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The Teachings of Jodi Hildebrandt · Legally Brunette

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I will be your host Emily Simpson with Shane with Shane,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: but I hope everybody had a good holiday. We're back
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: after the Christmas and New Year break, and before we
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: get into we're going to talk about Jody Hildebrandt, who
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: if you followed us along from the beginning, we did
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: an earlier episode on Ruby Frankie, which is the mom
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: influencer in Utah that was arrested I think it was
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, maybe not too long ago, for four
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: counts of child abuse and she is currently in prison.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: But if you listen to our earlier episodes, you know
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: that Jody hilda Brandt was the therapist that moved into
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the home and had a lot of influence over the
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: family and ended up being arrested as well.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Criminal therapist.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: The criminal therapist, Right, So there's a new Netflix show
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: out that really focuses just on Jody hilda Brandt. So
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: that's what we're going to talk about today. But before
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: we get into that, let's just do a little update.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: There's been information that has come out recently on Brian Coburger. Again,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: if you remember Brian Coburger is the Idaho college murderer.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: He's in prison. Remember he did not go to trial.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: He took a plea deal so he could avoid the
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: death penalty.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Right, so he's part of his perfect crime strategy.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Yes that he's guilty. He's guilty because he wants to
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: avoid the death penalty. So if you have not listened
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: to that episode, it's a really good one. I think
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: we might have actually done two episodes on the Idaho murders,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: so you can always find those on our feed. Legally
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Brunette So, Brian Coberger's sister has spoken publicly about the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: last holidays she's spent with him. Just days before law
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: enforcement and descended on her parents Pennsylvania home and arrested
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: him in connection with the fatal stabbings of the four
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: University of Idaho students. You know, this is something I
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: was thinking about when we talked about even Brian Coburger
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: or Luigi MANNGIONI. We haven't done one on him, but
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I always wondered. Those are very infamous people that are
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: in the news. Everybody recognizes the face and the name.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: It's very huge and true crime.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Even if you don't follow true crime I know what's
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: going on, so.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: And you know a little bit, but you don't really
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Like with Luigi Mangioni, you don't hear anything from like
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: what his family. You don't see what are they gonna do? No,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying photos no, But I'm saying I feel
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: like they take a step back and hide.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Out, because again, what would you expect him to do.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I would think that if they were out and about,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: like he's so huge, that paparazzi would be taking photos
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of them or trying to get statements from them or
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: contacting them. But you don't see anything the same with
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Brian Coberger, like he was such a I.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Don't know if people are really interested in finding out
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: what extended family has to say about him.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I want to know what his parents think about him
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: being a murderer of four college students, and so anyway,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I am going to DM his sister.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: So.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: In an interview she did recently with The New York Times,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: mel Coburger said she became physically ill when she learned
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: of her brother's arrest and assisted she had no prior
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: knowledge of the crimes. She said, I have always been
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: a person who has spoken up for what was right.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: If I ever had a reason to believe my brother
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: did anything, I would have turned him in. Weeks after
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: the killings, in early December, Brian Coberger returned home to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and spent Christmas with his family. According to his sister, Mel,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: nothing about the holiday raised alarms. She recalled him participating
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: in family games eating vegan cookies. I'm glad they were
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: vegan for him that their mother had made specifically for him,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: and she also said he appeared disturbed at the sight
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: of blood when their mother accidentally cut herself while handling foil. Well,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: that's the really, honestly, what I just read is just
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the characteristics of a psychopath, someone that can sneak into
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: someone's home and brutally murder for college students in the
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: middle of the night, and then go home and spend
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: the holidays with your family and act like nothing happened.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, and you know, be more focused on
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: your vegan cookies.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Exactly five days after Christmas, the FBI agents arrived at
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: the family home and took Coburger into custody. Mel, the sister,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: said she was no longer staying there at the time,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and learned what had happened through her sister, Amanda mel
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: who had been studying psychology herself, said her brother had
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: struggled for years, including a period of heroin addiction that
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: she attributed to severe bullying during high school. She disclosed
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: that he once took her phone and tried selling it
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: eth a mall to pay for drugs. The family feared
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: for his life during that time, but believed he had
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: recovered after treatment and academic success at the Sales University,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: followed by doctoral studies in criminology, which he was at
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Washington State University when the murders happened. Let's move on
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: to Jody hilda brand So. The show on Netflix is
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: called Evil Influencer The Jody Hildebrandt Story. I watched it
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: a couple times actually in ah. First of all, I
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: hesitated whether we talk about it or not, because I
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: felt like maybe it was just again because we did
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the Ruby Frankie. We watched the I watched the documentary
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: on Ruby Frankie, so I didn't know if there was
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of information. But really I found this interesting
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: because it didn't focus on Ruby so much. Obviously, it
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: goes into Jody and it goes into her past. So
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: you get a more I think three sixty view of
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: how she ended up becoming as influential as she is,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: because I think the question in my mind the whole
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: time I'm watching it is how was she able to
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: influence so many people and so easily so. Jody Hildebrant
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: is a former Utah therapist and life coach who became
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: closely involved with family vlogger Ruby Frankie. It was a
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: partnership that ultimately led to one of the most disturbing
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: child abuse cases in recent years. In August of twenty
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: twenty three, Hildebrant and Frankie were arrested after Frankie's twelve
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: year old son escaped from Hildebrand's home severely malnourished and injured,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: prompting police to uncover evidence of prolonged physical and emotional
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: abuse which was inflicted on the two youngest children. Those
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: are Frankie's youngest children. So the documentary actually starts out
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: with that ring footage, and we did talk about it
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: when we did the Ruby Frankie case. But the ring footage,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: even though I had seen it before, and I had
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: seen it multiple times before, even watching this new episode
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: got no I wasn't desensitized. I cried again when I
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: saw it. And you know what really made me, I
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: think break down the most is when the child escapes.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Apparently this was the second time he escaped. The first
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: time they found him and brought him back to the house,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: but this was the second time. I think he escaped
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: through a window and he goes to the neighbor's home,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: and they have the ring footage so you can see it,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: and they also have the nine to one one call
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: and all that, so you can hear everything that's going on.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: But when the man opens or when he you know,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: he replies to the ring through the ring, he sounds
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: like he's irritated, right, because it's like some young boys
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: on his porch ring.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: He might even not like the mom, so he might
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: be thinking the crazy kids from next door, well, yeah,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I don't bothering me again, not knowing the full length
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: of what's going right.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: So you can tell he's kind of irritated when he's like,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: what do you want? You know, and the kids walking away,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: but you can see him come back and he's like
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: it's personal business, and he's you know, the guy's kind
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, what's going on, you know,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: why are you bothering me? Kind of thing. But then
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: you can tell you can hear it.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Changed he saw that the child was in danger.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: You can hear a shift. He actually when he calls
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: nine to one one, and you can hear it, he
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: actually starts to sob when he's talking about the child
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: because he talks about how his he has duct tape
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: around his wrists and his ankles, and he's emaciated and
