Latest / Art of the Question / The Scientific Method to Achieve Your Goals - Prof. Gabriele Oettingen - #45
Transcript
- Julius Moorman: Gabriel, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've wanted to do an episode about ⁓ motivation, about goal setting for a long time now. And yeah, you seem like the perfect guest ⁓ to discuss this topic. So I really appreciate that. ⁓ first of all, I was curious to understand ⁓ where did your interest in goal setting and motivation come from, and when did you first decide to ⁓ start studying it? Yeah. That's a ⁓ that's a short question. with a long answer. We have time. I was always interested in well, but maybe the readers or the the audience doesn't want to listen in this story too long. ⁓ I wa always was interested in in people. I was interested in why people do what they do. I was interested in behavior change. ⁓ And that lands you very quickly in thinking about the future, which is my my topic, and ⁓ how thinking about the future will affect ⁓ behavior change. I mean this being said, I have had many lives before I became a psychologist. ⁓ I was a photographer, I was a biologist, ⁓ in biology ⁓ I was especially interested in behavioral biology and kind of behaviour of different species. ⁓ that threw me into psychology when people study one particular species and ⁓ then in psychology it's just really nice because people can just come up with their own theories, with their own ideas and then they test them empirically, then they know whether they were Half right, half wrong, or everything in between. And ⁓ and that is fascinating and that ⁓ necessarily threw me into behavior change in people and also in ⁓ you know, how can you influence behavior change yourself? Yeah. Very very interesting. And I'm I'm also interested in ⁓ motivation, ⁓ a goal setting. It's it's it's quite a hot topic nowadays. And before we get into the entire manifestation part of things and and perhaps the the the woo-woo ⁓ quasi science ⁓ behind some of the things that are circulating on social media ⁓ nowadays, I was kind of interesting to hear from you how important is motivation when it comes ⁓ to goals? Because Of course, when we are unmotivated to do something, it takes a lot of energy to to do it. When we are motivated to do something, it takes some energy, but it takes less energy because of the motivation. And I think when we are obsessed with some with something, we don't even need motivation. It takes more energy not to pursue the thing that you're obsessed by. So how motivation Is nice and it's usually good fuel in the beginning when we try to pursue a goal, but motivation isn't permanent. We have days where we f feel very motivated and we have days where we don't really feel motivated. So how important is motivation when trying to achieve our goals? Is it even important? Well, it depends on how you define motivation. ⁓ now if you define it in a very rudimentary way. You could you could observe your dog. You see, ⁓ where is my dog motivated and why not? And you can ask yourself, What does it mean? How do I know that the dog is motivated? Well, obviously, ⁓ if he's very motivated, then he puts in a lot of energy, let's say, to get to the food. Now where's the food in the kitchen? Okay, in the direction of the kitchen the dog runs. So you have a very simple definition of motivation, which is it is energy in the first time. So energy. You can see it, you can mean observe it, you can measure it by muscle tension, by blood pressure, whatever. ⁓ and then its direction. So in what direction? To the food? or away from a a big sound or something. So approach motivation, avoidance of motivation. So you need the direction in what direction an organism goes and you need how much energy does the organism extend and then you have motivation. And then you can already understand speak orders of motivation psychology. If you understand how to observe your dog, your cat, yourself, your roommate, your child with your family member. Is the child motivated or not? How much energy in what direction does the child exert? And then you have a very practical and measurable definition of motivation and with that you can work that. Yeah. And obviously if people have a kind of set goals, very strongly ⁓ set goals, then ⁓ they move in a certain direction with more energy. The goal is a is a heuristic ⁓ that has something to do with a desired future or with an undesired future where you ⁓ you have the gold to get away from. Yeah. But I think part of what makes human psychology so interesting is that humans are probably one of the only species Or perhaps the only species that I'm currently aware of that is able to picture their situation years into the future, which makes our goals more interesting, or maybe not more interesting, but makes our goal goals different than when a dog is hungry, for example, because then of course the goal is to eat and and not to be hungry anymore, which is a very short term goal usually driven by by instincts where human goals can sometimes span ten years into the future, twenty years in the future, sometimes even ⁓ thirty years or more into the future. So it's a lot more abstract and ⁓ a lot less ⁓ yeah short term ⁓ if you will ⁓ which also introduces the problem of that Our motivation can shift from from day to day, right? Sometimes maybe we want to get in shape, we wanna become a better runner, whatever. And then as in the beginning, you want to eat healthy, get your sleep in, exercise very often, but then after two weeks, maybe you didn't sleep very well and and you came home late and you feel less motivated to get out there and and and do your run, even though you still want to become a runner, but not so much ⁓ that day. ⁓ so I guess ⁓ my question is how important is is is motivation even important for for human goal setting or are there other ways that we can achieve our goals? Because motivation is an unreliable resource when it comes to achieving our goals, in my experience at least. Okay, so you you answered the