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Just Transition to a Decarbonised Economy for South Africa (JUST SA): Western Cape Edition prt.1 · TIPS Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: The show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Elise Hutting, and today we are asking why it is important for government officials in the Western Cape to understand the impact of climate change, the imperative to greening our economy, and as well as making it just.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: We are in Cape Town delivering a two-day workshop to capacitate local and provincial government officials to understand the impacts of climate change on the province, and we unpack green economy policy with the aim to turn policy into action.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, for me today, I'm going to welcome my first guest, Karin Shippy, and she will introduce herself and her role.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're so happy to have you and very welcome.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Elise.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So my name is Karin Shippy.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I am Chief Director Environmental Sustainability with the Western Cape Government Department of Environmental Affairs and Development Planning.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's a mouthful, but essentially my portfolio covers the green economy, it covers climate change, biodiversity, coastal management, as well as environmental education.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So quite a wide-ranging space, and I'm also our gender and human rights focal point for the department.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So quite a lot of hats that I carry into the discussions and into this kind of training.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think one of the things that's been really clear for me is the degree to which our policies are enabling.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because South Africa is very well known, in fact, for writing amazing legislation and very supportive and enabling policies and strategies.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for us in the training today, it's been really interesting to start looking at the intention and the target that we've set ourselves as a country and what that really means on the ground.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does it mean when we're doing our day-to-day jobs back in the office with all the paperwork and governance requirements?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do we start making these changes that we collectively as a country have said we're wanting, but we know that they're going to be a real challenge to actually deliver on in the next couple of years?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, I think it's been a reminder that we do have this enabling space.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what is really encouraging to me is that for most of my career, talking about climate change and environmental sustainability has been a little bit of a lone voice at the table.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're finding, especially since the Paris Agreement, is that more and more we're having additional sectors who are coming to the party who are asking the right questions.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: What can they do and how can they change in order to be able to respond to the climate change risk?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we're definitely at a lot more tables and on a lot more of the agendas than we used to be.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this for me is a very encouraging space because it means that that uptake and the yearning for an implementation pathway is actually what people are looking for.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds really exciting.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm yeah, that it must have been a lonely journey for a long, long time.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: But people can feel and see how climate change impacts also affect the bottom line and the risks that's maybe opposing in terms of losing industries and losing money at the end of the day.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, from a provincial government perspective, would you be able to give us some of the insights that you see could be possible risks in achieving a just transition?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: The goals that we've set out, but also maybe some opportunities that you feel after this workshop is something that can be looked at again.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not a very, you know, one-way street, it's quite a complex set of policies and engagements with different stakeholders, but maybe just personally how you feel about this and where you see also a role for greater engagement with the municipality so that we don't leave them behind.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've seen at the training as well, there is some municipalities that's not yet as oriented and goal-driven and prepared for what is to come, but how we can also maybe trickle through to reach those municipalities that's on the more on the peripheral, smaller areas spread across the Western Cape.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think from my perspective, it's very much a case of being able to fundamentally shift the lens that we use to do our work.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is not about unfunded mandates, which is often the accusation that we get from municipalities, is that it's something new and different.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And really what we want to bring home is this needs to be how we do our work.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Moving towards a more distributive space and the inclusive economy that we claim we want to target means that we have to change every project and every decision to be able to have those as tangible outcomes.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be very difficult.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It can be challenging because it's changing the way we deliver services, the way we look at and deliver infrastructure or design our infrastructure.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: The way we design our projects needs to be a lot more inclusive in how we do our business.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think often where we go wrong as government is that we think of it as a new unit or new staff members that are needed for a new item on the agenda.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case, that is absolutely not true.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: What we're wanting to do is we want to change the conversation we're having, and we're wanting to change the way in which people are viewing the jobs that they do right now, whether it's the municipal engineer or whether it's the local economic development team at the municipality.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the struggle that we have is that those people are often very dispersed.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have a lot of capacity, they're often doing multiple tasks in a municipality.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels like a burden when we try and raise these issues.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And something that has stood out for me tremendously, and what I will be taking back with me to the office is this call for communication.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are incredibly lucky.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have champions throughout the government.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: We have people who genuinely want to serve our citizens and are passionate about service delivery.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that if you're outside of government, you don't always feel that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Many people often criticize us for lack of efficiency, et cetera.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what I've seen being on the inside, after having come from the private sector, is that government is made up of individuals.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And many of those people are passionate about service delivery and are really trying to hold things together no matter what the challenge is.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's those people that we need to support, certainly as province, we need to be able to support our municipal colleagues who are feeling very alone and very hard put upon.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And especially when you're also looking at things like whatever gains you've made, you then see some sort of extreme weather event wash that away, quite literally.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very difficult space, and we need to keep people motivated.