Latest / National Immigration Law Center Freedom to Thrive Podcast / Ep. #104: The Undocumented Americans | Karla Cornejo-Villavicencio

Transcript

Ep. #104: The Undocumented Americans | Karla Cornejo-Villavicencio · National Immigration Law Center Freedom to Thrive Podcast

• 0:00
  My grandfather, Valentin, was a storyteller in the oral tradition decades ago in Jalisco, Mexico.
• 0:05
  People would come from across the rancho to gather around and hear his epic
• 0:09
  tales, which were sometimes so long they would go late into the night and continue the next day.
• 0:14
  I like to imagine my abuelo, Valentin, captivating his audience,
• 0:18
  telling his cuentos, and passing down history across generations.
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  Immigrants and children of immigrants in our nation are an important part of
• 0:26
  this country's history.
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  By audaciously sharing our experiences and perspectives, we ensure that our
• 0:32
  narratives are shaped and told not by others, but by us.
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  And in telling our stories, we're adding to the tradition for future generations
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  of storytellers to build upon.
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  Storytellers who, like my abuelo Valentin, ensure that our histories are heard and remembered.
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  That's also the purpose of this podcast, to shape our own narratives.
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  And this is why I'm so excited to be in conversation today with Karla Cornejo Villavicencio.
• 0:58
  Karla is an accomplished writer and storyteller whose work has appeared in The
• 1:01
  Atlantic, The New York Times, Vogue, Elle, and other major publications.
• 1:06
  She's the author of The Undocumented Americans and Catalina,
• 1:10
  two books which we'll be talking about.
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  She's an immigrant from Ecuador, a former undocumented immigrant, and a Harvard graduate.
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  And Karla is changing the narrative about immigrants one story at a time.
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  This is the NILC Freedom to Thrive podcast, Powering pro-immigrant narratives, one story at a time.
• 1:29
  I'm Victoria Ballesteros, Executive Vice President of Narrative at the National Immigration Law.
• 1:36
  Hi, Karla. Como estas? Good to see you. Hi. Thank you for having me.
• 1:41
  Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for talking with us.
• 1:44
  You know, I first heard you speak in February 2020 in Miami at an immigration conference.
• 1:51
  I don't know if you remember that. It was right before the pandemic.
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  And I was so blown away by not just your story, but the way that you told it.
• 1:59
  And I think you were talking about at the time, the undocumented Americans,
• 2:02
  because it might have just come out.
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  So I read The Undocumented Americans on a flight to D.C. It was a five-hour
• 2:09
  flight, and I could not put this book down.
• 2:11
  It was one of those books that I just didn't want it to end.
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  It's a beautiful work of art.
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  And honestly, I think this book should be required reading for anybody who wants
• 2:22
  to have an opinion about immigrants or immigration.
• 2:26
  You know, this book, The Undocumented Americans, was nominated for a National
• 2:32
  Book Award for or nonfiction, or it was shortlisted, right? Congratulations on that.
• 2:37
  You know, so often when we hear about immigrants, the stories and identities
• 2:42
  of immigrants are tethered to their economic contributions and framed as labor and economy and jobs.
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  But in The Undocumented Americans, you tell the stories of immigrants as multidimensional
• 2:54
  people in ways that we don't often hear about.
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  And you've referred to them as people who don't inspire hashtags or t-shirts.
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  Can you talk about that a little bit and your motivation or the inspiration
• 3:06
  for taking that approach?
• 3:08
  Yes, thank you so much for your kind words about my work, by the way.
• 3:13
  But yes, I think that The Undocumented Americans was, even for me,
• 3:19
  writing it, a surprise at discovering,
• 3:23
  you know, what it is that I saw in a story of immigration or in a story about immigrants.
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  And so the expectations I think that a lot of people had when they talked to
• 3:34
  immigrants is like, tell me why you came here.
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  Tell me the sad conditions and the difficult conditions. Definitely tell me
• 3:41
  about your journey crossing the border.
• 3:44
  And there are kind of these like asks and requirements and sort of a script to the story.
• 3:50
  And I think that I approached with genuine curiosity, who are some of the immigrants
• 3:57
  around us in our communities? What are they like?
• 4:00
  Like just getting to know them as people.
