Latest / The Touch of a Mustang / What It Really Means to Honor the Horse with Henry Merrill | Episode 43

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What It Really Means to Honor the Horse with Henry Merrill | Episode 43 · The Touch of a Mustang

0:00
You're experiencing resistance somewhere that's that horse
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telling you he has a lack of understanding if he's Ling in
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his head to be bridled, if you know he leans away to be
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haltered anywhere. You're experiencing resistance
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somewhere your horse didn't understand something and someone
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forced past completion. He leaned his head away and they
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just went up, slapped that halter on there.
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He missed the foundational maneuver, which is I need you to
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hold your head straight down and let me touch you all over it.
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It's kind of like, you know, in philosophy, they say you're
0:25
doing philosophy whether you know it or not.
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And so you're training a horse, whether you know it or not.
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There are healers on this planet with the power to soften the
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suffering of mankind if they have remained in the recesses of
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the world, abused, discarded and labeled as trash.
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This is the touch of a Mustang. I am your host, Shalise Clough,
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and I'm here to tell the story of wild horses, Mustangs, and
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the humans who are discovering and sharing their gifts while
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working to protect their well-being and preserve their
0:57
spirit. So this divine power won't be
1:00
lost. Join us on this quest with the
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Wild Mustang. Thank you so much for being here
1:11
today, Henry. And we are going to chat a lot
1:14
about horses and Mustangs. So why don't we start with how
1:20
you have been involved with horses, And that's been a pretty
1:24
long story, even kind of back into your history.
1:27
Yeah, well, thanks for having me.
1:30
As long as I can remember, horses were really a part of my
1:32
life. My dad was always involved in
1:36
horse training or doing an agricultural job where horses
1:40
were involved in some capacity. He trained horses for Harriet
1:44
Peckham, who's in the Quarter Horse Hall of Fame and had some
1:47
pretty big clients as a horse trainer.
1:50
And he ran ranches and feed lots.
1:52
And so I had a really unique and cool childhood in which horses
1:58
were just and everyday part of life.
2:01
And my uncles and everyone I knew kind of had that same
2:05
structure to it. And so I grew up with them just
2:08
being really commonplace and and worked on ranches for my uncles
2:13
in the Northern Arizona, showed horses quite a bit when I was a
2:16
kid and just had a lot of fun doing that.
2:18
And my dad always had a cult starting business.
2:20
And so the family shore was starting cults for Dad.
2:24
Yeah. Were you the first writer?
2:26
Were you the 1? He stuck on there.
2:27
He's like, let's see how you do. Always, always.
2:31
Let's go. Yeah.
2:32
So grew up starting cults with him and had a cult starting
2:35
business out of high school post 911.
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I went over overseas and did the infantry thing for six years or
2:42
so and then went to college, got a degree in philosophy, got out
2:46
and went back to working on ranches and starting Colts.
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And that kind of led me to working for Martin Black.
2:52
And then I went through a collegiate horse starting
2:54
program with his stunt wade for a few years and just went out on
2:57
my own training horses for the public and here I am.
3:01
So it's always been a part of your life.
3:04
And I was reading on your about information on your website that
3:07
even like your grandfather was involved with horses and was,
3:13
didn't he round up some wild horses when things were way
3:17
different than now? Yeah, yeah, I could talk about
3:20
that all day. But my my grandfather was what
3:23
they called the Meston yera, or a wild horse gatherer.
3:25
And so they would spin them in a circle one way and spin them in
3:30
a circle the other way, which I now understand is so they could
3:34
see which horse would switch from left eye to right eye
3:36
pretty easily. Yeah.
3:38
And so they'd spin them in a circle one way, spin them the
3:40
other way, and they'd start heading for Fort Apache.
3:43
As they were heading there, they'd get one out and they'd
3:45
put three rides on them. And that was considered dead
3:47
broke for the Calvary. And yeah, yeah.
3:51
So granddad was was into the horse thing too, and it's just
3:56
always been a part of the kind of familial DNA.
3:58
Yeah, that's really cool. Let's talk a little bit about
4:01
just kind of how horsemanship has changed and transformed You
4:05
were you've been in it a long time since you were a kid.
4:09
What changes have you seen? And then also kind of as you got
4:13
different training, had different experiences, did that
4:16
change the way that you approached horses and you're
4:19
philosophy with them? I mean, I think I was really
4:22
fortunate being around dad, even in the nice dad.
4:26
I was talking to another friend that trans horses for the public
4:29
about this. Dad did what was called natural
4:33
horsemanship, what we call natural horsemanship now we kind
4:36
of loosely know as the Tom Dorrance Ray hunt, you know,
4:41
Martin Black Deal. But all my uncles would say your
4:44
dad has a different way with horses, you know, because those
4:48
Cowboys did, you know, they'd rope them and stump them up to a
4:51
post and get on and woo Hoo, buck a Roo, You know, that was
4:54
the old way. And we're not that far removed
4:57
from that. Yeah.
4:59
To think about, that's pretty wild to me that that was just
5:02
not that long ago. I guess maybe I'm dating myself.
5:05
The 90s doesn't seem like that long ago, but doesn't.
5:08
Seem that long ago to me either. So years.
5:11
Ago, right? Yeah.
5:14
But, you know, so I was really fortunate that dad always had
5:17
this way with horses and they were always just held in such
5:21
esteem in my household. But I got around a lot of other
5:23
guys and there was a lot of different ways.
5:26
And so have seen it change towards a more kind of ethical
5:30
scientific approach. And I think that's awesome.
5:34
We could talk about this now or later.
5:36
I think there's some some ways where it has almost been
5:39
hijacked. And I think that there's ways
5:42
that that you could go too far if there's a virtue in the
5:46
middle and the vicissitudes are on either end.
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I think, you know, I often now see horses that are fairly
5:54
dangerous just because they've never been pressure tested and
5:58
they've never been asked to do anything that grows them and and
6:03
stresses them in a good way. And so as far as seeing it
6:07
change, I think that's that's the big change that I've seen is
6:11
people have it's moved from an agricultural source of energy to
6:15
primarily a hobby horse and there's been some good and bads
6:18
that come with that. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed the
6:21
same thing. And I just recently heard
6:23
someone talk about how as humans we tend to overcorrect.
6:27
You know, it's we see something that's wrong and we think we
6:29
have to go so far the other way, stay as far away from that wrong
6:33
as possible. And I think you're right that
6:35
the the correct place to be is in the middle.
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And I think that's actually also the hardest place to be because
6:40
you're trying to not go too far either way to where it's
6:44
detrimental. And so, yeah, I agree, there can
6:46
be a real danger in going too far the other way.
6:50
You know, I think we see it all over in our world with horses,
6:53
with raising kids, where it's just, you know, we want a cod
6:58
alone. We don't ever want them to hurt.
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We don't ever want them to be uncomfortable even.
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And I mean, that's something I've definitely recognized.
7:07
Like you have to have an element of discomfort or you're just
7:10
going to stagnate. You're not going to go anywhere.
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You'll never be able to progress and gain new skills and, you
7:17
know, succeed in life or horsemanship or any of that.
7:20
What are some of the things that you've kind of seen related to
7:23
that? That's an excellent observation.
7:25
Well, one thing that I've worked on is that I think Martin Black
7:30
was an excellent model for me because his motto was that every
7:35
horse passed this program, and I love that.
7:37
And I think particularly dealing with Mustangs, you have to treat
7:40
them that way. If we look at the show world,
7:42
you take a subset of, let's just say Michael Phelps and Britney
7:48
Griner had a baby. All right.
