Latest / A Level Playing Field / Fiona McIntyre: Setting the record straight on SWPL 'financial crisis' I A Level Playing Field I Episode 14

Transcript

Fiona McIntyre: Setting the record straight on SWPL 'financial crisis' I A Level Playing Field I Episode 14 · A Level Playing Field

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to a level playing field, sponsored by Nutmeg Magazine, the Scottish Football Quarterly.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: If you're looking for your next great football read, the World Cup special issue of Nutmeg Magazine is available to purchase now.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: You can order your copy at nutmegmagazine.co.uk to enjoy stories from Scotland's adventures on the greatest stage.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Cheryl Smith joined as ever by Alison McConnell.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Alison, we are back at Hamden.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think at this point you and I may have a season ticket for here for her so often.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, it never gets tired going up to the National Stadium.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, and it's a nice uh GAF, is that what the kids say?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you mention gaff, it must have alcohol in it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right, okay.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sadly, sadly it does not, and we're on TikTok.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: So if if that is not the right term, then I'm sure that they will correct us.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we are back at the National Stadium.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: We're joined today by SWPL managing director Fiona McIntyre.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Fiona, genuinely delighted that you're on, and thanks for joining us because we know this is about to be just a manic part of your season with us this league that we're all so entrenched in.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: But um, thank you for thank you for taking the time out to come and speak to us.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's all.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy speaking to you, and I've definitely got a season ticket for him.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think we what we want to start with, we've got loads to get through, so we're just going to jump in because we want to use the time as much as we can to chat to you.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what I wanted to start with is maybe just something that can give people a wee peek behind the curtains.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: You've been in this job since 2022.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: What does the the day in the life look like for the managing director of the SWPL?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine there's not one day that's similar to the next, but what what is the kind of things that you do in that role day to day?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're right, every day is different, it depends on the point in the season.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at the moment, we're coming into the business end of the season, so there's a lot of what we're doing, and I'm sort of managing the team looking operationally ahead to the cup final.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So this week we've obviously got our um press event ahead of the cup final, we've got the press the cup final at the weekend, so a lot of what we're getting towards is operational and planning and working with the clubs, but I've now built the team out a little bit, so the team sort of won't deal with a lot of that, which allows me to lift my head.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So my week tends to be sometimes a little bit more meetings.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this week I've got the Scottish FA's professional game board, um, I've got an SPFL trust board meeting, as you'll know, now involve the European Leagues and World Leagues, so sometimes there's a little bit of travelling and having meetings with the European Leagues and World Leagues, so it genuinely depends on the week.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say as we get into sort of March to May, it tends to be a lot more domestic.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you're starting to look at when can trophies be won.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're planning logistically for trophy lifts and work on the clubs, there's broadcast selections going on, so it's a lot of stakeholder management, a lot of moving parts that you're trying to join together to make sure that the end of the season is as exciting as it can be, but operationally it runs as smoothly as it can as well.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're going to ask you about helicopters now we've got.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: But um in that time that you've been in this job, then what would you say when you look back in those roughly four years, what's the biggest challenge you think that you've faced that would would come to mind and ask you that question?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: The biggest challenge, it it's probably also our biggest strength and it's the diversity of the clubs.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got 20 clubs across the Premier League one and Premier League Two, really variable in terms of their size, their resource, their ambition.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some players, some clubs that are full-time professional, some that are fully amateur, some that are in a sort of hybrid position at the moment and moving towards professionalism.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So probably the biggest challenge for me is trying to make sure that the league always moves forward and that we're always pushing boundaries, but at the same time being really cognizant of the different resources that the clubs have and trying to take everybody with us.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably day-to-day one of the biggest challenges that we have.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: In terms of that, actually, we saw a report just a few weeks ago about the financial challenges that that the league faces.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Could you like shed any light on that?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, where like what's the direction of travel here for the league?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: The league's in a really strong position.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: When we took over back in 2020 to it's a bit of a stand-in start.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: We had to build the brand and build the league.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Last year we announced record results financially, so we turned over over a million pounds for the first time in our history.