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: he has scarring.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: He weighed like fifty pounds.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so it was really emotional to watch that. Again.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: No, I just wanted to say something because they say
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: it was one of them horrific child abuse cases, disturbing,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: disturbing in recent years. But I disagree with that. I
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: bet disturbing child abuse cases happen all the time. Just
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: this one surfaced on video camera so we got to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: see it. But I don't want to overlook all the
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: suffering that there's a lot of kids that have to
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: go through. It just doesn't get this level of attention.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: No, And it got this level of attention because Ruby
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Frankie had her YouTube channel which was eight Passengers, and
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: so she already had notoriety and I believe at the
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: height of their YouTube channel, she had around two million subscribers,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: so it was huge. People really knew who she was,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: especially in that Utah type of community. And you know,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: everything was about posting about you know, not only the
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: church and church teachings, but also just family life and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: how to raise six kids. And you know, she put
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: herself out there is like this amazing mother that does
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: it all right, so people are following her, right.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: So it was a fall of this eight passenger mony.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: So Jody Hildebrandt was raised in the Church of Jesus
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Christ of Latter day Saints and completed a mission after
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: high school. And Netflix's Evil Influencer, Jody's missionary partner recalls
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: that she was once a beauty pageant contestant and star
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: basketball player, and says she was particularly effective at persuading
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: others to join the LDS Church. It's been noted that
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Hildebrant has shared limited details about her personal life over
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: the years. In past talk, she has said that she
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: married her husband in nineteen ninety three and had two children,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: but the marriage ended in divorce just three years later.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: She has not publicly identified her former husband or children,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: and has acknowledged that she is estranged from her kids. Now,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: this is interesting to me because this woman holds, how
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: it starts, holds herself out to be a marriage therapist.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: It'd be like me being an alcoholic like sponsor or
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: whatever and being an alcoholic. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: So she holds herself out to be a therapist of
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: marriages and to be an expert on parenting children, even
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: though she has two adult children that she's estranged from.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: And I tried to find information on them. You can't
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: find anything. Whoever these two kids are. I feel like
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: they've changed their name and they've scrubbed themselves from the internet,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: and they want nothing to do with her. You can't
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: find it.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Who knows. They might have been adopted by the stepmother
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: or something like that long ago, and I don't know.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: She wouldn't care anyway, she didn't strange for them.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: But this woman never remarried and never had more children.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: But then she is an She holds herself out to
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: be an expert on marriages and children. So, following her divorce,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Jody Hildebrant returned to academia, earning a degree in English
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: from Brigham Young University before completing a master's degree in
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: psychology at the University of Utah, and this is in
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: two thousand and three. While training as a counselor, she
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: developed a professional focus on issues involving sexual behavior and addiction,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: as well as the intersection of sexuality, relationships and teachings
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: within the LDS Church. Now, what I thought was interesting
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: is that they so, let's talk about the mission companion.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: So they find her mission companion and they interview her,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: and she talks about how she was never comfortable around Well.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: A former mission companage probably had a number of them.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, why don't you explain that, because Shane has
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: been on a mission, and I think your perspective of
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: this is very interesting. So when you go on a mission.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Well I just met you're you go in twos, so
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: you're never alone, right, It's a safety thing. It's also
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: holding each other accountable, and it's also just you know,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: team building, right kind of thing. So she probably had
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: she served likely an eighteen month mission. She probably had
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: you know, five or six companions, and this is one
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: of them. So I was just saying it wasn't like
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: for the entire mission, It was likely just a few
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: months and it could be six months. I don't know,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: but I'm just I just wanted to clarify that. So
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: it's one person that they found out of a number
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of people that interacted.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: With right, they only managed her.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: This is her experience.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: With her, right, And I'm sure.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: A lot of them didn't have a good experience.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: With probably not, but they the one that they talk
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: to is in the in the Netflix dock.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I always think like someone that probably knew me and
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: then they might see us on TV and be like, oh, okay,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: that's cool. But then they see her on TV and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah I saw
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: this coming.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: So when you have a mission companion, you get more
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: than one. Is there always more? Are they that? So
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: you're not always stuck with the same person in case
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: there's like a but there's.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: No like sixty days. You have a mission president who
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: assigns everyone okay, and as they see fit and obviously
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: logistically and how they find if they find, you know,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: some people might need to be together. You know, he
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: has inspiration and puts them together in certain places and
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: things like that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: So where did you do your mission?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You don't know.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I do know, but I think it's interesting. I don't know,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I just think people might want to.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I went to Portugal for about a year, and then
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I went to the Cape Verdi in the Islands for
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: about a year.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Shane has some really interesting mission stories of when, especially
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: when you were in Cape verd the.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Third world country out in the middle of nowhere that
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: no one's ever heard of.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Right, So, like a lot of your stories about just
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: eating and being on the island and I don't know,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: like transportation and like your suitcase, and like all these
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: stories you told me. It's really it's really interesting.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I do struggles.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Mission stories, all right. So back to back to jod.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: So what her mission companion said was that she felt
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: as if it wasn't even necessary for her to be
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: there because Jody had such a forceful type of personality
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: that she talks about a specific incident where there was
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a family that kept pushing back their baptismal date, and
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: she said, you know, she was trying to persuade them,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: but didn't really get anyone.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So that's the problem. You're not supposed to persuade anyone, Okay,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: you introduce them to it, you teach them as they
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: seek to be taught, and then they choose if you
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: persuade people, then they don't have their own conviction and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: that's a problem.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I feel like that's where Jody was really.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Like, that's what I want and what I wanted to
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: point out.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Right into her skills. So the other emission companion talks
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: about how she like wasn't really all that effective, which
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: makes me think maybe they weren't ready right.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Right then exactly.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Then she sits, Then they sit down with Jody, and
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: then they end up you know, converting or whatever it is.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And she said it's because of her personality and how persuasive.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: There's no shame in resolving some concerns that people might
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: have addressing them. But it sounds like she probably was
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: do things my way, you know, like she was steamrolling
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: the situation and dictating the terms and probably pushy, right
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: persuasive as you called it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: So, Hildebrandt practice as a therapist with a focus on
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: what she described as quote porn addiction, and that concept, however,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: is not formally recognized as a diagnosable disorder in the
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which guides mental
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: health professionals in the United States, but within LDS culture.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Pornography is treated as a serious moral issue, and the
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: church encourages members who struggle with it to seek support
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: through church affiliated recovery programs. So therefore, Jody Hildebrandt was
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: put on a list of therapists that bishops could send
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: members to, leading many LDS couples to follow her extreme teachings.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: But she sounds like she had such an ego and
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: probably thought she could save everyone, that she was just
