Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Full Episode - America Is Unraveling Under Trump + Deepfakes, Bunkers, and Billionaires: Inside The AI Arms Race

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Full Episode - America Is Unraveling Under Trump + Deepfakes, Bunkers, and Billionaires: Inside The AI Arms Race · The Chuck ToddCast

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• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I am going on advil and caffeine. Those of you
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: that are in the sort of I guess the eastern
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: half of the country slash southeastern half. Right, it's sort
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of about a third of the country under this massive
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: winter weather storm. So I've got some good old fashioned
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: back pain. I'm looking forward to. Good thing. I got
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: going to hit the back doctor at some point this week.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Good time for it right good time. It's nothing like
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: doing all that snow shoveling here in Washington. What does
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: that mean? Well, look, there's obviously a ton going on.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I did something I rarely do, did a quick for
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: those of you that do subscribe to the YouTube channel,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: and if you don't, please do, because when we do
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: breaking news updates, we're more likely to do them on
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the YouTube channel before it makes it onto the audio channel.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I am definitely more prolonged form, as many of you know,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: but sometimes moments call for some important reaction and sort
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: of trying to I went up with a video sort
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: of when we knew a lot, but when we didn't
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: know anything everything and the important questions that needed to
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: be asked of the government in there in the ways
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  Speaker 1: they were trying to explain what happened in the death
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: of Alex Pretty in Minneapolis. Which is obviously going to
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  Speaker 1: take up a line and share this monologue, but let
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: me go through a bit of my table of contents
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: for this episode. It's going to be more than Minneapolis
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: that I'm focused on. I think this has been a
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  Speaker 1: month that I'm calling it the Great Unraveling, and I'm
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: going to get to that in a minute, because we're
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: we've I know we've had many moments similar to this
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: in the Trump era, But when you really take the
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: totality of the last thirty days and everything that has
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: happened internationally domestically, we are at a tipping point. And
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think, as many of you know, I'm no alarmist.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: In fact, I'm always looking to not sound in a law,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: to look for ways to not issue issue a sky
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: is falling type proclamation. There are many people that have
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: been preaching sky is falling for years now. Maybe some
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: of them are saying I told you so, but I
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: still don't believe in when you pull the fire alarm,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: you've got to be very very proverballyal That is very
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: very judicious. But we're at a moment and I think
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: anybody who doesn't see this doesn't want to see this.
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  Speaker 1: That's about the only way I can put it. So
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  Speaker 1: we'll get to that. My guest today is a gentleman
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: by the name of Adam Baalolo. He is a documentary filmmaker.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: He has done quite a few. He did one that
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: some of you may have seen about, called Telemarketers. Well,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: it got him an opportunity to do. Essentially, who is
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Sam Altman? Was essentially the goal of his documentary. Well,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: let's just say Sam Altman never wanted to sit down
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: for an interview, so it turned into what the film
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: is called deep Faking Sam Altman. So look, the film
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: itself is fascinating. It is it has an homage to
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Roger and me. For those of you that are fans
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: of the Michael Moore genre, you can feel it in
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: this sort of his quest about the third of them
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: of the documentary is his quest to try to secure
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: us sit down with Sam Altman. But the larger conversation
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: we have and the larger point he attempts to make
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: with the film is sort of where is this going,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Who's in charge, what's the motivation? Where is this headed?
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  Speaker 1: Can you can you trust the same tech companies that
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: gave us social media without regulation to give us artificial
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: intelligence without regulation? And what does that look like? So
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: that's our conversation my podcast time Machine. It is Monday,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: So you know I'm going to go into the time machine.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to give you two words, bloody Sunday.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: That's all I'm going to give you. Because it may
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: invoke a few images in your head, and that's exactly
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: what I hope it does. We will get to that,
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  Speaker 1: and of course I will take some questions, but we're
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: going to begin We're going to begin with What I
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: want to do is take a step back. This has
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: been a horrendous month in the history of the Republic. Obviously,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: we've had worse months. The country that has had its
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: own civil war has had worse months. More people have died.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: There's no not equating that this month is worse in history.
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  Speaker 1: But this is the single worst month. And it's funny
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: about what January seems to bring right January. We thought
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: January twenty twenty one was the low point. Is it
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: possible that January twenty twenty six is a brand new
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: low point than even what we dealt with in and
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: around January sixth. Historians like to say that history moves
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: in decades where nothing happens, and then there are weeks
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: where decades happen. And in some ways, January twenty twenty
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  Speaker 1: six hasn't just been a month. It's been a rupture.
