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The Anatomy of Leadership: What Thriving Leaders Do Differently · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Maria Vorostovsky, who is the host of the Anatomy of a Leader podcast.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Maria Vorostovsky, who is the host of the Anatomy of a Leader podcast.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: She is a leadership coach and she is one of Europe's top executive search consultants as well.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: She's got over 20 years of experience placing senior leaders, including the first CEO of JW Anderson, and we're going to be talking today with Maria all about founding your own business and women in leadership.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: What founders get wrong about hiring their own team.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Maria's also going to be giving some advice and about CVs, interviews and how to make yourself stand out in your job search as well, if that's where you're currently at.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: But before we get all into that, I was just chatting with Maria and I didn't realize that you grew up in Russia and your dad what your stepdad was an opera singer yeah, so, my whole family of musicians.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: My mom was a ballet dancer.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: My father my biological father plays the flute.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: He's a professor of music, and my stepfather was a very famous opera singer, who I share my surname with.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, so everyone's a musician and I'm the one who ran away from the circus and became a headhunter.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: What a difference.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I cannot think of a whole opposite type jobs than recruitment and musician.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I did want to go into theatre when I was younger.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted, I had that performance gene, but I chickened out.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I was younger I wanted, I had that performance gene, but I chickened out.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I got too scared and I decided to go down this you know, serious professional route instead.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: So I went and got a degree in psychology because I thought, you know, have a good degree, follow my grandmother's advice, like you know, get a good degree, get educated.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Where did you study?
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Did you study here or in Russia?
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: yeah, so we came here when I was 12, okay, and so pretty much most of my schooling like GCSEs A-levels degree was in the UK.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah wow, it's interesting because I bet that psychology age.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I can sort of see a weave now talking to you.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever thought that, but you know like it takes a lot of courage to start a business yeah and I'm wondering if you got that from those early days when you maybe were toying with becoming a performer and then the psychology obviously helps with the recruitment you know what I think, like looking back now and having this 20 years of experience and beginning to connect the dots and being very deliberate about, you know, really thinking through why did I make the decisions then, about what was important to me.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: And I have this policy of, like you know, I don't have regrets of the choices I've made but at the same time, looking forwards and thinking well, how do I create and design my career now?
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: How do I take that experience and how do I apply it?
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And actually a lot of things made sense.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: It made sense that I went to do psychology.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: It made sense that I ended up in headhunting.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: It made sense that I started my own business and now I'm at a point of yet another reinvention.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: How do I take that and apply it forward?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: So, in terms of the psychology degree, I mean that's very tightly linked to theatre and acting and performance, because a lot of it is understanding human nature.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: It's about learning, you know, what makes us tick, why do we behave the way we do?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Like what's the purpose of emotions?
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: So that made sense.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: And like looking back now also the A-levels that I did.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: I did theater studies, english and biology, and so all of these things are also being kind of entwined.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Even the name of my podcast, anatomy of a Leader yeah, a lot of science, that physical, biological aspect to it.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: But we're talking about finding a business and being brave At the time I didn't really think it was being brave, I just thought I have nothing to lose Literally.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Why did you have nothing to lose?
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't really have a name.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Did you have a job at that point?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I did have a job.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I started.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I was at a boutique executive search firm, which is where I kind of honed my craft as a researcher.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was progressing fast enough, so I wanted to move into consultancy and an opportunity came along when I was headhunted to a fashion recruitment business that was spinning off an executive search arm within it, was spinning off an executive search arm within it, and I came in, took a massive pay cut to get the experience of literally like sales and building a business.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: And so I was on a plane, traveling, you know, going to meet with people I've never met before to try to drum up some business.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what?
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: And at the time my granddad died as well.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: And at the time my granddad died as well.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, life's too short and I, you know, if I'm gonna give it a go, I might as well give it a go now.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I can always go and get another job.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: And you know, I didn't have anything to lose because I wasn't known in the industry.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I had very good contacts and I was pretty much doing you know 80 percent of business development that was from scratch.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: And I was pretty much doing you know 80% of business development that was from scratch.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: And I thought, well, if I can do that here, why can't I do that for myself?
