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Josh Shapiro Is Calm but Not Cool · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I just finished an hour-long conversation with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: We covered a lot of ground. We talked about the
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: war in Iran. We talked about Israel, Netanyahu, anti-Semitism. We
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: talked about his relationship to the Biden administration, where he
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: had to push back what it was like bowing out
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: of the VP process. We did not talk about whether
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: or not he's going to run for president. And we
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: got into some tough questions about bagel orders. It was
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: a really interesting conversation that went a lot of different places.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: And I hope you appreciate it. Governor, welcome back to
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: the pod. It's good to see you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: So yesterday, we are taping this on Friday morning. There
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: was another attack on a Jewish community. This time, someone
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: drove their car into a synagogue in West Bloomfield, Michigan.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: You were attorney general when there was the attack on
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh. There was the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: arson attack on the governor's residence when you and your
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: family were home. What was your reaction to what happened yesterday?
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, just another sad and scary example of how
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: anti-Semitism is dangerous. It's on the rise. across this country.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: And I think what we need more of is for
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: leaders to speak and act with moral clarity, call it out,
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: and leave no space for it. You know, I was
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: in touch with my dear friend Gretchen Whitmer yesterday. I
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: thought she did an outstanding job speaking out against it
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: and making clear that this is not going to be
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: acceptable in our society anywhere. I think it is important
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: for us to address these crises. And by the way,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: thank God no one was killed. I but still incredibly dangerous.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I think it is important to not just address these
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: crises after they happen, after an attack, whether it's at
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: the Pennsylvania governor's residence, at the Tree of Life, or
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: anywhere else. But we have to address it when the
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: seedlings are planted of this kind of hate, of this
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: kind of anti-Semitism. There should be no place for it
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: in our society. And I think leaders have a responsibility
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: to call it out wherever they see it, on the
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: political left or the political right.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: So on that note, Obviously, temperatures are high. Just today,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Josh Gottheimer, he's a Democratic congressman whose district borders your state.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: He had harsh words.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: For Zohra Mamdani, Maine Senate candidate, Grant Plattner. He called
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: them socialist anti-Semites and basically said you're not against anti-Semitism
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: if you support them. I know you checked in with
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Mamdani after the attack that happened in New York. What
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: is your reaction to what Gottheimer said?
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: Look, it's hard for me to react to. I haven't
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: heard it. I don't know what the context was. I
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: don't want to get caught in responding. It's a tweet.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: There's no context.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: You have it all. Yeah. Look, I'll just tell you,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I reached out to Mayor Mamdani, I guess it was
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: probably three or four days ago at this point, after
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: that incident outside his residence. And I wanted to make clear, look,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: I I've been through it now. Thank God nothing detonated there.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Unlike in our situation in Pennsylvania, but I know that
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: this can, you know, affect your psyche, affect the way
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: you think about stuff. I want to make sure he
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: and his wife were, were okay. And, um, I think
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: we had a good conversation and appreciate that. I think
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: it is really important. I'm going to just make a
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: general statement on this. Um, I understand what you're getting
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: at here and I want to try and address your,
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: your point. I think it's really important that we have
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: two distinct conversations happen. One, which is the way you
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: started this, and that is about anti-Semitism. And there should
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: be no room for that. And by the way, it
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: shouldn't really be debatable. Like we should all stand universally
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: against it on the left and on the right. And
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: it shouldn't be hard to do that. I think it's
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: a pretty black and white issue with very little nuance.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: And then there's a second conversation. And that is about
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: policies in the Middle East, about the war in Iran,
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: about what's happening in Israel and Gaza and all that.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: I assume at some point you'll get into that in
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: our conversation. That's full of nuance. And there should be
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: space for disagreement that doesn't lead to charges of anti-Semitism.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I think if someone engages in anti-Semitism, we got to
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: call it out. If they're engaging in expressing their opinion
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: on an issue of the Middle East, we should leave
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: room for respectful and responsible debate.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So on the other side of this, you have Alabama
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Senator Tommy Tuberville retweeting a photo of Mamdani. opposite a
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: photo of the attack on the World Trade Center that
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: said the enemy is inside the gates. Another congressman this
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: week said Muslims don't belong in American society. We need
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: more Islamophobia, not less. I can't imagine any elected official
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: saying the same against Jewish people, other minorities, without facing
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: a ton of calls for resignation. What do you make
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: of the purchase that this kind of anti-Muslim bigotry has
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: in the Republican Party?
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think I didn't see the tweets again.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I apologize, but I get your point. And I actually
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: addressed this, I guess it would have been two nights
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: ago at an Iftar in the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: talking about the rise in both anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, and making
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: clear that we have to stand together and unite against
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: that and understand that our diversity makes us far stronger.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: I think that kind of language is on the political
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: right here, as you're describing it, is just simply unacceptable.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: And I think it's incumbent upon all of us to
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: speak out against it. It's one of the reasons why
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: I try and do everything in my power to call
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: it out wherever I see it, to reach out to Republicans,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: to reach out to Democrats, to reach out to people
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: who disagree, I might disagree with on an issue if
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: they're targeted, whether God forbid by violence or that type
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: of incendiary language. I don't think there's a place for it. Look,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I think A big reason for that is because of
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: what Donald Trump has done to our politics over the
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: last 10 years. You know, my wife, Laura, and I
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: were talking about this the other night, we have four children, 24,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: just about 21, uh, 17 and 15, their entire political
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: reference point or framework aside from their dad, right. Is
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. Now they happen to not agree with Donald Trump.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: It's a good thing, but, but the way they view
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: our politics, is through this prism of just nastiness and
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: cruelty and division. And that's something that we've got to
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: figure out how to fix in this country. Get back
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: to the guy you worked for, right? Which was about
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: hope and change and bringing people together. We got to
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: find our way back to that in this society.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: You're such a, I was thinking about this conversation and
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: there's like a natural carefulness that you have, like a
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: measured way you approach things.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Politics. I'm trying to give you a thoughtful answer.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not. And actually, it
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: seems to be what a lot of people want, that
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: the people are pretty sick of politicians that are just
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: saying the most fringe, attention-grabbing, clicky thing. But it is
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: rewarded in our politics right now. And you seem to
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: try to avoid being part of that. And I wonder
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: if you feel that pressure in either direction, either to
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: let loose a little bit more or to be a
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: kind of more sober-minded person, even if sometimes people claim
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: they want something a little bit more shoot from the hip.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would just respectfully push back on one thing
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: you said, the sort of notion of letting loose. I'm
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: being very open and candid with you. And that's sort
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: of what I think of is let loose. If you're
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: talking about just like yelling and screaming and banging the table,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: like that ain't me. And I realize that might get
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: me more likes on Twitter and that might get me
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: more followers on different social media platforms. That ain't who
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  Speaker 3: I am. And by the way, that ain't what the
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: people who elected me want. They want me to go
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: solve their problems. They want me to get shit done
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: for them. They want me to be able to deliver
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: results for them. And if you're just out in the
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: arena yelling and screaming every day, yeah, you'll get some
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: more followers on social media, but you're not going to
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: accomplish a damn thing. And so I think there's a
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: difference between being thoughtful and sober-minded and being willing to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: just sort of engage in the slash and burn politics.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: One might be, again, more likely to get you some
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: some likes, but at the end of the day, your
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: job is to deliver. And the way you deliver is
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: by trying to find ways to find common ground, work
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: with people, see that common thread of humanity that allows
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: us to have dialogue and figure stuff out.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: So, uh, I was reading your book, uh, and I,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I would like to do disclosure here, which is, uh,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: you worked on the book with my friend, Emily Jane Fox,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: and I want to be on the record that what
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I believe is interesting and good about the book comes
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: from my friend. And the parts that I am critical
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: of are the material and you provided and are your fault.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. Got it.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: All right. I'll make sure Emily hears that. Yeah.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: There's a fascinating part.
