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Lagahoos and Soucouyants and Douen, Oh My! · Freshwater Yankee

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Trinidad and Tobago, October 29, 1964, just after 2 a.m.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: A young man walks alone along the train line that cuts through central Trinidad in the Enterprise Village.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's tipsy and lightheaded on a mixture of grog and tobacco, with only a small kerosene lamp in his hand to guide him as he shambles along in the darkness.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: A lamp that he pipped off a table outside the bar as he began his journey home is the only thing that lights his way.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: He charts a steady course with traps on his left and rows of sugar cane on the right.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: As he hums the mighty sparrows, Harry, Elaine, and Lama to lessen his general unease as he traverses the dark, lonely terrain.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Up ahead, a figure steps into the light, cast by a single light post.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Man squints, not quite believing what he is seeing.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the shape of a woman?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why would she be out this late on her own?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: He lurches ahead, somewhat relieved to see another person in this otherwise deserted area.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: As he approaches her, he realizes that he is still humming and that she, a beautiful, boxom young woman, is also humming the same tune in tandem with him.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: She smiles and he instinctively looks around for other people.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: As if reading his thoughts, she shakes her head slowly to confirm that they are indeed alone.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And before he can say anything, she extends her hand in a welcoming gesture.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: He takes it with his free hand and she leads him toward a path between rolls of sugar cane.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: He tries to walk straight and upright, like a sober person would, as he begins to imagine the delights that await him.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps his winning in cards were not the end of his good fortune tonight.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right as he crosses the threshold into the cane field, his lamp goes out, and he blinks rapidly as his eyes try to adjust.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly, her grip tightens, and he finds himself running, straight-legged and bent over as she pulls him along with unimaginable strength.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: A scream catches in his throat.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: As he's pulled deeper into the cane, he can hear the leaves rustling against his rushing body.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: But beneath that there is something else.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: A hollow something that he is all too familiar with.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the sound of hoofs?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: As he finally loses his balance, still being dragged at full speed, the scream finds purchase in his throat, and he cries out into the night.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: But he knows it is too late.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: He falls silent, then begins to scream again, if only to drum out a gentle coming as she pulls him further into the darkness.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I love horror movies.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's the cinematic genre I've explored the most, the one that I go back to literally almost daily.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: People love horror and scary stories for different reasons, but their sociological impact and value cannot be ignored.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Before we dive in, please take a moment to like, subscribe, and give us a five-star rating.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: It only takes a few seconds, but it helps us keep growing the global footprint of this podcast.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Also, this is a friendly warning that while we will be talking about Trinidadian folklore, we will explore some graphic and disturbing content.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if that is not your thing, then this might be a good time to get off on the exit ramp.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And please note that the descriptions of the characters in this episode are by no means definitive.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: These are the versions that I was taught, with a few additional flavors mixed in along the way.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody ready?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, horror has always been about facing fears.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, feeling the pores on my skin raise, fighting the urge to cover my eyes, marveling at fantastical creatures and sinister monsters.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, I always see it as a way to explore the human condition, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Scary stories have always been with us.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine prehistoric men and women huddled around campfires telling each other tales of monsters in the dark, demons that come to take them away, and forces beyond their control.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine that they use these to explain and manage their place, not only in the food chain, but also on this planet as they battle the elements, disease, saber-tooth tigers, mastodons, snakes, scorpions, or any of the other things that they feared from experience, but also the things that we are biologically predisposed to being repulsed by as a way of keeping us as humans from, you know, trying to pet a cobra or kiss a cockroach.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: That innate fear that is built into all of us allows our species to persist.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the strongest pillars of our instinctual makeup, right next to desire, love, attraction, imprinting on our kids, our circadian rhythm, and so on.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: As societies grew and developed, and man figured out ways to move up the food chain and become the apex mammals of the planet, I think our relationship with scary stories changed to some extent.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And in highly developed nations, these stories have evolved, in my opinion, to look more inward and help us deal with new fears, existential threats such as nuclear extinction, pandemics, acid rain, invasion and domination by other cultures, and now the growing threat of artificial intelligence.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: In the United States, for example, our major fears play out in movies, novels, and TV shows, with the internet now serving as a breeding ground for cautionary tales, creepy pastor, and urban legends.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: A big feature of life in Trinidad and Tobago when I was growing up was hearing and sharing folklore stories, tales and characters that had generation after generation been passed down through oral traditions.