Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 339 - Clandestine Conundrums

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 339 - Clandestine Conundrums · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he's up to.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: He's picking me like chickens, shocking me like corn, storing.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Me like an ice dum. Can I ask you something, honey?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Come on, the man's trying to get some No, that's okay,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: go ahead, ask away.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: I just got to know the Kennedy assassination.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Did Oswald act alone?
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: Hey, that's for me to know. And Oliver, Yeah, I
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: like your hair in the middle with the silver hair.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: How old are you.
• 0:37
  Speaker 5: Seventy?
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: Who killed JFK?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to read all those pages?
• 0:47
  Speaker 6: What do you think killed?
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: You think the government killed?
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 0:58
  Speaker 5: The disruptor and che Elon Musk, who apparently has adopted
• 1:02
  Speaker 5: the alias at least he changed his social media handle
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: to carry Balls, tweeted this morning, democracy in America is
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: being destroyed.
• 1:14
  Speaker 7: Yo, Yo, it's your boy, the Tesla King Elon Musk.
• 1:18
  Speaker 7: The boys always make my rocket shoot straight up? No, homo,
• 1:21
  Speaker 7: you bout to listen to the number one JFK related
• 1:25
  Speaker 7: podcast on planet Mars. Now plug in your neural link
• 1:29
  Speaker 7: for two numb nuts who aren't a waste of government spending,
• 1:34
  Speaker 7: The Triple B and Joe.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: By isuo me show me.
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: Joe?
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Men show me, Joe me, and then show me, yeah, sell.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: Them, show kill we and here we go, Here we go. Indeed,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: what's up, folks. It is Friday night, it is seven
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: pm Eastern, and it is another fantastic episode of the
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: longoming podcast we have for you. It's an episode three
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: thirty nine tonight. Clan just clandestine conundrums.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Say that five times quickly.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: No, no thanks, clan dustin conundrums. I wanted to call
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: it something else, but we can't sure. But it's all.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: It's like it kind of rolls off the tongue if
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: you say it enough. Kind of Uh. Let's start out
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: by thanking mister John for super chat. Always appreciated. Thank you, John,
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: thank you, thank you, thank you, sir, thank you, thank you,
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: thank you very much. Let's welcome some folks in here
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: before we get started. We got Sally first in line.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Bring her sweet ruby T shirt.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, did she send you a picture of video?
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: No? No, she.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: For she mentioned it in the pregame comments.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: Well here's the whole she said.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: She's fat. I sent you the video, thanking you both
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: for the hard work. I don't know if the video
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: is with the shirt.
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: We'll get it our DMS are always open.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Slide in there, slide.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Time.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: She did check in at six pm and did a
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: timestamp and I acknowledged that it's okay.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Hello timing, second in line, little timey. The Millennium Falcon
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: is cleared hot. I for one, I'm just a little
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: bit stoked about the second season of andor.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: The first season started off a little slow for me,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: but it got better in the second season. Twelve episodes
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: should be a banger, So fingers crossed for that. Nerd
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: out just a little bit there, Sorry, Zendar. What's up
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: James Smith? Hopefully you cut your servas by now. Southwest
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: up in this house? What is up?
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: South the West?
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Our resident rocket Queen Colleen in the house. What's up Colleen?
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Colleen?
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: And thank you Colleen. She slid in the dms UH
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: with a much needed video last night, So I want
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: to thank Colleen for that. It came in just the
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: right time I needed. I need a little infusion of
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: that in my life. Well pick me up if you will, Hey,
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: we all do yes. Paul coming up in the house.
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: What's up? Paul? Paul Claude and Dene up in here
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: from Galvison Island down there in the Gulf of America.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: And Paula Jane none other.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, Paula Jane up in the house, Paula and uh.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And Randall Brooks just commented first time live. Can't wait.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: Oh, you're for a treat. Randall Brooks tell you, I don't.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Know if you came here from Reddit. I'm in a
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: post about an hour ago. But if you did, welcome,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: If you came from another If.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: You didn't, you slide to Joe and say you did. Yes,
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: it was a little better for posting on Reddit.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, hey, just you know. And by the way they
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: read it, posts and subscribers have made us almost reach
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: two thousand. I think we were at twenty one hundred.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: We are at twenty ninety three. So if you are
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: watching this and you have not subscribed, please do andah
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: sure we'll be at twenty one hundred by next Friday.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: So give us over the hump.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: We were just at two thousand a couple of weeks ago.
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: I no, I want to get to where it's is.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: Two point one, Joe, two point one. We'll get that,
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: Yes we will, and it will be a glorious moment.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a good crew over here. Randall and
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: we just try to talk some rational JFK. And tonight
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: we're going to be tackling two interesting topics. Yeah, yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I'll let you kind of take it from there.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: Yes, I will explain to everyone Joe's gonna be talking
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: about Gary Underhill, of which a lot of unredacted documents
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: came out in this latest release concerning the Gary Underhill story.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: And I didn't know anything about it before all that hullabaloo. Yes,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: but apparently it's been around for a while. Just you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: certain things have been redacted, and with a lot of
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: these things, you can only go so far unless you
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: start really looking into it. So you know, that's what
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: we do around here.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I have some surprises for you, Rob going back to Garrison,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: even our old pal Gary Schoener talking about Underhill. So yes,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: it has been around in his letters to to Wiseberg
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: or this one was Peen Jones actually so very interesting. Yeah,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: but we'll get to that later.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Awesome. Yeah, And I figured, you know, since we're talking
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: about allegedly the CIA taking out people, okay for possibly
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: what they know on us soil, you know, I thought
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: about something that I don't believe I've ever covered on
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: the show before. Joe and that is the death of
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: Mary pincho Meyer. All right. There was a book that
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: came out some years ago to a great harangue called
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: Mary's Mosaic by Peter Janney. And I keep kicking myself
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: in the ass because I had the chance to buy
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: the book in this bookstore, use bookstore in Frederick, and
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: it was autographed by the author and all that stuff,
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: and I didn't do it. It was like three bucks.
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: Oh no, yeah, And I was damn it, but I was.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: I can't remember if we if I told everybody on
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: the Wednesday Ay show or if I told you after
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: the show. Muh, I think the show. I think I
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: did too, So I'll may just throw it, throw it
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: out there for everybody. So there's some books that I
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: would like to have to complete my I mean, I
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: have a lot of books about the JFK assassination.
• 9:24
  Speaker 8: A lot of books.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: Uh. Most of them I was able to get, you know,
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: very cheaply it use bookstores.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: We got some great ones around where I live. And
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: there was one that that has eluded me all these years.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: I haven't on PDF, you know, for you know, the
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: free version whatever. And we've talked about it somewhat on
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: this show before because it kind of adds to the
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: mystique of the John T. Martin story and the Oswald fracas.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: And yet YadA. And that's a book called Reasonable Doubt
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: by Henry Hurt that came out and I believe it
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: was in nineteen eighty six, And so I was like,
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: you know what, I need a physical copy of this
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: book because I would like to have it, you know,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: I just I just want one. So I finally broke
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: down and I ordered it off Amazon, and they had
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: a bunch of like, you know, good copies, But I
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: was like, you know, I don't want to beat up
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: ass book, you know what I mean? Like I wanted
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: something decent.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they have an excellent, good, poor, yeah couple.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: And I know it's a forty year old book, but
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: you know, hey.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: You want Yeah. And in many cases, robin excellent or
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: good is like a couple more dollars than the poor
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: or lower version, So it's worright, depending on the supply,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: of course.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I found a very good copy rated BG
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: and it was also rated collectible. Now normally what that
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: means is that the author has signed it to somebody,
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: or it's a special, first edition, number, limited edition or whatever.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: But it didn't really say why it was collectible, so
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: you know, it was just you know, shot in the dark.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: So it was like nineteen bucks. I ordered it and
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: it came and I was like, all right, what makes
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: this thing collectible? So, you know, I came. It was
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: very nice. It was in great condition. It had a
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: plastic dust jacket over the normal dust jacket, so everything
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: was really sweet looking, you know, like kind of like
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: the Library is due to their books, but it wasn't
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: a library book. It was a first edition and it
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: was signed by the author and guess who it was
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: signed to. Folks, Holy wow, you're gonna love this one.
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: So I opened it up to the title page is
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: to my good friend John F. Kennedy Junior. Had a
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: great time. I'm hanging out with you and Darryl. You know,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: it's great to see you. Can't wait to see you again.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: This is for you all the best, my friend, much love,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: Henry Hurt. I was like, whoa, I just bought John F.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: Kennedy Junior's copy of Reasonable Doubt.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: That is a one of one as the kids call it, Sir.
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: I was like, what, that's crazy, dude, never read it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, the spine had never been cracked, right, but yeah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: never read it right, right? Yeah, So I thought that
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: was pretty cool.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: Now I got John F. Kennedy Junior's reason or copy
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: of Henry Hurt's book Reasonable Doubt on my shelf. So
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: that's awesome, bro.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was holding that book at some point
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: when he was giving it over, right, even if he
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: didn't read it, he held it.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he had it at some point. Yeah. Wow, craziness, crazy,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: the cool things you could find places like that. Yeah,
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: and I know, I know a lot of people have
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: heard about Uh oh, we got a doubt or in
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: the house, Rick, Right, So mary Meyer had no association
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: to the JFK case. Well, that's not what we're saying. Uh.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Let's let's get a little into it here and
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: then uh and then make a logical conclusion here.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: Let us cook, Rick, let us cook. You're slow boiling
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: this for you.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: And everyone makes up their own mind. You know, we
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: just present the documents and some of the facts.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, just the whole hold tight. I mean, and like
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: I said, we'll get into it. But you know, the
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Mary Meyer thing really paid no attention to it. Didn't
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: read Mary's Mosaic. I've heard I've heard tangentially things over
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: the years of people that have read the book. It
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: was much bandied about, you know, fifteen years ago on
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: the interwebs and YadA, YadA, YadA. So I figured, you know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: it's been alleged that the CIA could have possibly been
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: behind her Mergeois and same with Gary Underhill allegedly, so
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: we figured it'd be a good combination to maybe dive
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: into some of these things. I've never talked about it
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: here on the show before, and maybe some people have
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: never heard about it.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: So yeah, no, for sure. And and I kind of
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: just know the basics, right.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: I know she was.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Married to Cordmyre, I know she had an affair with JFK.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I know she had as what is allegeds.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: I know, don't give away every God damn well, I'm saying,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: I know the basics.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I know the basics, so I'm looking forward to this
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, damn, come on, I didn't get I was just
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry for Erica. You're going to spoil you're
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: all's wedding. He does he do this often?
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Erica speak up sometimes, see, which is yes.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: Yes, Eric yes, yes, But.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: To your point, I I really don't know much about
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: her either. I just know like the very basics, you.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: Know, right, Well up, huh?