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  Speaker 3: Let the record reflect John smirked a little bit.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I did smirk a little bit. It's on video.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I want to talk about your evolution on the death
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  Speaker 2: penalty because I thought it was interesting. Can you just
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: give people a brief summary of how you, what led
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: you to go from being someone who was in favor
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: of the death penalty to someone who was against it?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And by the way, genuinely in favor of the
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  Speaker 3: death penalty and honestly held view throughout my career, including
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: two runs for attorney general, where I was the chief
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  Speaker 3: law enforcement officer of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And I
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: believed that the death penalty should be reserved for the
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: most heinous of cases. And it wasn't to score political
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: points or get votes. It's what I believed. And what
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: began to happen to me over many years kind of
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: all happened at roughly the same time, right? One, more
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: and more cases were coming across my desk as AG
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: that could have led me to pursuing capital punishment. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: each time I didn't, I sought a life sentence instead.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: I was dealing with the realities of tragedy striking in Pennsylvania,
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: where the Tree of Life, the deadliest act of antisemitism,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: occurred in Pittsburgh, claiming 11 lives. And I supported the
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: death penalty. in that case. It ended up being a
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: federal case, not a state one, so it wasn't my
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: active prosecution. But I heard from families, a small number
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: of them, who didn't want the death penalty there. And
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: then I had, as I was grappling with this, as
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: I was seeing the problems in our justice system, I
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: had a conversation with my then roughly 11-year-old son, Max.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: Out of nowhere, this was during COVID, we were kind
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: of in the house a lot and Out of nowhere,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Max says to me, hey, dad, we don't have a
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: death penalty in Pennsylvania, do we? And I said, well,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: we do. He goes, well, you're not for it, are you?
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: And I found myself saying to him what I had
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: said many times in the context of a campaign or
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: my work. Well, son, in the most heinous of cases,
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: you know, blah, blah, blah, and I'm going on and on.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: And I noticed that I wasn't looking at him in
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: the eye the way I am you right now when
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: I said it. If you can't make eye contact with
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: your kid, that should tell you something about what you're saying.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: And then my max looked at me and said, well,
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  Speaker 3: I don't understand why killing someone as a punishment for them,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: killing someone makes any sense. And man, I walked away
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: thinking I'm in the wrong place on this. Um, by
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: the way, I was probably in the right place on
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: a politically in terms of polling and all that kind
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: of stuff. But, um, later on, you know, I can't
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: remember exactly what the timeframe was, but you know, some
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: number of months or so later I announced my run
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: for governor. and said that I was against the death penalty.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: And within the first few weeks of my time as governor,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: the first execution warrant came across my desk. And literally, John,
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: if I were to sign it, someone would have been
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: put to death. And I made clear that I would
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: put a moratorium in place. I wouldn't sign any execution
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: warrants as long as I'm governor. And I didn't call
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: on the legislature to reform the system. I called on
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: the legislature to abolish the death penalty because I simply
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: believed The state should not be in the business of
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: killing people.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: So often there are these debates around hot button social issues.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And the question is, should Democrats moderate on this? And
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: others say, don't throw that group of people under the bus.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Others say we need to take the popular point of view.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: But clearly there's a relationship between being willing to go
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: to the voters of Pennsylvania, who I assume by majority
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: approve of the death penalty, and say, I'm not for this.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: That involves... politics around it, where you've built a level
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: of trust and credibility, where you feel like you have the,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: where you can go to the voters and say, I'm
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: not with you on this issue. Can you talk a
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: little bit about that, about how you felt like you
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: could confidently do this, take a position that you thought
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: might be a little politically risky in this situation?
