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Transcript

It’s Not the Bruise… It’s the Cover Up · Paging America

0:14
SPEAKER_02: Hello, folks.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Paging America,
0:17
SPEAKER_02: where we explore the power,
0:19
SPEAKER_02: profit,
0:19
SPEAKER_02: and politics shaping American health care and what you can do about it.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Miles Baker, along with Dr. Rob Davidson.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: Rob, it's Thursday.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Does that mean you were in the ER last night?
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I was.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I was there until about 1 a.m.
0:31
And I went in pissed off about RFK and the FDA and pulling
0:36
COVID vaccines for
0:37
people like you and me and knowing that and thinking that that
0:40
was the worst news
0:42
SPEAKER_01: of the day with what we do and what I do.
0:44
And I come out with about 30 pings on multiple signal chats and
0:48
alerts on every
0:49
SPEAKER_01: single news feed I've followed.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: And it turns out that there's no more CDC.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's really fucking scary.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: That's really scary.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: That's really, really messed up.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: So I think we might talk about that a little bit today.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: How are you doing today?
1:01
Are you feeling pretty good that the chief public health agency
1:04
of the U.S.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: has basically dissolved overnight?
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I do not feel good about that.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: It was very troubling.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: I was going to get a good night's sleep last night,
1:12
SPEAKER_02: and then I was watching the news,
1:13
SPEAKER_02: and I just had to start reading it all,
1:15
SPEAKER_02: and it kept me up pretty late.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: So that was when we're not as late as you.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Oof.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's rough.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: So for folks listening, we do got a good show for you today.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: We got a lot of breaking news to cover.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: So I'll just note, we're recording this August 28th in the morning.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: So news is moving fast.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: This will publish probably in the afternoon.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: So if you get this and things have moved on, that's why.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so do stick around on the back half of the show.
1:37
We have a great interview with Sarah Ewald-Weiss on her
1:40
incredible reporting on the
1:42
SPEAKER_02: president's health and then the stonewalling around information about the
1:45
SPEAKER_02: president's health.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Stick around for that.
1:47
So but,
1:48
Rob,
1:48
at the top,
1:49
let's get into the CDC because this is just this is big news.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not just the U.S.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: that relies on the CDC.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: It's huge swaths of the world that rely on the CDC.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: So to get into what happened at the CDC, Rob, what did happen overnight?
2:02
Well,
2:02
it started with,
2:03
it looks like,
2:04
the resignation of some key figures at the CDC.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: There was initial reporting that the CDC director,
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Susan Moneros,
2:11
SPEAKER_01: who just was,
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I think,
2:13
SPEAKER_01: approved by the Senate a few weeks ago,
2:14
SPEAKER_01: a month ago,
2:15
SPEAKER_01: something like that.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, about a month.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that she had resigned.
2:19
And then her lawyer put out a statement saying she has neither
2:21
resigned nor has she been fired.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: So that that was happening on one side.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And then four key officials with the CDC all resigned.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Jennifer Layden,
2:30
SPEAKER_01: who previously the director of the agency's Office of Public Health Data
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Surveillance and Technology.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: That seems pretty important.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: She's gone.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: Daniel Jernigan ran the Center for Emerging Zoonotic Infectious Diseases,
2:42
SPEAKER_01: that's basically diseases that can go from animals to humans.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Maybe COVID-19, maybe monkeypox, right?
2:48
These are real things out there that have happened and need to
2:51
be monitored.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: This guy's gone.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: Deborah Hury, the chief medical officer of the CDC, big job at the CDC.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: She resigned.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And then later in the day,
2:59
SPEAKER_01: and I think this happened maybe between leaving work and driving home,
3:03
SPEAKER_01: or I have no idea—
3:04
But after her lawyer put out the statement that she has neither
3:07
resigned nor been
3:08
SPEAKER_01: terminated as a kind of fuck you from the administration,
3:12
SPEAKER_01: they said,
3:12
SPEAKER_01: ah,
3:12
SPEAKER_01: well,
3:12
SPEAKER_01: we'll see that.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: And they fired her, basically.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: And so,
3:16
SPEAKER_01: like,
3:16
SPEAKER_01: it's not hyperbole to say,
3:18
SPEAKER_01: and I don't have the flowchart of the CDC in front of me,
3:21
SPEAKER_01: and it would be a big flowchart,
3:23
SPEAKER_01: but a lot of big-name people at the CDC are gone today.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't think any of us knows what that means.
3:31
And this is coming on the heels of the big announcement from
3:34
the FDA about COVID-19 vaccines.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: And I did a Substack Live about this on Paging America Substack.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: You can go look at that kind of quick response yesterday.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: But,
3:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
3:43
SPEAKER_01: they basically said the vaccines can be given to people 65 and over,
3:47
SPEAKER_01: people with preexisting conditions that could make them more at risk.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, everyone else, it really isn't approved.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: It is approved for children if they go to their doctor.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: But,
4:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:19
SPEAKER_01: if they're not out there,
4:20
SPEAKER_01: if the FDA is saying this is off-label,
4:23
SPEAKER_01: you can see entire health systems,
4:24
SPEAKER_01: pharmacy chains saying,
4:26
SPEAKER_01: well,
4:26
SPEAKER_01: we're just not going to get mucked up in the politics of this.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: We just won't do it.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Costco did it with Miffy, right?
4:32
SPEAKER_01: They decided it's not worth the hassle.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what this means.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: It's a little terrifying heading into fall,
4:38
SPEAKER_01: winter in the ER because none of us want to go back to where we were.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
4:43
SPEAKER_01: all of this,
4:44
SPEAKER_01: I think,
4:44
just tells us we are sort of on the precipice and probably past
4:49
the precipice of
4:50
SPEAKER_01: RFK Jr.'
4:50
's full-on takeover of the public health apparatus and all his
4:55
kooks and minions
4:56
SPEAKER_01: running the show.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: What do you think as a layperson, Miles?
