Latest / Pod Save America / “Democracy dies with Dershowitz.”

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“Democracy dies with Dershowitz.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Today on the pod, Minnesota Senator and presidential contender Amy Klobuchar.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: who will help us break down all the latest impeachment
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and 2020 news. You'll also be hearing from Crooked Media's
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: own chief content officer, Tanya Somanator, about our brand new
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: edition of Vote Save America for 2020 that launched today. VoteSaveAmerica.com.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Go there now. It's exciting. Put in your email address,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: sign up, and we will take you through this election
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: every step of the way. We're very, very excited about
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: it here at Crooked Media. A few quick notes before
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: we get into it. Um, we are all heading to
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Iowa for the final home stretch. We're all getting on
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: flights today. Um, all four of us will have a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: bonus pod for you first thing Monday morning, and then
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: another pod on Tuesday morning to talk about the results. Uh,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: also the final two episodes of the wilderness are out.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Please listen. Uh, Dan, you and Tara McGowan and I
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: talk about media strategy in the last episode. And then
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of smart people talk about what the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: democratic message should be. Um, I would also highly encourage
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: all of you to listen to Tommy's final episode of
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: On the Ground in Iowa before the caucuses. You know,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I love doing Positive America every week. And of course,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: I'm one of the worst news addicts around on Twitter.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: But I have like rarely been more inspired about politics
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: than when I was either working on The Wilderness or
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: listening to Tommy's series about Iowa. So, you know, do
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: yourself a favor. Get out of the news cycle for
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: a little bit. Listen to some organizers and activists and
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: people who are actually doing the work on the ground.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It'll make you feel a lot better.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Let me second that by saying that I listened to
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: both of those back-to-back yesterday when I was on a flight,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: and it is an incredibly important perspective to understand what
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: is happening in this election and I think will help
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: listeners separate the signal from the noise, the things that
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: matter and the things that feel like they matter in
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: the moment. Tommy's series is a just a reminder that
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: there are that behind all of the noise and the
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: tweets in this campaign there's a bunch of really amazing
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: mostly young people who are working their tails off for
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the candidates that they believe so passionately in and that's
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: going to end in triumph for some and not triumph
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: for others but it is it makes me very nostalgic
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: for our previous life and very proud of the people
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: who are who we will get to see in iowa
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: uh starting tomorrow.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: And speaking of things that matter, you have some book news.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: We are two and a half weeks out from the
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: release of Untrumming America. And I have gotten the latest
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: pre-order numbers. And we're feeling good, but we have a
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: lot of work to do to win the bet with
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: the publisher. And I would just say that if like
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: 15% of the people who are going to download this
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: podcast bought the book, we would beat Donald Trump Jr.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: 's first week sales numbers.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe people.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: This is a lot more about the size of our
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: listenership than anything else. But maybe people want to let
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump Jr.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Win.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: That's fine. I leave it to you. But I want
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: to make two quasi-serious points at least. One, I'm hitting
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: the road after the book comes out. I'm going to
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: do a 17-stop tour for the book. And it's going
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: to start on February 19th in New York City. And
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: then we're going to travel across the country with appearances
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: by many of the friends from the extended Crooked Media universe.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: We're going to be in Philadelphia and Minnesota with Alyssa.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be in Washington, D.C. on the 20th
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: with our former White House colleague, Jennifer Palmieri. Going to
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: be in Boston with Samantha Power. Harrisburg with DeRay. Star-studded.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Very star-studded. Very... uh, special event the day after super
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Tuesday in LA with the four of us, where you
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: can get all of your takes on where the democratic
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: primary race is, uh, in person with a book, which
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: seems quite exciting.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And so all of that information will be on our website, untrumpingamerica.com.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: There may even be a Twitter thread in your future
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: with some graphics and some other things. So I can
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: figure out how to use Dropbox, but I did want to,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to say one thing. I know I
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: have been a, uh, relatively annoying promoter of this book.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: And I will continue to be for the next two
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: and a half weeks. And I, I do it in
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: just in part because I am naturally awkward and particularly
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: in the, when it comes to the promotion of my
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: own stuff, but Liz, but I do feel very passionately
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: about this book and I've probably never felt as passionately
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: about it as I have this week, as I've watched
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: what the Republicans are doing in the impeachment trial, sort
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: of what the fears that led me to write this
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: book are sort of manifest right now. And we'll talk
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: about them in a minute, And so that's why I
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: keep pushing it. And I always encourage people to, if
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: they are generous enough and kind enough to purchase a book,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: of which a portion of the proceeds go to Fair
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Fight Action, to share it on social media. And that
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: does make me feel much better. I have to tell
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: you how much nicer it is to open up Twitter
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and see people saying they bought my book than yelling
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: about something terrible. But there's actually a reason for it,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: which is it helps other people see it. And I
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: want people to read the book. And if they're going
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: to do it, I would love for them to pre-order
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: it because That way, we're at least doing it in
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: a way that can make a contribution to Stacey Abrams'
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: very important effort, which has also felt never more important
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: than it does now, based on the things we're about
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: to talk about. End of pitch.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: No, it's a great pitch. And I will say that
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of your book as well over the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: last 24, 48 hours looking at this impeachment stuff. So
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: it's a great place to just jump in. I was
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: running around New York yesterday, so I was doing my
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: best to follow this thing on Twitter. And then I
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: got back to my hotel and I started reading some
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: of the answers that Donald Trump's defense team gave to
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: the senators during their first day of their 16-hour question session.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Here's Alan Dershowitz. Quote, if a president does something which
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: he believes will help him get elected in the public interest,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: results in impeachment. Later, White House Deputy Counsel Patrick Philbin
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: argued that it would be legal to for President Trump
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: to accept opposition research on an opponent from a foreign government.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: And honestly, Dan, like after seeing those comments, I was
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: like having a hard time sleeping because I was also
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: thinking how it's very likely that every single Republican senator
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: is about to acquit the president based on the argument
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: that he essentially has the power to do anything he
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: wants as long as he, according to Alan Dershowitz, believes
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: it's in the national interest. He can get foreign governments
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: to help him rig an election to investigate the lives
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: of American citizens. He can pardon murderers and bank robbers
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: and terrorists. He can give fucking Alaska to Putin, which
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: is something that Dershowitz had talked about. And look, I
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: guess it's not necessarily that I'm surprised here, right? It's like,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: why are you surprised? We always knew Trump was like this.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I get that. But it still feels pretty damn scary
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: to sort of see it in action and watch all
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: of these Republican senators not even really pause and think,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: do we really want to do this? Do we really
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: want to put our stamp of approval on this? Which
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: goes so far beyond party ideology, substantive agreements, all of
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: that bullshit. A truly dangerous moment for democracy. And they
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: are just, they can't even be bothered to have more
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: witnesses and documents on this.
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: What do you think? Am I being too overdramatic here?