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: First, I don't want to like overstate the politics in
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: the sense that I really didn't think about the political
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: calculus here. And it was just, to me, it was
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: a moral issue. And I think it speaks to the challenge. Um,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I would hope every politician considers, but I can just
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: speak for myself, which is, you know, you run on
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: a platform. I'm going to do a, B and C
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: that platform reflects your own views and values along with
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: what you pick up from listening to people along the
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: way that they need this for their community or that
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: for their community. And you try and just sort of
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: mash all that together into the work you do every day. Now,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: If someone says they want to do something but it
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: violates everything you believe in, you're not going to pursue it.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Those are kind of extreme examples. But everything is this
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: effort to be able to pull together what you hear
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: when you're listening, and I pride myself on being a
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: good listener, and what's in your heart, what's in your gut,
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: what's in your soul, and how to fashion all that
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: together in a platform. In this case, I did feel
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: that even though I was on the wrong side of
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: the polling, that I did owe it to the people
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: of Pennsylvania to explain my rationale because I was taking
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: a different position than what I had historically taken. And
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: I wanted them to understand how I evolved on this issue.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: I think it's important for politicians to be able to
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: change their mind, but I also think it's incumbent upon
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: us to explain our rationale for that. And that's what
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I did. And you know what? A lot of people
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: who disagree with me reached out and said, hey, man,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate how you explained that. I disagree with you,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: but I respect where you're coming from.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about this because there's this debate. There
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: was a law passed in Canada about end of life.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: There's been a few laws in the U.S. passed about
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: end of life and the rights people have, whether the
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: state should sanction medically assisted suicide in terminal cases. There's
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: a bill in Pennsylvania about this. Right now, several Democrats
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: have introduced it in the legislature about compassion in dying.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And it relates to the death penalty because if you
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: believe that there is a distinction between the power of
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: the state to end someone's life and the power of
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: the state to put someone in jail for the rest
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: of their lives. There's something intrinsic about life itself that
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: comes into play here, something deeper and moral. And I'm
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: wondering how you think about the state's role in end
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of life as someone who clearly grapples with these questions
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: as a Jewish person, as a leader.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I grapple with it as a governor.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know that my faith is sort of the
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: driver in this, but Look, putting aside what's written in
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: the specific bills and in the legislature, you know, I've
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: heard from a number of people. I've heard from a
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: handful of people on this issue who have, look, I
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: think really passionate perspectives on it. And seemingly every one
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: of them that I've heard from, it's grounded in some
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: life experience, right? A life experience that I have never,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: you know, thank God had to deal with. I tend
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: to be someone in general that trust people to make
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: decisions over their own bodies, whether it's a woman's right
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: to choose, whether it's a parent's right to be able
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: to vaccinate their kids, how they think is best for them.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And so I tend to be kind of libertarian on
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: that stuff and creating a space for individuals to be
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: able to make those decisions. Now, look, we're going to
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: allow that. There has to be some rules of the
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: road and some clear guidelines on how that would work.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And I'd be lying to you if I was sitting
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: here today telling you that I've got it all figured out.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: It's an issue that comes up with some, but it's
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: not an issue I think that's dominating our legislative process
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. But I feel like it's coming. It's coming
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: for the Democratic debate about how we think about this.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: And I ask, I do think it gets at something
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: about what we think about the value of life, because
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I believe in the right to abortion. People should have
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: control over their own destinies. But then when it's the state,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: when they're right, when, when, when the state allows for
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: something like this, you have to also worry about people feeling,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: if not coerced, like pressure, right. That, that we start
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: to say as a society that not the people's lives
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: at the end of their lives, aren't of the same value.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting that at all.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: And I know you're not, I'm just, I'm curious how
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: you think about that. Cause that, What I found in
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: reading the book is that there is, you are grappling
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: with moral questions. You are thinking about what the right
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: thing to do is. And, you know, you are somebody
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: that is potentially running for president. And this is an
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: issue to me where it kind of accesses in a
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: typical way some of these sort of deeper questions.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I'm, in general, first off, I'm running for reelection.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: And I know that. And I know that. I'm speaking, yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: I think it's incumbent upon leaders to, To really think
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: through these issues, not just based on what gets the
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: most likes on social media, but how they really impact
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: real people. How folks in the community who care about
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: a particular issue like this bring it up to you
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: and raise the issue. And to try and find compassion
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: in your heart for people that you might even disagree
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: with on foundational issues like this. And these are things
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: I try and work through every day. I think what's
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: incumbent upon me as a public official, which might be
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: different from you or others, is I've got a responsibility
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: to explain myself. The death penalty is an example of that,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: where I evolved on the issue. I explained myself. I
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: let people know where I was coming from and how
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: I reached that conclusion. And I think on these underlying questions,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: you've got a responsibility to do that.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So a lot of the attention was on Minnesota when
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Trump deployed the National Guard. It feels like ICE's operations
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania have fallen under the radar a little bit.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: What is the scene like on the ground? What have
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: you been doing in response to the way Trump has
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: been deploying ICE in Pennsylvania?
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, what we saw in Minnesota was unconstitutional.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: It was dangerous. It made the community less safe. And
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: it claimed the lives of two American citizens, Ms. Good
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: and Mr. Preddy. And there must be accountability for that.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: just because they got rid of Noem and put in,
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: what's his name, Holman, and now they're trying to put
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: in the other guy, Mullen, just because they're kind of
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: shuffling the deck chairs here doesn't make it that the
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: policies of this administration are just. Remember, the reason why
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: ICE did what it did in Minnesota was because Donald
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Trump commanded them to do that. The problem here is
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. The problem here is the manner in which
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: ICE is being funded and being directed by Donald Trump.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: So changing around who the bit players are in this
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: isn't going to solve the problem. Relative to Pennsylvania, the
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: crux of your question, I will tell you that, and
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: this is probably where I'll maybe hold back in sharing
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: with you a little bit. Hopefully you'll understand. We are
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: prepared to be able to address this both in the
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: court and in the communities. And we spent a lot
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: of time working with law enforcement at the local level,
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: working with some other federal partners who we do have
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: the ability to work with on this to ensure the
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: safety and wellbeing of the people of Pennsylvania. I would
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: say as the former chief law enforcement officer of Pennsylvania,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: the most important tool law enforcement has to keep communities
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: safe is trust, right? Not a badge, not a gun,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: not a radio, but it's trust. And it is really
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: hard to build trust in a community between community and
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: law enforcement. We pride ourselves on doing that hard work.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: We do not want the federal government coming in and
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: eroding that trust. And so we're going to continue to
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: do everything in our power to be prepared and to
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: be able to be prepared to take the steps necessary
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to stop the influx should Donald Trump try. And should
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: he bring them to Pennsylvania, be prepared to deal with
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: that in the communities.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I know you're fighting to block construction of two ICE
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: detention facilities. What's the status of that? What levers do
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: you have?
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: So look, the federal government bought these two massive warehouses.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Think like massive Amazon warehouses, that kind of thing. One
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: in Berks County, Pennsylvania, one in Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania. These
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: are huge, and they want to convert them to ICE
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: detention centers, house about 9,000 people there. They did this
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: without consulting with local officials, certainly without consulting with state officials.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: And by the way, pissed off not just me, but
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of Republicans elected officials in those communities
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: as well. I met with local leaders about, now it's
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: probably about a week or two ago at this point,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: and heard their concerns. Putting aside the fact that I
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: think this is unjust, there are also very practical reasons
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: why this won't work and why we're not going to
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: allow it. At one of the facilities, they're trying to
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: attach to a water system that serves 700 households in
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: that community. That water system, through no fault of her own,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: can barely keep up with the 700 households. You go
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: put 9,000 bodies on that water system, you will literally
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: use up all of the water in that water system
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: in less than 24 hours. That means the homeowner won't
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: be able to turn on their sink in the kitchen
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: to boil a pot of water. They won't be able
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: to flush the toilet or take a shower. We're not
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: going to allow that. I made clear to Secretary Noem,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: I know it was on her way out, but at
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: the time she was still the secretary, that we would
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: not tolerate this, that we would take steps to stop it.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: And just a few days ago, I put them on
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: notice that for them to be able to build these facilities,
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: they require, I'm going to nerd out on you here,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: but it's important, they require a number of permits through
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: the Department of Environmental Protection in the state and other
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: state agencies. And based on the sort of general plans
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: that they have, they would not qualify for receiving a
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: permit in Pennsylvania. And I'm going to use every lever
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: of power I have to hold it up.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Did you talk to them directly about it?