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: And if it doesn't work out, you know I'll just go live with my mom and, you know, get another job.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And so I just sort of went for it.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: No grand plan, you know, use whatever contacts I've got.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And I started billing within six months and I was like, okay, well, let's keep it going and see how it goes.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I didn't have a grand plan.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't say, oh, I want to create this kind of a executive search firm.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, the whole time I was thinking I still want to find that one thing that's mine that I really want to do whilst I'm taking care of myself financially.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: And then I kind of got sucked in.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I got sucked in into same patterns and essentially, at one point I know you and I talked about it on my podcast at what point I was like I wanted the freedom I wanted to be able to have, you know, my own structure, my own timetable, and I'm still working in the same way as I was when I was working for somebody else, except that I was doing way more hours than I was doing before, like what do you mean what?
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: running your own business?
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah literally like 24 7, because it was like by stop that, somehow it's all going to disappear tomorrow and so do you still feel like that.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like that anymore, but it's taken a lot of intentional work to to to basically deal with that.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: It's still in the back of my mind and I have to tell myself not to think that way how have you I mean, I'm just wondering because, it's all you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts with coaches and things like that have you done anything like that?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Or have you worked through some of those mindset um, with a coach, with a coach, yeah.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Or I'm just wondering, it's all your psychology background or anything like that have you worked through?
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: How have you worked through that?
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: so multiple things.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: It's a area that I just find very interesting, so I read a book a week about personal development management books.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Um, I study it, so it's something that I literally do on a day-to-day basis yeah, I'm the same.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Every week I've got a new business book normally exactly, I very rarely read novels, only when I'm very, very drained and very tired, and I would sit down in the evening and I might like read it for a little bit, but always drawn to you know whether it's personal development, management, business books.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: The one that I think is somewhat in between is biographies.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I'm really into biographies because I feel like there is that more entertainment and storytelling, yeah, other than just pure hardcore business advice.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: So I enjoy those.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, therapy I've actually you know, my mom passed away, my stepfather passed away.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I faced quite a lot of, you know, personal emotional struggles and going to therapy has been always very helpful because, even if you know yourself what to do, having somebody who you can sit with you, who can ask you the right questions that you might not ask yourself and guide you through that process is really helpful.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: So that has that has really helped.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Um, but I would say it's a, it's a day-to-day thing.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think like you work on it and put it down and that's it.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's a, it's a practice, that it's like brushing your teeth you just have to do it every day yeah, I'm wondering if there's anything that you learned.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: You learned about what makes humans tick or anything like that was when you did your psychology degree.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that like has stuck with you?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: That was quite surprising, definitely not during my degree.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I did not learn much about humanity studying it.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I definitely learned a lot more about it talking to people through my recruitment work and having dealt with people in my personal and professional life as a human being.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: But paying attention and noticing I think that made the biggest difference, rather than necessarily learning about it from a you know, from from a book, for example.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, so, through my podcast especially, I mean, I spent hours first of all researching people, then having them in front of me, but I think you learn more about people, about how they behave, rather than what they say.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: So it's something that I definitely pay attention to like.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Are you what you're saying matching up with what you're doing?
