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Does AI Dream Interpretation Really Work? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered what your dreams mean? Join us
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: in Dream School at thisyunginlife.com and find out. Jung wrote,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: dreams are a little hidden door in the innermost and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: most secret recesses of the soul.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Dream School is a unique, self-paced online program you can
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: start at any time that unlocks access to your inner world.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Our 12-month program provides the support, knowledge, and guidance you
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: need to reach within, decipher your personal dream code, and
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: harness it to optimize your life. By enrolling, you'll join
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: an affirming community of fellow travelers, each pursuing a unique quest.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: And it's fun.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: Join us on an adventure to wholeness and healing through
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: understanding your dreams. Go to thisjungielife.com and click on Dream Schools.
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: You'll be taken to our secure checkout. Once you join,
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: you'll get immediate access to our first three modules. You
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: can get started right away. We look forward to seeing
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: you there.
• 1:09
  Speaker 5: Welcome to This Jungian Life Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 1:14
  Speaker 5: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
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  Speaker 5: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
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  Speaker 5: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
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  Speaker 4: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
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  Speaker 1: Well, hello, listeners. Welcome. Many of you know that we
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  Speaker 1: like to hear your topic requests for episodes. We have
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  Speaker 1: a button on our website and many people have requested
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  Speaker 1: an episode on AI and dream interpretation. This is something
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  Speaker 1: that a lot of people are experimenting with and excited
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  Speaker 1: about or perhaps skeptical about. And so we have on
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  Speaker 1: today John Temple. John is the founder of the Temenos
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  Speaker 1: Dream app. He graduated from Columbia University where he studied history.
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  Speaker 1: He worked for Microsoft for about 10 years. He is
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  Speaker 1: the founder of A Place for Mom. He's been on
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  Speaker 1: the board of the Philemon Foundation and he has read
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  Speaker 1: and studied Jung very widely. So we are excited to
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  Speaker 1: have him on and to talk about what AI can
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  Speaker 1: and cannot do when it comes to dream interpretation. So welcome, John.
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  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here,
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  Speaker 6: you guys. I've been listening to you guys for at
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  Speaker 6: least four years, so it's really fun to actually be
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  Speaker 6: part of it.
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  Speaker 3: So John, what prompted you to bring your technology background
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  Speaker 3: to bear upon this question of dreams, recording dreams, interpreting them?
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  Speaker 3: What was the inspiration for that?
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  Speaker 6: I had been in Jungian analysis for a while myself.
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  Speaker 6: And so working with a lot of dreams and, and
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  Speaker 6: like most people, I would write my dreams down and
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  Speaker 6: then I thought, Oh, okay, well let's use the phone
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  Speaker 6: to record my dreams. And so every night I'd record
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  Speaker 6: a dream or a couple of dreams. And then the
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  Speaker 6: next day I'd go and transcribe them on into my,
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  Speaker 6: like those moleskin notebooks. And I've got probably 60 of
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  Speaker 6: them full of dreams. And, and, And just coming from
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  Speaker 6: a tech background, I was like, this is got to
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  Speaker 6: be simpler. Partly because I'm just lazy. I'm just like,
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  Speaker 6: I don't want to just rewrite everything again. And so
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  Speaker 6: the initial impetus was I want to make it easier
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  Speaker 6: to just capture the dream because I should be able
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  Speaker 6: to record it and then have a computer or something
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  Speaker 6: transcribe it for me. And then once I've got that,
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  Speaker 6: I think, all right, if I get a big database
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  Speaker 6: of dreams, I want to know what are the symbols
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  Speaker 6: that keep repeating? Like what's most common? What keeps showing up?
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  Speaker 6: And so I want to treat it like a bit
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  Speaker 6: of a database and how do I kind of really
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  Speaker 6: look at that? And then I also have the question of,
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  Speaker 6: I had that dream about the bear and the black cloud,
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  Speaker 6: you know, like when was that? It was two years ago.
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  Speaker 6: I'm going through all these, which book is it in?
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  Speaker 6: You know, it's just so difficult. And so I figured that's,
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  Speaker 6: that was my primary goal is I just, I just
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  Speaker 6: built it for me. I just really wanted, make my
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  Speaker 6: dream capture and dream work easier and more interesting. And
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  Speaker 6: so that's where it came from. And then the technology
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  Speaker 6: keeps evolving and coming forward. And it's like, oh, well,
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  Speaker 6: we could use this tool and let's pull that in. Oh,
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  Speaker 6: here's an idea. Let's pull that in. And then I
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  Speaker 6: started working with some friends on it. And they had
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  Speaker 6: a lot of suggestions about, well, it'd be great if
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  Speaker 6: we could do this. And then, hey, let's share our dreams.
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  Speaker 6: Let's talk back and forth with them. So can we
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  Speaker 6: create a platform to do that? So it just sort
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  Speaker 6: of grew and evolved. So it's been fun.
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  Speaker 3: How did that affect your analysis to be able to,
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  Speaker 3: let's say, type in a search term like bears and
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  Speaker 3: all of a sudden you found five bear dreams and
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  Speaker 3: then you're, I don't know, bringing that into analysis and
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  Speaker 3: comparing them, something like that?
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  Speaker 6: I think the way it affected my analysis and still
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  Speaker 6: does is it's kind of a little bit of an
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  Speaker 6: enhancement in the sense that in any given analytical session
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  Speaker 6: and you know, I'd go once a week for an hour, um,
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  Speaker 6: you could talk about maybe one dream, maybe two dreams,
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  Speaker 6: but anything beyond that, then you're just skimming the surface.
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  Speaker 6: And so it meant that I could capture all the
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  Speaker 6: dreams that I have in a week and maybe they're 10,
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  Speaker 6: 12 and, and I can really pick from which ones
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  Speaker 6: and I'll have gone through it in great depth beforehand.
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  Speaker 6: And so I can kind of go in and say,
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  Speaker 6: I had another dream about a bear and here, and
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  Speaker 6: it's like that other one and so forth. And my
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  Speaker 6: analyst is great. And I've had two over almost nine years,
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  Speaker 6: but their memory of my dreams is finite, right? But
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  Speaker 6: it's great to be able to go and say, and
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  Speaker 6: this one, and it kind of reminds me of that
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  Speaker 6: one and begin to kind of really pull in some things.
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  Speaker 6: And that kind of expands the, my analyst capabilities too,
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  Speaker 6: because then they get to be able to work with
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  Speaker 6: not just that individual dream, but also see and be
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  Speaker 6: reminded of some other things there too. Because they'll typically have,
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  Speaker 6: you know, a really good idea of who I am,
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  Speaker 6: but they don't have like an encyclopedic knowledge of every
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  Speaker 6: dream I've ever had. But if you can kind of
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  Speaker 6: combine those things, it has a nice effect. And it
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  Speaker 6: gives me a chance to kind of work on things
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  Speaker 6: on my own, you know, before and between sessions where
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  Speaker 6: I can kind of go a little bit deeper and
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  Speaker 6: then come to a session and be like, here's the
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  Speaker 6: dream and here's what happened. And what do you think? Oh,
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  Speaker 6: is this like that? And is that like that? Or
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  Speaker 6: am I just kind of using, you know, one of
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  Speaker 6: the common issues with dreams is trying to take the
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  Speaker 6: dream material and fit it to, you know, pre-existing conscious attitude.
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  Speaker 6: And I'm always trying to do that. And so it's
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  Speaker 6: really helpful to have an analyst to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
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  Speaker 6: that's not the way to go.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it seems to me like we're leaning into
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  Speaker 1: this idea that we haven't actually discussed on the podcast,
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  Speaker 1: but I think we will at some point, is dream series.
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  Speaker 1: So Jung and other you know, von Franz and everything
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  Speaker 1: talk about how you can't really know much about from
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  Speaker 1: a single dream. You have to watch how the images
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  Speaker 1: change over a series. So if you've had five bear dreams,
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  Speaker 1: you know, what was the first one like? And what's
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  Speaker 1: the last one like? And you can watch the symbol,
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  Speaker 1: you know, which images a psychic content. You can track
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  Speaker 1: psychological developments and noting the change. So I think having
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  Speaker 1: a way to find all of the bear dreams is
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  Speaker 1: really important. And I, for that reason, I started keeping
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  Speaker 1: a digital journal for this, you know, so that I
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  Speaker 1: can sort of text search as well. I think that
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  Speaker 1: that is really something important that technology brings, because otherwise,
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  Speaker 1: you're trying to index them by hand, which is incredibly laborious.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah. And my fun with that is personally, the bears
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  Speaker 6: used to just chase me all the time and they
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  Speaker 6: were scary. And that was always an anxiety thing. And
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  Speaker 6: over time I could see the bear evolve to become
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  Speaker 6: this kind of friendly thing, very powerful, still dangerous, but
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  Speaker 6: really a good kind of friend of things. And I
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  Speaker 6: was like, well, that's gotta be good.
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  Speaker 3: That's right. You've become a friendly bear.
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  Speaker 1: That's generally a good direction.
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  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
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  Speaker 1: That is really cool. I didn't know you actually had
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  Speaker 1: bear dreams. I have whale dreams.
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  Speaker 3: So that's what I.
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  Speaker 6: Touch search as well.
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  Speaker 3: That's wonderful.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really cool.
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  Speaker 3: I often have bird dreams, talking parrots and human voices
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  Speaker 3: in the backyard.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, great.
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  Speaker 6: The other thing that I think is interesting about what
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  Speaker 6: you said about series, dream series, one of the things
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  Speaker 6: that I've been coached on, particularly in using the word interpretations,
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  Speaker 6: as regards interpreting a dream. There's a more kind of
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  Speaker 6: a strict Jungian perspective on what that kind of really means.
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  Speaker 6: In Temenos, we use it more loosely than I think
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  Speaker 6: a strict version of that is. But the idea that
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  Speaker 6: is an interpretation accurate? Is it a good interpretation? that
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  Speaker 6: that you've gotten particularly coming out of something like ai
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  Speaker 6: or something along those lines that that that there are
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  Speaker 6: kind of two judges of that or at least two
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  Speaker 6: one is the individual who's sort of the ego consciousness
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  Speaker 6: like did that resonate did that make sense like did
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  Speaker 6: that was that, you know, interesting? Do I, do I think,
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  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that, that kind of pricked something with me.
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  Speaker 6: But the other is the psyche sort of has its
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  Speaker 6: own opinion about, you know, well, was that interpretation right
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  Speaker 6: or was it not right? And so you kind of
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  Speaker 6: have to look at the next dream after the, you know, did, did,
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  Speaker 6: what did the psyche think of that? Um, I, I've had,
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  Speaker 6: I had a really funny dream once quite a while
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  Speaker 6: ago where, um, It was, I guess, the second after
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  Speaker 6: an interpretation that one of my analysts gave me. And
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  Speaker 6: it was a dream of, and it's like the only
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  Speaker 6: dream I've had of my analyst. And he was looking
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  Speaker 6: for a leak and he was, you know, in a
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  Speaker 6: room looking down, looking for a leak on something. And
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  Speaker 6: the leak was coming from the ceiling and it was
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  Speaker 6: dripping on his back and he didn't see it.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, that's great.