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Nor do I have my mind made up if she
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: had anything to do with the JFK assassination or not.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, I'm not saying that she had anything
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: to do with the JFK assassination. I'm saying that her
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: death is suspicious and could possibly the CIA have been
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: behind it for a reason, Okay, Right, And I didn't mean.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say like anything to do with
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the JFK assassination, like she was a plotter or something
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: something like that. I meant like maybe possible knowledge or whatever.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Right, I just want to clarify, all right. So there's
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of things that are alleged about the relationship
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: between Mary pintro Meyer and JFK. I mean, and again
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: it's alleged because we don't know for sure. Now their
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: relationship goes back aways and I'm trying to find when
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: when they moved into Hickory Hill. I think it was
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: nineteen fifty five. JFK and Jackie bought this house called
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: Hickory Hill in McLean, Virginia. Very close to where the
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: CIA headquarters is, right down the road and McLean. Okay,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: that's a nice house. It is a nice house. Well,
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: it turns out their neighbors were Cord Meyer and Mary
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: Pinchot Meyer. Okay, so that's how they became friendly, Yes, yeah,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: how they became friendly and get to know each other
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: and all that stuff, became friends because you know, cord
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: Meyer being with the CIA and JFK being in politics,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: they weren't around all the time, you know, they were,
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: they were going a lot. So these ladies, these socialite
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: ladies from you know, high standing, would often hang out
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: and gossip and do what women do, go shopping, ship
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: like that, you know, and you know, just hang out.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And Mary was a big socialite from from what I understand, right.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah she was, well she was a lot of things.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Actually Georgetown scene or whatever.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: She wasn't what they call Joe, your typical wife. Okay,
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: a little bit about her, all right. So she's the
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: daughter of a Northeastern elite for so long it played
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: a dominant role in American economy, culture, and government. She
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: herself took up painting and joined the Abstract Expressions Washington
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: Color School as a student of Kenneth Nolan. Some of
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: her paintings hanging museums today. Now, if you'll look closely
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: back at the cover photo here, right under the word conundrums,
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: is a circular painting. Do you see that, Joe, I do. Okay, Well,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: it's not obvious that that's a painting, but that is
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: one of her paintings. Actually interesting. Yeah, And she was
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: into this abstract, linear, weird shit type thing, right.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: Her uncle was a fellow by the name of Gifford Pinchot,
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: who was the best friend of President Theodore Roosevelt. He
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: was also the first chief of the US Forest Service
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: in later governor of Pennsylvania. Her father, Amos Pinchot, was
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: a lawyer and prominent progressive reformer in the nineteen twenties.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: Her sister, Antoinette or commonly known as Tony for short,
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: married a guy by the name of Ben Bradley, who
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: rose to fame as the executive editor of the Washington
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: Post and managed its coverage of the Pentagon Papers and
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: the Watergate scandal. Mary herself attended the elite Briarly School
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: in Vassar College or Vassar and whatever you want to
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: call it, where many of her classmates became involved in
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: the Washington elite through marriage to powerful elite players and politics.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: Immediately after World War Two, Mary married coord Meyer and
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: together they built the United World Feddlers Federalists. Later, Coord
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: would be beckon to join the CIA by none other
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: than Alan Dulls himself, where he shared his liberal idealism
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: and served in senior roles until nineteen seventy seven. One
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: of Cord's bosses was James Jesus Angleton. Maybe you've heard
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: of him, but not only was he Cord Meyer's boss,
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: he was one of Cordmyer's best friends. In fact, James
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Jesus Angleton was the godfather to two of the Meyer children.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: Really yeah, wow, so that is not one as they
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: were not one two two of them?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, as a godfather and myself Rob that's significant.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: Yes, very serious role, you know. So Angleton and his wife,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: Cordmyer and his wife, right, we're very good friends. And
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: they all lived very close together in Georgetown. So I
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: believe in nineteen fifty six, I was gonna say that
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: this house Hickory Hill here, JFK only lived here for
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: a year and then he sold it to his brother
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: because dude had like eleven kids and needed a big
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: ass house.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that looks like it has a lover of rooms.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a you know, it's a it's huge,
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: it's ginormous, and it actually stayed in the Kennedy family
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: until two thousand and nine. It was put up for
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: sale for twenty eight and a half million dollars, but
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: eventually sold for eight and a half million.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, well below asking.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: Went through an extensive renovation, and in twenty thirteen, after
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: being renovated, uh, sold again. So somebody flipped it. They
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: flipped the McMansion.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Hm hmm, yeah, I'm sure they made a nice profit
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: on it too.
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So when but when jaf Can Jackie sold this,
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: they moved to Georgetown to believe it was n Street
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: or Oa Street in Georgetown, and uh, that part of
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: Georgetown I'm very familiar with is lined with these brick
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: you know townhouses.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Ye. Yep.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: They're very big, they're very uh spacious, they're they're old,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: they're historic. And it was there that they lived very close.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: Jeff Can Jackie lived very close to Cordmire and Mary Meyer,
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: who had moved from Langley for Rginia or Yeah, Langley,
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: Virginia to Georgetown. They literally lived down right down the
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: block from him, and I think Angleton and his wife
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: lived like a street over. Yeah, so they were all
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: living very close together. Yeah.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure most of the other people that joined
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that own those townhouses were state department or this or that.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's all government people there.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So the relationship between Mary Meyer and John F.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: Kennedy started way before he was even in politics or
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: was president or anything like that. So, actually, in nineteen
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: thirty seven, Mary Pinchot was attending a school dance. Like
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: I said, this is nineteen thirty seven. This is the year,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: a year before Lee Harvey Oswald was born.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, years before we got into World War Two.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah. An impertinent young man named John F. Kennedy
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: repeatedly tried to cut in on her in her date
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: and dance with her. It was impossible not to know
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: who Kennedy was. His already famous father, multi millionaire businessman
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: in Hollywood, producer Joseph P. Kennedy, was named US Ambassador
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: to the United Kingdom the following year. But Mary was
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: offended by the young man's advances and apparently had no
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: contact with contact with him for more than a decade,
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: not until he murdered from World War II as a
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: hero and was elected first to Congress and then too
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: this Senate. But by that time he was already married
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: to Jaqueline Bouvier, and she was already married to court Meyer.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: But always on the prow, Kennedy pursued her despite his marriage.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Her resistance melted over time, and after he was elected president,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: she agreed to join him for dates in the White House.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Not much time passed before the two allegedly fell in love.
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: Contemporary account support this assertion and suggest that Kennedy would
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: have divorced Jackie after serving his second term in office.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Mary Pincho Meyer, John F. Kennedy's lover, was to become
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: his second wife, if you believe the hype. Mary's girlfriends
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: included her sister, of course, Tony Bradley, a woman by
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: the name of Katherine Graham, who later her husband's success
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: was as publisher of The White or Washington Post following
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: his suicide. Cecily Harriet Deltremont Angleton, wife of James Jesus Angleton.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: Say that name five million times. Polly Wisner, who was
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: married to one of the CIA's founding members. And Pamela
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: Harryman formerly.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Not Frank Wisner.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: Polly Wisner was Frank Wisner's husband or wife, whatever you
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: want to say. And Pamela Harriman, formerly Winston Churchill's daughter
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: in law, then married to Averell Harriman, a prominent State
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: Department official and one of the countryest wealthiest, wealthiest men.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, what is it brown something Harriman.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Of that theme. Yeah, he was in tight with the
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: Dulles brothers. Yes. So Cordmire was in World War Two
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: stationed in Hawaii, I believe, and he took some shrapnels
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: to the face and it also caused him to lose
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: an eyeball, and so his face was scarred up and
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: he was given a glass eye that looked reasonably passable,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: you know, as a substitute, I guess. And h somehow
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: met Mary Mormon or not Mary Mormon, Mary Meyer, not
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: Mary Mormon Mary Meyer in New York as he was recovering.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: I think she was doing some kind of like volunteer
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: work at a care center for veterans, you know, or something,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: and they met each other, they fell in love, and
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: you know, they eventually moved down here to go into whatever,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: and then he was. He was approached to through mutual
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: friends by Alan Dulles to join the CIA. And that's
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: what's happened. The men who frequented the Georgetown parties, where
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: gossip flowed as freely as liquor, included her then next
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: husband Cordmyre, Cord's mentor, Bosston friend, James Jesus Angleton, Frank Wesner,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: Joe Mhm, a former CIA director close to Angleton, Phil Graham,
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: a publisher and later co owner of The Washington Post,
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: Ben Bradley, and even occasionally John F. Kennedy.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, the elite circles and the cocktail parties of the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: DC elite.
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: Yes. Once Mary's intense affair with Jack Kennedy was underway,
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: she interacted frequently with Kenny O'Donnell, one of the President's
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: appointment secretary and procureer. She had little or no contact
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: with others in the White House since our Donald whister
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: in and out in secrecy. Unlike so many other women
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: during the three short years of the administration, Mary Meyer
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: was John F. Kennedy's lover in reality and not a
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: one night flame. Here's where it gets crazy.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Wait, what do you mean in reality? But not a
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: one time flame.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: No, it was in reality she was really his lover,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: not just a one night flame.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, good, thank you.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: H There was a book written called The Lost Diary
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: of m Now this is not well, it's basically a
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: fictional account of what her diary possibly could have said.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: So this is not a historically accurate diary portrayal. But now,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: the reason she had a falling out with Cordmire, I mean,
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: their marriage wasn't the greatest anyway, and I believe it
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: was in nineteen fifty four. It was fifty three, somebody
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: hit their dog and killed it. And then the next
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: year somebody hit their son in the road and killed him.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Oh I heard about this. This rings a bell. Yeah,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that was Cordmyer's son.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't read about this.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: After that, their marriage kind of fell apart and they
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: went through separate.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Ways, as a death of a kid does sometimes.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but they could. They remained somewhat friendly, you know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: as friendly as can be. But they still shared the
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: same circle of friends and uh, you know, confidants, since
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: you know, people's wives were still hanging out together. That
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: the guys hung out together, the women hang out at together.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: They just weren't together together anymore. Now there's an allegations
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: and I saw somebody bring it up here before. Timothy Leary,
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: the godfather of LSD.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Right, he wrote in his book, mister James Smith, who said,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: don't say anything Joe about him again.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: Not I'm just throwing it out there because he wrote
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: it in his book. Okay, he said that Mary Meyer
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: came to him and wanted his best shit, Okay, told
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: him she was going to dose the president and show
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: him everything that was right and wrong with the world. Right,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: mm hmm. So he did. He gave her his best
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: shit and apparently, well, I mean it started with her.
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: She was dropping acid with Allen Ginsberg when she went
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: out to California and then enlisted Timothy Leary and turning
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: on her girlfriends in Georgetown. Mary regards LSD as the
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: means by which she and her friends will convert the
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: powerful men of the administration to the cause of world peace.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: M hm. Right, So this is what they're kind of
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: blaming JFK's turn to peace. It's because he started tripping
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: on acid and you know, his mind expanding these you know,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: these other world and.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we do know JFK definitely liked to
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: control substances, even if they were given to him by
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: a doctor. But Mary Pinchell Meyer, I think you mentioned
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: in your earlier description of her, was really progressive, anti war,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So that makes sense to me that she could.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very left wing, very liberal, very anti war. You know, peace,
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: love and happiness before hippies were cool, you know what
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: I mean? Like that's what she headed the game.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: She's head of the game.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: There, she was the head of the game. Yeah.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: She manages to persuade several of the women she knows
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: not only to take alating themselves, but to administer to
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: their husbands. Could you imagine James Vangleton tripping.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Like he needed any help, right, bumbling around all day.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: It came up with this intricate mob hunt. You know what.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe she did. Maybe she was successful in giving it
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: to them. He was, who knows a lot of things.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: She does eventually succeed in enticing the President to experience
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: the drug, and shortly thereafter, Kennedy delivers a ringing plea
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: for world peace and a widely cited commencement address at
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: the American University on June tenth, nineteen sixty three, that
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: shocked the Pentagon and the State Department to their core. Mary,
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: via Paul Wolfe, who's the guy that wrote this lost
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: diary of him, imagines a direct connection between the LSD
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: and the Call for Peace. Mary regards that speech and
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: even more telling me his decision not to authorize support
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: for the invasion invading force of the Bay of Pigs
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: as reasons for his assassination. It becomes clear the pages
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: of her diary that the events of November twenty second,
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three were the doing of the CIA. Peter
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: Janney's book makes the same case, and in my case,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: and in my view, he does so convincingly. So whatever
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: became of this diary?
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Joe, I've heard murmurs, you know.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: But before we get there, let me just show everybody
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: a little bit over the crime scene. This is an
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: actual photo of the crime scene. This is down on
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: the tow path beside the beside the canal and George.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: She was shot while jogging or something.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Right, No, she was taking a walk, taking a walk.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: She had just got done painting and painting at her
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: at her townhouse. Right. She left a fan blowing on
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: it for the paint to dry. She put on three
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: layers or clothes and went out to take a walk
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: because it was a beautiful day and ends up being
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: shot at very close range in broad daylight.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah executions. Yeah, I think one to the back and
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: one to the back of the head or something.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: That's right, brother, But yeah, I'm not one hundred percent sure.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: But uh, it doesn't seem random. Might be.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they blamed this guy uh on the left there
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: under the yeah for her death, but there was a
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: lot of missing evidence, shall we say. I don't think
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: they ever recovered the gun. You know, this guy was
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: just somewhere close by and they just pinned it on him. Well,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: it's not poor bastard shot.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: And she didn't. Doesn't seem like someone that would be
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: nefarious enough to get shot walking execution style, unless maybe
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: one of these powerful people found out she was the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: source of them getting dosed out other reason. But she
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: seems like she was very like peaceful at my point,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: So why would someone what.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: She knew or what she may have been saying. So
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: let me go back to when they first met each other.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: Remember I told you they met at a dance and
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Kennedy kept trying to cut in. Well, the guy he
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: was trying to cut it on at the time was
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: a guy by the name of William Attwood, who would
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: later figure into the secret negotiations with the Castro regime
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: which directly preceded Kennedy's murder. JFK was a college man
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: three years for senior. There's no indication that things went
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: beyond the dance that night, but I'm willing to bet
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: there was for both of them an instantaneous feeling of complicity.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: Uh Complicity is what sparks romance, and complicity is the
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: only thing they could have allowed a president to drop
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: acid with Mary Pincho in the White House. Now, of course,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: dropping as is not the only thing that they supposedly did.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: I believe they also like to puff on the ganja
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: as they say.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Let's see, I can't blame them for that.