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: No, I do not think you're being too overdramatic. I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: think you're being appropriately dramatic. And it is easy to
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: comfort ourselves by thinking that this is just a passing
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: moment in time, that all of these senators are acting
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: this way because of the perverse incentives of being a
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: politician in Donald Trump's Republican Party. I think that is
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: a dangerously naive view. Donald Trump is catalyzed because of
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: his unique terribleness. but he has catalyzed an anti-democratic streak
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: within the Republican Party that has been going on for decades.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: And it was one that was, I think, brought to
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: the forefront and accelerated by the election of Barack Obama
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: in 2008. Not to say the Republicans were great before that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Far from it. There's a long history of terribleness within
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: the Republican Party, particularly on racial issues, post-civil rights. But
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: I think the overwhelming nature of Barack Obama's victory and
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: then his overwhelming re-election... in the face of a pretty
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: tough economy against the Republican that all the Republicans thought
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: was the most electable, was the wake-up call that political
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: power in this country was shifting. It was shifting away
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: from primarily a white male Christian party to a more
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: diverse majority in this country, and that has required them
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: to take a series of steps that dilutes the power
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: of the majority. And we are seeing that manifest here
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: in this impeachment trial.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: And I think the other thing that worries me is,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: you know, we talk about impeachment all the time. We
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: pay attention to it all the time. I think when
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: this first started and, you know, reporters would say, well,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: most of the public doesn't care about this. It would
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: sort of make me mad because I'm like, well, this
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: is really important. So fuck that. And then, you know,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I went out and did all those focus groups for
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: the wilderness. And sure enough, people don't know much about
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: what's going on when it comes to impeachment. And it's
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: not something that they can see tangibly affect their lot.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Like when the Republicans try to take people's health insurance
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: away or when they give a tax cuts to rich
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: people or any number of things that they do that
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: actually that really affect people in the immediate sense, tangibly.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: And I think because of that, Republicans and Donald Trump,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: they realize that and they have thus been able to
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: get away with more.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Like, yes, there are polls that show, you know, a
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: majority of the country wants to impeach and remove him
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: from office. But they pretty much track with Trump's overall
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: approval rating anyway at this point.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: And and yes, 75 percent of the of the country
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: believes that there should be witnesses and documents. Of course,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: it is still unknown what kind of punishment the public
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: will exert on Republicans who vote against witnesses and documents.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: And I think that Donald Trump and the Republican Party
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: have like almost figured out a hack in that, you know,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: if you're just trying to trample norms, institutions, get away
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: with all kinds of bullshit, be corrupt, you can basically
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: hide it from people, or you basically make sure that
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: people don't really care that much, because they see it
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: all as just like one big mess in Washington. And
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: they don't realize that, like, as we're speaking right now,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: there's a bunch of the president's defense lawyers arguing that
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: this president of the United States and future presidents of
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the United States can basically do whatever the fuck they
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: want And there's just no more congressional oversight whatsoever. You
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: can obstruct Congress. You can target American citizens for investigations.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: You can get foreign help. And it's totally fine. Totally fine.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I think it's even more than they can just sort
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: of pull the wool over people's eyes or distract them.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, in one way, they are surfing the inherent
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: cynicism of the American people. This view that, you know,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump may be uniquely conservative. bad in this way,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: but all politicians are kind of bad. So it's more
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of a venal sin than a mortal sin because it's
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: not that different than a generic other politician would do.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's ultimately how Donald Trump got elected was
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: he was able to turn it into a competition of
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: two corrupt people, which is, I think, a deeply unfair
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: characterization of Hillary Clinton. But he was able to convince
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: enough people that because of cynicism. And cynicism around the
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Clintons specifically born out of a three-decade caricature developed by
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: the right-wing media and others. But I think there is
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: something broader here, which is we are people who pushed
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: publicly for the Democrats to take this path to embark
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: on impeachment. We did that before Ukraine. We thought it
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: was the right thing to do. We thought it was
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: also the politically wise thing to do. I still believe
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: that to be the case. I also believe that if
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: it wasn't the politically wise thing to do, it was
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: the only option before Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff and
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Jerry Nadler and everyone else, particularly once the Ukraine situation
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: came to light. There was no other option.
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: No.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Because to do nothing would be to basically say.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Accept this without a fight, right?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. And we're going to see a thousand infuriating takes
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: about how this was a mistake for Democrats because now
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: that Trump has been impeached and, quote-unquote, gotten away with it,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: now he will do it. He feels like he can
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: do anything. But that is like, the people who offer
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: those takes have not thought for a period longer than
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: it took them to tweet that sentence, because to do
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: that and not even open an impeachment inquiry and hold
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: them accountable with the one measure of accountability provided by
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: the Constitution would be an even bigger green light. It
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: would be a flashing green light that says, go commit crimes.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And so I think they did the right thing. But
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the other element of this is, The idea behind it
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: was no one believed the Republicans were going to remove him.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: We knew who they are. We knew where it was.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: We knew it was 10 months before an election. It
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: is not a thing that could happen with this Republican
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Party and this set of polarized politics. But there was
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: this belief that the Democrats put on a strong case,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: if they brought forward strong witnesses and compelling evidence, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: convinced the majority of Americans that this was a serious
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: endeavor worthy of at least a serious trial from the Republicans,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: then the Republicans would at least feel public pressure to
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: put on a trial. They could make the decision they
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: wanted to make at the end, but you would have
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: witnesses and impeachment and it wouldn't be a sham. And
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: the thing that I think is scary here is the
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Democrats did exactly what they were supposed to do. They
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: made no mistakes. They convinced three quarters of the country
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that there should be witnesses. They convinced the majority of
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: the country that Donald Trump should be impeached. They convinced
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: two thirds of the country that he broke the law.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And the fact that the Republicans feel like they can
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: stick their finger in the eye of three-quarters of the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Americans and not suffer political consequences is the thing that
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I think is the scariest thing about the current state
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: of our political system. Because they are not politically stupid.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: McConnell is not dumb. They have looked at the situation
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: and realized that all the structural advantages in American politics
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: that are both inherent and then those exploited by the
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Republicans give them the opportunity to to ignore the will
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: of three quarters of the country. And that's when politics
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: becomes a huge, dangerous situation in America.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could see a scenario where most Republican
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: politicians serving in Congress go around saying, it's outrageous what
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump did. It is dangerous what he did. We
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: have an election in nine months. I think it should
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: be up to the voters to decide. You know, I, I,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: do not agree with anything. I think it's bad. We
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: cannot have foreign powers investigate people. It was the wrong
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: thing to do. Went over and over and said all
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: these bad things about him and then said, but we're
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: just going to quit him. You know, I would still
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: be furious. We'd still be yelling about it. It would
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: be the wrong decision. But it would at least reveal
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that they felt some sort of pressure, some sort of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: obligation to at least respond to where the public is.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: And their posture in this impeachment hearing has shown that
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: they give zero fucks, zero fucks about what the American
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: people think. They just don't care. Well, I mean, they
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: care about what their base thinks. They care about what
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the 35 to 40 percent of Trump fans think. And,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: you know, some of them need that base to get
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: reelected in some of these swing states who are up
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: in 2020. But they certainly don't give a shit about
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: what the majority of Americans think at all. And they're
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: not even like they're not even trying. You know, Mitt
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Romney submitted some good questions yesterday, some tough questions of
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: President Trump's defense team. I guess Susan Collins and Murkowski
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: submitted a few good questions, too. The rest of them
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: are fucking jokes. Jokes. They didn't take it seriously. So
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: let's just talk about the endgame on witnesses. You know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: as of this recording Thursday morning, the latest reporting from
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: The Hill is that Republicans are suddenly feeling confident that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: they have the votes to block John Bolton and other
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: witnesses from testifying. This follows a long meeting that Mitch
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: McConnell had with Murkowski, who people thought might be one
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: of the four votes Democrats need to get witnesses. Senators
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Romney and Collins have said they want to hear from
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: John Bolton. And the other possible vote in favor of
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: witnesses is retiring Senator Lamar Alexander, who really no one
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: has heard from at all. So we don't know how
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Murkowski and Alexander will vote. But we do know that
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: three of the most vulnerable Senate Republicans who are up
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: in 2020 are will vote against hearing from any witnesses
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: at all. Cory Gardner of Colorado, Martha McSally of Arizona,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: and Tom Tillis of North Carolina. Somewhere around, as we said,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: 75% of all Americans, and a plurality of Republicans, want witnesses.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: So why do you think these swing state senators are
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: opposing public opinion, and is it politically wise?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: I know I wrote the is it politically wise question
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: on the outline, so I will take responsibility for this,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: but The only people who have the answer to that
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: question are the voters of Colorado, Arizona, North Carolina. They
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: are the ones who write the end of that story
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: in November. By organizing, canvassing, voting, they will decide whether
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: it's politically wise. And I think it's incredibly important, not
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: just because we take the Senate, but you have to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: send a message that if politicians want to stay in office,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: they actually have to care more about the voters who
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: put them there than the super PACs who fund them.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: the propagandists who hold their fate on cable television, the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: president's Twitter account. And that's an important message. I think
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the reason that they are opposing witnesses, even though the
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: overwhelming majority of the voters clearly support it, because if
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: it's 75% nationally, it's at least that in Colorado, right?
