Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Specialty Matcha in Bangkok with Jev of MTCH™

Transcript

Specialty Matcha in Bangkok with Jev of MTCH™ · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:05
Hello and welcome to the specialty match podcast.
0:07
My name is Ryan and this is my Coho Sanjun who also goes by
0:10
Sam. Hello, and we're the Co founders
0:13
of Senko match products. Hello, Ryan from the future
0:16
here. We also have a video version of
0:18
this episode and with corrected captions and with additional
0:21
visuals of things that we reference and talk about during
0:24
the episode. And so if you're interested in
0:26
that, I I put the link into the YouTube episode where you can
0:29
watch this versus listen to it if you're interested.
0:32
Thanks so much put you back to the episode.
0:34
Yeah. So we launched this podcast to
0:35
discuss our learning journey, matcha, share startup stories
0:38
and interview experts. And today we're sitting in this
0:42
beautiful space here in Bangkok with the founder Jeff for MTCH.
0:47
Hi everyone. I'm Jeff here.
0:49
Thank you for coming on the podcast again.
0:51
Sure, sure. In one year.
0:53
Yeah, nice to see you guys. As always, thanks for the
0:56
delicious sample. Thank you and thank you for
0:58
this. Actually, I don't know what are
0:59
we drinking? Yeah, think about the region,
1:01
think about how long is shedding could be I.
1:04
Would guess longer shading. Longer shading has a lot of
1:07
creaminess. Premium.
1:09
A lot of dairy nuts. And when you mentioned about the
1:12
longer shading here, So what is long long?
1:15
What do you consider to be long? Well, more than 20 days,
1:19
definitely. Yeah, more than 20 days.
1:20
So this one is about 28 to 73 days.
1:24
O30 ish days. Wow, that's impressive.
1:27
So it's chose a lot something like very sweet and very smooth.
1:31
Even I do this like 5 minutes ago.
1:34
It still have lots of like enjoyment in your.
1:38
Very velocity the effects. Yeah, great after taste.
1:42
Really long, prolonged, sweet after taste.
1:44
It is a salmidori. It's a salmidori.
1:46
Salmidori. No, no, that's Salmidori.
1:48
Oh salmidori. Oh wow.
1:50
It has a lot of richness for salmidori that I haven't always
1:53
tasted. Typically I find salmidori more
1:55
refreshing and simple. This one's very complex.
1:58
And this same time is from 2024. OK, 24.
2:02
Yeah. And yeah, expecting the 2025
2:06
will be arrive next month. So I expect even better higher
2:11
quality because as a producer said, 2025 is a tough year for
2:15
them with the better with the workflow, but it's been more as
2:21
a higher quality of the match of the tenure cooler, cooler in the
2:27
burning period and the lower yield.
2:32
And it's had some time to rest too and they didn't release it
2:35
so early, so like that changes the taste quite a bit from what
2:38
I understand. Yeah, Yeah, at least six months.
2:41
I think the after we finish the since half process, we we have
2:46
to wait ideally 6 months to make sure that all the chemical
2:50
component be like stimulated during the processing, have time
2:54
to rest and not shopping, OK. Interesting, Is this from Kyoto
2:59
prefecture? Yeah, sure.
3:01
OK, tastes like it. Yeah.
3:02
And this is is. This from Goka show.
3:04
I don't know. Maybe yeah, maybe.
3:06
Maybe not. Yeah.
3:07
But secret? Yeah.
3:09
Maybe. Yes, Maybe no.
3:11
But it's delicious. It's delicious, whatever it.
3:15
Is very Speaking of the the Ooty you mentioned last time
3:20
yesterday that now we are going to talk about the stuff region
3:24
of Kyoto Perpetual right you you have seen some of the team and
3:30
then they they named the sub district of Teodoro like JoJo
3:34
Vasuka Edi would you talk about that that kind of thing yeah in
3:39
the rear wheel is not the matcha now it's very funny because like
3:45
even now all five years ago people come to me and asked that
3:50
OK do you have Ooty I mean like they it does it that doesn't
3:54
mean the country from Ooty they think that Ooty is the name of
3:59
the country or Ooty is the. Name.
4:01
Interesting. Yeah, like same thought as
4:04
Yabuchita, but but now I think the consumer or the market
4:11
develop a lot. So now we discuss about the sub
4:13
region, we discuss about the microtel.
4:17
Fun. So for now, like what's the
4:19
percentage of day-to-day consumers that you run into that
4:22
ask you like very in depth, you know, knowledgeable questions
4:26
versus like people, you know, asking you, you know, what is
4:30
this much after the first time? Interesting, I didn't check the
4:33
data, but I just just anecdotally, yeah, that's just
4:37
answered by my I think people have more idea when they come to
4:40
the store. OK, in in our early, the
4:43
customer come to the store and just ask for a cup of matcha
4:47
latte. That's it.
4:49
But now they ask more. They have the framework profile
4:52
preference. OK, not to not to.
4:56
They don't like the umami or sometimes they consider the
4:59
color like the aroma, like that frame.
5:01
That frame is it's called Simi, but actually it's not.
5:04
But at least they have some preference, their mind, or they
5:08
know the famous name, like they know Yami.
5:11
They know Yami. Yeah, they can be signed by
5:13
seeing the name Yami. And then, OK, let's go with the
5:15
Yami. And they can expect something
5:18
from the name. I think this is a big change
5:20
because five years ago, when we opened the shop, when we put the
5:23
name Yami in the list, no one knows and no one even care.
5:27
So it's changed a lot. Wow.
5:29
And they happened fast because couple of years you end up with
5:33
a very experienced group of consumers asking you very in
5:37
depth questions. Yeah, some sometime when we
5:40
mentioned about, but most of the time we blame the social media
5:45
that that make the market so bad, right.
5:48
The market gets like get accelerated, get get crazy with
5:52
a match up boom. But at at the same time it
5:54
edited people a lot. Otherwise, if you don't have
5:57
this kind of like this of boom or this kind of friends, it will
6:01
be it will stay at it is much is sort of printing maybe properly.
6:06
Yeah, then most people think in general, most of them, they,
6:10
they know a lot. Do you think this is like the
6:12
new norm for, you know, retailers so much of brand
6:16
people in Thailand like you have to offer all this information?
6:19
I think so. OK.
6:20
You, you cannot do I, I, I think they cannot do the much have
6:24
retail without knowing this information anymore.
6:27
OK, OK. Because when you step into the
6:29
professional games, the customer know a lot and and they will ask
6:33
they even make a much have at home with their own like own
6:35
recipe. So if you want to do do business
6:39
with the much have you have to know know this one and try to
6:42
keep up with friend I guess. What does it mean to build trust
6:47
with consumers now versus when you first started five years
6:51
ago? Like I, I'm sure transparency is
6:54
a huge part of that, but like when you look at the competitive
6:57
landscape of all of these offerings and the consumers are
7:01
deciding who do I want to spend money with?
7:03
Like a lot of that is building up a relationship and building
7:05
trust with these different brands.
7:08
So how do you view that and the way the the foundations of trust
7:12
get built between the brand owners who are educating people
7:16
and providing the product and then the the buyers?
7:19
I think we can. I can answer in free path.
7:21
So the first part is the transparency and the
7:24
transparency we can build it. But I have the answer but I try
7:29
to think about it. But for example, we should not
7:31
when we know that what customer want and what is the keyword
7:35
that take out the customer that they will come to buy the
7:37
things, we should really make sure that the thing has that
7:42
type of the thing that we are selling for example.
