Latest / The Heart-Led Business Show / Cupping to Success: Dr. Tom Ingegno's Wellness Revolution

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Cupping to Success: Dr. Tom Ingegno's Wellness Revolution · The Heart-Led Business Show

• 0:01
  Speaker: Welcome to the Heart Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second.
• 0:20
  Speaker: From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So buckle up and let's go.
• 0:31
  Speaker: Let your heart guide your business journey.
• 0:36
  Tom Jackobs: Hold on to your hats, folks.
• 0:37
  Tom Jackobs: Today, we're tickled to talk to the terrific, top tier, tender hearted tutor of treatments Dr.
• 0:43
  Tom Jackobs: Tom Ingegno.
• 0:45
  Tom Jackobs: He's not just a charismatic clinician, he's the crowned king of cupping, cleverly combining comedy with wellness wisdom.
• 0:55
  Tom Jackobs: So tune in, tune up, and thrill your senses as we delve into the divine doings of his heart led business here on the Heart Led Business Show.
• 1:04
  Tom Jackobs: Tom, welcome to the show.
• 1:06
  Tom Ingegno: Wow, that alliteration, man.
• 1:08
  Tom Ingegno: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:09
  Tom Ingegno: I've never had an intro like that.
• 1:11
  Tom Ingegno: That's amazing.
• 1:12
  Tom Jackobs: No problem.
• 1:13
  Tom Jackobs: Happy to have you.
• 1:15
  Tom Jackobs: And those T's just get tongue tied a bit.
• 1:18
  Tom Ingegno: Twist it up, huh?
• 1:19
  Tom Jackobs: Yes.
• 1:20
  Tom Jackobs: And then I spit into my microphone.
• 1:23
  Tom Jackobs: So the first question that I love to ask everybody is what is your definition of a heart led business?
• 1:31
  Tom Ingegno: I think a heart led business is anything that has a bigger picture than just a bottom line, right?
• 1:37
  Tom Ingegno: It's something that helps you get up in the morning.
• 1:39
  Tom Ingegno: It's something that motivates you to do better and better.
• 1:42
  Tom Ingegno: And one that's really of service to others, right?
• 1:45
  Tom Ingegno: So that can be anything, right?
• 1:46
  Tom Ingegno: It could be healthcare.
• 1:47
  Tom Ingegno: It could be, even selling a product.
• 1:49
  Tom Ingegno: I know that sounds like cliche, but the idea of like, if I'm doing something to actually improve somebody's life.
• 1:55
  Tom Ingegno: And I really care about that.
• 1:57
  Tom Ingegno: That's a heart led business.
• 1:58
  Tom Jackobs: Awesome.
• 1:59
  Tom Jackobs: That's sweet.
• 1:59
  Tom Jackobs: That's a really good unique definition.
• 2:01
  Tom Jackobs: I appreciate that.
• 2:02
  Tom Jackobs: Thank you.
• 2:03
  Tom Jackobs: So what inspired you to start your heart led business?
• 2:08
  Tom Ingegno: I think and every time I tell this story I have like another little connection to something that happened when I was younger, but really, I always wanted to help people, and in my case, it was like the family discussion was you're going to be a doctor, right?
• 2:21
  Tom Ingegno: MD.
• 2:22
  Tom Ingegno: And throughout my formative years, those teen years, my grandfather was a pharmacist and I would go into the pharmacy to help him.
• 2:30
  Tom Ingegno: And one day he was counting out pills, and he was counting out pills for a migrant worker that, like, got cash at the end of the day, right?
• 2:36
  Tom Ingegno: And this is back in the early 90s, and he goes, this guy's gotta take three of these a day for the rest of his life.
• 2:41
  Tom Ingegno: They're five bucks a piece.
• 2:42
  Tom Ingegno: And at that time, this guy might have been getting 50, 60 bucks at the end of a day.
• 2:47
  Tom Ingegno: And he goes, he's gotta, he's gotta feed his family.
• 2:50
  Tom Ingegno: He's gotta, and he looked at me, and he said, there's gotta be a better way.
• 2:53
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm hoping you find it, right?
• 2:55
  Tom Ingegno: And that kind of got stuck in, in, in the back of my head.
• 2:57
  Tom Ingegno: I, I blacked that out, right?
• 2:58
  Tom Ingegno: He died a year or two later.
• 3:01
  Tom Ingegno: And the trauma of that kind of suppressed some of those memories.
• 3:05
  Tom Ingegno: And I was in college as a pre-med, as most, aspiring doctors are.
• 3:10
  Tom Ingegno: And through a series of events that I can only describe as either divine intervention or serendipitous or what, however you want to say it.
• 3:19
  Tom Ingegno: I ended up back home at another college with like shooting to go the D.
• 3:24
  Tom Ingegno: O.
• 3:24
  Tom Ingegno: route.
• 3:24
  Tom Ingegno: Oh, you're still a doctor.
• 3:25
  Tom Ingegno: It's just a different, title.
• 3:27
  Tom Ingegno: And I got a postcard in the mail for an acupuncture school in the intercession of my junior year.
• 3:34
  Tom Ingegno: And it was for an open house.
• 3:35
  Tom Ingegno: And I went to the open house and I, like, I was filling out the paperwork by the time I got home.
• 3:42
  Tom Ingegno: Two weeks later, I was enrolled and because I had so many credits beforehand, I actually got into the master's program already, right?
• 3:51
  Tom Ingegno: They were going to give you a bachelor's alongside of it.
