Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / #72 - Flannery Davis Love

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#72 - Flannery Davis Love · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, fam?
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lauriello, and I am so excited to bring you guys today's episode.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Boulderite Flannery Davis Love is finally on the podcast.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited we were able to bring this conversation to you guys.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Flannery, for those of you who do not know, is a two-time Longs Peak FKT holder.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: She did it in the same year.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Someone took, took her record, she went back and got it um creating, creating the lure of what legends are made of um.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: On top of that, she qualified in 2024 for the us olympic trials marathon and raced um at the olympic trials in orlando, florida.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: On top of that, she raced and uh qualified in the top or ran into the top 10, um at the U S mountain running championships at snowbird Cirque, surrey, snowbird Um.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: And as if there's, as if she couldn't have done more.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: She also ran top 10 at the Pikes Peak marathon, which I know she still has some unfinished business with.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: So we'll hope to hope to bring her back to that race.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Um, flannery is an amazing human.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Uh, she has a really cool job as well.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: She comes from a different background as a soccer player, which I thought was very unique.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I myself, coming from a background of soccer which is a little bit more non-traditional.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: It's a great conversation, it's very uplifting and I think you guys are going to really enjoy it.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: So, without further ado, none other than Flannery Davis Love it's time.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: We are live, people, earth.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Listen up.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: The Steep Stuff Podcast is brought to you by Ultimate Direction USA.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I am so excited to be partnering with Ultimate Direction in 2025 as the official hydration solutions partner for the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 2:41
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• 2:44
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• 2:50
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• 2:52
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• 3:02
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• 3:03
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• 3:13
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• 3:29
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• 3:33
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• 3:34
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• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Have a great rest of your week.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, and uh, check out ultimate direction.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Flannery Davis love.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the steep stuff podcast.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I'm doing so.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Great Thanks for asking.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I'm really honored to be here.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how's your day going?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Been okay.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually on the Western Slope, where I grew up, visiting my folks, so taking advantage of the sunshine and the non-single-digit temperatures that we've been getting totally bombarded with in Boulder, um, so I'm I'm grateful to have some sunshine today, yeah, Nice, I'm jealous.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: We finally got a warm day in the Springs.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: It's like 50 today, but like yesterday it was.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: It was brutal.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: It was so cold.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I don't want to get out and strain.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: The treadmill has been my best friend the last few weeks.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: It's been brutal For sure.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So thanks so much for coming on.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we could finally have a conversation.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I told you this before we started the episode.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I've had so many people reach out to me.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: You're popular, so I definitely am so excited to finally have a conversation with you.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: There's a lot to talk about, I think, for fans that might not be familiar with you.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Maybe like dive into, just give us a little like five minutes synopsis on your background, maybe talk about your experience in the soccer realm and things like that.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, more than happy to.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: My journey into running too is pretty untraditional, nonlinear, you could say.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: So I'll try to keep it brief, but I actually did not grow up as a runner.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: I was always really big into soccer, starting when I was about 11 years old.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: It kind of became my main passion and from there on out my goal was to play division one soccer.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: So I was really fortunate to have parents who could support me in that and went to training camps and recruiting camps and was in things like I'm not sure if people are familiar with in the running world, but like Olympic developmental programs and kind of higher elite clubs.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: So, all to say, that did all of that through middle school and high school and ended up going to college to play soccer division one soccer in California for a pretty small liberal arts school, um part of the WCC.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: So at the time we played schools like Santa Clara, byu, portland, um Loyola, marymount, pepperdine, things like that.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Um, the short story with that is that I mean it was a dream come true.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I'd worked really hard to get there, uh, and my college experience was not easy, um, very much.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Like you know, you go from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond, and I don't think my story is super unique in that way.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Um, unfortunately, that was not the worst part of my career.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I had a really difficult coach.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I had some really difficult experiences.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: I got injured my sophomore year.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: So, all to say that, my college soccer experience definitely left some things to be desired and I felt pretty unfulfilled leaving, even though I finished my career in one piece somehow after a massive ankle surgery.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: But I kind of came out of college ready to transition into something new, being being like simultaneously proud of myself for making it through college and also saying, yeah, I need a break.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling pretty burnt out, not really feeling super excited to touch a ball.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: After that, um, kind of skip ahead a little bit and I find myself in Boulder.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: I had kind of dipped my toes into the running scene in the Bay area and had discovered like Solomon run club, which at the time back in 2017, was a big place to meet people and run like a couple of miles and you would drink beer together.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And then I moved to Boulder.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I'd gotten a job here and that's really when I think my place and my fulfillment in the running community got so much more.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: There's more depth to be had.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I found community, I found people who I like to run with and then I really started getting into the running itself and recognizing that I could be okay at it.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: So that used to give ahead a couple more years and I find myself going after this really audacious goal to run in the Olympic trials for the marathon um, and I think that's been a huge pivotal point for me and my confidence and esteem as a runner was kind of going from running a 248 marathon setting that goal, and then the following year, about 10-12 months later, running a 236 um such a highlight, you know, and in so many ways.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: And the trials was fun and such a meaningful experience.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: But the workup to get there has been really something I can like hang my hat on and I you know it's funny hearing you say people want to hear you on the pod, cause I still am like people, like who.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: How do people know who I am?
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Like I don't think I'm really that strong of an athlete and so I have to continue to remind myself, right, like you've shown up.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: You continue to kind of put your place, you know, or put yourself on the map and say that you want to work hard and compete and so a lot of reflections I have on that.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I'll stop for now because I've kind of gone off the deep end with that.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: But I love to compete, I love sport, I love the community around it.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Well, it's so special to have you on the podcast and I love your story and in fact I it's kind of weird so I had a catastrophic ankle surgery as well and I was also not in a.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I was also not on it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you're in.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Our story is a little bit different.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I my formative years I was a soccer player as well, all the way through high school and wanting to play in college.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I did not play at the d1 level in college um, but my, my career was kind of ended because of, uh, I broke my left ankle, bad surgery y, yada, yada yada and then found him running.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: But I just find it's funny Like I grew up in South Florida as a um, as a or uh, as a soccer player, if you will, and and a lot of the athletes that I competed against and with wound up going onto that D one you know, into the D one realm, playing collegiate level and some into the professional level or trying to get into the professional level.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: So it's it's a very interesting thing for me to see us finally see a soccer player.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Not too many people played soccer.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Johnny Luna Lima is a great example.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I think he's like the only other person I can name off the top of my head that like played soccer at a high level and then comes over to the trails and is a you know, is a formidable athlete.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: So that's very cool, it's.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: It's nice to meet another soccer player.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Same.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know?
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Do you like?
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: So you're, you're probably around my age.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Do you remember who Mia Hamm was?
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I've got a picture of her up there, my my sister.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: My sister and I are a few years apart and my sister is actually probably about your age and she was way more into it than I was and played soccer all the way up into the collegiate level and she won some contests from Kellogg's when we were kids where we got to go to Orlando and meet Mia Hamm.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Actually, she got to go to Orlando to meet Mia Hamm and I just tagged along.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: It's pretty cool.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: That's the one cool soccer story I have with like a professional soccer player.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, she was such a hero, right, Her?