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Which is a pretty blue state and similar in Arizona
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: and probably pretty similar in North Carolina. And so they
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: have looked at it and decided that they are more
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: likely to succeed if they appeal to the pro-Trump super-backs
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: who spend money, the Trump campaign that is organizing there,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, because if they
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: buck Trump, those people turn on them. And so it
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: shows that they've decided that the balance of power is
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: not in the voters, but it's in the outside structures
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: in the Republican Party, and that a set of other
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: measures will help prevent them from suffering accountability for this.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: And that's where it gets dangerous.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I also think, you know, their calculation must be our
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: democratic opponents in the Senate races. They're going to run
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: against us on healthcare. They're going to run us against
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: us on tax cuts on a whole bunch of other issues.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: They're not going to be talking about impeachment and our
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: votes on impeachment from now until November. At least I'm
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: guessing that's what they think. Or if they think that if,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: if they are making those arguments about impeachment, they think
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: that they won't, really resonate with a lot of voters.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: And I do wonder, as we come out of this trial,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: to me, it seems, after all the danger we just
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: talked about, it seems absurd to just never bring up
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the consequences of what's going to happen, Trump being acquitted
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: for this, between now and November. But I do wonder...
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: how to talk about it in a way that does
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: actually resonate with most people in this country. Um, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure, I think that would be a good
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: project for the democratic party, because I do think the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: easy way out that you could see Democrats taking is like, okay,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: impeachment is behind us. We're moving on to healthcare. We're
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: moving on to issues that really, um, that affect people's lives.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And let's put this whole thing behind us for good. And,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I do think that would be a mistake. I don't
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: think we should make the whole campaign about impeachment between
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: now and November at all. I'm not saying that. But
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I am just wondering, is there some kind of argument
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: you can weave into the larger Democratic argument as we
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: head towards November that includes what we have seen over
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the last couple months? I think there are a.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Couple different ways to do it. And one way is that,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the sort of the competing theories
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: of what the democratic message should be, which is articulated in, um,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: in the last episode of the wilderness that you referenced earlier,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I call it and have called it for a while
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: of the chaos and corruption message. Our friend David Axelrod
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: refers to it as essentially the exhaustion, the national exhaustion message.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And like, this is a data point, which is because
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Trump is so uniquely obsessed with himself and unable to
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: control himself. We are, we are unable to deal with
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: the things that are affecting people's lives. We are, in
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: this mess because of Donald Trump's outrageous conduct. And so
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: instead of spending the last six months dealing with raising
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: wages or fixing health care and all these other things,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: we're dealing with this. And that is Trump's fault. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: there is a way to fit it into that. And
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the other element of it is I think that there
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: is an important populist economic message that can be derived
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: from the anti-democratic instincts of the Republican Party. And I
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: think this fits with, because I am just going to
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: shill for the wilderness left and right, this fits from
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the race class narrative that is talked about in the
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Midwestern episode of The Wilderness from a project that was
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: being done in Minnesota, where why don't the Republicans want
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: you to have a say? Why are they trying to
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: take your vote? Why are they trying to gerrymander your
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: vote out of existence? Why do they want billionaires to
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: be able to fund our elections? It is because they
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: want to keep power in the hands of powerful interests,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: the corporations that fund the party. And they care so
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: much about helping these powerful interests at your expense that
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the president is willing to break the law and Republicans
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: are willing to stand by this corruption because that is
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: in the interest of the people who have gotten rich,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: the companies like Amazon who are paying zero in federal
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: taxes under Trump. the companies who have gotten huge tax breaks,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: the billionaires who've gotten tax breaks, those people have an
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: interest in maintaining this system, even though the overwhelming majority
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: of Americans disagree with this approach to our economy.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I do think one other message is one that you've
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: talked about before. You and I have talked about it
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: with each other, I think, in the wilderness. I lose
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: track of... Is it our text chain? Is it a podcast?
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Who knows? But that Trump is focused on himself. He's
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: not focused on you. And it sort of fits with
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: what you've been saying, which is like, while your premiums
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: are going up, what's Donald Trump doing? He's trying to
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: cheat to win the election. He's he's working with Ukraine
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: to take down Joe Biden. That's what he's been busy
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: doing for the last year. While, you know, all kinds
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: of problems in this country pile up because all he
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: gives a shit about is himself. And look, when you
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: try to figure out, OK, what is it that people
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: believe about Donald Trump? what is it that the most
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Americans believe about Donald Trump, right? Not just us, but
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: like some Trump voters, some Republicans, some independents. And I
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: do think whether you like him or not, most people
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: get that this is a guy who's a little narcissistic
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and sort of in it for himself. And, you know,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: some of them say like, well, but, you know, the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: economy is looking okay. You know, you'll hear that from
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: some Obama Trump voters and other people, but they will admit,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is only in this, or not only maybe,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: but is certainly in this for himself and is very self-absorbed.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: And I think that what he did to lead to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: his impeachment certainly makes that point.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: This is going to sound strange, but last night I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: was watching Below Deck, and you know who was on
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the yacht this week for her bachelorette party?
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Who?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: One-time PSA co-host Jemele Hill.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was wild.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: That's so funny.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: There's some sadness in my life that the first person
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to be on Below Deck who has hosted a PSA
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: live show was not me, but that's fine. But I
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: had totally forgotten that all around Jemele Hill's departure from
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: ESPN was the fact that Donald Trump woke up one
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: morning and started tweeting about her.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: And then I saw some of the tweets about Donald
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Trump fighting with Don Lemon and Rick Wilson about something
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: that was said on Don Lemon's show. And it's like,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: It is true. What if you had a president who
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: woke up every morning and instead of fighting with Jamel
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Hill and Don Lemon and Deborah Messing, they fought for you?
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: It's sort of the opportunity cost of Trump's narcissism, I guess,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: would be what that argument would be. And I do
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: think impeachment fits into that.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And I know some of you listening to this, that's
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: not the kind of argument... We're already persuaded. We think
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the guy's a fucking monster, right? So it's not like
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: that's the argument that's going to get us all going,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: most of you listening to this podcast probably. But I
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: guarantee you, that for people who are on the fence,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: for people who are not paying close attention to the
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: news all the time, which is most voters, I do
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: think that argument carries a lot of resonance because they
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: do know when they turn their TV on once in
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: a while that what they see is this guy just
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: fucking fighting with someone else and not doing shit. All right,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: let's talk about the final days of the Iowa caucus,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: rapidly approaching. In addition to the slew of Iowa polling
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that shows Bernie Sanders in the lead, we did our
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: own poll with Change Research that Tommy and I talk
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: about on his final episode of On the Ground in Iowa,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: and it found the same result as other polls. So
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: after we surveyed 704 likely caucus goers between January 22nd
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and 26th, we found Bernie Sanders in the lead at 27%,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg tied at 19%, Elizabeth Warren
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: at 15%, and Amy Klobuchar at 10%. Um, and, uh,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: also the final Des Moines register poll from Ann Seltzer
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: is coming this weekend, Saturday night. We'll be in Des Moines.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I hear there's like a, a CNN live show, uh,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: where they announced the results, which is just right up
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: our alley.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Hey, you know what? It is, it is an event.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, kudos to Ann Seltzer for turning her polling
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: into an actual event. Like I saw a, someone was
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: going through what a crazy news week we have coming
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: up and they were like working backwards from Tuesday. So
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Tuesday is the state of the UDN. Monday is the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Iowa caucus Sunday. It's a super bowl. And Saturday is
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the more register poll. And which is true. It is
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: a very consequential event. And I am fascinated to see
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: what it says.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Um, do you have any, uh, takeaways from our poll
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: from our change poll?