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you A. Cord Meyer was appointed by Angleton uh
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: Man to manage the CIA disinformationation disinformation campaign known as
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Operation Mockingbird. Maybe you've heard of it. This is where
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: they control various aspects of the media, included print, you know, television, radio,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: things like that. And of course we all know how
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: long that went on and probably is still going on
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: to this day.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee it. And there's an interesting threat
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: on the ad forum that says, is Walkingbird still active today?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: You think, yes, it is, just morphed into other spaces.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: For most accounts, Jack courted Mary for a while before
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: she finally assented to having the White House Limo pick
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: her up for a tryst. The fact is she did
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: a sent and this led to a two year romance
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: that looks an awful lot like love Joe. In fact,
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: James Angleton, the same master of black Ops who has
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: seduced away her husband, insisted among JFK's many flings, this
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: was the one that mattered. He ought to have known
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: he was in love with her too. Mary Pinchot was
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: the sort of woman who gave you no choice. After
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: her own murder in October of sixty four, just short
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: of one year later than the presidents, it was Angleton
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: who wound up with her secret diary in his gnarled,
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: nicotine stained hands, allegedly allegedly so. She has killed on
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: the towpath that runs beside the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: one shot point blank to the head, one to the heart,
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: and was found on the ground in the fetal position.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: The DC cop who gently turned her body over, said
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: he'd never seen a more beautiful corpse. Shoa. The attendees
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: at her memorial service where he who's who is, spooks
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: and characters who have since been cast in all manner
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: of conspiracy theories. But the most intriguing and provocative question
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: is not who executed her, but what passed between her
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: and Jack in the private hours of sex and recovery
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: they spent in the White House, many of those hours,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: by her account, under the influence of psychoactive drugs like
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: marijuana and LSD. Likewise, I'm less interested in who may
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: have plotted together in there, or what the two of
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: them may have plotted together and they're blissfully altered state,
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: and how it may have altered the shape of history.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: Timothy Leary is, of course, the primary source for the
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Kennedy LSD stories, an admittedly unreliable narrator. Of course, you know,
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: you know, once two people were dead, there's really nobody
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: left to refute, you know what I'm saying, So who
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: knows if it's true? But Leary says that Mary came
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: to him in his office at Harvard, where he was
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: a respected academic doing a serious research on the brain
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: chemistry of psychedelics, but not yet notorious. She asked him
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: to train her how to guide an acid trip, and
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: said that she had entree to a world of powerful men,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: men with their finger on the nuclear tricker, who, if
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: properly influenced, might come to see a better way to
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: chart the future course of the ship of state. She
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: asked him for his best stuff. Uh, I'd like to
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: think of it as graye A Olsley acid, the same
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: stuff that Gray Slick and out as Huxley were doing.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: She returned to Washington like winged mercury, and delivered the
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: dose to the President, after which, in her telling, they
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: made love while.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Tripping, not the easiest thing to do. No, No, I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: would not know, But.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: He wondered aloud, Ha, what if the Russians did something
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: right now and I am fucked up? She wrote him
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: a fact joint, and they talked about how to seek
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: a newer world, one in which the heroes were peacemakers
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: and manliness was a quality associated as much with restraint
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: as military prowess. In the sixties, hip women were beginning
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: to know that the bigger the gun, the humbler of
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: the personal equipment and slowly but surely, as the story goes,
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: she got to him, not that the inclination wasn't already there.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: He was a deeply intelligent man, but hip enough to
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: know or to be aware of Jack Carrowak and mingus
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: and monk, and cosmopolitan enough to see beyond their nationalism.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: But she brought these qualities out. The acid brought them out,
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: and the historical record unfolds as if in synchronization with
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: their love affair. The peace overture is to cast her
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: and Khrushjev, the Nuclear Test band treaty, the American University speech,
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: the perhaps faithful decision to withdraw sixteen thousand troops from Vietnam.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting that some others have that Mary and
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: her magic seeds were the soul or even principal influence
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: on Jack's evolution. But take her out of the picture,
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: and history may have been different than it was. She
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: was with him on the night of the day the
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: DM brothers were killed and dismembered in Saigon by a
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: CIA operation he'd given tacit approval to and later regretted.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: The Knight may have come to him that he did
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: not have control of the chaok forces within his own government,
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: and that he and his own brother Bobby might like
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: the DMS, end up in a trunk. He called for her.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: What was her advice? I imagine Mary criddling his head
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: in her hands and whispering something like that quote often
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: attributed to Gandhi about quote being the change we wished
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: to see in the world, then kissing his mouth to
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: quiet as fretting, and slowly taking him down to that
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: place where peace is made between a man and a
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: woman Joe. In the life of John F. Kennedy, it
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: may have been the only real peace he ever felt.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: She changed his heart, and he offered the heart to
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: the forces a raid against him. What happened then is
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: overly great surprise. In all such cases, the kings must die.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: Cordmyre never got over his ex wife, that tough Cie
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: operative with a glass eye and wars guarred face, wept
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: publicly throughout her memorial service. Hardened as he was by
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: then indentured to the company as surely as a mafia
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: to his capo. She must have resented him for the
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: man he had become. Many years later, caught in a
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: fleeting moment of transparency, Transparency and maybe remorse. He was
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: asked who he thought had married his late wife, Mary Meyer,
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: and he said, quote, Joe, the same son of a
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: bitches who killed Kennedy and he was in a position
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: to know. As far as the record goes, he never
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: spoke on the subject again.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: So courtys saying, the same people that kill Kennedy killed
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: his wife.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, the same sense of bitches. Yes, God, I
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: found the bitches. Yeah do you have?
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I was going to bring up really quickly because James
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: had a good comment here. Mary was a beautiful lady,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: highly intelligent, interesting woman, and I just want to show
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: a picture real rob this is her. Yes, she's really
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: beautiful woman. Obviously would have of course caught JFK's eye,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: and if she had a husband with one eye who
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: was maybe not sharing her ideological views on anti war
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: being cordmired Sea, I could see ah a friendship developing
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: between her. You know, it makes it makes sense.
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: To me, right, Yes, Now I have a first hand
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: to count here from somebody who was there that day
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: when they found her body and who knew her. Actually,
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: so this is, like I said, a first hand account,
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: and I'm trying to find out who wrote this. I
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: think his name is Lance Morrow, but it says on
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: a perfect day in October. In nineteen sixty four, Mary Pinchermeyer,
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: mistress of John Kennedy, friend of Jackie Kennedy, an ex
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: wife of atop Cia man Cordmyre, was murdered in the
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: rarefied Washington Priescinct of Georgetown. It was half pass noon.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: I was a cub reporter on the Washington Star in
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: the classically scruffy press room at police headquarters. I heard
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: the radio dispatcher direct cruisers twenty five and twenty six,
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: which I recognized immediately as homicide squad cars, to get
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: down to the Cno Canal. I alerted the city desk
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: and drove to Georgetown. Ran to the wall overlooking the
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: canal and saw a body curled up in a ball
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: on the towpath. Two men who had been changing a
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: tire nearby told me they had heard a shot. I
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: cried for help, a second shot, and they had called police.
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: There were no cops with the body yet, but in
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: the distance between the Potomac and the canal, I saw
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: the lines of the police dragnet closing in along the
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: towpath from west and east because I'd played there as
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: a young boy. I knew there was a tunnel under
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: the canal a few hundred yards west of where the
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: body lay. I knew the killer was still at large,
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: and might have also known about it, but the tunnel
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: would be the quickest way for me to get to
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: the other side of the canal to where the body was.
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: So I pushed aside the vines at the tunnel interest
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: and hurried through heart pounding and burst into sunshine. On
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: the other side. I approached the body of Mary Pinchot
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: Meyer and stood over it weirdly and awkwardly alone, as
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: the police were still advancing from either direction. She laid
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: on her side, as if sleeping. She was dressed in
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: a light blue, fluffy anglora sweater, petal pushers, and sneakers.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: She was an artist and had a studio nearby, and
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: she had gone out for her usual lunchtime walk. I
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: saw her neat and almost bloodless bullet hole in her head.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: She looked entirely peaceful, vaguely patrician. She had an air
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: of georgetown. I stood there with her until the police
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: came up. I held a reporter's notebook and the cops
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: from the homicide squad knew me, and they told me
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: to move away. The police found a man in the
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: woods down by the river. His name was Ray Crump Junior,
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: and he was black. His clothes were wet. He had
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: a cut on his hand. He gave the police a
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: couple of stories. He said he'd been fishing and had
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: dropped his fishing pole and calling into the river to
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: retrieve it. He said he had been drinking beer and
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: went to sleep and fell in. The two men who
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: had heard the shots told police that they had seen
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: Crump standing over the body, so he was booked for homicide.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: The police found his jacket and cap in the river.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: His fishing rod was in a closet where he lived
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: on the other side of the city. The murder weapon
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: was never found. It may still be at the bottom
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: of the river. Crump eventually was acquitted, though for lack
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: of evidence. Oh really, yeah, I told you the rested
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: his guy, but they didn't have any evidence on him.
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: I mean none, none, none, And he was acquitted.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: In the initial trial or not an election people or anything.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: Okay, no initial trial okay, interesting, Yeah.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: I wonder who those guys were who were changing that
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: tire that id'd him, right, because you think that'd be
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: you have an eyeball witness, right, that's pretty and a
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: black man in the sixties.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if there's a wall there and they're down on
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: the ground changing a tire, mhm. You know, so maybe
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: the black guy heard a shot and when they were
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: to look and see the white lady. You know, I
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: don't know.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: No, I'm saying it's I agree. I'm saying it's very
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: surprising because you would expect ninety nine percent of those
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: cases he's done, he's gone for life, but yet he's quitting.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: So that's an anomaly that it's sis. Yes, that's what
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: I'm saying.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: He had a very good white lawyer. I don't know.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: But when Mary Mary Meyer died, no one knew about
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: her affair with John Kennedy except his closest confidant, Kenny O'Donnell,
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: and whoever it was that she had told. You know,
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: maybe some of her closest confidants, right, or nobody knew
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: that her ex husband's job job managed in the CIA's
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: clan destined services. In the newspapers, cord Meyer was identified
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: as an author with a very vague government job. Nobody
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: really knew he worked for the CIA. Ah, yeah, it
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: was Ben Bradley who identified the body at the Morgue.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: Then other news intervened. There was a presidential election coming up, Johnson,
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: who had recently signed the Golf of Tonkin Resolution versus
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: Goldwater the warmonger. According to the nineteen sixty four narrative,
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: Khrushchev was deposed, China exploded its first nuclear bomb, and
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: the Warrant report had just come out a month prior.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: But over the years, sensational fragments of the story JFK
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: CIA turned up inevitably conspiracy theories and merged who killed
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: Mary really? Was Ray Crump? Set up by whom? Why?
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of different theories, and there's
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: a lot of different stories, even about the diary which she,
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: you know, supposedly kept. So you could throw this into
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: a world of James Elroy, the Grassy and Old Jim
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Jim Garrison, the Mafia, the Juniataction, are fair play for Cuba,
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: Mongoose and so on. Solution I inserted Mary Meyer by
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: accident into an entirely different story, the primal drama of
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: race in America. The Oliver Stone solution regards Ray Crump
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: as a misdirection. The Richard Wright solution regards the conspiracy
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: as misdirection. The conspiracy theory smacks of the oudable paranoid
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: fantasies of hidden plots by sinister super elders, and the
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: other doesn't cover the possibilities or particularities of this act.
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: At the same time, given what the two witnesses said,
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: and given Crump's alcoholism and mental instability, a criminal record
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: before and after the murder, I believe the jury aired
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: in acquitting him. In retrospect, the case suggests other movies,
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: one from Mary Meyer's youth, like The Intricate Murder Puzzle Laura,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: or else that greatest generation favorite Castle Blanca, whether it's
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: robbing moral choices worked out over endless cigarettes and sacramental booze.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: I grew up watching my mother and a number of
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: women of her generation, which included Mary Meyer born two
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: years before my mother, struggling in different ways with the
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: dilemmas of marriage and children, in power and alcohol and ambition.