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: The distributions to the clubs have gone up seven or eightfold in that period of time, so there's been massive improvement on the sort of financial position of the league, and that's largely down to the commercial and broadcast partnerships we have.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge that we have is the pace of change is difficult to keep up with at times.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the clubs are professionalising and the cost to run a women's team is significant.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So while we're doing a lot at the centre to deliver better resource and better distributions, at the same time, the difference between what we're distributing and what it costs to run a professional full-time women's team is still significant.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the challenge we have is trying to close that gap.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's probably a number of ways that we'll do that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: On one hand, we'll look to continue to grow our resource commercially and be able to distribute more to clubs, but we're also trying to influence other things so we know that audiences that we need to get more fans and grounds.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we support clubs and do that centrally and support clubs to grow the number of people going through the gate every week?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Player trading hasn't really kicked in on the women's game yet, it's it's about to.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can see there's more and more transfer fees now.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, compensation will come in for FIFA hopefully very soon.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a number of levers we've yet to pull where clubs will realise more value in terms of what they can generate from their own income.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, how we support that alongside on the commercial basis, what we are trying to do to make sure that we remain in a positive place.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing, player transfer, it player transfer trading is huge for the women's game because when you complete obviously there are commercial entities that are massive when it comes to injecting finances into teams and into the game itself, but when you look at the the men's game, player the player trading model is fundamental to how money is is recycled within the game.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when you think of the the billions of pounds uh within a season globally that's invested in player trading, you just the women's game has still got to really obviously ignite that yet, and you and I think maybe the challenge for a lot of Scottish clubs is even young players coming through and then heading to go down south and you're not getting any compensation at all for players.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that is the single biggest challenge in terms of player trading.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're beginning to see the market kicking off a little bit, particularly down south, and that's a double-edged sword to some degree, because on one hand you've probably got the richest football in nation on your doorstep, you potentially have the money to pay, the transfer fees, but on the other hand, given the UK is one nation, there's an ability for the players to move quite early, which from our club's perspective, when they're trying to develop talent, obviously isn't positive.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what we are trying to do is to influence, certainly at international level, when that compensation model comes in, that the Scottish clubs are ranked in a particular way, where that we will realise the maximum that they can from their investment into these young players.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: What I would say is it tells us that our clubs are doing a lot right, that a lot of clubs are now looking to Scotland for talent because we are producing talent, and that's part of our responsibility to try and help the clubs make sure that the league's in the best position that they'll get a reward for when they invest into developing young players.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think we'll see the transfer fees continuing to go up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely directional travel in the women's game.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a little bit of patience here.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's almost a start-up environment we're in where you're beginning to see the seedlings of those things and it's staying the course until you actually these things come to fruition.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: Was it fair to say it's a financial crisis in the league when you look at the figures that you've just said in the growth that there has been tremendous growth obviously across maybe the last two or three seasons?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's a financial crisis.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think we are an important point in women's football.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have got to a point where the league is turning over significant sums and we're distributing significant sums.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what we're we're honest and we have to acknowledge is the gap between what we distribute and what's needed.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's still a gap there.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what I look at is how do we address that, how do we support the clubs?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I wouldn't describe it as a financial crisis.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: See what you're talking about there, the these transfers and players are able to move quite early, and obviously because of the money that it's an offer down south, it's that's a bit of difficulty across the board in Scotland because you want the league here to be attractive, obviously, to improve the league, but then there's just so much more on offer for for players um for players elsewhere.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just ask you what's the things that are that are unseen in this job that people don't see that you have to deal with or that that go on behind the scenes?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just because people see you at games and in the role that they're in, and people know what your job is, but what are the sort of things that happen in the background that people might not know about?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably a lot of stakeholder management.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've got a lot of partners obviously.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so day to day you're trying to get the best outcome for the league, which involves the best outcome for clubs, the best outcome for broadcasters and partners.