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I think it, it, there is a very clear effect
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: from our poll and all the other polls that Bernie
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Sanders has very real momentum heading into caucus night. That is,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: that is clear. Um, there is going to be an
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: intense battle for second place. And I think second is
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: going to be of great value heading out of here.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Because I was looking at the 538 model of the election,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and they have an interesting thing, which is they, as
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I understand Nate Silver correctly, the more expected the result,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: the less of a bounce the candidate will get from
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: winning Iowa. And so Bernie Sanders will– I mean, don't
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: get me wrong. Winning Iowa is going to be a
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: huge deal for him. But because it is going to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: become the expected result, there is a lot of room
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: for the person who breaks out of that four-person race
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: for second. If there is a clear second, that person
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: is going to have a chance to make a real
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: claim to be the alternative to Sanders in New Hampshire
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and then going on from there. So that is what
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see. And the fact that that
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: has stayed close in basically every poll over the last
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: few months is, I think, really notable and interesting.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I was interested by how this breaks down by age.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: in our poll and some of the other polls, because,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: you know, you've seen in the national media narrative, you know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Bernie's doing quite well with young people and Biden's doing
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: quite well with older people. In our poll, Bernie leads
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: among all age groups, but those 65 plus. So he
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: even leads narrowly among people from 50 to 64, which
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I thought is, that's a lot of strength across a
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: lot of different age groups. And I'm interested to see
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: what Ann Seltzer has to say about this on Saturday,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: because she is as we've said many times, the best
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: in the business at actually estimating what the turnout's going
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: to look like in Iowa, which is very hard to do.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Our poll estimates that 18% of caucus goers will be
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: under 35 and 38% under 50. But it also says
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: if these groups turn out at higher numbers, which is
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: possible since they are just about as enthusiastic as older
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: voters in caucusing, which doesn't usually happen, Sanders could win
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: by even more than the lead that he has right now,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: which I thought is something worth watching.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of 2008 vibes. from this, and I'm
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: not comparing anyone to Obama.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: No, just how it felt in Iowa.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: It was how it felt, and there was this question
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: that was holding a lot of people back about Obama's,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: would these first-time caucus goers turn out? For Obama, that
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: was obviously young people, but it was also a lot
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: of independents and, frankly, Republicans who were drawn to Obama's message.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: And there were polls that actually, the more registered polls
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: showed Obama winning and accurately predicted results, but there were
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: other polls that did not account for that effect because
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: they were skeptical that these people who had not caucused
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: before would caucus for Obama, and then obviously they did
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: at an even higher number than people thought. Nate Cohn
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: has a real, we're just talking about all the Nates,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: but Nate Cohn had a, he talked about his poll
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: and how the biggest difference between his poll and other
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: polls was there was a huge number of Bernie Sanders
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: supporters who said they're going to support Sanders, did not
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: caucus in 16, and did not vote in 2018.
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And so he includes him in his poll because if
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: someone says that he has a very open policy, whereas
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: if you say you're going to caucus, we're going to
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: count you, and other polls will screen those people out,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: that if you say you didn't vote in 18, you
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: won't be included in the sample. And I would tend to,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: in the first presidential election after Trump, put myself in
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: the camp that these people will turn out, and if
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: that's the case... Bernie Sanders is going to be a
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: very strong position. It is also possible because we live
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: in the upside down world that a completely unexpected result
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: will happen and like Andrew Yang will win or something
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and everyone will be shocked.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: That is also true.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So who knows?
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: You know, in these polls, I also like to go
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: below just the horse race numbers and talk about sort
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: of why people are picking the candidates they pick. I
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: thought this was very interesting. 29% picked their candidate because
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: they thought that the candidate would have the best chance
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: to beat Donald Trump versus... We gave the people the
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: option of picking a candidate who will bring major change
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: to Washington and how things work, which I thought was,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: you know, electability had been such a concern throughout most
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: of the race. And, you know, this breaks down how
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: you'd expect among the different candidates. So the Klobuchar voters
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: and the Biden voters overwhelmingly picked their candidate because they
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: think they can beat Trump. the Sanders voters and the
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Warren voters overwhelmingly pick their candidate because they think they
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: can bring major change to Washington. What's interesting is the
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Pete voters, Pete Buttigieg voters by 58 to 42 are
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: picking Pete because they think he will bring major changes
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: to the way things work in Washington, which could be
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: an interesting thing to watch if Pete does well enough
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: in Iowa to continue.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I'm very interested in seeing Buttigieg's performance because like there
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: has been this sense in the narrative that he is
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: sort of lacking momentum. He has fallen in some national polls.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: He was obviously winning in these polls pretty recently and
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: is now second, third, fourth, whatever, you know, however you
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: want to look at it. But he's in that, he's
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: a distant second to Sanders at best. But you keep
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: seeing these reports of these very large crowds in these
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: very Republican parts of Iowa, which is a way in
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: which he could end up, even if he loses, which
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: I think is, very possible loses the overall vote that
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: he does very well in delegates because he may have
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: strengthened parts of the state that others do not.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I also was fascinated. We pulled people on, we pulled
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: the supporters of the candidates on how often they use Twitter.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: And this will probably not surprise you that the Sanders
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: and Warren voters use Twitter the most. And 80% of
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Amy Klobuchar supporters never use Twitter.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Which I think is just amazing.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And good for her, I guess.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So now that Bernie is in the lead in
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: both Iowa and New Hampshire with quite a bit of momentum,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the attacks have begun, which tends to happen when you
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: become a frontrunner. On Wednesday, one came from a pro-Israel
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: super PAC called the Democratic Majority for Israel, which is
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: running ads in Iowa featuring Iowa voters who say they're
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: concerned that Bernie's positions would hurt the party's chances of
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: beating Trump in November. One voter even says she's worried
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: about his health and talks about the heart attack he
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: had last fall. Mark Millman, the pollster and the head
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: of Democratic majority for Israel, told The New York Times
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that the ads were happened because they were worried about
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Bernie's potential electability and his positions on the Arab-Israeli peace conflict. Dan,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: what do you think of the ad in terms of
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: its fairness and I guess its effectiveness?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: It's hard to evaluate it because I have a opposition
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: to the fact of the ad. Like I think it
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: is a terrible idea for the unified effort to defeat
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Trump for an outside secretly funded Washington group to be
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: running ads, trying to put their thumb on the scale
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: in the favor of one candidate or another. I think
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: that is disastrous. I think it's just a terrible thing
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: to do because it will so distrust and make it
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: harder to unify if Bernie wins and it'll make it
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: harder to unify if Bernie doesn't win. And so, The
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: best way to ensure unity is to just let the
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: voters decide. And the DNC, to their credit, has done
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: a very good job of staying as far out of
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: this as possible. There have been no accusations of meddling
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: or rigging. A lot of the superdelegate policy has been
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: changed to make it more open and more fair. And
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: so let's just let the voters decide and figure it out.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I don't think the execution of the ad is particularly
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: good or is particularly effective. I think I am somewhat
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: shocked that we are sitting here a few days before
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: the Iowa caucus and none of the other candidates have
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: made an electability case against Bernie.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to say like, I agree with
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: you on the outside groups meddling. I think it's, I
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: don't like it. And I also think it is counterproductive. Um,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and one piece of evidence that it is counterproductive is
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Bernie's campaign raised $ 1. 3 million the day after the ad aired. Um,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: and so, you know, I don't, I don't think that
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: that works very well, but If one of the candidates
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: wanted to run an ad like that or say something
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: like that on the stump about Bernie, I think that's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: totally fair. But you're right that it, at least in
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: terms of the electability stuff. But very few of them
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: have done that. Or, you know, they've sort of danced
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: around it. We talked about this last episode, I think, that,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: you know, Pete had a fundraising email that said Bernie
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: can't beat Trump. Klobuchar has been talking about Medicare for
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: all as sort of a liability in the general election.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: But Biden, who I thought would probably lead the charge here,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: has been sort of quiet about it.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and notably Pete's campaign sent that fundraising
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: email out, but then he did not, when asked about it,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: back up that contention in person.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Look, candidates have to be the ones to make the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: arguments against other candidates. Bernie himself has made an electability
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: argument against Biden repeatedly.
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: Right, yeah.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: He has talked about Biden's support of NAFTA and China
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: trade as not just wrong policy-wise, But would make him
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: a less effective candidate because he could draw a less
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: sharp contrast against Trump in the Midwest, which I think
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: there is a lot of truth to that.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: It's fair.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: It is fair.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: And I think someone could make the argument against Bernie.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: But it has to be made by the candidates. And
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: we continue to live in this world where the candidates,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I think, have been struggling to figure out how to
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: do contrast in a multi-candidate field. Look, there are a
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: thousand jokes about three-dimensional and 27-dimensional chess, but the Iowa
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: caucus sort of is. Because if you make the attack,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: you diminish your chance of being the second choice to
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: the supporters of that candidate if they don't make viability.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And so it's very hard. But we have the stars
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: have aligned where one candidate is running away with it,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and no one seemed to have a plan to stop
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: that candidate, which I think is, to Bernie Sanders' campaign,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: it's great credit that they put themselves in this position.