• 3:53
  Tom Ingegno: So I skipped my senior year and just kept on going.
• 3:58
  Tom Jackobs: So what degree was that ultimately?
• 4:03
  Tom Ingegno: So, the bachelor's is professional health science.
• 4:06
  Tom Ingegno: The previous terminal level was a Masters of Science in Oriental Medicine.
• 4:12
  Tom Ingegno: We shy away from that word Oriental now.
• 4:14
  Tom Ingegno: We're calling it East Asian Medicine for several reasons.
• 4:17
  Tom Ingegno: It's more encompassing and less possibly racially fueled.
• 4:21
  Tom Ingegno: And then we were told during the time that the program was written at a doctorate level and eventually when they got the accreditation they would grandfather us in.
• 4:30
  Tom Ingegno: But as most colleges see everything as dollar signs, the doctorate program, when it was made available, was like, you can come back.
• 4:38
  Tom Ingegno: And it was funny because I did the doctorate after being out for, I think, 18 years in practice.
• 4:44
  Tom Ingegno: And the only reason I did it was because traditionally my program had started as like, a second career for people.
• 4:52
  Tom Ingegno: So I was in school in my twenties and the average age of an acupuncture student was 35 at the program I
• 4:57
  Tom Jackobs: Oh, wow.
• 4:59
  Tom Ingegno: So when I went back for the doctor and I'm like, well, I don't really need it.
• 5:02
  Tom Ingegno: I have an established practice.
• 5:04
  Tom Ingegno: I was already in the clinic I'm in now.
• 5:06
  Tom Ingegno: And at the same time I said, look, I'm too young.
• 5:10
  Tom Ingegno: If somebody else has a doctorate and they're my age.
• 5:13
  Tom Ingegno: and where you're just looking at the title, they won't see my years and years experience.
• 5:18
  Tom Ingegno: So I went back and I did the doctorate and the doctorate was only an additional year.
• 5:22
  Tom Ingegno: But you know, it, it bridged some gaps for me.
• 5:25
  Tom Ingegno: The main concentration in that was to like literally bridge the gap between Eastern and Western.
• 5:31
  Tom Ingegno: So we looked at a lot of clinical research.
• 5:33
  Tom Ingegno: We looked at a lot of peer reviewed studies.
• 5:35
  Tom Ingegno: How do I articulate this better to physicians and people in the Western world that don't want to sit there and hear about qi and channels and meridians and do that in a way that it doesn't cheapen the medicine that I hold so dear.
• 5:49
  Tom Ingegno: So in that regard, it was definitely worth it.
• 5:51
  Tom Ingegno: qi and channels and meridians It also made me write a CV, which I never had.
• 5:56
  Tom Ingegno: You look back and you go, you're self employed, right?
• 5:58
  Tom Ingegno: You're just grinding.
• 5:59
  Tom Ingegno: And then you're like, Oh crap, I did all this stuff.
• 6:02
  Tom Ingegno: Oh my God, it's 20 something pages.
• 6:04
  Tom Ingegno: You're going home.
• 6:05
  Tom Ingegno: It's never enough, right?
• 6:06
  Tom Ingegno: There were wired like that, self employed people are so driven that it's like, That's great.
• 6:11
  Tom Ingegno: Okay.
• 6:11
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 6:11
  Tom Ingegno: Put it over there.
• 6:12
  Tom Ingegno: I got to keep moving.
• 6:13
  Tom Ingegno: Like,
• 6:14
  Tom Jackobs: That's so funny.
• 6:15
  Tom Ingegno: So you got a lot, maybe the doctorate was just, to call yourself a doctor, but yeah, a couple of little bells and whistles.
• 6:21
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Tom Jackobs: Nice.
• 6:23
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 6:23
  Tom Jackobs: I think I had to create a CV for my visa application here in Taiwan.
• 6:27
  Tom Jackobs: I was like, what?
• 6:29
  Tom Jackobs: Remind me what a CV is.
• 6:31
  Tom Jackobs: So yeah, I was like, never like in 20 years, haven't done a resume or whatever, that's crazy.
• 6:38
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Tom Ingegno: I think my resume is still the one I used for to get into the acupuncture program.
• 6:43
  Tom Ingegno: I never updated that.
• 6:46
  Tom Ingegno: And then I applied for I, we're right near Johns Hopkins.
• 6:49
  Tom Ingegno: I'm in Baltimore, Maryland.
• 6:51
  Tom Ingegno: And a woman had me come in to talk to, she was a psychologist.
• 6:54
  Tom Ingegno: She had me talk to like all these mental health students, and this merger between like the mental and the physical that, that exists in East Asian medicine so well.
• 7:04
  Tom Ingegno: And at the end, she goes, look, I'm, I want to pitch you to teach, an elective here.
• 7:10
  Tom Ingegno: And she goes, send me your CV.
• 7:12
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm like, Oh, I don't have one of those.
• 7:14
  Tom Ingegno: And I updated a resume.
• 7:16
  Tom Ingegno: And then I saw like in her email signature, she had a link to her CV.
• 7:20
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm like, Oh my God.
• 7:22
  Tom Ingegno: It was like, it was 15 pages long.
• 7:24
  Tom Ingegno: It was filled with like research articles and I went, oh, I'm not playing the same game you are.
• 7:30
  Tom Ingegno: Like I didn't know.
• 7:32
  Tom Ingegno: But then the doctorate made me sit down and literally write everything that I've ever done in this field.