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So some of the things you don't see is we'll put out our broadcast selections, and that looks really simple.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like the broadcasters just come, give us four games and we've announced them.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, our clubs don't own their venues, and sometimes we're shifting kickoffs or we're trying to move games to avoid clashing with other games to give our game the best profile and opportunity to be seen.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of phone calls that go on behind the scenes to check that clubs can accommodate, and I have to say they've been absolutely brilliant and understanding, and they always try to find a way to find a solution.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes there's creative solutions within that, and you see games shifting slightly differently because we want to encourage fans along, so we want to keep the kickoff times fan-friendly, but at the same time, we want the games to be visible and in a TV slot where we can grow the television audience as well, and then we need to be cognisant of the fact that we've got clubs who don't own their venues, and for some clubs they've maybe got part-time or amateur players, and if we're asking them to travel on a midweek, there's different considerations.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, probably that giant game of Jenga, as I call it, is a bit that people don't always see.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: You just see the output at the end of the week when we announce something like uh broadcast fixtures.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: I can imagine that must be quite challenging too when you give consideration to maybe big wise televised games and the men's game, and you're thinking you maybe don't want a clash because you want your game to attract an audience.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, if you know that there's a Celtic Rangers game on in a Sunday afternoon and you've got a fairly high profile game in the SWPL, it's almost about trying to avoid similar kickoff times because then you're detracting from your own audience, it may tap into it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, and it's not always possible.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: We we try, but well, obviously at the moment, for example, with the SPFL tops top six, bottom six isn't confirmed.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So their fixtures aren't out, so but ours are out, so at that point you're at the mercy of line comes out.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I I guess a good example is the cup final.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: We knew there would be a Scotland game this weekend, so we held off to find out when that was.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Known it was then a Saturday, early evening kickoff.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: We they decided we'd avoid the Saturday altogether because I think the audience that comes to a Scotland game is potentially similar to our audience for our Sky Sports Cup final, which is why we opted for the Sunday, which gives people a weekly a weekend of football if they want to do that.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if we'd schedule on the Saturday, you maybe are giving people a difficult choice.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point in time, with the Scotland men's team doing so well and heading to the World Cup, why would we pitch ourselves up against a men's Scotland game in Glasgow at the same time?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always things like that that we're considering, and as I say, it's we do our best, and it's not always possible when you do see a clash, it's not the lack of thought that's gone into it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's the logistics and operations just mean we have got responsibility to get the games played as well, and with the weather over winter, sometimes it the priority is just to get the games done before particularly before we get to the the split.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: This is a c this is a question that's been asked a couple of times at various points.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: But would there ever be a consideration for summer football for a summer calendar for the women's game?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't been discussed recently.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've obviously had that in the past.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's potential upsides to that that you could see where you get a little bit of time in the calendar where there's less or no other football.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: But with the increasing number of international tournaments, you're potentially then competing in the summer with international tournaments, and then probably the the argument against it is that we might be putting our clubs at a detriment when it comes to European competition because you're then playing out with the the calendar of Europe and particularly now with the Europa Cup where we're expecting some of our clubs to go in and be competitive if we misalign ourselves with that, and then the other thing now is that the increasing FIFA calendar, it actually leaves you with more limited scope than you think to make adaptations to the calendar as it is.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we've always shown we're open-minded.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a competitions working group which includes our clubs on it, and they will tell us when they're looking for change or there's things that they think we could improve upon.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And over the years we have made tweaks to the format and different things, but the summer calendar isn't one that's been on the agenda for some time.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just skip back to something that you mentioned earlier about trying to get fans through the gates and into stadiums.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because I suppose that's the most visual thing that everyone sees when you're at games or it's on TV.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: How does the how does the league actually go about helping the clubs with that?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the clubs what are the clubs doing or do they need to do more?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's so difficult obviously.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we rectify this to get more people into the grounds?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: It it's a big challenge, and what I would say is it's a challenge I see across Europe and the world.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what we've seen is much uh greater engagement online, so in terms of social channels and engagement, what we've seen is a huge increase in viewing figures on television.