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  Speaker 6: We took that to mean that that wasn't the right interpretation.
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  Speaker 1: That's fantastic, yes. Yeah, that's what Gus calls that supervision
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  Speaker 1: from the self.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You know, that's like, nope, didn't get that one. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's always really interesting as the analyst to get a
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  Speaker 1: dream about you because it sort of feels like the
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  Speaker 1: unconscious is saying, here's where you're screwing up.
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  Speaker 3: Right, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes. So, yeah.
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  Speaker 6: He had a great sense of humor about it, so
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  Speaker 6: it was fun.
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  Speaker 1: That's a really wonderful example. I mean, I've certainly seen
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  Speaker 1: dreams– You know, where someone brings in a dream, we
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  Speaker 1: talk about it. The next week a dream comes back
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  Speaker 1: and it's either like, oh, yes, the dream maker saying,
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  Speaker 1: you got it. Or the next dream is like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's like the volume got turned up and it's, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a little it's and it's like, oh, I think I
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  Speaker 1: didn't get that, you know. So, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So, John, tell us a little bit more in pragmatic
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  Speaker 3: terms exactly what the app does and what are the
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  Speaker 3: various functions that people could experiment with? Sure.
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  Speaker 6: As I mentioned, the genesis of the app was to
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  Speaker 6: try and make it really simple to capture dreams. That
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  Speaker 6: kind of goes with the whole philosophy of why we're
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  Speaker 6: even doing this is because we love working with dreams
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  Speaker 6: and we want to capture more dreams and we want
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  Speaker 6: to increase the ease with which people engage with the psyche,
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  Speaker 6: with their dreams, with the unconscious and all that stuff. Initially,
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  Speaker 6: it's to try and make it easy to capture a dream.
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  Speaker 6: So You can use Siri or Google and say, hey Siri,
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  Speaker 6: record a dream. And if you're, sorry, that just.
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  Speaker 3: Started my phone.
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  Speaker 6: Because we have a way to set up a shortcut
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  Speaker 6: and it launches the app and it starts recording you.
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  Speaker 6: So you can have your phone on your nightstand. You
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  Speaker 6: don't even have to open your eyes. You just say,
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  Speaker 6: hey Siri, record a dream. It starts recording it. You
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  Speaker 6: roll over and when you're done, just hit done. That's it.
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  Speaker 6: It'll save it. It'll transcribe it. And then later you
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  Speaker 6: can kind of come back and start to work with it.
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  Speaker 6: And in the working with it process, we've got a
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  Speaker 6: massive database of kind of symbolism and ideas about what
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  Speaker 6: different symbols might mean. We have ways to, you can
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  Speaker 6: choose your own symbols or you can let the app
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  Speaker 6: kind of say, here, these might be some good symbols
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  Speaker 6: to look at. You can go through what each of
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  Speaker 6: the symbols might mean and kind of ideas about each
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  Speaker 6: of those different things. Again, to kind of prompt your
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  Speaker 6: engagement with like, oh, okay, this is showing up and
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  Speaker 6: I wonder why. Maybe it applies to these things. You
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  Speaker 6: can take lots of notes, take notes about context, take
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  Speaker 6: notes about feelings, the feeling tone, take notes about just
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  Speaker 6: anything you're thinking about the dream.
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  Speaker 3: Does the app to prompt people specifically, you know, and
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  Speaker 3: now add your feelings or, or is it just a
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  Speaker 3: kind of a blank page and people put in what
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  Speaker 3: they think to put in?
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, it, it, it has different sections. So here's where
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  Speaker 6: you put the dream. Here's where you put your feeling context.
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  Speaker 6: Here's where you put, you know, a feeling tone. Here's context.
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  Speaker 6: Here are with each symbol, here are your personal associations.
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  Speaker 6: So you can go through and give associations for every
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  Speaker 6: single symbol, just one, things along those lines. We've tried
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  Speaker 6: to be pretty loose about the process of the dream
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  Speaker 6: capture because we're not really sure what the right way is.
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  Speaker 6: So we're looking at a way to try and step
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  Speaker 6: people through it, kind of do this, then do that,
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  Speaker 6: then do that, then do that. But we don't want
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  Speaker 6: to be prescriptive about it. We kind of want to say,
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: put in what you want, where you want, when you want,
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  Speaker 6: and then we'll kind of keep it organized for you.
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  Speaker 6: One of the things I wanted to emphasize is it's
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  Speaker 6: all encrypted as well, so no one can see your
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: dreams in that app. If you choose to, you can
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  Speaker 6: also share a dream. You can share it with an
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: individual friend, you can share it with a group of friends,
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  Speaker 6: you can create a dream circle and have discussions around it,
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  Speaker 6: or you can post it publicly so that Other people
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  Speaker 6: can comment on the dream and say, oh, I had
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  Speaker 6: a dream like that. Or I remember when a lobster
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  Speaker 6: fell on my head in a dream and those lines.
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  Speaker 6: I guess that's kind of the main functions. And then
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  Speaker 6: we also have added in AI capabilities. And the AI
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  Speaker 6: has brought some really kind of fun stuff for playing
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  Speaker 6: with dreams. Initially, we hooked it up so that you
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  Speaker 6: can use AI to generate an image of from your dream.
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  Speaker 6: So if I'm dreaming about bears or lobsters, I can
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  Speaker 6: do a little description and say, draw me a picture
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  Speaker 6: of a bear chasing a lobster up a hill in
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  Speaker 6: a Miata. And it will create that image. And then
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  Speaker 6: I can play with it and say, no, the Miata
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: was blue, or the bear was a panda bear. And
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  Speaker 6: I can kind of keep playing with it. Jung and
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  Speaker 6: many others have often suggested that One of the ways
• 16:45
  Speaker 6: to work with dreams, the best ways, is to get
• 16:48
  Speaker 6: really creative and write about them, paint about them, create
• 16:52
  Speaker 6: poems off of them, sculpt them. And this is sort
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: of a way to do that, to kind of play
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: in a slightly more creative way with the images. The
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  Speaker 6: app also has the ability to, you can ask it,
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: go find myths and legends that might relate to thematically
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: or symbolically to my dream. And it'll go out and
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: we prompted to go through 32 different cultures and all
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: the myths and legends that the AI has access to,
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: which is not as many as I would hope, but
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  Speaker 6: it's pretty darn good. And try and look for similar
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: themes in that sense. And that can be really fun
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: to see what pops out of that. And then finally,
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  Speaker 6: we also just have it do a straight interpretation and
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: to say, okay, tell me more about this dream and
• 17:49
  Speaker 6: tell me what it might mean. And so we ask
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  Speaker 6: the AI to, with a lot of coaching, go through
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  Speaker 6: and give an interpretation of the dream, but really with
• 18:01
  Speaker 6: a focus on asking good questions. Say, you know, if
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: this comes up and that comes up, then there's this
• 18:08
  Speaker 6: theme happening. Do you see something like this happening in
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: your life? Is there something in a similar vein that
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: you are anxious about? Or something along those lines to
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: try and, again, just engage people with more kind of
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: deeper thought and deeper engagement about the dream.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Something special is happening. You are invited to join us
• 18:35
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• 18:40
  Speaker 3: American Muse, Christiana Morgan's Visions and Art. Our guest will
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  Speaker 3: and beautiful young artist, was one of the most important
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: women to shape Jung's ideas of the feminine principle in psychology.
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  Speaker 3: Her visions and art illuminated the unconscious in ways he
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  Speaker 3: had never imagined. Together, we'll watch Hillary's extraordinary documentary, Tower
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  Speaker 3: of Dreams. And after our discussion, the audience can ask questions.
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  Speaker 3: small cost of $ 5. We hope to see every one.
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: Of you there.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: There's so much there. No, no, no, it's great. And
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I definitely want to sort of talk about, obviously, the
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: AI stuff. But I'm curious, the symbols, you said it,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: you know, where did you get the symbol database from?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: What is the app pulling from?
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there are a couple sources. One was a kind
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: of an encyclopedic source of symbolism that I came across that,
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: and there are tons out there, right? There are so
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: many books about symbolism and encyclopedias and symbolism and websites
• 20:10
  Speaker 6: and so forth. Anyway, I found one that I really
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: liked and I contacted the, the author of all that
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: and said, Hey, can we license that? Uh, that person said, yes, great. Absolutely.
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: Because they also use it in a different context. They
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: insisted that I not identify who they were.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 20:30
  Speaker 6: So that was kind of part, one of our terms,
• 20:33
  Speaker 6: but I, I, just thought, man, that person really did
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: a good job.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: That's one.
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: And then the other is increasingly we've been testing and
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: letting chat GPT, you know, opine on symbols and it's
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: doing a better and better job over time. So. Okay.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Because I mean, there, you know, to, to our way
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of thinking, I think I'm speaking for me and Joseph
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: when I say this, There are the symbol dictionaries, which
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: we like, like the Book of Symbols, or there's a
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of other ones that are linked on our
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: website somewhere. You can look up bear, and it'll kind
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: of list, like, here's what bear means in Celtic mythology,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and here's what bear means in Norse mythology, and here's
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: what we know about bears, and this kind of stuff.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Versus Dream symbol dictionaries, which will say when a bear
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: chases you, it means that you're going to get in
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: a car crash later that day or something, which tend
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to be very flat, flattening and spurious.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: So I think when the symbol dictionaries are more amplifying,
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: as you were saying, and enlarging the concept, that's very
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: different than you drop a spoon and you're going to
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: get a visitor in 10 minutes or something like that.
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: Exactly.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: It's not signs, it's symbols.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So that's the nature of your, of the symbolic,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the app is kind of raking through more of that
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: amplification kind of stuff.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: We've really tried to tune it that way. I mean,
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: there are lots of clunkers in there without a doubt,
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: you know, but it's having gone through a lot of
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: this stuff, I consider it reasonably well curated and, Good
• 22:27
  Speaker 6: enough that, you know, it misses things and it gets
• 22:29
  Speaker 6: confused about things and so forth. But it's almost always
• 22:34
  Speaker 6: a little thought provoking.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: Okay. What about that? And yeah, to your point, Joseph,
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: it's kind of a little amplifying. And if it's that, okay.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I love the fact that AI can hallucinate. I just
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: find that unbelievably entertaining. And of course, it can be
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: wildly misleading. So I'm wondering if you've had some hilarious
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: encounters with your hallucinating AI on your app.