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: No, I'm very surprised that Joe Biden– and look, we
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: might see this. If Biden does not do well in Iowa,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: the week between Iowa and New Hampshire, you could certainly
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: see Biden making a very robust electability case against Bernie
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Sanders at that point. Because if he's not, then I
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: don't I'm not quite sure what his plan is. You know,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: other people have started to make the electability case here.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: There was a piece by New York magazine writer Jonathan
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Chait that got a lot of attention this week with
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: the very clickbaity headline. Running Bernie Sanders against Trump would
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: be an act of insanity. He argues that the 2018
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: midterms provide a lot of proof points for Democrats about
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: where they can be successful this cycle, particularly from the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: races where more moderate candidates flipped red districts and the
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: one where aggressively progressive candidates lost in red districts. He wrote, quote,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: At this point, there is hardly any serious evidence to
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: believe that the best strategy to defeat Trump is to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: mobilize voters with a radical economic agenda. What did you
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: think of Chait's argument, Dan?
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: I mean.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: It is an argument well made with a lot of
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: compelling data points. There is one, I think, just overarching
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: point that I think is more important, which is congressional
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: races are more often sort of generic than presidential races,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: which are very personality driven. And so it is a
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: little bit of an apples... It's like an apples to
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: pears comparison, right? It's a little closer than two completely
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: different things, but they aren't the same. And I thought
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: about just as a thought exercise writing why Democrats should
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: nominate Bernie Sanders. And I'm not saying I am certain
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: that that's the right thing to do. I actually have
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: no idea. I can convince myself at any moment that
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: any one of the candidates is the most electable, and
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: then I can have a different opinion by lunchtime.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I've done that I've done that myself.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: And I think there is a very, there is a
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: compelling case for Sanders and some people are out there
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: making it. Uh, David Korn in mother Jones has a
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: piece today, which raises the, which sort of takes on
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: some of the, the series of anti Bernie Sanders arguments,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: but his also clickbaity headline is, is Bernie Sanders, George McGovern,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: or is he Donald Trump? And he was very clear
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: to point out that Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: two very, very different people.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: But it is– Can you scramble sort of electoral coalitions
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: like Trump did?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Scramble electoral coalitions and sort of upend the traditional ideology arguments.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Or do you suffer a terrible defeat by electing a–
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: what you'd call a high-variance candidate, someone with high risk
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: and high reward– and you lose mightily like the Democrats
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: did in 1972 with McGovern. Um, I don't really know
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: the answer to it. I think that there is, you
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: could write the cheat piece about Biden too.
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: You could, you could take 2016 and say, here's an example.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: We ran a candidate against Trump who was a long
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: time member of the political establishment who had, even if
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: they were unfair, uh, had vague accusations of corruption around
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: them that were then weaponized by Trump and the Republicans
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and the propaganda machine. And that this candidate had limited
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: enthusiasm among young people.
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Like that, like that, like that is the, you could,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, Chait would write it with, you know, longer,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: maybe longer and better, but you can do that case
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: against them too. And I have just come to the,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: conclusion that we also, and I would say this is
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: a really important point, we have no idea what attributes
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: in the candidate are going to matter most 10 months
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: from now. It was seen as a detriment to that
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: Obama was so calm and didn't have the passion of
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: other candidates. It wouldn't get fired up as much as
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: the media wanted him to. But then when we had
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, his thoughtfulness
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: and and his natural calm was seen as a gigantic
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: attribute as someone who would be well-suited temperamentally to take
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: on this crisis. And that was not true in January,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: but it was true in October. And I think that
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: could be true of all of these candidates as well.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: If there is an international incident, Biden's experience on the
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: world stage could be much more valued in October than
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: it is now. If there is a financial crisis, Bernie
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Sanders's opposition to bailouts and his strong populist rhetoric could
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: be much more valuable then than it is now. And
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: so we don't really know, and we're really going to
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: have to trust the voters. So I do think generally
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: pick the most electable candidate. We just don't know that
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: because you're only electable if you get to be president.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: So if you win the election, you were the most
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: electable candidate. And if you lose, you weren't. But you
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: can't really do the hypothetical thought exercise of what if
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: it was Martin O'Malley or Bernie Sanders or Howard Dean
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: instead of John Kerry. And so you don't really know.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: So we're going to trust, even though our system is
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: quite flawed, I'm just going to have to believe the
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: candidate who best navigates that system is the one best
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: able to take on Trump.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I think we spend way too much time on ideology
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: and policy positions as the way to figure out vote choice,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: like how people are going to vote. And You know,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of the political scientists will say, well,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a good amount of political
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: research that says if you are candidates who tend to
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: be further towards the ideological left, have a harder time
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: winning elections than candidates that are closer to the center left.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: And that research is real. But as you and I know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and as we have seen in multiple campaigns, the candidate
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and you said this, the candidate themselves really matters. The
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: campaign they run matters and the opponent matters. I went
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: into the wilderness with two races in my head to
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: try to sort of answer this question for the series,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: which was in Arizona, a state that's trending towards the
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Democrats that is on our list for 2020. In 2018,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Kyrsten Sinema wins there. She's a very, very moderate candidate.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: You know, people are talking right now that she might
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: actually vote for acquittal. I hope not. But as moderate
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: as they come, she's like a new Joe Manchin. And
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: She wins the Senate race in Arizona while the Democratic
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: candidate for governor, who was much more progressive in Arizona,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: lost by double digits to the incumbent governor of Arizona.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Then you go up to Wisconsin and Tammy Baldwin, who
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: is as progressive as they come, one of the most
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: liberal members of the United States Senate, four single payer,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: a lesbian, wins Wisconsin by 11 points. when the more
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: moderate Democratic candidate for governor, Tony Evers, barely squeaks by
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: in beating Scott Walker. Now, again, governor's race is different
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: than Senate races. Their opponents are different, right? So there's
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different factors. But those two races
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: told me it's really hard to map a candidate's ideology
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: neatly on vote choice, on how people vote. And I
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: think when it comes to Bernie, we sort of see
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: this in a lot of polls have asked people over
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: the course of the year, Do you think a woman
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: can be elected president? A gay candidate? A democratic socialist?
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Someone over 70? And democratic socialist fares very poorly. It
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: fares very poorly even in comparison to all those other attributes.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: And yet, even though democratic socialist as a label performs poorly,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, the candidate, performs quite well. And I think
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: if it ends up that Bernie does win the nomination...
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I think the answer to, like, can he win is, like,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: who knows? Because it really depends on what kind of
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: a campaign he runs. And I think if Bernie Sanders
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: runs a campaign that's like the independent senator from Vermont
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: who has taken on both parties at times and taken
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: on corruption in Washington and is sick of the establishment
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: and just wants to talk about, you know, taking on
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: corporate power and helping people with health care and jobs
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, then, you know, I
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: think he has a pretty decent chance. If the election
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: becomes about Bernie Sanders, the democratic socialist, and it's an
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: election about ideology and an extreme left ideology versus an
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: extreme right ideology, then I think he's going to have
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: real problems.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Time will tell. Is that the right thing to say?
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Time will tell. But no, I mean, time will tell.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: And it's hard to predict, obviously. But I do think
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: the one missing piece of all this, and this goes
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: for Joe Biden's campaign and Elizabeth Warren's campaign and all
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: of their campaigns, a lot of this is within the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: control of the campaign and the candidate, right? Like, I mean,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: back to Biden for a second, there's a million reasons, right?
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Like Joe Biden on paper, you can make an argument
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: for is a good candidate for this moment, right? And
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Chait sort of does that. There's a piece in Vox
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: that does that. And right, you can, and you look
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: at the 2018 midterms and you say the same thing, right?