7:50
And then? We'll see where this goes.
7:53
And then we kidnapped that baby and we put him on a treadmill
7:56
when he was two. And if we blew him up, well, you
8:00
know, that's all right, not everyone's going to make it in
8:02
the NFLNBA, etcetera. And so Martin Black had a
8:06
really, and I'm not faulting the show world.
8:08
I I actually love the show horses.
8:09
I think it's great. But Martin's motto was that
8:11
every horse passed his program. And I think with Mustangs,
8:15
that's kind of the way you have to treat them.
8:17
There's those are a bunch of individuals.
8:19
They've been out on the range, they've bred mares, they've
8:22
fought other stallions, they've been in bachelor herds, they've
8:26
had babies and progeny. And so they've lived rich and
8:30
full lives. And so I always like, I think
8:33
it's just better rather than trying to force them in a
8:36
certain a certain role, a certain category, to kind of
8:38
meet them where they are. And I loved how Martin was able
8:41
to do that. But within that, I think there
8:43
should be industry standards. You know, I think you as a
8:48
psychologist would probably vouch for this.
8:49
I think resentment is a really powerful emotion.
8:54
And I don't want to have to do some really crazy technique to
8:59
halter my horse. Yeah, yeah.
9:02
I don't think that the public wants that.
9:04
I don't think it serves the public or the horse.
9:07
And so I just want if a horse comes to me to be halter
9:09
started, I want someone a first time inexperienced horse owner
9:13
after two weeks at the most, to be able to walk up there and
9:16
halter that horse. That's a good industry standard
9:20
that I think any horse should be able to meet.
9:22
So within that motto of where's the virtue in between the
9:25
vistitudes, I think there is industry standards that
9:28
ultimately will serve the horse and the owner, and I think we
9:32
need to stay. True to those.
9:34
And I think if you don't know how to get a horse there, that's
9:38
OK. You should just be honest with
9:40
yourself and figure out who you need to get around or what
9:42
resources you need to divert to doing that you know?
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That's probably the hardest thing with horses, right, is
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they kind of bring out their bring out the places where we
9:52
need to do work. But as most things in life, it's
9:56
a lot easier to blame that on some external force or to blame
10:01
it on the horse. You know, this horse is
10:02
difficult rather than to kind of like look at our skill set, what
10:07
we're doing and see, OK, what do I need to do different?
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What I'm doing is not working. I can only control myself.
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I can't make this horse suddenly be something that's not.
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But it is a lot easier to just step out and just blame the
10:20
horse. It was a difficult horse.
10:21
Get rid of the horse, send it to a trainer.
10:23
You know, blame the breed, whatever it might be.
10:27
Absolutely yes. That's a.
10:28
Great observation. That's so true.
10:30
I was really fortunate. I was really lucky.
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I heard Joe Walter say this about when he was around Ray.
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He said I was so fortunate because I never had to question
10:40
the competence of him. And I was around Dad and these
10:44
phenomenal horsemen from Man, from Snowy River guys up in the
10:48
mountains of Northern Arizona. And then I was around Martin and
10:53
Wade and Jr. and ton of great horsemen.
10:58
And I was so blessed that I never had to question their
11:02
competence or that they knew what they were doing or what
11:04
they were doing was right. And so there is, it's tricky.
11:09
It's a tricky thing because we're all apprentices in a craft
11:12
where no one becomes the master, Hemingway said.
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And that's. That's the truth.
11:17
Yeah. Did you, as you were growing up
11:19
and learning about horses, did you see that difference?
11:21
Did you realize, like your dad was doing something different
11:24
than? Because for people who may or
11:26
may not be familiar, there were some pretty intense methods used
11:31
to, quote UN quote, break a horse in a lot of circles where
11:35
people were working with horses. Could you tell the difference?
11:37
Did you see some of that variance where it's like, my dad
11:41
does this and other people are doing things that are terrifying
11:44
the horses to get them to do what they would like them to do?
11:47
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I really did.
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And I was always conscious of that from the time I was a kid
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on. Yeah, that.
11:55
And I think that was again where I was just so blessed and so
11:58
fortunate I didn't do anything to earn that.
12:00
I won. Won the.
12:02
Lottery, I guess and so. I see.
12:06
I look at my life and see how it could have went a lot of
12:08
different ways. I did see quite a bit of that.
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I think that there's always the caricature of, you know, the the
12:20
person that is like that. And those people certainly
12:24
exist. It was a different world where
12:26
it was an agricultural job and a lot of guys were just trying to
12:30
get a job done and they didn't have skills.
12:32
And I don't. And I'm not making excuses for.
12:34
Them or anything like. That maybe we could delve into
12:36
this later, but eventually I studied moral psychology.
12:40
And so I think that you you could I could have an
12:42
interesting conversation in the kind of intersection of how to
12:46
help people understand those things.
12:47
But I did see that quite a bit when I was younger.
12:50
But I think the thing that. I tried to.
12:53
Remind people quite a bit about now is is that you can you can
12:59
abuse a horse the other way too and you can create a really
13:03
dangerous horse. And as we have shifted from
13:05
agriculture to hobby horses, I see a lot of really dangerous
13:09
horses frequently. So I think we have to be
13:11
conscious of that now. Yeah.
13:12
And maybe talk a little bit more about that.
13:15
What are some of the philosophies out there that
13:17
maybe are not serving the horse as well?
13:20
And what impact does that have? Because I think, you know, in
13:24
all honesty, these horses are living in a human world.
13:27
And so if they can't learn to function with humans, they are
13:31
at the highest risk of any horses, you know, to end up in a
13:36
kill pen or rescue or whatnot. So yeah, what are some of the
13:42
things you've seen and how that's kind of played out and
13:44
maybe recommendations you have for people?
13:47
That's a great question. I think it ultimately does go
13:50
back to that feeling of resentment and fear, and those
13:55
are not the experiences that I want people to have with horses.
13:59
What do you what do you mean by that?
14:01
Like resentment and fear. Well, I think so much of what
14:04
we've done is Cowboys and kind of horsemen is doing a job with
14:08
a horse together and there's something that really comes with
14:11
that. It's kind of like a guy that
14:13
doesn't speak English and you don't speak his language and but
14:16
you guys live together and so you go, we got to put a roof on
14:19
that barn and he's like, you go barn.
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He's like barn perfect little bit.
14:25
Every day we get more and more together and pretty soon we have
14:28
this awesome relationship. And so for me, there's a thing
14:31
that I'm searching for in horsemanship in the beginning of
14:34
training that worst. I want to give him fuse to kind
14:37
of regulate his own nervous system to come down from that
14:40
sympathetic towards that parasympathetic nervous system,
14:43
get dopamine and serotonin. And then that way when he gets
14:47
bothered, I don't need a bigger aid, a bigger, whether it's a
14:53
spur, a bit a crop, I can actually give him what he wants,
14:56
which is relief, dopamine and serotonin.
14:59
And he'll seek those maneuvers. And so in the beginning of
15:02
working with a horse, that's what I want him to get from me.
15:05
And then I want him to eventually start to seek those
15:07
cues on his own. And so that way when that bull
15:10
comes towards you, you can pick up the four quarters and spin
15:14
your horse and lay your rope on him.
15:16
And so you have what I, what I've heard called Dosa Suno 2 is
15:20
one that for me is where I want a horse to be.