5:00
I don't know as much about the CDC as some people,
5:02
maybe a little more than you.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
5:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
5:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
5:05
SPEAKER_02: like public health as a general matter,
5:06
like doesn't score as many points because it's what doesn't
5:10
happen is the victory.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: The illnesses that don't occur,
5:14
SPEAKER_02: the death disease,
5:15
SPEAKER_02: disability that doesn't happen,
5:17
that you don't see it because public health intervened and it
5:20
didn't happen.
5:21
And I think Americans that are alive today have never lived in
5:25
a world in which
5:27
SPEAKER_02: public health has moved underground at the federal level.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's pockets in the American South.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: Maybe there are pockets in the American West.
5:35
Maybe there are counties in places where public health
5:40
infrastructure has failed or
5:42
SPEAKER_02: not done as good of a job as it could have.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: and something bad happened.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: But never,
5:47
never in our lives have we seen something as profound as public
5:50
health getting
5:51
SPEAKER_02: destroyed from the very top down.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: I think we're in for a pretty rude awakening.
5:55
I will tell you,
5:56
Rob,
5:57
I had an interesting interaction with my spouse yesterday.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: I said, hey, did you see the news about
6:02
the COVID vaccine not available for some folks or not
6:04
recommended for some folks.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: And she said, well, she's pregnant.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: She said, I'm pregnant.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: I'll get it, I suspect.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: And I said,
6:11
SPEAKER_02: actually,
6:11
SPEAKER_02: it was like an explicit,
6:13
SPEAKER_02: they explicitly said no,
6:15
SPEAKER_02: no shots for pregnant women,
6:17
SPEAKER_02: which is a risk factor,
6:19
SPEAKER_02: if I'm not mistaken,
6:20
SPEAKER_02: for COVID.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: That makes COVID more complicated.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it was a little shocking there.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: You know,
6:26
SPEAKER_02: like a shocking moment in your own home to say like,
6:28
SPEAKER_02: wow,
6:28
SPEAKER_02: this is going to affect people right away.
6:30
And you talked about like pockets of this country where public
6:33
health has failed
6:34
SPEAKER_01: the population.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: That is true.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: But primarily that has in the past been out of maybe neglect.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: No, no nefarious intentions, just neglect.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Like lack of funding, primarily lack of funding.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Everything comes down to that.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: And like this is this is different.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Like this is intentional.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:50
I was thinking more like good faith mistakes where public
6:52
health didn't stand up
6:54
SPEAKER_02: versus the sabotage for politics.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, honestly, nobody wants to talk about COVID anymore.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: You know that in the public, nobody does.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: I was just talking to my partner the other day.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine that,
7:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:07
SPEAKER_01: as a couple of our docs and later in our careers,
7:10
SPEAKER_01: we actually like lived through this,
7:12
SPEAKER_01: one of the biggest watershed moments in the history of the world,
7:16
SPEAKER_01: probably,
7:16
SPEAKER_01: right?
7:16
SPEAKER_01: The COVID-19 pandemic will...
7:18
It's kind of one of those markers on the timeline that will
7:20
always be there.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, a thousand years from now, that will be there.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, like when the meteor hit and wiped out the dinosaurs.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: And we live through it.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: We work through it.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: And I believe in the vaccines, right?
7:29
I saw the terrors of COVID and people coming in blue with
7:33
oxygens of 50 percent and
7:35
SPEAKER_01: flipping them on their bellies because you couldn't.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: get them oxygenated any other way,
7:39
and having conversations with families through masks and gowns
7:42
and glass shields
7:43
SPEAKER_01: about putting them on a ventilator,
7:45
SPEAKER_01: knowing that we might not be able to make them better,
7:48
SPEAKER_01: that will never leave.
7:49
And there is a degree of harm that happens to the individuals
7:54
to whom this happened
7:55
SPEAKER_01: and also to the providers and nurses and anyone involved.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: None of us want to be dealing with this shit.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: And they sort of know that, right?
8:03
SPEAKER_01: These folks trying to dismantle this apparatus,
8:05
they know that because they know in the general public kind of
8:08
doing something with
8:09
SPEAKER_01: COVID vaccines,
8:10
those of us interested in public health and many people I know
8:13
and in my world very
8:15
SPEAKER_01: much concerned about this.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the lay public,
8:17
SPEAKER_01: probably this goes by as a wah-wah,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: same with the CDC,
8:20
SPEAKER_01: because people just want to go past it.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, that whole time sucked.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do that again.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about that.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So let's just not.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Let's put our head in the sand and not think about it.
8:29
So I think it's really critical that we and others in this
8:32
space really just keep
8:34
making sure people know that the harms that this can do and
8:38
that this has been
8:39
SPEAKER_01: intentional,
8:40
SPEAKER_01: right?
8:40
SPEAKER_01: This is a result of a guy, RFK Jr., coming in who doesn't respect
8:45
science or research or anything in that field has always been
8:48
about himself and the
8:49
SPEAKER_01: grift,
8:50
SPEAKER_01: who,
8:50
like capitalizing on people's kind of growing tired of COVID
8:54
and dealing with
8:54
SPEAKER_01: COVID,
8:55
SPEAKER_01: did the same thing with autism and with the MMR vaccine,
8:59
finding desperate families and giving them an answer that
9:01
wasn't based on any
9:02
SPEAKER_01: reality,
9:03
but gave someone at least an answer and kind of recruiting and
9:06
being a big kind of
9:08
SPEAKER_01: the tip of the spear of the Maha movement.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: It's really scary that they've now gotten to this point.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: And
9:13
SPEAKER_01: I just have to bring up Dr.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Dimitri Deskalakis,
9:16
who was the previous director of the National Center for
9:18
Immunizations and
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Respiratory Diseases.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: He resigned yesterday with quite a flair.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: He put out a post on X, maybe elsewhere.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: I forget how many paragraphs.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: I lost track.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: A lot of scrolling on X to get to it all.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: I got a segment of it right here if you want me to read it.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh, go ahead.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:36
He said he was unable to serve in an environment that treats
9:39
CDC as a tool to
9:41
generate policies and materials that do not reflect scientific
9:45
reality and are
9:46
SPEAKER_02: designed to hurt rather than to improve public health.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: He went on,
9:50
lack of communication by HHS and other CDC political leadership
9:54
that culminates in
9:54
social media posts announcing major policy changes without
9:58
prior notice is
9:59
Demonstrate a disregard of normal communication channels and
10:01
common sense.