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Like people are sick of the chaos and corruption from Trump.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: They want some normalcy. They know Joe Biden. They trust
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden. And the polls show that he can beat
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Trump in some of these states. And so, you know,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: that that's the kind of candidate we want. And you
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: could imagine a campaign where, you know, in the in
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: the general, Joe Biden runs a very proficient campaign. And
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: he is the type of candidate that that we saw
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: our eight years in the White House. And he's a
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: happy warrior. And that's the campaign. And then you can
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: also see a campaign where he doesn't, you know, put
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: in that kind of performance. And it goes very differently,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: which is the case that you just made. But a
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: lot of this is not baked properly. It is entirely
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: within the control of the campaigns and the candidates. And
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: I think we would all do well to remember that
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: as we go forward here.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: I would make one more point just about Biden's electability.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: I think it is worth noting. Like I said, we
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: don't know. I do think in all the various data
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: points or theories about various candidates' electabilities, and I put
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: the polling 10 months out into a corner of informative
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: but not particularly instructive.
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I think it is notable that the House members whose
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: job depends on strong performance at the top of the
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: ticket in purple and red states, most of them do
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: believe that Joe Biden is their best option, whether that
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: is Cindy Axne or Chrissy Houlihan or Colin Allred. And
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I think that, could they be wrong?
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: 100%.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: But I just think that is a thing that the
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Biden campaign has touted and should continue to tout because
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: as voters are making that evaluation, I think the opinion
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: of those people is worth more than the opinions of
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: a thousand pundits and podcasters and the like.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And again, I should end by saying, we're talking
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: about the Biden and Bernie electability cases because at this moment,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: it seems likely that one of them could be the nominee.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: But part of the reason that it's so tough to
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: predict this could mean that as the voting starts in
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Iowa and New Hampshire and elsewhere, voters are like, I
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: don't think that either of those guys are the most electable.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: And then Elizabeth Warren is and Pete Buttigieg, and Amy Klobuchar,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: and even maybe Mike Bloomberg will all have a chance
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: to make their cases. And Andrew Yang.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Do not stop the Yang media blackout.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know, I know, I know. And Andrew Yang,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: and Andrew Yang. I am going to black out all
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: the rest of the candidates because I do think that
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: is the universe. Though, who knows? Prove me wrong. Someone
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: else running. But yeah, so I think the fact that
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: there's a reason this race is so unsettled. And it is,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: as we have said many times, there are each of
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: these candidates has strengths that you could see really working
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: out well in the general and they have weaknesses that
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: would not. And and that's why people have had a
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: hard time deciding. So, OK, when we come back, we
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: will talk to Crooked Media's chief content officer, Tanya Somanator,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: about the launch of Vote Save America today. On the
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: pod today, her debut on Pod Save America, finally.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: That can't be true.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: She's been on The Wilderness, but not Pod Save America.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: The chief content officer of Crooked Media. The woman who
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: started it all. Employee number one.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: You gave me a job.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: That's your job. Tanya Sominator is here with us today.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: I often said in those early days that you all
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: would be dead without her.
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: And you were correct.
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: Flattery gets you everywhere this time, I guess.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Tanya, we have you on because Vote Save America has relaunched.
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: It has launched. VSA 2020.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: And we all remember that Vote Save America in 2018
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: was a website that is a one-stop shop for all
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: of your voter registration and volunteering opportunities and ballot information needs.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: So.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Tell us all about the new program.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: Right. So Vote Side of America 2018 was kind of
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: an experiment, right? I think, John, you and I were
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: basically like, what is our registration date? And we started
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: Googling around and being like, what the hell? There's no
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: one place where you can figure out what your registration
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: date is, polling place. All of that stuff didn't exist
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: in one site.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: I'm disappointed neither of you are registered.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: Right, right, right.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: We were wondering, we're like, there has to be one
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: website where you can both register to vote, check your
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: registration and figure out how to volunteer.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: And figure out what the hell is going to be
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: on your ballot in like one place, no matter where
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: you live. And that was not the case.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: Not the case at all. I mean, there's a lot
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: of great websites out there with a lot of information.
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: So we worked with a lot of partners to pull
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: that together. And it was an experiment to see if
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: people would use it. You know, we knew people really
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: cared about what the result was going to be, but
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: how much did they want to do to help? bring
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: about the result they wanted to see. Turns out a lot. Um,
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: granted we like totally, you know, bootstrap that site together.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: I think like I was coding at one point, which
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: is not a good sign for anybody. Um, and we
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: were just like, right.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, some standard.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: Um, but, uh, and so we were like desperately trying
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: to like build this site while, while the election was happening. Um,
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: But we saw that a lot of people really did
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: care and really wanted to do more than just vote.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: They wanted to figure out what else they could do
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: and wanted to make sure they could help other people
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: vote and other people understand the stakes of that election,
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: which were high. Well, the stakes of this election are
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: much higher. And it's not only the White House. It's
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: the Senate. It's keeping the House. It's state legislatures. I mean, Dan,
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: you talk about Texas all the time. That could actually...
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: And setting the stage for what the next decade and
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: beyond looks like for this country. So we, this year,
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: knowing that the stakes were so high, we wanted to
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: put together a strategy that actually helped people have the
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: impact where we all know it needs to be. So
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: this time, Vote Save America is not just a website.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: It's an initiative.
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: It's a program.
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: It's a strategic program. And it's a community where anybody
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: who is super anxious about what's going to happen, we
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: wanted to give you something to do with that. And
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: that meant like putting together a website that not only
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: would you be able to make sure you weren't kicked
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: off the rolls, that you could register, that you could
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: find your polling place, that you can understand what's on
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: your ballot, all the stuff that was in 2018 will
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: exist now. But you can also figure out where to
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: donate so your money has the biggest impact and at
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: the right time. It's not just about where you're putting
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: your money, but it's like when you're giving that money.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Because if you think about it, as this primary is
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: going on and we're heading to Iowa and people are
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: really focused on the candidates, the candidates are focused on
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: the candidates. They're trying to win a battle between each other. Meanwhile,
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: Trump doesn't need to worry about that at all. He's
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: got a huge war chest.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: He's got nothing on his plate.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: He's got literally like doesn't have to do anything but
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: engage with voters and like spend money on Facebook, on
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: TV ads and just talking to voters all the time.
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: Our candidates aren't doing that yet or they can't really
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: afford to spend that money there yet. So when we're
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: spending money early in this year, like you should be
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: donating to people who are doing that voter engagement, who
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: are on the ground in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, in Arizona
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: and Florida and North Carolina, Michigan, the states that are
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: really this election is going to come down to. And
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: we can help carry that load. And so, you know,
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: when you come to Vote Save America, you can see
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: the strategy behind where we're asking you to donate. We
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: will never ask you to donate to a place where
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: we don't think your dollar is going to have a huge,
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: huge impact on the outcome of the election.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: Everyone's in the loop. Everybody's in the loop.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: We're working with everybody and all the groups you know, Indivisible,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Swing Left, groups that you.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Don't know, Souls to the Polls, people who are on
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: the ground, they're part of.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: This program and we're going to connect you to them
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: throughout the year.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Instead of having to freak.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: The fuck out about what you're supposed to do. What
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: we're promising you is we're going to take you step
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: by step through the year, like phase one, you're going
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: to do this next step. You're going to do this
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: next step. We suggest you do this. And if you
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: keep wanting to do more, we're going to give you
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: options to do more. And anybody who wants to leave
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: it all on the line, Vote Save America 2020 is
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: going to help you do that. Yeah.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, the, Most common question we get, and there's
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: many variations of these questions.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: Who's going to win?
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: There's that, right? No, people know now not to ask
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: us that question. But when we're at live shows, on Twitter,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: on live streams, it is, what can I do to help?
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Or it's, I live in a super blue state, right?
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: And I don't think there's any competitive elections around me,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: which is also wrong. But what can I do to help?
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: I live in a super red state. What can I
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: do to help? What can I do? Go to votesaveamerica.com.
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Put in your email.
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: And we will tell you every step of the way
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: exactly what you can do to help.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: A hundred percent. And so one example we can give
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: for that, because so many people tell us, as you know,
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: I live in California. You know, I'm going to volunteer.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Thank God we had to convince you to move here.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: It was a real tough one. I mean, yeah.
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: And I like, what do I do? I, you know,
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: I know that Michigan matters. I know that Wisconsin matters
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: for God's sakes. Everybody's told me, you guys have said
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: a thousand times, Wisconsin matters. So what am I doing?