• 7:37
  Tom Ingegno: And that was an exercise that surprisingly even alongside other like research projects, I think that one was more tedious.
• 7:44
  Tom Ingegno: Going back and going, I was on that show and I, oh, I wrote that thing for this, and oh, is that website still even existing?
• 7:51
  Tom Jackobs: But what a great exercise just to recap what your career had been up to that point.
• 7:57
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Tom Jackobs: In having your heart led business and in being in practice for as long as you have.
• 8:03
  Tom Jackobs: There had to have been times that were a bit tough in terms of making the choice between, profit and being a heart led business.
• 8:12
  Tom Jackobs: And how did you navigate that?
• 8:14
  Tom Ingegno: I hate to say this, but you know, I've been practicing 23 years.
• 8:17
  Tom Ingegno: It's still a decision I have to deal with on the regular.
• 8:20
  Tom Ingegno: I mean, it's the profit margins for us were insurance based for acupuncture.
• 8:26
  Tom Ingegno: The margins aren't big.
• 8:27
  Tom Ingegno: I pay my staff well.
• 8:29
  Tom Ingegno: You know, they deserved it.
• 8:31
  Tom Ingegno: I think the thing that keeps me choosing to go in the direction I'm going in, rather than, closing up shop and figuring out a way to cash in, if you will is the people that are coming in the team that's developed.
• 8:47
  Tom Ingegno: I just finished, about a year ago, I finished a Goldman Sachs small business training, right?
• 8:52
  Tom Ingegno: And we cover every aspect of business.
• 8:54
  Tom Ingegno: It was absolutely amazing.
• 8:55
  Tom Ingegno: I recommend it to any self employed or business owner.
• 8:59
  Tom Ingegno: And we got to the part on the team, on the group, right?
• 9:04
  Tom Ingegno: And all these people are going, Oh, do you know how hard it is to find somebody?
• 9:08
  Tom Ingegno: And literally 90 percent of my staff has showed up at my door.
• 9:14
  Tom Ingegno: Like, right?
• 9:14
  Tom Ingegno: Hey I see what you're doing.
• 9:17
  Tom Ingegno: I've heard about you and like those things when they show up and they're like, we have an intern now.
• 9:25
  Tom Ingegno: I didn't ask for an intern.
• 9:26
  Tom Ingegno: She showed up one day and said, can I just follow you around?
• 9:29
  Tom Ingegno: And it's, Baltimore is, we call it Smalltimore.
• 9:32
  Tom Ingegno: It's a small city.
• 9:33
  Tom Ingegno: Everybody knows everybody.
• 9:35
  Tom Ingegno: So you watch what you say.
• 9:36
  Tom Ingegno: But within that to have that reputation of like, look, these guys really care and to have people that are like bitching about the younger generations, not wanting to work.
• 9:47
  Tom Ingegno: And these guys go, Above and beyond every day.
• 9:50
  Tom Ingegno: And it's not because I'm going like, you guys need to do this.
• 9:53
  Tom Ingegno: It's like, I come in and things are taken care of.
• 9:56
  Tom Ingegno: And Hey, Tom, this patient called, they had this question.
• 10:00
  Tom Ingegno: I told them that, is that okay?
• 10:01
  Tom Ingegno: You troubleshot for me.
• 10:04
  Tom Ingegno: And you did it better than I would have.
• 10:06
  Tom Ingegno: And it's because they get that mission.
• 10:09
  Tom Ingegno: They get the, we're here to help people.
• 10:11
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 10:12
  Tom Ingegno: So, even when it's like, well, what do we do here?
• 10:14
  Tom Ingegno: We really should charge them this.
• 10:16
  Tom Ingegno: We really should charge them that.
• 10:17
  Tom Ingegno: Like, we're not just going, here's the number.
• 10:19
  Tom Ingegno: It's what is this person going through and what can they actually afford this and how can we help them?
• 10:25
  Tom Ingegno: So, with that, sometimes you come up a little short, but more times than not you're really there for another person.
• 10:32
  Tom Ingegno: And to have that team, to have that community of people coming in that understand that.
• 10:37
  Tom Ingegno: That'll always make me choose that over just gross profits.
• 10:40
  Tom Ingegno: Yes, I want to be a millionaire, but I don't want to do it of anybody's back singly.
• 10:44
  Tom Ingegno: I want to make it comfortable and accessible as many people as possible.
• 10:49
  Tom Jackobs: So, think about the staff that didn't happen overnight and it wasn't a mistake.
• 10:55
  Tom Jackobs: So what did you specifically do to create an environment for the staff to thrive like that and carry on your mission?
• 11:06
  Tom Ingegno: yeah, I think when people come aboard, um, they see me, I get emotional.
• 11:11
  Tom Ingegno: I mean, you're not that you're supposed to be stoic.
• 11:14
  Tom Ingegno: But you know, and you're not supposed to internalize what the patient's going through, but you should have an, a tremendous amount of empathy and compassion, right?
• 11:22
  Tom Ingegno: So I, look, I'm a jackass.
• 11:24
  Tom Ingegno: I curse in the clinic all the time.
• 11:26
  Tom Ingegno: I'm loud.
• 11:26
  Tom Ingegno: I'm not the typical acupuncturist.
• 11:29
  Tom Ingegno: I'm not that stereotypical, quiet little thing that kind of creeps in, put some needles in, goes out.
• 11:34
  Tom Ingegno: I tell jokes.
• 11:35
  Tom Ingegno: I say things I probably shouldn't say in the clinic, but it's all coming from a place of.