15:22
What I think you can do going the other way is you can
15:26
conceptualize. If I make a horse move his feet,
15:29
I scared him and that's bad. And you can create a ticking
15:33
time bomb. And as much as the owners
15:36
frequently don't want to admit it, I think they're scared
15:39
around their horses quite a bit. They can't lead them anywhere.
15:41
They're dragging them around. They have a hard time getting
15:44
them in a trailer. They have a hard time doing
15:46
basic industry standard tasks and so I know if I went and I
15:55
needed to put a leppy calf across my saddle and carry him
15:58
home, and I hadn't worked with my horse enough to where I
16:01
couldn't ride him with one hand if he wanted to run off back to
16:04
the barn constantly. Yeah.
16:06
I'd be resentful when I got home a little bit, right?
16:09
Yeah, I'd go. We're not.
16:10
Dos Assino, you're actually a sellout.
16:13
I'm offering you a good deal and I'm trying to get a good deal
16:16
back from you and and you're just waiting to sell out and
16:21
quit me. We don't have a partnership.
16:24
We don't have a relationship. There's me making you do
16:26
something. And so that's not the
16:30
relationship I want people to have with their horses.
16:33
And that's not the relationship that's ultimately going to serve
16:36
the horse. Who is who?
16:38
I'm really there. For because that resentment is
16:39
going to build, you know, if you had.
16:41
To pay what it. Costs to feed a horse and upkeep
16:44
a horse and you couldn't lead him.
16:47
You're telling me you're not going to come to resent him?
16:49
OK. You know, so for me, that kind
16:53
of doses 2 and O2 is 1 Relationship is what I want
16:56
everyone to have with their horse.
16:57
And I want the horse to have ultimately because it serves
17:00
him. And yeah, I just think that if
17:04
you don't start there, if you start with it being this
17:07
instead, I'm sure what you experienced in psychology,
17:11
holding tension of the ability to be assertive, not aggressive,
17:14
all these things that you work through that are messy with
17:17
horses that you just have to be patient and have some emotional
17:21
fitness and emotional resilience to work through.
17:23
If you don't understand that that's what it's going to be,
17:25
and your conceptualization from some pseudo celebrity has been
17:29
that it's going to be all cosmic, then I think eventually
17:32
it's going to become an unsafe situation for you and the horse.
17:35
Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.
17:38
And going kind of back to the psychological aspects, there's a
17:42
quote that I well a saying that I use a lot now, which is choose
17:46
guilt over resentment. So by nature, I'm kind of a
17:50
people pleaser. I want things to be OK.
17:52
I want everyone to be happy, you know, And when you do that, it
17:55
creates a lot of resentment. But it's interesting that you
17:57
use that terminology for horses and that it can create
18:01
resentment because I think the other side of that is that
18:04
people are feeling guilty. Like, I don't want to scare my,
18:07
I don't want my to hurt my horse.
18:09
I don't want them to do something they don't want to do.
18:12
And so I would almost say that it's a feeling that you are
18:18
something you need to deal with internally because there's some
18:21
emotional attachment that is creating these interactions with
18:26
your horse where, you know, just say you're coddling him too much
18:30
so that he's not learning the things that he needs to to be a
18:34
safe, successful member of this world.
18:37
And I think a lot of that would stem internally where, you know,
18:41
you're relieving your feelings of guilt that are uncomfortable
18:44
to have because you don't want to do something.
18:48
The horse that you perceive in bad light, like you kind of
18:51
said, you move the horse's feet and it scares them.
18:53
And that assumption is like, it's bad for us to be scared.
18:57
It's bad for us to do things that are uncomfortable.
18:59
And I think both for horses and for ourselves, like, no, those
19:02
are the places where it's like we have to like go to those
19:05
places in order to progress. Yeah, that's such a great
19:08
observation that absolutely, I have so much to say about this.
19:12
I'll try to keep it succinct. But yeah, that's why through
19:16
Vicaro horsemanship, we wear a tie.
19:19
That's why we wear we have silver bits and silver gear.
19:23
To me anyway, it's a proper amount of pride.
19:27
It's not ego, it's a it's I care about myself.
19:30
I love myself enough not to let you harm me.
19:34
And I will offer you the best deal.
19:37
I do this in my business. I will offer you the best deal I
19:40
can offer you. I promised you I will make it as
19:42
sweet as I can make it. I'll be as patient as I can, but
19:45
do not mistake me for a fool. And I think that's you have to
19:51
have that in any. Relationship with a horse or
19:53
with a. Person and I think it's actually
19:56
a deeper love. You know, it might be one of the
19:59
Greek forms of love. I think what I try to tell that
20:02
horse is this person. It's not their fault, but for
20:05
whatever reason they don't believe in themselves and they
20:07
don't believe in you. And I really, I really believe
20:11
in you. I really know what you're
20:13
capable of. I know that one day you could
20:16
pack a silver bridal and you could be in the middle of a
20:19
branding pan with hooky cows and fires.
20:24
And I know you're a flight animal in the humans world and
20:29
you're afraid of everything. Yeah.
20:31
But over the course of me working with you, I'm going to.
20:34
Teach you to be brave. I'm going to slowly.
20:37
Teach you to regulate. That nervous system and the
20:39
thing that you're going to come out being on the other side is
20:44
crazier than, you know, you sitting in the basement and
20:48
being 40 years old and still playing World of Warcraft
20:50
because, you know, and I actually believe in you and I
20:54
know you don't believe in yourself yet.
20:55
And so that's kind of the way I conceptualize that.
20:59
Like a horse is meant to move his feet.
21:02
He gets relief from moving his speed actually, because he's a
21:04
flight animal and and so we can really use that to create a
21:09
brave horse and and I believe in every horse that way.
21:12
I've never seen one yet that was too far gone or anything that he
21:17
couldn't come back from it and he couldn't come out something
21:21
that he was a lot. I know that quite a bit about
21:25
the neuroscience behind horses. I know that I'm
21:27
anthropomorphizing them, but you'll see those bridle horses
21:30
proud when they're packing a silver bridle and they're and
21:34
they're bridled up and they're brave.
21:35
They're proud. I don't know if that's a great
21:37
word, but to me, they're proud. And still I try to tell those
21:40
horses, look, right now I'm your only friend in the world.
21:44
I don't need anything from you, but I'm going to teach you to be
21:47
brave. And so that's the relationship I
21:48
want to have with them. But yeah, that's an interesting
21:51
topic and we can talk quite a bit about.
21:53
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
21:55
I think it's definitely a thing in our culture that people are
21:58
struggling with a lot is kind of that fear and that bravery and
22:02
having the balance between, you know, like you say, sitting in
22:06
your basement watching TV your whole life versus going and
22:09
doing those things that you have more potential for.
22:14
Kind of same thing with the horse, right?
22:15
They can they can just sit out in a pasture in a Krell and eat
22:19
and they will live that way. But how much are we undermining
22:24
that potential because we're not willing to have a little bit of
22:28
bravery? And I think a lot of that goes
22:30
back to a lot of those things that are projected onto the
22:33
horse. Like like we often hear they are
22:35
incredible mirrors. And so, yeah, if we are fearful
22:39
so much, most likely that's kind of how we're living life and
22:43
that's kind of how we're facing our own world that we're then
22:47
putting over to the horse. So of course he's terrified
22:49
because he's like, you're scared of everything.
22:52
I definitely experienced that a little bit with my first
22:55
Mustang. I was like, Oh my gosh, I just
22:57
had so much personal insight about how afraid I am and things
23:02
in life. Yeah.
23:03
Talk to us a little bit more about the vaquero.
23:06
Did I even say that? Right?