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And Brandi Chastain I mean you just think about it.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: What was wild for me was going to having these heroes to then, when I was in high school and college, a lot of my teammates were then eventually on the national team.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if names like Lindsay Horan she was one of my teammates when I was growing up in Colorado playing and was on the national team Julie Ertz was playing for Santa Clara when I broke my ankle or tore my ankle ligaments.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: So it's just funny to like go from seeing your heroes and then all of a sudden you're playing against them and these huge names and it just goes to show the caliber too is so drastic in college as well.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I mean the, even at a D one level, like the difference between you know, like those level of players versus like the rest of us was just so interesting and really eyeopening and humbling.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Um, it's such a popular sport in our country.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: It's growing more popular every day, but uh, yeah, it was such an experience to be a part of.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I don't regret any of it.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: It was, all, I think, very informative and constructive for who I became as a runner Definitely.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Just out of curiosity, because growing up in South Florida for myself soccer is a big deal.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Just because there's a strong multicultural push there.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: A lot of South American countries are very well represented In Colorado.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Growing up especially Western Slope area was there good infrastructure in place to get good and have good competition?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Great question and the answer is no, there was not.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: It's probably grown a lot since I've lived here, but it's funny Part of my story was with soccer and competing and trying to find places to get seen and get recruited was that I ended up for most of my high school years traveling either to Salt Lake or Denver to compete in an infrastructure that could support and get me seen to play in college.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: So I played ODP in Utah.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: That's a whole story.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: That's a whole story.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: But that was like two years spent playing at Olympic developmental level, getting seen by other coaches and then eventually getting semi recruited to some degree to play for Rush, the club of the week.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I was also playing basketball at the time.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I'd be like leaving school early or missing basketball practice to go to Denver practice for 45 to 60 minutes and then drive home From the Western Slope.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, from the Western Slope, and then on the weekends, either flying wherever a tournament was or going back to Denver to play in games.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I look back on that and I asked my parents what were we thinking?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Do your parents were safe.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, the fact that they were willing to do that.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I will never take that for granted.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit bewildering to think about how much time we just spent, you know, trying to achieve this thing.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I feel really I can never be, you know, more grateful for that and their support in doing that.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: It's so cool.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you don't meet too many parents that are like so and like invested into it.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: That's how my mom was.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: My mom was very much one of those people that like traveled every weekend with my sister, sometimes with me I was a bad kid, so not as much, but to my sister, you know, my sister sometimes with me I was a bad kid, so not as much but to my sister I traveled all over the place and all over the time to play soccer and play sports.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's pretty cool.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, an immense privilege, right, I recognize that a lot, that I lived in a middle-income, middle-class family where we were able to do that and I wasn't required to work.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Where we were able to do that and I wasn't required to work, my parents said, okay, well, eventually maybe you'll support your way through college with a scholarship, which was just a wonderful thought.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: But that I do also recognize that there's so much privilege in how I got to grow up.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: As you get older, you just become wiser and realize that your experience isn't what everybody else has, and so, recognizing where I did have some immense leaps and bounds that a lot of kids don't get, I try to really appreciate.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's amazing.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: It's such a cool story.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Let's bridge the gap to Boulder a little bit.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: So you'd moved to Boulder and can you talk?
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of fans in Boulder.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: I've talked to an enormous amount of athletes in Boulder Can you talk maybe a little bit about the infrastructure that's in place?
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: As someone that is new to the trails and then you come to Boulder, you start training and there's just amazing trails and just infrastructure in place to be able to develop and get good and that seems like very much an aspect of your story Maybe talk about not just the community but just everything, how it came together to, kind of like it's really pushed you to new heights, if you will.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Boulder is such a unique place for a variety of reasons, and I know others who probably listen and live in Boulder understand that just the mere terrain and topography of the area is a key element to growing as an athlete, I mean in terms of steep stuff, right, that is like the number one thing that I think is very unique to Boulder is there's really nowhere to go but up if you're in the open space, and so having a backyard where there's Green Mountain, bear Peak, south Boulder Peak, the skyline, I mean, you can just start going up very quickly.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: And there's such a variety of run groups and people who are running those mountains year round when, previous to moving to Boulder, I would never one run at night by myself alone on a pavement like a paved road.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden you go into the middle of winter in Boulder, colorado, running at night up a mountain, and it just changes how you think about it and it's a very relative statement to go from being, oh my gosh, I'm never going to run past you know outside pavement to saying, well, I'm never going to run this mountain at night, to saying, well, I guess I'll run this mountain all year long, um.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And then you just get better at it.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Because you're doing it at night, you're pushing yourself with other athletes around you, you're wearing spikes, you're taking off spikes, you're cold, you're warm, um.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: So that in itself, I think, is really key.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: And then the diversity right.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: If you don't want to go up, then you go out and you go towards, like Tom Watson and the res.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: And I think something I would point out when you mentioned kind of my story in particular is that I've always, I think, as a new runner, been really drawn to both sides of the coin of running, where I love road running and I love trail running and because I'm in a spot where it's not my job, I get to really try and do both and try to have my cake and eat it too, where I really value training for a marathon, but I also really like getting away from that, especially after the trials.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: I was just so excited to not touch pavement or flat running for such a long period of time terrain, to do both at a very high level, and you can find those people to train with, regardless of that of of your scope and and where you want to be, um, but that's definitely a huge part of Boulder.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's why so many people come come here.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: It's just an incredible and unique setting.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Do you have like?
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Are you more of a solo runner?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Do you like running by yourself more, or do you have like training with a group of other of other gals and guys to uh to push you along?
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I it's funny I tended to be more of a solo um trainer, especially when I'm um, especially when I'm training for a race.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Um, I was training with a group called rise running um uh, which was no Rojas.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: She was my coach before the race that I qualified for the trials at and I really enjoyed that, because I haven't run a marathon since the trials, I haven't been training with that group as much.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: But I really hope to find a good group of women to push me in flat running especially.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I definitely think I sit in a weird middle ground where I'm not a 245 marathoner but I'm not a 230 marathoner, and there's a lot of people in those two camps in Boulder, but the 235, 236 is this kind of enigma.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And so I it's funny, you ask, cause I'm trying to find groups of people who I can train with, where I can be a rabbit for folks but where I can also have a rabbit Um, and I think that involves some volume.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Right, there can't just be two of you, Cause then it's always going to be one person pushing the other, um, or finding, you know, someone who has a different skillset as you.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: But all to say that, yeah, I think I've definitely trained more solo and kind of lone wolf in the past and I've been trying to figure out groups to train with who can kind of also fill my cup in the in the trail and the road running scene.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Um, I think a really cool shout out I'll give is to Andy Wacker, um, who's started the trail team in Boulder and he's really trying to do that and I I've been meaning to get back to him cause I I'd love to start training with them again.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I kind of did a quick, like a quick little appearance and was training with them for a bit and then my training schedule changed.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But all to say that he has such a diversity of people showing up who want to ski, like, do ski mo, do road running, do trail running, um, and so I really kind of give him a you know, a head nod for starting that in an area where it's really prevalent.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I well, I mean giant kudos to Andy, andy's the man, and just not just to have first out hall of famer in our sport, but like, just what he's building as far as community goes, it's just insane.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I need to reach out to him too.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Actually, something regarding the trail team, but yes, just put that on my list of things I got to do for today, so it's really interesting.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: The training aspect, because you really do fit into two camps.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, you are an extremely elite mountain runner and we'll talk about your 2024 results in a little bit.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: But just from an Olympic trials perspective, I mean, 236 is something that is a very elite time, that is very solid, and you're relatively new to distance running in a lot of ways.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Obviously, we'll talk about the trials in a second, but like, do you want to continue to whittle that time down?
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Like, do you have aspirations to go back?
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Uh, and what is it?
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: 2028?
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this is.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: It's such an interesting place to be in now that I have run that time.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I was like a competitive athlete my whole life.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: There is some reflection and pressure to say is that, was that a fluke, Was that something I could do again?
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And it's really hard to not get lost in your own head around that result and then the pressure to do it and then say, okay, yeah, I can kind of relive that, I can validate myself in that space and get better.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: And of course I have goals to try and whittle that time down to your, you know, to your point.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I think the sky's the limit, um, in terms of my potential, and I try to remind myself of that when I start to negatively motivate myself.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Um, but I still feel very new at this, um, and yeah, I don't think it's.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I'm past the days where I'm, you know, going from like running my first marathon was three hours and 28 minutes to a 303, to a 254, to a 248 to a 236.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Like, I'm not going to be taking off 45 minutes any longer, but I do think I've started to hone in on okay, clearly, this is something I can continue to get better at and I'm starting to notice where my weaknesses and my strengths are, where I have this actual, interesting, I think, oppositional trajectory from most roadrunners, where I kind of went backwards in distance and I started in the ultra world.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't go immediately into hundreds, but my first big run ever was dirty 30.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I ran a 50K.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I hated it, I was, I thought it was terrible.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Um, then I ran like a hundred K.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I ran never somewhere a couple of years later.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Then I ran Leadville a couple of years after that and then I started kind of working my way back down into really focusing on the marathon, like I had run marathons here and there, but I've never I'd never truly focused on that distance.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: And so instead of your more typical collegiate athlete who goes like mile 5k, 10k, half marathon, marathon, I've kind of gone backwards.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: So, all to say, that my strengths have really been endurance and that my body actually starts to warm up, starting like mile 12, 13, where when I was running McCurdy's, the race where I qualified for the trials, I said that to you know, the people with me I was like, wow, I finally feel warmed up and then I could sustain a pace that maybe people coming from the opposite direction might have a harder time saying oh, can I run six minutes, six minute miles from a half marathon to a marathon?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: For me it was much easier to bridge that gap.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: My weaknesses, however, are that I struggle at the 10K, 5k distance to go much faster than my marathon pace.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: So that's just kind of an example of where I'm hoping to get a lot stronger and to hone in on my weaknesses.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Now that I have this base, now that I know I can perform at an elite level, it's really starting to dissect the smaller improvements and hopefully going right from a 236 to a 235 or 234.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Can that turn into a 233, 232?