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: These harken back to our indigenous, African, Indian, and Chinese roots.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But there are many other elements at play here, like other facets of Trinidadian life.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: They have been cross-referenced and mixed together with European, South, and North American influences, with a sprinkling of Middle Eastern and other far-flung cultures to boot.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like every society before us, our scary stories and the characters that inhabit them helped us navigate life.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's fair to say that as a species, we barely understand ourselves.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And most of us spend our lifetimes trying to figure out who we are, but also the world around us.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And good storytellers know that the best tales can reflect the darkness and the light within us, that ongoing and eternal struggle.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: But good storytellers also know that stories help guide us, especially if we hear these tales at a young age.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the most important roles of stories in this context is trying to scare young people straight.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: What better way to get a hardened young person to listen than presenting a tale that amplifies the stakes of bad decision making, a feature of every person with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex and raging hormones?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is not a coincidence that preventative education programs all over the world spot names like Scared Straight.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Scary stories also help us process grief and our inherent lack of clarity on what happens to us when we ultimately shuffle off this mortal coil.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Death is terrifying to most of us, whether it's about losing a loved one or pondering our own transition out of this plane of existence.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: We agonize over what comes next.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you believe in heaven or Svarga as a waiting station before samsara, for most of us, there's the fear of the unknown elements of dying that always looms over us.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Most major religions, philosophies, or atheistic beliefs on this planet deal with this.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some people believe in reincarnation.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Some people believe in purgatory.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Some people believe in simply going straight to heaven or hell.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Some believe that we simply end or that our energy returns to the universe.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Again, though, I think that our hardwired need for self-preservation puts us at odds with the acceptance of what happens when we close our eyes for the last time.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: We can't explain it, and we struggle with the fear surrounding it.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Scary stories are also baked into the very idea of many faith-based belief systems.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do these things and you will go to heaven, but stray from the path and damnation awaits.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, many of the folklore characters that are popular in cultures worldwide have some roots in religion, including some of the ones that we will be discussing today.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Conversely, and somewhat counterintuitively, scary stories allow us to imagine us at our best selves.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now stay with me here.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: If we explore stories where we are pitted against the most horrible and terrifying things that our minds can conjure, and we can imagine that even in the face of these terrible circumstances, that we can rise up and shake our fists as we stare into the abyss, then that must validate our belief in the goodness that exists within us and the courage that is required to stand up to adversity.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in turn, the adversities that we experience in everyday life.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: In that way, it helps us process the atrocities that we see all around us, the inexplicable ravages of disease, natural disasters, war, crimes against each other, violence, rape, murder, and so much more.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of my cinematic hot takes, though not necessarily an original thought, is that The Exorcist is ultimately an uplifting film because it tells the tale of a group of people rallying around and in some cases making the ultimate sacrifice to extricate the epitome of evil from the body and soul of the paragon of innocence, a young girl.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: They win in the end, and the girl is saved.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the depths that they have to traverse to get there only reinforces how great the victory is.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: For me, scary stories are both comforting and fascinating.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my favorite childhood memories of sitting in dark, cool theaters like Globe and Presidente, looking through splayed fingers at Cenobites, xenomorphs, guys named Freddie and Jason.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would just be sitting there next to my older brother, and I would try to act tough and not look away, even as what I was seeing on screen was melting my brain.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was the same thing at my grandmother's house in Enterprise or my cousins Jimmy and Felicia's house in Edinburgh Gardens, both of which had VCRs when we didn't have one at home.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those are still core memories for me.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Watching stuff like Return of the Living Dead or The Gates of Hell, you know, there's something really special about watching scary movies together.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this as somebody who prefers watching movies alone.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: But that collective experience of facing the darkness together makes it more palatable and even more fun.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So by the time my brother came to me with Terror of the Midnight Robber, a horror comic book project focusing on traditional folklore characters from Trinidad and Tobago, we both had a lifetime's worth of external horror influences that we could mix into these books.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Each of the four characters that I'm about to talk about appears in Terror of the Midnight Robber.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we have, of course, taken some creative liberties to adapt them to an action horror series, which in my opinion is what storytellers should do.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: As each generation adapts these characters, it makes sense for them to be passed through the lens of their own experiences and the things that they think that are cool.