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: That has taught me a lot.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you feel like this.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've had so much free coaching and therapy through my podcast.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like every every time I interview someone, I come away feeling all inspired.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've learned something new and I remember something um that really stuck out with me and another lady I interviewed, um was talking about the subconscious, and this is something that's I'm wondering if you touched on this in your degree but that 80% of our decisions actually come from subconscious, that we're not really realizing we're doing.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: And that's a good thing, because there's only so much that your brain can cope with in your like your, you know your conscious space.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: You know our brain and I'm a huge follower of Lisa Barrett Feldman Barrett.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: She's a neuroscientist who studies emotions.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Her book is very comprehensive and very interesting, to the point where the other day I was like couldn't sleep because I had so much on my mind.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I was like you know what, maybe I can do a PhD, maybe I can do a PhD on emotions and I want Lisa to be like, I want to like work with her.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: But there is our brain predicts.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: So, instead of being reactive and this is what she talks about like our brain predicts in order to be much more efficient.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: So you know, when you're speaking to me, in my head I'm basically completing your sentences and sometimes it's a surprise and sometimes it matches, and so we learn by predicting whether what is actually happening in our environment is it following our prediction.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Need our body, we need our brain to operate on instinct to protect us and to keep us to survive, because reacting just will be simply too slow.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And I think what's really interesting about humans is our ability to unpack some of that unconscious things and bring them into our conscious awareness.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: And that's why, you know, we talk about like being meditation, being woo-woo, and it really isn't.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I think it's about like looking inwards and listening to what your physical body, what your emotions, are signaling to you, so then you can make better decisions about what's right for you in terms of environment, what's right for you in terms of people, the kind of work where you're potentially not suited to.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: How do you choose the projects that you work on?
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: How do you choose your hobbies?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: How do you choose your partner?
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: All of that is inside you, like trying to tell you.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: If only you were to slow down a little bit and to listen, and I find that whole space super fascinating.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I was listening to another podcast the other day with Jay Shetty, oh yeah and he was talking about.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: He meditates for 90 minutes a day.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I mean like.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I believe that yeah, yeah, I believe he does that, but yeah, yeah, I was like that is a long time.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Once in a while, and whenever I do, is when I feel both more centered but also my focus improves, and the things that I would find really difficult to do, all of a sudden I can do them within shorter periods of time, and then have spare time left over to focus on the things that you know bring me enjoyment and pleasure.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So there is something about focusing on one thing at a time and training our focus, which is what meditation helps us to do like slow down to speed up.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Do you know, I'm a complete novice.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I've never really meditated, I wouldn't even know how to get started and I feel like feeling a weird way.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: That's a barrier to me, because I do hear so many people talk about how beneficial it is.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: But I'm like I just want to know how to start.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I think, like anything, you just start and you just like sit down and close your eyes like this is like something very basic, I have to say that for years I've used headspace app and I do like Andy's voice so that helps, but he has other voices that can help you.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I think having a guided meditation is definitely better if you're a novice than just starting and sitting there completely silently, because if you haven't done it, basically what happens is that you sit there and you start to think this is ridiculous and I start thinking about my to-do list and you know I've got to order this on the shopping and this is ridiculous and I start thinking about my to-do list.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: And you know I've got to order this on the shopping and this is all completely normal, and the point is is that you are working towards being okay with feeling agitated and anxious and annoyed with everything that's going on in your brain and once you get a feel for it, it becomes almost like your thoughts.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: They're still there, but they slow down and they for want of a better word kind of just get organized, like they're like getting your ducks in a row and all of a sudden you can float through your thoughts rather than being like bombarded, overwhelmed and overwhelmed, and I think that's because we don't practice that.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: I think that's where overwhelm really takes a hold, because when we have a most especially as women- so you know, just if you just do 10 minutes of this and I'm gonna try it now the people that need this the most is don't even do 10 minutes, do three minutes yeah, but the people that probably need this most are working moms, are that are really, you know, generally quite overwhelmed actually.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, three minutes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: The busier you are, the more space you need to be able to do that, because we can't.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: We're human beings, we're biological beings.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: We can't keep going with no rest and no stop and no breaks, because our brain is just not designed that way.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I mean the way the world of work is organized, this idea of I know obviously it's a miracle to be able to talk to you via Zoom, but to do that for eight hours a day, you know we're not designed to do that, we're designed to, you know lie under a tree and you know sprint once every once in a while.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: We need that variety, variety, and I think we're trying to make our work and our lives too rigid and too onerous that we need to incorporate the opposite of what we're doing.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: So if we are constantly like running getting to the next thing, we need moments of stillness, which then enhance the ability to get things done.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: So what's the difference?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Because someone's listening to this.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: They've heard you speak about executive search a bit during the podcast.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: What's the difference between executive search and traditional recruitment agency?