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: I communicated with her in writing about it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Uh, did you ever, ever get on the phone with her,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: have any direct contact with her while she was running
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: the department?
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: Uh, one time, uh, we missed each other and exchanged
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: voicemails about a snowstorm that was coming.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Uh, speaking of, uh, permits, uh, you're, you, you fixed
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: on 95 and like, like two weeks, right? Was that it?
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Two weeks?
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, 12 days, 12, 12 days, 12 days.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: That was amazing.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Honestly, that was, that was, look, uh, uh, uh, In California, man,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: just to think about a bike path, you're talking about
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: six months. Just to think, if you have the thought,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: you have to wait six months. How did you do
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: it in two weeks, 12 days? And why is it
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: that we can do fast construction in emergencies, but we
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: struggle to do it outside of those moments?
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Well, we're doing fast construction, period, now. And I'll talk
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: about that in a sec. But first on 95, we
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: had a big chunk of I-95 collapse when a fuel
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: tanker exploded underneath, um, that roadway, which connects by the way,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Maine all the way to Florida, but is a big,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: heavy artery from say like New York to DC and
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: goes through Philly about 200,000 cars and trucks every day. Um,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: the road literally collapsed, found out at, you know, 6,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: 7 AM, something like that, uh, immediately went to the
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: scene once the fire was out and you're looking at
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: like a gaping hole. And my immediate response, I am
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: not an engineer. was fill the damn hole with a
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: bunch of dirt, pave over it, get traffic moving again.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Why do I share that with you? Because that sort
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: of set the tone for how we approach this. Number one,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I signed an executive order doing away with all the
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: procurement headaches and all the deadlines and delays that typically
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: would slow down a project so that we could get
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: the project started not within days or hours, but within minutes.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: So that was number one. Number two, We put the
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: best team on the ground who had the expertise to
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: do the work, and that is the Philadelphia building trades,
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: union building trades, who know how to build roads, who
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: know how to build bridges and do this work. Number three,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: we trusted them to do this work. So every time
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: there was a question about something, they didn't have to
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: call back to headquarters and wait weeks to get an answer.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Here's an example of that. Remember I said before, fill
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: it with dirt, pave over it, what have you. Someone
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: there had the idea that, and they said this to
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: me very politely, I'm sure they wanted to be like,
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: you don't know what you're talking about, but they were polite.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: They said, you know, governor, we can't use dirt because
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: dirt's really heavy and it'll take a long time for
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: the dirt to settle before we can put asphalt over it.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: But there's this recycled material that's made of recycled glass,
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: requires no time to settle, and it's super light. We
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: can put that as a foundation and then pave over it.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: They had this innovative idea, the people right out in
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: the community. Now I immediately thought this stuff's going to
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: be in like New Zealand or something. It's going to
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: take forever to get here. It was in Delco, Delaware County,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: you know, right around the corner from where we were
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: in Philly. We trucked that stuff in while the road
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: that was there was being demolished, getting ready to fill
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: it up. The building trades work 24-7, 365, right? We
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: put it on a live webcam so Philly could watch.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: You literally go in a Philly sports bar and And
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: you'd see the Phillies on one screen and you'd see
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: the I-95 workers on the other. It became a point
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: of pride for us, which is the final point I
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: want to make. It showed that we can do big
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: things in this country. It shows that when we kind
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: of put our shoulder to the wheel, we can accomplish
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: big things. And we do not need to be mired
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: in the slowness that typically dictates the speed of government.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: From that experience, we made clear that we're going to
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: be about getting shit done in Pennsylvania. about getting rid
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: of the limitations on us and about performing at a
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: fast and high level. And so we then set out
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: to fix our permitting system in Pennsylvania. We went from
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: roughly 48th in the country, in terms of speed to permit,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: to being first or second or third in the country
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: on speed. The day I took office took eight weeks
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: to get a simple business license. Now you get it
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: same day. The big buildings that we're trying to build
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: used to take years and years and years to get
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: permitted through our Department of Environmental Protection. You're not going
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: to permit in less than six months. We are faster
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: than other states. And so we not only rebuilt I-95
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: in record time, we're building and constructing right now in
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: record time. And as a result of that, we've got
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: the only growing economy in the northeastern part of the
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: United States. Our unemployment rate has been below the national
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: rate for 32 straight months. We created more jobs than
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: all but three other states in the entire country. We
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: cut taxes seven different times and have an $ 8 billion surplus.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: We're making really strategic investments. The economy is growing. And
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: a huge reason why is because our government is nimble
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: and it is fast. I-95 may be the sort of
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: example of that, exhibit A of that that folks noticed.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: But every day we're doing the blocking and tackling of
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: governing that's getting the job done and getting it done quickly.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Do you view that as a way in which the
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Biden administration just didn't understand the need to have that
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: kind of mentality in executing? There's a lot of examples,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: electric charging stations, what have you. Is that a failure
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: of Democrats nationally to understand how to kind of quickly implement?