10:02
I am not sure who the secretary is listening to,
10:05
but it is quite certainly not to us.
10:07
Unvetted and conflicted outside organizations seem to be the
10:11
sources HHS use over
10:13
SPEAKER_02: the gold standard science of the CDC and other reputable sources.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:18
SPEAKER_01: he went on to talk about Trump as an authoritarian,
10:21
SPEAKER_01: about this entire administration,
10:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:23
SPEAKER_01: being politicizing every aspect of public health.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: The guy, he's not wrong.
10:28
You know,
10:28
he certainly said his piece on the way out the door and give
10:31
respect for that.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: There may be some frustration that what happens when all these sort of,
10:37
SPEAKER_01: quote,
10:37
SPEAKER_01: good people leave,
10:38
SPEAKER_01: right?
10:39
SPEAKER_01: The people, the high-minded people who really do respect science and
10:42
SPEAKER_01: In some norms, what happens next, right?
10:45
SPEAKER_01: We could wish that they would all stay and fight and push back,
10:48
but they're in there sort of being forced to represent this
10:51
reality RFK Jr.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: has cooked up that isn't based in anyone else's reality.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: So I understand why these folks said, I'm out.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I guess we'll have to see what happens next in this institution.
11:03
And you said it,
11:04
the world does depend on the CDC or has depended on the CDC.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: But the world has depended on the U.S.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: to be a leader, right?
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And kind of fighting for freedom.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Certainly since World War II,
11:15
SPEAKER_01: where my great great uncles,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: a couple of great uncles served and possibly people in your family,
11:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:22
SPEAKER_01: a couple of generations now removed.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: Those folks, I don't remember their politics.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: We didn't talk about it when I was 10 years old.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Certainly they wouldn't think this stuff was okay.
11:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is – it's like the politicization of absolutely everything.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: Everything.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: It kind of comes from Trump.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: And then Robert Kennedy is such a like a mirror image of this.
11:42
Like everything has to be about Trump or the Trump
11:46
administration,
11:47
whether it's –
11:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, Taylor Swift getting married.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: He's got a way in, whether it is Cracker Barrel changing their logo.
11:54
He's got to make it about he puts his stamp of approval on like
11:58
moving it back.
11:59
And then and those are sort of the benign cultural imprint
12:03
where he's inserting himself.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: But then you have things that are not benign,
12:08
SPEAKER_02: that are not frivolous,
12:10
that are not like sort of silly cultural things that are the
12:14
hard sciences and the
12:14
SPEAKER_02: hard work.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
12:30
and I would venture to say that Donald Trump doesn't understand
12:34
what the CDC does,
12:36
may not understand what a placebo-controlled double-blind
12:39
placebo-controlled trial
12:41
SPEAKER_01: is,
12:42
probably doesn't understand how any of these drugs work or
12:44
vaccines work or what
12:45
SPEAKER_01: mRNA is.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going out on a limb to say,
12:48
I don't think that that's something this guy probably thinks
12:51
about too much or
12:52
SPEAKER_01: cares about too much.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, he probably shouldn't.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's okay.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: That's why you hire good people to do the good work, right?
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I think many people have led successfully not knowing all the things,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: but hiring people who did.
13:05
But he basically handed this over to a complete fucking lunatic
13:08
in RFK Jr.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: And it was a quid pro quo.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: You bring me those votes and I will give you this.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: And destroy it.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And destroy it.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:19
And I'm a 79-year-old,
13:21
almost 80-year-old man who is in questionable health.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: So what the fuck do I care?
13:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't think he gives a shit about his kids or anyone else beyond him.
13:30
You know,
13:30
he's a classic climb up the ladder and pull it up behind me so
13:33
no one else can get up.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think any of this causes Donald Trump to lose sleep.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: Just to dwell a little bit on Daniel Jernigan.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: I know we don't like,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: I know we're not,
13:43
SPEAKER_02: no one likes talking about COVID,
13:45
SPEAKER_02: but we all lived through a pandemic.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: We know it wasn't fun.
13:48
And so I was looking up what the zoonotic infectious disease,
13:52
what that is.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: And that, so that is when it transfers from an animal to a human.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: That's the sort of like realm of work.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's thinking about COVID in the past,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: but in the future,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: it's thinking about avian influenza.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: And if-
14:04
And this specter of another virus that has the that can
14:09
transfers at the same rate
14:10
SPEAKER_02: as COVID,
14:11
SPEAKER_02: but has a much higher fatality rate.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: And that feels like if that's gone, I mean, like it might not happen.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: But there's almost every public health person in the world is like,
14:23
SPEAKER_02: that's the that's the one they're worried about.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know anything about this.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to just like.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Is there like regional, is there regional watching of this?
14:31
SPEAKER_02: If the CDC is gone,
14:33
SPEAKER_02: are there other pockets or is it,
14:34
SPEAKER_02: or did we sort of have,
14:36
did we destroy the engine that runs the whole thing on thinking
14:39
about this,
14:39
SPEAKER_02: tracking it and making us prepared?
14:41
SPEAKER_01: No, no region or state.
14:43
I mean,
14:43
you have state health departments,
14:44
you have county health departments.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: The problem is these viruses,
14:48
SPEAKER_01: and we said it with COVID,
14:49
SPEAKER_01: if you have restrictions in one place and none in the other,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: they don't respect state lines,
14:54
SPEAKER_01: right?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: They don't respect borders and width.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Air travel, they don't respect borders of countries or oceans, right?
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And so avian influenza has passed from animals to humans, right?
