Latest / Mosaic Sparks with Lesley George / Anne Hill Escaped Scientology + Rescued by a Trucker

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Anne Hill Escaped Scientology + Rescued by a Trucker · Mosaic Sparks with Lesley George

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Legal disclaimer.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: The episode features Anne Gollard Hill's personal account of her experiences with Scientology.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Her statements reflect her recollections, perspectives, and opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mosaic Sparks, its hosts, or its production team.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Mosaic Sparks has not independently verified all statements made during this conversation.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what does it take to walk away from a world that shaped your beliefs, your relationships, and your identity?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Ann Hill joins me today to share her personal account of leaving Scientology and the journey that followed.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Sparklers.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a special episode that you are going to be introduced to someone that I get to call my friend.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we are going to speak with Miss Ann Hill.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, and as we get ready to get started on this conversation, tell us what's going on with you today, Ann.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, life is beautiful.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just had a really good workout because I strength train at 65.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm on this podcast, which is pretty awesome.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my life is is just moving along like a freight train.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it was something that I never expected to happen, but I always hoped would happen.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in your life where you hope for things and you kind of dream for things, and you just keep putting in the daily work, maybe someday this is going to happen.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's all just coming to fruition.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So life is beautiful.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So as you talk about things that are happening, what is it that's exciting for you?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: What right now?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening for you right now?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I am very much getting my story out to people now, where in the past I would not.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I have quite a life story.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a book, and that is with the editor now.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this book has been in process for seven years.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's finally with the editor and it's very exciting.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's about my how would I describe it easily?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was in Scientology, the very top of Scientology.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like a zealot, man.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there for almost 20 years, and I escaped in 2007 with nothing.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing, just the clothes on my back and no money, you know, nothing.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I had to get out.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It took me 20 years, but I and then, but the book is about how did I reclaim my life after that, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And how could I be?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was 47 years old.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I was starting at a very some would say later in life, but for me, it was just the beginning, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so the book is about how I rebuilt my life.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But now I just decided I would throw it on, throw myself out there on social media where I wasn't planning on doing it, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm like on TikTok and I have thousands of followers who, you know, are just the most beautiful, wonderful people who just want to know more about my story because it helps them.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realize until I started doing this how much my story can help other people.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So Ann, I know your story, and you just gave us a few different things.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned strength training at 65, you mentioned being on TikTok, and the biggest bomb you just dropped is in Scientology.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk a little bit about Scientology.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And here on Mosaic Sparks, we're always bringing a Disney character in.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So when and knowing your story, I kind of frame your story somehow with Rapunzel.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Rapunzel, you know, she was in the tower and she believed that the tower was protecting her.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: But technically, you were in your own tower for 20 years.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what rule that once felt protected to you, but later revealed itself as control as you were in Scientology for 20 years?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, and also give give the listeners kind of background.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: You said you were at the top of Scientology.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in what's called, I was in what's called the C organization.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that is like the the most dedicated Scientologist.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: You sign a billion-year contract when you join the C organization, meaning you're going to dedicate your life to Scientology for the next billion years.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not kidding.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you you do.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very, it's very closed system.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's different levels of Scientologists.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: You've got your regular public Scientologists who just do the, you know, they do the courses and they do the procedures and they do the counseling called auditing.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: But they live their lives, you know, just like you or I.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, they give all their money to Scientology, but that's another story.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it is controlling, but not to the degree.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Then the next level you have is a regular Scientology general staff member, and they work in a Scientology organization, but they go home at night, they have families, they, you know, that's just their job.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have Sea Org members.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there's probably about 5,000 worldwide right now.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's about it.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the people that basically run all of Scientology, you know.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And where I was was in international management.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So at the very top.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I worked um all the time with the head of Scientology, David Miscavige.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I work with him all the time.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is the micromanager par excellence.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in charge of all the international magazines.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote and edited all of them, which is, I think, seven different magazines in up to 12 different languages going out every month.