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: The evolution of the versions of AI is hysterical, but
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: it's definitely changing. We initially started giving people the option
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: of using AI symbolism, and we put every symbol in
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: there with a disclaimer, like, hey, we're trying this, but
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: sometimes it's really weird.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:20
  Speaker 6: If you would put in someone's proper name, we got
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: the most absurd things back. Like I said, this person
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: is dangerous or something.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: I'm like, what?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: That's just madness.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: I remember when it first came out, I was asking
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: it to find a Jung quote, and it would just lie.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: It would just make something up that I'd never seen before.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: But the thing was, it sounded so credible. That was
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: the thing that was so disarming.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I remember, Joseph, we were doing an episode on The Invitation.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: And you put in fairy tales about invitations. And there
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: was this great little snippet about the frog came out
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of the water with an invitation in its mouth. I'm like,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know that fairy tale. I need to know
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: that fairy tale. Where is that fairy tale? So I
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: was like madly looking for the fairy tale.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: It never existed.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And I just made it up.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: And it was so confident about it.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I know. And I was like, I want to read
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that fairy tale.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 24:19
  Speaker 6: When we initially introduced the myths and legends piece, we
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: ran into exactly that challenge. That you have a hallucination
• 24:27
  Speaker 6: setting that you can kind of go and say, all right,
• 24:29
  Speaker 6: do or don't hallucinate. If you're too strict, it can't
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: find anything. Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, because it can't see
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: this theme related to that theme. If you start to
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: kind of go a little wild, it makes up myths
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: and fairy tales.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Interesting.
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: The way ours works is we say, go out and
• 24:49
  Speaker 6: give me eight to 10 myths and fairy tales that
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: relate to the themes and symbols in this dream. And
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: it goes out and it grabs them and it, and
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: it'll come back with like a two sentence summary of each.
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: And then you can go and say, okay, learn more,
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: learn more, learn more. And it comes back with one initially.
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: And I'm like, what? Like, I didn't think that's a
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: weird one. You click on it. You know, it says, well,
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: this is the fairy tale of the frog and the
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: princess or whatever it is. Click on it. And it says, actually,
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: that wasn't the fairy tale. I misspoke. It's not a
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: Celtic fairy tale. That was from such and such. And
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: it's just completely like, oh, no, that was wrong.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: And you're like, oh, man, we've got to work on
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: this setting.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: But, I mean, it's a fair– that's the grain of salt,
• 25:38
  Speaker 6: big salt.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:40
  Speaker 6: All the AI stuff. It tries to give you an answer.
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: It always, and you can ask it a hundred times
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: and it'll try a hundred times to give you an answer.
• 25:49
  Speaker 6: Even when it should say, I don't know.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of my son. He's like
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: conversant on just about any topic and it's fascinating, but
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: then you're like, is that true? And it's like, you
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: realize he just makes shit up. It's hilarious.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Um, yeah.
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: Sounds like you'd be a wonderful writer.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: Oh, sorry.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: No, it's great. Um, so here's the thing. I've played
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: around with apps for dream interpretation. I've played around some
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: with your app and I've also played around with the
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: one that Kelly Bulkley has, has created. Um, uh, I'm
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: going to have to look elsewhere. Thank you. I was
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: thinking everywhere, but it's elsewhere. The elsewhere happened. And we
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: did talk about that when we had Kelly on the show.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: And here is my experience with AI dream interpretation. I
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: don't want to like it, obviously. I'm sort of innately
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: suspicious of it. It kind of goes against some core
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: beliefs about some very important things to me. But I
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: will say that there have been times when I have
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: a dream and I feed it into either your app
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: or Kelly's app. And what comes back shifts the way
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about it a little bit and has
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: moved me forward in understanding it, which is interesting. And
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that that happens every time, but it
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: happens often enough that it seems to me like it's
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: a good help. It doesn't. I think it would be
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: a problem to lean on it too exclusively or to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: take what the AI said is, this is what my
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: dream means. But it's sort of like asking someone who
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: maybe doesn't know much about you or much about dreams, like,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: what would you think about this dream? And they come
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: back with something that's a little random and But it
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: helps you shift out of your ego perspective and maybe
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: see it in a little bit of a different direction
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that then can lead to a deeper understanding. So I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: don't know. Joseph, if you've had any experience or what
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: you think about it.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: Well, I play around with AI a lot. So I've
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: had a lot of experiences. And I find it all
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: very fun. My thinking was not so much about accuracy
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: but about the temenos. Which is interesting, that's your app.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Because when you're in an analysis, it's such a sacred,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: closed space for a period of time between the analysand
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: and the analyst. And so I'm curious, over time we
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: may know, how it changes the temenos to introduce another voice,
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: which is the voice of AI. And for many people psychologically,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: I imagine they experience it almost like a second analyst. Now,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: that may not be the intention, but I think for people,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: AI begins to become an uncanny consultant for them. And
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know what the effect of that is going
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: to be, but I am curious about it.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: That's a great point.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: AI becomes real for people, and it sounds more and
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: more real, like a person you're talking to.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: It took me a while to get over feeling guilty
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: when Siri would say, turn left. at the next light.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: And I'd be like, no, I'm going to turn right.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Siri,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I'm disappointing you. I'm going to go a different way.
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: No, no. Yeah. I mean, that gets into all these
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: kinds of questions of projection and our natural tendency to
• 29:39
  Speaker 6: start to imagine that this thing, which has a remarkable
• 29:44
  Speaker 6: ability to create language and to speak and to appear
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: and seem like an expert in whatever you ask it,
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: and to really have to pay attention to that projection
• 29:58
  Speaker 6: factor because you it's just a machine. It really is
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: not human. It's not another psyche. It's not another soul.
• 30:07
  Speaker 6: It's just a machine. And it's, it's tricky to keep
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: that in mind when you work with it. Yes. Um, uh,
• 30:15
  Speaker 6: you know, Joseph, you probably had this experience if you've
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: worked with AI a lot or played with AI a lot. Um,
• 30:23
  Speaker 6: I have played with it a ton because the only
• 30:26
  Speaker 6: way I know how to test whether or not, uh,
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: an interpretation that the, that the, that our coach day
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: I is coming up with is any good is with
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: my own dreams because I can't really, I don't consider
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: myself expert in anybody else's dreams, probably not even mine really. But,
• 30:45
  Speaker 6: but that's my judgment or where I take my judgment from.
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: And the result of sending a whole lot of dreams
• 30:54
  Speaker 6: at it, you know, time after time and getting responses,
• 30:58
  Speaker 6: getting responses is, Positive in the sense that I really
• 31:02
  Speaker 6: begin to recognize this is just a freaking computer. You know,
• 31:06
  Speaker 6: this is not like my projections get dialed back. It's
• 31:10
  Speaker 6: just dumb, you know? So that's helpful. But another odd
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: thing that happens, we've been working on multi-dream analysis to
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: go and say, all right, pick, you know, go and say,
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: here's a symbol, find all my dreams. Like I've got
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: a couple thousand dreams in the system. Find all my
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: dreams that have this symbol and give me a multi-dream
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: analysis across all of them. Or here are all the
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: dreams in the last two weeks. Give me kind of
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: a multi-dream analysis there. And my opinion is at this point,
• 31:44
  Speaker 6: it doesn't do a very good job. It's pretty kind
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: of fluffy and too general. So we haven't released that yet.
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: But the process of sending so many dreams at an A.I.,
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: and then trying to evaluate its responses over and over
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: and over gets really exhausting in a funny way. And
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: I was talking about this with my analyst, and he
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: made a really good point, which was that it may
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: well be that your psyche recognizes that this is not
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: another soul. This is not another psyche that you're talking to.
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: And it's starting to kind of register like, let's not
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: do this too much. Don't get too tied up in
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: this because it's the balancing effort of the psyche, I think.
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: But it was a funny learning about engaging with AI
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: a lot.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: So something I've been experimenting with with AI and with dreams,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: but also with some of the transcripts from our episodes is,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: is I'll take a chat session, I'll describe what qualia
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: are or quail, and then I'll ask the AI to
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: identify the qualia of a particular idea or establish the
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: quail that are present in the transcript. And that's been
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: very interesting, super interesting to me.
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: Can you tell me what qualia means?
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: It's something that's used very heavily in robotics and particularly
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: in image recognition. So when you're asking a computer to scan,
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: let's say, 4,000 images of doors, you're asking the AI
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: to be able to understand what is universal about a
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: door such that it could look at all these different
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: pictures of doors and go, oh, that's a door. And
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: what you have to teach the computer is what is
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: the quail, which is the essential quality of doerness, which
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: to me has something to do with archetypes. What is
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: the universal of a door that you could tell a
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: computer that then it could examine every image it's ever
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: seen and tell you which one is a door? And
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: by the way, somebody told me, a NASA scientist that
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: When you go into CAPTCHA and you click everything that
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: looks like this, that, or the other thing, they sell
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: that data.
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: Oh, yeah. Right.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: Because you're identifying. Your human brain is saying this and
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: this and this and this, and then that's harvested to
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: use in this image recognition research. So thinking about that
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: in terms of even dream sequences, what are the qualia
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: of this dream? And then it'll say things like sacrifice, indignation.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: And that would be so interesting to catalog dreams based
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: on the dominant qualia of the dream, which is a
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: way of putting it together.
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think there are some really interesting things that
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: can come out of that in time. I know I
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: think I mentioned this to you some years ago when
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: we first spoke, Lisa, is a ultimately we may be
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: on the cusp of something that really hasn't existed before
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: in human history, which is a set of dreams of,
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: of a million dreams, 10 million dreams. And, you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: not now, but not too distant future. The ability to
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: look at that, you know, humanity has never had that
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: possibility before. There's never been a time where you could
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: have that kind of thing to look at and work
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: on and so forth. It won't come from Temenos because
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: ours are all encrypted. But if we ask people, hey,
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: would it be okay to look maybe someday down the road?