7:46
Yeah, like like in Thailand for example, the roasty matcha
7:50
flavour aroma is very popular and it's sellable, like the
7:55
matcha from Pochino Asia. Or yeah, I heard that super
7:57
popular here. Yeah, it's, it's really, really
8:00
popular. And and then we will have the
8:01
terms Natty flavour Horizon just mentioned.
8:04
The natty flavour is a very new thing for them.
8:06
Real interesting. Years ago, but for example, when
8:09
when we would like to sell the word, not the flavor and we put
8:13
this type like description to 80 much up, we have to make sure
8:17
that this one has a really phone out.
8:19
Yeah. So otherwise you're not this
8:21
marketing? Otherwise the people, the
8:23
customer would get really disappointed.
8:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I think this is like the
8:28
fundamental of doing things we have to make sure and we have to
8:32
like really, really confident with the product.
8:35
This is how we make class. If if you cannot find a much
8:41
habit of rosy or an ugly favor, we just don't say it and we try
8:45
to tell them what to expect. So this is what we've been doing
8:49
for like 5-6 years. Would you say that the
8:52
preference for these roasty, toasty profiles like Yami are
8:55
starting to overtake the preference for umami?
8:58
Because I think no. OK, I don't think so.
9:01
I think you guys drink coffee, right?
9:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back, back in the day.
9:05
When when when you start drinking coffee.
9:07
What do you think? I was searching mostly for
9:09
acidic coffees. Higher, more fruity, more
9:12
acidic. Since you were young.
9:15
Since I was young, maybe something that's not bitter.
9:17
Yeah, something that not bitter drinking what?
9:20
Gnocchi. Sugary.
9:22
I love it. Yeah, same here.
9:25
But we, we have something in common that not too bitter,
9:28
something not too bitter. I, I start drinking coffee with
9:30
like meal Puccino with the caramel.
9:34
It's very, very sweet, very Milky and clean.
9:36
And then when we drink, drink more, we can, we can catch the
9:40
taste of the real coffee and we get too used to with the taste
9:44
of it. And then we when we get used to
9:47
of the taste of the real coffee, we don't need any sugar or milk
9:50
or cream to help anymore. So we, we become drink less
9:53
sweet and less milk. And then at the end of the day,
9:56
we end up with, we drink black coffee and then maybe sometimes
10:00
only drink black coffee. We can, we can develop our
10:04
personal preference to for something acidic like you
10:06
mentioned. I think this would happen the
10:09
same with the matcha because most of the people when they
10:12
when they step into the the matcha will most of them, they
10:16
start with matcha ice pretty much latte with some little
10:19
sugar and they have no idea what is the human meanness is even
10:25
even how have you tried to extend this is where women
10:28
didn't get it and you can't help it.
10:30
You cannot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:31
You're just not ready for it. You haven't acquired the
10:33
preference. Yeah, let them take time, let
10:35
them try to get used to with a good quality of the matcha and
10:38
they'll be more. Interesting.
10:41
So one of the things that MTCH does that I think is so unusual
10:45
compared to any other cafe I've ever been to, it's just a level
10:48
of extraction theory that goes on.
10:50
Even in the past two days, you've mentioned so many
10:53
different brew methods. You asked me yesterday, do you
10:56
want this to be very like expressive or more mellow?
10:59
And you were going to completely control that by the brewing.
11:02
You talk about some of the brewing parameters, brewing
11:05
strategy extraction theory that you use here.
11:09
Did you start to see a little bit of it online?
11:11
But it's still very much, this is the best way to whisk match
11:14
up versus this method provides these flavors with this other
11:18
method does something else. And so like what does whisking
11:21
do? What does whisking for 10
11:23
seconds versus 30 seconds do, or different temperatures of water,
11:26
etcetera. You know, it's a complex
11:28
question. I had a slight trade secret I.
11:31
Don't know. It's OK.
11:33
I talk about this all the time, but in my own language,
11:35
disclaimer that I had to disclaim that I'm not the first
11:38
one who invent all the moving methods.
11:40
So we have to honor Urusenke almost a cente and and a lot
11:46
more. And I have to disclaim that
11:50
there is no perfect recipe for for our matcha, even how bad the
11:54
matcha is, I think there is no perfect recipe for them.
11:57
But what we try to do is we try to, we try to apply or the
12:02
method that we know to Amata and we will see what is the best for
12:05
it. And I think when we go back to
12:08
do the TCM ceremony and we we see the difference style of
12:13
brewing in each school, there is a framework implication in that.
12:17
No one ever talks about that. That's interesting.
12:20
The Moto Sanka, there's not very much whiskey.
12:23
Yeah, I think all the information is already already
12:26
there. But we have when it come to the
12:30
mantra, we have a kind of like beauty standard of how to make
12:33
to make a month properly by making a nice beautiful for me
12:38
on the top, which is like maybe up there thinking.
12:41
Interesting. Yeah, maybe that's what I think.
12:44
The thing is really nice, but it is not the only way, right.
12:48
And when we when we get rid of this type of beauty standard,
12:52
the truth is the test is all here and the foam on the top is
12:57
maybe it's perfect like 1020% of the whole cup of the tea.
13:02
So that's why we need to focus on the rest at the seven, 7080%
13:07
down there. And when we don't, when we don't
13:11
have the beauty standard, the brewing that the tea is a method
13:15
of try to blend, not to dissolve, try to blend the seed
13:20
with the lipid properly, as nice as we can get.
13:23
And while we blend it, the extraction is occur during the
13:28
mixing. We can say there are three stage
13:30
of the extraction. So the most soluble part and the
13:34
middle soluble part and the least soluble part which result
13:38
in the flavor. When you think about it all you
13:41
got flavor. You think about it clean, fresh,
13:45
sweet, some kind of some floral aroma come on the first phase.
13:49
And when you talk about the most aroma or the slightly lost
13:54
naughty flavor, multi vanilla is is coming the second part OK and
14:01
the body, the upper test or the heavy roasty aroma at the at the
14:06
end. So.
14:07
The role of the Brewer when we think about the aspect, the
14:11
flavor is to fry the balance of this or try to present one the
14:16
matcha show me. So when you encounter a new
14:19
matcha that you have never tried before, would you like try all
14:23
sets of combinations of extraction or do you have some
14:27
intuitive, you know, sense of like, OK, this matcha is from
14:30
yame. Like I will probably use lower
14:33
temperature water or higher temperature water depending on
14:36
your experience. Most of the time I try all the
14:38
set all the possibility which is like 10:15 set up.
14:46
It must take forever to taste through everything.
14:48
When some producers send me a sample of the Mata like 10 gram
14:51
I said OK you send 10 gram is this not enough I need to buy 50
14:57
to do the same thing and if you like it I need 100 gram of
15:01
sample to make up basically. So it makes sense.
15:04
Because we need to really make sure that we want to get to know
15:09
a Mata really well. And really when we know how to
15:14
extract this, what we like, what is our preference to them, and
15:18
then we will throw it into our recipe.
15:21
So it's a lot of work. Wow, sounds like it.
15:25
Something that you did yesterday is like we did a koi cha and
15:28
then we took the koi cha pasted usicha and is the first time
15:32
this has ever happened to me is that was the incredible Uji
15:36
Hikari koi cha that you have here right now.
15:39
And it tasted so light and elegant and just like
15:42
beautifully, like not this crazy intense, but it was like soft as
15:47
koi cha. And then you asked me how do you
15:50
want it to be a Zeus cha from a flavor perspective?