• 11:41
  Tom Ingegno: How can I help?
• 11:42
  Tom Ingegno: How can I improve my craft?
• 11:44
  Tom Ingegno: And when we found our first kind of crew that shifted, right?
• 11:49
  Tom Ingegno: Like it wasn't always like that.
• 11:51
  Tom Ingegno: But then people who were coming into my clinic as patients were like, look, are you looking for help?
• 11:57
  Tom Ingegno: And we started hiring people based on that, like, oh, I've got a cousin or hey, my, spouse is looking for some work.
• 12:05
  Tom Ingegno: And then eventually I remember, oh God, Ashley Ashley was my office manager, and I, she came in I hired her like immediately before we closed for COVID.
• 12:15
  Tom Jackobs: Oh, wow.
• 12:16
  Tom Ingegno: and I was like look we're not starting why there's an order for us to, shelter in place, basically.
• 12:24
  Tom Ingegno: So we were in communication with her and one of my now associates, who was an acupuncture student, Corey and the two of them just hung out, waited for us to open back up and we're ready to go.
• 12:38
  Tom Ingegno: And that was, with all the horrible stuff that happened with COVID, that was a do over for me.
• 12:45
  Tom Ingegno: It was this kind of time where I could go, look, I think we did this well.
• 12:50
  Tom Ingegno: Here's what I don't think we did well, and we started training off of that.
• 12:56
  Tom Ingegno: Like, here's the things I want to see in this clinic.
• 12:59
  Tom Ingegno: And when Ashley graduated, she got a job and it's like a perfect job for her, right?
• 13:04
  Tom Ingegno: I mean, she just, she's just such an amazing, vibrant person that while I was sad to see her leave, I was like a proud dad.
• 13:11
  Tom Ingegno: It's like, Oh my God, you're doing the thing, right?
• 13:13
  Tom Ingegno: She's now in a heart led position, right?
• 13:16
  Tom Ingegno: And here I am going, Oh my God, I'm losing my right hand, man.
• 13:19
  Tom Ingegno: But at the same time, she goes, don't worry.
• 13:21
  Tom Ingegno: I found two people.
• 13:23
  Tom Ingegno: She brought in two front desk people and I'm like, I didn't even meet them.
• 13:27
  Tom Ingegno: And then I met them and I went, Oh my, yeah, no, they're perfect.
• 13:30
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 13:31
  Tom Ingegno: They're perfect.
• 13:31
  Tom Ingegno: And same thing.
• 13:32
  Tom Ingegno: They just love what they do.
• 13:35
  Tom Ingegno: I had friends over and we did a little thing at my office and one of them said, you want me to hang out and help you so you can just converse with them rather than run people through these machines?
• 13:44
  Tom Ingegno: And I go, yeah, totally.
• 13:45
  Tom Ingegno: And they kept going, no, what's he really like as a boss?
• 13:49
  Tom Ingegno: And she, she goes, no, you don't understand.
• 13:52
  Tom Ingegno: This is the best job I've ever had.
• 13:55
  Tom Ingegno: I get to help people.
• 13:56
  Tom Ingegno: I feel like I'm making a difference in their life.
• 13:58
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 13:59
  Tom Ingegno: So I'm like, Oh, she gets it.
• 14:00
  Tom Ingegno: And it turns out her sister's an acupuncturist, so she's like around it all the time anyway, but you know, when you come at it.
• 14:08
  Tom Ingegno: And you have to transmit that passion.
• 14:10
  Tom Ingegno: You have to transmit that mission.
• 14:12
  Tom Ingegno: And it's not just in the words you say, you can't just say, Hey, we're here for the people, right?
• 14:18
  Tom Ingegno: It's, Hey, Tom, look, I noticed this.
• 14:21
  Tom Ingegno: Okay.
• 14:22
  Tom Ingegno: Please call that person, tell them X, Y, and Z and let them know they can reach out to me directly.
• 14:29
  Tom Ingegno: If they need anything, right?
• 14:31
  Tom Ingegno: Let them know you're there.
• 14:32
  Tom Ingegno: Let them know you're accountable and you're showing up and those things, when they see that, that starts to register and, that, that happened over time.
• 14:40
  Tom Ingegno: This staff has been with me since COVID the longest of any staff I've had.
• 14:45
  Tom Ingegno: We need another massage therapist.
• 14:47
  Tom Ingegno: We're working on that, but, the majority of them really just, really just like the space.
• 14:52
  Tom Ingegno: They get to like what they do.
• 14:53
  Tom Ingegno: They, I'm not yelling at people.
• 14:55
  Tom Ingegno: This is fortunately not one of those positions where like.
• 14:58
  Tom Ingegno: And the other thing is, and I think this is silly in a lot of things and especially in the corporate world, you mess up as long as no one dies, man, come, is it, can't we go back and fix this?
• 15:08
  Tom Ingegno: I'd rather have it fixed and hey, look, we all learned something here.
• 15:12
  Tom Ingegno: As, as long as I don't have to put a padlock on the door and go, no yeah let's take this as a moment to learn and figure out how to do this better.
• 15:19
  Tom Ingegno: And I think the staff gets that.
• 15:20
  Tom Ingegno: They know they can come to me and go, look I, need this day off or, and I'm not going to go, Oh my God, no, you need to show up.
• 15:26
  Tom Ingegno: Because at the end of the day when you're trying to help people It has to happen, like, this is a lesson I'm trying to learn.
• 15:33
  Tom Ingegno: It has to happen within yourself first, right?
