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Magnetosphere and Motherhood: Synesthesia, Autism Parenting, and the Beauty of Neurodiversity with Director, Nicola Rose · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome to a really exciting episode. My first ever interviewing a director of a film. Here today, I have Nicola Rose, who was the director of Magnetosphere. And when I got wind of this film and read about it, the two words that popped up after I watched the trailer and was just in awe of the beauty of it was that it centers around neurodiversity and synesthesia. And, Nicola, your direction of this film strikes such a chord in the heart of women and mothers like myself. So, first of all, thank you for doing this project. But what inspired this?
• 0:43
  Speaker B: You know, my own experience with neurodiversity is a little more at a distance. Because although I probably grew up all kinds of neurodiverse, it wasn't at the time that we were necessarily getting diagnosed as such. So the inspiration for the film was that I saw a beautiful film, another independent film called Confetti, which is by a director named Anhu. And it's about dyslexia and about a little girl in China who has dyslexia and needs a very particular education, and it ends up taking her all the way to the United States. And I was so inspired by the visual aspects of this film, which I haven't seen it in a while, but they're very simple. Like the POV shots of the way this child was experiencing dyslexia and neurodiversity were so interesting to me. I saw that movie. I wanted to not reproduce, but expand upon that idea of representation of mental differences in film. And I didn't quite have the idea of synesthesia until a conversation I was having with a friend of mine kind of tipped that off, because it was something I had mentioned in the past. I had said, like, this synesthesia thing, that really interests me. And it wasn't until. Because I did a ton of research to make this film over the next year or two, and that was mainly interviewing primary sources. People who had different kinds, Kinds of synesthesia, people whose experiences I could use, people whose experiences I totally couldn't use, but they were all informative. And actually, during that process of interviewing people who had synesthesia, they call them synesthetes, I discovered that I had had synesthesia as a child. Not major the way, but something. Something where I could basically see music playing. And. Yeah, and it took, you know, many conversations. It was a long time ago, and it wasn't a memory. So it took, right, A lot of talking to people to kind of shake it loose. But that is my. I mean, I have other neurodivergences, but that's my personal connection to synesthesia.
• 2:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's really powerful. I mean, I. As you're just saying that, you know, not being a core memory, also being someone who has. I was, you know, a late diagnosed, you know, woman with adhd, obviously inspired or brought about by my own children and their diagnoses of apraxia and autism. And when I think back to my own childhood or experience with nature, for me, a friend of mine from college always said, sarah, when you watch the snowfall, I feel like you are watching diamonds fall from the sky. We're all just watching snow. But the way you experience it is that there's this like. It's this, like, depth of radiant beauty that you see in nature that I love being around. So I guess I. When I hear you say that through music, you were experiencing synesthesia. I think nature probably gave me a little bit of that as well growing up.
• 3:31
  Speaker B: So I'm very curious how your friend was so tapped into your. Was it your friend?
• 3:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, it was a friend of mine that I traveled in Europe with and we went to. We were in groups together in college. I believe that she probably has, you know, a bit of it as herself. I mean, she's just a very intuitive woman and friend of mine. And this was obviously in our early 20s, so. And transformational period of our own lives. And we were very open about our own, you know, anxieties and therapies and all these things. So I think there was a real understanding of how we both saw the world and experienced the world. That's one of those phrases when I. When I heard you say, like, how you saw music.
• 4:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 4:06
  Speaker A: Thing that I thought of is that Aaron always told me, you see diamonds falling from the sky. Not all of us do.
• 4:12
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's very literal for some people.
• 4:16
  Speaker A: Yes, it's.
• 4:17
  Speaker B: And. And less literal or less. I don't want to say tangible because none of it's tangible, but, you know, perhaps less intense or less severe or. And. And certainly a positive force for some and a negative one for others.
• 4:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I wonder about even, like when you sing about the research that you did those one or two years in the development of the film. I think a lot of neurodiversity and the positivity for the person comes not from understanding, but from simply witnessing and simply having someone stay curious to their experience and what. It's not really putting a label or a emotion onto what that person receives, but simply curious witnessing.
• 4:59
  Speaker B: Absolutely. I think it is. And I think we don't necessarily Take the time or have the time to do that, which is not necessarily to fault us. It's just to say at a certain pace and.
• 5:08
  Speaker A: Correct. That's been one of the most beautiful byproducts of having children like Millie and Mac is witnessing them and not really even doing anything else, but reflecting back my eyesight towards what they're doing. I mean, my daughter would play in marble chips in the grass and clover all day long, if I let her. And it has nothing to do with more than just. I can see the sense of. There's something sensory integrating to her that is so much more beautiful. And beyond marble chips and clover.