23:07
Yeah, absolutely. Kind of the principles and
23:11
approaches that they use, because I know that's a big
23:13
thing that you rely on. Yeah.
23:18
So there's no, again, like with the natural horsemanship,
23:21
there's no, there's nobody really has a claim to what we're
23:24
doing And and what we're doing is not all the same thing.
23:28
They kind of look the same sometimes and our cousins, but
23:31
everybody's got their own flavor, Doctor Pepper, whatever.
23:34
So, but the main thing about the Carroll horsemanship is
23:37
everything we do relies on a signal.
23:39
And so like those hackamores, we start out in the three quarter
23:43
hackamore, the the basal hackamore is just Spanish for
23:48
halter. And so I could go into the
23:50
Spanish traditions and what great horsemen they are and how
23:53
that came from the Moors out of Spain.
23:54
But they were some of the greatest horsemen of all time.
23:57
Calvary men. And everything we do relies on a
24:00
signal. We don't use any leverage
24:02
devices. So like a snaffle obviously is a
24:05
one to one pull and then you have leverage bits, etcetera.
24:08
But that hackamore is just a halter and a horse could jerk it
24:12
out of your hand anytime he wants.
24:13
He could get hard to it, he could run off.
24:16
He really it's it's a bluff. It's an illusion of control.
24:20
So what we have to do is teach that horse so want to do the
24:28
maneuvers that we want him to do in just the rawhide halter.
24:34
And the way to do that is to kind of use some principles and
24:37
natural horsemanship which came from for Carol horsemanship.
24:40
It really was the same thing. I find it so interesting because
24:43
it's like we think we discover stuff and it's like you go back
24:46
and look, it's like people were already there a while ago.
24:49
Sure there was a cannon. For sure there is a cannon for
24:52
horsemanship and and then kind of the age of the clinician
24:57
pseudo celebrity. I think some people are really
24:59
good at getting that to the public and rebranding and
25:02
remarketing. And that's fine.
25:03
That's good. The more people that know it,
25:05
the better and it but kind of like karate, it got watered down
25:08
a little bit, you know what I mean?
25:10
And so, but in these signal devices, you're going to need a
25:13
horse to steal that dopamine and serotonin and want to do those
25:18
maneuvers. So for me, I know the horse is a
25:19
flight animal. I know he's afraid of
25:21
everything. The greatest relief I can give
25:23
him is not a treat. It's not a punishment.
25:26
It's relief from fear. And so if I can use the field
25:30
timing and balance and and have some good groundwork going and I
25:34
can get him to stop and lip lick his lips and come back down from
25:38
that sympathetic nervous system to that parasympathetic nervous
25:41
system when I cue him with the rain and that rain is tied to
25:44
that foot, he'll want to do that.
25:47
And then later on I can pick up his feet and move them like
25:51
they're my own. Say I'm on the side of a
25:53
mountain and it's pretty hairy and there's some cows going by
25:56
me and I need to take just one step.
25:57
Not 2 steps, just one. I can pick up his feet and move
26:02
them like they're my own. And so the only way you can do
26:05
that is by training their nervous system.
26:07
Because we just use this device as a signal.
26:10
We have no leverage over them. We can't tie their heads down
26:14
and get bigger, stronger, any of that.
26:17
It has to just be. Reliant.
26:18
On them being a partner and then following a signal and then
26:21
later on it ends up in a spade bit which is a signal device.
26:25
You know it's the old vaqueros would tie a piece of horsehair.
26:28
In their rain. Chains and you'd ride your
26:31
circle and if you broke, well, maybe a couple pieces of
26:33
horsehair. But if you broke those, if you
26:36
broke those pieces because you got too heavy with your hands,
26:40
that was too much signal. And so anyway, the point of that
26:44
is the Carroll horsemanship largely relies on signal.
26:47
And so I prefer it. It's not the quickest way to get
26:50
a horse in the Chopin. There's a lot of disadvantages
26:53
to it. You know, it's not for
26:56
experienced riders. What I've tried to do is, and I
27:00
think a lot of guys have tried to do is, is add some snaffle
27:03
bit stuff in there and get it to where it's more accessible to
27:07
the general public. Because if you pull on that
27:10
hackamore instead of bumping and that horse learns to pull back
27:16
once, well, that's it. You're never going to be able to
27:19
ride him in a hack more again. And so that that's gotten some
27:23
of the principles of it. It relies on signal and kind of
27:26
and regulating that nervous system and and teaching them
27:29
seek that dopamine, serotonin. Yeah, that's interesting.
27:31
I like that way you distinguish that because a lot of us learn
27:37
or in a lot of circles, it is kind of an element of control.
27:40
Like you got to control your horse.
27:42
You need to be in control. You know, in the show ring, they
27:44
won't let you ride in some areas without bridles because you have
27:48
to have that control. So I like that.
27:50
The place you put it is it's like a communication device is
27:53
what I'm understanding. It's a way that you guys are
27:56
talking to each other and to understand what the other, the
28:00
other being wants. And it's interesting because
28:03
like you said, you know, if you pull too hard against the hack
28:06
more the horse is going to be jerking its head.
28:08
It's like, well, you communicated something that just
28:11
wasn't what you probably wanted to communicate.
28:13
It probably is not going to go the way you want, but maybe talk
28:17
a little bit more about that. And maybe also related to fear,
28:21
because I think fear and control are very closely related.
28:24
We kind of seek control because we fear.
28:28
So, yeah, maybe talk a little bit about control and if you
28:31
have thoughts on it, how that's related to fear.
28:33
Because from my experience, from what I've seen with other people
28:36
and even in our life, not just horsemanship, a lot of times we
28:39
want control so badly because we are afraid.
28:44
And we kind of see that with things that happen in the world,
28:46
you know, with, with COVID and things we're, we're so fearful
28:50
that it's suddenly it's like we need so much control to ensure
28:53
something doesn't happen that we don't want to happen.
28:57
When I mean, let's be honest, the reality is life's going to
29:00
stuff's going to happen that we don't want to happen.
29:02
We can't always control it. So do you have anything to add
29:05
about those relationship between those two?
29:08
Yeah, I think you know fear. Does somewhat stem from a lack
29:12
of understanding and if you understand those horses?
29:15
Pretty well. There's not a lot of reason to
29:18
fear them. They're big, you know, They're
29:20
big flight animals for sure. And they have, you know, driving
29:26
factors, what my old college professor called driving factors
29:28
or herbivore. They're going to seek comfort
29:30
and companionship. They want to go.
29:31
I think it's ultimately how you conceptualize that.
29:34
And I think that's a little bit where some kind of clinicians
29:38
have done the whole industry a disservice is conceptualized.
29:42
It is a relationship, but not in a transactional way.
29:47
It's more like a relationship between you and a kid.
29:49
A friend of mine asked me about this.
29:51
He said his kids goal. So how's the kid?
29:54
Like 6 or 7? And I'm like, what?
29:56
That's what kids do. They don't.
29:58
They take stuff they want. Yeah.
30:01
You know what are you? There's no reason to be mad
30:02
about that. You just got.
30:03
To kind of slowly school them into that.
30:05
That's not what we do. And so I think if you understand
30:10
that horse, there's no reason to fear him if you understand what
30:13
he's going to do. There was an old mentor of mine
30:15
that said are we influencing the soul?