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Look, I'm not here to like shit on anybody or
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: trash anybody. That's too bad. I will just tell you,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I think that we have a responsibility when we're governing
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: to show our work. to put the points on the
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: board that people can see. Because I think at the
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: end of the day, what people really want is their
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: elected leaders, particularly executives, mayors, governors, presidents, they want them
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: to be out there fixing something for them. And I
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: think the things they basically want are good schools for
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: their kids, safe communities to live in, an economy that
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: creates opportunity for them and their communities in communities that
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: they can afford, right? Kind of fits together. And I
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: think they want their rights and their freedoms protected. And
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you, John, when I'm on a farm in
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: a county that voted for Donald Trump 80-20, or whether
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I'm in the city of Philadelphia that voted for Kamala Harris,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: you know, roughly 80-20, I hear the same thing. That's
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: what people want. And so I think it's incumbent upon
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: leaders to not just pass the bill, but then actually
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: drive out the funding and get the construction going to
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: not just talk about something, but deliver on it in
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: order to make people's lives better.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, and I hear you're not wanting to
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: just sort of not asking you to go back and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: just shit on the Biden administration. But, but I do
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: think if there's a perception in the public that Democrats,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Republicans are extreme, but, but Democrats, they're just kind of
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: weak and can't move things forward. We've got to figure
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: out why people have that perception and, and, and what
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: are the ways Democrats have failed. And I'm, and I'm,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Wondering if you see any ways in which you think
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: like national Democrats right now are not doing enough to
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: signal that they're not just sort of saying the right things,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: but can actually get things done for people.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Well, look, nationally, Democrats, you're talking about Democrats in Congress.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: They don't have the levers of power right now. We
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: need to make sure we get them back. And I'm
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: hopeful that if we have a national referendum in these
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: midterms on Donald Trump, we will win back the U.S.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: House at least and be able to have a check
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: and be able to have some authority at the table
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: to affect Democrats. outcomes. I think, for example, if you
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: go back and look a few years ago when Democrats
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: were in charge in Washington, they did an extraordinary job
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: of passing some of the most sweeping infrastructure laws our
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: country's ever seen. And I commend President Biden and the
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Democrats who were leading Congress at the time for getting
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: that done. I was also really direct with the Biden
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: administration that Once we pass it, that's step one. We
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: got to get the dollars out and get the construction going.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: That's the important step, too, so that people kind of
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: see with their own eyes the effect of sending Congressman
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: so-and-so or President Biden to the job to deliver for them.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: And so I think that that is something, you know, again,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: I can really just speak for myself. That is something
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: I focus on every day is not just passing the
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: bill or advocating for the change. but showing how it's
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: making a tangible difference in people's lives.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Well, there were moments after those bills passed, you're the governor,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: where you're like, hey, where's the fucking money? Like we said,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: we passed this years ago. Like, why aren't we doing this?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: How do we get this done? Like, are you calling Buttigieg?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Are you calling Kamala Harris? Are you calling to try
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: to speak to the president? Like, what was it like
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: trying to get things moving with the administration?
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I was, and I would call them
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: directly and say, hey, look, we passed this, but we've
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: got to drive the dollars out. Or we're kind of
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: held up in a regulatory process here. Can you release
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: the money so we can get started on this? And
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I was very clear about that.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about Iran, because obviously we're in the midst
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: of a war with Iran. What is your view? on
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: the war right now, how it was launched, what the
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: status is.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Well, look, I mean, you absolutely cannot trust Donald Trump
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: to wage this war. I mean, first he told us
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: it was to go after their nuclear arsenal, which he
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: also said seven months ago, six months ago, or whatever
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: it was, that it was completely decimated. Then he said,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: we went to war because if we didn't, Israel was
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: going to strike first and we had to, and Israel
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: forced our hand. And then they kind of walked that back.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: Then it was to deteriorate their Navy. And then it
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: was regime change. And now we're left with the son
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: who's seemingly could be more dangerous than the father. The
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: point I'm making here is that this guy's been all
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: over the place. He's never once looked the American people
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: in the eye, sitting in the Oval Office where he
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: should have been, not at his swim club in Florida,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: and said to the American people, this is why we
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: have to do this. This is the imminent threat of
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: which we've now learned there was no imminent threat. And
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: so instead, the president engaged in a war of choice
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: without being clear what the reason was for going in. Now,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: some might be watching this dismissing me saying, it doesn't
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: matter why. They're bad guys. And by the way, bad
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: guys indeed. The EITO is a bad guy. Largest exporter
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: of terrorism around the world. Destabilized the entire Middle East.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Chanted death to America for five decades. These are bad people.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Shouldn't be hard to say that.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: But.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: If you don't know why you're going in, you don't
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: know how the hell to get out. And what we're
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: seeing more and more as the days go on are
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: sadly the loss of American heroes lives. We just lost
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: six more Americans in the refueling accident. We lost six, seven, apologize,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: a week or so earlier. We are losing lives in battle.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: when I think it's unclear why we were there in
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: the first place. I also have a problem with the
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: fact that the guy who is supposed to be in
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: charge of this, Pete Hegseth, is wildly incompetent. He's like
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: an eight-year-old playing with toy soldiers every day. His language
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: is so fucking offensive. They talk about this in a
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: way that doesn't respect the humanity in the region and
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: certainly is disrespectful to our soldiers. of which there are
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Pennsylvanians who are engaged in this fight on behalf of
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: a commander in chief who doesn't have a clue what
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: he's doing. So this was a war of choice by
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: the president. Wasn't clear why we went in, and it's
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: unclear how we get out. I said the first day
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: of this, or within the first hours, that Congress needed
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: to act, which I know some people think is sort
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: of processy or whatever, but it is actually the way
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: the law of this country works. Sadly, Congress did act,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: and they acted to give the president carte blanche here.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: They basically acted to be wildly weak and pathetic souls
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: who were just going to give away their authority to
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: this president. So this is the president's war he started,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: and now it's the president's war he's got to figure
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: out how to get out of. And he's surrounded by
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: an incompetent leader in Hegseth who I think really doesn't
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: have a clue on what he's doing here. And right
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: now we have a more destabilized situation. So I think
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: that is dangerous. For America, I think it is dangerous
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: for the world. The last point I want to make,
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: and thanks for letting me give a longer answer. I
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: think our enemies are watching and they are seeing weakness
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: by Donald Trump. President Xi in China, who is calculating
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: every day about when he's going to make his move
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: on Taiwan, saw President of the United States not only
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: not be able to rally the world around this cause,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: whatever the cause is, but couldn't even rally his own people,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: couldn't even rally the United States to be for this.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Remember way back to George W. Bush, we know how
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: it played out, but George W. Bush was 85% approval
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: rating on the war when he started. Again, not suggesting
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: what he did was right there, but he rallied the
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: country around the response.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: And there was two votes in Congress, one vote in
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Afghanistan and Iraq.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Exactly. So I think she is watching this seeing that
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: there's a weakness that the United States has. In addition,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: I think we've shown Xi we've got some military vulnerabilities
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: by moving certain weaponry from one region of the world,
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: one theater to another. I think they're seeing where there's
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: some vulnerabilities. Second, I think Putin is watching this, realizing
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: that we've now had to withdraw help from Ukraine. And
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: by the way, at the same time, Putin is able