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  And that was honestly easier to do for me than resorting to stereotypes because
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  I don't think of my community in terms of stereotypes.
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  And so, you know, a lot of people are like, wow, you really leaned into seeing these people as people.
• 4:20
  And I was like, yeah, because they are people to me.
• 4:23
  They are people to us, right? So it's the people, our family members,
• 4:28
  the people who work at the deli, the people who work at the schools,
• 4:31
  like there are immigrants and undocumented immigrants everywhere.
• 4:35
  And so I think just the normalcy of the stories really resonated with people. Yeah.
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  11, 12 million undocumented Americans in this country right now. And so you spoke with,
• 4:51
  individuals, immigrants, undocumented immigrants who helped in the 9-11 cleanup.
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  You talked with individuals who responded to disasters and hurricanes without even being asked.
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  They just showed up because they wanted to help. They recognize the important
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  role that they play in their communities.
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  Staten Island, you spoke with folks in Staten Island and Flint, Michigan.
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  It's really captivating and moving the way that you beautifully convey the humanity
• 5:18
  of these individuals and their families.
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  And I wanted to share just one example.
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  And I don't think he's a big role in the book, but his name was Fernando Jimenez Molinar.
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  He was 19 years old, immigrant from Mexico, left his mother behind.
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  Was working in a pizza shop as a dishwasher, delivering pizzas on 9-11.
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  And he never came home and obviously presumed dead.
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  But the way that you narrate the relationship between him and his mother and
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  the way that you imagine his final moments it just about broke me.
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  And maybe it's because I have a son who's about the same age and I just really
• 5:55
  related to that, but it's just such an intimate portrayal. And I congratulate you on that.
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  I'm curious though, because you also are an immigrant and from a family of immigrants,
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  was there anything that surprised you as you were getting to know these folks
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  and sort of in their communities, in these different spaces and getting to know them?
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  I think that I was surprised by how deeply they had all thought about being
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  an immigrant, being a migrant.
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  And I think that it's so interesting when I talk about anything about my life, right? Right.
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  People are always like, you know, this is your story or thanks for telling us your story.
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  And I was not surprised, but I guess I was surprised to see all of all of the
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  people that I met had stories about themselves, like had a story in their mind about themselves.
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  And it wasn't necessarily the correct story. Right. Or.
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  Factual story. Maybe it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny or even to comparisons
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  with other people, but we all have stories that we tell about ourselves and
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  about our relationship to our home countries, this country.
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  And so it was a lot of listening because I did a lot of these interviews late
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  at night or over lunch or just while spending a lot of time with people.
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  And And it wasn't something that I had to prod deeply for.
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  They were like, this is my story.
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  Here's what I think about being an immigrant.
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  So it's one of the things that I say in the book is that often when immigrants,
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  you see immigrants depicted in the mainstream media, it's just pictures of newly
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  arrived immigrants huddled and scared and everything. thing.
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  And a lot of people praised me for writing immigrants who spoke in full sentences in my book,
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  you know, they were like, this is, I said, I don't want to translate our words
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  like we're, like we all speak like kindergartners.
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  And in fact, yes, these are adult people in many cases who have things to say. Yeah.
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  Very nuanced, right? Multi-layered, all of that really comes through.
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  And I really appreciated that.
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  And, you know, there's something else that you touched on that struck me as
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  a reader and which as the daughter of immigrants, I feel like.
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  I never, I never put my finger on it, but it came through as you wrote about it.
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  And I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough is, is both the guilt and
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  the expectations that come with being a child of immigrants.
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  Right. And, and it's maybe not guilt. Maybe it's, maybe it's things that we
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  put on ourselves or maybe it's things that our family members or communities
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  put on us, but it's there and we carry it.
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  And, and, you know, my mother passed away a couple of months ago and And my
• 8:54
  whole life, like I watched the sacrifices that she was making,
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  her broken body, right? She gave birth 11 times, worked in factories.
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  And I exhausted myself because I felt like I owed it to her because of her sacrifices
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  and then wanted to make her final years, you know, good and better.
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  And I think we accomplished that, thankfully.
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  But that's the thing that we don't talk about. And I was so moved by how you
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  conveyed that there in a very subtle way, but sometimes also very, very bluntly.