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  Speaker 1: We began this year with one of the most audacious
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  Speaker 1: uses of American hard power in memory, the extraction of
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Maduro from Venezuela presented as a bold reclaiming of
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: US influence in the Western hemisphere. But if that was
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: a sledgehammer meant to uphold order, what we're watching now
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: is the collapse of consent. That order, once rested on
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: the illusion of stability, legal, geopolitical, scientific is unraveling before
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: our eyes, and all of it is happening in real time.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: This is not a time to avert your eyes. We're
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: going to start in Minneapolis this month because federal agents
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: being deployed as part of a massive immigration enforcement surge
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: have now been involved in two fatal shootings in less
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: than three weeks. On January twenty fourth, border patrol agents
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  Speaker 1: shot and killed Alex Pretty, thirty seven year old I
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  Speaker 1: See You nurse and a lawful gun owner, during an
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: immigration operation in South Minneapolis. Federal officials initially said Pretty
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: was armed and approached agents aggressively, claims that are now
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: challenged by multiple videos showing him holding a phone and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: trying to help another protester before being tackled, attacked with
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: pepper spray, beaten, and then shot ten times after he
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: had been subdued, ten times after he had been subdued
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: This was an assassination. There's no other way to this
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  Speaker 1: was intentional, may not have been premeditated, but these were
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: trigger happy officers. They assassinated an American citizen. There's no
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: other way to look at it. And they felt comfortable
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: doing it because nothing happened to any ICE agent after
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: the killing of Renee Good under questionable circumstances, and that
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: decision by the federal government to not uphold the law,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: to not instigate an investigation sent two messages. I'm going
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: to paraphrase my friend Robert George, longtime conservative columnists and thinker.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I first got to know him when he was a
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: columnist at the New York Post. And as he said,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the decision not to do that sent two terrible messages
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: that made a moment like this, the murder of Alex
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  Speaker 1: Pretty by federal agents inevitable. Not opening an investigation, ICE
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: agents were told, you have nothing to worry about. That's
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: the message that was sent after Renee Good. And the
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: second message that was sent to residents of Minneapolis is
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the federal government is not going to uphold the law
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: or your constitutional rights. You're going to have to you
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: might have to take matters into your own hands. So
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the decision by our federal government to not uphold the
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Constitution and the amount of constitutional rights violated on this man,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Alex Pretty, let alone Renee Good, is astonishing. It's fascinating.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, some of my friends on the right
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: are laughing at those on the left defending Alex Pretty's
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Second Amendment rights. But that's the thing with the Constitution.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: You don't pick and choose. It's all there. And so
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: conservatives that are going out there, or people like Todd
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Blanche or Scott Bess boy to Scott bessont, you know,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: we know what he's up to, right, Scott Besson is
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: so desperate for the president listening to him the economy
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: that he defends all this other bullshit in order to
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: stay in Trump's good graces. And so, but he really
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: embarrasses himself. He knows so little about the law or
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the Constitution, and so when he goes out there, he'd
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: be better off just saying that's not my lane, because
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: he makes an absolute fool of himself. And now he
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: wants to start a separist you know, he starts behaving
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: like some sort of Russian propagandist with this Alberta secession
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: movement he's manufacturing. But my goodness, I mean, I'm thankful
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: that Bessont is a rational actor when it comes to
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the economy, the Fed tariffs. But good god, sir, don't
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: make a fool of yourself, because you really are making
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: a fool of yourself. But as I was trying to
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: warn you in the initial aftermath, specific questions had to
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: be asked of DHS because they immediately said he was armed. Well,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: and I said, Minnesota is an open carry state, they
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: have permits. Be careful here, let's make let's find out
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: what his legal status was as a gun owner. Well,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: it turns out he had all the proper paperwork to
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: carry that weapon with him. And it's amusing to me
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: to watch Donald Trump complain and others in his administration.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: They said, who brings a gun to a protest? Have
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: you taken a look at the footage of January six
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So let me put the question right back to them.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Who carries a gun to a protest on January sixth?
