to the result better if everybody just understands where people are coming from.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a person who needs to be able to just not take over the meeting with your personal life, but just have people know what's going on with you, and you're not in an environment where that's okay, it's okay to recognize you're in the wrong environment and you need to look for somewhere where you can say, here's what's going on.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just needed to let you know, and now we can get on to business.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Those places exist.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it's it's interesting because you know, people sometimes I think would be like, Oh, why would you do that?
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, like you're I we don't have time.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or and I always I always tie these into to legal skills as well, right?
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: When you're sitting with the client, um, you know, you need you you want to make a connection, right?
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the more the AI takes over things, like these human skills, like, you know, that these are gonna really matter.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: Presence and um yeah, and the ability to like really connect with somebody and and to see the whole person.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's not even getting into trauma informed law to like really understand, like, you know, what happened to you, you know, the great book by Oprah Winfrey.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: So many of my client calls start with my clients telling me what's going on in their personal lives.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then often, you know, it just comes in, you know, in in different parts of our conversation.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: And often that's how I found find out about other pieces that's going on in their business that I do need to know about.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because they just feel so comfortable telling me everything and not having such a filter on and being so, you know, professional, quote unquote.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they just feel comfortable saying whatever it is, and then stuff falls out of their mouth, and I can say, wait, we actually need to talk about that one.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on, back up.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because everything's, you know, it we can talk about anything.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the clients.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're a human talking to another human.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you know, you've got, you know, they're coming to you for advice and things, and and and I'm sure you'll get that, but to make that connection on, you know, like I mean when you go to the doctor, right?
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a doctor that's like, hey, you know, how how are you doing?
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: How are you feeling?
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: versus like, okay, all right, what did you say?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: It was your shoulder that hurt, you know, it it's making that connection.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that connection um can really help.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and then there's like little tools that you know to teach them to to do that.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think these are essential skills.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna say the the S word, the soft skills.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you would like to share?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh goodness.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um other than your entire course.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, I mean, I I'm really um there's there's just there's a lot of resources, I think, out there now for for people.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, the the Institute for Well-Bing in Law, I'll do a plug for them.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's that that's full of great resources.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, I'm just thrilled.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really it's just amazing to meet, you know, and I'll just tell people like in a million years, if somebody had said to me, I mean, even six years ago, if somebody had said, you know, oh, you'd be going around to all these different conferences and different, you know, bar associations and in front of professors and stuff, and like, you know, popping on your red nose to get people to lighten up, to to level up and you know, doing this, I would have been like, you are insane.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm never gonna do that.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody will take me seriously.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's come to the point where I'm just like, yeah, this is sort of this was like the natural progression.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when you can really open up, right, to um, you know, just to your authenticity more.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think having these conversations, because I feel like it's hard sometimes, like the authenticity word, like I wouldn't have, you know, back then.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I think having these conversations is what allows people to be like, oh, there are people out there.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and by the way, I do this that um it's just a little prop to tell help people to remember to not take their themselves too seriously.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also, uh, and I got this from um Norreen Brahman from the New Jersey Lawyers uh lawyers assistance program, who when I told people I was a laughter lawyer, they're like, you have to meet her.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you put this in your car on your dashboard, and when you get in a like the road rage or we call it you know the New Jersey salute, you can pop it on and you just give a wave.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it really actually de-escalates you.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm all about nervous system regulation.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it actually I've had people laugh when I've done it.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I have used it in traffic.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to see that and not laugh.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you're only you know putting good things out in the world if you pop that on.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, that's right.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: If we were together, I'd be I'd be giving you one because I I hand them out.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, no, but uh just uh a huge thank you for the work that you're doing for bringing this community together.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's such an honor to to be here and just blab away.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: I hope I made some sense.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: You made so much sense, and I'm so thrilled that Jen connected us, and I'm so I'm I'm grateful for you.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful, you know, everyone who chooses to share, spend their time and their energy with me for the benefit of every everybody who listens.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because when we all show up with like this, people feel so much less alone, and that's essential.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so thank you for the work that you do.