• 5:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. Sometimes it just kind of.
• 5:44
  Speaker A: And I watch it and I witness it.
• 5:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 5:47
  Speaker A: I say to her, I love how you play. She calls them on her device. She has a device that she speaks on her house rocks. They sort of line the front of the. The. The walkway. And I'll. I just say the same phrase. I love watching you with the house rocks.
• 6:03
  Speaker B: That's so interesting.
• 6:05
  Speaker A: But it's nothing more than that. You know, it's something.
• 6:08
  Speaker B: She's kind of building her own kingdom there.
• 6:10
  Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. So talk to me about then, because it's such a beautiful. I mean, the trailer itself is so beautiful. And I think that the characters and the development, again, they struck such a chord within me as a mother to neurodiverse children. What else do you feel that is like this overarching theme, you know, the first love, how that is experienced within the main, you know, protagonist as well, is. It's just so beautiful. And I guess I don't even know what. What the question is behind that, but kind of what.
• 6:43
  Speaker B: What brought it all about? Why is this? Why is. Why are we looking at this?
• 6:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, why are we. Why are we looking so deeply at this?
• 6:50
  Speaker B: You know, I'm. I'm very interested in general, in telling stories about kids and young people at a point of transition. You know, 13 years old is kind of the most vulnerable transitional period there is. You talk about transformative in our early 20s. That's another one. And that was sort of subject of my first film, which is also. It has. Has also been interpreted as about a neurodiverse character. It wasn't intended that way, but I'll. I'll maybe circle back to that sometime. But anyway, my. My first film, Goodbye Petrushka, is out there streaming. And I'll talk at the end about where Magnetosphere is the film we're talking about. They both have been. Let me get back to magnetosphere for a second, she's 13 in that movie. And to me, that's kind of the most transformational, vulnerable turning point age of all. And, you know, so in my mind, the. The pitch that I made to myself for this film was synesthesia meets puberty. And I thought, that's so much more interesting than, like, I don't know if she's 37 with synesthesia. It's like, that might be interesting, but it's not. Right. It's not a movie in the same way.
• 8:02
  Speaker A: Well, the someone who has a typical developing 12 and a half year old as well, the intersection of that is both profound, transformative in. In all the way, again from witnessing is really a profoundly large. First, in all the ways that you add in the neurodiversity and the depth of which that phase of life for a young woman is deep, to say the very least.
• 8:32
  Speaker B: To say the least. And then she's a girl. So there's everything that's added to that about girls growing up and kind of the ways that they're expected to be in society. And if you are in any way outside of that, the message is always. It's the. This very unfortunate dual message of be yourself so long as yourself is. That is socially acceptable.
• 8:51
  Speaker A: I did an interview on a. On a podcast during Autism Awareness Month in April, and this host uses the phrase that he's coined the index card of approved opinions. And I love that because I felt like I was, you know, in my motherhood and the way in which I live as a mother of children with profound autism, I sort of pushed the envelope of what people, the expectations are of me.
• 9:14
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:15
  Speaker A: As someone who's. I'm not just. I'm not the martyr. I don't play the isolated martyr.
• 9:20
  Speaker B: Is that like the role that. Because I don't know this too much, but is that.
• 9:24
  Speaker A: And I think that that's a conditioned. That's a conditioned hat that for better or for worse, the profound autism community has, you know, mothers in this life situation that's been handed to them are, you know, this is yours to become. You know, you make this your life. This is your life now. You have no other division of individuality and agency beyond simply this being the central role now, is it? Yes. But I think that the ability to live large and have space for your own personhood, femininity, motherhood, relationships beyond that is. Is pushed to the side because of how intensive and frontline mothering and quite literally care, like the depth of the caregiving aspect to children cannot tell you that they're Hungry or thirsty or need to go to the restroom or their bodies honestly don't even register those. That hyper sense of alert becomes your identity. And I think that what I've really pushed the envelope on is, is. Is it's yes. And I can be that too. And it's going to push me so far beyond what I ever thought my abilities were as one mother. But it's never killed me. It's never been anything more than a major rupture of growth. Right. I believe that there's like this fissure and that, you know, like scar tissue, it does that, you know, it does grow, it does create more muscle. And so that to me is a, is a part of all this because it. Back to the index card of approved opinions. It's like you're allowed to talk about that.
• 10:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, go there.
• 11:00
  Speaker A: Yes, we can and we can. Calmly and very beautifully.