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I'll tell what executive search is, because I think there's many different versions of recruitment and how it's done.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: So executive search, as the name implies, is searching for executives, so it tends to be looking for talent at a senior level, so it tends to be head of director, you know C-suite board, so it's usually people who have a lot of experience under their belt within a specific sector, industry.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: And search implies that it's less about them coming to you and you're constantly getting to know people.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And when a client comes to you and they say I am doing this with my business, this is my, my plan, my goals, I think I'm looking for x, y and z marketing director, ceo, digital director and this is what they need to do in order to make my business successful.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's essentially what they come to you with and then you will advise them of well, if this is what you want to do with your business, this is the kind of individuals that are available in the market and this is the kind of individual that you can hope to have within your business.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And then you create a brief and then you go out into the market and you search for them and through my work I mean I started off as a researcher, which meant that I would trawl through when LinkedIn was invented.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I started before LinkedIn existed, going to libraries and looking for books and underlining people's names and writing them down and then trying to find telephone numbers and making up emails to get hold of them.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: But basically trawling through a lot of profiles whether it's on your database on LinkedIn and coming up with what's called the long list of maybe 100 people and then proactively reaching out to them and then screening them for you know, seven minutes on the phone and then, based on who fits the bill for this particular role, approaching them and then interviewing them and presenting the client with a shortlist of four to six qualified amazing people and typically, with executive search, you also get paid up front.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: So, rather than on success I know there's different models the world is changing, so that's, in principle, how it works.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, and what made you, you know, start in recruitment?
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Well, once I finished university, I finished my psychology degree, I came back home and I'm like, okay, I'm a qualified, I'm not a qualified psychologist, I have a degree, but what am I going to do?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And I ended up just taking my CV into the store around from my house, handing it in.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: They said, come back in an hour.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I come back in an hour, they interview me for like 15 minutes and like, okay, you've got the job.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, I'm starting and working in a store, in a fashion boutique, and I was meant to work there part-time for like three months until I figured out what I was doing.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I ended up staying there for nine months full time and actually also applying to be, you know, asking for a promotion.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Essentially I wanted to you know progress.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And then, two days after me asking for a promotion, the whole business just basically closed down overnight.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Everybody was made redundant Because at that point I also said, look, I'm quitting.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my God, they can't even handle it without me.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously that was not the reason.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: But and then I went to a career, a graduate career, fair, and went to this man called Luke Danes.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I remember them, I remember him to this day and I thought I was applying for like sales and marketing positions and he told me this incredible job and that you're dealing with people and you can make really good money and the money aspect really appealed to me.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like to me.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna lie, I'm like that was what sold it to me and so, and then he put me forward for a few opportunities.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and that's how I, that's how I got he was like a rec to rec.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Then was he.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: He was a rec to rec yeah.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably, you probably wouldn't have known that at the time.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know such a thing existed.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know what recruitment was and what really sealed the deal was the boutique that I went to interview with.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: It was, you know, in a nice townhouse in Primrose Hill.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Everybody was, you know, highly educated.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: There was this, I would even say, a slowness and a certain level of like we're not in a rush here when I went yeah, so you were the complete opposite of haze.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I was at haze, which was crazy, and I remember like people like two phones up to it, yeah no, I remember going for.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I can't remember what the the business was called, but I remember going into this board room and I remember having my hair was really curly at the time.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I was the only woman girl in the room and there were like 20 other boys all wearing suits, with their briefcases, and it was like it's laughable now.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: But there is this moment where the person who was interviewing us hands us a pen and says sell me this pen.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, shall we have that?