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: out there all the time recruiting people, you know, and
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: persuading clients to seek her counseling, and she was probably
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: just dictating all the terms as she did with these kids.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but what is confusing for me is that because
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: later on we'll talk about there, they interview several of
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: her past clients that were all members of the church,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: and they all have such grievances about her and her
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: methodology and how extreme she was. And it makes me
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: wonder why she was on this list for so long
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that people just like bishops kept referring her.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Well, probably it probably never came back to the bishop.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine the bishops would only do so much.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: It's voluntary service, so obviously they do the best they can.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: There's probably a list and maybe some you know, when
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: when people chose to go with whomever, there's probably no
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: feedback of saying this lady did X, Y and Z
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: was inappropriate or whatever she was doing to them. I
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: don't know, for them to take her off the list.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Critics argue that the religious framings surrounding pornography can be
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: considered extreme. John Dellan, a former therapist and the host
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: of the podcast Mormon Stories, has said the Church often
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: portrays pornography as a grave sin and, in some interpretations,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: a pathway to far more serious wrongdoing. Delan has also
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: stated that LDS teachings commonly frame men as sexual animals
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: and women as the gatekeepers. I don't know, I want
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on that, on pornography, well, not pornography,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: but just do I do know, just from our time
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: living in Utah and just my little experience with the
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: church and things like that, that sometimes I felt as
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: if the constant you know, no, pornography has the opposite effect.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Well maybe, but I mean, do you do you look
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: at it that way? With drugs? Are you gonna tell
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: your kids like do you want like if I say, hey, kids,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: don't do heroin or coke. Are you gonna say, hey,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: that's gonna have an opposite effect, Let's go easy on them.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: There are some things that should be excluded.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Entirely, and I understand that so, but I feel as
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: if from a very early start, it's a constant conversation
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: around don't look at pornography, don't look at pornography.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know who you're hanging out with, but I
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: didn't experience that one up there.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: No, But I it's a it's a thing that's always
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: like addressed and talked about. So I'm just saying, maybe.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Just like they also teach no cheating in your marriage
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and no drugs, no street drugs, hard drugs.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: But also, do you think that it can be too
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: extreme where it's like sometimes men who just have I'm
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: just asking you, you're a man. I'm saying, sometimes men
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: who just have like a healthy appetite for.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Sex, then it ends up healthy.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking about porn in general, because it also
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: has to do with like sex addiction. It's not just pornography.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: It's a gateway drug. Put it that way, So what.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: You're saying it leads on to what, like, what does
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: pornography leave onto more pornography? Starring in pornography, You're cheating,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you're saying, Oh, so you're saying it's a gateway drug
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: to infidelity.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and disconnecting with your spouse, not not valuing intimacy
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: with your spouse the same, right, Well, those are good points.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Jody started her own counseling
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: business called Connections, and that's Connections with an X by
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: the way. Jody first gain prominence in Utah after launching Connections,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: a relationship focused counseling business aim largely at married couples.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: According to the program's now defunct website, the service was
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: intended to help you flourish in your relationships. Former clients
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: later alleged that Hildebrandt selectively applied teachings of the LDS
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Church to support her interpretations of relationship problems and to
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: reinforce her authority in counseling sessions. You know, I thought
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that was interesting because when they interviewed a lot of
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: these past clients, they talked about how she ultimately ended
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: up destroying their marriage because I feel like she had
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: these tactics of first asserting this authority over them like
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: she and using church teachings to make herself the authority.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Then I felt like her next step was isolation, and
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that was like a thing that she did. And this
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: is why I don't understand how she continued to do
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: it over and over because to me, that's a huge
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: red flag where she would have the husband's move out
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: of the home and have no contact, no contact with
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: the kids, no contact with the wife, like they needed
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: to work with.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Her out anti male I came out of the house,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: out of the relationship, I think, so her husband. I mean, well, I.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Think maybe she was a lesbian, and I think but
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: it wasn't acceptable to be a lesbian in her family
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and religion, and so she suppressed that. But then I
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: think there was some anchor because of that, because there
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: because we do know that she and Ruby did have
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: an unconventional relationship. Remember they they spent hours in the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: bedroom together. She moved in with Ruby, then they ultimately
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: ended up going to her home in Ivans, which is
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Saint George area. And I think even Sherry, the oldest daughter,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: wrote in her book that she believed that there was
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: some you know, intimacy intimacy, some sexual relationship between the
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: two of them. But then that makes me think that
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: maybe she was she had some suppressed anger because she
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: wasn't really fully allowed to be who she was, and
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: then she took it out on her clients by using
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: this extremism with them.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Who knows she was a nut.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Washington County attorney Eric Clark addressed this dynamic and Netflix's
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: evil influencer, saying, Jody was so good at taking vulnerable
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: people who were coming to her because they were not
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: in a great place in their lives, and framing it
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: in a religious context that kind of fit enough with
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: other stuff they've been taught, and then pushing them to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: do things that I know a normal therapists wouldn't be
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: encouraging people to do. She found a niche. Niche, she
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: found a niche, and she marketed it. Jody was very
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: successful at getting people to give her money.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, isn't it's the end of the day. It's
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a power trip.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: She knows what's right. Yeah, we'll call it, yeah, exactly.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Jody's counseling license was suspended in twenty twelve for
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: unprofessional conduct. Hildebrandt faced professional discipline after Utah regulators determined
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: she had violated client confidentiality, resulting in an eighteen months
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: suspension of her license. The document aligns with claims made
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: by Adam Stead, who at the time was newly married,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: raising a young child, expecting another child, and enrolled at
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: BYU as an international relations and pre med student. He
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: said that church leaders encouraged him and his wife to
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: attend marriage counseling and referred them to Jody quote he says,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I was sent to Jody Hildebrandt, me and my wife.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: The bishop was saying it was for both of us together.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: He now alleges that during the course of counseling, Hildebrandt
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: shared private information with him without his consent, with LDS,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: church officials and with administrators at BYU. There's a lot
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: of trauma here, he said. So, yeah, I did read
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: this article where he claims, and I think she probably
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: did it to other people, not just him, But I
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: think she was, you know, getting people into this therapy
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: type of situation. She was getting personal information from them,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: then without their consent, She's going and telling the bishop
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and then telling you know, administrators at BYU. Like what
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: she was dealing with with this guy, and I am
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: sure she did it to other people as well, which
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: clearly is a breach of confidentiality. Which that's well as
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: we know when you go talk to a therapist, because
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: we talked about that with Menendez, remember he, like the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Menindaz brothers, admitted to killing their parents with their therapist.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: You talking your sleep, Yeah, that's how you get around it.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Oh is that how? Yeah?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Another therapist didn't like, Oh yeah, that's what the I
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: thought you were like the Menendez fan.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what you were referring to. Yeah, yeah,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: he said he because it was his mistress that went
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: and told the police. And then he said he didn't
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: really tell her that he was just talking in his
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: sleep and she heard him.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, that's an old moonlighting episode, is it? Yeah?