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we grew up reading, you know, I read X-Men Comics, my brother read Captain America and Punisher, I liked Spider-Man, my brother would read Daredevil and stuff like that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So all of that got mixed in with the Trinidadian folklore that we grew up with.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when we think about Trinidadian folklore stories, many of them were simply used as moral guides or cautionary tales, useful as a way to keep ourselves in check, to allow men and women to make good decisions and also to keep kids safe by basically scaring the hell out of them.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the first character that we're going to talk about is Lajables.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: The Lajables is a beautiful, sensual woman who walks the street at night.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: She's not a prostitute, but she is a siren.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: For men, she is irresistible with the shape of her curvaceous, voluptuous body visible on top, but her lower half is covered by a long ankle-length skirt or dress.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: These women are enticing to lonely men walking alone at night, maybe under the influence of alcohol and drugs.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when they see her, she uses her physical beauty and beguiling mannerisms to make the man follow her into even more deserted areas or maybe into rows of sugarcane under the cover of only moonlight.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: It is only when the men are isolated do they discover that under that dress is a cloven hoof.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Many of these men are never seen again, and the ones who make it back wouldn't dare venture into the darkness alone ever again.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on its surface, this is a simple cautionary tale of men making bad choices, perhaps leaving their wives or girlfriends at home to go out into the night to drink and party with their friends.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the larger bless serves as a proxy for temptations of all kinds and the ruination that can occur when these men give in to these temptations.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, this creature being a woman reflects the patriarchal nature of society at the time.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And quite frankly, the femme fatale is still one of the most revisited stories in film, television, novels, and so on all over the world.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I always say, if you want to understand the psyche of a culture or society, look at the way they construct their scary stories.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: To be fair though, the Lager Bless is a vengeful spirit because she was wronged by men at some point.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So in that way, she embodies the rage of women scorned.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, while the Lager Bless feels fairly unique to Trinidad in its construction, the Laga Hoo is part of the shape-shifting mythology that is pervasive in the Americas and Europe.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: The Lagahoo or Liga Who is the Caribbean cousin to the American Lou Garoo, which all have French origins.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the Lou Garou is most often associated with Louisiana, the US state with the most French influence.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you want to learn more about that French influence in Louisiana culture and how it mirrors the Caribbean, I recommend that you go back and listen to episode 14 of this podcast that we did on the African diaspora.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the Lukarou is essentially a werewolf.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in Trinidad, we take it a step further and we make it way more insane.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the Trinidadian Lager who is typically a tall old man, sometimes headless, that carries around a coffin with chains dragging behind it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: He can also change into a wolf, but his human form is arguably more terrifying, particularly since you can hear him coming before you see him, with the chains clanking and dragging across the ground.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Both versions have deep religious undertones.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: The lugaroo is generally someone who strayed from the church and because of that was cursed to be a shapeshifting monster.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, in Trinidad and Tobago, the Lager who is said to be someone who either sinned deeply or defied the church's laws, and that was why they were cursed.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, werewolf mythology is prominent throughout the world and in America and Europe, werewolves have taken on a much more modern twist in literature and films and television, with their affliction tied to the lunar cycle, and so they are cursed to transform under the full moon.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the modern werewolf is typically infected via a bite or a slash and can be freed in death by a silver bullet through the heart.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as far as I remember, for us there was no talk of silver bullets in Trinidad.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the road to redemption for a lager who typically lies in repentance.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: This one, like the Lager Bless, is pretty straightforward in its moral guidance, though less sexist.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Stay within the teachings of the church and you have nothing to worry about.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Stray from the church's rule, and you may become cursed to walk the land as a shape-shifting demon and a harbinger of death.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I like the idea of the coffin, and I think coffins and the chain represent what lies beyond the grave for souls that are not saved.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Also, many cultures all over the world have a vampire mythology.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's the Scottish uh Boban Sith, the Romanian Strigoi, the Malay, Penangalan, and many more, including teenage vampires that glitter in the sun from the American Northwest.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my favorite stories have vampirism as the central theme: Midnight Mass, Let the Right One In, First, and Near Dark are great stories from all around the world that use vampirism to explore themes such as religious exploitation, loneliness, love, greed, and so much more.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is worth noting that the idea of the sexy vampire and vampirism being an allegory for sexual repression and release only began to take shape in Bram Stoker's iconic novel, Dracula.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea of the sensual vampire or the sensual Dracula is often credited to Bella Lugosi's turn.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: In the 1931 film of that same title.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Trinidadian vampire or the Sukuya is much more demonic in nature.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: She is an old crone who by day lives on the fringes of the village or society in general.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And by night, she sheds her skin and travels through the air as a fireball.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now imagine you lived in a time where streetlights weren't as prominent as they are today or electricity in general.