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: I died.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I literally died.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I was like I.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: I came out, I was nearly in tears.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: I thought this was the worst experience of my life and I was like, even if, even if, they want to hire me and I'm desperate for a job I don't know if I'm gonna say yes, because this, this is gonna be not for me.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: So when I went to the boutique, it was a completely different experience.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: It was like we take our time here, we get to know people, we do things really well, we do things properly, and that was a very, very good experience.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: And understanding how, first of all, what really good, amazing, talented people look like, and also getting just an inside scoop of what's happening with companies, because it's it's very, it's an invisible job, a headhunter, because you're not really front stage and center.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: You're really behind the scenes, understanding what the challenges are of the business and how do you solve a problem which is people, which is the number one concern for a business.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: If they want to grow, if they want to bring in external expertise, that's the only way to do that and you're the one making that happen.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: And that felt like you were right in the thick of it with what happens with businesses I think.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think recruiters get a bad rep?
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: for sure, and I've experienced it myself because I've never put myself forward.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I haven't put myself forward for a job in a while, but I've had a few recruiters reaching out to me across the last sort of five years or so and I have to tell you I haven't had a single positive experience really why well, first of all they approach me, but then they don't respond to me.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: So what is this?
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because at the very least, if you'll get approached, you need to close it.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's how I operate.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: If I approach somebody, I can't just leave them be like I have.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: If they're not right, I have to at least tell them or tell them something, rather than just completely ghost them.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Lack of feedback.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I know clients don't always provide it, but you can always come back with something you don't have to.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: You can even feedback can be I have no feedback for you, and yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So I think a lot of recruiters do operate that way and I think there is a reason why recruiters get a bad rep, and I think the very few that don't really stand out and they're the really successful ones yeah, I mean I think in, I suppose, in defense of some recruiters is that I went to a job board conference the other week it's really interesting and there was a lady there talking about Indeed and how she'd posted a job on Indeed and it had like 850 applications and she was sort of saying it as a moan really, but actually Indeed had done their job, hadn't they?
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: They've provided it as a moan really, but actually indeed have had done their job, haven't they?
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: They've provided 850 applications.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But I guess it's like, how do you wade through 850 applications?
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Um, and I think recruitment has changed a lot, hasn't it?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: In like the 20-25 years we've been in it, when you're getting, it becomes a lot more just about processing applications probably not at your level well, this is it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I mean it's it's like that, saying choose your hard.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, your hard can be getting lots of cvs and looking through them and potentially getting nowhere.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Or, proactively, look for profiles and get rejected 99 of the time because people don't want to pick up the phone and speak to you until you get to the right people.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: So it's choosing which path to take.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: And when you build your reputation in the industry, getting people to answer your phone or to your messages becomes easier.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what good recruiters do well is when, if you message them or if you call them, they pick up the phone to you.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: That really is about building your personal relationships and that you get recommended, that people come to you and then your name opens doors, whereas so that's the.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: You know, the beauty of being proactive is because you can maintain relationships with really talented people and then they help to open doors for you and vice versa.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, getting this 850 profiles, I would rather look for the best people and choose 15 to call rather than look through 800 CVs, and maybe there'll be like one or two, and I've tried it before.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, let's see what all the fuss is about and I was exhausted and I didn't get the result and I'm like you know what, I'm not gonna operate it.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: So if you are, if there's a candidate listening to this, then how do they make themselves stand out to a recruiter like you?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you know what are you looking for so there's so many different ways to answer that I mean, the best way is to do your job well, but you also get a reputation, you mean in your industry in the industry.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: So for me, if you don't have some sort of a digital profile, I mean, we're going to get onto LinkedIn for sure, because your digital profile speaks for itself and you can be found that way.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: But you don't have to have a digital profile if you do your work well, because if you have good relationships with your boss, your colleagues, your team, your clients, your past colleagues, then they will be the ones who will recommend you.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I think that goes for.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: That really holds a lot of weight.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So, as a recruiter, headhunter, when I'm getting recommendations from people I trust, then those recommendations are gold.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: So you want to be the person who gets recommended by those.