• 15:35
  Tom Ingegno: So I have to be more gentle with myself and more tender with myself.
• 15:40
  Tom Ingegno: And that's going to be a lifelong lesson but the staff that's around me, the ones that are making me look good, I have to make sure that they're comfortable and functioning well, Hey, do you need anything is a thing I ask a lot, And it's like, they might ask for more money and it's like, I don't know if I can do that, but let me see how I can better support.
• 15:59
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 15:59
  Tom Ingegno: So, we really try and have that open and honest conversation.
• 16:03
  Tom Ingegno: I don't like when companies say we're a family, right?
• 16:06
  Tom Ingegno: That always sounds so canned.
• 16:07
  Tom Ingegno: And so, but to actually care about the people that are working with you on a level, like, like a, an appropriate level, but you know, hey, this is another person that has needs and sometimes needs a hand up and some help.
• 16:21
  Tom Ingegno: And then that resonates directly to the people that are walking in the front door.
• 16:25
  Tom Ingegno: They feel it.
• 16:26
  Tom Ingegno: They get it.
• 16:26
  Tom Jackobs: In just summarizing that, you set the tone with the employees, you take care of the employees, who then further take care of the patients that come in to the door.
• 16:37
  Tom Jackobs: That's, I mean, that's how business should be run.
• 16:41
  Tom Jackobs: Unfortunately, you see some of these organizations, I've been in corporate work for 12 years when I first got out of school and it was not, we don't take care of our people first.
• 16:53
  Tom Jackobs: We take care of our shareholders first.
• 16:56
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah, run them into the ground and, honestly, if somebody dies on the job, there's a job listing an hour later up on Indeed.
• 17:02
  Tom Ingegno: When Ashley left, I told that story.
• 17:04
  Tom Ingegno: I had two other things happen.
• 17:06
  Tom Ingegno: I had somebody that had been working with us.
• 17:07
  Tom Ingegno: She also got a dream job and I'm going, Oh my God, all my staff is graduating.
• 17:14
  Tom Ingegno: And then who my office manager now, her name's Hannah.
• 17:16
  Tom Ingegno: We call her Hank.
• 17:17
  Tom Ingegno: She came with that nickname.
• 17:18
  Tom Ingegno: I love it.
• 17:19
  Tom Ingegno: I don't want to change it.
• 17:20
  Tom Ingegno: She looked at me that same week, like two days later and she goes, I know what I want to do with my life.
• 17:24
  Tom Ingegno: I go, what?
• 17:25
  Tom Ingegno: And she goes, I want to be an accumulator.
• 17:27
  Tom Ingegno: And like, I literally I cried.
• 17:30
  Tom Ingegno: I was like are you kidding me?
• 17:32
  Tom Ingegno: Like this bittersweet thing.
• 17:33
  Tom Ingegno: And then I was like now I'm thinking, all right, she's got another year and a half.
• 17:37
  Tom Ingegno: We're going to have to get a bigger office.
• 17:39
  Tom Ingegno: I need more treatment rooms.
• 17:41
  Tom Ingegno: I'm like, because these people that, I hear these horror stories of people not being able to find good people and I'm like, I'm, I literally don't have places to put them.
• 17:52
  Tom Ingegno: So I, I mean, a great problem to have and, those people.
• 17:56
  Tom Ingegno: Specialy Hank, I think she gets it all and I think she's going to be a terrific acupuncturist.
• 18:01
  Tom Ingegno: I mean, Corey who's been out a few years now.
• 18:05
  Tom Ingegno: God, I wish I had her clinical prowess when I was that young, I'd be so much further along now.
• 18:11
  Tom Ingegno: And they're just compassionate.
• 18:14
  Tom Ingegno: They're level headed.
• 18:15
  Tom Ingegno: They're thinking with their hearts and their heads, every single one of them.
• 18:20
  Tom Ingegno: And really I'm sorry, I'm like gushing over them, but I have like 10 people that I really care about.
• 18:26
  Tom Jackobs: Well, I mean, it does sound like a family, to be honest.
• 18:29
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 18:33
  Tom Ingegno: And, like, I mean, they hang out, they go to each other's kids birthday parties and stuff, and it's I like that.
• 18:39
  Tom Ingegno: It's, if you're gonna be, if you're gonna be somewhere the majority of the day, Isn't it great to be somewhere where you're appreciated and where you like what you're doing and where you have pleasant interactions with people?
• 18:51
  Tom Ingegno: I mean, God, if I sat in the car for two hours I would have, there would have been some road rage.
• 18:56
  I
• 18:56
  Tom Ingegno: wouldn't be having this interview right now.
• 18:58
  Tom Ingegno: You'd be like, that guy does not have a heart led business but to get to like, be revitalized by the people that work for me.
• 19:04
  Tom Ingegno: Like, you don't, like, I get burnt out pretty easily cause I'm dumping my heart and soul into this.
• 19:09
  Tom Ingegno: And like, Hey Tom, do you need anything?
• 19:12
  Tom Ingegno: Like, they'll ask me.
• 19:13
  Tom Jackobs: Oh, that's awesome.
• 19:14
  Tom Ingegno: It's like, wow.
• 19:15
  Tom Ingegno: Oh God.
• 19:16
  Tom Ingegno: It's so, so amazing.
• 19:17
  Tom Jackobs: Well, it's a testament to your leadership as well.
• 19:20
  Tom Jackobs: And to contrast that the people that are complaining, oh, I can't find good staff.