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: You do like sleeping with this guy and he was
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: a hitman, and every night he would basically say who
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: he was going to kill the next day or whatever.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So she finally reported it to Was.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: She a therapist? Was she a therapist?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: She was a prostitute.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: That's why I was in his sleep. So he fell
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: asleep after the deed.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: No, I think he was confessing like like he was
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: saying who he was going to kill, yeah, and who
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: he had killed, so he was then she I don't
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: know why she doesn't go to the police, right, but
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: she goes to you know, the detective agency, which is
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: uh okay.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: But where is the where is the confidentiality with the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: prostitute and the hit man.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, can be dangerous if you're a criminal
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: or a therapist.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, because I was like, I don't think there's any
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: level of confidentiality between processes.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: It's like moonlighting. I just wanted to bring that in,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: all right.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Other male clients have come forward and spoken out. Also,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: can we just talk about Jody. If we remember back
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: with Ruby Frankie, she was she was treating Ruby Frankie,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: but she was also treating the husband, and then she
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: was also treating the kids, which is total violation of
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: not confidentiality, but just ethics. It's not it's not ethical
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: to treat everyone you know in a household.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Well, even if she's just not ethical period, she doesn't
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: have any ethics. She's a nut. So if she was
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: treating one person that family, that's a problem.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Other male clients have come forward and spoken out.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: So five men told NBC News that Jodie Hildebrandt diagnosed
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: them with porn or sex addictions, even though they said
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: they did not experience any unusual issues. They describe being
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: placed in men's counseling groups that focused on porn, sex
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: and lust, which included weekly hour long meetings and daily
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: support calls to discuss therapy goals. See. I think this
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: was another way. Not only did she exhibit such control
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: over them, but this, I mean this house that she
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: when they searched the house, you know where they found
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: the two kids, it was a five million dollar home
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: in Saint George. So I think she had we were
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: talking about a power of persuasion, but she was also
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: very good at saying, okay, you need to be in
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: this group class which costs this much, but you also
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: have to talk to me daily at probably two hundred
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and fifty dollars an hour or something, and you know
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: we have to have you know, a session every day
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: for an hour. And you know also I probably need
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: to talk to your kids and your wife, and so
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: you know, these people are spending thousands and thousands of
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: dollars to fix themselves, when really this woman is just
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: on a power Trip one. Former participant Spencer Tibbitts described
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: his upbringing as extremely sheltered with limited access to technology.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: At sixteen, after getting in trouble for using a secret
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: phone to play video games, he was sent to Hildebrand
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: for two months. She moved him from her children's group
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: into the men's group so he could have more focused
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: discussions about his treatment. The men's group was intended for
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: those being treated for porn addiction. Tibbets, now twenty one, said,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I had a secret phone, but I didn't even know
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: what porn was. So he ends up getting moved into
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: this group of men.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I bet you this Hildebrand lady can't even be
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: content with anyone. Everyone's got major issues and she has
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: to get involved and everything's dramatic, you know, like if
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: a kid looked at a picture of a naked person,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. She probably took it to the extreme.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: He said, you have a porn addiction, right, right, That's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I guess that was my point in
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: the whole porn addiction was exactly what you pointed out,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: where it's like, is it an actual poornography addiction that
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: they need therapy for or was it just curiosity that
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: is normal? Like, how do you distinguish between the two?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Where does it become a level of.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: She probably thinks everyone has problems but her.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Jody Hildebrant's professional relationship with Ruby Frankie began back in
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen after Ruby and her husband, Kevin Frankie, sought
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: her help for marital and family issues. By then, the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Frankies were already well known through their YouTube channel eight Passengers.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: As the counseling continued, Ruby became increasingly involved in Connections,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: appearing regularly in its classes, talks, and online content. The
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: two women grew close and began collaborating across their platforms.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: On the Connection's website, under the Meat the Business Team section,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie was identified as a certified mental fitness trainer.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that is or how you get certified.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: It mental fitness trainer.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Certified mental fitness trainer. Is this is made up? Right?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah? But certified? So there's there some.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Organizing that means by a certified. But I feel like
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: you could just get on a computer and create your
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: certification and front it out and hang it up on
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the wall. Her role included producing material for Connections, social
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: media accounts and podcasts, which were promoted as being focused
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: on empowering parents and children to live in truth. Their
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: relationship deepened in twenty twenty two when Jody moved into
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: the Frankie home. Later that year, Kevin Frankie was forced
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: out of the residence and he and Ruby separated, which
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: was largely influenced by Jody's teachings. Now, when we did
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: the Ruby Frankie episode, we did talk about this because
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Kevin Frankie, even though he this is the dad, even
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: though he can't so so many people ask me, why
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: was he not legally charged with something because those kids
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: were being abused? And we talked about I believe that
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: there was no It wasn't a criminal.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Act the Federal with the mom's care.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm just saying the fact that this guy their father,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and he was completely negligent, and that he did willfully
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: remove himself from the home and the children and had
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: no interaction with them and was not checking on them
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: and was not being forceful at all to be a
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: part of their lives. There's no criminal act in that, correct.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: However, you might have opinions on it.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: I do think that he is a weak, weak man
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: who allowed Jody Hildebrandt to move into his house and
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: to basically take over his life. And I don't know
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: why any.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe he was convinced that he was no good, that
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: they would the kids would be better with them too,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe she really got him.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So Jody moves into the house and moves into the
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: daughter's bedroom. And then this is when Ruby and Jody
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: are spending all their time together, like locked in the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: bedroom all the time.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: So I know, so how much could he have done
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: with people like that?