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: to have more of his oil and more of his
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: natural resources go into the flow of commerce as a
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: result of this. So he's making more money and he's
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: got a cleaner shot at Ukraine, which is unfortunate. So
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: not only unfortunate, but dangerous, I should say. So I
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: think it's bad because you can't trust this guy to
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: prosecute the war. And I think it's bad because it
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: is showing the rest of the world the weakness of
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump and the weakness of this administration. And all
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: of that combined leaves us worse off and leaves the
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: world more destabilized.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: So it was genuinely surprising to see the Secretary of State,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: Marco Rubio, basically say, we had to act because Israel
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: was going to go first. And they've tried to walk
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: that back. That has fed into, I think, some of
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the kind of anti-Semitism you see on the far right,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: a bit of what you also see on the left
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: that were in this war because of Israel. It brought
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: us back to this debate over Israel. Governor Gavin Newsom,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: when talking to John and Tommy on Pod Save America,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: he was referencing an article by Thomas Friedman, but he
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: said that people are talking about Israel appropriately as sort
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: of an apartheid state. And I'm wondering what your reaction
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: is to that comment and what it tells you about
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: how the politics on Israel have shifted.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Well, look, Gavin should speak for Gavin, and I'm not
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: going to weigh in on his commentary. I'll just say, look,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: I think that there are sort of foundational issues here
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: that a lot of people are grappling with. And I
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: think a lot of people are grappling with it from
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: an honestly held view or concern. I'll come back to
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: the comment about, or I'll come back to it. answering
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: your question about apartheid, because I think that was the
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: comment he made, if I'm not mistaken. But I sort
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: of start this conversation around the notion of the question
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of people raise now is, does Israel even
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: have the right to exist? Should we sort of be
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: viewing Israel as an ally? Should they even be allowed
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: to exist. And I would argue as someone who is
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: desirous for peace, as someone who for the last 15,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: nearly 20 years has been calling for a two-state solution,
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: which I realize feels very far away right now. I
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: get that. But the idea of Israel and a Palestinian
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: state where both recognize the other's right to exist, both
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: want to live peacefully and both recognize that the future
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: for their children is gonna be rooted and the foundational
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: principle will be around this idea of peace because that
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: will allow their children to grow up in a society
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: where they can be whatever they wanna be. I want peace.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: And for those who begin by suggesting Israel doesn't have
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: the right to exist as a Jewish state, I think
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: that is a recipe for permanent war. And so I
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: wanna see peace in the region. I also do think
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: it's sort of interesting that you've got 46, nations around
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: the world where the majority religion is Islam. 23 of
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: them recognize Islam as the official state religion. One has
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: the official state religion of Judaism, and that's the one
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: we keep talking about here. That then leads to a
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: broader question. You mentioned apartheid, right? Or that was the
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: comment that was made. And I would just say, as
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: we engage in that, we should first address this fundamental
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: question of what do we want in that region? And
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: if we really want peace, and I believe you want that,
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: then we've also got to be acknowledging that language matters here,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: that words matter. And then we've got to use words
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: that are actually rooted in reality and are able to
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: bring the temperature down to create a space for that.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: for that piece, for that opportunity. And so that's how
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I view this entire conflict. I would also say that
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: it is really important that we create space, which you do,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: for dialogue that is thoughtful and dialogue that's rooted in
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: reality and dialogue where we're precise with our words, where
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: we're able to acknowledge there's a lot of nuance in
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: on these issues and we should debate them. And just
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: because people have different opinions doesn't make them a bad person.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: And just because someone doesn't agree with the Netanyahu government,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: which I don't on many, many things, doesn't make him
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: an anti-Semite. Just because I disagree with Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: make me an anti-Semite in as much as because I
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: disagree with Donald Trump doesn't make me any less of
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: an American patriot. So I just think we've got to
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: be really thoughtful and careful and not just look for buzzwords.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: and not just sort of follow what's going to get
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: maybe some likes on Twitter, but we've got to be
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: thoughtful about a debate that is really, really hard to have,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: and we've got to have it. Discussion, not debate.
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So I'm somebody that, you know, I see that kind
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: of blurry line between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It was genuinely
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: shocking to see people defend Hamas or the murder of
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Jews after October 7th, also horrified by what I view
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: as ethnic cleansing, that Israel engaged in in Gaza, the
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: efforts to annex the West Bank, which are not only
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: just wrong morally, but also put this idea of a
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: two-state solution even further away, make Israel a pariah nation.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of Jewish people who feel
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: this conflict. How do you think about that conflict, that
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: sort of space between the Israel we were taught to
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: believe in growing up and the Israel that we see
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: and how it is conducting itself?
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: And I write about this a lot in my book,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: about the first trip I ever took to Israel, about
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: how important that was for me, how it helped me
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: get closer connected to my faith and closer connected to
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: my girlfriend who ended up becoming my wife years later.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: I have profound differences with the policies of Netanyahu. who's
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: largely dominated Israeli politics for the last two or more decades.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: I think he and Trump have politicized and poisoned the
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: relationship between the United States and Israel. And I think
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: at the end of the day, that makes America less
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: safe and undermines our national security. I look through all
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: of this through the prism of what's best for the
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: United States of America. the hyper-politization of these kinds of
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: relationships with Israel or with other countries in the realm
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: of foreign policy, I think ultimately works to the detriment
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: of American national security. I think it's fair game to
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: criticize the Netanyahu government. And I'm one who engages in that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: You mentioned the West Bank. Let me speak to that.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: I think what is happening in the West Bank, and
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: I've spoken out quite a bit about this, what's happening
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: in the West Bank where settlers are taking farms of Palestinians,
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: are assaulting them. We're in the case of a kid
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: from Northeast Philadelphia, a Palestinian American, killed him just a
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: week or two ago. I've called on General Bondi to
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: conduct a full investigation about the death of this American
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: young person in the West Bank. I think that that
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: is ultimately not in Israel's long-term interests. And I think
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: the Netanyahu government has a responsibility to stamp that out,
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: to stop that lawlessness. And I think the American government,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: the Trump administration, needs to speak up on this and
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: needs to be more of a voice of clarity, moral
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: clarity on this issue.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Right, but those are two things that are simply not
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: going to happen. Netanyahu wants to annex the West Bank,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: and Trump and the ambassador to Israel for the United States, Huckabee,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: believes we're on some sort of biblical crusade. So those
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: two things will not happen as long as Donald Trump
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: is there and Benjamin Netanyahu is there. So then what
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: is the value of beyond just calling for them to
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: become different people?
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: What do we do? Well, these are the leaders that
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: each country has chosen. I'm not going to speak to
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: what the people in Israel chose. They'll have an election.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: They'll figure that out. Here in the United States of America,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: we need to have more of a check on this administration.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: That's going to start in these midterms. We've got to
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: win the House of Representatives at least back. And That's
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: why I think we need a national referendum on these policy,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: on Trump's policies, and encourage everybody, whether you're in a
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: swing state like mine or a state that's maybe not
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: as much of a swing state like yours here in California,
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: to get out, to vote, to make sure our voices
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: are heard, to change the makeup of Congress and begin
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: to put more checks in place.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: All right, let's switch gears. I want to talk about
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: the book a little bit more, especially about when you
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: were a kid. Were you a popular kid? Did you
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: call yourself popular?