30:18
Or are we forcing the body and you can, You can frame a horse
30:22
up, you can tie his dead down, you can get a tie his mouth
30:25
shut, bigger bit bigger spur, bigger crop and then frame him
30:28
up really nice. But that's why we used to value
30:32
riding a horse with one hand. That's why we thought that was
30:35
worth showing because in the old Vaquera tradition, in the old
30:39
Conquistador tradition, if you had a battle horse you could
30:42
ride with one hand that was really with you or rope a cow
30:45
with, with a riata, that was worth showing off because that
30:50
horse was really with you. And so I think a lot of those
30:53
things with the fear, it comes from times that we wouldn't be
30:58
truthful with ourself and say, I'm afraid and I need some
31:01
skills, I need some understanding, I need some
31:05
conceptualization to do with this, to know what to do with
31:08
this. There were so many times I've
31:10
climbed on hundreds and hundreds of horses.
31:13
I was afraid when I was a little guy with my dad.
31:16
Hurry up there. And I was like, hold on the
31:18
sound of horn, right? I had to face that.
31:21
I had to face a lot of the fear that I had in my own self coming
31:24
out of service or whatever. And yeah, I'm trying to.
31:27
I'm rambling here and not right threading the through line I
31:30
suppose, but. I just think a.
31:31
Lot of that fear and wanting to control that horse comes from a
31:35
lack of understanding of him. And a lack of.
31:38
Tools and then seeing the 1st and not a particularly wealthy
31:44
framework. Of understanding that horse is
31:47
just a horse, he just wants what he wants and seeing each horse
31:51
is a sentient. Being in an individual.
31:55
That was one thing that I learned from some of those guys,
31:58
was they just go, yeah. You can make a really nice horse
32:01
for the price of a hospital bill.
32:04
If that horse wants the buck really bad, respect him and he
32:08
can go. Be a bucket horse, you know he
32:10
can go. There are one in 10,000 horses
32:14
that it's like, well, that seems to be what he wants to.
32:16
Do and so I have. Something akin to like a big 5
32:21
personality traits for horses that I can kind of read in them.
32:25
And there's some horses like I'm sure if you're a psychologist,
32:28
you go, oh, in empathy. Really disagreeable.
32:33
It's like you start getting to that level where it's like, I'm
32:36
not going to say that person's a psychopath, but it's like,
32:39
that's kind of a that's a tough character and maybe this is not
32:42
the right role for him to be Grandma's trail horse.
32:45
Yeah, right. So when you can read horses.
32:48
Like that and you have that relationship to them.
32:51
I think there's a lot less reason to be afraid of them.
32:55
Yeah. I think that is true that a lot
32:58
of times we dismiss their personality that these horses
33:02
are different and it's crazy how different they can be.
33:04
You can be with one horse trying to do something and their
33:08
reaction is going to be completely different from
33:10
another horse because because of their personality and that the
33:14
way they are. And I think a lot of times we
33:16
kind of take that out of the equation.
33:17
We just focus on like, you know, I want to do XY and Z, how is
33:21
that going to happen? And if I can't do it, then where
33:23
do we go? Absolutely.
33:26
Absolutely. Yeah.
33:26
And and you need to have a program where every horse can
33:29
pass it no matter where he is on that spectrum.
33:33
And then every once in a blue moon, you have an outlier that
33:36
you go, it's not that we couldn't do this, it's that the
33:40
amount of time and money is not. Yeah.
33:42
It's not going to work and so maybe the source needs to go to
33:45
a button string maybe? That's yeah.
33:47
There's some guys that need to go to the UFC because if you
33:49
tried to give them a job at at Walmart, they'd be pretty
33:53
unhappy and everybody around them would be pretty unhappy.
33:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point.
34:00
What was I just going to ask you?
34:02
You said something. Probably too much, no?
34:04
No, no, no, it's great. That's what we're here for is to
34:06
talk, OK? That's that's what this is all
34:09
about. No, I was going to ask you what
34:11
are some of the things you said and you mentioned it a few times
34:14
like every horse should be able to pass the program.
34:16
What are some things that informs programs like that
34:20
differently where you are, you know, working for the horse to
34:24
be successful? Could you kind of reformulate
34:27
the beginning of the question a little bit so I understand a
34:29
little bit more? I'm sorry.
34:30
Yeah. Just like what are some of the
34:31
differences that or what are some of the different strategies
34:34
that would be used in a program like that where it's like, you
34:37
know, the goal is for the horse to succeed.
34:39
Yeah. I think part of what I learned
34:43
from Wade Black. Was.
34:45
Having kind of measurable, quantitative and qualitative.
34:49
Goals. Qualitative.
34:50
Goals for a horse? With horses as you know you.
34:53
Have to meet them where they are every day.
34:55
So if I go out and I want to work on my spins or my slides or
34:59
my stops today and my horse was thrown in his head, when I go to
35:02
bridle them, I'm going to stop. Right there and Wade would say
35:05
task completion is a temperament and foundation.
35:09
So if the. Temperaments not right?
35:10
If that horse is running around crazy, I might do some
35:14
groundwork with him first until I decrease some of that excess
35:18
energy. That's fuel and self
35:19
preservation. So then the temperaments, right?
35:21
I need some foundation. I need to be able to touch him
35:24
all over his nose. I need to be able to touch him
35:26
on his ears. I need to be able to touch him a
35:28
few times with that bridle. I need to be able to stick my
35:31
finger in his mouth and have him break his jaw, get some dopamine
35:34
and serotonin and me give him relief when I've got the
35:37
temperament right. When he has the foundation, the
35:40
task completion will come. And so much of our troubles with
35:44
horses is when we start with task completion and we go out
35:48
there and say this is what I'm going to do with this horse
35:50
today. This is where.
35:51
He's at and this is what I'm going to do and there's no
35:54
communication. And there's no checking in where
35:57
the horse is in his understanding of
35:59
conceptualization. So I want to have a program
36:02
that's structured like that. That being said, we need some
36:05
goals, you know? It's again, it's that balance.
36:08
It's that. Balance it's.
36:10
The tricky part of life it is. And horsemanship.
36:13
It is, it is and so I want to. I want to have a program to
36:18
where that horse has ample amount of time to be able to
36:22
meet all those goals that I have for him in the 1st 90 days, the
36:25
1st 120 days. And I have a list of things that
36:28
I send to clients. This is what your horse will be
36:30
able to do after 120 days. Basic raining pattern, loading a
36:34
trailer, standard stand for a rider, etcetera.
36:37
But I think that's the way you want to structure those things.
36:39
But I also have something similar to a report card where I
36:42
can say our horse can't do these things and This is why this is
36:46
where he's at and this is what this is the tutoring that he
36:49
needs to get up to speed. Yeah.
36:52
And so I think that. That's that's a good recipe for
36:55
a good, a good program is to annotate those things and know
37:00
where that horse is at every day and just meet him where he's at
37:04
and he's going to get as far as he's going to get.
37:06
Yeah, a few things. Talk to us a little bit more
37:10
about like timelines and the timelines we have with horses
37:16
mentioned a few times. Just, you know, you give them
37:18
the time that they need. It's kind of a tricky topic
37:22
because, you know, people send their horses away to a trainer
37:24
for 30 days and have these expectations when they come
37:26
back. And like you kind of pointed
37:29
out, like sometimes that's just not always going to be possible
37:31
to do in a with a good foundation.
37:33
A lot of times a trainer can get those things done, but not
37:37
necessarily something that's going to be lasting.
37:41
Yeah, absolutely. A lot to be said there.
37:43
I think that ultimately the the dollar is what drives everything
37:49
and we have to be cognizant of that.
37:51
And it's really unfortunate and I've tried to structure my life
37:54
to where I don't have to operate like that.