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: That could be a very new learning just about humans.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Well, so there's a couple of fanciful ideas that come
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: to my mind when we talk about a huge database
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: of dreams. First of all, I wonder about what we
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: would know about the state of the collective if we
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: were able to monitor vast numbers of dreams. We know
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: that dreams anticipate conscious developments. So if we had the
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: dreams of the collective, for example, could we anticipate things
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that might happen in, you know, the next month. I
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: also wonder, I mean, I think there's such wisdom in dreams.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: If we had a huge, if we had access to,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: you know, collective dream records, would there be information in
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: there about how to solve large collective problems, for example?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it fascinates me. I'm a big
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: fan of all these incredible stories about the way that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: dreams have led to the solution of scientific problems or
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: the discovery of, you know, new scientific principles or new,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: new artistic ideas, you know, the books, the paintings, the
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: scientific discoveries, the inventions that had a genesis, their genesis
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: in a dream are numerous. You know, is there some
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: thing we could know about climate change, for example, that
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: we might be able to mine from people's dreams? So
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I have these, rather aspirational curiosity about that. But it
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: also takes me to the traditional ancient practice of dream sharing.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: And a lot of traditional cultures share dreams, they may
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: share them ceremonially around times of initiation, for example, or
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: It may just be a very common practice that members
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: of the tribe wake up in the morning and share dreams.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's all kinds. This is documented in multiple
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: traditional societies. And one of the things that I love
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: about our podcast is that it seems to me that
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: we're engaging in a kind of modern sort of dream sharing.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: And you're now making that available by choice. People can
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: choose to do this on the app. And one of
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: the things that's true about dream sharing is when I've
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: run dream groups or work with dreams with larger groups
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: of people, which is something I do every month in
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: dream school, by the way, we have a live dream
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: seminar that I run, is that you will never get
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: as deep an understanding of the dream if it's just
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: one person talking about the dream. it's the multiple voices,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: even people that are not trained in dream interpretation saying,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: you know, if it were my dream, I'd be thinking
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: about this, or this reminds me of this, or something
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: that came up for me, just the richness of that.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: And I, I think that, you know, that's enabled, you know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: in your, in your app too, if you care to
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: share your dream, you could have that kind of experience.
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: Sure. The, I mean, that's a big part of, why
• 39:17
  Speaker 6: we created the ability for people to share dreams securely. Interestingly,
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: I mean, I'm a huge proponent of dream sharing. What
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: I find statistically, because inside the app, we can't see
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: anybody's dreams, but we do see, did someone share a dream?
• 39:34
  Speaker 6: Did someone not share a dream? You know, how many,
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: what percent of people in the app have ever shared
• 39:41
  Speaker 6: a dream? And it's relatively small percentage of dreams that
• 39:45
  Speaker 6: ever get shared inside the app. And I've talked to
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: people about that. And There are people who are really
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: dedicated dream people and they're used to sharing dreams and
• 39:55
  Speaker 6: like that and so forth. And then there are people
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: who are just sort of wading in and kind of like, well,
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: I've got my dreams and I find it really interesting
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: and so forth. But I wouldn't ever want anybody to
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: see anything. You know, we really have to emphasize over
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: and over and over like, no, everything's encrypted. Don't worry.
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: the weird dream about your school teacher being naked and whatever,
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: like that, nobody will ever see that. It's okay. So
• 40:19
  Speaker 6: people are often very, very shy about it, but the
• 40:23
  Speaker 6: ability to actually start to share and have input, I
• 40:27
  Speaker 6: agree is so valuable from the different perspectives that you
• 40:32
  Speaker 6: get from the, you know, different experiences of how the
• 40:38
  Speaker 6: dream came across to someone else. And then also, you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: Because the nature of dreams is that it comes from
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: our unconscious. And it's something, or a lot of the
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: Jungian work suggests that this is something that is coming
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: out of your unconscious or the collective unconscious, trying to
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: find its way into consciousness, trying to kind of balance
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: your life and adjust your life a little bit. But
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: your consciousness is always sort of resisting it. because of
• 41:11
  Speaker 6: that unconscious component, it sort of creates natural blind spots
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: by definition.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: Because it's what you specifically are unconscious of and it's
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: coming across. So it's difficult for you to see it,
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: but your friend, it might be screamingly obvious to, you know,
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: or a few people in the dream group, it might
• 41:34
  Speaker 6: be totally obvious to them, but you can't see your
• 41:38
  Speaker 6: blind spot. So that's one of my favorite parts about
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: the dream sharing kind of component is, is having people
• 41:45
  Speaker 6: begin to kind of say, Oh wait, you completely missed this.
• 41:48
  Speaker 6: Then you go, Oh, okay.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: And that sense of like, um, you know, that, Oh,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that sort of jolt of the new
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: information that you were defending against probably that the dream
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: makers trying to impart to you, that, that's the sort
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: of magic moment. We always have it, but that is,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of what I'm always trying to get
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: when I'm working with my own dreams or, or within
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: the dreams of an analyst and as well.
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: I had had a, a story that had come from
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: my analyst who heard it from Hilda Kirsch, who was
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: analyzed by Jung. And it would, was a story of
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: Jung's gardener in the sense that, you know, Jung used
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: to complain that he didn't have a Jung to go
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: to with his dreams, you know, because he was teaching
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: everybody about it. And he taught, you know, a thousand
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: people about dream interpretation. The story was that who would
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: he go to in order to kind of work on
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: a really perplexing dream of his own? And evidently, he
• 43:02
  Speaker 6: would periodically go and tell his dream to his gardener.
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: His gardener is not educated in dream work, not educated
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: in psychology, none of those things. And he'd ask his gardener,
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: what does this dream mean? And the gardener would say, well,
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: I think it means this or that or the other thing.
• 43:19
  Speaker 6: And I think Jung probably would think that, well, the
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: gardener was wrong in his interpretation of it, but he
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: was wrong in a way that was not Jung's way.
• 43:30
  Speaker 6: It was some different perspective. And by virtue of that,
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: it made Jung realize, oh, that's what I'm missing. It
• 43:39
  Speaker 6: kind of elucidated some of his own blind spots. In
• 43:43
  Speaker 6: the same way that if you're sitting looking at a
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: menu trying to decide what to order, and you've got,
• 43:48
  Speaker 6: let's see, am I going to get the hamburger or
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: am I going to get the chicken? You're going back
• 43:52
  Speaker 6: and forth. You can't quite decide. You say to the
• 43:55
  Speaker 6: person you're with, I can't decide between the hamburger and
• 43:58
  Speaker 6: the chicken. And they say, oh, you should get the chicken.
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: You're like, got it, I'm going to get the hamburger.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: You know, it's just like it snaps you into something.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: So what kind of feedback are you getting from people
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: who are using your app? And is there a way
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: for them to give you feedback?
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we have an alias called feedback at teminostream.com. And
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: we frequently have little prompts throughout the app. Hey, you know,
• 44:25
  Speaker 6: tell us what to think. The feedback has been Pretty
• 44:30
  Speaker 6: darn good, really. On the Apple Store, we have a 4.9
• 44:36
  Speaker 6: out of 5 rating. And I really should take a
• 44:42
  Speaker 6: lot of those reviews and put them somewhere and show
• 44:45
  Speaker 6: people because they're stunningly positive. I think the feedback we
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: get most consistently is people like the insights that come
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: out of it. And the kind of prompts and that
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: it gets them thinking about dreams in ways that, you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: in ways that they hadn't before. And so I think
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: to me, that's if we're doing that, we're doing good.
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: You know, that's that's our thing.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the dark side for a little bit.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: We don't want to let you off too easy.
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: I know, of course.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: First of all, and Joseph, I love that you brought
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: up sort of like how does this voice change in analysis,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: but the idea of the temenos is also, I think,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: relevant in the discussion of dream sharing, which is, I mean,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: I think it could be useful to stick your dream
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: on a public platform. And of course, people do this
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: in places like Reddit anyway all the time now. It's like,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I had this dream, what do you think? You know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: and some of what might comes back could be useful
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: in just the way you were just talking about kind
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: of Jung's gardener. You know, it's like maybe it's really ill-informed,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: but something, it shakes something loose or it makes you
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: think about it in a new way. But there's also
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: something to be said for having this dream, which I
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: always think of dreams as sacred. And there's something to
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: be said for just kind of putting it out there
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: into the world and letting anything wash back at you.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: which feels like potentially a little chaotic. It feels a
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: little bit not sullied, but it's been shared in a
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: way where there is no temenos. I mean, obviously.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: It could feel manhandled. It could feel misunderstood. It can
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: be confusing to receive input that seems overly tangential. It
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: can also be very exciting, of course. And then people
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: are free then to make comments that could be both
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: disturbing or hurtful. upsetting to somebody, particularly in an environment
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: where the comments aren't curated. So there's an unpredictability in
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: just tossing one's dreams out to the relative, the public.
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: On ours, we really try and emphasize to be kind
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: that people, you share a dream and you don't really
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: know what it is that you're sharing.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great point.
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: One of the most intimate things you can possibly share,
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: like in some ways more so than like a nude
• 47:13
  Speaker 6: or something.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: And you don't even realize what's in there necessarily. So,
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: you know, we try and kind of caution people a bit.
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: And also we do things like, you know, ensure that
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: people under a certain age can't share dreams publicly because
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: we just don't want to go there at all. So, yeah,
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: that's one of the challenging parts. And, you know, statistically,
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: when I look at the people who use the app,
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: a very small, like there's a portion of people who
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: share dreams, but there's a much smaller portion of people
• 47:51
  Speaker 6: who share dreams publicly. And I think people tend to
• 47:55
  Speaker 6: have that sense. There's a little bit of, I mean,
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: I can speculate on motivations of doing that. Some of
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: it is an ask, you know, a request for input
• 48:08
  Speaker 6: and help and so forth where people can't get anything else.
• 48:15
  Speaker 6: We don't curate every or we don't, you know, moderate
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: every comment. But the system has if anybody sees something
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: that's off base or out of whack, it's got a
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: reporting system and then we get alerted and like, OK,
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: that's out. And then we'll take a look at it
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: and take it down. It's one of those things I
• 48:36
  Speaker 6: don't quite know what to do with. I understand people's
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: reticence about it. There are a whole bunch of people
• 48:43
  Speaker 6: who absolutely hate the idea of sharing publicly, and they've
• 48:48
  Speaker 6: given me some serious feedback. To the extent that we've
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: actually looked at, and we might still do it, taking
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: the public section and putting it behind a, You have
• 49:02
  Speaker 6: to click into the public section and say, okay, I
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: know this is public and so forth. People want to
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: do that. And I kind of feel like I'm not
• 49:13
  Speaker 6: sure if we can give them a safe place to
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: do it in, I'm not sure I want to take
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: that away from.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Them.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: My other concern, obviously, is which, you know, it's the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: whole thing with AI. It's like, what is AI going
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: to do eventually? And there are already companies that are basically,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: you know, training AI to become therapists, you know, it's
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: like you can, the AI can administer cognitive behavioral protocols
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: or whatever. And of course, on a personal level, this is,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm, I'm affronted by it. And, and, you know,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: obviously I have a financial stake in making sure that
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: they don't make a good, um, AI Jungian analyst, but
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: it also, I think more deeply, it offends my sense of,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, just, just the kind of sacredness of existence,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: you know? So I get that the AI is a
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: little clunky right now. And like I said, I've, I
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: found it useful, not so much. And like, ah, the jury,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: it just told me what my dream means, but more
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: like it may be shifted.