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: In a city that was politically charged, noisy with controversy,
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: and at the same time stunningly dull, there was hardly
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: a decent restaurant in town, and not much theater beyond
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: the pedestrian National Theater down by the Treasury Department. The
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: National offered a visiting Bulgarian dance troops dancing dogs, perhaps
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: in an occasional Broadway side show. Sunday afternoon seemed to
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: go on for months. Washington was for medically segregated, ideologically
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: over trial, for militarily over powerful, yet also over anxious, overboothed, overstretched,
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: and over sexed. You saw those traits in Georgetown, which
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: seemed to house half the hierarchy of the State Department,
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: the CIA, and the journalistic established establishment, many of whom
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: gathered for argumentative high policy dinner parties on Sunday nights.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: It's the Sunday Night Drunk, as one regular called it.
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: Men from Wild Bill Donovan's Old at Oss and Alan
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: Dullas A, CIA and other cold warriors out of Groton
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: and Yale and Princeton would drink too much, shout, and
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: might even one or two in the morning joe for
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: one another's throats or wives. They would send a note
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: of apology the next day. The expensively educated had styles
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: of cluelessness and over compensating with cheesemo that would come
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: to grief at the Bay of Pigs. So after her divorce,
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: she had moved to Georgetown became an artist, and she
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: was also a student of the painter Kenneth Nolan and
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: probably sexed him up too, experimented with drugs, in part,
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: it seems under the tutelage of Timothy Leary, who in
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: a book many years later claimed that Mary wanted to
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: turn Camelot into a piece and love acid trip. Mary
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: climbed the backstairs of the White House to have her affair,
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: and then she died on the tow path, a woman
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: interrupted but unhappy irony, the questioning, independent woman will be
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: known after death, not as an artist, but simply as
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: one of Kennedy's girlfriends. Washington was a small town. The
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: cast of characters and Mary's cast of characters overlap. Sometimes.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: I played touch football on Saturday mornings at the playground
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: field at thirty fourth and Q Streets near Mary's house
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: with Bobby Kennedy and his cronies, with Byron Wizzard White
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: and others. JFK sometimes came to watch, leaning on leaning
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: on crutches. So you know, all these people are just
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: co mingling, intermingling with each other. They're all mixed up
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: with each other. Yeah, to the back to the diary.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Can I say something with the cook, Robin, just because
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: we have the best chat in the world. When you
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: said a white lawyer was probably representing Crump within four seconds,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: James Smith's black layer actually, and Paula, I hope I'm
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: not doxing you here. I know is a former district
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: attorney or a DA assistant attorney. So the aquitted guy
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: was represented by one of the first black female criminal attorneys.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: So very interesting. Yes, thank you learned something new. I
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: have some more things highlighted, but I'll get into it after. Yeah,
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: isn't that a great example of how our chap just
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: is probably the smartest chat in the world.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: I would concur with that.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you James and Paula.
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's what we know about that. So back
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: to the damn diary, because that's what all the hulla
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: blues are about. Right right.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: I have here in my hot little hand an FBI
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: memorandum okay from October fourteenth, nineteen sixty four, secret all
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: over it to mister Belmont of the FBI from mister W. C.
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: Sullivan of the FBI, subject John mccoonne, Director of Central
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: Intelligence Agency. Excuse me, reference is made to mister mccoone's
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: meeting with I don't know who on October thirteen, sixty four.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Has to be an FBI guy, right, if it's an
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: FBI document.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. She went two instructions. The liaison
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: agent Richard Hilms, Deputy Director of Plans, had inquired if
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: a meeting be held with Helms and James Angleton on
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: October fourteenth. Helms agreed to meet with me and Supervisor
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: Pappage on ten, fourteen sixty four, and the meeting would
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: be held at ten am on October fifteenth. Helms explained
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: that he and Angleton have been very much involved with
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: matters pursuant to the death and funeral of missus Mary
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: Pincho Meyer. She is the woman who was murdered on
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: the Canal Towpath near Georgetown and is also the former
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: wife of Cordmire. A CIA high official action. If approved,
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: I and Papach will meet with Helms on October fifteenth,
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: nineteen sixty four. Yeah.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I think her death was early October, sometime a few
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: days before that.
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: I mean this went up to like you know, Belmont
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: and Sullivan were like three and four, you know, underneath
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: of Clyde Tolsen. You know, so the FBI was questioning it,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: looking into it. We're aware of it, and we're aware
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: of who she was and who her husband was and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: all of.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: That Jazz probably the affair allegedly too. You probably they
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: you would think they knew about that.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: So from Newsweek March first, nineteen seventy six, we have
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: a story. It's called Kennedy's and it's called more Pillow Talk,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: and it's about Mary Meyer and her story. And when
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: it gets down to the part about the murdoir, mary
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: Meyer went for a walk because she often did, on
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: the towpath, blah blah blah, witness on a bridge, or
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: were struggling with a black man. By the time he
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: reached the scenes, she was dead with two bullet wounds.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: A suspect was tried in a quit a few days
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: after her death. According to Jay Gorley, a freelance writer
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: who helped report The Enquirer's story, a group of Mary's friends,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: including Tony Bradley Angleton and his wife, and Cordmire all
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: went to her home to try to find her telltale
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: diary Angleton had them had come equipped with drills and
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: white gloves from the CIA, and they tapped on walls,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: drilled in floors, poked around in the furnace, dug in
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: the garden, but to no avail. But Tony Bradley found
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: it later and gave it to Angleton, who reportedly destroyed it.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: And this account comes from a guy by the name
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: of James mcc truett, who was the vice president of
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: the Washington Post from nineteen sixty two to sixty four
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: and later in Newsweek bureau chief in Tokyo. He and
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: his wife were very close friends with Miss Myers, missus Myers,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: she told them. He reported that Kennedy had asked her
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: to stay behind after a White House party in December
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: of sixty one, and she'd refused, But a month later
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: the President fronded her again and invited her over for
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: a te a tt and she resisted. He pressed, and
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: she finally agreed. Shortly afterward, a White House limousine driven
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: by a Secret Service agent picked her up and delivered
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: her to the South Portico. This began, said true, at
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: a series of brief encounters, sometimes two or three times
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: a week, between Meyer and JFK that lasted nearly up
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: to the assassination always while Jackie Kennedy was way So
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: there you have one account, okay, that they were all
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: together looking for this diary because they knew something explosive
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: could possibly be in it. Supposedly they didn't find it,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: and supposedly Tony Bradley found it later and turned it
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: over to Angleton who supposedly burned it. Right, that's one story, right,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: but there's others sure there and let me find it now.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Tony Bradley was the woman friend of hers, right.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: Was her sister or her sister? Thank you? Yeah, thank you?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: All right, So again this is a different telling of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: her death. October twelve, sixty four, Mary Pincho Meyer was
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: shot dead as she walked along the Chestabeake and Ohio towpath.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: Henry Wigan's, the car mechanic, was working on a vehicle
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: on Canal Road when he heard a woman's shout out,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: someone helped me, Someone helped me. He then heard two gunshots.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: Then Wiggins ran to the edge of a war that
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: overlooked the towpath. He later told police he saw a
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: quote a black man in a light jacket, dark slacks
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: and a dark cap standing over the body of w
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: white woman. Mary appeared to be killed by a professional
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: hit man. The first bullet was fired at the back
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: of the head, but she did not die straight away,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: so a second shot was fired into the heart. The
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: evidence suggested in both cases the gun was virtually touching
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: Mary's body when it was fired, and the FBI expert
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: testified the dark halos on the skin around both entry
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: wounds suggested they had been fired at close range, possibly
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: point blank. Right now, here's where Peter Janny comes into
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: the picture. The guy who wrote the book Mary's Mosaic,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: Ben Bradley, points out that the first he heard of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: the death of Mary Meyer was when he received a
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: phone call from Wister Janny, a friend of his who
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: worked for the CIA. This Wister Janny is Peter Janny's father.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: My friend Wister Janny called to ask if I had
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: been listening to the radio. It was just after lunch,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: and of course I had not. Next, he asked if
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: I knew where Mary was, and of course I didn't.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: Someone had been murdering on the towpath, he said, and
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: from the radio description it sounded a lot like Mary.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: I raced home Tony was coping by worrying about children,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: hers and Mary's, and about her mother, who was seventy
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: one years old and living alone in New York. We
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: asked Anne Chamberlain, Mary's college roommate, to go to New
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: York and bring Ruth to us their mother. When Anne
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: was well on her way, I was delegated to break
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: the news to Brusly on telephone. I can't remember what
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: that conversation. I was so scared for her, my family,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: and for what was happening in our world. Next, the
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: police told us someone would have to identify Mary's body
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: in the morgue, and since Mary and her husband, Cordmyer
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: were separated, I drew that straw too. It's according to
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: Ben Bradley, so to get to the Trutt thing right.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: So that night Antoinette to pin show Bradley, Tony Bradley
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: and received a telephone call from Mary's best friend, Anne Truett,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: who was an artist then living in Tokyo. She told
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: her that it was quote a matter of some urgency
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: that she found Mary's diary before the police got to
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: it and her private life became a matter of public record.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: Mary had apparently told Anne that it quote, if anything
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: ever happens to me, you must take possession of my
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: private diary. Ben Bradley explains in his book called The
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: Good Life in nineteen ninety five, for that quote, we
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: didn't start looking until the next morning, when Tony and
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: I walked around the corner a few blocks excuse me,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: to Mary's house. It was locked, as we expected, but
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: when we got inside we found our buddy Jim Angleton,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 4: and to our complete surprise, he told us he too
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: was looking for Mary's diary. James Jesus Angelsson later claimed
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: that he had also received a phone call from Anne Truett.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: His wife, Cecily Dolton want Angleton, confirmed this in an
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: interview given to Nina Burley. However, an article by Ron
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: Rosenbaum and Phelipe Noble in the New York in The
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: New Times on July ninth, seventy six gives a different
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: version of events, with the Angleton's arriving at Mary's house
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: that evening to attend a poetry reading and that at
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: this stage they did not know she was dead. Allegedly,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: Cecily Angleton called her husband at work to ask him
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: to check on a radio report she had heard that
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: a woman had been shot on the old Chesapeake and
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: Ohio towpath in Georgetown. Walking along that towpath, which ran
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: near her home, was Mary Meyers's favorite exercise, and Cicely,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: knowing her routine, was worried. Angleton dismissed his wife's worry,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: pointing out that there was no reason to suppose to
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: suppose that the dead woman was Mary. Many people walked
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 4: along that towpath, and when the Angletons arrived at Meyer's
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: house that evening, she was not home. A phone call
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: to her answering service proved that Cecily's anxiety had not
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: been misplaced, and their friend had been murdered that afternoon.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: The bullet in her chest severed the a order which
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: carries blood to the heart, and came out of her
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: chest on the other side. The evidence suggest in both
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: cases the gun was virtually touching Mary's body when it
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: was fired point blank. Blah blah blah blah blah. Now,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: there's of course stories about this diary that she had
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: written in there, some things about, you know, her tryst
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: with Kennedy, her taking LSD with Kennedy. Apparently Angleton was
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: given a box the contents of the box were given
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: to Angleton, who claimed to have burned the diary without
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: reading it. Angleton later admitted that Mary recorded in her
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: diary that she had taken LSD with Kennedy before they
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: made love. Does that makes sense that he says they
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: didn't read it, But okay, of course you can read
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: it Jesus. So then this is what Ben Bradley has
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 4: to say about things. His surprising confession was that he
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: had lied during the trial of Raymond Crump, the man
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: accused of killing Mary Pincho Meyer. Bradley admitted in the
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 4: book that he had searched for Meyer's diary with Angleton.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: He says, quote, We Bradley and his wife asked him
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: Angleton how he'd gotten into the house, and he kind
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: of looked away and shuffled his feet. Later we learned
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: that one of Jim's nicknames inside the agency was a locksmith,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 4: and then he was known as a man who could
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: pick his way into any house in town. We felt
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: his presence there was odd, to say the least, but
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: took him in his word, and with him we searched
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: Mary's house thoroughly without success. We found no diary. Later
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: that day we realized that we hadn't looked for the
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: diary in Mary's studio, which was directly across a dead
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: end driveway from the garden behind our house. We had
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: no key, but I few I got a few tools
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: to remove the simple padlock, and we walked towards the studio,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: only to run into Angleton again, this time actually in
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: the process of picking the padlock on the studio. He
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: would have been red faced if his face could have
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: gotten red, and he almost left without saying a word.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: But I unscrewed the hinge and we entered the studio. However,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: according to Ron Rosenbaum, where he interviewed Angleton, he described
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: Bradley as a liar and denied he'd ever been in
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: Mary's studio. Bradley claims that his wife actually found the
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: diary in a later search. Much has been written about
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: this diary, most of it wrong, since its existence was
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: first reported. Tony took it to our house and we
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: read it later that night. It was small, only about