37:59
We talked. A little bit about abuse
38:01
earlier, kind of how that looked back in the day when I was
38:05
younger. A lot of times what they don't
38:07
tell you now though, is you send your horse to a guy like me and
38:11
I tell you it's going to take X amount of time and this is what
38:14
it's going to cost. Yeah, there's a guy out there
38:16
that I promised you will tell you he's a horse whisperer and
38:19
he can get your horse there quick and he will take your
38:23
money. And it's usually the client
38:25
driving a lot of this. Abuse.
38:28
They want to show their horse, right?
38:29
They want the bottom dollar. They want to show their horse
38:32
and then they turn around and go, why is there all these
38:34
abusive horse trainers? Well, because you fired everyone
38:37
that told you the. Truth.
38:38
Yeah, right. Yeah, I think that's a good
38:41
point. Like, let's be realistic
38:43
because, yeah, why are there 30 day trainers out there?
38:46
Because that's what horse owners want.
38:48
They want a horse that they can send away and come back and have
38:52
things the way that they would like them.
38:53
Exactly. And so I'm trying to find that
38:55
virtue where I'm kind of in the middle of going, hey, I respect
38:59
your time and your money. Mm hmm.
39:02
And I want this horse to be where he can be.
39:04
I want to say that I'm skilled enough, I can get this horse
39:07
where he needs to. Be.
39:09
As maximally efficient as possible, but ultimately there's
39:13
no amount of money you could ever pay me to sacrifice my
39:15
relationship to that horse. Each horse that I work with,
39:19
it's a sacred relationship to me.
39:20
Another reason why you wear a tie and you have a silver bit
39:24
was to kind of respect the sacredness of what you're doing
39:28
every time you step into a round crowling arena with that horse
39:30
to remind yourself that this is serious business.
39:32
This is a sentient beings life in your hands so pay attention.
39:37
Jack. So ultimately, a lot of times
39:40
it's the people that claim that they want ethical horsemanship
39:43
the most are the quickest to go. Well, also I got a bottom dollar
39:49
and I'm going to send it to this guy who tells me he's a horse
39:52
whisperer and does natural horsemanship just like you, but
39:55
he ties his head down and all kinds of stuff to frame some up
39:58
real quick and sense of that and so.
40:00
Yeah. I think having a realistic
40:03
timeline, like I won't take a horse for less than 90 days or
40:05
120 days and. Yeah.
40:08
And I think that's a a safe amount of time.
40:13
You should be able to get quite a bit done during that time.
40:17
And yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with timelines.
40:20
And again in the Vicarostale Horsemanship, it takes eight
40:22
years to make a bridal horse. I believe that.
40:25
It's been my experience. And so it's really funny because
40:30
the industry usually works the way that it works for a reason.
40:33
Yeah. A nice horse cost a lot of money
40:36
because he was at a. Church for a long time.
40:38
Yeah. And the other ones are meeting a
40:40
demand that's out there. Absolutely.
40:42
Yeah, how, how important, like when you work with a horse, how
40:46
important is the owner in that process or the person that's
40:50
ultimately going back to? It's crucial that's.
40:53
Crucial. Quite a lot of.
40:55
What I do is client education back to that unsafe horse.
40:59
You. Sat on that horse bareback for
41:01
30 days and then you could ride him around an arena and a
41:03
snaffle bit and I could ride him around the arena and snaffle
41:06
bit. Maybe the owner can't tell the
41:07
difference and so I need to. Say, well, I've.
41:11
Taken your horse out and I've rode him down the road.
41:14
I've done the X with him. I need that client to understand
41:18
the difference in what I do and what other people do for it to
41:21
have any value to them. Otherwise they can't see the
41:24
difference. And I need that client and that
41:26
horse to be able to fill in for each other because I need it to
41:29
be a good deal for them ultimately.
41:32
And so the client's everything. The client is everything.
41:35
So much of what I struggled with is the young.
41:37
I hate being called the horse trainer.
41:40
Yeah. Training horses, but it's the
41:42
best word. But as a young horse trainer, I
41:45
was reading out. Science are just going to be
41:49
tough. It was going to be a bad deal
41:51
for me. It was going to be a bad deal
41:52
for the. Horse.
41:54
And I hate to say that, but when I was in college, they taught us
41:59
that. I don't know if this statistic
42:00
holds that in the horse industry, the five to 90% of the
42:08
people are horse owners and then the other percentage is
42:12
professionals in the industry. And the average horse owner is a
42:16
is a first time horse owner. He's owned a horse for five
42:18
years and he owns two to three horses.
42:20
And So what you have is a large amount of the people out there
42:24
driving the industry may not have the skills or even basic
42:29
folkways or mores. You know, they can't tell the
42:31
difference between a guy that's trained horses his whole life
42:34
and a guy that's kind of a pseudo celebrity clinician.
42:37
And they need help. And so however willing they are
42:41
to accept help is how ultimately how successful you're going to
42:45
be with them. Yeah, going back to what you
42:49
kind of talked about how you have to meet the horse, where
42:51
it's at. And you know, you know, you
42:53
talked about if you put the bridle on, the horse starts
42:55
shaking its head like you need to start somewhere besides
42:57
putting the bridle on. Sure.
43:00
What are some things that like you would recommend people doing
43:03
to? I think really what it is like
43:05
listening to your horse better to be able to kind of identify
43:09
that and listen to your horse better so you can, you know,
43:12
accomplish the things you want to and be successful in, you
43:16
know, the goals that you have. It's a great question.
43:18
I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this.
43:20
That horse will tell you where he's at.
43:23
It's your experience. They absolutely do.
43:26
People listening is another issue about yeah.
43:31
If you're experiencing resistance somewhere, then
43:34
that's that horse telling you there's a lack of understanding.
43:37
If he's linging his head to be bridled, if you know he leans
43:41
away to be haltered anywhere, you're experiencing resistance
43:45
somewhere, your horse didn't understand something and someone
43:48
forced task completion. He leaned his head away and they
43:52
just went slapped that halter on there.
43:55
You missed the foundational maneuver, which is I need you to
43:57
hold your head straight down and let me touch you all over.
43:59
And so I'm always looking for, it's kind of like, you know, in
44:03
philosophy, they say you're doing philosophy whether you
44:05
know it or not. And so you're training a horse,
44:07
whether you know it or not, every time you're around him.
44:10
And I'm always looking for those little signs.
44:13
Tighten the lips, you know, watching their nose, their
44:15
breathing rate, all the physiological things that we
44:18
talked about to see where that horse is AT and what party's not
44:21
understanding of this. And if he comes back down and
44:25
one clenches that jaw and goes back into that sympathetic
44:28
nervous system, I know we learned something.
44:30
Whether it's something good or something bad, it's ultimately
44:33
up to me, you know? Yeah.
44:35
How do you kind of distinguish between like this is a place
44:40
where the horses either reaching this threshold or you're
44:43
advancing too fast, versus like this is a place where we're
44:48
going out of your comfort zone, You know, we're pushing you a
44:51
little past where you're comfortable so that you can
44:53
learn? How do you find that balance
44:55
between not, I guess, not being too soft, not being too hard,
45:01
kind of finding that middle place where it's like a good
45:03
place for the horse to be learning and to be gaining that
45:06
understanding? Wade would say.
45:08
There's the science, the art and the business.
45:13
You need all three of those things.
45:14
Yeah. And so that's the art.
45:17
That's the art of coursemanship for sure.
45:20
And you got to just thousands of horses and you have to get
45:23
around the right people. Martin Black could get done in
45:27
three days when I could get done.