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the limit is or what the ceiling is for me, but I like to believe that there is more in the tank, and it's really inspiring in the women's running scene right now in that you've got people like Kira D'Amato, sarah Hall, who are in their 40s and their late 30s, and so I get really excited that I have, hopefully, many good years ahead to keep trying to whittle that down.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: And 2028, I really do hope is in the picture for me to try to compete at the trials again.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're still obviously so young, you have so much time, but I think a lot of that, too are you.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Have you started?
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Cause a lot of it, too, is what it's.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: It's a, it's a math problem and it's also figuring out more, getting more efficient with nutrition.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: There's like there's a few different things that you can do to obviously excuse me with all that down.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Are you working with like a coach specifically for those?
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: For those things?
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Right now I'm kind of being self-coached, um, kind of taking Right now I'm kind of being self-coached kind of looking at past training plans, looking at what I've gained a lot of success from in past training plans with past coaches no-transcript, that support and it's just figuring out who that person could be.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And to kind of go back to your other question what kind of training environment could push me as that more solo training runner could push me, um, as that some more solo training runner?
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, I think I could really benefit from being pushed by a bigger group, Um and so kind of finding that, especially in Boulder, it's interesting.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't think it would be very hard and at times it's felt challenging to find a group that really fits the bill, especially as this hybrid trail and road runner.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, are you, um, all right?
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Are you All right we can transition to the trails?
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about that too, like as far as the mountain running scene.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you've had so many impressive results in 2020.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Actually, you know what Hold on Before we go to the trail.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I do want to ask one more question.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Would you, do you like marathon training?
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: It's got to be so brutal on your body.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I've done one marathon block in my life and I hated it.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I'm much more a 10K, probably a 10K to a half marathon guy.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Marathon is just so far and so painful.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Maybe talk about that a little bit on.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: How do you look forward to that type of training?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: yeah, great question.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Um, I think it's such two-tone.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: It's such a two-toned thing.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Uh, I enjoy the structure of it so much and I think that goes back to being such a competitive athlete my whole life is.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's really nice to have somebody else telling you what to do and knowing exactly what you're doing and working towards a goal and having a focus.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I think as athletes, we really crave that, and so I have to kind of take a step back sometimes and not be so obsessive and rigid around my training schedule, because I can really get into this daily routine of I need to get these miles and I need to get this workout in and life happens and you have to be okay with that.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: But there is something that fuels me and energizes me when I am in a really intense training block for a marathon.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: On the other side of that, it is really intense and really rigid and it can be exhausting and fatiguing.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I've learned that I actually really like training for marathons in the late summer.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I love getting up early to beat the heat and you feel like you have the whole day ahead of you and you can get 12 miles in before 8am without it being freezing.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: So I really liked that aspect and I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I was.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: When I was training for McCurdy's I was so worried I was going to miss the trail scene and I think part of it was that I had this goal of I want to make the trial, so I was willing to kind of give up trail time and two was that just I did enjoy it and enjoyed the higher volume and working towards a goal, but I think my body was definitely pretty tired for a lot of that block.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I was sleeping really well, thankfully, and I will say then, after making the trials on, you know, that was October of 2023.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Um, then I kind of took two weeks off and started training immediately for the Olympic trials in February and that was incredibly difficult for me.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Training through the winter I already don't like over the holidays the worst winter, oh, so hard.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I'm a skier too, so I'm also kind of was giving up part of my ski season.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Um, I I got sick a lot.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: It was the holidays and I was really burnt out training for the trials.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Um, and so I took a really big step back after that because I recognized my, my body and my mind this time, unlike McCurdy's, where I just felt my body breaking down, which I feel like is normal for a high intensity marathon training plan I felt my mental stamina was also breaking down and so I took a big step back from marathon training.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: After that and I think that is something a lot of us as runners have to come to terms with is listening to both our bodies and our minds, and that is kind of segue nicely.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: What was what led me to focus more on trails going into 2024.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And kind of saying I'm not even sure I want to run a marathon for the remainder of the year.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: And you smashed it Before we get to trails.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I just have one more question about because I'm so curious about the Olympic trials Because most of the people I've spoken to that have gone, like most of the people that I know that have gone to the trials to actually race.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: It's been like three times they've gone, two times they've gone.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: You're the first person I've talked to that.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: This was your first time.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: What was that like standing on that start line?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Was that terrifying or was it exciting?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: What was that like?
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an experience I'll never forget, definitely a core memory.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Hopefully more to come, um.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: But I think the one thing that I always mention to folks is that going into the trials felt a lot different than going into my qualifier Because at the end of the day, there's a lot of parameters and criteria for who makes the Olympic team that, just objectively, I was not going to make.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So knowing that and knowing my fitness level and the winter I'd had, I got to go into the trials with a lot of weight lifted on pressure.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: There was no expectation for me to make the team.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: The expectation was to go, enjoy it and do it and, you know, work as hard as I could and just really be present with that emotion and the gratitude that I got to be there until that line.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So the environment for me felt like a parade, like that was my Olympics was to get to be there.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I had friends who flew in, my whole family came out.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: It was just such a cool experience to have them all there and really get to run by them several times because it was a looped course, it was so hot.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: That was also something I had to remind myself of, not just suffocating in the heat, with a 10 am start time and just being like you get to be here, pour some more water on yourself and the race generally feeling okay.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: I actually had a decent race until about mile 18 and then the wheels fell off and my calves were out of this world.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: But I digress.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that experience was super cool from the standpoint of no real expectation to perform, which, for me, is also good.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: I I'm constantly putting that pressure on you need to perform, you need to win, you need to be number one.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: So it was actually a really good exercise for me to say, oh, you just get to be here and be present and enjoy the experience, just try to do that plan.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: And the start line was a cool, cool experience because I had not really it had not set in to me what was happening and we're on the start line.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: But you know, all of these athletes are in front of me, like the people who are going for the team, these people you look up to in the sport.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: The cameras are rolling and the announcer says you guys or you women are the top 200 marathon runners in the country and I was like, oh my gosh.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm one of those people, um, so that was where it really hit me.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: What was happening was on the start line.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I had not really processed what was going on until it was about to start, um, and that really set the tone for that enjoyment and that presence of oh yeah, like this year in 2024, you are one of the top 150 to 200 women marathon runners in the country, and life will continue to happen and maybe you'll get that again, but you don't know for sure.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So right now, enjoy it, just enjoy that moment Soak it in.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: I can imagine that experience Like it's.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: So epic, I don't know the idea of representing Team USA, whether that's on the trails or whether that's in the Olympics it's pretty damn cool.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: And then just getting to be there with your peers and you earned that spot to race against these ladies's pretty exciting.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You know it's something you might never get again, something you could have many times over, you know.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: So it's pretty cool yeah, it was amazing.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Let's talk trails.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, your 2024 season like I am like, if you show up to broken arrow 46k like as fit as you were for some of these like efforts in 2024, your peers should be absolutely terrified.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Like I'm so excited to cheer you on in 2025, like I.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: So, let's, let's talk, let's talk us.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Mountain running champs you, you went top 10 at snowbird there, which is a tough course, like it's a nasty hard course.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Um, and against, like some of the best ladies in the world like grayson's world class, obviously, and many of the other ones were as well.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Like Grayson's world-class, obviously, and many of the other ones were as well.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: What was that race like to you?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Like, how was that?