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: six inches by eight inches, with fifty or sixty pages,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: most of them filled with paint swatches and descriptions of
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: how the colors were created and what they were created for.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: On a few pages maybe ten, in all the same handwriting,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: but different pen Phrases described a love affair, and after
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: reading only a few phrases, it was clear that the
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: lover had been the President of the United States, though
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: his name was never mentioned. To say we were stunned
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: doesn't begin to describe reactions. Tony especially felt betrayed, both
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: by Kennedy and by her sister Mary. It has been
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: claimed that the Bradley's also found love letters sent by
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: Kennedy to Meyer, and these were destroyed. The following day,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: her sister Antoinette Pincho Bradley gave the diary to Angleton
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 4: and told him to destroy it. But it turned out
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: that Angleton did not destroy the document, for whatever perverse
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: or perverted reasons. We didn't learn this until some years later,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: when Tony asked him point blank how he had destroyed it.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: When he admitted that he hadn't destroyed it, she demanded
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 4: that he give it back, and when he did, she
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: burned it with a friend as a witness. None of
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: us has any idea what Angleton did with the diary
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: while it was in his possession, nor failed to follow
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: Mary and Tony's instructions.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry sir, who burned the diary again. I just
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: want to double take that after Angleton got it, his
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: wife earned it with someone else or what was it.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry I didn't catch it.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: No. Her sister asked Angleton how he destroyed the diary,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: and he told her I didn't actually destroy the diary.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: So then she at that point she asked for it back.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: But this is years later, so he gave it back
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: to her, and then she allegedly destroyed it. Right, okay,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: but nobody knows what he did with it while he
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: had it.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: I see, thank you for clearing that.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: After the publication of the book The Good Life, Cecily
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: do Tremont Angleton and this is ninety five. This is
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: like twenty years after Engleton's death, but his wife's still alive.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: And Anne Truett wrote a letter to the New York
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: Times Book Review to correct what, in our opinion, is
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: an error in Bradley's autobiography. This error occurs in mister
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: Bradley's account of the discovery and disposition of Mary Pincheck
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: Meyer's personal diary. The fact is that Mary Meyer asked
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: Ann Truett to make sure that in the event of
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: anything happening to her while Anne was in Japan. James
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: Angleton take this diary into his safe keeping when she
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: learned that Mary had been killed, and Truett telephoned person
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: to person from Tokyo for James Angleton. She found him
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: at mister Bradley's house, where Angleton and his wife Cecily
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: have been asked to come following the murder. In the
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: phone call relating Mary Meyer's specific instructions, and Truett told
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: Angleton for the first time that there was a diary
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: and in accordance with Meyer's explicit request, and Truett asked
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: Angleton personally to search for and take charge of the diary.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 4: This is, of course twenty years this is ninety five.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: This is twenty years after Angleton's even dead. So in
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: twenty eleven the story continues. The Washington Post publishes a
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 4: letter from Angleton's children. They also questioned the account provide
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 4: a by Ben Bradley. They say and Trewett, a friend
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 4: of Tony Bradley, and Bradley's sister Mary Meyer, were abroad
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: when Meyer was killed in the district. Truett called Bradley
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: and said that Meyer had asked her to request it
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: Angleton retrieve mid or to retrieve and burn certain pages
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: of her diary if anything happened to her. James and
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: Cicely Angleton were with Ben and Tony Bradley at the
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: Bradley's house when Tony Bradley received a call Cecily. Our
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: mother told her daughter Guru sang kat Colsa. We all
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 4: went to Mary's house together. She said there was no
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: break in because the Bradley's had a key. The diary
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: was not found at that time, and later Tony Bradley
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: found it and gave it to Angleton. He burned the
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: pages that Meyer had asked to be burned and put
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: the rest in his safe. Years later he gave the
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: rest of the diary back to Bradley at her request,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: and she burned the rest of it. So who in
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: the hell knows bro I don't know. And then at
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 4: the end of the end there's something titled Cord Meyer's Confession.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 4: A guy by the name of C. David Hayman began
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: writing a book that was eventually published as Georgetown Ladies
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: Social Club in two thousand and four. The book concerned
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: the group of women that had been part of the
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: group that existed in the fifties and sixties in Georgetown.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: This included Mary Pincho Meyer, and Hayman became interested in
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 4: her death, and in February two thousand and one he
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 4: requested an interview with Cord Meyer, who at this time
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 4: was himself dying of lymphoma. Hayman asked Meyer if he
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 4: had told the truth in his book Facing Reality from
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 4: World Federalism to the CIA in nineteen eighty. He says, quote,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: I was satisfied by the conclusions of the police investigation
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: that Mary had been the victim of a sexually motivated
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 4: assault by a single individual, and that she had been
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: killed in her struggle to escape. Meyer replied, my father
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: died of a heart attack the same year Mary was killed.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: He whispered, it was a bad time, and what could
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: he say about Mary Meyer, who had committed to to
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 4: heinous crime. And that's when he said, the same sons
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: of bitches that killed John F. Kennedy. He hissed. But
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 4: now some people supposed that possibly, you know, Cordmyre was
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: still in love with Mary Meyer. He found out about
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: the trysts with jfk got immensely pissed off and rigged
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 4: up her death right right.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: And if you take it in the context of listen,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: they were lovers, they something happened, they got divorced. This
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: dude has one eye and now the smoke show of
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: your ex wife is dating, you know, the most handsome,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: desirable guy in the world. You could see some jealousy
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: occurring there, especially if you're high up as Cord was.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: And see and it's also thrown out there that James
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: Angleton was also in love with Mary Meyer.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe from afar right, and he's drunkend.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 4: Maybe, but you know how creepy dudes are, you know,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, he's in do enough with him to be
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: named the godfather of their children. True and supposedly she
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: said explicitly that if anything happens to her to get
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 4: the diary to Angleton, do.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: You think Angleton would be there personally picking locks?
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, I don't know if he was picking locks.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 4: I'm sure he had a key to her place. Okay,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 4: that's my guess, mhm, giving one. He probably had a
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 4: key to her place. If you know what I'm saying,
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: He's probably going there and sniffer panties when she wasn't
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: there or something, and then sneak back out. Yeah.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: In case I need to take care of the god kids.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 4: Mh. Yeah. But anyway, that's the story of Mary Pinchelmeyer.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: We're not saying she's involved in the in the death
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: of the JFK directly, Uh, you know, indirectly, who knows.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: You know, maybe he found out about this affair and
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 4: she got pissed because they were friends.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Mhm.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 4: And then you know, maybe Jackie orchestrated this. Uh, who knows.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna push back a little bit on that because
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 4: I'm just throwing the theories that are out there out
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: there that.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, but Jackie was well aware of Jack's infidelities, right,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not sure even if it is a
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: former friend that she would go to that length.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: But again, current friend, you never know that thing. That's
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 4: the kicker. I'm sorry say that current friend. You know,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: normally that ship is off limits. You know, if you
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: have if you have friend groups, you know where you
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: have husband and wife friend groups. Yeah, like it's one
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: thing to bang some horror that nobody knows that lives
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: in halfway across the country every once in a while. Yeah,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: But when you're it's it's one of your best friends
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: and it's all part of your little friend group that
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: could fuck things up.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Man. That's a no no, that's no no.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 4: That's what we call shitting where you eat. But yes,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 4: you don't do that.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, And you have to think you know,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: it's October. I think she died in October sixty four.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: It's pretty close to when the warrant commission came out
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: within a month or two. In either direction, it could
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: be possible that they didn't want something to get out.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It just could have been cord Meyer's
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: jealousy too and had nothing to do with you.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: Or maybe Angleton thought that Cordmyer might have told her something. Yeah,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: I mean loose lips, think ships, Joe. I mean, there's
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 4: so many suspects, so many ways this could go. Yeah,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: such intrigue and mystery, and the company's balls deep in
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 4: this thing, you know what I mean.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: And Angleton's drunk all the time. This woman's tripping all
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: the time, giving acid to everyone in Georgetown. I mean,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: you never know. It doesn't seem to me that it
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: would be so random, especially the fact that you said
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: that this was during her normal lunchtime walk. Seemed to
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: be part of a.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 4: Routine, right, it would be something that people knew that
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 4: she did, yes, which is a big red flag.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so wow, I don't either. But that's that's why
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: we leave it up to you, you smart ladies and
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: gentlemen in the chat, to make up your own minds.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: All right, So before we kick it over to Joe
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: and Gary Underhill, let's take a little break and sell
• 1:22:28
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  Speaker 1: you just showed the character.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, yes, our our lovely.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: What's called action figure.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 4: Our action figures. Yeah, you actually have two scooters in.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: That one, I know the other one work band aids.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not even the worst picture, don't. I don't
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 4: know why I didn't use the other one.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I know why, because it has a says Joe Burrelly.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 4: The you know, I don't care. I's still I still no,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: I thankfully our grateful host the site does not pick
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: that up as yeah yet. But we're also saying it
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: completely wrong, and I'm calling myself that.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 4: So yeah, we're self deprecating here, Yes.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, but yeah, fascinating ship Rob. I have a couple
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: of comments here that I starred. I want to welcome
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: Craig Mallory, first time joining in live.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 4: What's up, Craig? It might be Craig and Mallory. Oh
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 4: it could be. Yes.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: Alpha sixty six is here a little late, better late
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: than ever? Hello, Mike getting drunk with James Angleton. I
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: mean I would I would pay a lot of money
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: to do that, to go back in the day and
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: do that, because that would be fun as.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 4: Hell doing acid with James Angleton.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean that's that's priceless, bro. James Court lost
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: an eye on Ebo Jima. He wasn't the Pacific. I
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: read it was the Battle of Guam. But at the
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: end of the day, there are both islands in the
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: Far East.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: So yeah, he flew back from Hawaii wherever he was
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 4: before that where he may have lost an eye, I
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 4: don't know.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perpetual concepts, Happy Friday, all Triple B and the job.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 4: How are you?
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: Of course one of our superspies. James also said Holo
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: Cord blamed Mary for the death of their son, and yeah,
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: we talked about that, that accident, and yeah, that will
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: blow up a relationship, especially if you have one eye on.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: The girl is dope as hell.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very sad age too. I mean the kid
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 4: was nine years old, so it wasn't like it was
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: just born or something, or it wasn't grown. It was
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: nine years old, which is a Horrorboy he used to
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 4: lose I mean, at any age is a horrib Boys
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: lose your son or your daughter, but yeah, nine is
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: horrible because you've had nine good years with him. The
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 4: starting to grow into that person that they're going to
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 4: be and then that's it.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, things like that will break up a marriage.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: I mean even if you have a strong relationship. I
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: mean that that type of tragedy is sometimes unrecoverable. James,
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: at first glance, it seems it's a straightforward criminal case.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: He's talking about the death of Mary pinchel Meyer. But boy,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: some of the circumstances, like the timing of witnesses, the couple,
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: the jogger, plus's background make it highly suspect.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: I agree, yeah, but I mean, why why are you
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: going to try and rape a white lady and Georgetown
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 4: she says, no, you just kill her. I mean, what
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: kind of sense does that make?
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: It doesn't add up to me from the surface. James
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: also said Cord emerged for More War two committed to
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: world peace, but later evolved into a hardcore Cold warrior.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: And again another possible reason of why their their marriage
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: could have, you know, kind of went different.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 4: Ways, you know, converted by Dulls and Angleton.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: Yet yeah, yeah, for sure, one percent. I could definitely
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: see that happening. According to many, Paul the Mike common
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: of the night here. According to many, her finest asset
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: was best appreciated when walking away. I had no judge
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: of such things. She had a nice ass.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: Rob Well, yeah, I like Kramer Seinfeld. I'm an ass man.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 4: All good.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for that, Paul Uh Tiny angletons prove it, tiny,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: says Angleton, is Langley's biggest failure. Failure. The mess he
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: created left the counterintelligence unit so screwed they had to
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: practically burnt to the ground and start over facts. Yeah,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: he did run it kind of into the ground. Yeah, sure,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: but they.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 4: Gave him the keys to the castle and that's what
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 4: he did with it. And yeah, they had to dig
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 4: themselves out of a big, big hole.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, James also Colby, William Colby, who fired James Jesus
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: Angleton came to an interesting and also yes, one of
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: the more subs ones on my list.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 4: That is for sure, we could have easily thrown this
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 4: into our suspicious CS.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: We should have. Not that we have that much time left,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: because I have thirty rogers here. What's up, buddy?
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 4: Yes, yar Old Oswald in the house.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: Mhm, and U nk is here? What's up?