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: Oh, okay.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't think about it quite like that. Let me
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: follow that trail. But, you know, we know that AI
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: gets better and better and better and better. And will
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: it someday be able to deliver, you know, pretty good,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: let's say, Jungian interpretation? And how does that damage the
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: soul of the world to turn that function over to machines?
• 50:48
  Speaker 6: The thing I often come back to is there's a
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: part of, I think it's psychology, the psychology of transference,
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: where Jung... It says, read all the books, learn all
• 51:01
  Speaker 6: the theories, know all the ways of working with a client,
• 51:07
  Speaker 6: a patient. But then when you meet with the patient,
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: just be one, then forget all that and be one
• 51:16
  Speaker 6: soul talking to another soul inside basically the temenos. And
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: that is something that the AI will never be able
• 51:24
  Speaker 6: to do. We are a language. generating you know species
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: like were the word you know the in the beginning
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: there was the word like language is so critical to
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: us and to who we are and now this thing
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: that is so good at language you know and is
• 51:44
  Speaker 6: getting better and better we will engage with but it's
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: you know it's still intellectual way of relating and it
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: sort of leaves out the the human to human, the
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: soul to soul piece. So, you know, I think I
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: could say before, I think your psyche will always have
• 52:06
  Speaker 6: a bit of a sense of that. And it might
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: well be that what comes across and becomes clearer is
• 52:14
  Speaker 6: that there is that psyche presence, soul to soul presence
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: that is the essence of an analytical session and working
• 52:25
  Speaker 6: with a therapist, that it's a human to human thing.
• 52:29
  Speaker 6: That in fact, it doesn't matter how smart the AI is,
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: you don't get the same healing kind of equation that
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: comes out of working with another person. You know, in
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: the same way that, okay, AI can create art now. Well, okay,
• 52:45
  Speaker 6: that's not actually going to replace artists. Like artists, like
• 52:49
  Speaker 6: real art, AI, I don't think can do that. I
• 52:52
  Speaker 6: think there's a soul kind of component of that.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope you're right. I think, you know, expertise
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: in dream interpretation, like many, many fields, in part comes
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: from what feels like intuition. So I hear a dream
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: and immediately I've got a couple things and I follow
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: it and then I say it and the person goes, oh,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like, oh, okay, I guess that was
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: a hit. And it feels a little like magic. But
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I know that, you know, Jung said that intuition is
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: perception via the unconscious. And one of the things that
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: the unconscious is very, very, very good at is pattern recognition.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: I believe it's true that there's pretty much no chess
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: grandmaster who will ever beat the best computer because, you know,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: being really, really good at chess is about pattern recognition.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: And you don't know you're doing it. It happens below
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: the threshold of consciousness after a certain point. In the beginning,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: you spend time memorizing openings and memorizing end games. But eventually,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: there's just so much in here that your brain is
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: working like a little computer, but it's never going to
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: be as good as the AI is getting. I could
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: see that it would be possible, though it feels like
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: it would be impossible. I can see that it would
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: be possible. that eventually the AI will get so good
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: at pattern recognition and looking at the symbols and the
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: archetypal material and even the synchronicities and be able to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: do what it's taken people like me and Joseph decades
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: to learn to do. And that's a little scary.
• 54:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I could understand that. I think to some extent
• 54:43
  Speaker 6: the entire world is looking at that kind of same
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: situation coming. It's going to move us to really pay
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: attention to how it develops and really differentiate between what
• 54:59
  Speaker 6: is the strict pattern recognition component, which computers are just
• 55:04
  Speaker 6: going to be better at us then, and that other
• 55:08
  Speaker 6: component that is more psyche, that is more creative, that
• 55:14
  Speaker 6: is more soul side, that in my opinion, that's where
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: it healing comes from. I don't think that working a
• 55:21
  Speaker 6: ton with an AI model on dream interpretation, I'm just
• 55:26
  Speaker 6: not sure that that, I think it can give you
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: good insights and self-reflection. I'm not sure that that gives
• 55:33
  Speaker 6: you the kind of healing that a therapeutic relationship does.
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: You know, a therapeutic relationship seems like it's about remodeling
• 55:46
  Speaker 6: or adapting the way you relate to another human in
• 55:52
  Speaker 6: better ways and in whole ways and so forth. It's
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: my hope, like I said, it's my hope that it
• 55:59
  Speaker 6: becomes clearer and clearer to us the value of the
• 56:04
  Speaker 6: human's ability and certain human's ability to do that kind
• 56:08
  Speaker 6: of thing. But in the meantime, my perspective on it is,
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: In the U.S., for example, there are 6,000, 9,000 Jungian,
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: trained Jungian analysts in a population of 300 million. I mean,
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: there just aren't enough. My thought is I want to
• 56:31
  Speaker 6: get more people engaged with dreams, with these ideas, with
• 56:38
  Speaker 6: the unconscious.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: I just, you know.
• 56:41
  Speaker 6: These are trade-offs. I mean, are these deals with the
• 56:43
  Speaker 6: devil that we're talking about? But technology, to some extent,
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: is always that.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Well, and I totally get that. And I have the
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: same kind of dilemma about it. And when I play
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: with your app or the elsewhere app, it is like, oh, yeah,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: this is a way to kind of deliver some of
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: this to more people. But I just want to say
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: the thing about deals with the devil is, you know,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: they always come back to bite you. You know, and
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: this is the way our whole society relates to technology, right,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: is we develop it first and then ask questions later
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: about what the downstream effects might be. And it's like
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: that horse is already out of the barn. So, for example,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: you know, social media, well, it's like, well, we can
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: do that. It's sort of like we can do this,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: so let's do it. And then now there's just this,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: you know, as far as I'm, it looks to me
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: like there is overwhelming data that social media is not
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: good for the mental health of kids and teens, for example.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: So it's like, we might, we might do this because
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: we can, and there's no breaks on it. I mean,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: you know, and, and then, and then what, what are
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: the possible downstream effects? I mean, and there's the whole,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: you can't put the genie back in the bottle thing.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, It's like, if we could stop it,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: should we? You know, I think that that's, I don't,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: I think we can't, you know, and I remember talking
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: to you about it and at some point you said, yeah,
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: but it's coming. It's like, it's coming. So, but it
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: seems to me that it's important to even just entertain, like,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: if we could stop this, should we? And I don't
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: know that, I don't know that I, I don't know
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: that I know how I feel about that. I think
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: I feel kind of complicated about that.
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, Joseph, I'll bet you've watched The AI Dilemma,
• 58:35
  Speaker 6: which is put together by the same guys who did
• 58:37
  Speaker 6: The Social Dilemma, Aza Raskin and Tristan Harris. Really, really,
• 58:44
  Speaker 6: really good, good stuff, but really scary. Really, really concerning
• 58:50
  Speaker 6: about what's coming and how it's changing. Absolutely scares me
• 58:54
  Speaker 6: as well. All right, I just want to keep an
• 58:58
  Speaker 6: eye on it. Just watch it and understand it. And
• 59:01
  Speaker 6: the more I can play with it, the better I
• 59:06
  Speaker 6: can sort of anticipate what's coming and what the next is.
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: thing is um and and try and keep you know
• 59:14
  Speaker 6: some responsible guardrails on it because the problem with social
• 59:18
  Speaker 6: media is the algorithmic aim yeah erase it like just
• 59:28
  Speaker 6: undermines kid's well-being or in an adult's well-being as well.
• 59:34
  Speaker 6: And it's such a, you know, the incentive structure is aimed,
• 59:39
  Speaker 6: you know, like a gun to your head. I mean,
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: it's just, it's a terrible, terrible incentive structure and it
• 59:46
  Speaker 6: just runs. And that isn't even about the technology so
• 59:50
  Speaker 6: much as it is about something that people don't really
• 59:53
  Speaker 6: see and understand. And yeah, we're going to have Lots
• 59:58
  Speaker 6: and lots of problems and lots of issues coming out
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 6: of this stuff, without a doubt.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: I've been rereading a book by Fromm called Escape from Freedom,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: which is a wonderful book written by an old Freudian analyst.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: And all of the wonderful technology that we are exposed to,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: including artificial intelligence, but the automation of innumerable things, the
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: incredible seduction, to give up our own ability to engage something,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: to think through something, to make our own choices, even
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: if they're wildly idiosyncratic about any number of things, that
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: there is an incredible seduction to want to have someone,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: something else, someone else do it. You know, it goes
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: to that fantasy that if I won the lottery and
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: I had a billion dollars, I wouldn't even bathe myself.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: I'd have people feeding me grapes with their own hand.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: And the fantasy is, well, then I would literally like
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: be a baby. That's the ultimate fantasy is that I'd
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: just kind of loll around. People rub my feet all day,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: which is incredibly seductive. Yeah, I saw you smile. That's
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: a nice– Robots that rub your feet. It'll be a
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: fleet of them. So anyway– But that is really the
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: existential piece of it. That is the deep, deep, deep
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: piece of all of technology is when we yield to
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: something that's going to do it for us, fill in
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: the blank, what does that do to the human psyche?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: And of course, there's great benefit. I mean, look at
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: all the machines, the cotton gin for that matter. These
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: machines have taken some onerous tasks out of human beings' hands.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: But now we're in a really different place where there's
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: a possibility that we can program machines to tell us
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: what to eat, tell us how to cook everything. Right now,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: people are wanting AI to take all the technology they
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: can and tell them exactly how to exercise so they'll
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: get optimal results. So this idea of giving away choicefulness
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: because we're sure that the other is going to be
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: wiser than we are and give us something better than
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: we could imagine for ourselves. And that idea of optimization is,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: I think, in many ways behind this. And the idea
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: of optimization is exclusively in the realm of ego.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: That there are enormous.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: Sub-optimal decisions that we have made in our own lives.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: We don't even have to look into antiquity. Sub-optimal decisions
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: that redirected the course of our lives in such a
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: way that we could actually become who we really are.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see. I see.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: I see.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: The right way to wholeness is full of fateful detours
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: and wrong turns.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: That's right.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Right. You have to.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: I put all the data into the AI and I
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: should be an accountant or I... This is the exact
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: way to do this, that, or something else. And it
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: all makes very logical sense. And yet, it was failing
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: that test in accounting school that made you go, damn it,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: I guess I'm going to have to go and be
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: an artist instead. And then you became a sculptor. But
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: that's really what you wanted the whole time. But if
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: you had optimized what your ego had decided to do
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: at 18, you may never have made that fateful error.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: which liberated you from the wrong direction and forced you
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: to have to consider something else that your ego would
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: not have chosen otherwise. The fateful mistakes that we're going
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: to be removing from life and the fantasy that that's
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: going to make it really great.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: So we are in the realm of the myth of
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Prometheus and kind of this incredible technological ability to do
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: these things that we're only probably just beginning to even imagine.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: And what does that mean? You know, Prometheus stole fire
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: from the gods and gave it to humans, and it
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: was supposed to just belong to the gods. And it
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: seems like with AI, it's another thing that we're taking
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: from the gods and giving to humans. And that can
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: have some incredibly positive effects, but it can also be
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: quite destructive always. Always these things are. I want to
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: share because it seems relevant that I recently had a
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: dream that I think is related to this. I'm not
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: going to share the whole dream, but I'll share an
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: image from the dream. The image was that there was
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: a colony on the moon. There was a lunar colony.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: And it was all very, very exciting. But I was thinking,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I was trying to understand that image. And of course,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: a colony on the moon would be entirely dependent on
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: the Earth to provision it. And it would be kind
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: of sterile. And it also, it really is this image
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: of like so much that's kind of out there that
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: isn't really kind of literally grounded in the Earth. And
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: I think the dream possibly after sitting with it and
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: working with it actually relates to the dream book that Joseph, Deb,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: and I have been writing because one of the things
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: that we've done, I think we've done this and I'm
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: both excited and maybe a little bit trepidatious about it
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: as well, is really created a protocol for working with
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: your dreams to the extent that it may have, what's
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: the word I'm looking for? It may have kind of,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: it might have taken the mystery out of it a
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: little bit. So I think it will be very effective
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: at helping people work with their own dreams, but it
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: also may have demystified it a bit too much. It
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: might be, or maybe that's the fear that I have
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: in the dream. There was a kind of compensatory image
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: of a talking rat in that was, I think, hopeful. But,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: you know, there is this sense, it's like, wow, you know,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: if you, like, we would never want to, and of
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: course Jung says we can't, but, you know, Jung says
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: you can't empty the unconscious, but could AI empty the unconscious?