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: It's quite a few people that carried guns to that protest,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: quite a few. And I thought the idea of the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Constitution was that it's you know, it's there to serve
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: those you like and those you don't like. The Second
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Amendment isn't just for the right wing and fear and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: this was always a point that my Second Amendment conservative
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: friends were made in the past. You don't know when
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: your government's going to turn on you. Well, there's a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: lot of progressives in Minneapolis finding out what happens when
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the government turns on them, because that's what this looks like.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: A government that's decided that the politics of communities they
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: don't agree with deserve to have their constitutional rights stripped
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: away from them. That's not America. That's fascism. I don't
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: like throwing around the F word very often any of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the efforts because it's one of those things you can't
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: unerring it. I view it like rape. You accuse somebody
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: of being a fascist, you've accused him of being a Nazi.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: There's no going back, there's nothing else you can go to.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: But they're behaving like them, and I don't know what
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: American wants to emulate them. Put it this way, if
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: you're a human being that wants to emulate that, you're
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: not an American trying to claim you're an American. Because
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: an American believes in liberty and believes in freedom. So
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: here we are. We're not in a hypothetical debate about
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: use of force. This is citizens versus their own governments agents.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: And it raises the elementary political question when the federal
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: state treats the lawful exercise of rights as a pretext
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: for lethal force, which is what DHS is claiming here.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: What remains of our social contract? And that's the question
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: pressing itself on the streets of Minneapolis right now, and
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: it's the conscience of the republic. This unraveling, though, moves
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: beyond Minneapolis. And I'm not steppy. That isn't all I
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: have to say about Minneapolis, but I kind of want
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: to get at this theme of this January unraveling of
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: America before our eyes and Donald Trump's leadership that is
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: destroying everything that we thought we knew about our country.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the global fracture. Candidate Davos on the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: global stage press No moment better signifies the erosion of
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the post World War tool rules based order than what
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: folded at Davos last week. As I've mentioned earlier on
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: on earlier episodes, at the World Economic Forum, the Canadian
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Prime Minister Mark Carney delivered a blistering address, declaring that
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: the old rules based international order, centered on predictable alliance,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: collective norms and US leadership, has fractured. In transition, Carney
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: didn't just disagree with US direction. He openly said that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: the Middle Powers must build new frameworks of cooperation because
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the old one no longer protects. Then it's seismic. This
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is our closest ally for over a century. He's publicly
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: reframing global geopolitics and urging peers to hedge against the
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: unpredictability of great power behavior, particularly the United States. He
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: has to live right next door to the United States,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and the diplomatic repercussions have been immediate. President Trump rescinded
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Canada's invitation to join his so called Board of Peace.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: He simultaneously is threatening one hundred percent tariffs on Canadian
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: products after Ottawa made moves on trade with China. The
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: irony theres Donald Trump's response to Canada is to tax
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you in me. He wants to punish Canaday punished by
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: punishing Americans with higher taxes. The rules based order isn't
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: just praying, it's visibly splintering before a global audience. Here
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: at home. The unraveling isn't limited to force as we've
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: seen on the streets of Minneapolis, or geopolitics as we
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: saw at Davos. It's also just in our basic institutions.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: On the digital front, a highly politicized deal to restructure TikTok,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: which has sort of been buried under the obvious headlines,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: a platform used by nearly one hundred and fifty million
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Americans was negotiated in ways that appear defined less by
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: national security imperatives and more by who the investors were
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: politically aligned with. The algorithm remains under byte Dance control,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: which means it's under control of the Chinese Communist Party,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: so I don't know what we've accomplished there, and the
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: negotiating entity retained significant ownership, so I don't know how
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: this still doesn't violate federal law. Remember they passed a
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: law about TikTok, so this looks less like securing data
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: from foreign influence and more like media alignment because of
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: who the American buyers are and who will control this algorithm.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: And then there's in public health, an arena that for
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: generations was an intellectual and moral high ground, less immune
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: from politics and just about every other institution that we have,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: and we're witnessing something remarkable, scientific consensus being openly debated,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: as if there were just another opinion. A senior voice
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: from the CDC's advisory pair has publicly questioned whether the
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: polio vaccine should be mandatory at a time when measles
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: cases are spiking in more than a dozen states, numbers
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: that we haven't seen in decades. Make America measles again.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: It's not a data glitch. This is institutional hesitancy in
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the face of a resurgence. If foundational public health successes
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: are subject to doubt, then what is it. This is