15:04
SPEAKER_01: There have been cases in the U.S.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: People get extremely sick, extremely dangerous virus.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: We just haven't seen human-to-human transmission.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: But the nature of viruses is they mutate, right?
15:16
A virus's only purpose,
15:18
you know,
15:18
in life,
15:19
humans ponder the meaning of life frequently,
15:22
right?
15:22
SPEAKER_01: We all do that.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: And no one's cracked that code probably fully.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Viruses don't ponder the meaning of their life.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Their meaning of life is to have more viruses exist.
15:30
And when those viruses can pass from host to host and if it
15:34
then becomes human to
15:35
SPEAKER_01: human and that is beneficial to more virus,
15:37
SPEAKER_01: that will happen.
15:38
So the scary thing is the big coordinating agency,
15:42
the head of that now stepped down.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Who gets put in his place, right?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Is there a career person who was a number two who steps in?
15:48
But that person is then also under the pressures of all the
15:51
political bullshit that
15:52
SPEAKER_01: this guy left for,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: that Jernigan left for.
15:55
But then the other piece of this is the only reason we got a
15:58
COVID vaccine as fast
15:59
SPEAKER_01: as we did is because this president,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: who was then president,
16:03
SPEAKER_01: initiated Operation Warp Speed.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: And I don't like Donald Trump.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: That's clear.
16:08
I give Donald Trump credit as the president that was there when
16:11
Operation Warp Speed happened.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Set aside bleach.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: Set aside light up your ass to get rid of COVID.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: The stuff that he did that was crazy.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Set aside his disdain for wearing masks.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: He did do that, right?
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Normal president,
16:23
someone would have run on that and would have won 60% of the
16:26
vote because I got
16:28
SPEAKER_01: into this thing.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't embrace it, right?
16:30
Because too much of his base was already kind of completely
16:34
cooked against it.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: But they've now shut down research on mRNA technology.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: The only reason, if not for the mRNA platform of making vaccines...
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Getting a COVID vaccine would have taken at least another year, right?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: At least.
16:47
We would have had a whole other year of just absolutely a virus
16:51
gone wild.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: We already saw it in places where people didn't get vaccinated,
16:54
where there were Republican governors and other folks like
16:58
urging people not to or
17:00
SPEAKER_01: people following,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:01
SPEAKER_01: the lead of folks on Facebook.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: But if avian influenza, which, yeah, that's the scary one.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: The other piece of this is during the Obama administration,
17:08
SPEAKER_01: they did tabletop exercises on what to do in a pandemic.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Trump, it's been reported widely.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: They threw it out there.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to do that.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: That was an Obama thing.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: We don't like it.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, someone who's ahead of zoonotic diseases.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And all these folks,
17:20
they are involved in setting up these exercises where all the
17:23
agencies get together
17:24
and they model out what happens if we get avian influenza
17:27
jumping human to human in
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Texas,
17:29
SPEAKER_01: then Oklahoma or in this place,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: that place.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: How do we stop the spread?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: What do we do at FDA to fast track vaccine development?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: And all of that goes out the window.
17:39
And so you're starting at square one with a bunch of complete
17:42
kooks who don't know
17:42
SPEAKER_01: what the hell they're doing and seemingly don't care.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
17:46
Public health,
17:47
the success of public health is the things that don't happen.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: So it's hard to put on a bumper sticker.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, yay, we prevented disease.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: How many?
17:53
SPEAKER_01: We don't know, but it seemed like a lot.
17:55
And the failures are the slap you right in the face because the
17:58
failures are dead people.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's what happens next.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Just more dead people.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I always bring this down.
18:04
So,
18:05
okay,
18:05
so maybe we could talk about...
18:07
Director Susan Menard seems like a brave woman.
18:11
Give her some flowers on this one because it seems like she got
18:14
to her breaking
18:15
SPEAKER_02: point and then took a stand.
18:17
So last week we were talking about how she put out a statement
18:21
after the shooting at the CDC.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: So this is all on the heels of like a shooting at the CDC,
18:25
SPEAKER_02: just to put this in context,
18:26
SPEAKER_02: which was just about...
18:28
SPEAKER_02: 10 days ago.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: So they had the shooting.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: She put out a statement that,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: called out not by name,
18:32
but pretty clearly called out RFK for the ginning up of
18:36
conspiracy theories and the
18:37
ginning up of heaping hate and heaping like conspiratorial
18:41
thinking on on public
18:43
SPEAKER_02: health.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: And then to have this happen in sort of just a week later.
18:46
But to her to stand up and then call it out was I think I think
18:50
it was a brave move.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And I think here's what I'd say, I guess, on all this for the rest of us.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: This is having the politicization of everything,
18:57
SPEAKER_02: which is at this point clearly an authoritarian project,
19:01
SPEAKER_02: need to be in every part of government,
19:04
SPEAKER_02: even like the public health part of government,
19:06
SPEAKER_02: which seems like you would maybe want to leave that alone.
19:09
If you're going to have an authoritarian project in other
19:11
places like Treasury or
19:13
SPEAKER_02: in the security ministries,
19:14
SPEAKER_02: maybe you'd leave public health alone for the rest of us.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: But no, that needs to be in absolutely everything.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: That it's going to be really inconvenient for, like, everybody.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: But to see people do something brave,
19:25
which doing something brave is even more inconvenient than how
19:28
life would have
19:29
SPEAKER_02: normally gone,
19:29
SPEAKER_02: it should be a little bit of an inspiration for everybody.
19:32
There's going to have to be a lot more Susan Minaras who are
19:35
speaking out publicly
19:37
SPEAKER_02: and who are pushing back in their ways big and small.
19:40
Yeah.
19:41
Right,
19:41
because she doesn't know the impact of that on people down the
19:45
line,
19:45
right?
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Who that inspires.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is inspiring, right?
19:48
You and I don't need to be inspired to speak out against this
19:51
administration.
19:51
We don't have jobs within the administration,
19:53
but we have lives we'd like.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, we'd like to be able to move freely.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: I decided a bit ago, like, fuck it.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: We have to speak out, you know?