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's what I did.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he, and I had a team of five people, that was it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't sleep much, but you know, but he would oversee everything.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I got an inside peek into the inner workings of how things are in that organization.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean by being at the top.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was at the top.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned the different levels and people being able to go home.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you never went home.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So in the Sea Org, it's sort of like a monk lifestyle or priesthood almost, like where you live together, you eat together, you do everything together, and there is no other home.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is your home.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is your so when you think about Scientology and people talk about it being a cult, that's where the cultiness comes in, is in the Sea Org.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, certainly there are parts of Scientology to a general Scientologist that are very damaging, but nothing compared to living like where I lived on the international base was surrounded by high fences with barbed wire, but the barbed wire, razor wire, but it was facing inward, not outward.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: What does that tell you?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't leave.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: My gosh, never heard of okay.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is a juicy one.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole Rapunzel idea makes perfect sense to me.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't get out, but it was here.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I couldn't get out.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: My brain, my head was telling me I shouldn't leave.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned the different levels.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: There were people that could go home.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, everyone that belongs to the Scientology religion organization, they're experiencing different things.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: You bet they are at different times.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: At different levels.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You bet.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of times a regular, like a typical Scientologist, will hear stories from those of us who are at this different level and go, oh, that's not true.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Number one.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, they're not really allowed to look for themselves.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're not allowed to read anything or look at anything critical of Scientology.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now that is one thing that they have a lot of control over.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, because what they tell them is this is gonna be bad for your spiritual progress.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you read this, it's gonna hurt you.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole perp, the whole thing that they sell in Scientology is called the bridge to total freedom.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when you get to the top, you're supposed to achieve total spiritual freedom.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hasn't happened yet that I know of of anyone.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I was just gonna go there.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna ask you how does how does that bridge work?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna go there.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you have different levels, but you have to pay.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're a public Scientologist, to get to the top of the bridge is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars that you have to spend.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you get this stuff for free.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a church, you know, a church you think a church, you're you're gonna maybe you're gonna tithe or whatever.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: These are courses, procedures that you have to pay for and you have to pay a lot for.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you get to the top, you're supposed to be at cause over everything.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're supposed to be able to be in and out of your body at will and be cause over matter, energy, space, and time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so far, I haven't seen anyone, you know, and I got pretty high up, and I can tell you that does not happen.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I still wear glasses.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: How's that possible?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I get I get colds, I got a headache yesterday.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's not being a cause over matter, energy, space, and time, is it?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So Scientology.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: We see it on the outside as a religion.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because that's how they, that's what they say it is, because L.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Ron Hubbard developed it as a religion, because that's a way to make money.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: In writing, there are writings for him.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a book by a guy named John Atac, who's a brilliant scholar and has studied Scientology for years and years.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called Let's Sell These People a Piece of Blue Sky.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically the whole story of L.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ron Hubbard, how he developed Scientology, what he was doing before.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in there, he talks about how L.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ron Hubbard wrote that the best way to make a lot of money is to start a religion.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so they did, he did, and in 1993, the thing that David Miscavige was working so hard for is IRS tax exemption, because they were not paying taxes for years and years.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Scientology wasn't, they were getting hit for by the IRS for big tax bills, and individual Scientologists were as well.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So they went to great lengths and did a lot of shady things and got tax exemption in 1993.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So now they're like, yay.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they make all this money and they put all this money into buildings that don't have any people in them.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, if you look, they have this whole program called ideal orgs or ideal organizations, and you create these beautiful multi-million dollar buildings to bring Scientology to the world.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if you walk in any one of those buildings, you're not going to see any people in them.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a good tax dodge.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're a religion, you have to show that you're doing things for society that are good, or else you'll get your tax exemption revoked, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they're building all these buildings to deliver all this technology to all the or their scriptures, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: To all these people, but there's nobody in them.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks to the internet, there's nobody in them, you know.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, amazing.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know too many stories.