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just saying this is the part
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that I don't understand. I get that maybe she was like, Okay,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you need to move out, and he's like, fine, all right,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I'll move So Ruby Frankie kicks him out of the house.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Then she tells him he can't have any contact with
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the children.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, yeah, I know, I know it's messed up.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, we just don't know the whole story.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: She's psycho. They're both psycho.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: No, I get it. But I'm saying, the dad bugs
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: me that he allowed it to happen, And I understand
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do criminally, he's not criminally liable
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: for anything. But his children were abused, and he did
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: not even know that they were located in Saint George.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: He knew nothing, and he was a good dad and
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: he had a good relationship with the kids. I'm saying
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: when he walked away and was like, Okay, fine, this
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: therapist moved into our house and thinks this is best.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: When do you push back and say, no, these are
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: my children and I'm not going to disassociate with them
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: and not know anything about them and not see them.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: And that's the part where I don't understand how she
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: has that much power to do that to people. I
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: don't get that part. He also wasn't allowed to go
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: upstairs because that was like JODI's dwelling was upstairs. And
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: he also wasn't allowed to go in the kitchen unless
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie allowed him to go into the kitchen. So
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: they're just like they made They've just berated this man
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: into just nothing. I guess, I guess that's how you
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: what do you do? Isn't that like in the military
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: when they beat you down, you know, until you're nothing,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: and then they build you back up until into what
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: they want you to be. But they forget. They didn't
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: build him up. They just beat the man down and
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: kicked him out. Jody and Ruby's personal and professional lives
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: became further intertwined when they launched Moms of Truth, which
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: was a rebranded channel that took over Ruby's large Instagram following.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Through the account, they promoted rigid parenting philosophies centered on
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: discipline and boundaries. In May of twenty twenty three, the
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: partnership took a more drastic turn when Hildebrand and Ruby
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: relocated to of Frankie's youngest children roughly three hundred miles
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: away to Hildebrand's residence in Ivan's, Utah. At that point,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Kevin Frankie had no contact with the children. So I
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: guess it gets to the point where these two youngest children,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: I think they're aged ten and twelve. It's a boy
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: and a girl. They end up in this house in
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Saint George. Yeah, and this is where these two young
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: kids are tortured. Now there's two middle children too, two girls.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: And I was always interested because even when we talked
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: about Ruby Frankie before, it was hard to understand where
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: the two middle kids were because it said something about
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: them being at a family friend's house.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: But then I think, oh, yeah, that's right, I remember that.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But now, you know, I've read things that said that
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: they weren't actually with a family friend, that they were
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: actually living in that Springville home. You remember when they
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: did the eight Passengers YouTube channel and they were making money,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: they built they bought that nice house in Springville, and
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I think the two middle kids that were still in school,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: their miners, were left there alone to take care of themselves.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: And I think that Ruby and Jody took the two
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: youngest kids because they could have influence over the young gid.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. As funny as those two girls, if they stayed back,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: they probably were better off, oh y, on their own,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: taking care of themselves without any real adult care, which
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: they should have had. Exactly know why did was she
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: attracted to this family like she had Well, apparently a
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: lot of clients didn't give a crap about anyone. She's
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: spilling the beans on all of them.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I think that she was attracted to Ruby. I think
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: she was in love with her, That's my thing. Why
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I mean, maybe her personality,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: she's attract she has all these YouTube followers. I think
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: she used that.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: The thought that was a platform like this lady is yeah, somebody.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Because when they start making their podcasts and they're doing
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: content together, they start doing it on Ruby's with all
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: her followers.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Did they have eight kids?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Should six? That's why it was called eight passengers?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but then who's the driver, the mom and the dad.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Then there should be six passengers, seven passengers and one driver.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I didn't really, I just there's eight
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: people total. There's a mom and a dad, Ruby, Frankie
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: and Kevin Frankie. And then they had six kids. They
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: have the two older kids, Chad and Sherry, that were adults.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: That are adults.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Now we agree with drivers, not a passenger, okay.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, well then it should be seven
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: passengers and a driver. That's right, yes, all right, I'm
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: glad that you figured that out. On August thirty of
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: a two thousand and three, Ruby's twelve year old son
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: escaped and sought help from a neighbor, which prompted police intervention.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Once the twelve year old was with paramedics, he told
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: investigators that his younger sister was still at Hildebrandt's home.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Police acted quickly, entering Hildebrandt's home without a warrant and
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: securing the ten year old girl that same.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Day body that too.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so police entered her home under the legal principle
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: of exigent circumstances. You know, it's interesting because the police
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: immediately go to her house because I think the I
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: think the boy when he's in the pair and when
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: he's you know, picked up by the paramedics and you know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: they're talking to him and he I think he says
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: he was at Jody Hildebrandt's home. I think even in
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the nine to one one called, the man that called
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: said it was Jody Hildebrant. So they immediately go to
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the house and she is on the phone. She says,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I'm on my phone with my attorney. You can't you
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: can't come in, and they're like move out the way.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: They basically like pull her out of the house, and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: she's like, you don't have a search warrant, Like where's
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: your search warrant? But as we know, there is a
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment right to privacy. However, there are always exceptions,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and because this boy was found in the.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: State, there's no time to get a warrant.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: There's no time to get a warrant, and it's called.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Out without irrele harm, right.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: And it's called exigent circumstances. And when the boy says
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: that his sister is still in the home and he
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: has not seen.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Me duct tape on him, no alnutrition, he abuse.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Right, and there is still a child in the home.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're going to bust down the walls. They're going
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in the house, save.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: The kid exactly. So Hildebrandt objects to them coming in
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: the house. But body camera body camera footage shows Hildebrant
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: asking police if they have a search warrant and stating, you,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: you can't just come into my house without a search warrant.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: She's a little more a little more fourth amend and
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: exceptions research first.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: He also can't kidnap children and secure them in a
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: room and not feed them and abuse them.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: So once the police enter and they do a sweep
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: of the house. Also, this is interesting, they can't really
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: collect evidence when they're doing that because it's under exigent circumstance.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Well, if they're there to find a child, then that
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: is their focus, to find a child. They're not going
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: to search drawers right in computers and hard drives. They're
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: going to search where a child can be right, So
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: it's limited, yes, So they happen to see something in
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: the meantime.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Right in the plain sight. So during a protective sweep
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: of the house, officers found the youngest of Ruby Frankie's
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: children in a closet with her head shaved. That is
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: sad too, I tell you, every time I see that,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: that breaks my heart too well.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Because there's only one reason you shave a kid's head,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: to torture them and control them and break them down.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Very skinny, and she's sitting in a closet on the