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  And I wonder, have you gotten a response or a reaction to that?
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  Are there other people out there who also, you know, feel that way?
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  Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that many times the deepest,
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  truest truths about our lives are things that feel kind of shameful or that
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  feel like we feel like we're the only ones and there's There's no way anybody
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  could possibly understand.
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  And when I met readers or hear from readers who responded to the undocumented Americans,
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  it's so many children of immigrants, not just immigrants from Latin American
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  countries, but from around the world.
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  I think it's a shared experience of many children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants.
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  This idea of a debt or idea of a repayment, certainly if there is a sacrifice,
• 10:19
  a great sacrifice, then what do we do with that?
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  And the idea of repayment and gratitude and debt are themes that I explore in
• 10:31
  this new book that I wrote called Catalina,
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  because I do think it is central to the experience of immigrant families, mixed status families.
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  And it's something we need to talk about amongst each other and with each other.
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  Again, I don't necessarily think like sometimes when I'm, it's kind of like entre nos,
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  you know, sometimes there are like outsiders who are a little too interested
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  in seeing like performances of gratitude and sacrifice and feeling indebted.
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  And there I like, I withhold.
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  But si es que estamos entre nos, if it's with other kids of immigrants or other
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  people who relate in some way to that, I am happy to like share in that space
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  because it's something that we all know very deeply. Yes.
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  And not talking about it, I think, feeds that shame that you referenced.
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  And so maybe this conversation will allow others to recognize that it's there
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  and be able to talk about it and maybe, you know, reduce some of that shame
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  of what's being carried.
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  Karla, I know you talk a little bit about this in The Undocumented Americans,
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  but for those who haven't read it yet, can you share your journey to becoming a writer?
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  Was that something that you always wanted to do or did that come along while
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  you were at Harvard or later in life?
• 11:53
  You know, that's a good question. I think that I really did love to read as
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  a child, but as a child, I didn't really ever want to read.
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  I wouldn't say that I've wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl.
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  I wouldn't say the idea of writing ever seemed possible.
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  You know, it was like, did I want to be Britney Spears when I grew up?
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  Sure. I mean, I guess, right? It would have been that kind of thing.
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  But survival was very important to me.
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  And day-to-day survival, because being undocumented meant that it was really
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  hard to make long-term plans.
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  And I just ended up being a writer because of like many decisions that I made
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  when I was in high school and college and in my early 20s that were like,
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  what can I do to survive?
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  And it ended up being writing. I feel a very close personal connection to the English language.
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  I feel like the English language is private and it's mine.
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  And writing has always been a public thing for me.
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  It's never felt something that has been entirely private. It's private.
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  You know, even when I was little, I think that the idea of writing in a journal
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  has always been very hard because it never occurred to me that writing was a
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  private activity because I grew up in a religious environment.
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  And the idea was that the angels were always watching.
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  God was always watching. The devil was always watching. And so certainly the
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  idea of private writing was not a thing.
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  Everything had an audience. audience and so my
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  idea of writing of putting anything down on paper
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  at all was always like there's going to be
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  an audience yeah so you were primed for being a writer i it feels like to me
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  in in some ways you've always had an audience with the the devil and god and
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  the angels i remember asking a sister in the congregation when i was little
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  i was like so if i'm writing in my diary rate.
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  Doesn't that make it easier for the devil to know how to get me? Yeah, exactly.
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  And I think that's a very good question. That's very smart. Yeah.
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  You know, and you mentioned survival as a kid. And I want to tell you that one
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  of my least favorite questions, I get really annoyed for some reason.
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  It just immediately, you know, I'm annoyed when people ask me,
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  what did you want to be when you were growing up? What did you want to be when you were a kid?
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  Because when I think about that question, all I think about is I wanted to survive.
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  I was in survival mode for much of my early life.
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  And so I get it. I understand your sense that when you were a kid,
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  you weren't thinking about what I wanted to be, maybe beyond being Britney Spears or something.
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  So I just appreciate you sharing that because again, I don't think that that is unique to me or to you.
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  I think there's a lot of folks, particularly in immigrant and undocumented communities
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  who probably grow up that way as well.