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So last year we had 2.4 million people watched the SWPL.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we're seeing that online engagement and people watching, and the general awareness of the SWPL has grown.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the next step is quite a significant one because you're asking people to change their weekend behaviours.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite a big undertaking to take three or four hours out of your weekend to go and watch an SWPL fixture.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the conversion we're trying to get is these people that have engaged, they've shown an interest, they're watching regularly, they understand the game.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do we get them along to fixtures?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done a couple of things, we've done some research with the University of Edinburgh to understand who our fan base is, what they're looking for, and interestingly, from that we find that they are a pretty socially conscious audience.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are more females and more families that go along to the women's game, and one of the most interesting things we learned was that the match-day experience is the most important thing to them, alongside that feeling of community, and on that list of things they could tick was the result, and that wasn't the most important thing.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, knowing that we can then look at how we promote the games and how we create an environment that encourages them along.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, the first thing we've done is we've worked with a fan experience company, and they went out and did uh sort of blind audits, a secret shopper, if you like, around all the clubs last year and gave all the clubs an individual report on their experience from trying to purchase a ticket right through to the match day and then the follow-up that came.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that gave the clubs some individual feedback on the things that they could do to help improve that matchday experience.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: What we're now doing through our commercial working group is looking centrally as a league to say what out of that information and feedback can we use where perhaps we as a league could invest and help clubs put on a matchday experience, being understanding of the limitations on costs and how much these things could cost.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But what are the low-cost things that we can do that make the women's game an attractive place to come along to, and the league will take a role centrally at trying to almost set a minimum standard for clubs where you can expect if you go to an SWPL game at a minimum, this is what you can expect on a match day.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'd imagine too, it does help though.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're saying there that maybe the outcome and the score is it was lower down the the list of priorities, but I imagine it will help the profile of the league when you're going to have another tense finale, as it is all pointing to just now when you see the results from the weekend and you look at how could how uh tight it is going to be again at the top, and everything is pointing to possibly another final day title decider.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: All that helps because, in terms of uh just keeping the profile and keeping the interest around the league, it becomes fairly intriguing, it becomes a talking point in terms of media coverage that there's genuine tension within it.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: I would imagine that that helps to encourage people to come along because all of a sudden there's a there's something really topical and interesting around it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said for a long time that that's or it was our biggest USP.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: The men's game is trying to outdo us this year with their own uh premiership.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: But from our perspective, our league's always had that real competitive right right toward the end, and this year it's shaping up the same.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think what makes it so special is it's not just two teams, you're sort of into four and five teams, and even looking at this so they'll compete.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they maybe won't think they'll win the league, they'll give every team a really difficult game.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: So winner we see three goals at the weekend, which was very like totally changed the the what the table looked like.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's magic for us, that's what we want.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: We want our game to be one that you look at the fixtures and go, genuinely don't know how that will go.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you look at the table and say, Oh, get into the last few weeks, you could be in any scenario, and that does get people talking.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that first year of when we went into the final day with the three teams potentially been able to win the league, it really did get people talking about the SWPL and it's sort of new guys for the first time.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that sort of raised the bar of expectation on what the SWPL is.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's slightly anecdotal, but you just get a sense now that more and more people are aware of the SWPL.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I look at the coverage we get, you know, we're on Sky Sports, we're on the score section of BBC News, um, BBC will come and cover the radio rights at the cup final.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely an increase in visibility, awareness from the media, and just be because the media are covering it more in the mainstream.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, I think the population, they might not know every detail, but they're certainly aware.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I go to games, even if it's men's games here, people have got an awareness now which they didn't have before, which is a massive step forward.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think it I think it's really interesting.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking about this to someone last week actually.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, someone had asked me, Did you would you ever see a situation where a woman's story, women's football story makes a backpage of one of the tabloids?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Well that's actually already happened.