questions why why I've studied motivation. Well, humans can have long term goals, no? So the psychology of thinking about the future is fascinating in terms of how it influences our energy in what direction. And that's exactly what we study, because humans maybe some other species too. But but humans probably more than any other species, at least on Earth, ⁓ can can do what they don't want to do and not do what they want to do. So if I go to a party and there's a wonderful chocolate key, It's a birthday cake. I would really like to buy it in. But then I hold myself back. And then if I'm a student and it's summertime and it's so so lovely outside, ⁓ and I don't want to study, I can still go to the moon. So so that's interesting, and that's what we call self regulation. And for the self regulation of our TeamPal says we need to have a little bit more complicated system on top of it. And and that's what we study. Yeah. That's incredibly interesting. And I wanna touch on one of the things that became really popular a while ago. but I think there are some huge caveats to be made there. And I believe ⁓ you even proved ⁓ the opposite, which is The idea of manifesting. If we just think long and hard about our future, we envision it and we tell ourselves that we can do it and that we picture ourselves having achieved the thing we desire, that we are more likely to get it. And I kind of understand where it comes from. It it it makes sense, but I believe that there are some mechanisms inside of our brains that ⁓ and inside of the human psychology that would cause the exact opposite effect where we are less likely to achieve our goals when we envision it and when we fantasize about having achieved these goals or already. Can you maybe explain why that is? Well manifesting is a bubbly is is a bubbly idea. ⁓ that has a lot of different facets to it and ⁓ it's ⁓ it's it's it came basically from the bottom up. And ⁓ the idea of that we just need to imagine things and then they come to us is an old idea. It just ⁓ comes out in different decades in different forms. And at the moment it's coming out very frequently as manifesting. And ⁓ and some of these manifesting ideas even sort of think there are some kind of higher forces ⁓ involved in the in the ⁓ atmosphere that makes them makes them happen. Now this is wishful thinking. it's not only wishful thinking that I have a Maserati at twenty five doorsteps, but it's also wishful thinking that it works. And ⁓ and it's interesting because if if if we really investigate the effects of ⁓ positive daydreaming fantasies about the future, ⁓ we find some positives. We find, for example, it makes you in a good mood. So if you want to improve your mood, you're standing in a queue. It's very boring. So think about something positive for the future and think about how explications makes you in a better mood. But it also helps you to explore different possibilities you have. Would I go to this place and that place and the other place? What do I do tonight? ⁓ do I cook Italian? French or Swiss or whatever. ⁓ that's all good. But when it comes to actually then implementing these positive fantasies about the desired future, often the long term future, then you need to be careful. Because then the pure fantasies, the pure imagery and the b the the pure wishful thinking hurts. So And and we found that in so many studies in different lives domain, across age, ⁓ across different social strata and across country. So the more, for example, people involved in a rate reduction program fantasize about success in the program, the fewer palms they shed or the more positively students who were finishing university. fantasized about getting a good job in the field, the less money they're and the fewer offers they got. And interesting, the fewer applications they sent out. And then take students exams, more positively they fantasized about doing a good way, the worse they did. And even the romantic relationships, the more they fantasized about getting together with somebody they have a crush on, The less likely it was that they actually got together with that person three months later. And in health, hip replacement surgery patients, the more positively they fantasized about getting an easy to go later on, the worse they did, the less they could remove their joint, the fewer stairs they could walk, and the less was their general recovery as judged by the physical characters. And even in the mental health domain, the more positively people fantasized about the future, children and adults. The less depressed they were at the moment, good mood, but the more depressed they got overtime. Partly because they just didn't do anything. And that made them less and successful. It's it's so interesting. Is is is part of the reason why this happens is that we are so good into tricking our brains of this future that it kind of serves as a substitute for actually pursuing that future? Exactly. So ⁓ these positive fantasies they can be very strong and they they make us feel, ⁓ we're there. It's done. It's already over. Great. I I reached it. So what do you do when you have completed something, when you have success? You relax. Okay. That's what people do too, and you can measure that by looking at the blood pressure, or you can measure that by self reports. How energized do I feel with respect to implementing my wish. Hmm, not so much. Yeah. Mine tricks you into being there. So that's cozy. But on the other hand, ⁓ it makes you all also sit instead of Going for it. Yeah. Yeah. That that makes a lot of sense if you put it that way, right? I know that in in the experience when when not necessarily the studies you've talked about, this is more anecdotal, but ⁓ I've heard also advice from people who want to start a business or perhaps they want to write a book or something that one of the worst Things you can do is to tell everyone that you are going to do it. Same for losing weight, because by telling people, so this is kind of a little bit different than manifesting