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: floor alone, and I do believe that. I think. I
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: think it took about four hours for them to coax
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: her out of the closet.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: I remember seeing a little bit because I didn't You're right,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't watch it, but I didn't watch it for
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: a reason. But I remember coming into the room and
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: you're watching it, and it looked like they were gently
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: trying to put her at ease.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think they ordered pizza for her. I
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: do believe she finally comes out so that she can
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: have some pizza. She's very thin. The severity of the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: children's condition, which was severe malnourishment and open wounds treated
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: with cayenne pepper and honey. I don't know how that's
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: considered a treatment. I guess they got wounds from being
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: tied up and then they would put this cayenne pepper,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: honey like salve or something on top of it. I
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: don't know if that was supposed to heal the wounds.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: But how putting cayenne pepper anything on top of open
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: wounds makes me think that was torture and not trying
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: to heal anything supported the police's use of the exigent
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: circumstances exception. Later on in the investigation, search warrants were
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: obtained to seize further evidence from the home and electronic devices.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: You know. Also, she has this, Jodie Hildebrant had this
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: safe room in her house, like a panic room because
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: his house is huge. Who probably to I don't know,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: to torture kids, I don't know. But anyway, the cops
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: go to her and say what the code, and she's like,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know the code. Nobody uses it.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: We haven't been in there for years. Nobody touches it,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: nobody goes in there and you see the cop he
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: goes up to you.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: That's a flag, right.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: He goes up to the safe room. You know, it's
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: got one of those whe you know, like you put
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: a code in, and then he turned the wheel like
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: like on right, Yeah, like one of those safe yes,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And he goes up to it and he goes one, two, three, four, five, six,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: and then he turns it and it clicks and opens,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and so I was anyway, what was inside, Well, they
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: did find evidence of that. I think that's where the
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: kids were being held because the boy had to skate before,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: so they were they.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Were evidence that they used it to keep kids in there.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they found rope and handcuffs, So I think
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: what they were doing with the sun because he had
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to escape before, and in order to keep him from
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: escaping again, they had like hog tied him. So they
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: his hands together, his ankles together, and then tied those
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: together like while he was on his stomach, and like
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: left him in.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: That hog tie. And then so did they take our
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: license away for another eighteen months?
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I mean she's in jail, So.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: What's your sentencing? Do we remember? Yeah?
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: She So each of them got four counts of child abuse,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and I realize it's four counts.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: We want, how long are they going to be in jail?
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Well, it's one to fifteen for like each count, with
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: like a max of thirty concurrent. Yeah, and they're both
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: in prison right now. But they it's basically I read
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: it's at the discretion of the parole board.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: So it's up to fifteen years.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's up to fifteen years. And they I think
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: they have they're eligible for parole in like four years
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: or something.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: So you know times like this where it's like the
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: sensing should be they go in that little safe room
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: and they get hog tied. Oh yeah, and then we
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: put Kaya and Pepper on their wings. Well you know
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: what else I think this is?
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: So here were some other things that you probably don't
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: know this because you and watch the documentary, but I
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: will tell you to hear some other things that they did.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: They would make him jump on the trampoline in the
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: hot sun.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to hear that.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: You don't want to hear it. No, Shane has a
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: real problem whenever we talked about kids. He doesn't like
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: kid cases. But let me just so at first, you know,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: even the I think it was the DA that they
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: interviewed that said Ruby's parenting it was very it fringed
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: upon being extreme, but not criminal because.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Remember she got kill. It's like spanking. Yeah, you can
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: spank a child. It's not abuse, but you can sure
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: get a close, get really close to it being considered
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: so violent and abuse.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: If you remember, Ruby Frankie and her YouTube channel basically
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: got canceled because remember she made that video talking about
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: how her son Chad, she made him sleep on it.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: She took his away and made him sleep on his bag.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: You said, on a ball or something something.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Slept on a bean bag. Oh yeah, for seven months
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: in like the basement or something.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: She bragged about it.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: She did, she bragged about it on it, and she
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: got backlash, so much backlash as should like, she got
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: canceled good. And then I think there's another video where
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: one of the daughters, the younger ones, she cut like
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the teddy bear, the head off of a Teddy bear
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: with scissors or something. So what they were saying, which
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: made sense to me, was that she was pretty extreme
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: in her parenting already before Jody Hildebrant came into the picture.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Thing before this is all before. So this is why
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: in the mix right the fire exactly.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is she already was on the
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: fringe of this not criminal but extreme parenting style that
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: was getting a lot of backlash, and she ended up,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: I believe, canceling her whole YouTube page because of so
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: much backlash.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she probably blamed the kids for that probably.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: But then when you introduce someone like Jody Hildebrant into
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: your life and you're already living, you know, like on
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: that line of extreme parenting anyway. I mean, if she
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: would have stayed with her husband, who seems to be
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: to me to be like a normal, kind rational guy,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: even though I think he's a woosp but besides that,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: she probably would have gone the other way, back to
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: like being a good parent and probably caring for her children.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: But instead she meets Jody Hildebrant, and this woman comes
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: into her life and takes her the exact opposite way,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: where now the extremism is now become abusive and becomes
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: more abusive and more abusive. I think it started out
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: with like, okay, you're going to carry boxes up and
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: down these stairs as punishment to get the devil out
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: of you. Everything has to do with the devil, do
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? That was like Jody Hildebrandt's
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I think that's how she got her crass was the
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: pornography with the men, but with the children, it was
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: the devil. They have the devil in them, so in
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: order for them mats No, we're going to talk about that.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Oh well just a little, but yeah, we talk about
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: that because I think someone like that just they can't
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: ever stop. It's just who they are, right, So she
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: uses the devil as her way of like these kids
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: need the devil, you know, punished out of them.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Which you can't pinpoint right because you just constantly say
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: it's the devil, it's the devil. More punishment, more punishment,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: and you just kind of throw that superlative out there.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: You know, right. So anyway she gets she gets Ruby
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Frankie on board that her these youngest children are you know,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: possessed by the devil, and that in order to get
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: the devil out of them, I guess you have to
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: sweat it out or work it out or punish it
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: out or something like that.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: You have to jump on a trampoline.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: So it was always like these extreme things of like
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: carrying boxes up and downstairs, that.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: She doesn't really know how to parent, Like there's no compassion,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: there's no love, there's no teaching by example or you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: teaching opportunities is just punishment, punishment, punishment.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also I don't know if you remember this,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: but Joe, but Ruby Frankie kept a journal of everything,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: like explicit detailing, because I think that's something that's in
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: the LDS faith. Isn't that encouraged to journal?