15:52
And I said very expressive and I was expecting you to whisk it
15:56
like crazy and generate lots of foam, get as much air
15:59
incorporated as possible, and you barely whisk it.
16:03
You very lightly, very emoto sange style, very little foam.
16:08
And I tasted it. It's the first time I've ever
16:10
tasted usucha that was more intense than the koicha.
16:15
I've never had that experience and I asked you why you gave
16:19
such an interesting answer. I would love if you could share
16:22
some of that extraction theory because it just blew my mind.
16:25
It changed my perspective. So for the first part, I think
16:30
the concentration of the framework come from a good
16:33
ratio. Most of most of the the Salem
16:38
Monique practice when they saw the the leftover of the foil
16:42
side in the bowl, they even know what amount they should put on
16:45
the water, right? Yes, yeah.
16:47
And I just try to do the same, but I just do it with my
16:52
calculator to make sure that I don't overpower it.
16:55
Down to the milli milliliter. It's crazy.
16:59
We have to go to the milli. Milliliter.
17:02
Level because the cheese is a small amount and the ratio that
17:08
we make the quarter is just 7.5 and then when when we want to
17:12
make it into like the Utah is 1 to 30 right.
17:15
So we have to really make sure that we are not miscalculated
17:18
otherwise then it will be like waste that.
17:22
So the ratio is very important. So check the leftover when when
17:26
when I make a finish part of the koi shot, I weighted on a scale
17:31
to see to see how the the total the weight of the ball is.
17:34
And then when he finished the koi shot, I weighted again and I
17:37
see what is this? The amount that remove from the
17:41
bowl. That's insane pre preparation.
17:44
Like the fact that that standard here is crazy.
17:47
Like. Yeah, and I didn't.
17:48
Anticipating. That I didn't, I just add the
17:50
amount. So that is the first part that
17:53
we should not overlook. And the second part is the style
17:57
of the of the air that we would like to input to, to to the
18:01
Windstream. If I ask you and you think, OK,
18:04
you get fired, you get tired with the Kocha already, you need
18:08
some some safe home to go back. I would add more air and give
18:13
you a fluffy feel. OK, yeah.
18:15
To make sure that you go home safely.
18:18
OK as it extracts more caffeine or more?
18:20
No, no, no, no, no. It's just about the air.
18:23
Just about the air. Yeah, that's about the air to
18:25
input to incorporate with the with the tea.
18:29
But if since you ask for something expensive so that's
18:32
that's mean you need for a second.
18:34
The air actually dilutes the intensity that way you are
18:38
trying. To change your mouth feel.
18:40
Change the mouth. Yeah, you change the mouth feel
18:42
you. You think about when you bring
18:45
the cold pressed juice, there is like very less air in there,
18:50
right. That's a concentrate food in the
18:52
liquid. You think the the framework is
18:55
very sharp, very expressive to your face.
18:58
But if you put that one into a shaker and you shake it really,
19:02
really hard and you drink it, it will give you like a soft frothy
19:06
things. So it's about the air on the top
19:10
or the microphone that you mentioned that change the
19:14
feeling and change your mentality perspective when you
19:17
bring it. So less air does make it taste
19:20
more concentrate. It's just.
19:22
It doesn't make it take less concentrate, but you will feel
19:26
it a little bit. Feel it better?
19:29
Really. Blurry.
19:30
So there's a more definition more than less foam.
19:34
Yeah. Yeah.
19:34
OK. Interesting.
19:37
And then the last part is an expression, yeah.
19:40
So, yeah, yes. Yeah, which is the crazy part
19:42
that just, it blew my mind. So when you ask something
19:45
expressive but the tea is already blue and the poet has
19:49
this. This is really hard to explain,
19:51
but in a single stroke there are more 10 channels on it.
19:55
There's more 10 channel. Yeah, it's about the grip of the
19:58
week. OK, yeah, grip harder, but do it
20:01
slower. OK.
20:02
Yeah. Interesting.
20:03
Yeah, like more control, more tension, more OK.
20:07
Yeah. And then the T will be extract.
20:13
So the first extraction is the core chart, right And then it
20:16
become the user side, it is a second extraction.
20:19
So we have to really make sure that we are not extract too much
20:23
and bring out the bitterness, the timing or shield the sweet
20:28
and do my flavor. So we need to really progress
20:32
and control the extraction. The CEO has already been
20:35
extracted the first time when it was in.
20:37
It's a second brew. It's a second brew based.
20:40
Interesting. You know, like literally it's
20:42
like fractional brewing. Like in Kung Fu Cha you do a
20:45
Taiwanese Wolong, right? First and second brew tastes
20:48
totally different. And you don't want the like in
20:51
Kung Fu, you don't want the water to hit the tea too harshly
20:55
so that you kind of extracting all the burned or chart like
20:58
charcoal roasted smokiness from the tea.
21:01
Yeah, yeah. That's.
21:02
How is the agitation? The agitation helps with the
21:05
extraction too. Yeah.
21:07
Interesting. We can learn a lot from making a
21:10
cup of POISA, so that's why it takes like 8 years for the three
21:14
practitioner. To true, Yeah.
21:17
To set. Because beginners don't do
21:19
koicha. Yeah.
21:20
Yeah, It's fascinating. Yeah.
21:22
I'm still learning a lot, so there are like a great people
21:26
out there that I really want to learn from them.
21:29
When you are developing all these new methodologies, where
21:33
do you usually take inspiration from?
21:35
You talking about like these mentors, great people?
21:39
Like are they like individuals or do you like read from, you
21:43
know, literatures? Like how do you like take
21:47
inspirations? Talking doesn't help.
21:49
Sometimes it doesn't help. Yeah, it doesn't help.
21:51
Like we can talk and we can have some idea, but I think sometimes
21:55
when we just here the story of how delicious it is, it doesn't
22:00
make sense until you taste it. Until you taste.
22:03
It I did a lot of practice. Yeah, I have to tell you that I
22:06
did a lot of practice. And this OT Hickory is the first
22:10
time that we serve the Koisa in the store for my whole career.
22:15
Oh wow. We really.
22:16
Yeah. So this is the first time that
22:18
we we put the Koisa on the menu. Yeah, since we opened.
22:23
We opened in 2019. Wow, that's.
22:26
Crazy there will never be a poison on the manual or any
22:29
offering just for fun to give to some friends.
22:32
OK. But he never put it in the
22:35
manual. So I practiced really really
22:38
hard. Finally.
22:39
Comfortable enough? Not enough.
22:41
Still not. Yeah, yeah, I still learning.
22:43
Yeah, I still do a lot of mistakes.
22:45
We're still part of the experiment.
22:47
Yeah, I get that. Then my I didn't charge so high
22:50
for you see the planet and you, you have a pressure on the
22:54
pilot. That's why you charge at this
22:56
price. Yeah, I didn't charge so high.
22:58
Yeah. Oh, the price was insane.
23:00
I can't believe that. I mean, if there's something
23:02
that that is a statement that embodies mantra for everyone,
23:07
it's the accessibility of the price point of this.
23:09
Yeah, we of that T we. Charge 20 USD for a part of
23:14
cheaper award-winning competition Freight for sure.
23:17
Yeah. I mean, that's crazy.
23:19
I mean 90 usually sells for in the states maybe $250 for 20
23:25
grams. And here it's you have an expert
23:27
preparing it across, you know, all the MTCH locations it's
23:31
prepared for you. That's crazy.
23:33
The the price tag could be a problem.
23:35
You know when when for example, that one is 600 baht in Thai,
23:39
right? So which is like 20 USD.