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is amazing.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So as you work so closely with David Miscavige, is that how you pronounce his name?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So after years of basically listening to him, so someone else was defining your world.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: How did you begin trusting your own judgment again?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: When did that happen for you?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a long and slow process.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, because what happens is people liken control coercive control and cult like I hate to use cult because it has so many different connotations.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there are good cults and bad cults.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a continuum of cultiness, you know.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But this is a very damaging organization.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get in, it's sort of like you know the analogy or the metaphor of boiling a frog.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's like.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody joins a cult.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I joined because I thought I could really help people.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought this organization, I liked what they had to say and I liked what I was learning at the beginning.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought these are great tools.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I could really help people with this.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I joined.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then slowly you get indoctrinated into what Scientology really is.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And by then you stop listening to your gut.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: You stop trusting yourself because you are taught that your thoughts are wrong.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the only thing that's right is what L.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Ron Hubbard has written.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to, if you are not following that exactly, then there's something wrong with you.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And let's say, for example, the head of Scientology beats up the person standing right next to you in a meeting.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do anything about it because obviously he did something to deserve that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is the mindset you're in.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes a long time.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, what it what it took was really looking.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times you don't look because you're so exhausted, because not getting sleep is key.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: They make sure you don't get a lot of sleep.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you sleep, then you can think.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't sleep, you're exhausted all the time and you hardly eat.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hard to know what's true and what isn't.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just default to, well, this is what I'm here for and this is what I'm learning.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And believe me, after 20 years of that, it's hard to leave because you've got this idea of, well, I've put in all this time and my entire life and I've built everything around this.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if I leave, what does that mean?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So back to the question though, how when did I start?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first time I saw David Miscavige beat somebody up, I went, Oh, this is the head of my religion.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why is he doing that?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got in trouble for even questioning it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I shut it down, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I got punished for questioning him, but it started it ignited a little spark.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I got in trouble a lot because I was kind of, I would push the envelope a little bit, I would push back a little bit.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I did, though, I get pretty severely punished to the point where I was out in the hot sun, you know, moving rocks around in the desert for a week before I could get back into the good graces of the group, you know, because I had said or done something that he didn't like.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: But this happened all the time.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And after a while, you just get beaten down to such a degree and you start thinking, well, this is my life now, and I'm gonna make the best of it.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, I mean, a lot of people don't leave.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people stay, which is very sad to me.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's such a thing as it's called cognitive dissonance where your brain can't accept two thoughts that are completely different at the same time.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So Scientology is saving humanity, and David Miscavige beats people up.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, throw that to the back because there's probably a good reason for that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna stick with the Scientology as saving humanity.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that just goes, you know, back here because the brain can't handle it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: At a certain point, you know, the scale tips, it becomes too much.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you go, okay, no, no, this this is there's something really, really wrong about this.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I see people around me that are being treated really badly, and I'm being treated badly.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I doing this?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes a lot to pull yourself out of it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: A lot.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine, you know, you talk about 20 years.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So let's look at the span.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're 65.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we do 65.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: You were in there for 20 years.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: How long ago did you leave?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get in, I got in at 27 and left at 47.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: 27 to 47.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: No kids, no career, right?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: These are the years.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have a college degree.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not dumb, but I was searching and I was vulnerable.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what they're looking for.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the smartest people I ever met worked with me in Scientology.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Really brilliant, capable people, but looking for more, you know, not challenged enough, maybe.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: This was way too much of a challenge, I'll tell you that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But when I left at 47, I left because I mean, I was terrified.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Terrified because I was sure that by leaving, I was gonna end up penniless, in a ditch somewhere, no friends, you know, because that's what I was told.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was told if you leave, you are the lowest of the low and your life is gonna go really badly.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Number one.