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, diaries right now? Well, but not in not this crap.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: You want a diary, I know, like your experiences you're learning,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, how much would you love? Wouldn't
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: you love if your grandma had kept a journal? Or
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: do not read that up and down? Yeah, that's exactly what.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: It is, right, and I agree with that type of journaling.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: But I guess Ruby Frankie was journaling like every day,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: like the devil and the children and what they did
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: to them and how they were like trying to get
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: the devil out of the kids and everything they made
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: them do and like the extreme. It's it's just all
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: written in a journal, which obviously the police confiscated when
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: they came back later with search warrants. So it's alleged
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: that when Ruby moved to Hildebrand's home, which is about
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: three hundred miles away from her Springville home, the two
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: middle teenage daughters were left to stay at the Springville
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: home without adult supervision for weeks at a time. All
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: four minor children were eventually placed into protective custody and
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: are now under the soul care of their father, Kevin Frankie.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: So I do love even though we don't know what
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: these kids are dealing with, trauma wise or therapy wise.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: But all four minor children are now with their father.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: And he also recently got married. That was in the news.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: So he met someone.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Else and he married a therapist.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: He didn't know. He did not marry a therapist, I
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: don't know. I forget her name. But he married another
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: woman and then sherried the oldest daughter, the one that's
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: an adult that wrote the book. She posted on her
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Instagram that she was happy for her dad and it
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: was like the first time she'd seen him happy in
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: a long time. So it seems that there is a
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: good ending.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: They're on the right path right.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: So in February of twenty twenty four, a judge sentence,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt to prison terms of four
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: to thirty years, the maximum for their convictions. Under Utah
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: law governing consecutive sentences. Neither woman will serve more than
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: thirty At sentencing, Frankie acknowledged her actions, apologizing to her
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: children for the abuse she committed. Hildebrandt, however, offered my
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: bad no apology, claiming that her actions were done out
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: of love. Now, I think Ruby Frankie because I've listened
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: to some of the calls that she had with her husband,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: because there were some jail time calls that were recorded
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: that I listened to.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: The father of her children, Yeah, he remember he former.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Husband, right, But it took a while for him to
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: divorce her. Even when they interview him at the police station,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: he still says he loves her, even when he finds
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: out about this abuse, and he's still I feel like
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: it takes a long time for it to click in
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: his head that this woman is not a good woman.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: But so Ruby, Actually, I think she was smarter because
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I think she realized that if she apologized and repented
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: and removed herself from Jody and didn't have contact with
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Jody that it was better for her for right because
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: she's gonna come up for paroles. So she's thinking, what
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: do I I gotta you know what I mean, I
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: need to apologize and say I was wrong and that
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm separating myself from this woman and she
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: has no control over me anymore if.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: She stays in jail.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll see. It'll be interesting to see how
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: long her sentence actually turns out. Hildebrant is currently serving
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: her sentence at the Utah State Correctional Facility in Dell
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: and the General Population, according to inmate records. There was
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: also an interview so Jody Hildebrandt has a niece that
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: has since come out with claims against her aunt. Jesse Hildebrant,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Jody Hildebrandt's niece, who uses they them pronouns, says that
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: they live with their aunt as a teenager and experience
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: what they described as brutal abuse. She would lock me
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: in this room and write out my sins on paper.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: She made me sleep outside in the snow. She duct
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: taped me. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of parenting. Like that's a lot of
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: like you have to really work hard at being like that.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's harder than just being a good parent, right,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: is what you're saying, right, Like, it takes more time
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: and energy to torture kids and to be this horrible
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: than if you just tried to be compassionate and speak
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: to them and communicate it be a good parent, right, Right,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: That's why I'm saying, there's something innate, Like, there's something.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: No, this is the path they choose.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Right. Reflecting on the arrests of their aunt and Ruby,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Frankie Jesse said they were not surprised. We knew that
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Jody does this. We knew fourteen almost fifteen years ago
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: that she's already done this to me and people saw
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: and people witnessed and did nothing. Just because you reframe
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: it as tough love or tough parenting, that's not love.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: That is abuse. And that's actually a really good statement.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: I Mean, you can call it tough love all day long,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: but I mean she's right or they're right. Right, you're
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: just rebranding it and trying to make it into something
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: else when really you're just abusing children. So director sky
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Borgman lends her thoughts on Jody Hildebrand. Now Sky Borgmann
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: is the same director who also did The Catfish Mom,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. If that young boy had
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: not escaped that day, Borgmann reflects, I think those kids
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be with us today. Now that's a profound statement.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you think if the police had not
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: intervened and he had not escaped, Like what was there?
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: What was their ultimate plan with these kids?
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Like when would it have surfaced right or right at all?
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Or when would they have stopped, or when would it
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: have been or not.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: I think it would have just carried on until it
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: somehow surface a death or medical care or a neighbor
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: saw something. I mean, that's the only way it had
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: a surface somehow, But it may not have been for
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: maybe more years.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I felt as if Jody was pushing the limits as
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: much as she could, just to see how much she
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: could control ruby, Like it came down to a control thing,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: like how far can I get this woman to just
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: go along with all these things? Like you know what
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I mean? First it's like, well, let's make them carry
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: boxes up and down the stairs.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Think of it this way. If she, if she truly
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: in her mind, thinks it's the devil, it's the devil.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: It's the devil. You have to carry these boxes, jump
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: on a trampoline to get the devil out, or however
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: she operated. That's never going to happen. Kids are always
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: going to make mistakes, but they're not going to learn
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: by jumping on the trampoline, right, I mean, they'll be
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: fearful of her and all that, but they're not going
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: to like magically be this kind one her full angelic person,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: because you're putting all this trauma on them. And I
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: would side with the kids on not being any better
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: because of the way they're treated. So she's going to
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: keep doubling down and to work harder because that's what
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: she believes is how it should be done. So she's
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: going to be cracking down on them, and it's bad.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: It's never going to get better.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: How far would she have pushed it if he would
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: not have escaped and they would have just been in
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: this huge house in Saint George with these two young children, Like,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: where where would it have ended if he didn't escape?