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: My wife would say I was like one of the
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: cool kids. Yeah. I think my coolness factor probably has
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: gone down since then.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we'd have to. Look, you're many things.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I don't think you're cool. I don't think that's bad.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: I don't need cool. Well, the reason I ask is
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: because And it speaks to what we were just discussing.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: You and your mom were advocating for Soviet Jews who
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: were trapped in the Soviet Union. You start this organization.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: You're advocating a Soviet Jew. A young boy manages to escape.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: He's at your bar mitzvah. You're speaking at your bar mitzvah.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Your rabbi is praising you. All the other moms must
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: have been just telling their sons, like, boy, why wish
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: you could be more like little Joshi Shapiro, right? You
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: were like a star at that temple. It's a Frank
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Lloyd Wright temple. That's the cool, that was like the
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: big prestigious temple. Come on, it's a Frank Lloyd Wright temple?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: You were the king of the bar mitzvah boys, weren't you?
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: It was a pretty amazing moment. I mean, my mom
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: taught me about the Soviet Union. I didn't know what
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: the hell the Soviet Union was. I was like an
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: eight-year-old kid when she's talking to me about it. She
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: taught me about kids that were growing up without parents.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: the kind of freedoms that I just literally took for
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: granted as a, as a little kid here growing up.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: And she told me about this boy named Avi Goldstein,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: who was, you know, in this repressive regime being held,
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: basically captive. The family wanted to leave. And my mom said,
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: we got to go to DC and we've got to
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: advocate with our senators to see if they can do
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: something about it. And I remember meeting with Senator Joe Biden.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: I remember meeting with Senator Arlen Specter, who was one
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: of my senators from Pennsylvania and And they took me
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: to meet with Senator Ted Kennedy. I guess he was
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: the chairman of whatever the committee was that was relevant
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: or something. I don't know. And through their work, through
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: my advocacy of them and their work, they were able
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: to secure the release of the Goldstein family just a
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: couple of days before my bar mitzvah and bring the
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: kid to Elkins Park, Pennsylvania. We stood together, had our
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: bar mitzvah together. I wish, John, I could tell you
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: that was like my aha moment. I'm going to be
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: a senator one day when I grow up. Man, I
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: had no clue.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I believe you. I do believe you. However, look,
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: I was an ambitious, smart Jewish boy, but I'm small, gay,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: and weird. So nobody said I was going to be
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: president when I grow up, which is fine. I've accepted that.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: But I feel like you're handsome, you're speaking in front
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: of your temple, you're traveling, you're smart. Weren't people saying like, boy,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: that Josh Shapiro, he's going to be president. I know
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: how Jewish parents were.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know what the Jewish parents were saying, but
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: if you would have asked my ninth grade girlfriend to
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: go around our class and rank in order who would
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: be governor at the age of whatever, 50. I probably
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: have been dead last because I was also, you know,
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: a screw up and got in some trouble and was
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: kind of a goofball and, you know, basically just focused
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: on basketball.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Your sister's here. Your sister's here.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: She can attest to it.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Was he really getting in trouble? Come on. A little
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: bit of a shrug. Come on. I think you were
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: a good kid.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, I did write about how I got suspended
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: that one time.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: What did you do?
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: I locked a kid in this closet.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, you locked a kid and hurt his finger.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: I hurt his finger and... The principal told my parents
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: that I could come back to school, but I had
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: to make a decision. And she said it's the same
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: decision her son actually had to make. Was I going
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: to grow up to be a good kid or was
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: I going to grow up to get in a lot
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: of trouble? And I kind of decided to be the former,
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: not the latter.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: And you've only lost one election in your life. It
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: was your student council race.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: I'm still pissed about that.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: And now Jake Tapper is- I'm 12-1, by the way.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: 12-1.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Jake Tapper actually ran- And won, not in the same year,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: he ran and won his race. What are the qualities
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: that Jake has as a leader that you do not have?
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: By the way, Jake got in a lot of trouble, too,
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: his senior year of high school. I don't know if
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: we want to get into that here, but I'm not sure.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: I guess Jake probably promised better soda in the machines
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: than I did.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Sort of told people what they wanted to hear.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: I think he probably told people what they wanted to hear.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Okay. Now, freshman year of college, you run for student
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: council president.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: And you win at college at the University of Rochester, right?
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: As a freshman, you're running for president.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Man, accidentally, I sort of fell into it. I went
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: to college to be a doctor like my dad because
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: I saw my dad helping people growing up. I thought
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: that was the most extraordinary thing, the way my parents
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: helped people and my dad being the local baby doctor.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Every kid in our neighborhood went to see my dad.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: And I wanted to be like him. I also was
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: pretty good at basketball back then. I was quick and
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: I was a good point guard. And good at sports.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you what.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: A Jew that's good at sports?
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Unicorn, okay.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Freshman year, I flunk out of pre-med. Same day, later
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: that day, I got cut from the men's basketball team.
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: And that night, someone knocked on my dorm room door
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: and said, hey, Shapiro, we need somebody to run for
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: student government. And I'm like, I remember that experience a
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: couple years ago. I'm not doing that. He's like, look, dude,
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: you got nothing else going on in your life. You
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: should give it a shot. I ran. I won for
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: like our student senate or whatever and immediately fell in
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: love with it. And we had a bunch of big
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: issues that came up. I worked hard to resolve them.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: And then I thought as my freshman and my freshman year,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'll give it a shot. And I went
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: around and knocked on a bunch of doors on college campus,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: became the first freshman to ever win. And I think
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: that door knocking experience set me on this path. Well, because.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: There's a strange thing we do in our culture where
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: we like people to be ambitious, but we also want
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: them to pretend that they just happen upon great success.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: There's something about, I don't know, it's a the only
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: people that are allowed to admit they want to be
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: super famous and successful are Real Housewives. Everybody else has
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: to do this all shucks routine. And, you know, you
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: say in the book, like, I wanted to fish differently.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: I take an unconventional path. But you went from state
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: rep to county commissioner to attorney general to governor. And
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: I think that's a great path for an ambitious and
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: a positive way, a person who wants to have more
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: and more of an impact on their community who believes
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: they have talents and skills. And it seems to me
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: like you're on a path to try to use what
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: gifts you have to do as much good as possible,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: however high that can go. Is that right?