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, you have forfeited your eternal spiritual freedom.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So over to you.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You make the decision to leave or not.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's get to the forfeiting your eternal freedom.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the contract that you signed?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is, but it isn't.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the thing is, okay, I signed a contract to be in the Sea Org and to promote Scientology and try to make the whole planet a Scientology planet, right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you get indoctrinated that Scientology is the only way to achieve spiritual freedom.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just like any other controlling religion, any other high control group.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: My way is the only way.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if I left, it was over.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I could never be spiritually free or any other kind of free.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: It felt when I I was out maybe for a few weeks and I was staying.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a long story, but Oh no, let's hear it.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hear it.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when I left, when I escaped, I had just been, I had just gotten approval the day before to go to my parents' 60th wedding anniversary because I was in Clearwater at the time, because David Miscavige had kicked me out of international management and left me in Clearwater to scrub, you know, the dish room floor with a toothbrush.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Again, another story.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So hold on, hold on, let's back up.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you weren't living in Clearwater.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was in LA.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was in Hemet at the international base.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but then we went to Clearwater to do a project.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And while there, I did something he didn't like.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he kicked me out, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I lost all my friends and I ended up at this lower organization.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't, I mean, it's still a big organization in Clearwater.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there for four years.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the good thing was it was only an hour away from my parents.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Lived in Lakeland, which is where I am now.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was able to go and see them because it would have been a big PR situation for Scientology if I hadn't been able to go see my parents who were right there.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was their 60th wedding anniversary.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now it didn't get to go to their 50th anniversary because I was in behind barbed wire.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't let me leave.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I knew people who didn't get to leave to go to their parents' funeral.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I did get okay to go to their to go for one night to their anniversary.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I rent this little car.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now I don't have any credit cards or anything like that, but I had cash.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had saved up some cash, not much, because we didn't get much.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the Enterprise at that time, the Enterprise around the corner would rent to Sea Org members, would rent cars to us for cash because we would always bring them back.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't care.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: They were fine with it.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I got this car, this little blue Corolla, drove down, drove over to Lakeland, went to this incredible anniversary party from my parents, and my whole family was there.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And people had come from Canada and out of my nieces and nephews, and it was the most beautiful, loving experience.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And not one person mentioned Scientology because my mother had told them ahead of time, don't even.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: My mother was so smart.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so not one person mentioned Scientology, but we all just talked about, you know, family stuff and and and was lots of laughter and remembering, you know how you get when you get with people that you love and you remember your childhood and all the fun things.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that just something clicked.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I went, Oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is what people actually caring about you feels like.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't felt this in 20 years.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the next day, the next morning, I had stayed overnight with my older brother, who was an over-the-road trucker, and his wife, because they had an extra bed in their hotel room.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: They said, Why are you going now?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can stay tonight and leave in the morning.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Okay, I think that's okay because they won't notice, you know, that I didn't come back.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: That you're not gone.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I got back in time for the morning muster, which is roll call, like military.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: We all stand up and so we did that three times a day because it's a very military type organization.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: After that morning muster, I got called in to an interview, not an interview.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I got called in to see the deputy executive director who just started screaming at me immediately.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, How dare you?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: How dare you go and see your family when you haven't finished this marketing campaign?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was and at that moment, and this is something I was used to.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was used to the screaming and the berating and the name calling and all that.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I just looked at her and I said, Okay.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But inside, I said, Yes, sir, I'll go back and get that marketing campaign done.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And inside I was like, I'm out of here.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Something snapped at that moment.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And all the questions that I'd had for all those years, it all gelled.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I went, Well, that's it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta go.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta go.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can't keep doing this.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have a place I can go to.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: That was the other thing.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Which is an hour away.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that they were there for me.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that they would support me and they wouldn't be, you know, critical.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: They would just be there for me.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I could tell.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what gave me the impetus to actually leave.