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How We Hear God's Voice: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon podcast, the First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ On our podcast,
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the goal is not just to share the sermons we've preached, but
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to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're learning and
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what God is doing in US and in our community.
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Good morning. Good morning, trying to read
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your writing. Yeah, that's, that's the moral
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of it. Yeah.
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We're having some technical difficulties this morning, which
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we're shifting up a little bit the way that we normally record
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the podcast, but I'm stubborn enough that I'm going to make it
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happen one way or another. I'll agree, stubborn.
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Here we are, here we are. So how did it feel to creature
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the longest sermon ever? I don't, I don't think it was
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the long if you take out the bonus prayer, I don't think it
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was, but it it definitely didn't feel as long as I think my
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longest 1 was like I think I think I hit 32 with one of them.
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In just in the preaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So this is definitely 2nd place. But I it felt to me at least
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flow wise from preaching, I don't know, from receiving rock
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wise, it felt like 2023 minutes. Yeah, it didn't.
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It didn't feel long. Yeah, it's just fine because the
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whole service ended up going like an hour and 20 an hour and
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25 minutes by the time we. Yeah.
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Wrapped up and dismissed him. But no, this one definitely felt
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more natural more. I don't know, I was just so
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comfortable with the material that God had provided me that I
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knew all the pieces very well enough.
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So then once I was getting them in order, it was, yeah, it just
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flowed in my head and and made it easier that I didn't need to
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be as stuck to paper as I normally.
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You mentioned in your sermon that there are a variety of
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reasons why people may not want to hear from God.
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Tell me more about that. What are what are some of the
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reasons people may not want to hear about hear from God?
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Yeah, and I don't think it's an explicitly don't want to hear
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from God like in their own in their own mind, fear that they'd
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have to change something they don't want to change.
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I like, I was talking to someone I think yesterday about the
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American Dream and it's like you post up shop in one house and
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like make that your mini Kingdom and you work out of that home
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base. And we were talking about the
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church's legal stuff and potentially having to move
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depending on how things go. And me and Rebecca being very
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comfortable with that and trusting God help provide what
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we need in in each and every season.
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And yeah, it was like, well, for most people, they don't consider
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God leading them to move housing or job or anything.
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It's like, I worked very hard to set up this and then I continue
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in this. And so I think even if it's not
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in all areas, there are some big areas in life that were like, I
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don't even want to ask God if he wants to make a change or leave
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in a different direction because of all that it would entail and
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include. And I'm getting comfortable and
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whatever it might be. And so I think that can be a
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really big play in it. And also like similar, like I
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said when I was wrestling with things like I want to know the
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fruit of what he's calling me to do so I can balance the
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discomfort or the awkwardness or embarrassment that I would
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potentially experience due to my faithfulness.
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The. The ROI, right, the return on
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the investment. Yeah, yeah.
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Well, here's an example that's not biblical at all is like,
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what if hypothetically God had called someone around the time
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of Jesus's arrest to do their best rooster crow impression and
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just off the rooftop and I'm like, God, this is dumb, silly
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thing. Why am I doing this in the
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middle of nowhere? And, you know, maybe Peter
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didn't see the rooster crow, but he heard the third one and it
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was just God leading someone to make a fool of himself.
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And yet it was to leave that strong impression on Peter.
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I don't believe that's what happened, making that very
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clear. But it's the why would God want
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me to crow like a rooster? And we don't know what he's
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using it for. And I don't think God's asking
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us to make animal noises all the time.
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But that's a very silly, embarrassing thing that we could
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none of none of us want to do. Yeah, I think sometimes we don't
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actually want to hear God speak. We just want the answer.
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Like we we want to know what the next step is, but we don't
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actually want the level of relationship that's necessary
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for it to actually be God. And we want him to speak into
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what we want to hear about, not what he wants to say to us.
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But hey, God, I'm going to pick the topic.
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I'm going to give you a yes. No, You get back to me on that.
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Not a Lord. What do you want to say to your
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servant? Yeah.
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Kind of like elementary school kids pass notes.
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Do you like me? Check.
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Yes. No.
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It's like, yeah, that that's what we want God to be.