• 11:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I've heard that so many times that once you have children, just children, not even adding any extra adjectives or, or different abilities and so forth, but once you have children, your life will never be your own again. And you know, as I've heard it said as a reason, you know, not to have children.
• 11:23
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 11:25
  Speaker B: I have never entirely. I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have children. But I've never entirely believed that you could or should have to lose your whole entire personhood because of that. That doesn't seem right.
• 11:39
  Speaker A: Well, I don't think it's like a statement that's like given on a handout. I think that the encompassing nature of children with profound needs, profound high support needs. If we are to look back historically, there is, you know, reality and the truth from history of children like mine used to be institutionalized. Right. They were put away because their needs are so high to stay alive. And I think that the transition of allowing them to be whole and seen as human and humane and treated as a whole individual put that care onto the parents, but specifically to the mothers. Obviously that's just primal. And that in doing so, the level and the necessity of energy and conscious care and hypervigilance is so profound alongside their needs that it's a byproduct of like, by pressing pause on your own caregiving to take care and have agency for yourself, it's seen as, as selfish or as unnecessary. Now, I know that can sound appalling, but it is this undercurrent narrative in the special needs world because you know, if you press pause and do something for yourself, whether that gives you anything or not. It really does come at the expense of the needs of your child. Right. I mean they're just because there's. Because with children like Millie and Mac when you are in their pres. Pairing for them or I'm you know as an educator and there's private school that they attend and one. Everything's one on one.
• 13:16
  Speaker B: Right.
• 13:16
  Speaker A: They need one on one learning, care. And so when you take a step back, whether that's for respite or for your own, you know, babysitting, you know needs, it can be seen as such a.
• 13:31
  Speaker B: Like how dare you.
• 13:32
  Speaker A: Right. Because their needs are so profound that no one beside like the ability to share what they need is not like leaving a typical developing 8 year old who can tell you when they're hungry. Like there's such a list. Right. So as they're. As they age their. The specialty of care grows because they need to be taken care of in a way that. That a typical 8 year old never would be. But if you have.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: Go ahead. No, no, no.
• 13:56
  Speaker A: If you have a newborn. Newborns. It's an ex. The expectation in any adult to newborn is they have no agency to take care of themselves. If they're left to be, they will die.
• 14:07
  Speaker B: Right.
• 14:07
  Speaker A: That, that in a typical developing child lessons, right. They begin to speak, they begin to have independence and so you can leave them alone for 5, 10 minutes at a time. Well I can do that but there's a. I have to be so conscious of who can also have an eye on them and is five minutes locked in the bedroom while I'm taking a shower with a double lock on my door so they don't escape habit. Right. So there's so much more hyper conscious nature to even your self care. Right. Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker B: All these things that you have to think of that nobody else would ever.
• 14:45
  Speaker A: Because those. As I say because those. The expectation is that those. Those things dissipate over time. Right. The your need to. Your need to. To keep them safe. Quite literally like alive. Typically developing children does not require a double lock on a bedroom door.
• 15:07
  Speaker B: No. It's something people wouldn't think of. I'm curious, do you homeschool or. No.
• 15:11
  Speaker A: No. I mean no, I do not. They go to a specialized school for autism based education.
• 15:16
  Speaker B: Oh just. Yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker A: One. And it's a holistic approach. It's ABA therapy. It's floor time. It's holistic child approach Speech spell to communicate. Occupational physical sensory rooms. I mean it's. I'm very lucky and it took a long while to get there but it's again, that's also the, the charge of mothers as well. Is the advocacy part that. That comes along with it. Yeah, but I think that I want to go back to the film because that is why we're. That is why we're here. What going. You were saying about the transformative time of a 13 year old in first love and puberty. How do you felt most personally connected to the protagonist and how that was how you directed her through that?
• 15:58
  Speaker B: My connection to the protagonist wasn't so much through her synesthesia because like I, I, like I told you, I didn't really know that I had had any personal connection to synesthesia until kind of one of the people I was interviewing tripped my switch, which I've written about a little bit. You know, that that was an interesting development. It was interesting only because it was like, oh, holy cow, I've been researching this thing. Yeah, it was just, it was just the basic condition of being a fish out of water and being a kid who doesn't operate as other kids do. And she's starting to notice it. And this is probably around the first time she's starting to notice it. That something is different whether she wants it to be or not. And it's uncomfortable and it's kind of hard to. She can't quite put her finger on it, no doubt, you know, no way to say, oh, oh, the, it's the, it's. It's not some small thing. It's not something, it's not something like, oh, I'm chewing on my fingernails, I can change that. You know, it's something profound, it's something all encompassing. It's, it's literally that she sees the world, perceives the world, and therefore feels the world differently. And therefore stimuli affect her differently.