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the ultimate gas lighting of American It's going to kill Americans,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: just kill them. And now we're four days away from
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: a government shutdown, and believe you me, this government is
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: shutting down. There is zero trust among Democrats with any
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: of the Trump administration right now. There is no eight
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: or nine moderate Democrats ready to play ball. Not after
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the murder of two American citizens in Minneapolis, feel pretty
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: comfortable doing this. President's approval ratings are at historic lows
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: for him, and we're just in this. You know, he's
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: literally stumbling us into a potential war if we're not
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: careful screwing up the NATO alliance making America let's secure.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: So I don't know how you can you can. The
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: only power democrats have is the power of the person
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and what remains of the legislative branch. So I don't
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: know how they can be a credible opposition party if
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: they acquiesce at this point. So we're going to get
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a government shut down. This episode of the Chuck Podcast
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  Speaker 1: say it's as if Quinn sort of says, hey, look
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• 21:22
  Speaker 1: slash chuck. So the bottom line is this month feels
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: different because it is different. It's the sound of one
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: hundred years of consensus, diplomatic, legal, and scientific hitting the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: floor and shattering, just shattering. So let's go back to Minnesota.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: I'm going to walk through everything that happened because the
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: details matter here so much. So it's the second time
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: in a single month that a civilian has been killed
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: by federal agents in Minneapolis during immigration enforcement operations. Two deaths. Two.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: We're not sure we're ever going to be a real investigations,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: but we need him and a growing sense among state
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: local officials that they have to be spectators and events
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: unfolding in their own communities. This is not a policing
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: question anymore. This is a constitutional one. Alex Pretty was
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: a thirty seven year old ice you nurse. He worked
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: with veterans, He lived in Minnesota. He legally owned a
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: firearm and under Minnesota law, had the right to carry it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: And given the fact that American citizens in Minneapolis had
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: been gunned down by ice, how should he had have
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: been irresponsible not to protect himself. Federal officials say he
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: was armed a fact. Did he brandish his weapon? They
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: have no evidence of it, and there's no video showing
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: that he did. They claimed that he posed a threat
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: during a confrontation with border patrol agents. But in Minnesota,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: being armed is not the crime. It's simply a status,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: one regulated by permits in training, not suspicion. It's already
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: a violin of his Second Amendment rights. And then here's
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: where the legal line matters. There is a vast legal
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: canyon between being armed and brandishing. One is lawful, the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: other is a crime. And unless that canyon is crossed
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: clearly and demonstrably, the use of lethal force isn't just questionable,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: it's indefensible. And remember, this man was shot ten times
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: after he was subdued. They killed him in cold blood. God,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I can't believe the lack of empathy by our elected officials.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: This shouldn't have happened. I mean, you can't even perfect.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: These folks in charge, can't even lament this man's death.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: The videos tell everything, and boy, thank goodness their citizen
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: video here, Because you can't trust your government right now.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I can't believe him saying those words. Many of you
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: know me, that know me a long time. No, I'm
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: an institutionalist. Ultimately, I do think most bureaucrats are trying
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: to do the right thing. They sometimes are misled, but
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: they try to do the right thing. So I mostly
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: believe in our institutions they want to do the right thing.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: But leadership of these institutions can pervert things. And right
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: now we're in a perverted state of mind because multiple
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: bystandard videos up here to show Preddie just simply holding
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: a phone, not a weapon, as you tried to intervene
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: and record what was happening. Again, a first Amendment right,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Whether that ultimately holds up under investigation is precisely the point,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: because right now Minnesota officials haven't even been fully inside
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: that investigation. Anybody not calling for a thorough and independent
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: investigation does not want to know the results of said investigation.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And anybody that thinks DHS or the FBI can be
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: trusted with this investigation needs to get their head examined,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: because Cash, Battel and Christy Nome have zero credibility outside
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of the thirty to thirty five percent of the country
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: that wants this behavior and is perfectly happy with this
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: kind of behavior, or a free country. People can want
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: this all they want. I'm sorry, thirty five percent of
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: our country sees the constitutional as constitution is sort of
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: just an advice column So here's why the changes the story.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Local police chiefs, the governor's state investigators. They're being locked
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: out of real time access to evidence in the achilling
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: of their own citizens twice. If the federal government reserves
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the right to deploy agents in two states use lethal force,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: and then control the investigative process entirely, the consent that
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: underpins federalism collapses completely. This is a total and complete
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: violation of the tenth Amendment. It's amazing one killing how
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: many different I mean, there's a reason are the first