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you had to walk home on a dark path in your village or town.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: The imagining of seeing a fireball coming at you would be absolutely terrifying.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it would probably hasten your steps on the way home and keep you from drieveing on your journey.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: The Sukunya, like other vampires, is a blood drinker.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But when I was young, I was told that she drank blood from your big toe.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And as crazy as that sounds, there are other vampires around the world that do that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: The Sukunya is by no means a sexy vampire, although when we adapted her for the Terror of the Midnight Robber series, we made her human form more enticing.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, I actually had a classmate who, when I was 11 years old, he was from a more rural community.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he came to school one day and told us that his father had killed a sukmiya by finding and putting pepper sauce or hot sauce in her skin while she was away.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can also do this with salt, just by the way, if you ever run into a sukmiya.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he was convinced that his father actually did this.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter what we said, we could not convince him otherwise.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the true power of folklore in a place like Trinidad and Tobago.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, and these are my favorites because they are hands down the most terrifying creatures in Trinidadian folklore, in my opinion.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Their nature has always shook me to my core because, again, we are dealing with the ultimate perversion of innocence.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: A duen is a baby that died before it was baptized, and in doing so becomes a vengeful spirit that lures children to their death.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Physically, a duen is known for having feet that are twisted all the way around to face backward.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And many of them wear straw hats.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: They call to their victims by whooping, which to a child may not seem too threatening, and perhaps it would sound like another kid calling to them from some distance away.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Dwen typically look near rivers, luring children to the edge of the water where they grab and steal them away.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is because they are mischievous, jealous, and vengeful spirits, stealing away the children they were not allowed to grow into because they died.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, looking at this from a sociological perspective, tales of Dwen were used to scare unattended children away from one of the most dangerous places at the time, and still today actually, near the edge of any body of deep water that they could fall into and drown in or be swept away.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: These were some of my favorite characters to write.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for the comic, we jettisoned the hats and we made the Duen's malevolent cave dwellers barely kept in check by their caretaker Mammy, who is an amalgam of some of the maternal folklore characters from the Caribbean.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, our version, like the traditional Duen, are ghastly to look at and as mean-spirited as ever.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Our Duen were not water dwellers either.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: They lay as a cave deep in the forests of the northern range.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're ever hiking over to Maracas, maybe spare an occasional glance into the brush or listen for their call.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, since they're just made-up characters, I'm sure you won't actually see or hear anything.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, you might.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: As our nation became more developed, concerned with the trappings of modern materialism, many of these creatures have gone from prominence in the zeitgeist to background folklore characters, mentioned every now and again, but without any of the immediacy or menace of the heyday.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Many kids today don't know about them as screens have replaced village storytellers.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: But there has been a resurgence of these characters in recent times, particularly through films, novels, and of course comic series.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's our duty as elders to help these stories to persist and to help them evolve over time to more seamlessly fit into the cultural and social climate of modern society.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the goals of this podcast is to do just that, to take oral traditions and put them in a digital space to hopefully spark curiosity and help outsiders understand our culture better.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: But also as a way to spark that curiosity in the next generation of Trinidadian and Tobegonian storytellers.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned earlier, there are many, many more amazing folklore characters that live on the dark fringes of our culture.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Characters like jumbies, phantoms, papa bois, Mamadlow, to name a few.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: For me, a kid that always sat at the intersection of my indigenous roots and popular culture from all over the world, these characters were always as cool and as scary as anything from a Stephen King novel or a John Carpenter film.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: The real world is a scary place.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: But scary stories and dark characters can help us navigate it.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they serve as platforms for introspection and social commentary, cautionary tales, or good old-fashioned escapism.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: These stories stick with us, popping back up at unexpected times when when dark rooms are traversing long lonely roads.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And long may they live.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Before I go, I'd like to give a shout out to Chris Riley, creator of Terror of the Midnight Robber.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to learn more about this project, I'll put the link to the website in the show notes.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And Chris can often be found signing books and talking to fans at local Trinidadian comic conventions.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, to our listeners, thank you for tuning in.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And as we just say in Trinidad, we could talk later.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Our contributing producers are David McMillan and Lauren Leon McMillan.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Music was provided by Peter Stanley of Home Base Productions, and I am your host, Wendell Riley.