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, first of all, you're you're so kind, your words mean a lot.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I I am humbled because this sport has grown so much and I do not consider myself in that caliber, which is a whole other can of worms.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: But to that point, right, showing up to Snowbird was this idea of I wanted to start putting myself out there and competing against the best, where, kind of coming full circle, before I'd run McCurdy's and the Olympic trials, I not only didn't think I could compete, it's almost as though I had this like mental block that I didn't want to get to a place with running where competition was everything and I was trying to keep running at this really fun level, even though inherent to my being is that sport and competition go together and that's okay.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: And so there was almost this reintegration of recognizing that I could have a different relationship with running than soccer and still want to compete, so like that theme is kind of something to keep in mind with me and my journey into running and into competing at a higher level.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: So then, signing up for the 15K USATF champs was to test that out and say, okay, I want to try to get back into trails, I want to test myself at these shorter distances, once again kind of working backwards.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Unlike most people, I didn't have really a lot of interest in going back into hundreds and ultras yet I wanted to test myself on these punchier efforts and also see if that would help me get better at shorter road distances as well.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Right, focusing on higher intensity speed training.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: So going into Snowbird it was kind of like we'll see what happens, enjoy it, but compete.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: And knowing he was going to show up and saying, okay, well, just show up and see what you can do, I definitely from the get go was like wow, this is going to be quick and it's such a punchy course.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: But true to what I know about myself, I got stronger as the race went on and over the last two or three years in particular, I would say my downhill competency as a trail runner has improved tremendously.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: This goes back to what we mentioned about Boulder.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: When you're running Green Mountain in the middle of the night, in the winter, in the summer, all the time with other people, you just get better at running downhill on technical terrain.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: That mountain is so technical you don't get that almost anywhere else in the world or in the country, I should say.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: So I've gotten a lot better at downhill running and I really just tried to kind of take a nice measured pace on the up, not overextend myself, not redline too much, and then really send it on the way down, um, and to be completely honest, I didn't actually know where I was place, wise, um, I know I started to pass people kind of coming down, so I knew that I was making up ground, um, but then I still wasn't able to kind of catch a couple of girls who I saw in front of me, so I had no idea if I was like top 10 or top 15 or top 20.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: So when I crossed the line was really the first time that I realized I'd kind of gotten top 10.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: And it was cool to hear that people were like, wow, you did so good, like was that what you expected?
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: And I was like I tried to really not go in with any expectation but knowing that I wanted to be there and just compete against these other really high class women.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that I mean one thing I could say about Cirque races, as opposed to other races that I've done, like 27Ks and 30K races, like I don't know that 10K distance or that, like mountain classic distance is so difficult because, like, if you don't assert yourself in the race early on, it is very hard to catch people.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Like I'm impressed to hear you say that late in the race you're rolling people up, because that's not an easy thing to do and very rarely happens.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Um, like, if you don't put yourself in it's, it's also very easy to make mistakes too, you know, so it's, it's a tricky dance.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Those, those, those distances.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Truly and to your point.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: You know, it could also say that I wasn't pushing my threshold enough on the up right, that I had so much left in my in the gas tank on the down that maybe I was, you know, preserving a little too much and if I had given a little bit extra effort on the uphill maybe I would have caught those girls on the down.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting, I'm still learning right, that 10k threshold in trail and road is so difficult and such a fine line of completely blowing your wad right um that's, that's it like you don't know if you're gonna blow up or not, right?
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, it's, it's uh I.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's why I don't know the cirque series races like I just happen to love so much, because, like I don't know, I feel like I can blow up and work.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe it like if it's a golden trail series race, if I blow up I'm not coming back, right.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: But if it's like something a little bit less in competition, if you blow up, usually you can try to come back a little bit.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: But if you do it in a Cirque series race, like I did it in Brighton, I completely blew myself up in the first three miles of the race.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: There's no coming back, you're dead, it's over.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: So it's fun.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Truly.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are great races.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: They've done such a wonderful job.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Another huge shout out to circ series.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: They're such fun races.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about pikes peak marathon, because I think that was an interesting one where, like you're someone going into this race?
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: You, sarah ghoul, uh, jennifer yaman, uh, there was quite a few ladies going in with the ability to go win that race this year, like christina wasn't, didn't come back.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: You know, like it seemed like the top, the top podium spots were like very, uh, a little more open.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: How much was it like kind of uh, I wouldn't say a mind fuck, but like how much was it like getting into your psyche because everybody told me this, like I've had people tell me like they should have just canceled the race because, like going to bar trail and back or bar camp and back, completely just like ruined it for so many people bar camp and back completely just like ruined it for so many people.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got to like find some zen with Pike's Peak, because her and I have a history and I will try not to go too far down this rabbit hole.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: The short version of this is that I actually tried to run Pikes Peak Ascent in 2019.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: And it also got revised the morning of 20 minutes before and we went to bar camp and that was the last time I tried to do.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Pikes Peak was that day and I told my I was.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: It's a very long story that we do not need to get into.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: We don't have time to but I was so mad in that moment.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: I was such a young runner and I was so I'd been so excited to test myself and then that race got changed and I was beside myself, which is says a lot about me, um, so I took a break and I was like I'm not going back to that race for a long time and then someone kind of got it in my head.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: You know, I think pikes be a really good race for you.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: You have such success at the marathon distance with the stamina and the endurance training that you have.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: You're a good downhill runner now and kind of the seed got planted in my head that I could really compete.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: And to be completely transparent, you're right, I was going into that race the marathon in particular knowing my strengths and endurance, trying to win, knowing it wasn't a Golden Trail Series race that year.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: So I was going to have to compete against some of the elite Africans the woman, I think, christina, you've mentioned, who wins almost every year.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, christina Masquerini.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: So there was an opening.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I kind of went in with this high hope and saying, yeah, I really want to compete at this race, knowing how high caliber it is and also knowing my history.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: So saying, yeah, I really want to compete at this race, knowing how high caliber it is and also knowing my history.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: So to now bring us back to 2024, to have it revised again the morning of was some cruel, sick humor.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: And yet the silver lining was that me as a person, even, you know, six years later, four or five years later, my perception and my wisdom kind of dealing with that was much different.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I was still very upset but I was like, what are you going to do?
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Like, and I expected it once again because of the history, the history I'd had in 2019.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I I said that the night before said they are going to change it 100% and everyone's like no they're not.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: They haven't done it yet.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like they're going to, they are going to revise it in the morning.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: So I grieved it and then I said time to move on, Cause you got to go run it, Um.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: So I changed my you know fueling strategy.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: I was like I'm gonna wear a belt, I'm not gonna wear a vest, and I just said, okay, it's going to be what it's going to be.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And I knew, kind of going into that race, that it was going to be a different challenge, Cause once again, my strengths in a half marathon distance versus a marathon are much different, Um, and I knew I was going to probably be working a little hard on the up Um, there's a lot of women with strong engines on the up.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: But then I knew I could catch people on the way down, Um, and that's kind of what happened Um.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: The way down, Um, and that's kind of what happened.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Of course, I was disappointed.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Um, if you go into a race thinking you might have a chance to win and you get fourth, you're not happy with fourth Um, but my mental capacity and distress tolerance around dealing with that experience for the second time is actually what I was most proud of, Um and again through that.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: You know what it's.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Just it's a bummer to me.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I have had so many.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: It's like I made the mistake of telling people I'm on the board of that race now and I have had so many people reach out to me and be like yo.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: This race needs to not be in september, it needs to be in august.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Like we need to move it back so that way it's not like interrupted by because, like like in August, I guess the the concern why they moved it from August to September was there was a concern of thunderstorms from, to the best of my understanding, and now it's the opposite, where there's concern of snow storms, with it being so late in the calendar.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: So I don't know.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I can't speak too much to it, yeah.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: In 2019,.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: It was hailstorms that canceled the race.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: It was the most outrageous hailstorm, breaking car windows and in the Springs I hear this is actually quite common.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: It was terrifying, but they, they canceled it.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: And the funniest part is that this year they only canceled or sorry, revised the marathon, which I was running, and in 2019, they only revised the ascent.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: So the marathon went on without a hitch in 2019, which I wasn't running, and the ascent went on without a hitch in 2024, which I was not running.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: So I've kind of just decided maybe we aren't ever.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: We're like Pikes and I.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: We're going to agree to disagree, probably for the rest of our lives.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Here's my guess Third time's the charm.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: If you don't go to Worlds, we'll bring you back in 2025 and it's going to go off perfectly.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: I think that's the optimistic way to look at it.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: We'll knock on wood yeah.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and that is I mean, oh my gosh.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: We're working on, because this year is going to be the 70th anniversary.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: We're working on not to hype it up too much and try and sell you, but we're working on having a really solid elite field.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It's the seventh anniversary we'll have.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: You know, we'll see what shakes out with who's going to worlds and who's not.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: But whoever's not going to go to worlds, we're going to be trying to try to be recruiting them, get as many athletes over there as possible to make it, make it, you know, an extra fun.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, you know, and it's.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: It's funny because you're not the only person I had, like Darren Thomas.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: So many people say to me like dude, they changed it, and changing it just like completely took me out of the race, like I just wasn't as excited about it.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: So it's a bummer.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: And yet also like I'm not just saying this because you're on the board I do have this newfound maturity to recognize that this is a massive organization who has to make decisions based on everyone involved.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And do I always agree with the decision-making?