23:41
Some people would sell it in like 60 USD.
23:45
But if you put that price tag, I think it had less chance.
23:49
But this tea to to be to be selected by the customer.
23:56
If we have less chance to do it, we have less chance to learn the
23:59
feedback. Oh, that's interesting.
24:01
Yeah. So it's to encourage more people
24:03
to get it, just to create that feedback loop.
24:06
Yeah, how consumers like it, how they find it.
24:09
Yeah, you see on the the back of of the label of the tea, right,
24:13
We put the name of the blue word.
24:15
We just want to make sure that the Brewer of the cup of the tea
24:19
have have to less quantity to what the customer think they
24:24
need to come and check their feedback.
24:26
Is everything OK or any room to improve?
24:30
Interesting. What are the feedback so far for
24:32
this tea? Yeah, most of them are very
24:34
happy. Some of them they expect the tea
24:38
will be like wait, extremely funky, like French oy punch in
24:43
to good affairs. But this tea is a little bit
24:46
some something very elegant, very real round and complex.
24:49
So I think is this a time that the tea should be in the to win
24:53
the competition? I would love to try.
24:55
Sure, sure, sure. We can have it later, yes.
25:00
It's the price. It was crazy and the quality and
25:04
the whole experience. Yeah, since since the day one.
25:07
Then we do that. We have clear the concept in
25:10
here. I think all the people should
25:12
have a good easy access to the master.
25:15
Yeah, I think that's so important that people have good
25:18
reference samples. They know what they're buying is
25:20
from the place that they that says on the menu from the
25:23
cultivar that it's supposed to be and that then they can taste
25:26
that. And it's sort of an accessible
25:27
price point because how else do you learn as a consumer that's
25:31
so powerful? And I think this is really the
25:33
true foundation in the fertile soil for a specialty movement.
25:37
Otherwise this will really just turn into a luxury niche like
25:41
only the very few people can. Enjoy when we go to Kyoto or
25:44
when we go to Ooty like some famous shop.
25:47
Maybe we need to be in a line for half or one hour to get in,
25:51
right? Yeah.
25:52
And most of the time when people be there, they try to, they wait
25:57
for a long time and they expect a lot.
25:59
So that's why sometime they try to order OHR.
26:02
OK, OK. So which is probably ¥200, I
26:07
guess OK ¥2000 two. Thousand yeah, 2000, Sorry,
26:10
yeah. ¥2000 I guess and people can enjoy it or maybe not, but I
26:18
think when people spent long time to wait and spend a high
26:24
amount of the money, there should be some kind of like
26:27
explanation. Yes, yeah, at least they will.
26:31
They should have some idea what they are drinking and what is
26:35
how does it in part with the other range of the product.
26:38
Yeah, yeah. So versus just saying it's Hatsu
26:41
Mukashi or something or you don't learn anything about.
26:44
It so they will have more idea to explore more, yeah.
26:48
It's interesting that that hasn't caught on in Japan more
26:51
because in Japan, all the traditionally blended products,
26:54
you don't learn anything about the product, but you have to be
26:56
told this is good. But when you read this card for
26:59
the Uji Hakari, the award-winning one, you are
27:02
literally told why it's good. In objective terms, the exact
27:06
number of days of the shaded, the fact that it was hand
27:08
sorted, fact it was hand picked like you and the fact that it
27:11
came comes from like a very specific sub region.
27:14
You can learn with that consumption.
27:16
So I think this is a like cultural difference between in
27:20
Japan and outside of Japan. But in the past, I think there
27:23
is no problem with this because in the in Japan they have a
27:28
trust system. The thing with a higher price
27:30
tag is the thing that cost more base by higher quality and the
27:36
seller have their like their owner and the customer have
27:41
their trust. So that's why when they paid for
27:43
something like ¥4000 for 20 grams of the matter, that should
27:49
be no problem. But for the people outside, for
27:53
the like us Thai people, we cannot speak Japanese.
27:56
How do we know? Yeah.
27:58
So that's why we need style information and I think most of
28:02
the people now in the industry doing a very good job.
28:05
Yeah. How do you see the whole
28:07
landscape in Thailand? So like, like, if you look at
28:10
the competitive landscape, even since I first was focusing on
28:14
matcha here three years ago, it's changed like crazy.
28:17
I just was at one of the malls here in Bangkok.
28:20
There were maybe 15 vendors and everyone was selling single
28:24
cultivars, single origin. They're being very specific, not
28:27
just saying uji matcha, but like Jo Yo, for example, I'd had a
28:31
conversation with someone, he had a tasting reference sample
28:34
of six months, aged 10, child 1 1/2 year, 2 1/2 year, all fresh
28:38
milk. And he was telling me about the
28:40
taste differences. Like I feel like this
28:42
conversation 1, you wouldn't have it anywhere else in the
28:44
world and two, you wouldn't have it maybe three years ago here in
28:49
Thailand. So like, how is it changed from
28:51
like a small business landscape? Because it seems like so many
28:55
people are entering the game and the standards are changing.
28:58
And it feels like the standards for specialty matcha are being
29:01
set in Bangkok. And I really felt that yesterday
29:04
because it feels like everyone has the same playbook.
29:06
So then how, how does how do people, how does everyone
29:09
differentiate from themselves? Or is this market just so large
29:12
it can support everybody And. I believe the market is so
29:17
large. Yeah, we have let me think I can
29:20
answer in like in many part. But first of all, I think we
29:23
have the thanks to the customer in in Thailand when, when Thai
29:27
people saw any trend, they respond to the trend very hard.
29:33
Passionately. Aggressively.
29:34
Yeah, aggressively, passionately.
29:36
And that's drive the vendor or the seller or the retailer to to
29:41
do more. Otherwise they cannot
29:42
differentiate themselves. So they need to study more, they
29:45
need to go back, I think in one day, in a single day in Wuji,
29:50
them like many Thai vendor or Thai customer, they come to Wuji
29:53
and they try to learn more and more.
29:55
And when they know something interesting, they try to apply
29:58
by their business or they try to apply with their communication.
30:03
It's true. We.
30:03
Went into so many Thai people in Wuji.
30:06
Yes, we did a. Little crazy.
30:08
And I think this is how we became hubs of the match up.
30:13
I think Z Hub, yeah. Yeah, we are like a match up
30:18
capital I guess. Yeah, I can see it clearly when
30:21
when I'm here in the store and every day we we experience the
30:27
customer from overseas come to our shops, ask about what we are
30:31
doing here, why we why we see like this match up to this menu
30:36
and why it why it's not that much up or some people ask for
30:42
to do the franchise. OK, I'm sure.
30:44
So I think in Bangkok it's got to be something interesting.
30:48
Honestly the chances of you learning more about matcha in
30:51
Bangkok is higher than you can do in Japan I feel like
30:54
nowadays. Unless you're going directly to
30:57
producer. Farm or unless you can speak
30:59
Japanese. Yeah.
31:00
And sometimes when we when we think about one of the producer
31:05
told me that in the past they must have growers should not be
31:08
invisible. That's an interesting mindset.
31:11
They just should be invisible because narrow is just grow the
31:14
tea and sell the tea to the someone who got combination.
31:18
So they just try to be invisible and try to do their best.
31:22
So they cannot get blamed if they send the shitty quality
31:25
mark, shitty quality tension to the to the tea shop be blamed.
31:32
Yeah, so they cannot be blamed. Yeah, so they just try to do
31:35
quietly and get some money. So this is the mentality in the
31:39
past. So that's why when we when we
31:43
buy a matcha, we buy from a tea shop, right?