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We don't actually want the relationship where that's going
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to require something of us to live in that kind of
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relationship to maintain that kind of relationship.
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There's an obligation then if we do hear from God, that we're
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then responsible for responding to it, right?
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And so lots of reasons why we might not want to hear from God,
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but doesn't change the fact that he is still speaking, right?
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And he's speaking sometimes even when we're not listening.
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But I wondered, you know, as we're going through this series,
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any recent examples you could give of hearing from about just
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like normal life, kind of that's really what we're getting at
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when we talk in this whole series about hearing the voice
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of God, right? It's not about getting to a
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point where you figured out the formula of how you actually hear
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the audible voice of God whispering in your ear or
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yelling in your ear, whatever, right?
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It's about how do we know that God is communicating to us so
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that we can respond to what he's doing?
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Yeah. So I don't think we have to have
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a distinction there, so. So well.
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From there go. That that's not that's not
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sermon prepping because through this sermon it was like, I think
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I talked to you about this like a month ago, like I felt like I
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had pieces to a sermon that goes into the series, but I didn't
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know exactly where God was leading and where I thought it
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was originally going to go. Vietnamese landmines we'll talk
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about another time is not where we ended up, but God provided it
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passion a very clear direction for the sermon and so was in
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communication with you during that and then even all the way
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down to the last minute. The morning of the sermon is
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just waking up trying to be in his presence before preaching
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about being in his presence and praying and in my notes.
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I have a whole section about contacting my cousin, like my
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printed out notes that were at the pulpit, contacting my cousin
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in Arizona, not my hippie cousin in the mountains of California.
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To use the whole like you have a cell phone, we can pray, you
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could write letters if you're old fashioned Bible, the word
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God has provided us. And but I was going to have a
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separate story that I didn't know where to fit in.
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So I just kind of gave up on it about how to like, just 'cause I
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don't get responses doesn't mean that I believe the other person
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no longer can speak or no longer wants to communicate with me
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even. And so that morning I was
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praying. I was like, oh, my cousin
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Tanner, There you go. There's both examples kind of
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all compiled into one person and one kind of connection point.
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And so yeah, that wasn't in my notes, but but God provided that
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and LED me into that. And even while I was the night
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before working with Tim on slides, and when those slides
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come up, as I'm going through it, there's little pieces that
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just God was either a part that needed to be cut off or a part
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that I needed to rearrange. But it was like for me, it
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clicked. It wasn't like that.
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Oh, I'm trying to make it fit. Just like as I'm going, it's
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like, oh, this needs to go in there.
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And it just doesn't feel like me coming up with that and more
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like daily life. There's been a couple times
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lately where I'm driving and I just feel like God's put a
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person on my heart that I need to communicate with.
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And so I call them from the car. Sometimes the answer, sometimes
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they don't. And sometimes it leads to
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further discussions. And then we see the fruit of
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that. But just being open to instead
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of just getting distracted with whatever fun songs I'd like,
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it's like praying or doing worship music.
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And then once I especially when it's again, like I mentioned in
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the sermon, he pesters me with things that wouldn't naturally
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come to mind. So it's not like the Oh, I've
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been meaning to talk to them for a while.
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It's like random person out of the blue I haven't talked to in
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eight months. And it's like, OK, God, that's
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random. And the song doesn't make me
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think of them where I'm driving doesn't make me think of them or
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might be something here. And so, so when we're at
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Passion, I always try and equip our college kids that go with us
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with resources that they can use after our time together at
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Passion. And Passion has a lot of books
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and Bibles available that are usually written by the speakers.
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And usually it's like, I'll pray and see if there's one or two
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that stick out or whatever. And this time it was the very
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first day before we heard a single preacher, before we
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started worship. I was just flipping through them
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and feeling like I just need to get certain read, like he was
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already putting certain people in my heart with certain
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resources. And one of our kids is new to
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the faith, new to church only in the past year.
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And he I asked him, I was like, do you have a Bible?
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And he was like, no, I just been using the Bible app ESV.
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And I was like, that's great. Awesome.
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So I was like, they have ESV ones.
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Let me get him a good Bible and couple others.