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  Yeah. And I think that it's okay for us, for people who have had to fight tooth
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  and nail to just survive in this world, to not have a romantic view of everything in our lives.
• 15:22
  Yeah. I think that that's appropriate. We've seen a lot.
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  Carla, you really put yourself out there as an undocumented immigrant at a very
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  young age and at a really dangerous time for immigrants in this country.
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  And I find your work and your sharing to be incredibly courageous.
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  You share so much about yourself in The Undocumented Americans.
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  Where does that courage come from?
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  I've seen a lot of very courageous people in my life on a day-to-day basis.
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  And it's really, I think moments of great courage that I've seen are in the
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  insistence of, for instance.
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  Many women in my life, their insistence on dignity and how dignity means so much to themselves.
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  Like, I've mentioned my mom,
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  I've written about my mom, and she has such a deep sense of dignity where even
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  if she was kind of like in a dark room with the lights off and the windows shut and the door closed,
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  she would still like, I don't know, make sure that her hair was just right.
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  And she would make sure that she was moving around and taking care of her body.
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  She just has a sense of ownership of herself.
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  And in order for an undocumented woman who's been beaten and battered by the
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  world in many ways to be able to hold her head up high in that way constantly
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  is deeply courageous and requires a great amount of defiance and a great sense of self-esteem.
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  And so I think probably from that insistence on dignity that I've seen,
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  I feel like I can move through the world with my head held up high,
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  even if, you know, some decisions I make might seem a little risky. key.
• 17:27
  That's beautiful. And here's to your courageous mother and to all the courageous
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  mothers out there who are insisting on their dignity.
• 17:35
  Let's shift to your new book, Catalina, that you mentioned.
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  Catalina, which I am also reading. And I'm reading this one a little bit more
• 17:47
  slowly because The Undocumented Americans, I read it on one flight.
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  And I want to enjoy this one a little more because I also don't want this one to end.
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  I'm on the third section of it and I'm reading. I don't want it to end. It's a beautiful book.
• 18:01
  I don't want to give away any spoilers. So can you talk a little bit about what is it about?
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  It's fiction. It's different than the undocumented Americans, right?
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  So the undocumented Americans, I really had to go out there and talk to a lot of people.
• 18:17
  It was my first time seeing so much of this country, right?
• 18:21
  I had It kind of stayed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts. Yeah, that's right.
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  And it was such a social experience for me.
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  And I think one of the reasons people responded so much to it is because I let
• 18:39
  myself to quote a writer that I like, Judith Butler, to allow myself to be undone by other people.
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  Like I met people and I was like, I'm not going to try to keep an emotional
• 18:52
  distance the way that journalists have to in order to survive.
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  Right. I was like, I'm going to fully let myself be affected.
• 19:00
  And I did. But I did also need to really step back from that and kind of heal from that.
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  Or I was going to be so burnt out that I would not be able to write again.
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  And so Catalina was very solitary experience.
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  It was just in my house, downstairs with the lights off, with the blue lights
• 19:20
  that we all got during lockdown on, with like, you know, a K-drama in the background, just with myself.
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  And it ends up being kind of like an homage to the interior life of a girl.
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  Just the idea that you can put this girl anywhere in the world,
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  and if she has her mind, she's going to be okay. And so it felt like a very
• 19:48
  kind of opposite experience from the undocumented Americans.
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  But the effect, I hope, is still the same, which is that people feel seen.
• 19:57
  People feel like, you know, it's a party I'm throwing for them as well, you know. Yeah.
• 20:04
  I love her. There are things about her that I want to be. She's amazing.
• 20:08
  When does the book come out? Is it out or is it coming out soon?
• 20:12
  My book comes out July 23rd. Awesome. Okay, so everyone has to pick up a copy of Catalina.
• 20:18
  Karla, what inspires you to keep going?
• 20:21
  I think I have a very deep sense of defiance.
• 20:26
  That comes through in your writing. I love it. But it's a defiance that,
• 20:30
  I mean, I choose when to be defiant, something I can control, right?
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  If a librarian tells me to do anything, I'll do it.
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  I'm a teacher's pet through and through.