31:45
We didn't buy from from the farmers.
31:48
So what we know there, what we can learn from there is how to
31:51
blend the matcha. And most of the time we can just
31:55
obtain the knowledge that this matcha is for this matcha is for
31:59
the OR this matcha is called for a certain style of the school,
32:02
but that's it. And you will never, you will
32:05
never understand the flavor preference if you have no chance
32:08
to try that kind of the matcha. Or even harder, if you and lose
32:17
some kids tea practitioner and you never expand any brewing
32:23
style, you have no idea. So it has less chance to
32:27
exchange the kind of the tea and the tea and the producer doesn't
32:32
stick. And you never know who they are,
32:35
who they are calling this beautiful and delicious tea
32:39
because they don't think, they try to be invisible.
32:41
So this is the thing that happened in Japan.
32:44
I guess when we are outside of Japan, we have not something to
32:47
hold back. So we are keen to learn.
32:49
So we go direct to the producers and we can go direct to the tea
32:53
vendor or charge it. Yeah.
32:56
To ask what is they think why this is not, why it has to be
32:59
this, not that quite, for example.
33:02
And then we mix up everything and we create our own style.
33:06
One of the things we were discussing was the matcha scene
33:09
in London. So if you had to give advice to
33:12
other markets, London, Paris, NY, Los Angeles, what can cafe
33:18
owners, matcha brands and consumers do to create this type
33:24
of culture that has developed in Thailand?
33:27
Because we've been talking a lot and we feel like what's
33:30
happening in Thailand is new culture formation, but there's
33:35
not a very traditional ceremonial lens placed on the
33:38
products. The focus is on the appreciation
33:41
of the tea itself and doing everything you can to make the
33:45
best flavors be expressed by the tea in formats that people like
33:50
and learning with consumers like.
33:53
There's a tight feedback loop between the products and the
33:57
preparation of products and what consumers want.
34:00
And this is seems to be the cycle of feedback and it's
34:04
created this really unique new culture.
34:06
How can we get to that in Paris? How can we see this kind of menu
34:11
in London? You know what?
34:12
I am a horrible person to give a feedback to someone.
34:15
OK, Yeah, I. I'm very bad in this month.
34:19
I just tried to go back on our early day to see what we are
34:23
doing. On the first day I told someone
34:27
from a tea school. He came to the tea school and he
34:29
asked me why did you use the scale on every stage like feed K
34:35
bat indoors, the measuring the liquid, measuring the hot water
34:41
and everything. So we use the skill on every
34:43
stage. And he mentioned that OK, in
34:45
Japan no one do this, no one just go with their experience.
34:48
And I just told him simply that I have 5 staff that on that day
34:52
and five staff they have their different like.
34:58
Different groups, they have different experience.
35:01
Yeah, and in every part of the day they have different
35:05
emotional. Yeah, so that's why do you feel
35:08
in a rush? Do you feel calm?
35:10
Yeah. So that's why they still help
35:12
for us. Yeah, we do that.
35:14
This is how we do it. I told our staff that, OK, if
35:18
you make a mistake, if you pour out too much, too many hot
35:22
water, OK, don't send this to the customer.
35:25
You keep it for yourself. It is a good thing anyway.
35:28
But it might change slightly, a little bit.
35:30
Yeah, I don't know. But we don't do it and we don't
35:33
try. So you keep it for yourself to
35:35
make a new one with a perfect ratio.
35:39
Yeah, we're the perfect ratio. We're the perfect standard.
35:41
That's crazy. And no one, no one can blame us.
35:44
You keep doing this and then the customer will notice.
35:48
Yeah. And the customer will leave
35:49
purchase and the and if you are doing good, someone will look up
35:53
to you, yeah. Yeah, you set the standard.
35:55
Yeah, and everyone will like then get inspired.
35:58
Yeah, someone, someone will get inspired or maybe some customer
36:03
who who like the pairs. I'm the one that have a good
36:07
standard. You tell the other one who, hey,
36:09
you should do, you should use scale, you should, you should
36:13
safety, you should clean the cup, you should.
36:16
That one should be more common, yeah.
36:19
But this this helped this helped to make the much higher in Black
36:26
Hawks has so high standard, I guess.
36:29
Yeah, because if everyone asks stick to their standard, the
36:34
customer will interest and the customer will help to spread out
36:37
the word order customer will help to employers to standard.
36:41
How often do you receive very candid or critical feedback from
36:47
customers? Most of the day, yeah, I read.
36:50
I read the comments, the customer every day, good or bad.
36:54
I read it all the time by myself.
36:57
Do they like leave comments on like Google map or do they tell?
37:01
You'd say this gentleman, they will bring the drink to the
37:05
customer and the customer will leave the feedback on it.
37:10
Sometimes it can be just a simply complement like OK, good
37:13
as usual. And so we take it, we take it or
37:17
sometimes it can be a complaint, OK, the tea get a little bit
37:21
oxidized by the distance of the delivery.
37:27
Wow. So we take that comment.
37:28
Interesting. We have, I think the most
37:30
important thing is by doing the Master Cafe here or the business
37:35
here. That's a fundamental I am AT
37:38
lover and you guys are T lover. So we are, we, we are not like
37:43
100% this entrepreneur like we, we are still at T level.
37:48
So we think about the customer to make sure that they will get
37:51
something that they will be happy.
37:53
And if you think like that, we will try to do our, we will try
37:56
to do the best to deliver. Interest.
37:58
I guess the customer base really matters too, because in some
38:02
cultures, you know, customers are generally not that candid.
38:06
They don't give feedbacks that often, which I think is really a
38:11
shortcoming for a lot of business.
38:13
But if the customer doesn't give a feedback, you have to really
38:16
show that you are doing what you are trying to do.
38:22
There are some feed, for example, when they have a
38:25
feedback that, OK, this is not good enough, I will make that
38:31
menu and bring it. If I still, if I like it, if
38:35
there is no problem with the quality, if there are no problem
38:38
with the Brewer, we won't change anything.
38:42
But we have to make sure that we are like it and we really want
38:45
to present this type of flavor for a matcha latte.
38:48
We put a different level of the matcha dose on it, right?
38:52
We fix for example of it. OK, let's say we start with 5g
38:57
and there may be some some mustard that we be designed to
39:00
use 6 grams, 7g or more because we are happy with the test with
39:05
this concentration. And when the people say OK, this
39:08
is to better, I will make I will make a cup and taste it.
39:13
If I like it, I won't change anything, OK, Yeah, but at least
39:17
we have a choice for them. That's kind of if that customer
39:20
come back to the store. OK, you don't like the store?
39:23
Must have. We have the other.
39:24
Wow. Very, very bartender almost kind
39:27
of bespoke style, yeah. Because if you change it like if
39:32
if someone complaints OK, this for example, this suicide is to
39:35
beat her and you change, you will lose your your standard I
39:41
guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very
39:43
interesting. It's interesting in Thailand,
39:45
the majority of the drinks, I've noticed almost everyone drinks
39:48
iced, iced Americano like light brew style or with milk.
39:52
That must change the selection. And when you do the sensory
39:56
evaluation, how do you build a model in your mind of what the
40:00
usucha tastes like? And then how this, what is this
40:03
going to taste like when I diluted this water or with ice
40:07
or with milk? Because I've noticed that I
40:10
can't predict it yet. It's so hard to know what a
40:12
matcha's will taste like with dilution, temperature and milk.