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: ten amendments are called the Bill of Rights, and these
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: federal agents violated half of them in that one incident
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: in less than thirty seconds. So you don't need to
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: decide whether the agents acted lawfully to understand this problem.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: If they did act lawfully, transparency would only strengthen the case.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: If they didn't, secrecy will compound the damage I'm reporting.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I'll let you decide. Now here's the question you guys
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: should set with. If lawful behavior can be retroactively reframed
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: as threatening, and if local, small d democratic institutions have
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: no meaningful role in accountability, then rights only exist on paper,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: not in practice, and once citizens believe that the social
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: contract doesn't break all it once, it erodes quietly locally
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: until trust is completely gone. Soda isn't an outliner, it's
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: a warning flare. Now let's widen the lens, because what's
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: happening domestically is being mirrored globally. Last week at Davos,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: something happened that would have been almost unthinkable a decade ago.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: The Prime Minister of Canada publicly questioned the viability of
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: American leadership, not as a rival, but as an ally.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: And when allies stop speaking in euphemisms, it means something
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is fundamentally shifted. To Mark Carney's credit, he didn't rant.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: You might say I'm ranting a little bit, but he
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: didn't posture. He did something far more consequential. He's simply
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: reframed the global order. He is reacting to the reality
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: on the ground, not some sort of nostalgic belief in
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: the past. He called the so called rules based international
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: system of fiction, not because rules don't matter, but because
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the system enforcing them no longer behaves predictably. System, in
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: this case is doing a lot of work that Donald
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Trump led America. He argued that Middle Powers countries like Canada, Australia,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: parts of Europe can no longer assume that alignment with
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the United States guarantees stability or protection. Instead, they need
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: independent frameworks, redundant alliances, and a lot of hedging strategies.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: It's not anti Americanism at this point. It's simply Mark Carney,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: central banker doing a little risk management. It's Canada, folks.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: This is like our brother or sister deciding the family
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: union doesn't work anymore. It's not France or Turkey. This
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: isn't a country flirting with autonomy. Canada has been the
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: most reliable partner in the American system for a century, economically, militarily, culturally.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: When Canada stops organizing its foreign policy around Washington, that's
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: not smolic, it's tectonic. This is an earthquip, folks, And
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: the response from Washington matters just as much. So, instead
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: of reassurance, the reaction was sort of irrational retaliation. I
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: say irrational because it makes no sense and it also
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: violates multiple trade agreements. But rescinded invitations, tariff threats, public
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: slights confirms the very concern Carni raised that alliances are
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: now transactional, conditional, and personal In some ways, this is
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump trying to overturn the American the entire American
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: order on how America uses its power. So when allies
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: stop performing the rituals of deference, they're not rebelling, They're
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: simply adapting. And that's what Canada's doing. This post war
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: order wasn't held together by dominance alone. It was held
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: together by trust. It was held together by restraint, predictability,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and shared rules and mutual respect, not transactional respect. Once
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: that trust goes, power doesn't disappear, but it does fragment,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and fragmentation is the defining condition of the world we're entering.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: A fragmented world is a more dangerous one, and Donald
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Trump has made the world more dangerous. This unraveling that
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I'm focused on today, that we're talking about, isn't just
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: about force or alliances. It's also about authority who we
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: trust to tell us what's real, what's safe, and what matters.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: And nowhere has that been more obvious right now than
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: in public health and in media. Ken All of this
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: has been happening in the month of January. So let's
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: start with the CDC and the start of this year.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: We are having serious discussions inside elite public health circles
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: about whether the polio vaccine should be mandatory. What we
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: don't like that we nearly eradicated polio, so let's bring
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: it back. Is that what make America great again means
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: there's no science has changed on polio, mind you, just
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the politics around trust have changed. At the same time,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: measles cases are climbing across more than a dozen states.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Diseases we had effectively contained are resurfacing, not because we
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: lack tools, but because institutions are hesitating to defend their
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: own successes. Actually it's not even and it's hesitating to
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: defend successes. You now have people in charge of public
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: health that are at war with those successes. There are
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: at war with the troop, Robert F. Kennedy juniors, at
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: war with the truth, and he is appointed a bunch
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: of people who are making us all more vulnerable to
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: diseases that we had nearly eradicated. So when institutions stop
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: asserting settled science with confidence, skepticism, of course fills the vacuum.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And once public health becomes negotiable, the cost is not
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: there radical it's biological. Welcome to Darwinism now, we layer
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: in media power. The administration has approved a TikTok restructuring
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that leaves algorithmic control largely intact, keeps a significant bite