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And so I ended up buying 10 resources and we had eight kids
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with us and I was like, whatever, these extra ones, I'll
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just have really good resources in my office that I can hand out
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at later times to whoever. And so praying over those, I
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literally come back to the seats with two two bag full of books
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before it even starts. As one does when they're at a
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conference. Yeah, which I'm not a I'm not a
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big even when we go to new room like I I maybe grab 3 or 4 and
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that's at the end after I've been encouraged and inspired by
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speakers and convince myself I'm going to read the books at some
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point. And so we get back to the Airbnb
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that night and I have three books for three people, one of
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them being the Bible and I have one more for a person, but felt
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like I wasn't supposed to give it to them yet.
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So I give the the first 3. There's the Bible book about
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being a godly man, another one about daily worship.
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And the last one is called Don't Look Back by Christine Kane.
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And it was, it was for a friend of someone that was originally
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going to go with us and ask if their friend could tag along and
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they're tied in with Delanco and stuff like that.
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And I was like, I trust this person.
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And so they were able to join us.
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And later that night, we were just up talking, the two of us,
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a couple others in in the room. But we were, you know, talking,
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getting to know each other and just felt like God was like,
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this is the time to share. And it kind of went well with
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her testimony. And at the end of the
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conference, the author ended up being her favorite speaker of
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the entire time. And I was like, OK, it's good
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confirmation. And then I'm left with six books
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now. And at one point I was back, we
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were eating about everyone else left to go save us spots.
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I was with two of our students, and one of them I knew had been
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dealing with anxiety. And three of the books are
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specifically about anxiety and worry.
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And for whatever reason, I just felt like God put it on my heart
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that this book about viewing God is the perfect father is what he
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wanted. We're like, my human instincts
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would be like one of the ones about anxiety and just trusted
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it and and they seem to receive it like they knew why God wanted
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that for them instead. And then another one, I was
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like, I feel like one of these three books could be really good
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for you. The ones about anxiety.
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And immediately their eyes locked on this one because it it
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connected with a musical artist that they enjoy and wasn't
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written by them, but just like the font and the word connected
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them with an artist. I was like, however, God wants
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to draw you to actually reading the book and, you know, spending
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some time with him. And so that one was down.
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And now I'm down to four and we get to one of our last family
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meetings and one of them was a devotional.
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I actually had that to the side. And I hold up these three books
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and I'm like, I'm sorry, God hasn't like provided 1
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specifically on my heart for either of you. 2 And in my mind,
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I didn't think either of them dealt with anxiety regularly.
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And so I held them up. I was like, if you want any of
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these, you're, you're more than welcome to it.
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And they looked at each other like in shock.
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And they're like, we were just talking about this.
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That one's mine and that one's mine.
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And they both took the specific books that that they wanted.
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And I was like, wow, God, God's going far before us on these
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matters. And so I was left with two.
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And I was like, OK, I got two more for my library and can
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equip our youth or young adults with at some point.
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And I'm on the plane. They're in my backpack, and I'm
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sitting next to this kid that was that from Passion.
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I could tell by his hoodie. And he's watching the series
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finale of Stranger Things. And I'm exhausted.
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Yes. I'm old.
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I'm getting old. Yeah.
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And so I was like, I'm just going to sleep.
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I don't want to talk about Passion.
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I don't want to talk about Stranger Things.
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I'm asleep, but it's a long flight from Dallas.
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And so I wake up and ask him about Stranger Things.
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We get talk and ask him about Passion, Start hearing about his
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testimony. And at the end we're we're
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landing. And I just felt like I was
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supposed to give him the devotional.
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And so I was like, hey, God's put it on my heart to to give
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you this devotional. Is that something that you think
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you'd be interested in actually read?
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And he was like, Are you sure? Like, yeah, I'll read it.
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I'll definitely read it. And I was like, yeah, done.
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Like he knew you wanted it and needed it.
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And so and I got home and and Kirsten's there and I'm like, I
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didn't get anything for Kirsten. I feel so bad, let me just play
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it off if you had. One more.
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Yeah, one more book. And so let me play it off.
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And so I was like, here, I got you this book from Passion and
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it's Louis Giglio's Don't let the enemy have a seat at your
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table. She's like, oh, thanks.