40:16
I feel like hundreds of times, which I'm sure you've done.
40:18
No. But what we are doing, what we
40:20
are saying is, for example, if this matcha, we put it into 3
40:24
menus, right? A traditional which is have a
40:28
cup of matcha Americano and a cup of matcha latte.
40:31
We put a different description of the menu in it, OK, because
40:37
it won't taste the same. For example, there are one
40:40
matcha from Cokasho. I guess that one is a matcha
40:43
from Kirali 31. Yes, I saw you drop.
40:46
You had crazy lines with the door.
40:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That 1 is really, really
40:51
delicious with Uzucha and with the masa oregano.
40:55
And then when we add the milk, the amino acid has the protein
41:00
and the fat to add. To the milk.
41:03
To add to the milk, it becomes taste like 3 inches, 3 inches.
41:07
Bree, interesting. So that's when we turn it.
41:11
OK, This is really, really cheesy, Bree.
41:14
We put the B on it, but we don't put the B on.
41:17
That's that's how we do. And sometime when we we drink it
41:20
as the Americano, it has some some 5 or 8 space which will
41:27
which we cannot find in the matcha latte.
41:30
So we just don't say it. There's a lot of judgment in the
41:33
West, particularly in the United States, for taking high quality
41:36
matcha and mixing it with milk. They say it's not respectful,
41:41
the tradition. They say that it has all of
41:44
these delicate flavors that then get destroyed when you add milk
41:48
and sugar. And I hate this argument.
41:51
And I think these people need to take a trip to Bangkok and
41:54
actually always use MTCH as the example where you can really
41:59
make 1 + 1 = 3. And actually these really
42:03
special see very specific cultivars just completely change
42:07
and it's just a different expression that is just as valid
42:12
and just as good then if you make it traditional way or the
42:16
right way. Even for like the traditional
42:18
way, if you go to Wuji nowadays, like for example, holy shit man
42:23
they have their tensha or matcha gland specifically designed to
42:27
be planned with milk. Like the Japanese are doing it
42:30
too. Yeah, I think that's how we end
42:32
up to, to, to the world, I guess.
42:35
Because as you see in here, we have like we become one matcha
42:40
in Bangkok E, right. And you, you experience it now.
42:42
I don't want to stand up and hate shout to the people new to
42:47
the people that OK, let's stop doing this and let's go back to
42:50
the traditional way. Because actually there is no
42:53
real real traditional way. Or maybe sometimes when you
42:55
think about the traditional way or this the appropriate or a
42:59
suitable way, the people in here feel there is no connections
43:03
because they they've never been to the teaspoon.
43:06
Yeah. It's not their tradition.
43:08
Meaningless. It's not their tradition, yeah,
43:11
but. But most of the time when, when
43:15
you saw the matcha, the matcha didn't use in in the matcha
43:18
latte. When you think about the type
43:21
that kind of the matcha, I think, OK, let me put it this
43:24
way. You might see someone use the
43:27
matcha or Croatia make a matcha latte.
43:30
But I think that is just a home experimental or I'm very, very
43:34
few people who run the cafe doing that.
43:37
But it cannot force into a real business anyway.
43:41
That's yeah, that's interesting. It's like literally not
43:43
profitable. Yeah, it literally not
43:46
profitable or even if you use like these and uses are great
43:49
matsa, it will not go into the real business profit anyway
43:52
because the cost will be too high and the price have will be
43:55
too high. No one will buy it and make a
43:57
like sustainable business. So I think we have to put it
44:00
this way first. And then when we think about the
44:03
Matsa, that single Codewa Matsa, there are single Codewa Matsa
44:07
that are award-winning to it, which we just make it into A and
44:12
there is simply a single matcha. So that's mean the single matcha
44:17
or single doesn't have to be really, really expensive or
44:21
always in the that is like if you can find like an OCU Middle
44:25
East matcha which cost like 100 USD per kilo and you make and
44:31
you put it into a masa latte, it's just OK.
44:34
And most of the people here are doing like that.
44:36
Yeah. So there's the real thing.
44:38
And when you apply and when you try to think, when you think
44:41
about it quality of this of whom Italy 33000 mark per kilogram,
44:47
100 USD per kilogram, it couldn't went to a cable plate
44:51
much high. Anyway with the cable plate much
44:54
most of the time when people think OK, if you want a good I
44:57
mean and masa latte go for a cable plate same thing.
45:01
So I think there is no right or wrong, but we just need to
45:07
understand what of the world and try to understand what we are
45:11
doing and try to understand what they are saying.
45:13
Is there such a thing as a matcha that's so high quality
45:18
that it should never touch milk whereas?
45:21
I think bottom line of this, if they're, if the buyer happy to
45:24
do it, just let them do you cannot blame them their money,
45:28
yeah. It's their product.
45:30
Yeah, their product. And one day they will know that
45:32
they're a waste of their money or they're just happy with what
45:35
they are. Or do you think so?
45:37
But even the highest quality much if possible, if you prepare
45:40
it with enough skill the right way, you can make 1 + 1 = 3.
45:44
Or it really does create a new flavor profile that just
45:48
couldn't have existed with any other matcha.
45:51
Yeah, because here, even here, I think a couple years ago I had
45:54
Narino as a latte and I was the cheesiness I had never
46:00
experienced that hit a latte, just a just a new flavor.
46:04
Because a lot of people would be very upset even mixing Norino
46:07
with milk because since a rare a Saiyan cultivar, but it really
46:12
just creates something when that Hai Umami hits milk.
46:15
It's a flavor that just doesn't exist otherwise.
46:18
Depends on the milk too, right? Like all milks are not.
46:20
Everything but I think it's their own side.
46:24
OK, three months ago we did we did a workshop.
46:27
No, not a workshop. We did an experience, a testing
46:31
experience with the fresh made ice cream.
46:33
We we sell a ticket for the ice cream experience a fresh made
46:38
Gelato. So we we do a tea and Gelato
46:41
paddling with many things sounds great.
46:43
And the main course of that one is a freshly made premium.
46:47
Now we know I can, I can tell you.
46:49
Premium Narito the Hand sorted 1.
46:51
Yeah, the hand, the gold camera. Yeah, the gold camera.
46:55
What we do, we took the ice cream vendor.
46:59
Yeah, we add some mixture and then we just pour two chance of
47:06
premium. Now you know, in there.
47:07
Wow. And make a fresh meal.
47:09
And make a fresh meal Gelato in front of the guest.
47:14
Oh, like there in real time? What?
47:17
What did it taste like? Crazy and can you expect that
47:22
the taste like the capsicum from the premium?
47:25
Now we know super green, super fresh Puma me Hi Oiga, you can
47:30
think about like when you drink like Sierra carbones, some young
47:33
and you drink something a little bit of capsicum, but it's it's
47:36
very present. It's very enjoyable.
47:39
I made the quesa out of the premium.
47:41
Now you know many time I never expand this type of flavor, so I
47:44
think this is. It only came with and the
47:47
frozenness and the temperature. So you get to see and
47:51
dimensionalize that tea in a new way.
47:53
And people are happy. And do you think the farmers,
47:56
from our experience, they actually pass no judgment when
47:59
we talk about this sort of thing when we're in Japan?
48:02
So like, you know, if you were to go back to the producer, do
48:06
you think that they mind how their tea is being used?
48:08
Is this, I think is like the highest level culinary.
48:11
Then it gets like kind of breaks the definition of culinary great
48:15
because it's literally being used as an ingredient, but it's
48:17
just at such a high level that it feels worth it.