20:02
And so I guess I feel like I'm down the line a little bit from
20:04
the people they're
20:05
SPEAKER_01: going after,
20:05
SPEAKER_01: you know?
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Probably not going to get my house raided like John Bolton.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I definitely don't have confidential or classified documents in my house.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I definitely don't have a mortgage anymore.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I paid off my house.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: I have one house.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: So there's no risk of that.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think there's ways they can get me.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: But they certainly got her right.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: She was in this job and then she got fired.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: I think she probably has a future in public health,
20:28
SPEAKER_01: but as it stands right now at the levels that she was operating in,
20:32
SPEAKER_01: probably not.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:33
She certainly can't work within the CDC or any federal agency
20:36
for public health.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: And so now, you know, we lose that experience, that talent.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: It is inspiring.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And these moments that happen,
20:45
SPEAKER_01: hopefully it gets other people to be brave and to kind of say,
20:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to stand up.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to take this.
20:50
because that's i mean that's our only path right that's our
20:53
only path is enough
20:53
people standing up and then the electoral path and you know
20:57
what 14 months
20:58
something like that to start and end to all this it is i do
21:03
think there has to be
21:04
we forget i think we sometimes we give up on the republican
21:08
congress we just kind
21:08
of assume that they're gonna not do anything so we kind of we
21:13
don't we don't think
21:14
SPEAKER_02: about them as much but like yeah if
21:16
The CDC,
21:16
one of like the crown jewels of the American government,
21:19
whole world relies on it.
21:20
The United States definitely relies on it,
21:22
that Congress should investigate this.
21:25
You're getting all these top officials saying the
21:27
politicization of basic public health.
21:30
It should be it's inconceivable even one year ago that if this
21:34
had happened at any point.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: Prior to one year,
21:37
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:38
SPEAKER_02: like within not in the last seven months,
21:40
SPEAKER_02: but any time in the entire time I've been live,
21:42
SPEAKER_02: it's inconceivable that if this had happened at any moment,
21:46
SPEAKER_02: that there would not be an enormous congressional investigation,
21:50
SPEAKER_02: that there would not it would dominate the news day in and day out.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: And there would be some sort of resolution to it.
21:55
And I suspect that this there won't be a resolution to this
21:58
besides just who knows.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:00
What I'm saying is like it doesn't even like it almost doesn't
22:02
cross your mind that
22:03
Congress is going to go do something about this because they've
22:05
been such so lame
22:07
SPEAKER_02: in the face of the Trump administration and the intimidation out of the
22:09
SPEAKER_02: administration.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: But step up, guys.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: This is really bad.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's happening on your watch, you know.
22:16
And if you're listening from Louisiana,
22:18
you should please call your senator's office.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Call Senator Cassidy's office to say, hey, can you look into this?
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: You're a doc.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: You care about health care.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: You were given assurances.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: So so maybe just bring some people in and ask some questions.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have trials in these in the Senate hearings.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: You.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And very few have stepped out kind of outside of that,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:57
short of someone like Thomas Massey looking trying to get the
22:59
Epstein files.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't think his Senate counterpart,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Rand Paul,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: gives a shit that much about the CDC or any apparatus of government.
23:06
He probably would just assume it all went away and people could
23:08
just do whatever
23:08
SPEAKER_01: the hell they wanted.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: So I guess stay tuned.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: if you're in Louisiana,
23:12
SPEAKER_01: you might want to call your senator and say,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: hey,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: you got a committee that can look at this.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe let's do that.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: All right.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's bleak, Rob.
23:21
You know,
23:21
why don't we why don't we head on over to head on over to our
23:24
guest?
23:25
SPEAKER_02: It's a great interview.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: We'll take just a quick beat and we'll go to that.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: Hi, everyone.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: Today we are joined by our guest, Sarah E. Wall-Weiss.
23:37
She is a political reporter for The Daily Beast covering the
23:39
Trump administration in Congress.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: She previously worked for CBS News and The Daily Mail.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, welcome.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining us.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
23:47
So you recently wrote a piece that got quite a bit of traction
23:52
and kind of zoomed
23:53
SPEAKER_02: all around our world,
23:55
SPEAKER_02: at least in health and politics,
23:56
about President Trump covering his bruised hand and colleagues
23:59
reporting that the
24:00
SPEAKER_02: president's potential health concerns more generally.
24:03
Can you tell us a little bit about the piece before we jump
24:05
into some questions?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
24:06
So this has been something that has been a reoccurring
24:09
observation here in
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Washington among political reporters.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: The president,
24:13
SPEAKER_00: since he retook office,
24:15
has been showing up and has had a bruise on his right hand that
24:19
has been very
24:19
SPEAKER_00: severe.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: It's very prominent.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to miss.
24:22
He actually drew more attention to it because of how he's tried
24:25
to cover it up.
24:26
He has put foundation concealer on it in colors that don't
24:30
match his skin tone,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: which has drawn additional attention to it.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: The way he holds his hands, he covers it up with his left hand.
24:36
And the White House has been pretty evasive while trying to say
24:41
they're the most
24:41
SPEAKER_00: transparent administration.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: They've really not given a lot of information,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: have not been very forthcoming in terms of some of the president's
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: And Dr. Rob, so we there's this sort of growing list of maladies.
25:30
I know we are reluctant to do any sort of diagnosis by
25:34
telephone or over the television.
25:36
The speculation has ranged from gravely ill to obviously the
25:40
absurd excuse that
25:41
SPEAKER_02: it's just handshaking.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: What's your take on it?
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think Alex Jones said he was imminently going to die.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: Like unless they gave him some days off to play golf.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Listen, again, I'm not going to diagnose.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I've been an ER doctor for 20-some years,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: and I know even if I'm in a room with a patient,
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I tell them a lot of the time,
25:56
SPEAKER_01: we can't diagnose your problem.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: We can rule things out, what have you.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they said he's taking aspirin.
26:01
They said he's taking it as a primary prevention,
26:03
you know,
26:03
they said as a standard of care.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: The fact is taking aspirin is not standard of care primary prevention.