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 6: Oh, boy.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I really doubt that. Well, I have great faith
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 6: in the ability of the unconscious, particularly the collective unconscious,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: to come up and grab us by the nape of
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 6: the neck when we're not looking and shake everything. Joseph,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 6: your idea of we lose the fateful mistakes, boy, I
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 6: think I would never underestimate the psyche and the collective
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 6: unconscious ability to go and say, oh, yeah, you guys think?
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 6: you know what's going on? I mean, this is Sorcerer's
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 6: Apprentice stuff.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: Watch.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 6: Watch what happens. We'll give you some fateful mistakes.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: It's Jurassic Park.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: But then it's so destructive, right?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: True.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it could be. You know, to your point, that
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 6: if we just go forward saying, yes, optimize, yes, more, yes, this, yes, yes,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 6: that it's going to come and say, no, all right,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 6: now you get Jurassic Park.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: Now you get, you know. There's that famous interviewing quote
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: from Jung. I think it was a good housekeeping magazine
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: or something that he was being interviewed by. And he says,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: God is the name by which I designate all things,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things, which
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: alter my plans and intentions and change the course of
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: my life for better or for worse.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 6: That was good.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: That's a great one.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: And how, how hard we're working. make sure that never happens. Exactly.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: And I get that. I mean, who wants violent interruptions
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: to one life? But it goes to what you were saying, John, is, well,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: we thwart the unconscious by optimizing and having this wonderful
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: logical algorithms, you know, inform us in multiple fantastical ways.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: And how might the unconscious or the God within the
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: unconscious take hold of us to violently disrupt that because
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: it becomes more and more difficult to reach us and
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: to what lengths.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: The unconscious go to reclaim its place that's sobering and.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 6: You know there's a bit of irony in that in
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: that you know I tend to look to my dreams
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 6: as try and figure out the ways in which my
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: unconscious is trying to slap me around or adjust me
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: or like, Oh no, you're going the wrong way. You're
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 6: being goofy in this way or that way. Then you apply,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 6: you know, an AI in there to try and further
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 6: optimize the understanding of those dreams and the symbols and
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 6: so forth. And so in what way will that, so
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 6: it's wild experiments.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: It is. And I applaud you for conducting the experiment
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: because I think, I mean, truly, life is about experimentation.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: It is the human venture. Eat this, see what happens.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: Farm that, see what happens. Build this, see what happens.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: And sometimes great things happen and sometimes it's tough. But
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: I very much like that spirit of experimentation that is
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: alive and well in you.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 6: Thank you. My analyst, when I undertook this, kept telling me, like,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 6: it's impossible. You can't do it. This is impossible, what
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 6: you're trying to do. You should do it anyway, but
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: it's impossible. And he's been an analyst for 50 years.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 6: I'm like, and the more I do it, the more
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: I realize, he's probably right. But do it anyway. See
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 6: what happens.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: I want to bring up a couple ways that I
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: think that, at least right now... it's different working with
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: an analyst versus working with an AI in terms of
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: dream interpretation. So, so one of the, one of the
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: ways is that, you know, and talking about the healing moment,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: when you're talking about a dream with an analyst, one
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: of the things that happens when you discuss a dream
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: in an analysis is, you know, for, I might say, well,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: this reminds me of this. And this reminds me that
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: the real work that I'm doing is making connections between
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: what the dream is saying and what I know about
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: that person's psyche. So it's like you have a tent,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: you know, this is your people pleasing tendency. You tend,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the dream really shows that you're doing this
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: again in this other context, you're giving something away and
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: I can tie it back to the person's childhood and
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: I can tie it to other dreams and I can
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: tie it to tie it to their life situation right now.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: And so it's, it's the way that when you work
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: with dreams and analysis, it's very different obviously than what
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: we do in the podcast because it's deeply tied in
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: to with your psyche, your current situation, but also just
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: your general psychic situation and how profound that can be.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: The other thing is that there's something about, and I
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: don't think this happens on Zoom in the same way,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: so I prefer to work in person. When you're sitting
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: in the room with someone, there is a field that
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: develops and neurobiology, I mean, we think of it as
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: a field because that's how it feels. But neurobiology is,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: you know, confirming that something is happening between my nervous
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: system and the nervous system of the person sitting across
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: from me, at least some of the times, you know.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: And there can be this place where we reach kind
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: of co-regulation. And that's the unconscious to unconscious connection, I think,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: or it's related to that, that Jung talked about. And
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: so when you're talking, you know, I've had sessions both
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: being the analyst and being the analysand where we're talking
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: about a dream and it's like the air is shimmering,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, metaphorically, but it feels, it feels
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: really different. It feels different in my body, you know,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: and it's like, it's like something really moved. And I don't,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't think an AI will ever be
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: able to do that.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 6: And we need to differentiate between what AI is doing
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 6: now and what AI will do. And we're really talking
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 6: about an anticipation of what it might do.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 6: Which is the right way to think about it because
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 6: it's moving so quickly.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: Really fast.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: You really can't take comfort in what it's unable to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 6: do right now. That's right. I would agree with that completely.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 6: The other side of it too is that, and this
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 6: is kind of that soul to soul thing as well.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 6: There are things that occur in the intellect that, And
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 6: there's sort of knowledge transfer that, you know, I'm sure
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 6: you've had clients that you can work with and you
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 6: can tell them a hundred times, hey, you're doing this again.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 6: This is what's happening. You could explain their complexes, their
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 6: this and that, and lay it all out for them.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 6: But that doesn't change them. That doesn't heal them. I
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 6: think the AI could become very useful in the sense
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 6: of being very good at quickly analyzing this and that
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 6: and that and that and that and then you've got
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 6: a piece of paper that says okay all these things
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 6: but you could give me that paper about me and
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 6: it wouldn't change me like i'd be like oh well
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 6: okay maybe i should think about that a little more
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 6: but it's you know it's it's the difference between an
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 6: intellectual understanding something and and like a felt understanding of
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 6: something which seems to come from between people And in
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 6: my experience of analysis, that that's the thing that, and
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 6: this is because I'm also like what you'd call a
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 6: thinking type. Like I'm always trying to be like, okay,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 6: because if I keep thinking, it doesn't actually get me anywhere.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 6: I just go further in my imbalance towards thinking. Analysis
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 6: to me seems so fundamentally about reworking of my unconscious
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: relationship to another person in kind of new ways and
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 6: I don't think AI is ever going to do that.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the AI is never going to be able
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: to interpret the transference.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 6: Not at all.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: Because it is fundamentally an interpersonal experience.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: Well, the thing that I also hope people will take
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: from our conversation is they shouldn't ignore this, that all
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: of us have to figure out our experiences, individual relationships
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: to things like artificial intelligence and apps and devices and
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: that pretending they don't exist, taking a kind of Luddite
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: attitude is going to leave you at a gross disadvantage
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: and in some ways make you more vulnerable to the
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: technology because as it integrates into our daily lives, you
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: won't be able to track it and you won't understand
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: its possible influence. So whether or not we like it
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: or we're scared of it or we're thrilled by it
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: or we have enormous dark or light fantasies, we have
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: to put our hands on it and play with the
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: dials and learn something about it so then we can
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: have an educated opinion about it. And we're not just
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: depending on some kind of TikTok child telling you what
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: to think about something. So we need to conduct our
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: own experiments, which are very much available right now.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 6: Drilling on something that you said, Joseph, about influence. My
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 6: fears about AI are fundamentally about its ability to influence us.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 6: And the only way to counter that is serious attention,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 6: conscious attention to influence. yourself and the way that you're
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 6: feeling and responding to all of these things that are
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 6: starting to come and increasingly coming. I mean, it's sort
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: of social media. We click and we click and we
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 6: click and it's an algorithm that's read all the other
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: things that I've clicked. So it knows what I like,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 6: knows what I react to, knows what I don't like.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 6: And it's trying to get me to respond all the time.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 6: AI is going to take that up a hundred notches
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 6: and And it's going to be incredibly important to try
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 6: and be aware of that. So keep some consciousness of
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 6: that influence and the way we're being influenced. And I
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 6: think you're right that that's, that's the game as it
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 6: comes is to really watch it carefully.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: Reality is medicinal. And so we have to face it
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: and find it over and over again. And that we
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: are healthier in all dimensions when we, move towards as
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: much as we can know what is real.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: You know, I think to maybe paraphrase what you both
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: have just been saying is, you know, the inner world
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: is sacred and it's a rich kind of ecosystem. And
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: what's frightening is to think about inviting tech, I guess,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: into the inner world and letting it kind of, you know,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: mine the inner world and exploit the inner world for
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: profit the same way that we've mind and exploited the
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: outer ecosystem. So there's also been this, I think, absolutely
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: terrifying technology where apparently you can, I don't know, hook
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: electrodes up to someone's brain and then see their dream.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: The computer is able to read the brain activity and
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: know that you were dreaming about a giraffe. And so,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: you know, the sanctity of the inner world is on
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: the threshold of being violated.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 6: I have a couple thoughts about that. On the one hand,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 6: I was a little not relieved, but a little reassured
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 6: in the sense that, Oh, good. Now that's a good
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: answer to all those people who say dreams are just,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 6: you're staring at a staticky television set and making stuff
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 6: up like that. That's, that's, it's a little bit like
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 6: word association experiment experiment. Hey, this is actual proof of,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: you know, of the unconscious and its influence. This is
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 6: proof that, Dreams are real. So that's kind of the upside.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: You really were looking at a giraffe.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 6: Right. Exactly. Like we saw, here's what your dream report is.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: And we saw that you were looking at a giraffe too.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 6: It is pretty terrifying to imagine that that's basically mind reading.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 6: It's not basically, it's explicitly mind reading. On the other hand,
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 6: it doesn't, just because they can come up with the
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 6: images that your brain is coming up with, doesn't mean