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: Do I just have to like, you know, sit here
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: in like an anxious ball and worry about it? Well,
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: one thing that we're going to be rolling out pretty
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: soon in March is like an adopt a state program
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: where you can adopt a battleground state. And while you're
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: like making sure your friends are registered, while you're making sure,
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: you know, you're volunteering around your state, you can do
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: one more thing and adopt a Wisconsin, and we will
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: send you specific asks that are driven by people on
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: the ground like Ben Wickler. And he'll be like, I
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: need this right now. And we will deliver that to you.
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: And we will tell you, this is why you need
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: to do it. And this is why, you know, you
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: need to vote Save Wisconsin. And we'll give you feedback.
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: We'll tell you what happened to your dollar, what happened
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: to the volunteer opportunity that you helped make happen. And,
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: you know, you'll hear messages from people on the ground
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: about exactly what's going on. Because I think that's super
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: important to see that if you're going to commit and
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: you really want to help in battleground states, that you
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: see exactly what's going on there. There's no reason to
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: just not know. And so that's one thing that we'll
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: be rolling out later this spring.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Well, this sounds pretty good.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like a great website.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: So final ask to everyone is just every single person
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: listening to this, and we will take it as a
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: personal offense if you do not, go to votesaveamerica.com and just...
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: You know, sign up. Sign up. We should also say,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: sign up. We're not going to spam you with bullshit.
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: No. So this is super important.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: We're not going to ask you to buy all kinds
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: of shit.
• 58:01
  Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Like a certain book, which I request you guys.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: To write down.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe there's that.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's that.
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: No, this site is very much just about, we are very,
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: it's not a product. We're not hawking anything.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: We're not making money off this. No, no, not at all.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: We just want you to have the information that you
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: want to have and certainly the information that you need
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: to have. And I just want to say like, you know,
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: We're really, you guys talk about it all the time,
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: this election sits on a knife's edge. I think everybody
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: knows that. Everybody who feels anxiety about Trump getting reelected,
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: that shouldn't breed a sense of pessimism or a sense
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: of just, depression that it's not changeable. It's actually really,
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: really so much in our hands. If you're looking for
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: somebody to save you, if you're looking for a candidate
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: to swoop in and be like the candidate to beat
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump, that's not going to happen. What's going to
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: beat Donald Trump is what you do and what you
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: bring to the table. Because anybody who's listening to this,
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: you're so much more persuasive than you think. You're so,
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: you can convince people to believe that they can make
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: a difference this year. And that is the most crucial
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: thing that we can do. And Vote Save America is
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: just there to help you convince people to at least register,
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: at least get the information that they need, at least
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: like maybe come with you to a volunteer event, or
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: at least like find out what's happening in Wisconsin and
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: what they can do. Because if you You know, we're
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: not Pollyannish about what could happen on November 3rd. We're
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: not at all like foggy eyed about our chances to win.
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: We know that this is going to be extremely close,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: but that should breed a sense of determination. Everybody should
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: do what they can. And our job, we just wanted
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: to make that as easy as humanly possible for you
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: to do all the right things when you needed to
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: do it. So that's what Vote Save America is about.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: So, John, you're right.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: Just come there. Check if you're registered first, then Pledgister,
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: trademark TM. Give us your email, and I promise we'll
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: just send you the information you need to feel like
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: you left it all on the field. You did everything
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: you could to win on November 3rd.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Look, and if you don't believe that election can come
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: down to one person, just ask Jim Comey.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: We're really running there. Tanya left it on such a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: high note.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: We need a little levity.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. We don't have levity here.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: A higher loyalty.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Tanya, thank you so much.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: Thank you guys.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us here on Pod Save America.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: Come back. I appreciate it.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: VoteSaveAmerica.com. Go there now. Okay. When we come back, I'll
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: talk to Senator Amy Klobuchar.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: Hey, everyone.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America and Love It or Leave It are
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: going on tour for 2020. Between the news, this primary,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and the general election. That's right. We're going to have
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: a lot to talk about. So come see us live.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: When we're in your town. Get those tickets at crooked.com
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: slash events and come hang out. That's crooked.com slash events.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Erin Ryan, host of Hysteria on Crooked Media.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: Every week on the show, I'm joined by former White
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: House Deputy Chief of Staff, Alyssa Mastromonaco, plus a bunch
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: of funny, opinionated women here in L.A. and New York City.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: We talk about the political news of the week and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: the topics, trends, and cultural stories that affect women's lives.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: From reproductive rights to rom-coms.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: We do it all.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: New episodes of Hysteria drop every Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: On the pod, the senior senator from Minnesota and presidential candidate,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Amy Klobuchar. So you've been sitting in this impeachment trial
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: for the last few weeks. President's defense team just argued
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: that he can do whatever he wants to get reelected
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: as long as he believes that action is also in
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: the national interest. They argued it's legal. to receive dirt
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: on an opponent from a foreign government. And it appears
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: that just about all of your Republican colleagues are ready
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: to not only ratify this defense, but to do so
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: while actively blocking all witnesses and documents. I guess my
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: question is, what is your outrage level? Doesn't this go
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: far beyond substantive ideological differences with your Republican colleagues?
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: I just, I'm still, I mean, we still have another day.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: I am hoping at least a few of them make
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: the case for the truth. You know, regardless of how
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 5: they're going to vote on impeachment, they at least have
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: to acknowledge that you can't have no witnesses in impeachment.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: The question I asked last night was that I had
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: been part of the trial committee for the last impeachment
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: in the U.S. Senate, which was a federal judge out
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: of Louisiana. Among many things, we had about a week-long trial.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: It's the only trial in the history of America in
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: the U.S. Senate where the word lap dance was used
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: 10 times, but that's beside the point. So we had
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 5: 26 witnesses for that trial. So my question was, how
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 5: come for a judicial impeachment of a federal judge from Louisiana,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: would we have 26 witnesses, 17 of whom had not
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 5: testified in the House, And for a presidential impeachment trial,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: we would have none. And I think that just puts
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: it in a nutshell here because they are basically denying justice.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 5: I keep looking over them and thinking, okay, did you
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: just run for this office because you can buy your
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: chair at the end and put it in your office?
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Little fact, you can't.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: Did you just run for this office so you can
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: have a trophy on the wall and you can have
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 5: a title for life? You know, because I just don't understand.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: They are supposed to be doing the job of the
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: American people. They're supposed to be upholding the Constitution. And
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: this is their moment. So let's see what they do.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: But the Dershowitz argument, as you know, is even separate
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: from the witnesses. You know, he's basically saying, oh, you
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: can do anything you want, which some of them have
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: voiced some discontent with.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: They have.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: Because that would basically mean, I guess, Nixon could do
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: whatever he wants. I mean, anyone could do whatever they want.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: And some of your Republican colleagues have voiced discontent with
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: that to you? I haven't seen anyone do anything publicly.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: There's been a few people that I've read in some
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: news articles that have said things about it. I've just
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: been over there trying to get them to do the witnesses,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: you know, what's in front of me. I can't control
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 5: what Dershowitz says, but I can try to convey to
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: them how bad this is going to look. Because, by
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 5: the way, the truth isn't going to come out in
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: five years. The truth is going to come out in
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 5: five weeks. We'll see if they can stop that manuscript
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: or not, but it's going to leak out. And they
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 5: will be the ones with not just the history on
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 5: their shoulders. They're going to have the wrath of the
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: voters on their shoulders because 70 percent of the people
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: in this country want to hear the truth. And while
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: whatever happens with its impeachment hearing moving me into my
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: efforts and my argument here for the voters of Iowa
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: and New Hampshire and Nevada and South Carolina and beyond,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 5: is that, yeah, this is an economic check on this president.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: We know how he hasn't kept promises and the job
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 5: that we would have had if it wasn't for his
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: trade war and the pharmaceutical prices and not helping people
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 5: to get child care or housing. We all know that
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 5: that's going to be a major part of the campaign.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: But it is more than that. It is a decency check.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 5: It is a patriotism check. It is a president that,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: when asked about Russian interference, standing next to a ruthless dictator,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: Vladimir Putin, makes a joke about it. When hundreds of
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: thousands of Americans have lost their lives on the battlefield,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: standing up for a democracy, and four little girls at
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 5: the height of the civil rights movement lost their lives
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: in that church in Birmingham, Alabama, because they were simply
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: trying to be part of the democracy, and other people
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: were trying to push it away from them. If we
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 5: miss that, we're going to screw this up. We have
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: to see that there's people that don't agree with everything
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 5: that's said on the debate stage. I don't agree with
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: everything on the debate stage, but we have to see
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: it in a bigger way to bring in the coalition
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: we need with independents and moderate Republicans.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Well, so it seems to me, you know, at most
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: you might get three or four of your Republican colleagues
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: voting for witnesses and documents, which means that the rest
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: have shown that they are willing to defy, you know,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: 75% of the public to cover up a very serious
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: abuse of power in order to stay in power themselves.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: It seems to me that with this Republican Party, as
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: it exists right now, the only way to pass any
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: legislation of any significance is by defeating as many elected
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Republicans as possible. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: No, you're right.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: That's why we get to my argument, you've got to
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 5: win big. You know, it will be sweet if we
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: eke by a victory at 4 in the morning. Don't
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 5: get me wrong when it comes to the presidency. But
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 5: if that's how we do it, we will most likely
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: not be sending Mitch McConnell packing. We won't win all
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: those Senate seats. And it is in our grasp when
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 5: you look at those numbers in places like Arizona and
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: in Colorado where our candidates are doing quite well, the
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: possibility of winning seats. in states like Maine and in
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: states like Texas or a state like North Carolina, just
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 5: what we are seeing. Look, we won the governor's race
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 5: in Kentucky, John. We won the governor's race in Louisiana.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: And guess who went down there to campaign the night before?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump. So my one question is, where can we
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: send him next? If we stick with those basics and
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: they are not celebrity candidates, I bet a lot of
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: your listeners can't even name the name of that new governor, Wisconsin.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: I hardly could. Governor Evers. But you know what? He
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 5: beat Scott Walker.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: That's right. So in our Iowa poll that we did
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of others, your candidacy is showing real momentum.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: According to our poll, one out of every four respondents
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: who've made up their mind recently are supporting you. The
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: data also shows, and I'm sure your campaign knows this,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: that a big chunk of Iowans are trying to decide
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: between you and Joe Biden. What's your argument to someone
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: who says, I know the vice president. I like what
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: he did during his eight years with Obama. All the
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: polls show that he beats Trump in these swing states.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Why should I support you instead?