45:30
In a month. Because his ability to read that
45:34
horse and his field timing and balance was so impeccable.
45:38
He knew when they were right at the top, getting close to that
45:42
sympathetic nervous system and there was quite a bit of stress
45:46
going on there. And then he'd drop them back
45:49
down, give him some understanding.
45:51
They lick their lips and kind of program that.
45:54
And realize they're OK. I survived.
45:57
Yep. And then he'd take them back up,
45:59
back down. And he'd he'd.
46:01
Do it so well that it was just, it was it.
46:03
It was art, and it's the art that I practice every day.
46:07
Yeah. And there's some guys that are
46:08
really, really, really good at it.
46:10
So. That's kind of an abstract
46:12
answer, but. Yeah, you know, I'm always.
46:15
Watching for those physiological signs, Obviously I'm making sure
46:18
there's plenty of dwell time, making sure I see them lick
46:21
their lips and have what we call lick their lips.
46:23
It's really just they clench their jaw, get that dopamine,
46:27
serotonin, come back down to the parasympathetic nervous system.
46:31
But watching all of that, you almost can't go slow enough
46:35
sometimes. Yeah, it doesn't mean that.
46:38
Stress them, but that. Means.
46:39
Wait for, well, time long enough.
46:42
Yeah, whatever it took you. Like if it took you 30 seconds
46:45
of just holding tension with your flag, I'd triple that.
46:49
I'd wait. Minute and 30 seconds.
46:51
I'd wait 2 minutes, 5 minutes maybe for them to lick their
46:54
lips. I'd be surprised.
46:56
I've never been surprised how many times they might go and
47:00
lick their lips again. And they might do.
47:02
That two or three. Times if you'll wait long
47:03
enough. I've waited a long time and it
47:06
seems like you're going slow then, but it's actually actually
47:09
maximally efficient because if. It's a little worse that way and
47:13
it'll take me 5 minutes to get some basic cast done putting a
47:16
halter on him. When I go to put it on him
47:18
tomorrow, he'll really have it. 1st as I had the.
47:20
School on him tomorrow and the next day and eventually he gets
47:25
it. But so you just about can't wait
47:27
on him long enough. Yeah, if any of that.
47:29
Helps. Yeah, no, I think it does a lot.
47:32
1 you know, there is no replacement for time and being
47:35
willing to learn from the horse. I think something if you're
47:38
going to succeed with your horse, you definitely have to
47:40
have. And then I think the other piece
47:43
is it's really tricky because we live in this world that's like
47:46
go, go, go, do, do do you know? And when you enter the world
47:49
with horses, it's almost the opposite, like stop, wait, you
47:53
know, slow down, like you said, more than you think you should
47:56
be slowing down. So that's really interesting.
47:58
I think that's it's good principles to be mindful of when
48:02
you're working with the horse that you know, we're our world
48:05
is much different than theirs, so we're going in from a very
48:08
different perspective. Yeah.
48:11
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great observation.
48:13
Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's the best feeling to just being
48:16
around crowd with one and and and shut out the world.
48:20
And it really can't be art to you.
48:23
Yeah. If you just try to make it the
48:25
best experience you can for the horse and the best experience.
48:28
You can for. Yourself and it really and
48:30
that's where I think the message of that it is a relationship is
48:34
true yeah some of that got lost when people thought it meant
48:38
there was a transactional relationship like if I if I do
48:42
this you'll do that type deal it's the horse doesn't
48:44
understand that at all but it's a.
48:46
Different. Relationship, but you're right,
48:47
it's the most the most mindful. It's a deep pool that the deeper
48:52
you go, the deeper it gets. I don't know that there's a
48:54
bottom to it and I I don't know where I'm at, but it's, it's
48:57
cool. Yeah, well, and I like that you
48:59
refer to it as the art of horsemanship because when we
49:02
think of art, you know, you're going off how things feel and
49:04
creating, you know what, what feels right.
49:07
And I think, you know, some of that goes back to our intuition.
49:10
If we'll like slow down enough to like listen and observe and
49:14
then kind of see what what we're getting, how to react, then
49:18
yeah, that's cool. I like that, that imagery, that
49:21
it's an art. Yeah, thank you.
49:23
Yeah, I read Rick Rubin's book and it really influenced me.
49:27
And I think there has to be a sense of play for sure.
49:31
It has to be a playful relationship and it has to be
49:35
something you're not doing for the consumer.
49:37
You don't make art with the consumer in mind to make art for
49:40
the sake of making art and so. Yeah.
49:43
Hopefully the consumers turned on to that later and they like
49:46
the product you've made. But it is.
49:49
That's what it is. It's a little piece of art.
49:52
Yeah, I love that you added play in there because how often are
49:55
we like we go out to be with our horse, it's something we enjoy
49:58
and then we're like, I'm going to go on a ride today and it
50:01
doesn't work out. And so it turns into something
50:03
that's not fun and not enjoyable for anyone in the thing where
50:06
here most people that have horses, it's because they really
50:09
love them and there's something that just draws them to them
50:11
about how easily we can lose that if we're too focused on our
50:15
goals. That's a great observation.
50:17
Yep, 100. Percent.
50:19
Yeah. So let's talk about Mustangs.
50:21
How did you become involved with Mustangs and what are some of
50:24
your experiences there and what are you doing now with that?
50:26
Yeah. So I I've worked with quite a
50:30
few over the years, but I've never taken one from the
50:32
beginning. So I was relatively confident
50:36
going into this thinking how many ranch horses have my alter
50:39
started? Yeah.
50:41
They've been turned out on a ranch for three years with the
50:44
Birdmere band. How different could it be?
50:47
Right. Pretty different.
50:49
Yeah, pretty different. Yeah.
50:52
So I had originally. Kind of wanted to do this
50:55
Mustang nonprofit myself, but I was trying to make a living
50:59
schooling. Horses for the.
51:00
Public, and so a mutual friend put me in contact with a friend
51:04
of hers there, and so she said she was going to start a
51:06
nonprofit and that I might be a good fit.
51:10
I was pretty skeptical. As a horse trainer, it's not
51:14
always beneficial to go put all your eggs in one basket with a
51:17
client and then you're kind of at the mercy of their whims.
51:20
Yeah. So I thought thanks, but no
51:24
thanks. But this mutual friend told me,
51:27
well, this lady is, is kind of really cool lady.
51:30
She's works in marketing for the Walt Disney Company and she
51:34
listens. She's a really smart lady and a
51:37
great leader and she listens and will take feedback.
51:41
And so I thought, it's OK. So we kind of started emailing
51:45
and I thought, well, I'll just be useful to her because it's a
51:48
good thing to be useful, you know?
51:51
And I thought, I'll make myself as useful to her as I can.
51:54
I'll kind of answer her emails. But as I did, I just became more
51:57
and more sympathetic to what she was trying to do in kind of this
52:01
sometimes countless transactional world, thought
52:03
this is really cool that this lady's doing this and I want to.
52:06
Help her as much as possible, so I thought.
52:09
I think I might take the job and she came out.
52:13
Our two board. Members Laurie Ann and Sumi came
52:17
out to see me here in in Eastern Oregon and I was just so
52:21
impressed with both of them. Laurie Ann was just this kind of
52:24
super light, full, funny, pithy woman to know where is to love
52:30
her. She's like an alchemist.
52:31
She turns everything into light and fun sense of humor was super
52:35
sharp and she just tied me up like a pretzel so quick I
52:38
couldn't joke back with her. I was, and then Swimming Chang,
52:45
who's our founder, I was just this incredible woman.