26:09
You are only supposed to be taking aspirin if you have a
26:11
preexisting disease like
26:13
SPEAKER_01: coronary artery disease,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: heart disease,
26:15
SPEAKER_01: either a heart attack or angina disease.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Or a stroke or like mini stroke,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: TIA,
26:19
something that would then predispose you to having another one
26:22
of these events.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: We stopped giving aspirin as a primary preventative drug five years ago,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: six years ago,
26:28
SPEAKER_01: somewhere in there.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, pretty big studies, big, big to do in the medical world.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: His White House team surely has to know about this.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And so if he is taking aspirin,
26:36
SPEAKER_01: OK,
26:37
can someone please tell us why the president is taking a drug
26:40
as a secondary
26:41
SPEAKER_01: prevention?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, what condition did he have?
26:45
SPEAKER_01: So that's concerning enough.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: We should know they should be pretty open about this.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And so if that's the cause of the bruising,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
26:50
I think we all know shaking someone's hand shouldn't cause a
26:53
big bruise on the back
26:54
SPEAKER_01: of the hand.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: That's a weird handshake unless he's got some weird handshake,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: that they do that we don't know about in the Republican world.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing is the ankle swelling.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could be venous insufficiency, I think is what they called it.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And that does happen.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: He's an elderly man.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: He's almost 80 years old.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Veins don't drain as well.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, people are a little bit overweight.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: That contributes to it as well.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: But if you put together someone who's taking aspirin,
27:14
SPEAKER_01: someone who has leg swelling,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: leg swelling can be from heart disease,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: from chronic congestive heart failure.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it just feels like...
27:21
SPEAKER_01: There may be more there.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: if they were completely open and never obfuscated on anything,
27:26
SPEAKER_01: you might say,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: OK,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: we believe what you're telling us.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: And why should we think otherwise?
27:30
SPEAKER_01: It's a little concerning that they've been so evasive.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: Sarah,
27:32
SPEAKER_02: I've watched a lot of administrations now,
27:34
and it seems like previous administrations have been like
27:37
pretty forthcoming
27:39
SPEAKER_02: with...
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Health concerns, obviously the last administration, possibly less so.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: But how does their information sharing with the press corps,
27:46
people have questions about what's going on with his hands and
27:49
with his legs,
27:49
stack up against either sort of previous administrations or
27:53
what you would just
27:53
SPEAKER_02: expect from disclosure from the White House?
27:55
So it is a little tricky because the Biden administration was
27:58
not forthcoming with
27:59
SPEAKER_00: some of his health issues.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: They definitely appeared on the campaign trail.
28:04
And I think that was kind of the blowback from that has raised
28:07
additional questions
28:08
SPEAKER_00: where you're asking more about it.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: But these are the oldest presidents we've had in U.S.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: history.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: So there I mean,
28:13
SPEAKER_00: just as you age,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: there are going to be more issues and there's going to be more questions.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: So I don't really want to compare it to the Biden administration.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: The Biden administration was not forthcoming.
28:22
though they did,
28:23
of course,
28:23
put out the annual physicals,
28:25
which most administrations do.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: But this one has tried to argue that they are the most transparent.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: And in doing so,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: they've pointed back to the previous administration and saying,
28:34
SPEAKER_00: well,
28:34
SPEAKER_00: next to them,
28:35
SPEAKER_00: we're very transparent.
28:36
But I think there are questions because I have asked repeatedly
28:40
whether they would
28:41
SPEAKER_00: make his doctor available,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: his White House physician available to answer questions.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: We saw the
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: I didn't expect him just to be forthcoming with me.
29:27
other reporters have brought up whether that would be something
29:30
they would look into.
29:31
And they've really been like,
29:32
well,
29:32
that's something we can certainly look into.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: But just this week,
29:35
I asked again and never heard back whether they're going to
29:37
make this doctor
29:38
SPEAKER_00: available.
29:38
So they've really tried to avoid directly answering questions
29:42
about what the
29:43
SPEAKER_00: treatment is for these things that they've said.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, they pointed to serial handshaking and
29:48
SPEAKER_00: aspirin for the bruising on his hand.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: But for the swollen legs,
29:50
SPEAKER_00: when I asked what the treatment is there,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: they said there was no treatment after beating around the bush.
29:55
But there's also questions like they've never said he's using
29:57
compression socks even.
29:59
And that seems like a very simple thing to do if that's
30:02
possibly a part of his
30:03
SPEAKER_00: treatment or they haven't said there's been any lifestyle changes.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: So they've really avoided giving any information.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And so while maybe better than previous administration,
30:12
the most recent previous administration in terms of putting out
30:15
the diagnosis,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: they're
30:16
Basically doing the same thing as these two older presidents
30:20
have been facing a ton
30:21
SPEAKER_00: of health questions.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: That must be, as a reporter, that must be tricky to navigate.
30:26
I would find it maddening if I was asking questions and not
30:29
getting sort of a straight answer.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, you've been maybe to get to the politics of this a little bit.
30:34
You've you've been covering White House MAGA,
30:36
the MAGA movement in part for a while.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: I know like the MAGA folks hang on Bannon's words quite a bit.
30:43
But what I don't have a good sense of is the Alex Jones sort of
30:46
coming out and
30:47
SPEAKER_02: saying that basically said the president was on death's doorstep.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: It was a really dramatic, really dramatic video.
30:52
But I don't have a good sense of how much folks if that causes
30:55
him a problem in his
30:56
SPEAKER_02: base,
30:56
SPEAKER_02: that the more fringy
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Right-wing talkers speculating that this is a major health issue,
31:02
if that's going to cause a problem in their base or cause a
31:05
problem for the
31:05
SPEAKER_02: administration or if that's sort of a sideshow.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: What's your take?
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Specifically with Alec Jones, it is more of a sideshow.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: I think he has a very prominent platform and voice,
31:14
SPEAKER_00: but he definitely has been sidelined a lot from his previous position.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: But him coming out, it made headlines.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: It turns heads.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: It draws attention to it.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: With his base,
31:23
I think the interesting thing here is they're so behind him in
31:28
everything he does.