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I sent all my team home.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'll take care of this marketing campaign.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I sent them home to sleep.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is like 10 at night, 11 at night, the usual.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I sat up all night in my little room, my little office with no windows, and kept typing this letter.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am leaving.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not coming back.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do not come after me.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can say that I'm responsible for all the problems of that Scientology has right now.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I do not even care.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I knew what would happen.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I knew as soon as I left they would come after me because that's what they do.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because they wouldn't want me talking, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I left.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us what does left look like?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you went to the parties, the anniversary, stayed overnight.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: You came back.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: She had this conversation with you.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're thinking about leaving.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Walk us through what does leaving look like.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: What did you do?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I couldn't get any of my stuff.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I had a lot of stuff, but that was in my housing, which was somewhere else.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'd gone back there, I could never have gotten out.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So all I had was my uniform that I was wearing, my polyester, whatever uniform, and my purse, which didn't have much in it.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote this letter and I finally realized it was about eight o'clock in the morning.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was up all night deciding am I gonna go?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Am I not gonna go?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Am I leaving everything that you know?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm leaving everything.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm leaving everything that I've built for 20 years.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: What will be there on the outside?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is another thing that you asked me a question originally about something about what did I believe or what was I being told that kept me there?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, that the world is dangerous, that the outside world is dangerous.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that the only place you're safe is in Scientology.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I was concerned that it would be dangerous, but it was more dangerous at that point to stay for me.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: It felt more dangerous to stay than go.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I got up finally at eight o'clock.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: in the morning because I knew if I didn't leave then they'd be after me the minute they found out I had gone because nobody was up they were all having breakfast or something they were not own yet so I go out the back door I get in my little Corolla because I hadn't taken it back to the enterprise.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You had transportation.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I did.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh if I hadn't had transportation I don't know what I would have done.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Probably called my mom.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so I get in the car and I know how to get there because I was just there the night before.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Get on the highway on I four going to Lakeland from Tampa.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean from Clearwater.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was panicked.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I kept looking back.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I knew they were coming after me.
• 22:36
  unknown: Wow.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: How was I going to get there in time?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I did.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I couldn't go to my mom's and dad's house because they knew where they lived.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: They knew everything about me.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: My younger brother also lives in Lakeland and I couldn't go to his house because they knew where he lived.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: But my older brother was a trucker.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where did I go?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: The holiday inn.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was hoping he was still there.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I go to the holiday inn.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: I drive into the parking lot and his pickup truck's not there anymore.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh no.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is where what am I going to do?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where am I going to go?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to find me.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to convince me to come back.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like they were going to yank me out of my car and throw me in a van or something.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: That wasn't going to happen.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: But the mind control is so intense that they could have easily talked me into going back.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because of where I was at at the time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was a broken person.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, well I'm going to go up to their room and see if they're there.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just in case, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: If someone's looking out for me, this is the time.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I go to the hotel room, I knock on the door, my sister-in-law opens the door and she goes, What are you doing here?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I burst into tears.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm done.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: I left.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going back.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: She grabs me, yanks me into the room, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Gives me a big hug and I said, Where's Al, my brother?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: She said, well, he's not here.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's getting his truck ready to go across country.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: But he happens to be on the phone with me.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she hands me the phone.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was 12 years older than me.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's past now.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Rest in peace.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: But he says to me, Baby sister, is it true?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you out?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Did you leave?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, yeah, it's true.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I got you.