• 19:23
  Tom Jackobs: They really need to look internally and see why they're repelling good staff.
• 19:29
  Tom Jackobs: Because that's really what it is.
• 19:30
  Tom Ingegno: Oh yeah.
• 19:31
  Tom Ingegno: Or why their best people are leaving.
• 19:33
  Tom Ingegno: That's the other thing.
• 19:34
  Tom Ingegno: They get somebody great and they're like, I don't know why this person left.
• 19:37
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm like, I don't think you were listening to them.
• 19:39
  Tom Ingegno: They probably gave you signals all the way along and you're like, they didn't like the 60 hour work week.
• 19:44
  Tom Jackobs: Or the toxic work environment.
• 19:46
  Tom Ingegno: Well, and I used to say things like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to ask you to do anything.
• 19:50
  Tom Ingegno: I wouldn't do myself.
• 19:52
  Tom Ingegno: So sometimes that's me scrubbing a toilet, but once again, lead by example.
• 19:56
  Tom Ingegno: And then I come in and things are clean, and things are put away, and things that, like, I didn't, did you reorganize this?
• 20:02
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 20:03
  Tom Ingegno: Oh, I didn't ask you to do that.
• 20:04
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah, but I, it was, it figured I'd clean it up for you.
• 20:07
  Tom Ingegno: I,
• 20:08
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, that's great.
• 20:12
  Tom Jackobs: So how do you balance then leading with the heart, taking care of your staff and also making a profit?
• 20:20
  Tom Ingegno: I, that, that is something, that that you're, I'm constantly trying to re navigate.
• 20:27
  Tom Ingegno: So there's times when we have cash and I don't have time and there's times where I don't have cash and I have plenty of time.
• 20:33
  Tom Ingegno: And with that, what I'm trying to do is look at, I took COVID as this opportunity to see where gaps were, right?
• 20:42
  Tom Ingegno: Like even a full clinic, what does that look like?
• 20:44
  Tom Ingegno: What kind of profit margin would that be a full clinic?
• 20:47
  Tom Ingegno: And then not only that, how do I have the biggest impact on people that can't get to my clinic?
• 20:54
  Tom Ingegno: So I'm doing podcasts like this one.
• 20:56
  Tom Ingegno: Why?
• 20:56
  Tom Ingegno: To share the message of natural health.
• 20:59
  Tom Ingegno: I wrote a book to like further impact people that may be not in the area that want to take some practices into their own hands.
• 21:07
  Tom Ingegno: I'm looking to lecture one, cause that'll feed back to the brick and mortar for people that are in Baltimore and in town.
• 21:13
  Tom Ingegno: Two, it'll establish credibility.
• 21:15
  Tom Ingegno: We talk about that a lot, right?
• 21:16
  Tom Ingegno: Why'd you write the book?
• 21:17
  Tom Ingegno: Oh, it's not going to be a New York times bestseller.
• 21:19
  Tom Ingegno: Hopefully I sell a hundred of them.
• 21:20
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 21:21
  Tom Ingegno: But the idea is we've already sold over a hundred.
• 21:23
  Tom Ingegno: I'm very happy about that.
• 21:25
  Tom Ingegno: But with that, how do I have that impact on a bigger scale?
• 21:29
  Tom Ingegno: So I think for me It's the scalability thing.
• 21:33
  Tom Ingegno: That's how I'm going to get into that profit area that I want.
• 21:36
  Tom Ingegno: So once again, could I bleed a hundred patients as much as possible?
• 21:40
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah, I probably could and do okay.
• 21:42
  Tom Ingegno: Or can I get to a thousand people, a hundred thousand people and just say, Hey, look here's a little bit of my knowledge for a little cost.
• 21:50
  Tom Ingegno: Is that worth it to you?
• 21:52
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 21:52
  Tom Ingegno: And be able to share.
• 21:53
  Tom Ingegno: And then to the point in your book, follow up.
• 21:56
  Tom Ingegno: Well, what else can I do for you?
• 21:58
  Tom Ingegno: How can I better serve you?
• 21:59
  Tom Ingegno: How can I get to the root of your problems?
• 22:02
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm enjoying these conversations that I'm having with podcasts.
• 22:06
  Tom Ingegno: We have our own podcast and, I'm going to say this, cause I just found this out yesterday.
• 22:11
  Tom Ingegno: We were nominated for best acupuncturist in Baltimore by the Baltimore Sun.
• 22:15
  Tom Ingegno: And then unbeknownst to me, my podcast Irreverent Health was nominated for best podcast.
• 22:22
  Tom Ingegno: And I'm like, which one of you bastards did that?
• 22:24
  Tom Ingegno: There's like 10 listeners.
• 22:26
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 22:27
  Tom Ingegno: Which one of you nominated us?
• 22:29
  Tom Ingegno: But I think it's the testament that like people are getting that mission.
• 22:34
  Tom Ingegno: So, yeah, am I worried about finances?
• 22:38
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah, because I have to keep the doors open.
• 22:39
  Tom Ingegno: I have to keep my family and clothes and food and, in a shelter.
• 22:43
  Tom Ingegno: But within that, I think the further I go down this.
• 22:48
  Tom Ingegno: That scalability is there, and it's not a heavy lift because I'm not burdening somebody.
• 22:53
  Tom Ingegno: Like, look, if I had an amazing product that cost a significant amount of money, yeah, I'd be selling that.
• 22:58
  Tom Ingegno: But what I have costs what it costs, and how can I deliver that the best way possible so more people want it is what I'm trying to do.