31:29
I don't think they're the ones really even questioning is how
31:32
they talk about him.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, he just spent...
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Three hours doing questions with the press.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Look at how great he is.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: And then they obviously immediately turn back.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, Biden never did that.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Biden did not do three hours of doing a round robin of questions.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's as bad as MAGA makes it out to be,
31:49
but they always will just point to the previous administration
31:51
as a juxtaposition
31:53
SPEAKER_00: for what they're talking about with Biden.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: President Trump.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think it gets the same attention as Alex Jones.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: It'll be interesting to see if anyone else picks up on this.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned Steve Bannon.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: He has not been.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: He has a ton of other things that he's harping on these days.
32:07
There's other MAGA world influencers who have also been on a
32:11
ton of different issues.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: And frankly,
32:13
I do sometimes question whether they're in on causing
32:16
additional distractions so
32:18
SPEAKER_00: that they don't have to talk about this president's age or his health.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: So they could be part of that
32:23
actual actively avoiding this topic because they're so aligned
32:27
with him and so
32:28
SPEAKER_00: supportive of him.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Sarah, I have to ask.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: So I was invited to a couple of events at the White House in the last
32:33
SPEAKER_01: administration because of health advocacy.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And I saw the president in the East Room,
32:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:37
SPEAKER_01: not super up close,
32:38
SPEAKER_01: but right there in the room.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: I think the first was maybe in late 22.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: The next one was in late 23.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And I did notice and I came home and even talked to my family,
32:46
SPEAKER_01: a real difference in that year,
32:47
SPEAKER_01: just of sort of the cadence of the president's speech to the volume,
32:51
SPEAKER_01: just the general appearances.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: just seemed much more elderly the second time around.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: You know,
32:56
still with a spark in his eye and an ability to kind of tell
32:59
stories about things,
33:01
SPEAKER_01: about people in the crowd that I think he still has had.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: But there was a real difference,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: I noticed,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: and started then thinking,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: wow,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: something may be going on here.
33:09
Have you or have other people noticed anything like that going
33:13
on with Trump,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: either from the first administration,
33:15
SPEAKER_01: from the campaign trail,
33:16
SPEAKER_01: or during this time?
33:17
SPEAKER_01: On TV, the portrayals that we see...
33:20
It feels like sometimes there's a little bit of less energy,
33:24
a little bit more meandering.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if you've seen that or anyone is talking about that.
33:29
I think there is a definite focus on that perhaps more than
33:33
there was in his
33:34
SPEAKER_00: previous term because he's definitely aged.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: He's four years older.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: And we just recently had a president where a lot of the Washington, D.C.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: press corps is saying, what did I personally miss?
33:46
SPEAKER_00: How did I miss this?
33:47
SPEAKER_00: And so there is additional focus in that way.
33:50
I myself was on the campaign trail in the last two years of
33:52
Biden's administration.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't at the White House.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: And there were questions about what they weren't seeing there.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: But I was at that debate and was, frankly, I noticed he'd slowed down.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: He talked more slowly.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: But I, too, was very taken aback.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: I did not see that at some of his other campaign events that I'd been at.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there are people are definitely trying to reflect that.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't seem as sharp as he did during his first administration.
34:40
But it's really hard to say because there's that four year gap
34:42
in the middle.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: There were questions, of course, whether he's more exhausted.
34:46
Sometimes he looks like he's definitely more tired and he's
34:49
aged visibly his appearance.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: But he is four years older and 79 years old.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: So it does feel like it has gotten worse.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: But.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: To the extent, it's really hard to gauge specifically.
35:00
But if you see videos of him at an event during his first term
35:03
and an event during
35:04
SPEAKER_00: his second term,
35:04
SPEAKER_00: he's not as sharp and he does go on longer tangents.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, cognitive decline is a natural product of aging.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: It isn't it isn't a disease.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: I keep think people want to say he has some actual disease.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: We may never know.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: But certainly you're right.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: As you approach 80,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
35:21
four years in your late 70s towards 80 is a lot different than
35:24
four years in your,
35:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:26
SPEAKER_01: say with Obama.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: Obama obviously turned gray in office.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: That was quite visible.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: But you don't get that cognitive decline.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
35:33
you just wonder if people who are in the room are noticing that
35:35
it sounds like
35:36
SPEAKER_01: maybe some of those some of those things are popping up a little bit.
35:40
We do sometimes look and say he's still going on this topic and
35:43
it's just so far
35:44
SPEAKER_00: off from where he started.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And that raises questions.
35:47
But he's always kind of been like he calls it the swerve or
35:50
he'll he'll like play with it.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: But it's obviously that he can't keep his train of thought.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Sarah,
35:55
SPEAKER_02: as a White House reporter or a politics reporter,
35:59
you must have contacts either inside the administration or an
36:02
administration
36:02
SPEAKER_02: adjacent.
36:03
Do you get any sense that the people around the president are
36:05
worried about this?
36:06
SPEAKER_00: You know,
36:07
it is tricky because I get the sense that they're worried
36:10
because they won't talk
36:11
SPEAKER_00: about it.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: That is where I see it as a bigger question.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: I think the evasiveness of it is the real head turner here.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And I said it was a swerve.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: He calls it the weave.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure I correct myself there.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: I know.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: I know.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: That's not the word.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: But with that said, as we talk about this, I think that
36:30
SPEAKER_00: They've become more aggressive in their denials.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And that also is something that stands out to me.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Behind closed doors,
36:38
it seems like there's a very tight knit group here and they
36:41
will do anything for
36:42
SPEAKER_00: this president.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
36:43
SPEAKER_00: we've seen a lot of lying from the podium,
36:45
but we've also seen a number of other people in the in the
36:49
president's vicinity who
36:50
SPEAKER_00: are willing to lie for him to reporters,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: to the American public.