48:20
Like it's it's. I think if we can explain what
48:25
we are doing, not just for fun and.
48:27
Intention, intention. Yeah, intention and what we
48:30
expect the output of doing this and tell them they will be very
48:34
happy because most of the thing when the tea producer get afraid
48:39
of because it out of their compost zone.
48:43
OK, wow, that makes sense. For example, this tea is meant
48:46
to be A and some people in UT have seen this one made into a
48:51
for their entire life. They have no idea how it's going
48:55
to be when it's become a fresh made, so that's why they feel
48:59
OK. Are you sure you are doing this?
49:01
Because they have no idea. But if you have a very strong
49:04
intention and you are not playing with it, you're not
49:08
waste the tea. Actually waste the tea is very
49:12
subjective, but if you have the intention I think it's OK and
49:16
they'd be OK. Yeah.
49:17
Do you ever give feedback back to your producers?
49:20
Or some. Really, consumers love this.
49:23
They didn't love that. I tried this.
49:24
It was good, but I tried it this way and it wasn't good.
49:27
Yeah, that's the reason I I go to take that many times in the
49:29
year. Not, not that far, not that far.
49:31
I'm not just taking a photo because taking a photo is is
49:34
nothing new. You, you, you go to a garden and
49:37
you take a photo. Next year, same thing.
49:39
How willing are the farmers to work with you to create
49:42
something that you you need or create something that you're
49:45
telling them consumers? Want you mean how willing?
49:48
How willing like are they? Are they willing to work?
49:50
With you they are willing they are.
49:53
So they will make changes. Yeah.
49:54
OK. Wow.
49:56
That's great. But most of them, you know what,
49:59
I didn't ask them to change anything, OK?
50:01
I never asked them to change anything.
50:03
I just tell them what what we are doing and what we expect.
50:09
It's still really good because historically they are so
50:12
isolated or insolate away from the consumers by, you know, all
50:16
these tea houses, Chashis products just gets blend into
50:22
all of these little cans. They have no idea, you know how
50:24
consumers are enjoying their. Product I just try to connect.
50:27
The dot I can, yeah. Yeah, this is wonderful.
50:30
I hope I'm doing OK. Wow, so great.
50:34
In 21 I went to Wuji with a tea that made in here and I put it
50:40
into like a plastic house that then you see.
50:43
Yeah. OK.
50:44
And I bring this Matala they made in Thailand by their powder
50:48
interesting to them to test. OK, wow.
50:51
To them to test and we sit and OK please try what we are doing
50:55
here in Thailand. This is a very strong.
50:59
And they asked him again what do you think about this?
51:03
He said the framework of the tea is very pronounced.
51:06
Is it like drinking? And but this is a wow.
51:10
So I think, yeah, I'm not sure he liked it or not, but I think
51:14
when he when he can feel the tears on his matcha in matcha
51:18
latte form, which is like something that people not try to
51:23
try to encourage. Yeah, because usually it's just
51:25
so diluted in milk you can't taste anything.
51:28
It's almost a color. Yeah, still express it enough.
51:31
But when the producer said by himself, I think it is.
51:35
That's great. Yeah.
51:37
Yeah, this matcha actually. That's really encouraging to
51:41
hear. And is it mostly just about the
51:43
ratios, like you have the right extraction method for the matcha
51:46
base and then you're just not adding too much milk.
51:49
So because like everything here is relatively concentrated so
51:53
you can actually taste the tea. But other than that, are there
51:56
any other best practices really express the taste of the tea?
52:01
What is the question? We in milk, so if when you mix
52:04
it with milk, other than having a very concentrated beverage
52:08
where you know, maybe it's 150 milliliters and very well
52:11
extracted tea, are there any like things the Brewer can do to
52:15
make sure that you're expressing the tea because a lot of lattes
52:18
are very not expressive. Also depends on the milk too I
52:21
guess. Like how do you select the milk?
52:23
Yeah, that is the first part. But when when we open a carpet,
52:26
we only have one milk, so we don't have to care much about
52:29
the variation of the milk. The brewing method can help.
52:33
OK, you go back to the go back to the part of extraction that I
52:37
just mentioned. Yeah, there are three-part of
52:39
the extraction, the least soluble part, the the normal
52:43
soluble part and the the most soluble part, the normal soluble
52:47
part and the least soluble part. Sometime when you find some
52:51
matcha that has content of the thing like Hika or the thing
52:56
like the least soluble part and you want to expect it, maybe you
53:00
mix it by the hand. It's not enough.
53:01
So I just throw it into a vendor and make I really put a really,
53:05
really strong force to extract the favor.
53:09
But sometimes I do a different with the with the matter that
53:12
that has like ACC framework that the tears from the the
53:16
concentration of the omnibus that that will go really fast if
53:20
you extract too high. So that's why we use the
53:22
handbooks. So you risk it less if it's
53:25
Moromami. So you don't over extract the
53:27
amino acids, which then tastes super cheesy enough.
53:31
Which makes sense because cheesy is like really high protein
53:33
content. Yeah, it's interesting.
53:35
But you have to remember that. This is very sophisticated.
53:40
You have to remember that when you mention that, OK, you don't,
53:43
you wish it gently. You have to make sure that the
53:46
smoothness, the mouthfeel is OK. Otherwise your Mashala, they
53:50
will be like crampy and dusty. Yeah, and it's a couple of no
53:54
good thing. Yeah, Wow.
53:56
Interesting. Or sometime when you extract
53:59
really really hard on the the marsala latte, you don't extract
54:03
the taste of the marsala so clean, you extract the taste of
54:07
the milk too. And sometimes you extracted when
54:10
you extract the the tears and the aroma of the milk so hard
54:14
it's overpowered and much. Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of
54:17
milk, it's just like the milk over shines.
54:20
We taste a lot of things in latte and our milling
54:22
experiments and Dongjin says that tastes like Oatly.
54:25
Some. Sometimes it's not about the
54:26
way, so it's about the extracting of the milk too.
54:29
Wow crazy. They're different recipes for
54:31
how long you whisk to brewing time also.
54:34
Yeah, we always do the do the. OK, what's the range?
54:40
What's the shortest risking time and the longest risking time?
54:44
We have 72nd to 90 seconds. 30 to 90 seconds. 90 seconds.
54:50
Wow is that for like really deep rich haika teeth to extract all?
54:58
The layers, yeah, it's depend, but we we use like a different
55:02
method to do to do a, it's like a.
55:05
Tin Fist Ramos. But it's really.
55:07
But it's really worthful trying. Interesting.
55:10
Yeah, we need to do more experiments on this because no
55:12
one talks about these levels of extraction theory.
55:15
You can try by yourself. You have one matcha and bit
55:19
milk. You put the same amount of time
55:20
and same amount of the milk and you basically short, medium and
55:28
longer and you see. Do you whisk with the milk?
55:31
Yeah. With the milk, with the.
55:33
Milk, Yeah, in here we have a specific style, we call it
55:36
called which latte. So we just add a milk into a
55:40
must have powder. Interesting.
55:43
Yeah. So outside of Thailand people
55:46
usually whisk equator and then dump it directly into it and or
55:50
mix it up. I don't like it and it's become
55:53
a market standard. Yeah, in here when you go to
55:55
achieve market, achieve fair, you will see all the.
55:58
Yeah, I saw everywhere. Yeah.
56:00
Interesting you will find a 3 minutes a milkiness of the cup
56:04
at the first place. The first menu consider it to to
56:08
cut some masala, the one contain like 150 mils of milk and the
56:13
second one contain A50 mils of water.