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: Bud uh.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: Sullivan was accidentally shot just before he was to testify
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: Allah Rosselli, Allah de morn Shield Alagi and Conna, et cetera,
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: et cetera.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 4: Et cetera. Solomon with the FBI.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, I think that's what he's talking about,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: because Sullivan comes up on a lot of documents that
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: we've studied.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, w C. Sullivan.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know much about his death actually anything,
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: but maybe we'll look into that in the future room.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 4: Maybe next Wednesday, Maybe next Wednesday. I never know.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: All right, So a lot of good comments from the
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: chat here. I know, I spent a couple of minutes.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: On that, but a couple others real quick. So sure
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: Lee is up in the house. Oh Lee Hell comes
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 4: to play the Bloody Benders, and Colleen has a burning
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: question why did Joe have legs but Triple B doesn't
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: leg Smiring minds want to know.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, oh, I see, I see, I see as you see.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 4: It's a big fella, Colleen. They couldn't fit me in,
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 4: all of me in the package.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: But if you know what I'm saying, you know, also,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: Rob sometimes Ai, how you could tell us Ai is
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: that it messes up the fingers, right, there'll be six
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: fingers or things something like that.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 4: Uh, dude, this has got a lot better because there's
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 4: like the one on the rights screwed up because they
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 4: put the scooter in her twice, right right, But on mine,
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 4: I have no legs, yeah, because those are actually camo shorts,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 4: and you know, there may or may not have been
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 4: something picking out the bottom. I don't know, that's why
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 4: they cut it off. I don't know. It's hard to tell.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 4: They disspelled Stone Tuble Pilots correctly, though, so I was
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 4: happy about that. That's all you can asked for.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: Oh man, that's funny.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: I'm actually seven foot three, Colleen, I have very long legs.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and James with a good comment. Sullivan ran co
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: intel pro for the FBI.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so they may have smelled a dirty rat.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 4: That's why they wanted to meet with these guys a CIA, like,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 4: did yall we all? Did y'all have anything to do
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 4: with this shit? You know?
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: And Turn is there? What's up?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: Buddy?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: He said? Stone Temple Pilots were awesome. I saw them
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: live on the second album tour.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 4: Tell you what real quick? As an aside, I set
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 4: that up for you, bo bro, Okay, I believe it
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: was two thousand and one or two thousand and two.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 4: The best concert that I was at was in Latrobe, Pennsylvania,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 4: which is not that far away from me. They had
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 4: a rock festival, you know for the beer up on
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 4: the troid. I think it was rolling rock, but they
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 4: had like a festival. Stone Table Pilots played there. It
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 4: is on YouTube. It's an hour long set and they
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 4: fucking ripped it from beginning to end, and they were
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 4: on point, like one of them. They had just gotten
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 4: back together after breaking up, they had just put out
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 4: a new album and they were on fire. So if
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 4: you can find that concert, it's a good hour. Wheeland
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 4: is on it from the beginning to the end. It's
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 4: it's great. Just the recommendation from your uncle, Rob.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: If they find it, do you happen? Should they email
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: the Long Gaman podcast.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 4: If you can't find it, holler at me. I'll send
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 4: you a link. But just just google. You know, Stone
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 4: Table Pilots, Latrobe. It should pop right.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: Up, nice, nice cool cool so and continuing with our
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: theme and Rob, I never want to hear you say
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: I take up too much time again, and hour and
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: thirty six minutes into this, I'm just missing here.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 4: This is the position you put me in every week,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 4: Joe I come in and I'm like, damn, Joe's already
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 4: taking up an Aaron twenty two minutes.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: It happens. It does happen. And the funny part about
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: what I'm going to talk about, which is Gary Underhill,
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: is that it was initially set to be my topic
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday and an hour and a half and I
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't think I have time for this,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: So an hour and a half and half and six
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: minutes and now I will try my best. But obviously,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: Gary Hunter Underhill is a story that has a mainstream
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: I think you would say, post the document release right
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: last month, it was. It was big and a lot,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: it was getting a lot of news coverage, and of course,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: people like us who have studied the subject are aware
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: that it has been around for a very long time.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: But I have a forty second clip here of an
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: example of what the mainstream media.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 6: The day after the assassination is.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: Saying about the Underhill story. And I'm going to go
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: into some of it and let you guys judge for yourself.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 6: The day after the assassination, CIA agent Gary Underhill quote
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 6: left Washington in a hurry late in the evening he
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 6: showed up at the home of friends in New Jersey.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 6: He was very agitated. A small click within the CIA
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 6: was responsible for the assassination, he confided, and he was
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 6: afraid for his life. He was afraid he would probably
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 6: have to leave the country. Less than six months months later,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 6: Underhill was found shot to death in his Washington apartment.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 6: The coroner quickly ruled that a suicide. I'm no expert,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 6: but to me, that would be a conspiracy right there.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 6: That would suggest that our own CIA played a role
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 6: in killing our thirty fifth.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: A little embellishing there here from the mainstream media here. So,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: Gary Underhill, what was up with the skuafuza?
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 4: Huh?
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I had, of course kind of known the basics,
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: but was kind of refreshed. But this is the document
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: that was released in the recent twenty twenty five releases
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: about Gary Underhill. And we have to pay very close
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: attention here to the wording of this. Okay, the wording
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: This is a CIA document of July nineteen sixty seven,
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: but the subject is ramparts. The magazine John Garrett Underhill
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: Junior and Samuel Cummings and inter Amco Ramparts of June
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: sixty seventh, Volume five, number twelve, page twenty twenty nine
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: contains the following passages about subjects. So it's important to
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: note that this is a CIA document addressing the article right,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: so they are now quoting the article. They are not
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: saying this is exactly what happened, but that's kind of
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: how the mainstream media has portrayed it.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 4: Quote.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: The day after the assassination, Gary Underhill left Washington in
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: a hurry. Late in the evening. He showed up at
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: his home of friends in New Jersey. He was very agitated.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: A small clique within the CIA was responsible for the assassination,
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: he confided, and he was afraid for his life and
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: probably would have to leave the country. Less than six
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: months later, Underhill was found shot to death in his
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: Washington apartment. The coroner ruled it a suicide. Jay Garrett
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: or Gary Underhill had been an intelligence agent during World
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: War Two and was a recognized authority on limited warfare
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: and small arms. A researcher and writer on military affairs,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: He was on a first name basis with many of
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: the top brass and the Pentagon. He was also on
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: intimate terms with a number of high ranking CIA officials.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: He was one of the agencies quote un people, un
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: dash people who performed special assignments. At one time he
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: had been a friend of Samuel Cummings of inter Armco,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: the arms broker that numbers among its customers the CIA,
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: and ironically climbed Sporting Goods of Chicago from once the
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: mail order Carkano allegedly was purchased by Oswald. So again
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: this is just a document quoting the article, and it
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: goes on to say the friends whom Underhill visited say
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: he was sober but badly shook. They say he attributed
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: the Kennedy murder to CI CLICK, which was carrying on
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: a lucrative racket in gun running, narcotics and other contraband,
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: and manipulating political intrigue to serve his own ends. Kennedy
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: supposedly got wind that something was going on and was
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: killed before he could quote blow the whistle on it
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: end quote. Although the friends had always known Underhill to
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: be perfectly rational and objective, they at first didn't take
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: his account seriously. Quote. I think the main reason was
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: explaining to the husband that we couldn't believe that the
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: CIA could contain a corrupt element. Every bit as ruthless
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: and more efficient than the mafia. The verdict of suicide
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: in Underhill's death is by no means convincing. His body
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: was found by a writing collaborator, Asher Burns of the
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: New Republic. He had been shot behind the left ear
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: and an automatic pistol was under his left side, odd
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: says Burns, because Underhill was right handed. Burns thinks the
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: pistol was fitted with a silencer, and the occupants of
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: the apartment could not recall hearing a shot. Underhill obviously
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: had been dead for several days. The article ends, Underhill's
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: chilling story is hardly implausible as a spy apparatus. The
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: CIA is honeycombed with self contained clicks operating without any
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: real central control. So that is the document that has
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: been around for a long time. And I'm going to
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: bring up my little not so fancy power point here
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: and show you exactly what part of this document from
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: the most recent release last month was redacted and won
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: a surprise you rob has to do with agency funds.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: So if you look on the left here it says
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: fifty eight this is about Cummings issued sole ownership to
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: enter Armco. And on the right side what was redacted,
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: and Agency audit established the network of these companies around
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: two hundred and nineteen thousand dollars. So again financial things.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think inter Armco was also one of the
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 4: companies that would was buying up these shitty rifles post
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 4: World War Two and then selling them to places like
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 4: Klient sporting goods.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: That would make sense, That would make sense, yeah for sure.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: So on the left side here you're going to see
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: under the two hundred and fifty thousand the couple the
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: two or three lines after that is redacted on the
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: right and the most recent release. These items were to
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: remain property of the CIA and their cost was to
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: be returned to the agency after they were sold. Aka
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: inter Armco was a CIA funded company. That's what they're redacting.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: Nothing to do with Underhill, per se. And on the
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: left side, this contact is still maintained until recently. The
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: personal purpose was to dispose of arms redacted on the
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: right side, and the CIA made a sizeable profit on
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: these transactions. So that again is a part that's reactive.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: Arms dealing by the CIA.
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: Shocker, Yes, And that is what Underhill was involved with.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: He was involved with arms dealing and that's how this
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: story kind of starts. So it starts, so let me
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: just back them for a second. The day after the assassination,
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: Underhill goes from Washington, d c. To New York, New
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: Jersey to his friends, the Fitzsimmons, you know, frantic saying,
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: you know, this is a little more than twenty four
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: hours after the assassination, saying the CIA and some click
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: was involved in it. He ended up staying that's very interesting.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: The Fitzsimmons is his wife who received him at the door,
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: and his husband, her husband who was asleep at the time,
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: who she didn't actually end up waking up once he
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: came in. He came in, he kind of spout some
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: kind of random stuff and lest well, that's definitely what
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: the documents seemed to say that he was. But again,
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: we can one hundred percent trust it, so we'll let
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: the audience make up their mind. But defense simmonses would
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: not put him up at their home, and he therefore
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: and he then left and they never saw him again
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: from that point on, from November twenty third, nineteen sixty three,
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: to when he died on May eighth, nineteen sixty four.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: So she were talking six plus months after, not even
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: six months after, yeah, yeah, yeah, close close to that.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: He did not write anything about the assassination. He didn't
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: approach the FBI or the War Commission or any other agency.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: And on May eighth, sixty four, he was found in
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: his apartment unconscious, you know, like by his writer friend
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: and an unnamed medical student, bullet wound in his head.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the suspicion here comes
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: from the fact that this writer said that he was
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: right handed and the bullet wound was behind his left ear,
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: So that's I think the basis of most of this consp.
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 4: Gun was also in his left hand, and he was
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 4: laying on his left hand with the gun in it.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: Well, could he have fallen on it?
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm just saying it just makes things
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 4: a little bit more sus right, right, right, you know
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 4: when you compare the things to like, who was the
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 4: guy I believe his name was Gary, Also Gary Webb,
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 4: the guy that uncovered like the CIA crack uh thing
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 4: in l a oh, And he allegedly shot himself twice
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 4: in the head to commit suicide. He had too much
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 4: shot wounds to the head and they ruled it a suicide.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or the guy, the Clinton guy, Vince Foster that
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: had the shotgun.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just the heart that was so filled with suspicious
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 4: CI link deaths. I mean there's an m O to
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 4: all these things.
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So at first.
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 4: Something happens to me. Come come down here to Virginia
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 4: and get my diary. Please, it's very important.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: I will, I will, I will. We'll have all your
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: secrets of the assassination in it.
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 4: Come get my laptop. That's the modest.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: Day, right, Can I take out? Can I take some
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: of the merch? Yeah, okay, definitely the kiddie to look after.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, somebody's gonna feed the kiddy.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: She quiet tonight.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 4: Yes, she's feeling much better. She hasn't peaked once today.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 4: That's good. That's good. Hell are you so?
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: Underhill died in May of nineteen fifty four, but the
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: drama starts about three years after, in June of sixty seven,
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: when Ramparts magazine runs this article about Underhill, and this
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: is a little snippet from it. Day after assassination, Gary
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: Underhill left Washington in a hurry. Late in the evening.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: He showed up at friends in New Jersey, very agitated,
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: said small clique within the CIA was responsible for the assassination.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: He confided, and was afraid for his life and would
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: have to leave the country. I said that he had
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: been an intelligence agent during World War Two, was a
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: recognized authority on limited warfare and small arms, a researcher
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: and writer on military affairs. He was on Oh, I
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: already read that the verdict. Did I read that too?