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 6: they know what it means. And it doesn't mean they're
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 6: going to understand what that, you still have to have,
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 6: you know, a real interpretation of the dream. I mean,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: you can go, you can go dark fast.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: Really fast. It's pretty, it's pretty, I mean, and it's
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: somewhat fun to imagine it's the stuff of, you know,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: great sci-fi, but it also is a little. I'm thinking of,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: you know, one of my favorite books that I mentioned
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: all the time on the podcast is The Master and
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: His Emissary by Ian McGilchrist. And, you know, that the
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: title of the book comes from, I think it's a
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: story from Nietzsche. You know, McGilchrist says the emissary has,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: the emissary is meant to serve the master. But what's
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: happened is the emissary has betrayed the master. And he
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: talks about the right hemisphere versus the left hemisphere. And
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: the right hemisphere is the master. supposed to be served
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: by the left hemisphere, but it's kind of gotten flipped.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: Einstein said something extraordinarily similar about the rational mind and
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: the imagination, saying almost the same thing. And it seems
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: to me that if we say that the dream maker
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: is the master and tech is the emissary, we need
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: to make sure that the master doesn't get betrayed, and
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: that this is all in service to the dream maker,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: or aka, in my book anyway, the self, and that
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: this is serving the agenda of the self.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely agree. I mean, it reminds me of the
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: Auden quote, we are lived by powers we pretend to understand.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 6: It's that same thing. Although Auden's perspective is a little
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 6: different in that he's a little bit more like where
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 6: the master is really in charge.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could, you could imagine that both ways.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 6: Um, McGilchrist is saying, no, no, no, no, no, don't, don't,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 6: don't get this mixed up.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: So maybe it's time for us to transition into a dream.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Jung said that dreams are the guiding words of
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: the soul. Dream School is our 12-month self-paced online program
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: that teaches you how to understand these important messages from
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: the unconscious. We break down the essential skills, teach you
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: how to apply them, and offer opportunities for practice. You
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: can become part of a vibrant community, join a dream group,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: or share your dream with other students. There are monthly
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: live Q & As with Joseph. a chance for one-on-one
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: time with Deb in her office hours, and monthly dream
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: seminars with me, Lisa. Visit our website, thisjungianlife.com, to learn
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: more or sign up.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: Today's dreamer is a 38-year-old female who is early in
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: her career as a therapist. And she titles this dream,
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: The Map and currency. I'm in a big open space
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: that feels like a tented shelter, and there are benches
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: for sitting in a sort of circle. I'm talking to
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: someone who seems to know me from when I was
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: in an MFA creative writing program. He says, yes, we
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: were in the same class with Professor something or other
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: in his course about dreams. He loved you. You were
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: his favorite. I'm surprised and a little doubtful because I
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: don't remember the class at all, though I try to
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: remember and think I might be remembering it. Then I
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: notice there is a group of people sitting farther away
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: all wearing the same clothes, and I realize they're in
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: a cult. It doesn't alarm me. An older woman walks
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: up to me and she asks for me to pay
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: my entrance fee. I pull out a colorful pouch, and
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: I apologize for only having foreign currency, which seems silly.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: I hand her coins, and she doesn't seem to be
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: too worried. I pull out a colorful bill, and when
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: she takes it, it unfolds into an old-world map. She
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: points to the ocean on the map and reads to
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 3: me poems that I wrote. They're small and beautiful and joyful.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: I feel moved and surprised. I find a nickel and
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: quarter and give it to her. She says, Well, that's
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: a K-hole lift now, isn't it? Then I woke up.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 3: For context, she writes, I've been experiencing what feels like
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: a big positive transformation. It's included an increase in energy, confidence,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: and excitement for the future. Her main feelings in the
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: dream were confusion, caution, curiosity, and surprise, and then a
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: few of her associations are, I associate the tent with
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: a revival and the older woman as an inner guide.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: I associate the professor with intellect and success. The map
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: felt like my mind, and the ocean felt like hidden depths.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: So I had to look up K-hole. Did you know
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: what that was?
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: I don't, but please enlighten us. Okay.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: This is what AI says. No, this is what the
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: internet says. It's slang for experiences related to ketamine or
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: the effects of ketamine. K-hole refers to the out-of-body near-death experience.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Ah, okay. Okay.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Ketamine induces dose-related effects that include distortion of time
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: and space, hallucinations, and mild dissociative shifts. During K, whole
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: users experience an enhanced detachment from the environment, resulting in
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: an inability to respond to surroundings and move their bodies functionally. Wow.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: Didn't know any of that. Okay. Overall, this is a
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: positive dream with positive emotions, especially toward the end. The
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: dream seems to be, the dream maker seems to be
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: kind of affirming that the dreamer is on the right path.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: there was, there was a lot of really interesting imagery
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: in it. I, I, I mean a lot, but just
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: a couple of things. I thought it was interesting to
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: pay the entrance fee, which points to this sort of
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: moment of transformation or initiation. You know, it's not, transformation
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: is not free. You have to, you have to pay to, uh, to,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: to be transformed. Um, so she, there's an entrance fee
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting that it's, um, The currency is foreign.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: This is foreign to ego consciousness. So it is far
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: away from ego. So I'll toss it back to you, Joseph,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: but those were a couple of the first things that
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: I looked at.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: I'm assuming when she says, I pull out a colorful bill,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: that she means a currency.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got that too.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: So I feel a little more suspicious. the dream. And
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering if it is something that's trickier, because in
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: the end, based on what you learned about the idea
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: of K-hole, she seems to be suggesting that all of
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: this fantastical feeling could just be like a drug-induced phantasmagoria.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: That's interesting, yeah.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: And when I think about my early life as a
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: therapist in the beginning, it can be slightly in and euphoric.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, people come to you, they trust you immediately,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 3: they disclose things, maybe they have remarkable emotional releases, and
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: as a new therapist, that seems incredibly exciting, inflating, euphoric.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: So I'm wondering if the cautionary note is that there's
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: a little too much shine, a little too much in
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: the big, positive transformation that could be a bit of
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: that golden child syndrome. And the gentle inference there at
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: the end is, you're going to come down from this trip. Yeah.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: And then therapy is going to just be hard work.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: Right. And that I think I like what you said.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the fact that she gives
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: her a nickel and a quarter and it's like, oh,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: 30 cents, you know, it's like, oh, okay. You know,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: that's all it's worth. There is a little bit of that,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: that the old woman's like, yeah, this is, you're going
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: to come back down to earth. I thought it was interesting.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: I'd be so curious about the guy. If this is
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: a real person, the person who seems to know me
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: from when I was in the MFA creative writing program,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: I'd be curious if that was a real person. And also,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: was there a real professor there? The dream seems to
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: reference this MFA program. I'm making up that she wrote
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: poetry in the MFA program or assuming that, but somehow
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: the MFA program had a course in the dream anyway
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: about dreams. There's some kind of reaching back. I'm assuming
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: she also has a master's degree now in mental health, presumably,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: or has studied it to some extent. But the dream
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: is really pointing back to this time when she was
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: in the creative writing program.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: And that she was loved and favored. But she can't
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: quite remember it, which is, I think, good because there's
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: perhaps an aggrandized declaration there. And something in the ego goes,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: wait a minute, I'm not totally sure about this. Although
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: it would be easy to get swept up in all
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: of that. The idea that there's a creative writing program,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: that could be also an inference that she is creatively
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: writing a narrative in her life at the moment that
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: is just very luminous and lovely and colorful and that
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: may or may not be well-oriented to reality. But it
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean it's a terrible thing.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: Well, what comes up for me around your very good point,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: I think, about inflation is that we need a little
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: inflation when we start off on a new journey.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: So, you know, when I remember the first, you know,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: Jungian seminar I went to, I was like, you know,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: the clouds parted and I floated home. And, you know,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: five years later, it's like, oh, God, I've got to
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: write this case up. And it wasn't so magical anymore.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: But it is important sometimes for things to feel very
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: magical and luminous in the beginning. And this may be
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: kind of where she is. And there's this colorful pouch
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: and this colorful bill. So I think it's a both and.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: Both that, yeah, the shine's going to come off this
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: But then there's something real here. There really is a
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: wonderful kind of ocean and a map that shows this
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: beautiful world and this currency that is now foreign to
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: you but may not always be so.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: And I think the medicine in the dream is gentle,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: that the dream ego thinks, I'm a little surprised, I'm
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: a little doubtful, this seems a little silly. And that's
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: probably how we should orient to an inflation when we
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: discover it. It's okay. I'm just being a little bit silly.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 3: I should probably just be a little doubtful about how
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: bright and shiny everything is. But we don't want to
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: attack the inflation. But we can be good-natured towards it.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: Well, she doesn't just feel silly, though. She says, I
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: feel moved. And that, to me, is important because I
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: think that's That's where there is something real at the
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: kernel of this. And then she gives the old woman
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: a nickel and a quarter, and the old woman kind
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: of makes this comment that, you know, I think you're right,
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: could sort of be seen as a little bit cautionary
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: or dismissive or something like that.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: Well, I was picking up some of the descriptive words
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: that are scattered throughout that way. But I agree with you.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: It's not that it isn't meaningful, and the medicine is
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: just a little... Let's just cool it off a little bit.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: Let's not crush it.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: Just like you don't want your teenage kid to not
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: feel confident, but you also don't want them to be
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: six feet off the ground. Right. There has to be
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: like a middle space of feeling good but not unrealistic.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: Joseph, what are your thoughts? I mean, so there's the
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: tented shelter, which she associated with revival. And then there's
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: this cult.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The cult of being a therapist was my first thought.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: The way we're all wearing white clothes when no one's
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 3: looking at our conferences. She's being asked to join this
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: select group of people that surround a particular idea or
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: a leader. That's a school of therapy. Maybe Carl Rogers
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: is at the center of the cult, or Freud, or Jung,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 3: or Skinner, or something like that. So being invited into that,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: I also think that white is the albedo. So there's
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: something about.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: Wait, is she saying, are they wearing white?