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: Well, I would agree with the fact that he has
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: done a lot for our country. I would start with that.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: But the second thing I would say is the area
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: we need to win. is the Midwest. And it isn't
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 5: flyover country for me. I actually live there. And then
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 5: the third thing I would say is it, you know,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: I'm in a new generation. I like to tease Pete
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 5: that 59 is the new 38 in this race and
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 5: that I'm in the next generation. And I think that's
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 5: going to be important to have a fresh face and
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: someone new. And then the final thing is I've been
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: governor in the era of Trump and I get how
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 5: to get things done. I get our angry but fired
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 5: up Democratic base and how important that is to our victory.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: But I also see how people have felt screwed by
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 5: this president because I've been living it. I've been there.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 5: And I think all of those things, plus the fact
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: that I've passed over 100 bills as the lead Democrat.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: And if you want one proof point, the receipt, I'm
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 5: the one that has won, the only one on that
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: stage that's won those congressional districts like Michelle Bachman's every
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: single time, rural ones, northern Minnesota, flipping 42 counties that
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump has won. And I think a lot of
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: that is getting how to bring people in and not
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: shutting them out. But it's also about can you beat Trump?
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: And I've certainly shown I'm tough enough and nimble enough
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: on the debate stage. But I've also shown in the numbers,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 5: the one poll in the place that knows me best,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: my state, where Hillary had almost lost, I beat him
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 5: by 17 points two months ago. More with men, more
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: than eight points, more than the vice president.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: So speaking of beating Trump, you said on Meet the
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Press that Bernie Sanders shouldn't be leading the ticket. Obviously,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: you want to lead the ticket. But do you think
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: that Bernie Sanders can beat Trump?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: Sure. I mean, I think a lot of people can
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: beat Trump, depending on the circumstance. But it's more than
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 5: that to me. I don't think that he would, in
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: the way I do, bring those independents and moderate Republicans
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: with him so that we firmly keep those House seats
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: that we need to keep. And also that we win
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: in those Senate races we just talked about. That's the difference.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: It's winning things. It's bringing people with us. And I think,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 5: of course, there's got to be the skill and the
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: ability to bring Bernie and the liberal wing of our party,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 5: which is so critical with us. We did it in 2018.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 5: I've shown ability to do that. I personally get along
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 5: with all the candidates up on the stage. I'm in
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: leadership with Bernie and Elizabeth. So I think that matters.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 5: And you've got to have someone that can unite the
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: party and unite the country.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: So I just want to give you the opportunity to
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: comment on a story that I've been seeing go around
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: over the last couple of days. The Associated Press reported
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: on Tuesday that they've uncovered new evidence that may exonerate
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: a 17-year-old who you prosecuted as Hennepin County attorney. Mayan
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: Burrell is serving a life sentence after being tried and
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: convicted twice of murdering 11-year-old Taisha Edwards. Obviously, this is
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: a story you've told before. But the AP has found
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: that some witnesses have recanted since, saying that they were
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: coached or coerced. and that Burrell's co-defendants have actually confessed
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: to the murder and say that Burrell wasn't even at
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: the scene. There was never any fingerprint or DNA evidence.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: Your old office, the Hennepin County Attorney's Office, says that
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: they'll evaluate new evidence and are working with the AP,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: but they also said that they are, quote, confident the
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: correct person was convicted. As the person who first, you know,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: was in charge of the office that first prosecuted that case,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: are you confident that the correct person was convicted?
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 5: I was not involved in the second trial, and that's
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: what they're referring to, because I wasn't there at the
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 5: office at the time. I was in the U.S. Senate
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: at that point, and I think some of this evidence,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know the details on it, might have been considered.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: But all I know is this, and I really do
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 5: appreciate the AP thoroughly looked at this case, because if
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 5: there is new evidence in the case, it should be
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 5: immediately reviewed by the court. And that's what must happen.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 5: And just so you know some context, I've advocated for
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 5: reforms to our criminal justice system throughout my career. I've
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: worked with the Innocence Project. We did a DNA review
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: of all of our cases in which there was DNA
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: at their urging. I have actually gone around the country
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 5: for them advocating for videotape interrogations as well as a
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: new way to do eyewitness identification. where you show one
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 5: picture at a time instead of all the pictures at once.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: And obviously in the Senate, I've been a very strong
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 5: supporter of the First Step Back, a co-sponsor, and believe
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 5: we need to go even farther. So that's my bet
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 5: to give you some context.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's very good context. I mean, have you
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: read the AP story, the investigation?
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, I did.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: Reading that story, as I did, and it's quite a
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: story to read, Did you leave it feeling worried that,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: you know, a young man who's potentially innocent is serving
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: a life sentence as someone who was originally part of
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: the first case?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: Well, of course, because you want to be someone that
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 5: always does justice. But I want to make clear what
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: matters are the facts. What matters is the case being
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: brought forward. so that a court can review it and
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 5: seeing all the facts together. And that's what I think
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: has to happen. If there's new evidence, it should be
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 5: immediately reviewed by the court, and that has to come
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 5: forward to the county attorney's office and then to the court.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're going to be shaking a lot of
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: hands these last couple days, talking to a lot of voters.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: What's the 15-second pitch, the closing pitch, as you try
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: to wrap this thing up?
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: I can win. I can lead our country and bring
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: people together and cross the river of our divides to
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: a higher place in our politics. And if you are
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: sick of the noise and the nonsense in our politics
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 5: and the extreme, you have a home with me. And
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: that means bringing together our fired up Democratic base, independents,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 5: moderate Republicans to beat this guy because the heart of
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 5: America is is so much bigger than the heart of
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: the guy in the White House right now.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Senator Amy Klobuchar, thanks for joining us, and good luck
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: out there on the campaign trail.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: All right, everyone. Thanks for listening, and maybe we'll see
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: some of you in Iowa, and we'll have a pod
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: out on Monday morning.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: Bye, everyone.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: senior producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:15:21
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• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Katie Long for production support. And to our digital team,
• 1:15:27
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• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: who film and upload these episodes as a video every week.