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's number one.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Digital profile, LinkedIn look.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: If you want to be found, that's the place to be in, and it's about constructing your LinkedIn profile in a way that will be findable.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: So using keywords, making sure your title of your current job is exactly what recruiters are looking for.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: You can probably tweak it a little bit, maybe with either.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because if you've got a funny job title, really you could make it more generic to appeal to a recruiter.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually working on a solo episode for my podcast about how to improve your linkedin profile, so that's coming.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: But, all right, brilliant, so you can share the link.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Uh, it has.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I haven't recorded it yet.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: It's, yeah, works, but yes, I'll.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Um, I'll put that together.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is build relationships with the recruiters that you trust and don't expect a job to land in a month.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it takes years and years of keeping yourself on the radar of good recruiters who will be able to put your name in the hat when the right opportunity comes.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Because I think there is this expectations of candidates when they come to you that somehow you're working on with like a million clients and really only working with a handful.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: And when you're a headhunter rather than a recruiter, your client is your, the companies that you work for, so you're your, the companies that you work for, so you're.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: The way that you operate is that you are trying to find people for them and maybe you can make introductions speculatively, but the amount of work that's required to really do a search properly is is it's very intense, so you don't necessarily have the bandwidth to be able to help every single individual individually.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I think the model I mean I understand why, but I think sometimes the model is broken because obviously candidates don't pay.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: So it's not really in our interest to actively always promote them, you know, speculatively, unless they're absolutely outstanding.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Always promote them, you know, speculatively out unless they're absolutely outstanding.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I remember doing this at Hayes.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: We do it with actually the thinking well then we'll get a job off that particular client.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: So it's not always, it's a.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: It's funny how the model works and maybe people I don't think candidates quite realize how that model always works yeah, well, this is what I'm saying.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Like, don't expect for them to.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: You know, you've spoken to them and all of a sudden they're going to take you on and you know have a job tomorrow, exactly so the way that relationships work is you need to continuously do them, and one tip is, when you're job seeking is start networking like a year before you want to change your job, and you have to do that continuously because you don't want to be in a position where you're looking for a job.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: You want to be in a position where opportunities come to you, and that's why building relationships with headhunters because you can't predict when the job of your dreams is going to come around you need to be on the radar of those people that they think of you to call you for that specific role, and I think that's the difference between looking for a job and landing exceptional opportunities.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you work at a really senior level, a lot more senior than me, and I'm interested to know what are the leadership qualities that you know that leaders really good leaders typically tend to have, and how, you know, could we cultivate them in ourselves.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I used to think that leadership was about, you know, vision setting the strategy, you know being a good role model, you know all these sort of technical skills and qualities and really, the more I live, the more leaders I speak to it boils down to really just one thing, which is the ability to lead yourself.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: It all starts from within and I would say the three qualities and they all to do with emotions are emotional range, so understanding, being able to name the emotions that are inside of you.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So whether you're feeling anxious, whether you're feeling angry, whether you're feeling surprised or shocked, so this ability to name a very wide range of emotions.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: So this is what I call emotional range.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: The second thing is emotional regulation.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: So can you flow through your emotions rather than getting overwhelmed or pushing them away?
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Can you regulate?
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: And then the other is emotional intentionality, and that is being much more in.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: It's like how, the ability to shape, how you want to feel, and cultivating that through exposing yourself to new experiences, because a leader is the emotional thermometer of a group.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And when I speak to leaders who have all faced very, and when I speak to leaders who have all faced very, especially during COVID, where unprecedented levels of uncertainty, stress, challenges, and basically all of them said it's like people looking to me and I have to hold it together.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: You know, I have to show them how to lead through this, but how am I?
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: You know how am I going to be managing myself and I think this is what great leaders do well is like when can I swear?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: yeah when shit hits the fan can you hold your shit together, and that doesn't mean that you don't feel it.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: It's like how do you feel it and then work with it, because and I don't know if you kind of noticed you know, when somebody comes into the room and all of a sudden, like you feel hopeful, you feel inspired, they are feeling those things inside of themselves and they, almost by osmosis, give that to them.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they radiate that energy, don't they?