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: It's all a blur. Yeah, I think I did read
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: most of this. So it started off with an article
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: in Ramparts June is sixty seven, and three months later,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: in October sixty seven, Garrison picks up his story and
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: talks about it to his interview with Playboy magazine. And
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: by the way, I got a lot of this, Rob
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: and a lot of you might roll your eyes. Fred
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: Litwin wrote a good article on Underhill that that includes
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of the documents I'm going to be showing.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm showing both sides.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 4: But yeah, great guy, guy he does.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: He picked up a lot of correspondents from Underhill's friends
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: that I'm gonna get into shortly. In the days and
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: months after this, they wrote House of Representatives, congress Men,
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: and there was this whole you know, inquiry that went
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: into it. And then of course, as we know, rob
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: SA gets word of this, and what do they do.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: They send emails to each other and be like, what's
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: up with this? Did we employ this guy? Because they
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: don't really.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 4: Know yeahs At and Tam, we don't know anything about this.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll see that.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 4: But somebody said what.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so actually I'm going to kind of skip this. Uh, actually,
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: do you lend credence to the charges of a former
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: CIA agent, Jay Garrett Underhill, that there was a conspiracy
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 1: within the CIA to assassinate Kennedy? Garrison. I've become familiar
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: with the case of Gary Underhill, and I've been able
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: to ascertain that he was not the type of man
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: to make wild or unsubstantiated charges. Underhill was an intelligence
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: agent in World War Two and expert of military affairs
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah. He wasn't a full time CIA agent,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: but he occasionally performed special assignments for the agency. Several
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: days after the president's assassination, Underhill appeared at the home
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: of friends in New Jersey, apparently badly shaken, and charged
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: that Kennedy was killed by a small group within CIA.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: Do you believe Underhill was murdered to silence him. Garrison says,
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: I don't believe it, and I don't disbelieve it. Isn't
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: that a prosecutor's answer.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 4: There very Garrison this answer. Yeah.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: All I know is that Garrison continues that witnesses with
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: vital evidence in this case are certainly bad insurance risks
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: in the absence of further and much more conclusive evidence
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: to the contrary. However, we must assume that the plotters
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: were acting on their own rather than on CIA orders
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: when they killed the president. As far as we have
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: been able to determine, they were not in the pay
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: of the CIA at the time of the assassination, and
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons the president was murdered.
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: I'll explain later.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 4: What I mean by that.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: But the CIA could not face up to the American
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: people and admit that its former employees had conspired to
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: assassinate the president. So from the moment Kennedy's heart stopped beating,
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: the agency attempted to sweep the whole conspiracy under the rug.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: The CIS had spared neither time nor the tax Beyer's money,
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: and its efforts to hide the truth about the assassination
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: from the US people. And you know, that's a little
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: snippet from his famous, very famous interview with Playboy magazine
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: that kind of blew everything up. And this, also from
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: Litwind's article, is a screenshot of his death certificate. So
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: he went back to d C right after he was
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: up north and about six months later a gunshot wound
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: to the head and brain and describe how injury occurred,
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: shot self in head with automatic epistol. Pretty straightforward there.
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: So.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: But I didn't know this, but Larry Hancock had written
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: a couple paragraphs about him in his book. Someone would
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: have talked in a chapter called the Loose Ends, which
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: is very interesting. Let me see where I'm here, would
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 1: have talked, Yes, a small click within the CIA. This
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: paragraph starts when Gary Underhill arrived at his friends Robert
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: and Charlene fitzsimmons home in New York City. I tend
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: to believe Larry was New York City, not New Jersey,
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't really matter. It was late, he was
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: excited and scared the couple, the Fitzsimmonses were preparing for
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: a trip to Europe, and Robert was al ready to sleep.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: Underhill spoke with Charlene at length while she continued packing
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: for the trip. Underhill was concerned because he had become
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: aware of small clique. We read that these individuals had
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: far Eastern connections. Arctics were mentioned, and supposedly the clique
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: believed that these individuals had been involved with JFK's He
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: felt that JFK become aware of their dealings and was
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: about to move against them in some fashion. He also
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: believed the members of the clique knew that Underhill was
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: aware of their dealings and that his own life could
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: well be in jeopardy. Underhill fled Washington if You're for
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: his life, avoiding his normal haunts at the Harvard Club Inc.
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: At the time Fitzgibbons's the Fitzsimmonses were totally baffled by
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: Underhill's remarks. Later, they related Underhill's remarks to certain other
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: close friends, and in nineteen sixty six, when concerns about
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: possible Kennedy conspiracy began to be elevated due to the
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: Garrison investigation, one of these friends began his own inquiry
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: and recontacted them At that point, Robert Fitzsimmons remarked that
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: the reason they had really not taken Underhill seriously was
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: that they couldn't believe this. He I could do it,
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: uh right, right right, And then he goes talks about
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: how his initial remarks were or story debuted in Ramparts
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: magazine and then later in Garrison and later a follow
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: up and Ramports Magazine. Although not addressed by the FBI
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: investigation or the War Report, Underhill's remarks did come to
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: some attention of the HCA, and some attempt was made
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: to determine his possible source of information, given Underhill's interest
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: in tracking arms shipments. One name strongly considered by HSCA
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: investigators with that was that of Mitch Warbel, an individual
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: reportedly involved with both arm sales and Cuban affairs and
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: silencers yes and silence Yeah, good point he might have
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: gotten from his silencer from Warbel himself. What did Underhill
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: know is the next pair of title. Underhill's friends had
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: the impression that he offered no direct knowledge of the
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: conspiracy against John Kennedy. He had not heard any specific
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: chatter or rumor or names. They had felt that his
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: reaction was a response to the initial media coverage of
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: the assassination, plus his own special insights into the activities
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: of the clique, which he described. Their initial skepticism had
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: a good deal to do with their unwillingness to accept
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: that this could really happen. Unfortunately, we have no detailed
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: information on Underhill's own researches into nineteen sixty three. However,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: we do know that one of his errors of study
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: and expertise was international arms shipments. His friends relate that
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: he was constantly tracking shipments of arms and contraband, and
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: clearly he was connected to many of the major sources
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: and agents of such arm shipments, inter Amco only being
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: one example. We also know that he was interested in
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: Cuban military issues in nineteen sixty three, specifically the issue
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: of Russian missiles in Cuba. Where this interest had led
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: him and whom he may have contacted. We have no
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: idea the other clues we do have, or that Underhill
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: felt that the clique had far Eastern connections, and there
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: were suggestions drugs may have been involved with some of
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: the gun running. Probably definance bringing up that sort of
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: scenario in nineteen sixty three would have certainly sounded quote
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: wild and preposterous, as preposterous as the fact that a
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: clique might have been able to manipulate certain political intrigues
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: for their own interest. We can't present any conclusive proof
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: that Underhill's clique actually had any direct connection to the
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: assassination of the president. Underhill only guessed that based on
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: his knowledge of its agendas and capabilities. Unfortunately, his friends
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: were not prepared to solicit or record any details or
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: names from Underhill. Still, given his expertise, connections, and interests
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 1: as of nineteen sixty three, it's quite probably that he
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: had become aware of a group of CIA officers who
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: were either involved in or provided support for the murder
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: of the president. So that's fimilire Hancock. He doesn't just
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: pick up any bullshit and run with it. This is true,
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: So you know, it kind of brings up the question
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: was was he killed because something related to JFK, because
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: it was something related to gun running or Cuba or
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: something completely unrelated where he was banging his neighbor's wife
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: like the pitch of Meyer.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 4: I don't know, yeah, but normally, you know, God, it's
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 4: never had any issues in the past, doesn't go running
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 4: the day after the assass Nason to his friends frantic,
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 4: so frantic that they won't let him stay there, like, well,
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 4: that's his damn mind.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: We're gonna get into this rock because we're the Fitzgimmons'.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: Fitzsimmons is that good of friends to him, and and
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: we're going to figure this out now. So there were
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: some friends of his, so of course he died in
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: May of nineteen sixty four. Some of his friends started
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: inquiring about his death, and like I mentioned before, they
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 1: ended up writing congressmen and it ended up resulting in
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: a CIA inquiry internal inquiry. But this is one of
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: his friends, John Donovan. Actually wait, oh no, no, I'm sorry.
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: This is to his friend John Donovan from another friend
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: of his, Paul Ogal Dear mister Donovan.
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 4: Yes, sir, said Paul. From Paul Blow.
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: Missus, dear mister Donovan, missus Underhill. Gary's wife has asked
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 1: me to write you regarding your correspondence inquiring about Gary Underhill.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: She has done so because I was an old friend
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 1: of Gary's and was in touch with him much more
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: frequently than she was since their separation.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 4: So he was.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: Separated from his wife for I think a little more
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: than a year, So got to keep that in context.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 4: Here interesting letterhead there too, this written one.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to get into that too, Falcon Aeronautics.
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: Remember remember that fuck missus. Underhill has asked me to
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: write you regarding your correspondence anchering about Gary Underhill. Oh,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: I am quite sure that his comments regarding President Kennedy's
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: assassination were hallucinatory. He had never mentioned that these fears,
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: these fears to me, although I had seen him off
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: and on last winter. But they are similar to those
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: flights of his imagination which he had during the last
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: year or so of his life. Gary had been for
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: a short time under psychiatric treatment about a year and
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: a half ago. He unfortunately did not carry on with
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: it and deteriorated to quite an extent. Unfortunately, those of
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: us who had known Gary for many years were not
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: able to help him nor persuade him to seek medical assistance. Okay,
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: so this is from a friend of Underhill's talking corresponding
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: with his wife a month after his death. So again,
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: take take it for what it is, decide it for yourself.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: So then, of course, a couple months later, CI gets
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 1: word of this from the initially from the Garrison investigation.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: It started right, Garrison had this is I think it
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: was a do J. This is a DOJ CI document.
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: But they're asking the DJ all these questions like was
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: this guy was guy Banister? CIA? Was one of the
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: questions I saw, right, And the CI's answer was no,
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: one word no. So this is what the Garrison investigation
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: asked about Underhill. Who is the Jay Garrett Underhill referred
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 1: to in Garrison's Playboy interview. I'm sorry, CI asking itself
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: as a former sea agent. Underhill was born blah blah blah,
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen, Brooklyn, graduating from Harvard. Who I think pinchel
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: Meyer did too, right, Oh, she was in the Harvard circles.
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 4: He was in an all girls' school. Okay, I'm sorry.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: He was in frequent contact with the New York office
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: of the Domestic Contact Service of CIA from late forty
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 1: nine to fifties. Contact was routine. Mister Underhill was not
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 1: a CI employee. And then this is another This is
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: the Documentar's referring to earlier, the internal document of the
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: CIA asking about the Underhill allegation, and these this is
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: the OS indices results subject Underhill was approved for contact
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: use with caution on November two, nineteen forty nine, to
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: be used on a limited basis, not to receive classified
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: information above confidential because insufficient information was available regarding the subject.
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 1: It was known that he had served in the US
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: Army from forty three to forty six and employee as
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 1: a journalist for Life Magazine as a researcher on military
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: items from thirty eight to forty two. While in the Army,
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: he received accommodation for superior work in military intelligence, citing
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: his wide knowledge and independent research in the field of
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: foreign arms, uniforms and insignia. However, it was noted in
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: a report that when he worked for Life Magazine, he
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: was described as a professionalist, hard to get along with,
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: and his employment was terminated with Life because the lack
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: of need for a military expert at the time. In
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: a memorandum dated June sixty seven, Domestic Contact Services Office
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: commenting on their use of Underhill, they reported it was
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: routine relationship established with a subject for the purpose of
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: collecting foreign positive intelligence. On or about May fifty May
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, Underhill furnished information about blah blah blah blah blah,
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. He came up
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: in a nineteen fifty seven agency name check UH concerning
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: his suicide. A copy of the SRS memorandum dated twenty
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: seven September sixty seven is attached. It was deturbin there
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: had been no foul play connected with Underhill's death, and
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 1: that he had committed suicide. So again, take it for
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 1: what you will as an internal document, right, and let's see. Okay,
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read the last thing since the first
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 1: two paragraphs are kind of redundant. This is another instance
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: of Ramparts using the alleged statements of mentally unbalanced individuals
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: to bolster their case of CIA's suppose involvement in the assassination.
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 4: It's one of those nasty conspiracy theory folks.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: That's what they say. Again, you know, take take it
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: for what it's worth. But as we know how documents work, right,
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: Like a story comes out, someone says an email in
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: the CIA, what's going on with this? Someone in the
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: CIA who has access to what's actually going on, response
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: to what's going on, and you could believe it or not.
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 4: How it works, right, It depends on the severity of things. No,
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 4: it's either just no or hell no. We looked at
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 4: this person possibly but said.