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for hanging out with me and sharing your story and and making more people laugh and understand how critical the laughter part is from you know the the performance side of what we do, it all comes together.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you are your gift.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, this podcast gift, and there's so many people doing these amazing gifts.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've been using that really a lot.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: We just gotta let everybody know we exist.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the the supporting other people.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when you know Jen is great with that, like the way that people, you know, really help each other.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: We all just want everybody to know about each other.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're all doing this together, we're all delight, we're it's a group of amazing people, and and we're just getting bigger.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So much to come.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's an expression in yoga that I love that's you know, when you find something that makes you feel whole or healed, it's your obligation to share it with the world.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I feel like that's what that's what kind of drives it, you know.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: People, it's just it's just, you know, hey, this this is what kind of worked for me.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think because so many people, you know, when I started the wellness esquire was during COVID when you know networking turned to LinkedIn, and I started to find on LinkedIn, you know, lawyers that were figuring it out in ways that worked for them.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept finding that, you know, lawyer after lawyer, those who were feeling more fulfilled and healthy and and felt good about what they had going on at the time first had to go through some sort of lonely shit hitting the fan experience.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, well, maybe there's a better way.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we don't all have to have a shit hitting the fan experience first and feel like it's just us.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: What if we help people avoid that to the extent possible and help people know that they're they're sure, like the there's, you know, we all have unique details of of our personal stories, but common theme.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much commonality of what everyone's experiencing, and no one's alone.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to, when I would start to bring people together, I would watch people realize oh my God, it's not just me.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not the only one with a health situation, which was my history, uh, you know, a mental health thing, an emotional thing, a trauma thing, an imposter syndrome thing, a colossal, you know, mistake, like failure, whatever.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: No one's gone through something so unique that none of us can relate.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I, as we would realize we're not alone, people would start to show up better and more themselves and with you know, sparkles in their eyes.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I think because so many of us who have found a way of working and living that feels good, we've all had to go through it in a way that didn't feel good.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we just want to say, like, hey, I get it, I get it, I get it.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a better way, and let let let us all help you.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and just modeling, I think, is is great too, because then it just shows different choices, right?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because there's no one way to do it.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And just the more examples there, the more you can say, Oh, I didn't I like that piece, I like that piece, I like that piece.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bundle this together, make it work for me.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like to tell students, you know, in-house we were always taught like, think outside the box, think outside the box.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I love like meetings, people like they're not they're making their own shapes, you know, like it's not just thinking outside the box, like they're they're law firms, and and when students hear, I see it in students, it's like they almost kind of exhale, like, oh, there's all these different ways.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_02: They might still even just planting seeds.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if down the line, you know, the shit hits the fan, they might be like, oh, there's something, and not have to do like 12 years of meming.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I finally left my practice, my friends were like, Oh my god, finally, you've been saying this for 10 years.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, they'll have ideas of like what can something else look like.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite moments was um a couple of months ago, I was I had a call with a actually, I think she was a it was a college student thinking about law school, not even law school yet.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but lots of lawyers in her family, and she, you know, felt like, oh, I know what this looks like.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I turned on the Zoom and I was sitting in a tree house in the jungle.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, What?
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: How can you be a lawyer sitting in a little bit?
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so her response was like, Oh my god, it's possible to be a lawyer sitting in a treehouse in the jungle by the beach.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's that is not an approach that I thought was available to someone with that kind of expertise and career.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, and what class do you take to sit in the treehouse in the jungle to be a lawyer?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's your path or not, who cares?
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: The point is there you don't have to sit in an office air conditioned, freezing, you know, wearing clothes that don't feel good and you're just uncomfortable.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can if you want to, but if you don't want to, you know, the sky's the limit.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So great.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to listen to the the not mine, but the other podcasts.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've been loving, loving listening to them.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm having a blast recording them, and I'm I'm I really am.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a blast, and I'm grateful to have you now part of the crew.
• 1:15:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this has been so much fun.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love your energy.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_02: It just it's great when people have energy that comes through a screen like that.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So what a treat.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you so much.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for all you're doing.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe right now.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to know you.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.