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take care of you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he took me across the country in his big rig for two and a half, three weeks.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they could not find me.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's beautiful.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that a great story?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: That is that is absolutely speak about timing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know I always say about us saying yes.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you said yes to Anne for the first time in 20 years.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're right about that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Look how that worked out.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, did they go to your parents' house?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Of course they did.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: They were oh they they got there as I was getting in the cab.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like nobody believed me when I said they were going to be there.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know my sister-in-law was like you're being paranoid.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like uh no I'm not and so I just had climbed into the cab of my brother's truck.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And she calls him and says they're at my they're at the house.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like of course they're at the house.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Done.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they camped out in front of either my brother's my younger brother's house or my parents' house for about two weeks off and on.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hoping that I would come back.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Of course of course and it was great because they would go knock on the door they knocked on my younger brother's door and they said we're looking for Ann Do you know where she is and he's like well I thought you knew where she was I mean aren't you supposed to be in charge of her life?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was so great.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: My family is the best.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: My family really is just such a huge part of this story and how incredible they were for me.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is such an incredible incredible story.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you share that with us.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important to explain to people that may have people that are in these kind of situations, maybe it's not a cult, but maybe it's a bad relationship, you know, a harmful one that if you you cannot tell somebody to leave because they're not going to you cannot tell somebody they're in a cult or their husband is a bad person or whatever.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: What you can do is show them consistent love and support so that they know that if they do at some point decide to leave they'll have a safe place to land.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I was able to do this because I had them I had my family.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know that not once did they ever, ever make me wrong for what I did.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: They were just so happy that I was back.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that amazing?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely amazing.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And let me ask you from when you went to your parents' anniversary event had you seen them in 20 I had.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had seen them a couple of times because once I got to Clearwater, they were close enough that they could come.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh okay okay so I got to see them a couple of times but it was for me it was really hard because my dad was pretty sick at that by that time.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily I got to spend the last however many years of his seven five years.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I got to spend the last five years of his life with him.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank God for that but he was definitely wasting away he had diabetes for years and years and years and years.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it was eating away at him and when I saw him for the first time I was like what have I done that was another crack right there.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing my father who was always this strong vibrant incredible person that I had just dumped for 20 years.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: That was another crack going wow I've missed all this.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the other part right so you got in trouble because you were at the very top you got in trouble and now you got sent I know to clear water.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it great?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: David Miscavige I did a whole video about this because he didn't realize when he was doing that what that was going to do for me.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely for kicking me to the curb Dave they kicked you out and not realize what they did.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness wow isn't that great yeah because if I was behind barbed wire I mean I I have friends who did get out but it was not easy it was not easy to get out of there.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Much harder.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's that was amazing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for walking us through because I know that you know the listeners are going to have questions and I love what you said is forget about cult but just think of someone in a bad relationship or whatever.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can be in so many different towers people can be so many different towers.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know as Rapunzel's in a tower you can be in so many different towers for so many different things and I absolutely love what you said about don't tell people to leave love really and truly and and in your journey you really have showed us demonstrated with us how love really and truly has and I love what your mom did that no one that night asked you anything right so really and truly it had to be from something within and something within you had to bubble up and not someone telling you you know you need to do this and you need to do that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the beautiful part.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now what part of your identity you think took the longest to reclaim oh yes that is a good question.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: What part of my identity took the longest to reclaim well good now I'm thinking about it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing you're doing all these amazing things right and I'll have you talk about that as we get ready to close up like you have this amazing TikTok following I think you know if I have to think about it I think it's you know the thing that took the longest was to figure out what was true about who I was as an emotional being and I'll tell you what I mean by that.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: In Scientology you have to act a certain way.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have to only show certain emotions because if you are in a lower emotion it's a very complicated thing but if you're in a lower emotion like grief, you can't show grief.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can't show fear you can't show all these different emotions because that means there's something wrong with you because you shouldn't have to have those feelings if you are an enlightened being.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when I left Scientology the thing that took the longest to unpack was getting out of this you know I'm so happy all the time and this it was just a complete fake me.