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And I was like, Yep, definitely, definitely was thinking to you
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on that, on that one. And then she goes, you know, I
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think Karen Alexander was talking to me about this book
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and like doing the devotional and I was thinking about getting
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like the main book because then it had like more of the material
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revolving around it. And I was like, OK, God, look at
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that. Just like wind it up
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back-to-back. And yeah, So that that was just
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incredible where every single one he had just lined up who the
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book was. Now, when will they read it?
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Will they read the books or will they just be impacted by how God
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used the individual gifting? I think that's where hearing God
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and trying to be faithful can be annoying from a human standpoint
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of like we assume, oh, God wanted me to give them this
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thing, now they're going to use it as I anticipate them to use
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it. And that's not always the case.
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Sometimes he wants to use it in a different way than we might
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anticipate, but it's the faithfulness and allowing him to
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use it how He wishes. And sometimes it's just about
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what he's doing in US, right? And to.
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Grow our confidence in being. Faithful will you be faithful to
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do? And for sure, buying a pile of
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books might not seem like any big deal.
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Yeah. So in your preparation, anything
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that you came across that you wanted to talk about or wanted
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to talk more about but didn't feel like it was the right
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sermon or the right place or. Yeah, that that that was a
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harder part in prep because you're way more series minded
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when you preach and prep and I'm just.
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Which is why I preach in series. I recognize there's no way I can
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get it all out in one. Sermon Yeah.
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And so I was trying to make sure that I stayed locked in on what
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God was leading me to and not trying to cover the whole
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picture of what it looks like to, yeah, hear and, and discern
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and, and follow through and that kind of stuff.
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And so there was multiple times where I just texted you.
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I was like, this is really good, but it's not for this sermon.
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So if you want to use it in the sermon series, go nuts.
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Yeah. And when you're talking about,
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you know, preaching from a passage that is pivotal not just
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in Israel's life but in Moses life specifically, like that
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opens up the whole of his life. And it's like.
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Yeah. Well, what and Moses being
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pivotal to the faith, right? Like as a whole is that there's
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so much, if not too much to possibly get into or connect in,
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which was again, really hard because like I could have had us
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read chapters 3 and 4 of Exodus as the scripture reading.
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But yeah, so one of the things that that stood out to me and I
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think is I ended up touching on it in the youth group because of
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weather and stuff that we want to move some things around.
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And I think in our day and age and in our specific culture in
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this time, people like to use Scripture to warrant how they
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want to see things done in the world or they'll argue, well,
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Jesus said this, so we have to go and do this if Jesus.
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Told the rich young ruler to go sell everything he had.
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Then we should all sell all of our belongings, whatever it may
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be. Or if he says help the least of
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these, then I'm going to choose who the least of these are and
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I'm going to choose what helping them looks like.
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And that's what Jesus wants. And I think what's so pivotal
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with this series is there's a million issues in the world.
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And I think a lot of times we also hear that, yeah, that's
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bad, but what about this? But what about this?
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And you just go down this rabbit hole of think of all these other
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horrible things. Why are you focused on this
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horrible thing? And we tried to like measure
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which is more horrible, which deserves more of our time or
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effort and all that kind of stuff.
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We're thinking in Moses of like God was upset that his people
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were enslaved and being treated the way that they were in
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suffering. Moses was upset that Pete, his
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people were enslaved and suffering.
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Moses in his human anger and reaction and how he decided to
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handle a specific situation involved killing one of the
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Egyptians that were beating one of the Hebrews, the Israelites.
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And it's like. OK, God also didn't like that
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they were hurting the Israelites.
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You killed 11 down out of how many?
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And the institution is still running and going and enslaving
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the people and they're still going to get beaten out, just by
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a different Egyptian. But one could argue and say,
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well, he did something towards the injustice that he saw.
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But when he even after that, he goes away for how many years,
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Scott? Yeah, 40 years. 40 years people
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could view be like you accomplished nothing for saving
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your people and solving the injustice of that you lazy
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shepherd man or whatever. Ran away hiding.