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: No, but am I the one organizing this race?
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: No, I am just a participant, I'm one microcosm, and it's selfish and narrow minded to just say that this is affecting me, um, and that there could have been such larger risk and harm done to other people by continuing the race the way it was.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: So I recognize that, even though it wasn't what I wanted, even though it's frustrating, this is a massive organization, it is big.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I don't really blame you, because the first thing that goes to my mind and I think about is the elite field, because I'm an athlete and I'm like yeah, but at the end of the day, like yes, there is people running significantly slower on the course and we have to be mindful of that.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: But yeah, Um, all right.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: So before we were limited on time here, I want to pivot to longs peak, because I think that was one of the things I had just so many people reach out and be record.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: And then you went back and like you and it's so hard to do this you went back and lowered it by like 15 minutes, which, a month apart, like we got to pave this out and talk about it.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Like let's talk about the first, the first record getting, and then we'll talk about, like, your motivation to go back.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this, yeah, this was probably the highlight of my year for a variety of reasons, and I think it's important the way you've structured this conversation because now I can offer insight within my race schedule of how this worked.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: So, full transparency.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: The first time I went out for the FKT, which was the week before a basin Cirque series, which was the week before a basin Cirque series which was always supposed to be a kind of a primer for pikes.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: So I'm really kind of honing in on all my training because I want to go and I want to compete to win at pikes.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: And so I kind of say to my husband, who was kind of helping me at the time you know, what should I kind of plan to do?
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: And Longs is in our backyard, I love that mountain.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: I've been up at quite a few different times.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: I haven't gone up the standard route since I first moved here, um, usually doing some variation, um.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: So we kind of decide let's go up and keep the FKT in the back of your head but treat it like a training effort.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: And it was kind of trying me, it was kind of like me trying to trick my brain into saying work hard, but work hard because it's an effort for something else, not just because it's an FKT.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: So I have a lot of thoughts around that.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: But to just say that I go and I kind of do the effort because I wasn't sure and I was a little uh, I think, insecure around.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Could I even be close to what the FKT currently was?
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Felt like a low-hanging fruit, but you also don't want to overextend and be overconfident.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: So I go and I'm feeling really good and I picked a perfect line, and the whole time I'm running I feel really leveled and I feel like I'm working hard but I'm working smart.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: And on the way down I remember thinking to myself wow, this feels really good, I'm feeling really happy with this.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: And I had gotten kind of in my head a different time than what the actual FKT was.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I think I'd added an hour for some reason.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So I think the FKT was like 3.46 and I thought it was 4.46.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Running down and as I'm running down I'm realizing that I'm going to get it and I I like consciously backed off and so I look back on that and I think to myself there's a lot going on there.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: One you thought you were doing better than you.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Were that you that you could have done.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Two, you thought the FKT was different.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: You thought you were already slamming it out of the ballpark.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Three, I was training for a race and it was a training effort.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: But when I look back on that time, there are also a huge, there's huge vulnerabilities in that, which is, if you're going for an FKT, why not absolutely send it?
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Um, and I didn't learn that until, obviously, this all went, you know, went about happening, but you know, fast forward, right, so that that that pikes.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: That happened.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Um, initially was this training effort.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I went into a basin that weekend feeling pretty crummy actually, so I definitely put in a good effort.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Um, but I do remember thinking to myself I think I could have given that more and kind of like oh well, like I'm training for pikes, it is what it is.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: This was just supposed to be fun.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: So that's the first ever.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you want me to move into the second one.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Yet we have questions from me on that.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: No, no, take it away, take it away.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, then we fast forward, right, and Pikes doesn't happen as planned and I'm unfulfilled.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling like I have something left to give.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: I am feeling unsatisfied with the way that my season is ending and it just so happens that I think the week after Pikes maybe it was two weeks I'll have to go back and look.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: You might know another athlete in Boulder who had also had an unsatisfying end to her season.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I believe Emily Caldwell, who I've raced against in the past.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know her very well, but I see that she's gone after it, and another woman had gone after it as well.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not remembering her name right now, but she had a really good downhill and so I'd seen other people going after it, which I thought was really interesting because for a long time, no one had really touched Long's Peak.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: But I see that Emily gets it.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Um, and I'm in the middle of my work day and I'm just like, oh my gosh, and I realized in my head I'm like man, like why did you not push yourself more, even though it was a training effort?
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: And it's hindsight 2020, right, like where I was at in that stage, training for pikes, maybe that was a good decision for me, um, but then having this moment of realization that I could go back and that I wanted to go back because of the circumstance of my season, realizing also this other person went back and wanted to put in an effort as well because of the circumstance of her season, and that's the beauty of community and running is that you have these high caliber athletes and people wanting to push themselves in their own worlds, in their own spheres, and saying I want to go for something, and that pushes somebody else to respond.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Um, so I decide I'm like you know, I'm kind of going back and forth about it.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: I'm like is this?
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: It feels kind of petty.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Should I really go back for this?
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: And I was talking to you know people in my close circle, and one thing that really stands out to me was someone saying to me you know you're not sure where you're going to be next year.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: You don't know what's going to be happening, what you're going to be training for, just as you didn't know it was going to happen with pikes.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: And someone mentioned, like Anton Kupichka had mentioned this in his LA Freeway attempt of you know, why not go for it now, when you know you can, if you have the opening, go for it.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you Like live without regrets?
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: And that was a really pivotal moment for me in saying the opening's there, I have this opportunity, I'm fit for it, and I did not get it in pikes, why not go for it?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: And so I went and I found the good opening.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: It was the end of the season.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I knew that the good days on longs were getting tighter and tighter and tighter, and so I just decided I'm like, okay, I'm going to go do it.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: And the second time around, let me tell you, there was nothing left to give.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: I absolutely buried myself going for this.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Um like no, I I try very hard to like be honest around effort Cause I think there's some level of sandbagging that can be done in the community and saying, oh well, I could have done this and could have done that.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Of course, we can always be better, but I know for a fact that I gave every inch of myself that day, like I destroyed myself in that effort.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: And there was consequence to that one.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Unlike my line on the first time around, I was kind of missing my mark here and there because I was truly redlining the whole way up and some of my lines at the boulder field and then up the trough could have been better, but I was also working that much harder.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: So you're constantly once again measuring your threshold with the mental capacity to focus and like remember which way is the best way and most efficient way down.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: And on the way down I definitely stayed way too high on the trough.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: I kind of had to backtrack a little bit.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: But I've been looking at my watch and I was like I got this.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: She's got to keep moving.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Um really sent the downhill, coming back all the way to the key hole.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: Um, and as I'm getting back into the boulder field, I have not stopped for water thus far, but there was that intensity and that energy to say don't, you can't stop, don't stop.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: And I missed the water.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: So instead of going back, I just kept going, um, and I'm coming down, kind of off of, kind of towards the chasm lake junction and my body starts collapsing, like my.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: I was getting cramps in my legs.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Things were starting to fall apart very quickly.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: I fell on my face.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: This is how I know.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: I was getting cramps in my legs.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Things were starting to fall apart very quickly.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I fell on my face.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: This is how I know I was just absolutely destroying myself is that my body was like you are crushing us, but I just get back up, I huck my last gel.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: I just absolutely slurped down this gel and just absolutely sent it.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: I think if I'd been a little bit smarter around nutrition which we can get into, I would have had a little bit more left in the tank to give, but I truly did not.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I could not go any faster and I was definitely walking this tightrope of if I tried to, I was going to cramp up again and become like completely paralyzed, but somehow, some way is truly that effort where, to your point, like Cirque, I just held on long enough to say, okay, I'm gonna put this out there and try to run as close to a 315 as I can, and I think I ran a 319 and I was happy with it, so there's my story for you on my
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: fkts yeah, so the route itself, what is it?