52:48
I'd never felt more seen by a person.
52:51
I wasn't sure how. It was kind of like being with a
52:54
horse. One of the things that I had
52:55
struggled with in the business part of this horse schooling or
52:59
horse training was that I would offer people the best deal I
53:02
could offer them. And a lot of times they would
53:04
mistake that and they would take that for granted.
53:07
And then later on, they go, oh, wow, you're really offering me a
53:10
good deal, aren't you? Yeah, sorry.
53:13
And I could tell right away she understood that about me.
53:15
So here they were in Eastern Oregon, one lady from Los
53:18
Angeles, the other from Oklahoma.
53:19
And they're, like, out here to see if I'm the guy, you know?
53:23
And they kind of had this look like we're doing this with or
53:25
without you. Yeah.
53:26
And I just felt so moved and compelled to come work for them
53:31
and kind of what you and I talked about.
53:33
I know a lot of insider baseball from being in the horse industry
53:36
for a long time and kind of have a good feel for how things work,
53:40
I think. And I just felt overwhelmed to
53:44
help them and this pause. So yeah, I decided I'm going to
53:48
go partner with the American Mustang Project and start
53:52
helping them hopefully do something about this Mustang
53:54
situation. Yeah.
53:56
And so tell us a little bit more about that organization and what
53:59
they're working towards and and how they're doing that.
54:03
Yes, so. Our.
54:04
Founder is kind of, I think she's a really special person
54:07
that's kind of really visionary person.
54:10
And so I don't have all the details of where it's going to
54:13
go. Ultimately, I don't want to
54:14
speak for them. Yeah.
54:16
Because I think it's going to go a lot of directions.
54:17
I think it's going to be really cool as far as my role in it.
54:21
And what I know we're wanting to do is, is take some of these
54:26
Mustangs and holding and do what you and I just talked about.
54:29
What we do in the Great Basin is we put a, we're not always known
54:34
for being ground Prix, just outriders.
54:36
We're not known for for a lot of things.
54:39
But what we're known for, Buck Branham and Martin Black, Joe
54:44
Walter, Brian Newport, Great Hunt, Tom Dorrance is putting a
54:47
better, a really good foundation on a horse, a really good 120
54:51
days. We do it as good as anybody in
54:53
the world, I believe. And I'm not saying I'm up there
54:57
with those guys, but I'm trying to do and have tried to do and
55:01
hopefully semi successfully done what they've done over the
55:04
years. And so we're trying to take
55:05
these Mustangs and put a solid foundation on them so that they
55:11
are of value to the consumer and the consumer can take them in
55:14
any direction that they want and have a lifetime partnership with
55:18
this worse. And so we're trying to do that
55:22
for I think as many as we can. We broke ground on a facility in
55:26
Missouri, kind of our flagship facility this last fall of
55:32
October, in November. And we have our first horse
55:36
adopted out to our good friend from Saddles and service, Tammy
55:39
Olevic, a veterans organization. We we could create our first
55:44
66583 I believe and put a solid foundation on her and she went
55:49
to a great home. She's been placed and we have
55:51
6818 Rex, our next horse coming through.
55:53
And so we're kind of rocking and rolling in the infancy, but
55:57
really excited to see where it goes.
55:59
Yeah. That is cool.
56:01
I think it's so important to realize when we can do that for
56:04
the horses. That's when they start to have
56:06
value in our world because, you know, like we all know there are
56:10
so many of them and of course they're beautiful in the wild,
56:12
but we also live in reality where that's, you know,
56:18
everything's not always ideal. So yeah, being able for these
56:21
horses to have that foundation where someone will value them
56:24
and take them into their home and enjoy life with them, it's
56:27
just a really cool, really beautiful thing.
56:30
So what differences have you seen since you've been working
56:32
with Mustangs between the domestic horses and even the
56:36
free roaming ranch horses these. Are kind of paltry things.
56:40
I'm not the best speaker. I'm a little bit of an
56:42
introvert, so I'm a better writer.
56:44
There really is something I, I saw in one of your posts and I
56:47
commented on it about that, but there's there's nothing quite
56:50
like that feeling with those Mustangs when they turn that
56:54
corner and start to want to get with you and want to be with
56:57
you. I don't know if you're familiar
56:59
with Tom Hagwood. I don't want to speak on Tom's
57:02
behalf and I don't know enough about him to really speak super
57:06
broadly. Tom, I know won some stuff in
57:09
the Rained Cow Horse or the reigning and was really good in
57:13
the show world. But now, the last I don't know
57:16
how, 30 years maybe He's done nothing but mustache.
57:21
Really. I haven't.
57:22
I have not even heard his name before.
57:24
Yeah, a lot of people haven't. He's not a big self promoter
57:28
kind of clinic clinic guy. He's just kind of does his thing
57:31
with. Trainers and.
57:33
And but I always wondered, why didn't Tom continue in the rain
57:38
calipers. Yeah, I wasn't really sure.
57:41
And when I did Brietta the first most thing I understand.
57:45
Yeah, I understand. Yeah, yeah.
57:49
So it's just been different. They take a lot of dwell time.
57:53
They're pretty high in self preservation initially.
57:55
But yeah, when they do turn that corner, it's a different feeling
58:01
you've experienced. Yeah, yeah.
58:03
No, I, I mean, I agree, it's hard to, it's hard to explain
58:06
what exactly happens with them. I'm like, I don't know if I even
58:09
know why I was just around this horse and now I feel
58:13
differently. I'm not sure what happened, but
58:15
yeah, they are very cool. As we wrap up, why don't you
58:19
tell people where they can find you?
58:21
All that good stuff. So.
58:24
I have my website Henry Merrill Horsemanship and on the Henry
58:28
Merrill on Instagram because apparently there's a lot of
58:30
other Henry Merrill's out there I couldn't just get.
58:32
Yeah, you gotta get nice. And then you can find American
58:37
Mustang Project online at their website.
58:39
They have Instagram as well. Instagram.
58:41
To end with Is there a horse that stands out in your life for
58:45
a lesson that you've learned from your work and time with
58:47
horses that has kind of been significant or changing for you
58:51
I. Think right now, definitely the
58:53
first Mustang we had, Rihanna reminded me.
58:55
I had come from that natural horsemanship background and had
58:59
been in the show world and kind of got in the habit of
59:02
wondering. I think I can get a worse than.
59:04
She just reminded me so much to slow down and that she is a
59:08
sentient being with her own experiences and her own internal
59:12
world. And yeah, I'm really grateful
59:15
for that. I'm really grateful for her, for
59:18
the special place in my heart that's for kind of bringing me
59:20
back to my roots. Mustangs are pretty awesome.
59:23
Thank you so much for being here.
59:24
I think the work that you're doing and it's incredible and
59:27
I'm so glad we've won you over to the Mustang world.
59:29
I'm glad those ladies were pretty persistent and getting,
59:32
you know, yeah, getting you in here.
59:35
So I think that's exactly what it needs is just people who are
59:38
really wanting to learn and do things the right way and and
59:40
then to share that with other people and to to benefit the
59:45
world around us through that. And so thank you so much for
59:48
coming on here. I thought our discussion was
59:50
great. So many cool ideas that you
59:52
shared and approaches that that you take with the horses and I
59:55
appreciate it, but. Thank you so much for having me.
59:58
Thank you for everything you do and and you have been a.
1:00:01
As part of us collectively being a part of this bigger solution
1:00:05
to this, to this situation. So thank you so much, really
1:00:08
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