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: She just says they're all wearing the same clothes.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 3: Oh, isn't that funny? I made it into white clothes,
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: so I need to take that out. That was an intrusion.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: But there is something about a similarity between them.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: And again, I think we could understand that... you know,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: according to your thesis, that there's a little warning, you know,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: that it can be so seductive to enter a new
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: field and just want to adopt all of the beliefs
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: that everyone has. And just, well, you know, you have
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: to be careful that you don't tip over into a
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: place where your own judgment just goes away. You know,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: I think that that can happen to us when we're
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: And part of that, I think, is the revival tent.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: I love the idea of evangelizing.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: And, you know, this Jungian life, we are like Jungian evangelists,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: you know, and it's just true. You know, you fall
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 3: in love with something and you're like waving the red
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 3: book around like it's a Bible, you know, asking people
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: to come up to the altar call and submit a
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 3: dream or something like that. So, I mean, I get
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: it totally.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: Guilty, guilty as charged.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: Guilty as charged. You know, so like I feel really
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: sympathetic to all of these. I totally relate to them.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: This kind of swell of feeling we get caught up in.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: Well, one of our colleagues, she likes to joke that,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: you know, when your family hears you talk about Jungian training,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: they want to hire, you know, a cult interventionist.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 3: A deep programmer.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 3: So it's good that she has energy. It's good she's
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 3: starting with something new. It's good she feels good. And
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 3: it's good there's a little tiny bit of doubt around it.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 3: Not squelching, just like a little teaspoon of, well, maybe
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: I should keep a tiny critical analysis of these things.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: So, John, what did the AI think of this stream?
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: I'm so curious.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 6: I know. This will be about as entertaining as watching
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 6: Michael Jordan play some grade schooler.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that. I just want to say
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: that is the first time ever in my life. I
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: have been analogized to Michael Jordan. So probably the last.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 6: Well, excellent. Let's see. So what I did is I,
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 6: I took the dream as exactly as you guys have
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 6: it and all the details about the person and the
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 6: context and the feeling tone and the associations. And I
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 6: put that into Temeno stream and asked it for an
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 6: AI interpretation and I also asked it for myths and
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 6: legends related to it. So we can take a look
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 6: at that after. And we also created a couple of pictures,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 6: images from the dream just for entertainment sake. But so
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 6: to start off with, we'll take a look at the interpretation.
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 6: And I haven't read this before either because we just
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 6: did this. But here it is. The dream opens in
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 6: a tent-like shelter, a space symbolizing temporary accommodation and transitions.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 6: closely aligning with your current feelings of undergoing transformation, adaptability,
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 6: and venturing into unknown territories. This space, reminiscent of a revival,
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 6: suggests a reawakening or renewal of the self. The circle
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 6: of benches where interaction occurs can be interpreted as a
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 6: symbol of your current contemplative state, pausing to reflect during
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 6: this period of transitions. The circular arrangement may also indicate
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 6: a drive toward unity and wholeness, emphasizing the interconnectedness of
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 6: all aspects of life and your own psyche. Engagement with
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 6: a past peer and a professor from your MFA program
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 6: in the dream highlights themes of learning and development, but
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 6: also of forgotten or unacknowledged aspects of self, as you
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 6: don't recall the specific class mentioned. The professor, a figure
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 6: of knowledge and authority, might symbolize guidance and or could
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 6: be manifesting an aspect of your own inner wisdom as
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 6: you navigate through this critical transformation. The presence of a cult,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 6: though unalarming in the dream, might represent a strong pull
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 6: toward a specific belief system or ideology, possibly indicating parts
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 6: of your professional or personal life where conformity and acceptance
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 6: are influential. It's important here to consider what aspects of
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 6: your life feel similarly absorbent or potentially overshadowing of individual thought.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 6: The engagement with the older woman, who appears as an
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 6: inner guide demanding an entrance fee, can suggest a psychic
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 6: cost associated with accessing new areas of personal growth. The
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 6: act of paying with foreign currency, colorful and unfamiliar, points
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 6: to your current state striving for adaptability in the face
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 6: of new experiences outside of your comfort zone. The unfolding
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 6: bill into a world map signifies an expansive perspective opening
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 6: up to you, a symbolic representation of your expanding mental
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 6: and emotional horizons. Her reading of your poetry from the map,
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 6: a poignant moment of reconnection to your small, joyful creations,
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 6: further emphasizes the rediscovery and acknowledgement of aspects of your
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 6: identity as and capabilities that you might not be fully
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 6: appreciating in your waking life. The final verbal exchange involving
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 6: a K-hole lift with the coins brings attention to the
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 6: interaction between minor yet significant shifts in perception or value,
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 6: symbolized by the nickel and the quarter, and the broader
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 6: transformative journey you are undertaking. This suggests a delicate play
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 6: between small personal realizations and their impacts on your overall
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 6: overarching path. Questions for deeper reflection may include what aspects
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 6: of your past self mirrored by the classmate and professor
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 6: are you being called to integrate or acknowledge as you grow?
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 6: In what areas of life might you be conforming too
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 6: readily to to the ideas and beliefs of others as
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 6: suggested by the presence of the cult? How might the
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 6: seemingly minor but significant parts of self, suggested by the
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 6: coins and colorful pouch, be contributing to your current transformation
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 6: and future goals? Each symbol and interaction in your dream
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 6: hints at an underlying narrative of rediscovery, adjustment, and the
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 6: integration of past and present as you navigate these vivid transformations.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 6: Is there a balance you need to strike between welcoming
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 6: new influences and staying true to your authentic self? And
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 6: how can your rediscovered inner resources empower this journey? These
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 6: thoughts about your dream have been informed by hundreds of
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 6: books on dream work and thousands of curated symbols to
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 6: help you gain insight into yourself and your unconscious. But
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 6: I am only an AI. Without anything that doesn't resonate
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 6: with you and keep only those ideas that feel right,
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 6: deepest dream work begins when you bring a dream into
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 6: a human relationship. Carl Jung said, growth, transformation, and healing
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 6: ultimately come from relationship. Alone with a phone is not enough.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 6: Choose carefully. Consider sharing a dream or two with a
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 6: trusted friend. It's a remarkable way to get to know
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 6: someone better and yourself. We hope this interpretation gave you
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 6: at least one new idea to explore. Dream often and
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 6: dream well.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: That's very sweet.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: And did it offer up any myths or fairy tales?
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 6: One was the Fisher King. This legend deals with the
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 6: quest for a holy grail, which is a search for
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 6: deep personal truth and healing, reflecting the dreamer's journey towards
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 6: inner joy and contentment as expressed through their own poetry.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 6: And then it goes on to explain more. The Fisher
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 6: King is a figure in Arthurian legend who is the
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 6: guardian of the holy grail. He is wounded both physically
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 6: and spiritually, and his health is directly tied to the
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 6: fertility of his land, which lies barren as a result
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 6: of his suffering. The Fisher King's realm will only be
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 6: restored to prosperity when a noble knight successfully quests for
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 6: the Grail, which can heal the king and thus restore
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 6: the land. This story is rich in themes of healing,
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 6: the quest for a significant and transformative object, and the
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 6: connection between the leader's well-being and the well-being of his domain.
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 6: In relation to the dreams, Fisher King myth is relevant
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 6: in several ways. The quest for healing and transformation, just
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 6: as the Fisher King awaits healing through the quest for
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 6: the Holy Grail, the dreamer is experiencing a personal transformation
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 6: and growth symbolized by the dream's themes of self-discovery and renewal.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 6: Positive transformation mentioned by the dreamer. Also mentions the alchemist,
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 6: tale of transformation and finding one's true path echoes the
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 6: journey the dreamer's current life, the phase of positive transformation
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 6: and self-discovery. So it's talking about the alchemist to the
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 6: novel by Paul Coelho.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 3: So it seems like the AI has taken things like
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 3: the Fisher King and then categorized it in a number
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 3: of ways. For instance, as you were saying, there's the
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 3: thematic that it comes up as themes of healing. And
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: so it might then be applied to other people's dreams
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 3: who seem to have themes of healing.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and then it will also look at particular symbols
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 6: in dreams. A friend had a dream that referenced an
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 6: old friend's boyfriend whose name was David, and she couldn't
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 6: figure out. It was 12 years since she knew him,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 6: and then it pulled out David and Goliath, and it
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 6: turned out David and Goliath had a very strong relationship
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 6: to the dream.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 6: So it'll go either for themes or for symbols. And
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 6: it misses a lot. But every now and then it
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 6: comes up with a really nice one.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 3: That alone is such a boon because very few of,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 3: for instance, our dream school students have time to research
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 3: all the possible amplifications. So that's a gem, undoubtedly.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: I thought it did.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: I thought it did pretty well. You know, I was
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: thinking my wheels were turning while I was listening to
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: your interpretation. I mean, I think, you know, when I
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: think of like the mythological level of history, one of
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: the things, and we could go further with this, but,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: you know, the old woman is sort of the guardian
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: at the threshold, you know, that when you're going to
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: pass to a new stage of development, there's a lot,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: that's a kind of mythological figure. It's like a motif.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: that there's some threshold that you have to pass and
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: you must usually pass a trial. In this case, she
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: has to pay. And that's where the foreign currency comes in.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: And in a way, it comes after the cult. So
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: that's when the more individual part of the journey starts,
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: is she has to pay her entrance fee. It's interesting
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: because the AI had a more or less pretty close
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: take on the cult than I think that you and
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: I had, Joseph. That seemed... uh, pretty, pretty, uh, it
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: seems like we all agreed on that, you know, but
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: so fascinating. What a, what a cool experiment we just ran.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 3: I found it really interesting as well. I really liked
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 3: the way the AI took a symbol and then in
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 3: a sense was brought out the dominance of it, you know,
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 3: sitting in a circle could be like this or people
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 3: sit in circles for these reasons. And I thought, um,
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 3: Those generalities, I think, are very important because they speak
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: to more of the collective understanding of these things. And
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: it takes a little bit out of the personal, which
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 3: I kind of like, because if the dream stays too
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 3: much in the personal associations, then sometimes we miss how
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 3: the dream is pushing us, and it feels a little
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 3: too just confirming. So, yeah, I really appreciated the way
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 3: it broke down Each of the ideas.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: So that's a cool new dream partner.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 6: For five minutes, it's a pretty good little attempt and provocative.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: Well, John, we really appreciate you joining us today. And
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: we will have more information in the show notes about
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: Temenos and where you can find it and how you
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: can sign up.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 6: Terrific. I've really enjoyed being here. Thank you very much.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 6: It was a real privilege.
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 5: And submit your dreams for possible interpretation on another episode.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 5: We'd like to thank our listener who shared a dream
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 5: for today's show and hope you'll let us know what
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 5: topics you'd enjoy hearing more about. Until next time, keep
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 5: living this Jungian life.