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: It's like 10 miles with like 5500 feet or something like that, right, somewhere in that range.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think you're right.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Dude, that is like yeah, and so the way I think about it is like especially because when you're above treeline you're working so hard but you're moving fast, but not really that fast kind of thing.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: So it's how do I say this?
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: You have to be almost like on the edge with nutrition.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about your nutrition strategy and like, what did you do to yourself?
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Like with nutrition.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: So it's funny, like and this has been like so long ago now.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to like, look and see, but I'm pretty sure what I was doing, um, was a gel.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I think I was taking a gel every 30 minutes or so.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to look this up for you now that I'm remembering.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: But the thing actually that ended up being the biggest problem was hydration.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: That late in the season, once you get past treeline, there's really only one place to get water and if you miss it, you miss it.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: So the way up I think I purposefully said you don't need it yet, but on the way down, probably should have stopped.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: However, I wouldn't have broken three 20 if I'd stopped.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: I would have gone on the FKT, but I was really wanting to get under that three 20 mark.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Have gone on the FKT, but I was really wanting to get under that 320 mark Um, ideally like.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: I think that I think that three 15 can go it.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: There are so many strong women out there.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: I look forward to seeing people like Emily getting back out there other athletes with this very specific skillset who hone in their nutrition that it can go down Um.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think what I was doing, if I'm remembering correctly, was a gel.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I had probably a gel every 30, but yeah, I think what I was doing, if I'm remembering correctly, was a gel.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I had probably a gel every 30 to 35 minutes.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: I think I was taking like a a more in gel Um, and I had one.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I think I also started with one full bottle of the more in drink mix, which is by far my favorite thing.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: It's what I drank for all of McCurdy's um, a really high concentrated version of that Morton drink.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm sorry I'm not remembering more.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: No, it's fine.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: It's fine.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: No, I'm just so impressed that, like that, you took that much time off in such a like in a condensed route like 10 miles, and to take like I don't know, 15, it's like somewhere in the 15 minute range, like maybe more off, which is bananas.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: It's so crazy.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: So congratulations to that.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: That might not go down for a long time.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: You might be holding onto that record for for a minute.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: We'll see.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: There was definitely some room for it to get cut quite a bit from what it was at Um.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: I I think you know major kudos to Emily who has kind of who lit that fire right.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: It takes other people in the community for you to kind of say, hey, this could keep going, this could keep getting lower.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And I'm always humbled by the skill and the speed of this community and we'll see what comes of it.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: But I do think we're past the point of 15 minutes right Hours, getting cut off of the unsupported time.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Um, and to be honest, I think unsupported and supported for long doesn't matter too much.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: I think, as a kind of a purist, unsupported is, I think, the way to do it and it should be pretty synonymous with the supported time if you're kind of watching all the different parts of it and kind of controlling your controllables.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: But all to say that, I think it's going to be minutes right.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: If someone could get to 315, I think it's there.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: But I don't think we're getting.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: It's not going to just be chopping off these huge amounts of time anymore from that FKT.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Well, congratulations.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Do you have any other like FKTs on the horizon that you think?
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Obviously you know it's bad form to spray, but I'm just so curious.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: What you did on Longs was amazing.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it opened your eyes to.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Well, there's some other routes that might be kind of interesting.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else that spikes your attention at all?
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: I've not as been as gung-ho on the FKT train, I think as other folks, but after doing longs it definitely makes me think more about it and what I'd want to go after place for that.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: It's super fun and once again it can be a high motivator for people.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: But generally speaking, I'm just trying.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to kind of be more intentional around where I place my effort in this era of trying to compete and trying to show up against kind of high caliber athletes.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: This is where I'm trying to hone in and focus my time.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: So in boulder there's a ton of really hard fkts, one that will be really gnarly for me to ever get and and would be really fun as green mountain.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: It's just where I put a lot of my skills, but it there are some fast, fast women, especially on the uphill, that I'm just not sure I can keep up.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Well, keep up with.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: But on the down I think I could probably keep up for the most part.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: It just it'll take some concentrated effort to get that one because it's just so stout now and there's so many fast women in Boulder who've gone after it.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: So that's definitely one I've considered.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: There's a variety of others that I've kind of been chewing on, but nothing super concrete.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: So if you have any ideas for me, let me know.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: I was going to bring up the Grand just because I, you know, unfortunately, with the whole michael innocence, everything, it kind of like put a, you know, put a bad taste in everybody's mouth.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, dude, we gotta this is, this is.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: You know, there's just I'd love to see more like a high caliber mountain runners like, especially on the women's side, go, go, take a crack at it.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: You know, I think it was just at kareena anderson on the podcast and I was like, hey, you know, that's a be a cool idea because she wants to go after, like the matterhorn, um, but yeah, the grand would be cool.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's jen day denton that has the record on that.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: So, on um, on the grand.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, there's always some cool, especially at your caliber.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: You think about it.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, what, what, what, once you get longs, it's like what else?
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: High altitude like compels me.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: And then you know, obviously the grand is is like super complex and there's a lot of I wouldn't just say complexity to it, but it's just technicality.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: It makes it kind of funky, but, like you know, but I don't know, there's cool stuff.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Let's talk 2025, because I saw you on the.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: You're on the start line for Broken Arrow, like I said already, and you're on the start line for Soonapy, obviously those are just.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: One is June 1st, one is june, 14th june, I don't know, it's like the third, second or third week in june.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Um, what has you more excited?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: I know it's kind of a difficult question, but you know, yeah, I actually have already pretty clear, pretty clear plans around them.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Broken arrow is definitely my a race.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: Broken arrow is where I know I can compete, given my strengths.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm gonna be stronger.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Lap two uh, that's, that's where I'm going to start to really shine.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: Um, I do better as I go on right when son of peace and a P is definitely going to be more of a primer, more of a Cirque series style race with girls who just have much faster 10 K, five K speed than me, yeah, um.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: So going to compete, always um, but it's more of a primer to get me into a good position for broken arrow.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Um, but excited for both um and I did kind of just end up doing both of them because they're usatf races and seeing how those go, because I know that people will show up and it will be a place where I can compete and really be honest with myself about where my fitness is at um.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really excited for broken arrow.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: It was one of the first races I ever did coming out of college.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: I ran the 23 K in its second year and it was one of its snowiest years I had.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: A broken arrow is infamously known for its snowy years Um, but that will be pretty.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: A pretty full circle moment for me is running the 46 K, which at the time I was like no way am I ever doing that?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Um, and I've definitely had an aversion to two looped courses, um, but now, after doing McCurdy's, which was a nine looped course, I think I have at least some mental stamina to get through the obstacle of.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I have to go do this again.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Um, and just knowing that it's going to be, that race has just done such an incredible job of building itself Right and it's going to be such a high intensity weekend, I mean, I think every race that weekend is a is a championship race for something, literally Um.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: So just to be there and be a part of that right, it'll just be really fun to be there.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I can't speak highly enough about Broken Arrow, one of the good things about Soonipi too, and I just I think it fits your, your MO, with the looped courses.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Soonipi's two loops, so that could help you as well.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, cause it's um, I think that's the they, they.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: I think Tom made it that way or they had to make it that way.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: The world's up down, if I remember correctly, is going to be two loops.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: So kind of crazy, kind of dope, something to think about.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I'm just kind of understanding your motivator.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: Is it more the direct goal to get on a team, or is it more so?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Just how do I stack up against the best ladies in the country, if not the world?
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: You know it's an interesting question.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Um, it's this constant right balance of can I compete at that level and do I own it?
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: That that's what I'm going for, and do I shoot my shot just like I did with McCurdy's?