56:16
Yeah, a lot of dilution. Yeah, that's a dilution, yeah.
56:20
How do you but your cold your cold brewing it though?
56:24
Don't you miss out on some of the aromatic profiles or is it
56:28
is that intentional for the matcha that you select for this
56:31
application? When we do the cold brew, we
56:34
intentionally present the aroma or the test from the least
56:39
soluble part. From the least soluble.
56:41
Part That's chocolate tea. So you just waste vigorously for
56:45
a long time. No, we need a we make, we make a
56:49
masala and we leave it for like 3 hours before serving.
56:53
Oh it's pre made. Yeah, that is a cool blue fancy
56:56
because you have to make sure that the tea is the tea is
56:59
extract themselves because the tea is not like coffee.
57:05
When you drink a filter coffee, you filter everything and you
57:08
just drink the water that you filter everything, right.
57:12
But the tea called a masa, the masa is floating and all the all
57:17
the time that they are floating is still expect themselves.
57:19
Yeah, yeah. And you need time because you
57:23
want to pitch in or you want to highlight the test of the meat
57:26
soluble part, which is more like nutty, chocolatey, a bit up to
57:31
test. This is the I think how
57:33
beautiful the whole blue is. So it just takes 3 hours to
57:37
extract all of. That yeah, we did an experiment
57:42
of the Kobu matcha and the Hogu matcha latte.
57:46
And we also doing, we also post a workshop for a customer.
57:52
So we have a set of a Kobu matcha.
57:59
This one is freshly made. This one is 3 hours and this one
58:05
is 18 hours. OK, 18.
58:08
Hours. That's like standard coffee,
58:09
cold per time. 18 hours and we do a blind test.
58:12
We don't tell the customer, OK, let's see from each matter, same
58:17
amount of powder, same amount of the milk, different income.
58:20
OK, which one you prefer? Some would say this one is
58:23
small, delicious. Some would say this one is
58:25
malicious. So it's your choice, but at
58:28
least you know. Yeah.
58:29
Oh wow. Must be so much work to prepare
58:32
all of these different drinks. It's very complicated.
58:35
How how how long? Like what's the usual time range
58:39
for you to develop a recipe? Like how does it usually take?
58:44
No, I have no framework. No framework.
58:46
I just keep it's. The indefinite project until you
58:48
get it. Right.
58:49
Yeah, yeah, until we get a right.
58:51
But who knows, when you find a perfect recipe for for a cup and
58:56
you really like it at that time when you come back to bring it
59:00
again like 2 years ago, 2 year later, you might not like it
59:05
anymore. Really.
59:06
Yeah, it happens. Just happened.
59:09
So it's very different, difficult to answer.
59:14
Yeah, wow, so much behind the scenes.
59:18
Yeah. So if you go back to your
59:21
question at the end of at the beginning about unwise to a much
59:27
enthusiastic or a cafe or I think there are so much to
59:31
learn. It's never a finished.
59:34
Recipe they know that in Japan it's like an ocean, not
59:38
something, but the knowledge as a people outside Japan when we
59:42
have like a more flexible rule to apply is even really, really
59:48
fun and have to look through it carefully.
59:50
It's a constant learning and constant changing.
59:54
Nothing is never. Maybe that is the part that I I
59:58
still keep my power brands just have free location.
1:00:01
So that's why I still have time to enjoy the thing like this
1:00:04
because just go back to the beginning at T level.
1:00:08
I like Mata, so that's why I'm doing this.
1:00:10
So I don't want to become a big businessman.
1:00:13
Yeah. So yeah, like a poetic
1:00:17
expression of yourself and your practice.
1:00:19
Almost the whole, the whole concept, the whole brand, Yeah.
1:00:23
If people come to ask me about the plans, concept, the
1:00:26
inspiration, why you think to open a brand, I have a set of
1:00:31
answer and the answer is it's maybe the same my inspiration to
1:00:36
open a brand. But if people ask me about how
1:00:39
do I work pretty much how my thoughts and I put into a
1:00:43
matcha, I can talk this all this.
1:00:45
Yeah, it's really an expression of like yourself.
1:00:47
That's what's truly authentic. You really feel it here.
1:00:50
It's. Yeah.
1:00:52
It just comes together in a way that's hard to express.
1:00:55
Tea, the lighting, the furnitures, the detail and also
1:00:59
how like all the Staffs are making the tea.
1:01:02
Everything is so coherent and so beautiful.
1:01:05
And same with the vibe, the staff thing.
1:01:07
This never feels in a rush and it's very rare to go to a cafe
1:01:11
or any staff establishment that is so nice even to the delivery
1:01:15
drivers. Like just sitting in an MTC,
1:01:18
it's just walking, watching around, just how nice you can
1:01:22
feel the vibe. It's almost hard to put into
1:01:24
words like because all these drivers come in, everyone gets
1:01:28
treated, everyone gets treated nicely.
1:01:31
Like it just disseminates down to the whole vibe of the whole
1:01:35
place. Just the respect and the level
1:01:37
of care and the level of intentionality.
1:01:40
Even on the car of the Usucha that I ordered the other
1:01:43
morning, it was the exact time to the minute.
1:01:46
It wasn't 930, it was 930. Like all of these little details
1:01:52
and just come together in a very unique experience.
1:01:55
Thanks for saying this. Thanks for notice.
1:01:57
I wish I do OK. Thank.
1:01:59
You. Yeah.
1:01:59
Thank you. Thank you for showing.
1:02:01
Us really setting the standard. I think it's creating an
1:02:06
experience and a space to appreciate this because we,
1:02:08
although all the T lovers kind of live very solo lives on the
1:02:12
Internet almost. We have our practices at home,
1:02:15
but it's rare where you can experience this level of caring
1:02:19
person, especially outside of Thailand.
1:02:21
But I think it's it's changing as more founders start to create
1:02:25
spaces like this. Yeah, many people out there in
1:02:28
Bandfall or the other part in Thailand have to work really
1:02:32
hard to present their their Much up business, try to build up
1:02:37
their own customer base. I think it's a fun scene, a fun
1:02:41
festival. Most of the time if I have time,
1:02:44
I try to visit a cafe of a friend who or the old customer
1:02:50
who come to here and get inspired and then they open
1:02:53
their own Much Up, Much Up Cafe. Yeah, I really would love to do
1:02:58
when I have time. Yeah.
1:02:59
And I think the people, like I mentioned, the people try to try
1:03:02
to send their stand up, try to make something nice, to treat
1:03:06
the customer nicely, to build up the community here.
1:03:09
I think I really, I really encourage the people who who
1:03:12
think they like, who like matcha, who who try, who want to
1:03:17
learn something not from Kyoto or not from Tokyo to come to
1:03:22
Bangkok. Yeah, absolutely.
1:03:24
Yeah. I really.
1:03:25
Yeah, we do too. Yeah, I think there's a great
1:03:28
note to end on. Thank you for yeah.
1:03:29
Thank you so much. Pleasure as always and
1:03:33
incredible tea. Thank you for having us.
1:03:35
Thank you for coming on the podcast again.
1:03:37
Sure. We're happy to see you and
1:03:40
looking forward to your the development of your project.
1:03:43
Thanks. Thank.
1:03:44
You so we'll try to implement similar centers.
1:03:47
Yes, we take great inspiration from many parts of them.
1:03:51
Thank you so much and thank you to our listeners.
1:03:53
If you enjoyed this, please consider sharing with a friend
1:03:55
and see you in the next one.