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You coward. And we would view that as
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unfruitful season versus a potential waiting time where his
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character could be worked on and prepare him for what God was
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going to call him next, which was the complete liberation of
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the Israelites in God's ways, in God's timing.
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And it was successful even though Moses was like, not me, I
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don't know how this is going to happen.
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Why would Pharaoh listen to me? I like, how is this going to
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work out? All of the questions he has,
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because he couldn't imagine how this was going to work out.
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And so for me, it was a we can try and do good sometimes even
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for God, and we're limited on the impact that we can have
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where if we listen to what God wants to use us for, he's able
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to use it for so much more. Yeah, it.
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It's the difference between doing things for God and doing
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things with God, as somebody wrote in a book.
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Scott's book is coming out. No, no, no.
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I yeah. And I think that's something
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that we in the church, outside of the church, looking into the
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church different. I mean, I don't know how
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contemporary examples, I don't know.
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Did you hear about the Minnesota church?
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Yeah, Yeah. So there are protesters coming
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into church during a service screaming about why aren't you
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doing this? If you care about what you say
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you care about from scripture, and we'll nitpick whatever
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scriptures we want, that we want you to act in the way we want
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you to act, then you shouldn't be worshipping God and focusing
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on what God wants of you. You need to be living out your
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faith the way we want you to live out your faith.
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And then don't do the other things your faith calls you to
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do. And I think that really comes
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down to this, how we're seeing our culture not only clash with
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the church, but also I think seeing our culture clash within
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the church as well, the big C church.
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And so that's where like I, I was talking with people about
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like, yeah, you can have, you know, why aren't you feeding?
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You see a homeless person on the ground and feeding the one.
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Yes. And within our congregation, God
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put it on their hearts to take over the food pantry in the
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community and step up and how many families that's regularly
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helped where they could have easily been like that seems too
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complicated. Now I'm going to keep which is
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still good to do in in addition, but saying right to have like
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some granola bars in our car. And when I go into Philly every
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three months, I can give one out at the guy that's on the other
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side of the Ben Franklin Bridge. And that's good enough because
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God, I don't feel like figuring out what starting a food pantry
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and working with others to do that multiple times a week.
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The the time that's required of that.
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It would be easier to keep granola bars in my car and we
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can do both. But I'm saying the one that God
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has LED them to has been far more fruitful than what they
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could have been like. Let me negotiate with you, God,
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on what could accomplish the same kind of thing.
24:11
That's why I think in our ministry and in the future
24:17
projection of this church, we are seeing more and more of God
24:21
leading things that may seem small, but we're seeing a lot of
24:27
fruit come from them as He is the one steering the ship in
24:32
many more areas. People in the pews up, not just
24:38
paint staff down, Yeah. It's a drastically different way
24:42
to approach church then maybe the American church painting
24:47
with broad strokes, you know, has operated in the past few
24:52
decades where it's different to to go to church leadership and
24:57
say, Hey, I think God's leading me towards this, Explore that
25:03
together, pray about that together, confirm that and
25:06
release someone to to start a new ministry, to do ministry,
25:10
whatever it might be versus hey, pastor, I think our church needs
25:17
to do this. And by our church, it always
25:21
seems to mean someone. Else yeah.
25:23
Within the church. I have the idea now someone else
25:26
can make it happen. Yeah.
25:28
So I think that is really, really key to what God's doing
25:34
in our midst and, and the ways we're seeing him show up and
25:38
seeing people begin to, to gain some confidence in responding to
25:42
that voice because they're learning more and more how to
25:45
recognize who who's speaking. And we're going to get into that
25:50
a little bit more in a couple weeks when we talk about why God
25:53
speaks to us. So it's not just, it's not just
25:57
for the sake of new ministries, it's not just for the sake of
26:01
what he's doing in us there. There's, there are several
26:04
reasons I think God speaks to us.
26:06
And so understanding is keeping all of them in mind is important
26:10
as we figure out what it means to hear from God today.
26:15
Yeah. Well, that's our conversation
26:16
for today, but that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
26:20
We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
26:23
To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
26:25
or to join the conversation, you can head over to
26:29
fumccollingswood.org/podcast. Thanks for being part of this
26:34
conversation.