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: You can radiate a positive or a negative energy.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: You know, we all know people that we get, because, let's face it, like in history, we've had some pretty shit leaders.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, what leadership has been is authoritarian dictatorship.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: You will do as you're told, leading with fear, leading with like well, if you don't do the job, well, you're out of here.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Like that is very effective, but you have to keep doing that very effective, but you have to keep doing that.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: And in a world where you have more choices, where you can be headhunted by somewhere else, where you don't have jobs for life, you can choose to leave.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And I think people, what I think candidates don't realize is that they can vote with their feet.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: They don't have to stay where they are.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I know it may seem, especially now, that there's so few opportunities, but they are out there.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: It's just a matter of getting to them.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: So, going back to the leadership, it's this ability to inspire and motivate, but that comes from being able to inspire and motivate yourself and being able to actually step into those emotions intentionally, and I think that's what leaders do like amazing leaders do, really brilliantly do you know.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: I'm referencing another podcast now because on the way, obviously, we met yesterday, didn't we, to record your brilliant podcast.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: On the way back, I was listening to a podcast Emma Greeday, or Emma Greed and she's just released a podcast of her own and she was saying 10 things that have served her and one of them was like this getting to know yourself, getting you know working.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: She's done a lot of therapy and she's worked through things and, as she sort of said, that has been so key for her and look at how successful she is.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I had beef with her because on Stephen Bartlett's podcast.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: I mean she talked about work life balance.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard her on his, I just heard her own really stung me and you know, because she says it's a red flag.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, you have to listen to this because I'd love to have your opinion on it, because that one of the red flags for her in a, in a candidate or somebody who, oh, in an interview, is if they ask what's work-life balance like at your company and I was livid at her comment and I think I know what she's trying to say she is like an animal that I listened to her on this podcast.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: She was like so I was drafting this podcast at 11 o'clock on a Friday night.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I was like blimmin' it.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I'm like knackered.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: On a Friday night I wouldn't be drafting a podcast.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with working hard and there is nothing wrong with you know, working all hours.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: If that's what makes you happy and you're physically, you can cope with it and it actually makes you productive or you structure yourself in a certain way.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: But I have a problem with it coming from bosses that rely on people working like that, that don't have equity in businesses and they're crazy hours and crazy work styles for her yeah exactly, but where the rewards they're getting is nowhere near when you are a founder or an owner of a business, and I think that's the shift for me, because I don't think everybody in the world should be expected to work like crazy and build your dream as a founder exactly and I actually I would.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I know that pretty much every founder has gone through that stage where they worked all hours and they said well, I've reached a stage and now I am implementing more work-life balance.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: However, I really want the world to come up with more clever ways of building a business that does not require you to reach almost the brink of insanity in order to make that happen, because I think something's going wrong here.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: You know you're either not don't have a good enough team behind you, you're working on the wrong idea, you're not pivoting enough.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of things that can be done.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: What do you see, because obviously you're working so closely with businesses as they're growing, what do you see?
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Some of the mistakes that businesses make, you know when they're trying to grow and scale.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: And I'm asking this from a hugely selfish, you know, from my perspective, I'm really interested it's all boils down to people hiring the wrong people or not hiring at all or taking too long to do it.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I think what founders get wrong is that they think if they hire that one senior person, all their problems will be solved, and actually I think that's a the wrong way of thinking about it, because when you're hiring, especially at a senior level, and you're expecting to bring in one person, it's usually not one person that makes the difference.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: It's the team that they work with and the people who they can hire into the business, and I think that's where founders need to be aware that they need to be able to hire teams.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I did this project for Deloitte, so not a founder-led business but their whole thing was about bringing in a very senior consultant who will be on the partner track, who not only comes themselves but brings the team with them, and that was one of the most successful placements I have made, and that person has been there for 12 years and the business is booming.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I mean it's amazing.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: So I think teams is a big one.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Hiring for six months ago rather than six months from now.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: I think founders looking for what they needed in the past that they think is about hiring for the present, but actually they need to be hiring for the future, and that tends to be bringing people of a much higher caliber.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Who was it that said it?