• 20:43
  I'm not one for a traffic violation. But the instructions that I've been given,
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  as many of us have when we're born into this world in these bodies,
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  is that I had to be small. I had to keep my head down.
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  I was a sexual object. I was deportable. I was all of these things.
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  And that just wouldn't do.
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  And so from a very young age, I was just like, no.
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  And so that's what keeps me going is that there continues to be propaganda and
• 21:19
  narratives about women and immigrants and Latina women and all of that.
• 21:24
  And it just won't fly with me or with any of us. And so I...
• 21:33
  I guess, the desire to say no, but also the fun in saying no.
• 21:38
  You can say fun in a fun, sexy way. And that's what I like to do.
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  And so are there other writers or artists who are doing similar work or just
• 21:52
  who are putting work out today that you admire,
• 21:55
  that you look up to or just maybe that you listen to or watch or read in your downtime?
• 22:06
  So the truth is that in my downtime, I tend to want to read books by authors that are like way dead.
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  Because if they're writers that are alive, I end up feeling like,
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  are they good writers? How how do I compare?
• 22:22
  Like, oh my God. And then like, I get really dramatic and I'm like,
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  I'll never write again. This person is so much better than me.
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  Whereas like if people who are better than me are already dead,
• 22:31
  I can just learn and move on.
• 22:33
  So, but I do like being a fangirl as well.
• 22:38
  So Mary H.K. Choi is YA primarily writer, but she has a recent article out in
• 22:49
  New York Magazine about her adult autism diagnosis.
• 22:53
  Oh, interesting. And she is also a daughter of immigrants, and she is just the
• 23:00
  coolest person in the world.
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  But her writing is very accessible, and I like that, right?
• 23:09
  When I want to read, I also like reading theory and history,
• 23:13
  but I like the experience of reading a book in one or two settings.
• 23:18
  And I get that with Mary. So I recommend, she has a book called Emergency Contact that I like.
• 23:27
  I love Javier Zamora. His book Solito was just beautiful and very much,
• 23:36
  again, going inside the mind of a single, I think it's a radical choice,
• 23:42
  going inside the mind of like a single young migrant.
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  In this case, the mind of a nine-year-old boy.
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  In my case, the mind of a 20-year-old psycho girl.
• 23:51
  And this is all part of the rich tapestry of immigrant life. Yes, it is.
• 23:58
  And what about like music or food? What do you turn to? Is there anything that
• 24:02
  you have nostalgia for? Because I know that I think, well, let me ask you this.
• 24:05
  Do you identify as a New Yorker? If somebody were to ask you where's home or
• 24:09
  where are you from, do you immediately think New York or? Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:13
  So you're not in New York anymore, correct? You're outside. No, I'm not.
• 24:17
  I'm a Connecticut-y now. All right.
• 24:20
  Connecticut-y in the house. So do you miss, like, is there food or like anything
• 24:25
  that you missed about New York?
• 24:27
  Oh, of course. When my mom was just here a couple of weeks ago and she brought
• 24:35
  over ceviche, her ceviche. She brought over her encebollado.
• 24:39
  She brought over tostones, which she had kind of partially cooked.
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  They were really, really flat. She makes really flat tostones.
• 24:47
  And then each one was separated by sheets of aluminum foil. So it was a stack of tostones.
• 24:53
  It's the kind of just beautiful touches that you can only get from your family. I...
• 25:00
  There was a Dominican restaurant near where I grew up, which has my favorite food in the world.
• 25:08
  It was like chicharrones de pollo, arroz y habichuelas, tostones, ensalada de aguacate.
• 25:15
  Those are, I grew up with a lot of Puerto Rican food. My mom made like,
• 25:21
  my mom came here when she was in her like early 20s.
• 25:23
  Like she also learned to cook from the women around her. And so,
• 25:27
  like, you know, Bistec and Cebollado, like when I get sad or when I get homesick,
• 25:34
  there's an Ecuadorian place around here.
• 25:36
  But sometimes that's too triggering because it's just I get too in my feelings.
• 25:41
  But then I get Puerto Rican food and that makes me really feel really happy and cozy.
• 25:47
  Oh, nice. Well, and speaking of Puerto
• 25:49
  Ricans, I noticed Bad Bunny makes appearances in both of your books.
• 25:54
  Does he? Oh, my God.