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would pretend like everything was good and I was happy but that's just a social thing that I would put on because I didn't really know how to feel anything.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll give you an example.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: When my dad died I could not cry.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I could not and I was holding his hand up to the moment he died and I could not experience grief because it had been instilled in me for so long that that is not something that you that you do.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: You get rid of that like if somebody dies you just go in and get some processing and deal with it and get rid of it.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of that feeling so you don't actually grieve.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up maybe a few hours afterwards, you know, in the bathroom throwing up actually you know projectile out of both ends.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was but that's how I had to deal with it because I could not cry.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I could not grieve I didn't know what grieving felt like anymore.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so for years I had this fake persona like I don't know like Susie Sunshine.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was just fake fake happy you know the kind of people I'm talking about so I didn't realize that in Scientology you had what you had to smile and be happy all the time?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much unless you were berating somebody you were allowed to be angry and antagonistic but you weren't allowed to have any emotion that would cause anyone to maybe want to help you or have any sympathy for you.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't allowed to have sympathy for people.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sympathy is a bad thing in Scientology because you're giving in to their it's called the reactive mind basically Al Ron Hubbard coined this thing as the part of your mind that's beyond your conscious level of awareness.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's below your level of awareness and and it is the cause for all the pain and anguish and all the weird thoughts that you have and you have to get rid of it.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So so I was at that level of quote unquote clear I had reached that I'd gone up higher than that.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a level where you're supposed to no longer have your own reactive mind and meaning you're not supposed to have any psychosomatic illnesses anymore, which would include having glasses because apparently that's psychosomatic.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And but I still had glasses which meant of course that I hadn't achieved the next level you got to go to the next level to get rid of that because there's something else going on.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then you got to go to the next level if that didn't handle it.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's crazy right but yeah it took me a long time to be able to have all like to get angry about something I was concerned that if I got angry I would just go out of control because that's what used to happen in the Sea Org.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would get angry at somebody and it was just like you know because you can't really control your emotions if you don't have any agency over them.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to ask you do you remember the first time you cried after you left?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm good question.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let me think wow Leslie isn't that weird that I can't just come up with that off the top of my head okay or or what what about be because you said there was two emotions you could have you could have I could be cheerful smiling too happy or crying or antagonistic and angry right what so that was easy.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: What about any other I just realized it could I tell you about this story.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I was working at a coffee shop because I gotten a job and this was I was out maybe one or two years and I was the boss from hell because that's how I'd been trained to manage people.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: And people who would meet me would think because I had this whole happy end thing going on.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: That they would think oh she's smart and happy and I think she'll do great at this.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I become the manager and I treated people really not well.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know it hurt my heart because that's not who I am but that's who I had become.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this one woman who worked for me young woman and she was late almost every day just every day.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in science you can't as a Scientologist oh no you know you can't you can't even be one minute late or you know there's something wrong with you.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I would be constantly on her about being on time.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now understand this young lady has Crohn's disease.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow I got which I considered at that time not to be something that would interrupt you from actually doing your job because you know illness that's a spiritual thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow in Scientology and you get rid of it through Scientology.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're being ill if you have a disease that it's on you not on me to help you.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: That is literally who I was back then.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard to confront it but I've done a lot of work on it.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Of course of course but she was late again for I don't know how many times now she'd been late brought her in and I talked to her about it and I said you know you can't keep doing this and you got to get this Crow's disease under control.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have you thought about this, this, this as if I'm some sort of expert, right?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Have you done this, this, this, this, and this and I can give you this and this and this and this.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she's looking at me like I'm completely insane.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Completely crazy?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So then I take a break and I'm sitting in the cafeteria and I am, I don't know what I was doing, but my phone went off and it was a text message from her but not meant for me.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it said Anne, I cannot work with Anne.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: She is crazy.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought now a normal person would read that and go, uh oh I probably should have not handled that the way I did let me go talk to her but not me.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: I lost my I lost it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I went back to her and I started screaming at her at that I mean everybody could hear this right this was a coffee shop in a hospital the whole first floor could hear this right and I could not stop myself like it was crazy.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then my boss came in immediately and took me to her office and I thought oh she's going to fire me and she sat me down and she went so what what happened?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked it through and she said maybe let's give you some tools to handle this the next time so you don't do this.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like oh that's interesting.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought of that before anyway I didn't cry yet but I went home after that shift and it hit me.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: It all hit me all at once who was that who is that who did that who is that person and I went and took a bath I sat in the bathtub for an hour weeping because it finally broke free.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like that's the person I became in that organization.