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Steve Jobs?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: It's like hire people who you want or is it Mark Zuckerberg quoting Steve Jobs, potentially but you need to hire people for who you will not be embarrassed to work for, so that they need to be so much better than you that you, in a different, alternative universe, that you would work for them.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Those are the people that make a difference.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Love that love that.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Oh, my god, you've really.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: You see, this is it?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: This is why I love doing this podcast, because I'm gonna go away from our chat and feel like it's springing my step and you have inspired me, so I'm gonna go, I'm gonna download, I'm gonna start meditating confidence now to grow my business as well, which is really good, and we've obviously had such a robust discussion, I think just before we wrap up.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: It was so interesting what you're saying about creating space, and I think that is something that women struggle with, and I just want to finish with how do you create?
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I know you're busy, you know you've got two kids, you've got a business.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: How do you create space for you?
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've worked it out, if I'm completely honest.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: It's like an intention.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: It's about being intentional and saying that is what I need and that's what I need to create, and it comes down to having very difficult conversations with my partner, first and foremost because it's about like how can, how can you support me in being able to take time for myself.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's giving permission for yourself first, of actually saying that it's okay to have that moment of space and not have to be a mom, a partner, a business owner that you can actually down tools, go for a walk.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: The other day I was so overwhelmed.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: You know what I did I booked myself a hotel and I went by myself and I just went and I just took a book and I was there for 24 hours and I did nothing, and it felt like such a luxurious thing.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't even have to be like a nice hotel.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I think just going away, exactly Like go and just take a moment, and that you're not bombarded constantly by other people's wants, I think that is a really big thing and just carving out some time that's just for you.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: I'm working on this little diary that I'm hoping that will be ready by September, a physical diary and one of the things I do is like what is a joy creator?
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Call it a joy creator.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: What's one joy creator that's just for me that I can add into my diary before I add anything else, whether it's a meditation, whether it's a workout, whether it's reading a book, whether it's I don't know sitting outside with a cup of coffee or tea or getting my makeup done, like what is my one joy creator that makes me feel really good and I add it into my calendar first and that doesn it into my calendar first.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: And that doesn't happen every single day, but that's my intention.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: This has been gold.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I've really, really enjoyed our chat.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Maria, where can people find you?
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Connect with you, learn more about you and listen to your podcast?
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: So, first and foremost, my podcast that's called Anatomy of a Leader with Maria Vorostovsky.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: That's on YouTube.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: That's our primary platform because it's a video Spotify, apple you can find it anywhere.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Linkedin is where I'm most active, so that's a place to reach out to me.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: And one thing we didn't talk about is CVs.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: But I've done a little video on my YouTube channel which is talking about CV tips, so that's probably a useful place to go.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: We should also actually, before you run off, talk about what kind of roles you recruit for, if anyone's listening to this and you know looking for a role.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, looking for e-commerce directors, marketing directors and senior sales development, business development.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: So those tend to be the the key roles so we will put all your links in the show notes.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Do you have a website or anything?
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: as well, it's I'm I'm in the process of reinvention, I'm pivoting and I'm building anatomy of a leader as a brand, and so anatomyofaleadercom it's coming, it's going to be, it's going to be fun I'm working on some really fun ideas for it and it's incorporating hire a leader, inspire a leader and be a leader.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: so it does sound exciting.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Well done, that sounds amazing.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: I was working on a really cool AI designed video to tell the story of what Anatomy of a Leader is.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: It's in the works and it's going to be super fun.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: And very much needed.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I think I can see there being a huge market for that, For I can see there being a huge market that would be interested in that and services that provides.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's an ecosystem, ecosystem of leadership, everything to do with that and, um, yeah, I'm very excited about that.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, we can't wait to see it when it's ready.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, maria, for joining me today.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: It's been a real pleasure to chat with you thank you so much, really fun to talk to you thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.