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But what you didn't say was that there were
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: several sort of whatever you call it, forks in the
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: road or whatever, where the political class, where the conventional
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: wisdom was Shapiro should run for something else. First, it
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: was U.S. Congress. Then it was United States Senate. And
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: what you didn't note when you were rattling that off
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: is that I didn't choose those paths, even though that's
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: where All the political folks thought I should go. Each
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: step of the way, what I have tried to do
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: is to choose a path where I could have the
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: most impact, where I could serve the most people, and
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: where I could use whatever talent I have to make
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: a difference in life. That was true when I called
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: the vice president's staff and said that I was not
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: interested anymore in being considered for the vice presidency. It
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: was true when I called Chuck Schumer and said, I
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: don't want to run for the U.S. Senate. It was
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: true when I decided not to run for Congress. I
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: made some decisions throughout my career that I think the
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: political class might look at and say, well, why did
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: he choose that? That doesn't make any sense. But it
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: was all rooted in kind of what you said in
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: the crux of your question, which is how can I
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: best serve? How can I best help? And yeah, I'm
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: ambitious to get shit done for people. And I want
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: to use the position that people have entrusted me with
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: to deliver for them.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: You talked to Tim Alberta about the VP thing. And
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: there's this moment where you just sort of said, Uh,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: she's trying to sell books and cover her ass. And
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: then you're like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. That
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: was too harsh. I should just, I should just be
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: critical on the, on the, on the, on the merits.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, that was a relief to
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: me to see like, cause you know what? Maybe she
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: is trying to sell books and cover her ass. And
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: it's good that you can just say it. Uh, clearly
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: there was like a real tension between in that process
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: for VP. And I'm like, I'm, I'm curious. You talk
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: about it a little bit in the book. I'm curious
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: where your head's on it now, because when you first
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: get the call, You were emotional about the possibility.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: Very much so.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: And by the end, you're like, fuck this.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: It was unbelievably humbling and an honor to be considered in,
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, really what was an incredibly truncated period. You
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: went through it, obviously, with President Obama. You know it
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: was a long process and you know everything that occurred there.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: This was completely different, right, just given the circumstances of
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: the election. And I was humbled and I was grateful.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: And to this day, I'm really thankful to the vice
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: president for the incredibly honest conversation that we had at
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: her residence on that Sunday morning. You know, sitting at
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: a small table like this, just being really direct. And
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: what was very clear to me at the conclusion of
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: that very honest and direct conversation was that this was
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: not the right fit. And it was not going to
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: be the best way for me to serve people. And
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think it would have been the best way
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: to serve her. And she deserved to have someone with
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: her who would do it exactly the way she wanted.
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: And that's why I telephoned that evening, which was roughly
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: 48 hours before she announced her decision, just to say, look,
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: you got some wonderful folks. I should not be, you know,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: in the mix as you consider this. And I'm going
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: to be all in for whoever you pick. And as
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: you know, and as I talk about in the book,
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: when she announced Tim Walls, who's a really good friend
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: of mine, that he was the pick, man, I showed
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: up in Philly that night. I, I announced them to
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: my hometown crowd and I campaigned all across the country
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: for the two of them and worked my tail off
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: to help them get elected.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out that Tim
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Waltz was in Mossad? That'd have been crazy. What a
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: twist that would have been.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would have been a twist.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: You really think, they didn't, you were, was it, wasn't
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: it like, there's a, is that just a box checking question?
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Do you really think you were being asked if you
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: were in an operative of Israel?
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: We went through an entire process for whatever it was,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know, a week or so, where there were
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of boxes being checked. This was a phone
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: call to me roughly an hour before I walked in
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: to meet with the vice president.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: And saying no is exactly what an agent of Mossad
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: would say.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Something to think about.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Before we let you go, rapid fire for Hanukkah. One
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: big present for the kids or eight small presents?
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: We do one.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: One big present?
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I like that.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: That's better.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: What do you do?
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: We did, when we were very little, we had... seven tiny,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: tiny gifts, like stickers, and then one.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: And then one.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: Is there like chocolate, little tiny thing?
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it's a similar deal. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Gefilte fish, yes or no?
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: Disgusting.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Really? Yeah. I think that's right.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: It feels like there should be a way to fix it,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: but it never gets fixed.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like judge people that like it. I
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: just don't like it myself.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: You keep kosher. Do you have any non-kosher guilty pleasure snacks?
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: No. No.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: And is there anything you want to try but can't try?
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: Is there one thing? If you got a little note
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: that said, you know, God's closing the, Not looking for like,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: you know, sort of 20 minutes. What are we eating?
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: A Philly cheesesteak at Angelo's in South Philly.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Have you never had a Philly cheesesteak?
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: No.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: You've never had a Philly cheesesteak? You also haven't had
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: a pork sandwich from Denix.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: That's a bummer. Do you eat kosher style at non-kosher places?
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Would you get a sandwich from Denix that wasn't pork
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: or do you have to eat at a kosher establishment? No, no, no.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: I eat at all kinds of establishments. I just wouldn't
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: eat pork or meat or things like that.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: That's a shame. I feel like we should get, as
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: a sister, do you keep kosher?
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: Wow. Wow.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Just see if we can sneak you a pork sandwich
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: by accident.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: Bagel order? Bagel, egg, and cheese. Get a little protein.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Okay. What kind of bagel?
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Plain, whole wheat, sesame, cinnamon raisin. Cinnamon raisin? Not a
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: big everything guy. Okay.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Toasted or not toasted?
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: Toasted. It's got to be toasted. No matter how fresh
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: it is, it's got to be toasted.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: That's a horrible answer. Governor Josh Shapiro.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: You wouldn't toast the bagel?
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Not if it's right out of the oven. Not if
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: it's right out of the oven. you got a beautiful
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: fresh bagel on your hands.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you kind of have the little crispiness on top.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: That might be just because you're in Pennsylvania and you're
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: just sort of.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: Now you're going to knock Pennsylvania?
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm just saying the quality of the bagels that are... Look,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it's a New York City thing that
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: you would... Maybe the bagels do need a toast.
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Maybe they do in Pennsylvania.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: Maybe in Pennsylvania they need to tell us. I'm just asking.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: I'm just asking questions. I'm just asking questions. Governor Josh Shapiro,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: thank you for your time. Really good talking to you.
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: Thanks, John.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: All right, that's our show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: will be back in your feed with a brand new
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: episode on Tuesday.
• 59:38
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• 59:56
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• 59:59
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