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: No, we might have used them as a contact for
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: possible foreign intelligence fifteen years ago.
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, And of course we know that the dates of
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: those are almost certainly not accurate. But to your question earlier,
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: they CIA also did an internal investigation into the Falcon
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: Aeronautics Incorporated and os indices results negative on subject firm,
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: negative on Paul Ogle, the guy who wrote that letter.
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 4: So and this is the oh, William Turner LEDs that
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 4: Falcon Aeronautics was an ad hoc CIA front.
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: Right, right, So so they are addressing that internally, right,
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 1: and like someone's asking about it and then someone's responding
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 1: Office of Security saying negative negative. Right. That's this is
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: like kind of the the timeline of the.
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 4: Article negative be tied back to the CIA, right.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: The first of his ramparts. Then Garrison came out with
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: unplayable and that's what started this whole back and forth
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 1: of documents here, right. So I did find something very
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: interesting in regards to Gary Schooner in a letter to
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: Vince Palomara. I'm sorry, Penn Jones, I'm sorry all these.
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 4: Say, I don't think Paramount Palomara was alive back then.
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: I know I messed that one up, bad Penn Jones.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: They all look the same to me, sound the same
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: to me. November twenty six, sixty eight. So this is,
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 1: you know, not long after these documents.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 4: We just read, are Vince Solandria.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: It might have been Vincent. Yeah, I might have had
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: it right the first time.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 4: No, there's a difference between Vince Landria and Vince Palomara.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got those.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 4: I think it's Vince Silandria because he was Philadelphia guys,
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 4: same as original.
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I got my Vince's confused.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 4: Thank you, dear.
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: Good to hear from you, Schauner says, glad to hear
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 1: you're going down to see Jim. Of course, Garrison. My
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: major contribution to the case thus far is needling, needling
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: you to get as active as you were before.
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 4: H a false mystery.
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: He goes through this whole long letter of all these
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 1: things he has issues with. He goes on like the
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: whole Noguel thing and this and that. You know, I
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 1: don't believe Miguel because this I believe this guy. I
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: believe Abraham Bolden because of this. You know those type
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: of things, right, uh, and this is his little thing
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: on the Underhill story, SHAWNA writes, the Underhill story, according
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: to the copy of Rampart's file, is probably untrue and
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 1: at the very least unproven. Ramparts memos by the guy
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 1: who did the interviews concluded there was no reason to
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: believe that Underhill was crazy at the time, and that
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: there was no evidence that he was either CIA or military.
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 1: This quote close friend to whom he allegedly told his
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: story was not even known by his wife or a
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: friend of his. That's the person he visited. But of
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: course they were separated at the time, him and his wife,
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 1: so his wife saying he didn't know him doesn't necessarily
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: mean anything. Again, we see the pattern of evidence in
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 1: which either and which can either help a lot or
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: hurt a lot, sensational stuff which Jim and everyone else
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: uses assuming that it is true, but which is at
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: best unsubstantiated. There is no need for such stuff or
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: even speculation about it, unless it is true. All the
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 1: stuff is extra. It doesn't fill in holes in Jim's case,
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: but rather needlessly elaborates it in a way which causes
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 1: an enormous credibility gap. Things like this leave Garrison open
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: to destruction by the news media. Anyone seriously studying his
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 1: claims and their attacks in such an instance would be
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 1: I can't read that word justify, justify. So here Shaner
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: saying that Garrison needs to focus on things more to
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: the point I think is the gist of that. So
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, listen, this dude was
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: military intelligence. He was definitely working with CIA and CIA
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 1: cutouts to traffic arms. Like Larry Hancock said, he would
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: have had a good idea of the type of people
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: who could have pulled this rogue operation off. And I'm
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: gonna agree with him. I think his initial thoughts twenty
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: four hours after that some roll click probably did it.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: I would agree with that, working theory wise, But you know,
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: did he have any specifics on the operation. That's a
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 1: stretch to me. And was he killed six months later
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: after threatening to blow the whistle the day after? I'm
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: not there yet, but I don't know.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 4: Real quick Joe, Happy birthday, Sally, Oh, happy.
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: Birthday, Sally. Why didn't you tell us earlier? I know
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 1: we saved the best for last.
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 4: Huh. Yeah, they throw that in there.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Happy thirtieth birthday, so.
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 4: Have me twenty ninth again.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, when uh, when estimating women's ages, you always have
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: to go like younger, you know, just to be on
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: the safe side. Any man. I'm not saying Sally looks old.
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 1: She looks very good.
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 4: And uh I love Sally your boy, uh Connor three weeks?
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, her her boy.
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 4: Uh it's always that purchased yet.
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 1: Connor McGregor, it's not the way it's in the mail
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: checks in the mill. Connor McGregor is getting some uh
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 1: some media recently. I saw in the past day he's
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: trying to run for president of Ireland and Sally if
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 1: he runs, will you vote for him?
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 4: What is on the com.
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 1: I know the answer to that question, but I'm gonna ask.
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 4: You, and yes, we should probably say. Joe mentioned in
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 4: the comments earlier that the RFK files were released today. Yes,
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 4: like ten thousand pages. So yeah, I don't know what's
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 4: gonna There's not enough time in the day, bro, there's
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 4: barely enough time for this, and all of them, never
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 4: before released, are scanned online. Yeah, you could see him
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 4: if he actually went to the archives and looked like
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 4: look looked but you could have had access to them
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 4: before possibly, you know, I don't know some of it right, right.
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just hope they focus on one thing at
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 1: a time because they still have twenty four hundred FBI
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: documents to scan in that Luna said they didn't have
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: enough archivists to digitize.
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 4: So stop being so broad, say said he's a knob Joe,
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 4: no chance you'd vote for economic Gregor.
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 1: I had that feeling.
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 4: That would be a complete another ship show if he
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 4: actually became President of Ireland. Yeah.
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 1: News, I would enjoy that for the entertainment value. But
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: because I know Sally is there, I'll leave her vote
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: up to her.
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 4: But yeah, man long Trump Trump likes the UFC.
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he was in the He was in the
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: office a couple of weeks ago, so it would be
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 1: funny for sure. But yeah, I just wanted to kind
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 1: of touch on the Underhill thing because it's been such
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: a big story in the news and I didn't really
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 1: know what to think of it, And you know, I
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 1: think my recent comments kind of let you know where
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: I kind of land on it right now. But like
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: so many things, in this case, it's not cut and dry, right,
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: It's percentage confidence he definitely knew something, that's for sure,
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 1: or he.
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 4: Thought he knew something, or he was just really depressed
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 4: that his marriage was over and lost his mind.
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I mean how many times in the
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: case Rob, have we seen situations like this of people
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 1: who have been quote mentally disturbed?
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 4: And is this a way to label for them? They're
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 4: all they're they're an alcoholic, They're they're mentally the right, right, right,
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 4: it's Ralph Yates, look at uh, Richard Case, Miguel Yes,
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 4: Jack Martin, Jack Martin.
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The only thing that seems yeah, the only thing
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 1: that seems interesting to me here is you have these
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: friends of his and all their correspondents like a month
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 1: or two after his death kind of saying that, right.
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: And again I don't know, it's I don't know if
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: these guys were spooks too. I really have no idea.
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 4: So that's and it matches the old mo o of
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 4: the company, you know, so that it does add to
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 4: the conspiracy web of all this ship you know. Yeah.
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But still interesting that the media picks up on
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 1: this story out of all stories, right, That's that's what's
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: interesting to me, Like, why is it just because it's
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: easy to explain to someone who's looking at it. Like
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 1: for two minutes.
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 4: He was, yeah, that's just dead, right, right skill document released.
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but of course you know, the redactions weren't
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: even relating to him. They were relating to Armco. You know, yeah,
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: so and and how much money they are making. And
• 2:19:57
  Speaker 1: see I wanted to keep the profits from this, you know.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 1: So again, like everything echoes much deeper than what is
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 1: on the reference.
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 4: Which is interesting too because and John crow So sold
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 4: their guns to Client Sporting Goods. Oswald allegedly ordered his
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 4: right from Clin Sporting Goods. We know Jerry Patrick Hemming
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 4: put an application to work at Client Sporting Goods in Chicago,
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 4: so who knows, man, you know. Yeah, we're down the
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 4: rabbit hole, Joe.
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we like to do that.
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 4: So I'm just ruby to bring us a rope to
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 4: pull us up, Lassie style.
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 1: She's sleeping, ah but uh yeah uh. Deep politics by
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 1: Peter Dale Scott is uh covers the Underhill thing as well.
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 1: I believe I think Hancock mentioned that. But yeah, I'll
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 1: just catch up with some comments. And yeah, Tim or
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 1: Days you could be a covert operator. Again, we have
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 1: missed you a ten or days, so that can become
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: one too.
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 4: I M. We appreciate the wi yeah, but yeah man,
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 4: that's uh.
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 1: I thought I thought that was pretty fun.
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 4: And uh.
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 1: I will turn on the Ruby cam when you give
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 1: the word.
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 4: All right, folks, that's it for us this week. It's
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 4: been another bang as usual, as per the usual. I
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 4: think we got two more Wednesdays left in this month,
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 4: one more, one more, I don't know about that, Joe.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the next one is twenty oh yeah, yeah right,
• 2:22:05
  Speaker 1: look out Thursday. You're good.
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 1: I thought the Spooks were again lucky.
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 4: I think we had five Wednesdays this month, in this
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 4: month of April.
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 1: Five more members only shows for you to catch up.
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 4: All yeah, so not next week but after we'll be
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 4: free to Spooks and above. But next week be cover
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 4: Operators and Above. So join us if you like. It's
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 4: always a party on Wednesday nights on the Super Secret Show. Yeah,
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 4: thank you, thank you, south West. Yes, we had fun
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 4: doing it. And who knows what tomorrow brings. I think
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 4: I think will be. I was supposed to record Quick
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 4: Hits tomorrow, but it got pushed back because of the
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 4: Easter holiday. Okay, so we'll be were recording Quick Hits
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 4: next week next Saturday. If you have any questions you'd
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 4: like answered on Quick Hits, send an email to what
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 4: is the address there? What is it? Yeah, Quick Hits
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 4: jfk at gmail dot com. Let me double check that
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 4: because that doesn't sound right. I might be totally wrong.
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: I think it is.
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 4: You might be right, Joe.
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: It is all a blur, that is for sure.
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, Quick Hits jfk at gmail dot com. And and yes,
• 2:23:42
  Speaker 4: turn Horse, I've got your email. Uh. I will check
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 4: out Wormwood. I just haven't looked for it yet on Netflix.
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 4: If it's still on there. Yeah, I'll be very busy
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 4: this weekend.
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 4: It is WrestleMania weekend. Oh so lots of wrestling to
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 4: watch this weekend.
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 1: Very cool. Yes, and Scott who if you were in
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 1: the chap before and I was reading it, see the chat,
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 1: Hello sir, and a great weekend and happy Easter to
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 1: all who observe.
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 4: For sure, Yes, and Sally, I got your message. I
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 4: love the T shirt Freaking rock Timothy Redman. I will
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 4: get around answering you, sir at some point. I'm a
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 4: very busy man. M p. Eight nine two. I will
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 4: get around answering you as well, Jeffrey Sunberg, I will
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 4: get around answering you as well, sir. Oh yeah, very
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 4: busy man.
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes you are, sir. NK with a great quote
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 1: from Samuel Cummings, who was the inter armcore guy. He
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 1: who harms no one, fears no one. If that was
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 1: his U oh that is, sus all, I trust it is.
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 1: But wow that that's uh. That pretty much sums it
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 1: up right, And thank you Randall for your first staying
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 1: the whole time for your first live show.
• 2:25:14
  Speaker 4: We awesome, lad you dug it. We loved having you here.
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 4: The more the merrier, we always say, yeah, thank you Jack. Yeah,
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 4: I appreciate all of you guys for hanging out with
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 4: us tonight. So without a further do you.
• 2:25:31
  Speaker 1: Ruby Camp?
• 2:25:34
  Speaker 4: Oh, Ruby, come on girl, you know what time it is.
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 4: Come on, come on, come on Ruby Town to dance.
• 2:25:44
  Speaker 4: Come one way there, Come on, good girl, who's a
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 4: good girl? Came here?
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 1: Baby?
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 4: Who doesn't love?
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: We lost people.
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 8: The greatest lies are toll greatest crime in the name
• 2:26:22
  Speaker 8: of justice. The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 8: used for him or against him in this strange case.
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 1: Good Night, m H. Wir have a great weekend every one.
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 4: And ado servoir. Yes ere it dirty m hym