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I've had a couple of stories that I've made back page stories in that season in particular, when three teams could win the league, was one of them.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I always remember an older journalist saying to me, I never ever thought I would see the day when we had when we carried a backpage woman's story or uh you know in our in our title, and that does feel quite groundbreaking because you're bringing it to a very specific audience, you're not you are breaking down cultural barriers by introducing it to people, and I think that's been the big challenge within the women's game, is almost of everyone knows who Cal McGregor is, everyone knows the story in the background.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in the women's game, you're having to introduce people to an audience, you're having to say here they are, and this is this is a story.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: And similarly, Caitlin Hayes made the backpage to when when Rangers were interested in signing Caitlin Hayes when she was still at Celtic.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: That became a backpage story, which just would have been unimaginable at at points previously.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to think it's going in that there are aspects that are going in the right direction.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But without doubt, and everything you've described there, some of these moments are quite groundbreaking.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, you almost don't realise it until you're having that conversation and reflecting, and you realise actually some of the progress we've made has been really significant, and that's what you want to be doing.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: You you want to be breaking down barriers that people thought would just always be there because socially and culturally men's football has dominated.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what I also think is that we're still at the early stages, there's a whole generational change to come from the young people that have grown up with women's football in the mainstream.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: That generation will become adults, and you hope their children will also grow up with women's football in the mainstream, and that that takes a little bit of time, that's generational change.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: But once you get to that point as well, you've 100% normalised women's football as part of the narrative, part of the discussion, and you want it to be part of the fabric of Scottish society in the same way as men's football.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have the the history in terms of the public history, so everyone's less aware of that history, but you're grown the history of women's football, that's part of our role, so that in 20 and 40 years' time, actually there's a full generation of people in Scotland that have just grown up knowing women's football in the mainstream, and that's pretty exciting to be a part of.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and as it is as well, some of the history of Scottish women's football is actually fantastic.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when you go back to the 70s and you look at the stories, I know everyone talks about Rose Riley and and going out to Italy, and she's such a character that that you know that the stories are always well received, but there are so many other people who were fundamental, and these stories about breaking down barriers, and I'm thinking about Elsie Cookie and and what these women done to to set really the foundations of what the modern game is in Scotland is fantastic, and it it is almost about trying to to tap into that and say, look at look at what these women done.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like look at how look at how they came in and and and basically took it to a really stuffy SFA and and and said, We demand the right to play.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: These stories are to be celebrated.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Without doubt, and one of my other roles of one of my other hats, I sit on the Scottish Football Museum board as a trustee, and a big part of my role there is I'm co chairing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: The Hall of Fame, and fundamentally, what I see my responsibility as is to try and increase the number of women that are in that Hall of Fame.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Not for the sake of it, not just to level out the numbers, but to your point, because the stories need to be told.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many women that have contributed to women's football in Scotland that haven't had their moment.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're all really lucky.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're sitting here at a point that women's football's never been had a higher profile and never been more public and celebrated.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we're really lucky that our point in our careers we're here right now, but there's women that have gone before us that were never celebrated.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: That we need to make sure that we shine a light on them, and that's again part of why I took on that role at the museum, was because the Hall of Fame is something that I think is an opportunity to tell those stories and really shine a light on people that have made massive contributions to women's football.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: We're on the same page on that one.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: The mainstream media thing is really interesting, it's really important because that's that's reaching one side of an audience, but like you'd kind of touched on, there's a whole other side, a younger generation, which is why we are on TikTok.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: And but those those people that you're trying to reach can be reached through things like well, things like podcasts and like fan media and all those types of things.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that uh how important do you think it is then that the league and the clubs like really embrace that because that's a way to reach people that you're not going to reach them through the the back page of the Daily Record or the C you know or the Sun or things like that?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: We've done a few things in that space.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um with one of the guys out doing a Vox pop on Buchanan Street recently asking people if they knew what was happening on the 29th of March around the cup viral, um with some influencers doing some content for us, so you do need to look at how to do things differently and how to reach our audience.