• 23:07
  Tom Jackobs: Okay.
• 23:08
  Tom Jackobs: No, that totally makes sense.
• 23:10
  Tom Jackobs: And falls in line with the whole, think about the people first and the value that you're providing to them.
• 23:18
  Tom Jackobs: And then the profit will happen as long as you're, not selling something for less than it costs to make.
• 23:25
  Tom Ingegno: No! We are definitely not.
• 23:27
  Tom Ingegno: Fair market value, right?
• 23:29
  Tom Ingegno: They'll say, what does the market bear?
• 23:31
  Tom Ingegno: And I think we're right there.
• 23:32
  Tom Ingegno: I think the quality and level is at the high end of what we do.
• 23:37
  Tom Ingegno: And because we're dealing with insurance, we're a little restricted in that, right?
• 23:41
  Tom Ingegno: I can't be like, I'll write 10, 000 down on the bill.
• 23:44
  Tom Ingegno: They'll go, Hey, we'll give you 80 bucks.
• 23:45
  Tom Ingegno: Take it or leave it.
• 23:46
  Tom Ingegno: No, you signed a contract, man.
• 23:48
  Tom Ingegno: But when you have people that get that, that you're driven to actually improving their lives, they check in a lot more, right?
• 23:55
  Tom Ingegno: We have a membership model for some of the services that are not practitioner driven.
• 24:00
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 24:01
  Tom Ingegno: And COVID made that shift.
• 24:03
  Tom Ingegno: Oh, I gotta take care of my health.
• 24:04
  Tom Ingegno: I have to invest.
• 24:05
  Tom Ingegno: Let me pay this little bit.
• 24:07
  Tom Ingegno: Come in.
• 24:08
  Tom Ingegno: Check in with the crew that's there.
• 24:10
  Tom Ingegno: They know what I'm going through.
• 24:11
  Tom Ingegno: They know my family.
• 24:12
  Tom Ingegno: They know, what I did over the weekend.
• 24:15
  Tom Ingegno: And, I get to hang out, I get to talk to people and have it be a real community, right?
• 24:21
  Tom Ingegno: One of the greatest things, and we're talking about the business side of this there, there's a story and I don't know when it happened historically, right?
• 24:28
  Tom Ingegno: I'm not a historian but like the village healer, the acupuncturist, the doctor, whatever you want to call them at that time in China, everybody gave the guy a little bit of money as long, so long as you were healthy.
• 24:39
  Tom Ingegno: If you got sick, you didn't pay.
• 24:41
  Tom Ingegno: So not only is it in the practitioner's best interest to go like, do you need anything?
• 24:48
  Tom Ingegno: Are you feeling okay?
• 24:49
  Tom Ingegno: You sleeping?
• 24:49
  Tom Ingegno: Did you get, do you get something to eat?
• 24:51
  Tom Ingegno: Making sure that you're feeling optimal.
• 24:54
  Tom Ingegno: So that's like, I can't just be like, all right, everybody give me 20 bucks
• 24:59
  Tom Jackobs: Well,
• 24:59
  Tom Ingegno: stop if you feel sick.
• 25:01
  Tom Jackobs: yeah.
• 25:02
  Tom Jackobs: But it incentivizes the practitioner to make sure everybody's healthy and not sick.
• 25:07
  Tom Jackobs: I mean, that would be an interesting insurance model that the practitioner only gets paid for the patients that don't come in.
• 25:15
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Tom Ingegno: And we're starting to see this.
• 25:18
  Tom Ingegno: What do they call it?
• 25:20
  Tom Ingegno: They call it outcome based, payment, right?
• 25:23
  Tom Ingegno: And it's a weird model.
• 25:24
  Tom Ingegno: They're starting to see it on a bigger scale because services like ours, where it's like a therapy and we don't exactly know how many treatments you're going to need.
• 25:33
  Tom Ingegno: It's a little bit trickier, but the membership model for these services that we, that, that are unassisted, that don't need a clinician for why not look at that like that?
• 25:43
  Tom Ingegno: Why?
• 25:43
  Tom Ingegno: Because it should be more like a gym.
• 25:45
  Tom Ingegno: Why?
• 25:45
  Tom Ingegno: Because you're not going to go to the gym once and now all of a sudden your cardiovascular health and your muscle testing and your bone density is going to be where you want it to be.
• 25:53
  Tom Ingegno: But you know, that is a commitment.
• 25:56
  Tom Ingegno: And look, we're doing really well with the membership model.
• 26:00
  Tom Ingegno: Our clinic, the practitioner part is they're busy, and you get more skill by practicing.
• 26:06
  Tom Ingegno: So we're increasing our value to our patients and we're into the community as a whole.
• 26:13
  Tom Ingegno: And, I was at an event and the governor and this blew me away.
• 26:17
  Tom Ingegno: Wow.
• 26:17
  Tom Ingegno: I sound like I'm bragging now.
• 26:19
  Tom Ingegno: But the governor came up to me at this event, right?
• 26:21
  Tom Ingegno: And, I'm not one of these guys that's gonna throw myself in front and like, Let's take a photo and here's my card.
• 26:27
  Tom Ingegno: And he goes, Hey man, I heard about your spot from at least six different people.
• 26:32
  Tom Ingegno: Now, it's one thing for a politician to say like, Oh, I love that.
• 26:37
  Tom Ingegno: Or I heard you're good or some, but like, that's no.