it, but I believe telling people has a similar effect on our brains as well. And it kind of releases that good feeling of having already accomplished ⁓ the task. Is that also something that comes back in in the liter literature that that Telling people is similar to to to ⁓ manifesting it, if you will? Well, ⁓ it it's it's a different phenomenon and therefore I wouldn't say similar, but but you're referring on to a study that goes in share and and ⁓ and they found, yeah. You know, if you want to do something which is a little hard, maybe you should not tell ⁓ everybody you should not post everybody to everybody that you are doing that because then you know everybody says, ⁓ this is great, this is great, and then you relax. Yeah. And ⁓ it's for I think for many people this could come as a surprise though, and it might be hard to reconc reconcile with having th ⁓ faith in your own abilities. Because I am also a big believer of first you you have to believe it to achieve it. So you have to if you have a mindset that doesn't allow you to think big. And if you don't believe in growth and you if you don't believe in improvement and if you don't believe in that you can change things, that that you have high agency essentially, you're also not going to achieve v a lot, I think. Because If you don't believe it, who else is going to? It starts with you. So how do we reconcile the two? Well, this is exactly the then the next question which we ask, because people said, well, you know, if positive thinking is makes you kind of just sort of relax. just get positive thinking and just let let people think negatively. But that's not the solution. And why is that not the solution? Because these positive thoughts and images about the future, just like you're saying, they're very important. What do they do? They give action the direction. And as we said, motivation is defined by energy times direction. So we need the direction where to go. And how do we know that these positive fantasies and dangerings are important to give ourselves the direction? We know that from a f a lot of experiments which we did. Where we deprived people. You can take it off the website and apply it ⁓ through your life. And it takes, you know, five minutes, three minutes, two minutes to do one whoop exercise and you get clarity. And you can really delegate it then also I did my exercise, I thought it through, and then the non conscious processes they help you to get through the day. So that's really neat. And ⁓ so it's a it's a good friend. It's it's a discovery tour. You understand what you really want. You understand what is possible for you and how you can actually go the way to wish fulfillment. And the most importantly you understand what's in the way. And what's in the way in one wish is often also in the way of many other wishes. So ⁓ this discovery is worthwhile. And ⁓ and just play with it. It's non evaluative, it's non self reflective, you just need to go into it and do this little exercise. And ⁓ and and have fun with it. ⁓ do it do it ⁓ playfully. But practice because if you if you practice then then you get more expert and then it's easier for you to find, to wish outcome obstacle in that mind. Beautiful. I will make sure to to put the website ⁓ in the show notes ⁓ for sure, Gabriel. Is there anything ⁓ that you think we haven't ⁓ discussed that you ⁓ would like to mention still or is important to discuss while we are on the topic? Not gonna I don't know. ⁓ on the website you basically find everything. There's also bookouts ⁓ where I describe the research and and and the applications. So for people who have a lot of time, read the book. If you don't have a lot of time, which is probably true for most of of you, go to the website, ⁓ download the app and give us feedback. ⁓ you know, and if you have any question on, you know, how do I find my obstacle or something, let us know. There's also the contact on the website. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for for coming on the show, ⁓ Gabriel. ⁓ like I already said, I I really appreciate it. I had a lot of fun ⁓ today and I will definitely make sure to apply Whoop to the next thing and the next goal I'm I'm contemplating because I ⁓ No Whoop helps you to create the goal. ⁓ that is true. You know, it's an uncommittal wish. And then you I'm already I'm already screwing it up. No, no, no, you don't screw it up. But it's important. You have so many wishes. ⁓ so many different wishes. And you can use mental contrasting to actually distill the wishes you really commit to. And then it's a problem. Yes. No, that's that's I I I appreciate the ⁓ the nuance there. And it's it it no, it's it's good. It's good, but it's so relevant to me because Sometimes I do feel overwhelmed with all the possibilities are out there. Sometimes I wish I would live in in simple times where I had zero options presented to me because it would be kinda boring maybe, but it would also make life easier. And now with the rise of artificial intelligence and it's easy to make a website within two minutes and you can build apps and You can travel and you see it what everyone's doing on on social media. I think we are bombarded every single day with opportunity and with ⁓ the grass is greener type of scenario. So I think it would be very helpful for me and and probably many, many other people who haven't already discovered it to learn this technique in order to apply it to more things and and and make it part of your thinking so that it does become second nature and that you can preserve your attention to the things that you really care about. I would have never done a website or a book or a trade book or or the ⁓ the Whoop app without Whoop. Because it helps you to get out of your comfort zone. And ⁓ and you sometimes you need to get out of your comfort zone in order to actually Have fun in life. Yeah. I ⁓ I agree. Well, it's a beautiful way to to end it. ⁓ G Gabriel, thank you so much. ⁓ I I really appreciate you and ⁓ Thank you for having me. This was great.