• 25:57
  Are you a Bad Bunny fan?
• 26:00
  What a time to ask that question. I, I am.
• 26:05
  I didn't like his outfit for the Met Gala.
• 26:09
  He wore this little like conquistador outfit looking thing. Yeah.
• 26:13
  But, you know, I think he's very handsome.
• 26:17
  And, oh my God, I sound like my mom now.
• 26:20
  This is like my mom. If you're like, what do you think of Bad Bunny?
• 26:22
  And she's like, look, I don't know about his personal life, but he's a very
• 26:26
  handsome young man. He's very talented. Very talented.
• 26:30
  Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I think at some point we all start sounding
• 26:33
  like our mothers. What a nice young man.
• 26:39
  I think he's a good boy.
• 26:44
  So, Karla, you know, is there any questions? So I know that you've done a lot
• 26:49
  of interviews. I know you've done other podcasts.
• 26:51
  Is there anything that people don't ask you that you wish someone would ask you?
• 26:57
  Honestly, if people were like, what's your favorite North American mammal?
• 27:02
  I would be like, I like chipmunks. And yes, and I could talk about because they're so cute.
• 27:10
  And I love I love just I love that.
• 27:13
  You know, I just I love I don't even want to befriend a chipmunk.
• 27:17
  I don't want to have a chipmunk eat out of my hand.
• 27:19
  I am OK standing 15 away from the chipmunk and just admiring it.
• 27:24
  It's they're so cute. They move so fast.
• 27:27
  They make me so happy. And I also like Pomeranians.
• 27:31
  Like I imagine if I'm really sad, if it comes to it one day,
• 27:35
  I'm always just like, I'm going to want to lie down in a room with a bunch of
• 27:41
  Pomeranians just like running over me.
• 27:43
  And I'm sure that could cure any depression. Sure.
• 27:47
  Well, Carla, so at the National Immigration Law Center, we believe in a vision
• 27:51
  of this country where everyone can thrive, no matter how much money we have,
• 27:55
  what we look like or where we were born. And that's really our vision.
• 28:00
  What would your wish be for this country if you could change anything?
• 28:03
  I would really appreciate it if people in office wouldn't sell out the country
• 28:13
  or would not sell out democracy for temporary personal employment.
• 28:18
  So specific senators like Lindsey Graham, who stand behind like a former president
• 28:27
  who's trying to dismantle democracy, who knows better? And you know that they're lying.
• 28:33
  And the only reason that they're supporting essentially a dismantling of the
• 28:39
  American democratic experiment is because they want to win a re-election.
• 28:43
  That is so cowardly. And to see so many politicians make decisions because they
• 28:51
  only care about a reelection, I would...
• 28:56
  Wish that people would interpret their American patriotism to mean making decisions
• 29:02
  that may be bad for them personally.
• 29:07
  I mean, in general, all of us, including non-politicians,
• 29:11
  sometimes decisions that are good for all of us are maybe bad for us personally,
• 29:20
  and we can all take a couple of hits sometimes.
• 29:24
  So, you know, for instance, that's why I pay my taxes, right?
• 29:29
  So, yeah, that's what I, that's what I wish. I wish that politicians especially
• 29:34
  would take a look in the mirror and be like, why am I doing this?
• 29:38
  Yeah, that's, that's brilliant. And it's really up to all of us as well,
• 29:43
  like you said, to play a role in that.
• 29:45
  So vote, vote often to all who can vote.
• 29:50
  Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself
• 29:54
  with us as readers and as your, your audience.
• 29:57
  And thank you for, for making time to talk with us today.
• 30:00
  So Catalina, everybody's got to pick it up, but before you pick up Catalina,
• 30:03
  pick up the undocumented Americans and make sure you read that one as well.
• 30:08
  Carla, thank you so much. I wish you continued success and I look forward to
• 30:12
  reading everything that you write in the future because again,
• 30:15
  you're a brilliant writer and a very important voice.
• 30:18
  And I thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thanks for your kind words.
• 30:22
  I want to thank our listeners for spending time with us. For more immigration
• 30:26
  truths, visit us at nilk.org and freedomtothrive.com.
• 30:30
  And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
• 30:34
  I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you.