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I also see that as a mum of two young girls who are online and they come and tell me things that they've learned through playing games online because more and more companies never realise, and particularly social media and online, that's the way that you connect with young people, and to some degree that might be the only way they consume women's football, is it's only through TikTok.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to convert them and get them along to games, that's the next step, but actually just growing that engagement with the younger generation and doing it in a way that works for them because with the best will in the world, they aren't reading the newspapers these days, they are a hundred percent gaining any information, any trends, anything they're interested in comes and starts from an online base.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's interesting too that the the influence is just uh th the demographic of women's hook is so different to men's, like what you're appealing to is a really different uh a really different aspect to the population.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think any research that's been done into attendances at women's games and I'm thinking about Arsenal gear when who obviously are probably held up all the time as the the the club to follow as a the landmark club for what they have achieved in women's football and in terms of the audience that they they can now attract, but it showed there was a really specific, different demographic from those who go and watch the men's Arsenal team and those who go and watch the the women's team, and I suppose.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: I I I feel that like even going out to grounds, it's a it's you don't have a huge amount of crossover between those who go and watch, like for example, Celtic and Rangers men's team and then go along to watch the the women's team.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's been a learning that we've all had in the last four or five years.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Clubs that have put games in their main stadium ourselves through our researchers, we've learned that you will get some fans that will watch the men's team and they'll come along, but maybe to a showcase event, probably not regularly.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: The fans that are coming regularly to watch SWPL clubs are fans of the SWPL clubs or just fans of women's football and just fans of the league or some of the individual players as well define more of the yeah.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a landscape shift across football, but particularly pertinent in the women's game where a lot of the women's players now have their own profile and presence online, and you'll find that a lot of people are following that individual, so whatever club they go to, that's where those fans will go.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's also just a different match-day experience.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: We you know we've had Ranger Celtic games with no segregation, and fans just sit together and watch the game, and there's a bit of fun, and that's it at the end of the game.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a different environment and culture, and I think what Arsenal did really well is they tapped into the communities that maybe didn't feel as connected to their men's team for whatever reason.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: They made sure their women's team was a space for everyone in the communities that perhaps hadn't always felt an affinity to the men's team.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're beginning collectively in Scotland to understand that it is a different demographical fan, and therefore the matchday experience and how we speak to them and how we promote the fixtures is slightly different to how you would do it in the men's game.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the kind of enjoyment of being part of something that's grown, is that you're not just lifting and laying and copying and pasting the way things have always done.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: You you have to react to the information and the research that's comes before you, and this is probably one of the big learnings we've had in the last three or four years is it's a different demographic fan, and we need to speak and treat them uh differently and in a way that encourages them to come along.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: What's been the biggest challenge do you think what's been your toughest moments in this job?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Erm they've all been enjoyable.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think I said at the start the biggest challenges have been just managing the different number of clubs we've got and the different place that they're at economically and in terms of resource.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've always had some key moments over the season, sometimes even just that last day of the season, not knowing where the league titles go.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: The upside to that is it's super exciting.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're trying to plan for trophy lifts and flames and confetti at three different venues and make sure that the one trophy is getting to the one venue that's maybe 20 miles away, those sort of things are challenges, but they've all been fun challenges and things that I've really enjoyed being part of, and I think that's why working on them as football is so exciting because you you don't really know what's coming next.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is evolving and growing, and it's definitely not something that I would describe as static and repetitive.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: How far in advance do you book that taxi?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because the last time I booked a taxi, the k the woman on the phone said that he was just round the corner before I'd even got off the call and then he never appeared.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just imagining you look ubering on the day they came.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, we definitely we definitely book well in advance.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: We get a company that sits with us and they'll get the car.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, the last couple of years we've actually Scottish Powers uh branded taxi, so they've taken us around Glasgow with a trophy, and all these things just add a little bit of fun and profile to the whole thing.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: How did you find that actually?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like being not live on uh Sky Sports with with the trophy, and you know, you're like reacting to what's going on at grounds.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can imagine that would be quite nerve-wracking actually.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: The first year was probably the worst in terms of nerve because we'd never done it before, and that was the game we've got cursing under your breath when you're live on.