36:54
And so whether it's his health or other things,
36:57
this is a very close knit.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: group that is completely united behind the president.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: And if any of us watched any of the cabinet meeting from,
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I think,
37:04
SPEAKER_01: yesterday,
37:05
SPEAKER_01: like,
37:05
it doesn't seem like any of those people are going to come out
37:07
and reveal anything
37:08
SPEAKER_01: negative about this person.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Nope, definitely not.
37:11
I mean,
37:11
it's why they make the actual White House physician available
37:15
to answer questions.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was interesting.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: They,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: this week,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: put out a statement from his previous term,
37:19
SPEAKER_00: White House physician,
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Ronnie Jackson.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, this is the healthiest president in U.S.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: history and
37:28
SPEAKER_00: was a paraphrase of his actual statement.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
37:30
why are they going back to his previous doctor who hasn't been
37:34
the White House
37:34
SPEAKER_00: physician in years,
37:35
SPEAKER_00: has had other issues with his record,
37:37
SPEAKER_00: and is now a sitting congressman?
37:40
SPEAKER_00: But he says he's still consulting with the White House physician.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: And so they turned to him to put out statements as well,
37:45
SPEAKER_00: which I thought was additionally very strange this week.
37:48
As a fellow ER doc,
37:50
Ronnie is so disappointing to those of us in ER who talk to
37:53
each other.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like this guy, you know.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: The hyperbole also is telling.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:58
It feels like statements like that just on health issues in
38:01
particular seem like
38:02
they would just draw more scrutiny like as the only thing they
38:05
accomplish.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: It's really something.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: You can't say he's the most healthy president in history.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Just, I mean, based on history.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, where does this go next?
38:15
SPEAKER_00: It really depends on what we see from the president.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
38:19
SPEAKER_00: this past week,
38:20
the bruise was so obvious on his hand and the questions about
38:24
his ankles continue
38:25
SPEAKER_00: to come up.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: I think there'll be additional scrutiny of him moving forward.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: I think there already is questions about how he walks,
38:33
SPEAKER_00: if he's not walking always in a straight line,
38:35
SPEAKER_00: but not everybody can.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I myself don't.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: But
38:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of things that he does and it's all caught on camera.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: And so that is where the additional scrutiny will continue to come up.
38:46
You know,
38:47
the president himself has not been directly asked about his
38:50
health.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is something that is interesting.
38:53
Sometimes we talk about the president's health and I think a
38:55
lot of reporters here in D.C.,
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Find it a little lowbrow.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: But after the last administration,
38:59
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
38:59
SPEAKER_00: well,
39:00
SPEAKER_00: this is actually a problem that we aren't bringing this up more.
39:02
So that is also something that I would love to see happen in
39:06
the near future.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Just what is he doing with the makeup on his hands?
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Mr. President, what's going on there?
39:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not the disease, it's the cover up, right?
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Had to get that one in.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Literally and figuratively.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about it.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
39:18
For folks who are listening,
39:19
if you want to follow Sarah on X,
39:21
it's at Ewall Weiss.
39:22
And you can continue to read her reporting and reporting of her
39:25
colleagues at thedailybeast.com.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: All right.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Well, that was a great conversation, Rob.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: I think this isn't going to go away.
39:36
I think the storyline of Donald Trump's very obvious
39:40
deteriorating health is going
39:42
SPEAKER_02: to keep coming up and up.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: And I suspect we're going to be talking about it again.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
39:46
SPEAKER_01: I do.
39:46
And I think what Sarah shared with us is that the evasiveness
39:51
and the defensiveness
39:52
SPEAKER_01: of the White House is really what is telling to her as a reporter.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: We're not reporters.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: We're a couple of people who do advocacy and talk about shit.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: But we're not reporters.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: She is.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: She's covered all this stuff.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: And that seems important to me that she's getting that sense.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: We've
40:07
Heard tell from other reporters and saying,
40:09
well,
40:09
we don't think they care so much.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Sounds like Sarah thinks they kind of do care.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And that should be something they stay on.
40:14
I also hope people in the White House press corps do start
40:17
asking the president
40:18
SPEAKER_01: directly,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:20
SPEAKER_01: how he's doing.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Quick check in.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: We haven't seen that.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And that would be nice to see them do because I think, you know.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: We get to know.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: Have you watched one of the White House press corps?
40:29
SPEAKER_02: It's it's getting the questions are such softballs from.
40:33
Well,
40:34
Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend is one of the lead
40:36
questioners,
40:36
right?
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Like that seems like a problem.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: That seems like a real problem.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: You know,
40:41
it's just it's not that all reporters there and not that all
40:43
the questions are bad,
40:44
SPEAKER_02: but it is like.
40:45
They have populated it with so many propagandists that the line
40:50
between what's
40:51
SPEAKER_02: going on in there and,
40:52
SPEAKER_02: like,
40:52
what's going on in the production room and Fox News seems like
40:55
it's really
40:55
SPEAKER_02: blurring.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: But, yeah.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: So, anyway.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, everyone, for listening in.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: I know the beginning part of this was pretty bleak.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully the interview kind of got a little bit lighter, maybe.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: But times are dark, and I guess we all have to face that reality.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: But I think on that, Miles, if you could read us out.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll do that.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: Today's episode was written by Dr. Rob Davidson and me, Miles Baker.
41:18
It was produced by Amelia Dillenschneider and Joel Bryson,
41:22
editing by Darian Batigan.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Our music is by Annette Somerset at Duneflower Productions.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed today's show,
41:28
SPEAKER_02: please subscribe and leave us a rating on YouTube,
41:30
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41:31
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41:31
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41:33
SPEAKER_02: Your support helps others discover the podcast.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: You can also follow Paging America on Substack.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Physicians, your voice matters.
41:39
Join the fight for better American health care by becoming a
41:41
member of the
41:41
SPEAKER_02: Committee to Protect Health Care.
41:43
SPEAKER_02: Visit committeetoprotect.org to learn more.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: Great to see you, Rob.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: Talk to you soon.