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: We need to keep them aware of what is happening, the exciting opportunities, and very definitely we need to find ways to enable the resourcing of the amazing projects that are actually being thought about at municipal level.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But wading through the governance and the paperwork to get funding and financing is really difficult.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can make sure we provide a community of practice space for our champions, for climate change champions, for just transition champions, and for sustainability champions, we need to help every official get their job done with all of these lenses in place so that we can start achieving what the National Development Plan, our own constitution, and every policy we've put in place since is looking for.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: That just society, a society that has sufficient, a society where no one goes hungry.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what we're working for.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Karen.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Your ambition and your passion for your work and your dedication is extremely energizing.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: We thank you for your time and for sharing these insights.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we also wish you well on your journey.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to connect again when we are hosting our online training and deepening some of the practitioners' experiences in the topics that we're discussed today.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, all of the best, and thank you again for your time.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, that sounds like quite a big responsibility that sits on your shoulder.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: We would like to know from your experience in the workshop participating over the past two days, is there anything that stood out for you related to the just transition policy, climate change, or green economy content that made you maybe think slightly different about how you approach this on your daily basis at work?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think the reflection on the policies that we have in this country that are supporting or that have the potential to support the green economy and the transitioning process, especially at the local government level, was very enlightening from the perspective of looking at which policies could be supportive and which policies could impede the local government's transition to a greener economy.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that was very enlightening.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also very excited about the practical examples, the practical exercises that bring the voices together, and you really get to understand the bigger landscape because a municipality exists within a province, and a province exists within the national sphere.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And when you think about how to position local government within the green economy and within the transition process, you need to have that holistic.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, meaning, you know, a multi-level kind of reflection and multisectoral when you get into the municipality itself.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like thinking about when you talk about the energy transition, for example, thinking about the role of the electricity department, but also the role of finance department, the role of environmental management, the role of planning, you know, and town planning and all of those areas.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you begin to appreciate the level of complexity and also the role of legislative and legislative frameworks and bylaws, including the provincial legislation as well as the national, and how they could impede or support the just transition and the green economy agenda at the local government level.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm having some kind of ahaha moments here and there, because it's not every day where you get to reflect and to sit and see the landscape from a legislative or even a sectoral approach to how we are going to move ourselves into a cleaner, zero carbon development that we have set ourselves to do.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to ask you then on that note, coming back to the office, when you return, what do you think you will do differently?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And is there any takeaways maybe that will impact your work or your colleagues that could further support local officials working in local municipalities across the country with their just transition risks and also maybe some opportunities and challenges that they are facing?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I literally want to take as the second day of the new financial year for us, and we've got a whole support program for municipalities on the climate change and just transition, is to bring all the departments within the municipality in our trainings.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because usually we focus on people who are dealing with climate change and environment, and not necessarily think about the colleagues that are dealing with electricity or local economic development in our conversations.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: When I look at this training, I'm thinking, I was just saying to my colleague that we need all the municipality, so all the municipal departments to be represented in this because then you are having a holistic conversation, which is what we've been doing, where we've been targeting climate change people.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like talking to ourselves.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And when you talk about the just transition, in its broad sense, it requires all of the departments, transport, planning, you know, finance, and so that it makes sense when we come up with a project that it does not sit in one department.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is actually a whole of municipality project.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So just transition and green economy touches on all departments within the municipality, and we need representation.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we've been running a program, and I think we need to bring them.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: But the second thing that I will do is to look at bringing the political leadership.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: The MMCs that are responsible for this work, you know, meaning across all the sector areas within the municipality, across the board, to raise awareness about these issues.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But again, when we put together projects, we just did a practical example on a project now.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: You need more than one MMC to come and support, because then it's easy when we go to council and we are seeking approvals and support and council resolutions that you not only have an MMC responsible for environment supporting, but you also have got an MMC responsible for finance.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And they understand how this makes sense and how it will assist the municipality on its service delivery, I think, because that's the first priority for them.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: But again, financial sustainability in many instances, I think, is what we'll like to do.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to have a conversation with just SA and tips in terms of how then do we take this to some of the political leadership.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very excited about the possibility already.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love your enthusiasm and thank you for your time today to share with us.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It really does sound like just transition could be the core and the glue for greater inclusion of stakeholders and to bring the projects together that we can actually meet our sustainable development goals.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the opportunity.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: We would like to thank all our guests that participated in this podcast session today.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that wraps up our episode.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: A huge thank you to the guests for sharing their expertise, their time, and attending this training.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you will continue to champion the mandate of greening the economy in a just and equitable way.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And to our listeners, your support means the world.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and connect with us on social media.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, I'm Elise Hutting, your host, and I'm signing off.