• 26:40
  Tom Ingegno: Then I'm literally going through my phone going, alright, which one knows the governor?
• 26:46
  Tom Ingegno: Who was it?
• 26:47
  Tom Ingegno: But no, really.
• 26:48
  Tom Ingegno: He's in Annapolis, he's not in Baltimore, and he heard of us.
• 26:52
  Tom Ingegno: And that is that community building that is that reputation that's taking care of people that eventually pays out, right?
• 26:59
  Tom Jackobs: It's good to be recognized as well.
• 27:01
  Tom Jackobs: That's great for what you do.
• 27:03
  Tom Jackobs: And I, talking about back to your, the membership model, and then the practitioners being very busy.
• 27:09
  Tom Jackobs: Do you feel like the membership model is feeding the practitioners because you're getting the people acclimated to coming in more often?
• 27:17
  Tom Ingegno: Goes in both directions, right?
• 27:19
  Tom Ingegno: So my mentor used to he had a a teacher in Japan who was blind.
• 27:23
  Tom Ingegno: His name was Goto Sensei.
• 27:25
  Tom Ingegno: Now watch it.
• 27:25
  Tom Ingegno: That's not the blind one.
• 27:26
  Tom Ingegno: And I messed that story up, but he would say that he doesn't give advice because it wastes his breath and hurts the patient's ears.
• 27:34
  Tom Ingegno: So my teacher said, I heard you just have a conversation about what a guy should be eating.
• 27:40
  Tom Ingegno: And he goes no.
• 27:41
  Tom Ingegno: He asked, right?
• 27:43
  Tom Ingegno: So the driving force was this person was ready to accept that information.
• 27:48
  Tom Ingegno: So we have a bunch of services.
• 27:51
  Tom Ingegno: People can come in, quote unquote, a la carte, get that one thing.
• 27:55
  Tom Ingegno: But what we see happening is at a certain point, and this goes both directions from the membership.
• 28:01
  Tom Ingegno: And from the, the massage and the acupuncture and all the private services we do, where they want to own their health.
• 28:09
  Tom Ingegno: And they go, what else do you do here that you think would be appropriate?
• 28:12
  Tom Ingegno: Right.
• 28:13
  Tom Ingegno: And then we get this time to educate and say, what do you think of this?
• 28:17
  Tom Ingegno: Right?
• 28:18
  Tom Ingegno: And that's where we see the crossover and it goes in both directions.
• 28:21
  Tom Ingegno: Maybe they're just coming in for like the cold plunge and they go, Oh, you got a sauna too?
• 28:26
  Tom Ingegno: Oh, let me do the cold plunge and then the sauna.
• 28:28
  Tom Ingegno: And hey, you know what?
• 28:30
  Tom Ingegno: I was at the gym this weekend.
• 28:31
  Tom Ingegno: This happened.
• 28:32
  Tom Ingegno: What do you got?
• 28:33
  Tom Ingegno: Okay, well, maybe you need acupuncture this week or let's try some cupping, right?
• 28:37
  Tom Ingegno: So it's not about being all things to all people.
• 28:40
  Tom Ingegno: It's just understanding what works and plays well together.
• 28:45
  Tom Ingegno: And then how to distribute that when it's appropriate to the person that needs it at that time.
• 28:50
  Tom Ingegno: And I think, yeah, we get a lot of crossover in both directions
• 28:53
  Tom Jackobs: That's nice.
• 28:54
  Tom Jackobs: That's good.
• 28:55
  Tom Jackobs: Smart.
• 28:56
  Tom Jackobs: Awesome.
• 28:57
  Tom Jackobs: Well, we're getting to the end of our time together.
• 29:00
  Tom Jackobs: So I'd love for you to share with the audience how they can learn a little bit more about you and your practice and maybe some of your books.
• 29:07
  Tom Ingegno: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Tom Ingegno: So, the big one is that's gonna be our clinic website.
• 29:10
  Tom Ingegno: It is the juggernaut.
• 29:11
  Tom Ingegno: It has everything it'll fit.
• 29:13
  Tom Ingegno: You'll find all about me.
• 29:14
  Tom Ingegno: If people want to book me for lectures or figure out where the book is it's charmcityintegrative.com.
• 29:21
  Tom Ingegno: If you're looking for the book, I teach how to do cupping safely without fire at home.
• 29:27
  Tom Ingegno: The book is called the cupping book and the website is called thecuppingbook.com.
• 29:31
  Tom Ingegno: But if you go to charmcityintegrative.com, you will find out all about me, the clinic, and every link you need will be there.
• 29:39
  Tom Jackobs: Awesome.
• 29:39
  Tom Jackobs: We'll be sure to put that into the show notes as well.
• 29:42
  Tom Jackobs: So that'll be easy for everybody to find.
• 29:45
  Tom Jackobs: So Tom, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your heart with all of our audience.
• 29:51
  Tom Jackobs: I certainly appreciate it.
• 29:52
  Tom Ingegno: Alright, Tom, this was so much fun.
• 29:54
  Tom Ingegno: Thank you for having me.
• 29:55
  Tom Jackobs: Absolutely! And as a reminder to our listeners, if you could do what other smart and considerate listeners do, and that is sharing this podcast with those that are having a heart led business and maybe having a little struggle with their profit and understanding how to integrate both of those things together.
• 30:13
  Tom Jackobs: This show is all about helping them in sharing stories from others that are going through or have gone through similar situations.
• 30:20
  Tom Jackobs: So until next time, lead with your heart.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Heart Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.