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we were heading to Celtic Park from memory, and then Glasgow City scored really, really late at Ibrook.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the taxi sort of spun around.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think we were on the road somewhere from memory and we had to get over to Ibrooks.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember so I've got the trophy, which is pretty well relative to me, it's pretty big.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I all I was thinking stepping out of that taxi was don't fall, just don't fall, because it's like we step down right at the front of Ibrooks, the Sky Sports camera's on you the first year with a trophy, so those thoughts do kind of run through your head, but it's such a buzz and excitement, like the opportunity to be part of that's unbelievable.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: So if we had you back on here on say 12 months time from now, what would what would something that has changed or has happened that you would say that look back in that that year and it's been a success?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't need to be something huge, but just something.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we've spoken about in terms of growing crowds, if we can get more regular, larger crowds and we can get record crowds along to things like cup finals, and I'd also love to see the national team crowds growing as well.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's the biggest success I think we can deliver right now because one for the profile of the game and the experience of the players, it creates an entirely different atmosphere on a match day.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: But also economically, going back to what we spoke about for clubs, if they can grow their attendances and they've got an increase in regular attendance at their clubs, that would be quite game-changing.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a a real focus for the league is to try and support clubs and ourselves, grow audiences um week to week.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: How do you think you'd like to be remembered from this role when eventually your time comes and and you move on?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: How would you like to be remembered for for what you've done?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like a question for an old person, Alison.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: How would I like to be remembered?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: As somebody that positively impacted the game, as somebody that it had a role that genuinely made a difference and had a transformative effect on women's football from where it was from the day that I got involved to the day that I left that I'll leave it in a far better place, but also that when at the point you come to hand it over to the next person, that you've left them with a really strong platform to build upon and you know that it's only going to go on and achieve greater and better things.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Just before we finish, obviously we've got the cup final at Far Park Rangers in Glasgow City.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to people who might be thinking or on the edge of thinking about coming along to it to get them to come to this game?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: What what are they going for?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're going for a brilliant day out, um, but two of the top teams in the country, I don't know where else you get the opportunity at that price to come and watch international players playing.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've just had a game between the two sides at the weekend, which finished with a very dramatic late winner for Rangers, so we know the game will be tight.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's two of the best footballing teams in the country, great stadium and atmosphere at Fur Park.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have a lot of family-friendly activities on, so you can come along early, and there's a family fun zone, there's an opportunity to meet players, get autographs, take part in activities and face painting, so it's a great day out, but also the football itself we're expecting a really competitive, exciting game, and it's live on television.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um particularly with the weather beginning to look a little bit more like spring in and around Glasgow and Motherwell, I would just encourage people to get along and take the opportunity to watch a brilliant game on their doorstep.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And two old friends in the dugout going head to head again.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: But that's just another dynamic that's I think again back to your point about the stories.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: For the first time, we're sort of getting to this point where there's some interesting dynamics and stories and former teammates coming up against each other, and that's what we want for women's football because I think that's what really engages the audience, and I know both of them will be I know both of the Leanne's well, and they'll both be looking like desperately to get that first silverware on Sunday.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: You love the phone on the dugout for that whole 90 minutes.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: You like a bit of that?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Alison loves that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Just in case you can catch any any content.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, listen, it's been great to speak to you today.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: We're delighted that you took the time out to speak to us, and hopefully the end of the season is like the last few of our way just get many.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately for you, or fortunately, you're even the back of a taxi and trying to go from the M74 to the M8.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it's been great to speak to you.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And just before we finish off, I just want to say thanks to everyone who's listened.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're episode 14 now, I think.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: So going strong.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Alison's Rolodex is doing us a good job getting all the big big names in, but no, um, it's been it's been really good.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: We've had lots of good engagement.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're also across social media, so if you want to follow us on Instagram, X and TikTok, you can get us there.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so thank you to Alison, thank you, Stefana, and thank you to you for listening.