• 17:07
  Speaker A: And the suspension of that is again, I experience it daily as the. But the suspension and the mystery behind knowing that your children and then Maggie in the film, quite literally, as you say, they experience life differently. The way in which they are quite literally in the world and what they feel and sense around them and the lens in which that they are absorbing reality lands differently. And I think that the mystery of that is very hard to convey to the general population sometimes. Again, that's why I love this film so much. I think, you know, as neurodiversity gets more visibility in film, there's such an excitement around the stories like this because I think it needs to need different mediums to convey what this means and what neurodiversity means.
• 17:55
  Speaker B: This is the thing is that until we can put ourselves in the shoes of other people. And I don't mean, you know, going to some extreme, like some extreme extent to let's trade places for a day, but I mean, like, until you can even just take a moment to think from their point of view and think what might be compelling them to act this way or what might they be thinking, feeling at this moment? I don't know, just something really simple like that. It seems to be such a stretch for so many. And the more stories we have like this, sorry, go ahead, say.
• 18:26
  Speaker A: But yeah, everyone's so worthy of that, of being witnessed in that fullness. Like what you're saying is that it does stretch. It stretches people. It forces typical adults or anyone in taking a film or any, any other difference, it forces you to press pause on what you. And how you experience life.
• 18:46
  Speaker B: You see, this is not difficult.
• 18:48
  Speaker A: It's so difficult for a lot of people to do.
• 18:50
  Speaker B: It's really difficult because we go through life at least I think, and I better not assume, but I think we go through life assuming that how we see and feel and perceive things is kind of the absolute and that everybody must see and feel and perceive things that way. And at some point, I don't know if it's. It's. It's different for everybody. And for some of us, it definitely never happens. But at some point we start realizing that, oh, no, no, actually other people do not see things the same way we do. I remember getting sort of related to the film actually, like profoundly almost anxious over the fact that I realized that my mom might not see red the same way I saw red. And we could never tell each other because it's qualia and you can't communicate that. Right? So. So I remember seeing. Sitting next to her in the car and talking to her and being like, oh my gosh, what if she sees red the same way I see yellow? And I can never have words to explain to her that, oh, you know, I see it as this, like, fiery thing, you know, there aren't, you know, try it. You can't do it. You can't explain it. And yeah, and so, you know, it really, the point of the movie, as silly as it is, and, and, and it's very purposefully silly, which some people, most people get right away. And some people are like, why is it silly? It's very purposefully silly for a reason, which is that the message is, put yourself in other people's shoes, even for a second, and you will do everybody so much good by just seeing the world from somebody else's point of view because everybody sees it differently. It is not all the way you see it. It's not all right.
• 20:17
  Speaker A: You know, a phrase that's in my world all the time is because my children are non. Speaking the. That all behavior is communication. Right. And I think that. I think that that extends to typical adults in terms of their ability to do exactly what you said, which is to put yourself in someone else's shoes. That's also a choice of behavior to communicate to someone else that you believe them, that you believe their experience. And I love. Beg your pardon. I said, I just love that you shared that. It's like asking people to just suspend for a moment because it's not that hard. But it, It's. I guess it's the, you know, it's simple, not easy for. For many.
• 20:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's not. Which is not. It's not really to. I'm not condemning those people. I think it is actually really difficult. The people I'm condemning, I think are the ones who. For whom it is right in front of them. It is. They're. They're literally, you know, sometimes directly being pleaded with to understand, hey, use the example of your children. Hey, my child is different. I need you to recognize this. And they say still refuse to recognize it when it is at no cost to them. Yes, those are the people to whom I do not wish a good day. Everybody else gets a good day.
• 21:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, have a day. Have a day yourself. A day. Well, I. Again, without, you know, interjecting just like personal experience, I just believe so much that, that, that how you beautifully shared this story. And I love the playfulness. I think that. I think that we need more playfulness and an ability to show people like Maggie's character and how they experience the world from their neurodiverse lens of their mind and bodies. Because if we can't laugh and play at the. At the center of our being as part of our core experience, we're going to get just life. Life. Life is heavy. Life is heavy. But the playful ones, I think it's one of the most.