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, would Jody have just continued to push and
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: push and push until these kids were on the verge of.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: We probably said it, But why did Why did the
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: child at this point in time seek help. I think
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: he escaped, he was able to get out.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he went, he got he somehow got out through
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: a window.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: So he probably always or maybe for a long time,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: was looking for opportunities to seek help and get out.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: And then because he had, he had escaped one time prior.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: That's right, you said that Ruby had found him. They
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: had driven around until they found him walking down the
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: road and they picked him up and took him back.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: And I in her journal she had journaled, please God
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: protect me, protect Jody, protect us, because I think because
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: she knew that if this kid is found like they
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: were going to be in trouble. So she was literally
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: writing in her journal asking for protection while he was
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: out and they had not found him yet, which shows
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: me that she knew what she was doing was wrong
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: all along.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she knew, or at least optically she knew
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: it was like not good. Even if she believed in
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: what she was doing, she knew it wasn't going to
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: be accepted by society or authorities.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: So director sky Borgmann told Tutem I'd heard about this
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: story and it was really just Ruby, Frankie Ruby, Frankie Ruby, Frankie.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: But as she worked on the documentary, she realized that
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Jody Hildebrandt was central to the abuse. Just the simple
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: fact that this little boy escapes from Jody Hildebrant's home
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: where the abuse is happening, not from his mom's hown house.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: That to me was the simplest and the most diabolical
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: part of the story. Borgmann says. The film explorers how
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: harm can exist both in plain sight and in the spotlight.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: All of these things were happening in full view and
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: broadcast to the world. This kind of manipulative behavior and
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: coercive control can happen right in front of your eyes.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: It's essential to understand that if we want to prevent
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: this from happening again. She adds up making the documentary
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: gave her insight into Hildebrand's methods for controlling families like
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: the Frankies. It's like the one oh one of how
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: to get somebody to fall in line. She uses threats
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: and all these culty techniques and she isolates them. It
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: really is just the methodology that she incorporates that really
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: works to separate these people from anything that is positive
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: in their lives. And you know, I was thinking about
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: this because when you talk about abuse and relationships, especially
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: with men that are abusive towards women, a lot of
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: times their tactic is isolating them from friends and family.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: So that is a real tap and controlling people. And
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: that's what Jody really focuses on. And this is how
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: she controlled people was by the isolation, you know, was
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: taking these men and removing them from their families, because really,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, doesn't isn't the man
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: supposed to be the head of household, the protector. You know,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: if you want to talk about a hierarchy and a family,
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: you have the the man is the protector, and you
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: remove him from the family and you you separate the parents.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: You isolate him out by telling him he has some
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: sex addiction or poor an addiction, and that he needs
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: to go work on himself and he needs to be
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: away from his family. And it's horrible.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: You have Ruby who's like, yeah, yeah, don't treat me
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, you're right, Like she's it's in her
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: head now that he's the problem.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: He's the problem, right, And then she convinces you that
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: your children are possessed by the devil and that you
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: need to do all these torture type of things to
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: get the devil out of them, and then I think,
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's that power she
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: needs in order to feel alive or something. That's how she,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you know, feels valid in some way, which is sick
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: and demented, but that's what it is. Although Connections is
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: no longer operating, Hildebrand's influence on clients from the LDS
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: community remains significant. Sky Borgmann said some former clients were
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: eager for the film to share their experiences. The participants
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: that I spoke to who were seeing Jody for some
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: kind of therapy are very happy that the film is
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: coming out. They wanted to tell their story of how
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Jody manipulated them, how she used sort of this intersection
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: of trust and power and harm to really obscure their
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: own sense of self and family and religion, and how
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: it can happen to pretty much anybody. So wow, that's
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: it's interesting because to me, I felt I felt as
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: if when I was watching it that that could never
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: happen to me, and I feel like it could never
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: happen to you. But then maybe I'm maybe I'm naive,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe someone like that whis with such a power full influence,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: maybe she can't infiltrate and control. I just don't see that. Ever.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I think she takes people at their lowest and she
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: she I mean, look.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: At her clients. Who are her clients, People that are troubled, right,
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: people that are looking for guidance, people that are needing answers,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: and then she's there to give it to them. So
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: they're already vulnerable.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Exactly when they approach her.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: What about her cellmates?
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I read, Okay, this was interesting. So at
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: the end of the of the documentary, I don't know
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: if it was in the documentary or I read in
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: an article, but I did read that she is now
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: basically setting up groups within you know, the prison system and.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Like counseling people.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like got her groups and she's you know.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: So I was like, basically, she's still doing certifying other
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: people and mental health whatever it was. So she's still
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: doing that in prison. But I thought, at least.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: There's no men in prison for her, right, So yeah, so.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: They're already isolated. She doesn't have to do that. Part's
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: already done for her, right. So also at the end,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was a phone call maybe that I
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: heard where you know that because they record their conversations,
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: and I believe and I thought this was like very
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: telling of what type of person that these people have
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: been dealing with.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Was.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I believe she was comparing herself to Jesus Christ because
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: she was talking about how she is unjustly in prison,
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: like she's being persecuted, right, and she's being.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: So she's bringing good to the world trying to suppress her.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: So she's being unjustly persecuted and she's in prison and
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: she shouldn't be. And so she's like Jesus Christ who
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: was persecuted. And so basically she's like, I'm fine being
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: in prison because this is like my calling, you know
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: what I mean, because I am you know, this amazing being.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: It's what the devil does. They tried to break me down,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: and I'm.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Going to make it through this, and you know, I'm
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: going to help all these people and I'm just being
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: persecuted because I'm such a clean soul. So I was like, wow, that.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Was well, I hope that clean soul can stay in
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: prison for a very long time.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Well, let's hope. So we'll see. We'll definitely follow their parole.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Here maybe we'll still be around for her parole hearing
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: to do an update to us in thirty years.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Well, no, they're up.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: They're up for parole in four in four years.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a max of thirty total.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: So can we go to the parole hearing and try
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: to would you like to go to the pearole Yeah? Like,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: don't let her out, let her out? Yeah, I like,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: watch this documentary then tell me she shouldn't.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Be out exactly. All right. Thank you so much for
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: listening to legally Brunette. We really appreciate it. Again, if
• 57:37
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• 57:40
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• 57:42
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• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you,