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's not who I am.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to cry and cry and I couldn't stop crying and I could not I just let it go.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And from that point on it was still took a lot to get to the point where I could freely express all kinds of emotions right like be a normal person.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but I whatever normal is I guess.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you know now when I look at someone who's being you know toxic positivity you know what I'm talking about.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: When I look at someone like that I'm like oh boy yeah stay away from that person.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: They are dangerous to themselves and other people wow yeah in that crazy I'm really speechless now because we all know people like that in our lives where they show up smiling laughing whatever all the time and for me I've always thought like life cannot really be that way but here's what you just gave me what you just gave me is they're just dealing with one emotion.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: When another emotion needs to come out because you've been pressing that what does that look like?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that is the scary part and that is the part that I have not heard anyone talk about.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: No because here's the thing right yeah we need to be positive positivity and being sunshine smiley all the time to me is two different things.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You bet.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I do be being positive and smiley smiley that that's two different two different things but 100% you have these people like you said toxic positivity whenever that eruption will get ready to come out like everybody beware.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting right incredible.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah I'm still working through this stuff 19 years later honestly it's a lifelong healing process.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a really good place right now.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes but there are days I still have them you know but of course because we all do.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I stopped looking at the news because I can't take it anymore.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so upsetting.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I just turned it off and I my husband though he tells me all the oh did you hear about the blah blah why didn't you tell me that I'm trying to stay away from this right now.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right because I know now I'm aware enough yes to know when I'm feeling a bit weak yes in terms of my ability to handle certain information.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I just put it aside but I I'm at a very much different place now in terms of being able to handle emotions.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have work to do still but it's much better much better.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that that though has taken the longest to and I think I'm not alone a lot of people go through this.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely but what I love about you know where you are is self-awareness.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah and I think that when we can get to because before you were not operating in that you could not because of the conditions you the tower that you were in.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the tower that you were in there was no way to process self-awareness and now you've embraced that.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so for our listeners you know I really you know Anne has an incredible life story.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: What I've gotten from your life story is not just a story of resilience but for me it's an incredible story of self-awareness because if it wasn't for your self-awareness at your parents' party and certain things bubbling up for you you would not be where you are right now.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: So so it starts with self-awareness it's love it's the love that your family had for you that although you couldn't be there for them in the way that you thought you should be the love was still there and that love has turned into a lifetime of joy.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thread that I see your life's journey and you know it's so incredible that anyone that's listening to this can can take parts of this for their life and you have such an incredible story.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you I want to thank you so much for sharing your journey with us and I have learned so much from this and as we get ready to wrap up share any last words or any anything you would like to share and also what what are you working on and where can the people find you because you know the people don't really know you have an incredible TikTok following so people where can they where can they find you?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well first and this is something that I tell people all the time and I think it's really important to understand that it doesn't matter how bad you think you messed up your life.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter how many mistakes you think you've made I thought I ruined my life I really did.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was certain of it but if you just continue to take small steps every day in the right direction or in a direction that is going to help you, you start to realize oh wait a minute I didn't ruin my life I made a lot of mistakes but I can take that and it can create strength for me.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It provides strength that you didn't even know you had.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the further you get away from it, as long as you do the work to figure out what happened to you so it doesn't happen again, you can become incredibly not just resilient, but consider it a almost a gift.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds weird, but I really truly believe that those 20 years really have they happened for some reason.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And even if they didn't happen for a reason I'm going to make them count and I'm going to take that experience and help others it it gives you more wisdom right those kind of things.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I just don't want people to think that their life is over because they had a bad relationship.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: My gosh I had three divorces you know before I was 35 two in Scientology one out.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And now I've been happily married to my husband for 15 years and he is the greatest person in my life the most loving supportive incredible man.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So again it doesn't matter what's happened in the past you can change your future you really can.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: It takes work it's not easy but it can be done.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So where can people find me?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Go to my TikTok it's Ann Gollert Hill G O L L E R T Hill you can go to my Substack Ann Hill Writes.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can go to my website Ann Gollert Hill.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm everywhere right now just getting the word out and I will keep you updated on the book progress.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: My editor's you know she's working hard but it takes time these I guess especially nowadays if you want a book there's so many books out there if I want this book to do what I think it can do I want to make sure it's the best possible message and that I'm getting it out in the best possible way so that people actually can read it and and feel like oh yeah okay I can do this you know absolutely and once again thank you thank you so much for being a guest here on Mosaic Sparks with Leslie George and I know that all the sparklers are going to love oh our message so once again thank you so much thank you with a joy