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Um, I think time will tell and how my summer goes and how I feel my fitness is going into late May, june, how all other things in my life are going, what stressors are there, what aren't?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Ideally going for a spot, I think would be really cool, and I won't say that's off the table.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, continuing on this goal of just putting myself in high competitive arenas and trying to work as hard as I can and just shoot my shot in that way and saying I deserve to be here against these higher caliber athletes, then I once even thought that I still, to this day, as we've talked about, have to retrain my brain into saying like that's a different, that's a different population I don't include myself in that and trying to lean in and say like no, you can't compete and you are competing.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: So I know it's not a super straightforward answer, but what I, you know, love to make worlds.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: Of course that'd be super, super cool.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: I do also have a fall marathon on deck Berlin, which would be the same weekend as world.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: But if I were to make the world's team, I mean I can run a marathon whatever.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Nice, nice so we'll see.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: I think that was a great answer.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: No, I love to hear it.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: It's because it's a tough thing to narrow down right.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: You're like you don't know what's going to.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: You know, cause I don't know these races, or I don't think people realize like the average person realizes like how complex it is to be able to go pull off something like that.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: Like fitness matters, especially for something that's a tulip course, like a broken arrow or something like that, fitness matters a hundred percent, right, or like 90%, and I think the rest of it's a tough person contest.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: It's like how much can I destroy myself?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: And and get to that point?
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: That's kind of like my thoughts.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: It's like a you know like, uh, usually the person that's leading the race in the first loop is not winning the race in the second loop, which is kind of wild.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: So some interesting thoughts on that yeah, um, yeah.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: No, I'm wishing you the absolute best.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Like I can't wait to do my free trial fantasy already.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: I'm excited.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: So let's talk.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: One of the things I thought was really interesting and I'm going to crack a joke here, I don't know, if you don't like this, we can cut it out.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny, because one of the things you do for a living is flannery, love therapy Is that correct?
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: And one of the things I was.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: You're a sports psych.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: And one of the things I was.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: It's it's your therapy.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: You're a sports sports psych, is that correct?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: It's one of the yeah, no great question.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: I I work in.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: Actually, primary care is my main job.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: So I work as a primary care, uh, therapist, which is a variety of things, not just sports related, but then I do also have a private practice which is sports psych focused.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, Gotcha.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I saw Flannery Love Therapy when I was doing the research for this and I was like dude, how funny would it be if it was like couples therapy, flannery Love Therapy, get it.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I saw a little play on words there.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: I was like that would have been creative.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: But no, for sports psych.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that a little bit, just because, I don't know, I just feel like it's so important, not just for you as an athlete, but be able, you know, being, I just think that mental aspect is just so slept on and it's just so important for performance.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: So maybe, maybe, talk about that a little bit.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the bread and butter of why I'm in this career.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, I always knew I loved psychology, always knew it was a really passionate area of mine from a young age and kind of that got lost in the weeds as I was becoming this highly intensive soccer focused adolescent and kind of got lost in the should have what ups.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: You know you should do a business degree.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: It makes more sense.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: What are you going to do Psychology degree?
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: And I really was just focused in on soccer in college and, ironically enough, as things are not going well and I am getting injured, I had to come to terms with how much of my identity was based in soccer and having to answer this question who are you without soccer?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: Was based in soccer.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: And having to answer this question who are you without soccer?
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: And after college that just got more, you know, difficult because all of a sudden no one cares that you play division one soccer.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: You're in a job, you're not doing that thing anymore.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: That brought you community, that brought you social status, that brought you endorphins right, there's unlimited good benefits to playing soccer and playing sports.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: But I had put so many of my eggs in that basket and, for lack of better words, I had something of a quarter-life crisis around this concept and recognizing that that was really scary and seeing it in other people in my life, other people across the country.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: At a macro level, there's some really, really interesting anecdotal stories and books about this.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: One of my favorites is called favorites is, and heartbreaking, I should say, is called what Made Maddie Run.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: Actually by a CU basketball player, kate Fagan, who I think has done an incredible job of highlighting how athletes are actually a vulnerable population when it comes to mental health, because when we think about athletes, we think of them as highly motivated, strong, persevering, high stamina.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: You think of all these traits, which are true when you get on the pitch or on the track or on the court, but underneath all that pressure, there's a lot of vulnerabilities that we cannot not perform and if we don't perform, we are failing not only in our sport but as people.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: So I can get off the deep end with this because it's something I have a lot of passion for and I've seen it affect so many people from lived experience and now in my professional clinical experience.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: So that lived experience is actually what informed me into getting into the field.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: Lived experience is actually what informed me into getting into the field, um, and I've always known, on the back of my head of the population I wanted to work with on a specific level, was athletes.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: Um, because it's really cool to get to blend both those things right.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: I now have this professional and lived experience to help address those problems.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: That feels really, really meaningful, um, so it's been fun to also be an athlete now, recognizing those impacts in my own community not just the clients in front of me, but other people in my life, people out doing ultras, people doing marathons, and there's just a generally a better level of openness around mental health.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: But I'm excited to be a part of it.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to continue that reflection for myself personally and to help others, especially youth.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to continue that reflection for myself personally and to help others, especially youth.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: I'm generally working with younger populations right now, but sport impacts all of us, especially in places like Boulder, colorado, for our whole lives.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: So definitely look at it more holistically than just performance enhancement from a mental health aspect.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Right, we're not just here to get you better as an athlete.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: We're here to think about who you are as a person and that an athlete is just part of that identity, multidimensional yeah.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting too because and I hate to say this because it's it sounds shallow and terrible, but, like some of the people I know with the worst mental health are athletes, and it's terrible to say.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: But like I and I, I don't know if it's that performance aspect of it or what it is, or just having the need to be as good as you possibly can, and when you don't measure up to that, you just crush yourself and it's like man, like this sport is supposed to be, the opposite of that.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: You're supposed to be empowered and excited and to go chase, you know big things, but it's like, when the performance aspect of it takes hold, like people either sink or swim, and I've seen, unfortunately, a lot of people sink with it and it's kind of sad, it's terrible.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a question I reflect on a lot and then I asked my clients and I asked my friends is when you think about running or whatever sport is right, insert sport here.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: When you think about that sport and when you engage in it, are you doing it because you feel good about yourself or are you doing it to not feel bad about yourself?
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: Right, and are we escaping from something or are we moving towards something?
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: And it can be both, but as long as you're recognizing oh, I'm escaping that bad day, okay, I'm escaping how I feel about myself and that if I don't run, I'm not a worthy person.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: That's a little different.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: There's a lot to uncover there.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: Where does that come from?
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: What else is behind that?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: So it's a lot of open-ended questions and reflections of how we engage a sport and what we are using it as.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: It is a coping mechanism for all of us, that is without a doubt.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: But how we engage with it as coping and recognizing that it is coping, I think is important.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: Identity too.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: I think that's like that.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: I had some.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: I actually full circle.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: I went to go speak to a sports psych this couple years ago because you do, you wrap so much of your identity into it and, yeah, it can be very detrimental to the way you view yourself.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: You like totally soak your entire identity into like one thing and it could be something small that gets you away from it.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: That you know, opens up your mind and realizes like this is not my identity.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not just a runner on many other things, but you know, to try to get someone to open their mind to that is very it's very complex, it's very different, it's a wild, it's a more complicated thing than people think it.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Complex, it's very different, it's a wild, it's a more complicated thing than people think it's interesting.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you are preaching the choir.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: Right now I have a variety of research projects if I ever get a PhD that I would consider on this topic, because identity in itself and what it means to us as humans fascinates me and how integral it is to the human experience that we need these qualifiers and these labels for ourselves.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: That's fascinating in itself, but then you add on this one dimensionality that a lot of us find ourselves in with sport that I still, to this day, find myself thinking about right, did I just transfer that energy from soccer to running?
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: I hope not.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: I hope I've grown wiser and stronger and recognize that I care about running, but I am not just a runner, but I care about it still, and that's okay.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: But then it is important we want these labels for ourselves.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: It helps us make sense of who we are and why is that so?