• 22:10
  Speaker B: Well, thank you. I think it's really important that these things not necessarily be approached with a heavy touch. Certainly you can't make fun of them. Character. Somebody asked at some point something. I wish I could remember the question, but it was basically like, how did you make it a comedy without ever feeling like we were making fun of her? I was like, well, because the jokes are never at her expense. It's a comedy but it's from her point of view. Um, you know, certainly she doesn't see herself in a very positive light. That's part of the, the journey for her. That's what she's working on. Um, the jokes aren't really at her expense. You're seeing it through her. And that's the whole point. Again, you're seeing it through somebody else's point of view.
• 22:54
  Speaker A: That is. Oh, it, it is so prevalent. And I think that everyone should not only give the time to watch it, but to reflect deeply upon their ability in actual. In their actual lives. Because those small moments of witnessing and believing people who are neurodiverse and are experiencing the world differently only serves to expand your life and your wonder. I think that wonder is one of the most amazing things that we are gifted as humans and as someone who never in a million years would have thought her bingo card had. Mother of two profoundly autistic children.
• 23:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a. Wow.
• 23:30
  Speaker A: It's that that transformation of itself only in all the hard and all the questions only has given rise to wonder and curiosity.
• 23:40
  Speaker B: That's so interesting. Yeah. All the things we don't think will end up on our business card.
• 23:45
  Speaker A: Yes, all of those things.
• 23:47
  Speaker B: And life is heavy. And that is pretty much the reason in and of itself that this film is pretty light and goofy and zany and whatever other adjectives movie reviewers have, you know, again and again added to it, they'll say, oh, it's. And they mean this in a positive way. The reviews have been fantastic, but like, they'll always call it some version of zany. Zany or kooky or crazy or whatever. Well, yeah, and. And as several have noted, it's because we're seeing it through a 13 year old girl's mind. They're not very subtle, you know, we're not very subtle ones.
• 24:15
  Speaker A: I have one, I have one living at my house. They are not.
• 24:17
  Speaker B: And then I realized a moment later, oh my gosh, this is intentional. It's like. Yes, yes, it is intentional. Thank you. Yes.
• 24:24
  Speaker A: And I hope that that's another acknowledgment to your gift as a director too.
• 24:27
  Speaker B: Because I have no idea. But thank you. I hope so.
• 24:30
  Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Nicola, thank you for sharing your experience and broadening the eyes of everyone that's going to take this in. And it's such a pleasure to hear about your work directly through you and your experience with it and to bring this to light because this is an angle of neurodiversity that really isn't discussed all that much. And I believe the medium with which this film has brought it about and again the genre and the specificity of her being at a transformative part in her life while realizing that she different in her synesthesia is just really cool sounding really simple. It's really cool.
• 25:08
  Speaker B: Thank you. And I think the one thing, if I can shoot a just very quick last word here is that this movie is not really a children's movie. Lutely show it to children. Like I think 8 and up or 7 and up is great. Some of its biggest fans have been, you know, kids is 7, 10, whatever it is. Teenagers have gone wild about it. Like I was in a room full of 250 teenagers who blew the roof off about it. Like absolutely great for people there, there's some mild language. So I would say maybe 8 and up, 10 and up, I don't know. But it's not a children's movie. It's a movie for anybody who was a child and it's a movie for anybody who ever felt weird. And there is a lot that is, I, I, it's almost a kids film for adults. Yes.
• 25:56
  Speaker A: I love, well, isn't I always laugh. I mean that's like Mr. Rogers, Daniel Tiger, Sesame street, like Phineas and Ferb.
• 26:02
  Speaker B: SpongeBob, all these things again, this is.
• 26:04
  Speaker A: All, this is children's program, but it's for, it's for the adults.
• 26:07
  Speaker B: Sesame street is actually, I mean Sesame street is a more extreme example because it really is for small children. And that is the first and primary. But you know, you have Monsterpiece Theater, you have, I know all the jokes. That's the one I go to. But you, you know, you have all these, all these puns.
• 26:24
  Speaker A: You have why now?
• 26:25
  Speaker B: Benedict Cumberbatch going on there and playing Sherlock and Exactly. In there for the adults. Absolutely. This isn't that. This is a movie that really first and foremost kind of is. I mean we're seeing it through a 13 year old girl's lens. But you're being asked not to be a 13 year old. Exactly. But to look back.
• 26:44
  Speaker A: Yes. Well, it's beautiful and I cannot wait to help in any way promote.
• 26:50
  Speaker B: Thank you. Well, Amazon prime and Apple TV and lots of other places. And we'll get that link in the comments.
• 26:57
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 26:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time today.
• 27:01
  Speaker B: Thank you. This was lovely.
• 27:02
  Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And until next time on the Inchtones podcast.