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a whole separate episode.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: I agree we could do a whole.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Nother episode on this.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Well, hey, the invitation's there If you ever want to come back on.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we'll talk about more accolades as we go, but if you ever want to talk about sports psych, I would love to open the conversation too, just because, like I don't know, I think so many people can benefit from stuff like that.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: You know and I'll preface this to the audience Like, if anyone is dealing with something like that, go talk to someone.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: You know it's.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: The best thing you could do is is, you know, talk about it and try to work on those things.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: Cause it's, you know, it's just it's a difficult struggle.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: Um, any questions.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: I'm curious to see who inspires you.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Ooh, okay, um my parents.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: I mentioned how impactful they've been for me in my life.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: Um, they were both really strong athletes.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: They were both runners in college.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: I think to some degree it's why I avoided it for so long, cause I was so determined to make my own path as a, as a young adult, as an adolescent, um, but they have been um so integral in who I've become and I'm really grateful to have good parents, um other people who inspire me.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: Um, other people who inspire me oh, I was not ready for this question.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Um, let's see here, um, someone who I've been looking up to recently on the road running scene is mckenna miler.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, she was actually at mccurdy's um, and she has a couple really interesting accolades to her name.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: She's, I think, got got the fastest known mile with a baby stroller or no, fastest known mile pregnant, I think.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: Anyways, she just has a really interesting and unique social media presence and, like her tagline is like have kids and have dreams too, or you can have kids and you can have dreams.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: So these women in spaces who are saying like you can be more than one thing, right, kind of getting back to identity and I've really loved following her journey.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Don't know her personally, but she had a tremendous trials as well.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: So people like that, who are kind of off the grid a little bit, not the famous names, but who are just really authentic and really raw and showing up in the space and trying to be honest which not to diverge too far, but social media these days is just such a carousel sometimes of performance, and so I'm always searching out folks who are trying to be authentic and engage and, you know, show up openly in the space.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: So that's definitely someone I look up to.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: In the sports space and then in the mental health field, I've been really inspired by people like Kate Fagan, people like Brene Brown, who is one of the best known licensed clinical social workers, doing a lot of really good work and understanding how do we show up at a micro scale when we feel hopeless, and whether it's a political climate, whether it's the world's issues, right, there's so much else going outside of going on, outside of running, and so I try to temper that and understand how I can support and how I'm showing up in my work as a therapist, as a person, in these micro moments Sometimes it feels like all we, all we can do, is show kindness, show that we're listening to others, showing up raw, honestly, all these good strategies.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: So those are people I think right now, if I'm just popping through my head, who I'm thinking of?
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think it's an amazing list.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: Dude, I could do an entire podcast on on social media and the whole thing there.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: Like I, it's crazy.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, like I think that's one thing that like drives me crazy is the is like authenticity, like it's so crazy now how little, how less you see like authenticity in social media.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: It's like everybody's trying to do something or be something.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: They're not.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: It's like man it's really upsetting.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know it's actually driven me a lot off of Instagram just because it's upsetting to see stuff like that.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a whole nother yeah, another topic.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: Wild ride with that one.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, limiting time is what I've learned moderation yeah, yeah, no, definitely, definitely.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: Because if you get, yeah, if you get too deep into it, it's um, yeah, so all right.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: So pre-race you're getting ready for a race, you're walking out.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: What's your pump up song?
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: What are you listening to?
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, I got some good ones.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: My go-to is a song by this electronic band guy named Drolo D-R-O-E-L-O-E and it's called Snow Shovels.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: The cadence of it is what's important to me, which is a whole.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: This could also be a separate podcast.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: The cadence of specific songs is more important to me than the actual song itself.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: For me to sync up my pace and my um, my running structure, actually, so when I'm doing track workouts, the cadence of the song is actually more important than how loud it is or what type of genre it is.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: So that's probably my go-to.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: There's a song called Run, little Girl Run, which is kind of a ragey song by this.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: I think her name's oh, I didn't want to mispronounce it Chinchilla.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: All right, I think that's her name.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: I will say someone's going to totally come at me for not pronouncing that, right, or I'm completely mispronouncing it.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: But generally speaking, I have like a whole playlist of songs that I just turn on before pre-race.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Interestingly like I've had this playlist going since I was trying to run a sub three marathon like seven years ago and how far I've come from then, but it's got everything on it.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: I really kind of a a lover of all music unless it's screamer, screamo.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: So hip-hop, electronic pop, um, once again, like the melody and the cadence of a song for me is almost more important than the words before race and trying to kind of just get myself into this pace, even mentally around, okay, like get ready to just absolutely send it to destroy yourself, but also like keep the pulse on where you're at.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: Um, so that's kind of where I'm at with music.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: I could list so many songs.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: I'm a big music fan.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: Now it's interesting too, like cause I got to ask this from a marathon perspective.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: I know, in trail racing, like especially like short distance trail racing you're not really listening to music, music.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: But like from a marathon, that's so far in my opinion.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: Like, are you, are you listening to music the whole time?
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Are you listening to music the last six miles?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Like, do you listen to music at all on it or no?
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: so before I started competing at a higher level, I would always listen to music um once.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: So for my curties and for the trials, you're not allowed to um it's called it's technically performance enhancing medium.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: Um, so you could get qualified.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: So I had to learn real quick how not to run with music.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: Um, and it's actually easier than I I shouldn't say easier, it was better than I thought it would be Um, I think that just the intensity of how fast you're going at that level changes the need for music, because you're focusing on so many other things, um, and actually I think it allowed me to focus better on my breath, which is really important when you start to feel tired.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: Um, but if I could, honestly, if they allow me, I would listen to music 100.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: Um, it just makes time go by faster.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: I can see how it could be considered performance enhancing, because I do feel maybe it's not actually happening, but I feel like my cadence is so much more balanced and leveled when I have a song that matches it or that's pushing me just a little bit.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, lately, as I've tried to compete at higher levels, music becomes less and less available, like I, just I'm not allowed to listen to it.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: It is interesting though.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny Cause like, yeah, you don't see too many people in the trail space ever listening to it, unless it's like you see people like at the end of a hundred miles or something like that, like you know, but like anything short now.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, I was just always so curious Cause, like I don't know, you don't actually see people ever competing at a high level in the marathon on it, but it's just so far that it was like a yeah, never know, never know.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: Uh, interesting, all right.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: So last question, kind of goofy um, I ask everyone like a mix of either bigfoot, aliens or ai, just because I'm so curious to see how people think at this level uh, what's your take on the aliens?
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: they exist, or if I want to be one no, no, like, do they exist, like what do you think?
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Uh, do you think they're out there?
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's pretty human centered to think that we're the only ones here, and I try to be humbled by that, that the universe is so much larger than any of us can imagine and I sometimes get lost in that thought pattern.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: A lot, that's another.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: We have so many different podcasts we could do.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: A lot, that's another.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: We have so many different podcasts we could do.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Just the randomness of existence is something I think about a lot, and that I'm here in this moment, living this life.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: And if you know, one thing had been different, I could not be here.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: Right, my parents said had a cup of coffee or decided to get in a fight that day, or whatever it was, I wouldn't be here.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: So the mere fact that I'm here today is a pretty lucky random thing.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: And for me to think that there's nothing else random or bizarre out there.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: I think it a podcast.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: The other day and we were talking about the multiverse and I was like man, like we could be having the same conversation like in a separate universe or like multiple times or you could be, I'll have that conversation.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: Yep, we could have.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: This conversation could have gone seven different ways.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: It didn't happen because we said something else.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, ways.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: It didn't happen because we said something else, right?
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true, that's crazy.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, flannery, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: This was an amazing conversation.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it and, yeah, I look forward to the numerous other podcasts that we'll be doing in the future, for sure.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, appreciate it.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and, like I said, best of luck in your 2025 season.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: I will probably see you at Soonipi, so good luck.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, great Cool, Excited to see you there and meet you in real life.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: What'd you guys think?
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, what a great episode.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: I want to thank Flannery so much for coming on the podcast and telling her story and letting me help tell her story.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing conversation and I absolutely wish her the best of luck as she takes on some big goals in 2025.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: Uh, it's going to be really exciting to follow along as she races at soon a P as well as broken arrow, um and potentially multiple other races, so it's going to be super fun.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: Um, before you guys get going, hop on Instagram and you can give Flannery a follow at Flannery Davis love on Instagram.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: You're also gonna be able to find it in the show notes.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: You can just click the link and give her a follow.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: If you guys enjoyed this episode, I would really appreciate it if you could give us a five-star rating and review, depending on where you're listening on this at, so it could be Apple, spotify, youtube.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: Wherever you consume your podcast.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: A rating and review would be amazing so we can continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: Before you get going, if you're in the market for a new pack, a waist belt, any apparel, a handheld, your Ultimate Direction has you guys covered.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: Hop on to ultimatedirectioncom and use code steepstuffpod and that's going to get you 25% off your cart.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: You can't go wrong with Ultimate Direction.
• 1:24:18
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• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: Especially as you start to plan your spring and summer seasons, you guys are going to need those handhelds and those waist belts and your packs.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: So yeah, guys, I got a lot of great podcasts coming out this week.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: Lots of good conversations.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: No-transcript.