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: dance steak i e. The Chinese Communist Party influence on
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: eighteen to thirty year olds, and shifts operational authority towards
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: politically aligned domestic investors, people that just want the algorithm
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: to do Donald Trump's bidding. That is not what the
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: US Congress was trying to do with TikTok. That is
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: not a clean national security firewall. This is simply a
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: redistribution of influence. The most powerful content distribution system in
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: American life, one that shapes attention, culture, and political discourse,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: particularly for those under the age of thirty five, is
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: now beingized reorganized not around independence or liberation, but alignment.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: So when scientific authority weakens and media infrastructures become politically entangled,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: truth loses its referee. And when truth loses its referee,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: disputes aren't settled by evidence, they're settled by power. Suddenly,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the only amendment that's going to matter a lot might
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: be the Second Amendment. For too many people. That's the
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: unraveling in its final form, not chaos, but contestation everywhere
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: all the time. So I've been calling this the Great Unraveling,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: not because everything is collapsing all at once, but because
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the threads that once held things together are slipping quietly
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: in plain sight. In Minnesota, it's the idea that force
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: can replace consent. In Canada, it's the assumption that American
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: leadership is predictable. In our institutions, it's the belief that
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: science and truth can stand on their own without being defended.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: History never announces these turning points. Right street simply leaves
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: warning lights, and right now there are a lot of
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: warning lights blinking at once. Here's the part that matters most. Though.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Unraveling isn't destiny. It's a process, and processes don't reverse themselves.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Every era that thought its order was permanent eventually learned
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. The world built after World War Two worked
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: not because it was flawless, but because people believed it
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: was worth standing up for. Belief was the glue. And
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump has spent the last ten years questioning the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: belief of American power and superiority over the last seventy years,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: and he's unfortunately succeeding, and it's making us all more poorer, weaker,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: and more vulnerable, because when belief weakens, responsibility doesn't shift
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: to someone else, it shifts to all of us. Doesn't
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: mean we all have to believe the same thing, and
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean everyone has to do the same thing.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: But there is nobody else you can't hope. Oh, maybe
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Senate Republicans, Maybe Mitch McConnell will realize how wrong he
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: was about not convicting Donald Trump, the single biggest mistake
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: any senator has made in over one hundred years in
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: this country. Considering the damage we're facing this month. Boy,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: that decision was such a horrible decision. I assume he
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: loses sleep at night. But the point is, you cannot
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: rely on other people to do the right thing. You
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: have to do it. For some of you. It just
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: simply means vote for others. It's protesting. Speaking up matters,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Flooding your elected representatives with calls to action matters, refusing
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: to normalize what feels wrong matters. This is not just
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: some period. We're trying to survive, although that is what
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: world trying to do here, right, We are trying to survive,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: but we can't lose our country, and we're losing our country.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I don't say it lightly. I don't say it for
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: dramatic effect. It's a fact we're losing our country. We
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: don't trust each other. FBI comes to my door right now,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe a single thing they had to say.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: IRS comes to my door right now. I wouldn't believe
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: a single thing they had to say. Department of Justice.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I know I'm not alone. I can't believe I'm saying that.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: I never thought that under any other administration. I didn't
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: think that under the first Trump administration. But you can't
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: trust anything they say about public health. They can't trust
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: anything they say out of DHS about transparency and what
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: their law enforcement agencies are doing. We can't trust anything
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the president. I mean, I got the President just lies
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: just as easily as he breathes in all of his speeches,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: proclamations and are are true. And you cannot believe anything
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: out of this government. What doesn't work anymore sitting out
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: and assuming someone else is going to fix it. The
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: media has got to do something, Republicans got to do something.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Everybody has to do their part, because when enough people
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: choose inaction, irresponsible power fills the vacuum, and once that happens,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: rebuilding trust will get even harder. The order we inherit
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: it is changing. The question is whether we're willing to
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: stand up for what comes next before standing up becomes impossible.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: All Right, I'm gonna sneak in a break and when
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: we come back, another brave new world that we're entering
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: the world of artificial intelligence. And my conversation with the
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: documentarian who's just out with a new documentary which you
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: can see right now if you live in the Washington,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: DC area. I believe it's at the Tyson's Corner in
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: the Tyson's Corner area. The movie's called Deep Baking, Sam Altman.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I'll snak at a break. My conversation about that documentary is next.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in
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  Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow, myself
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold. My dad had
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  Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: but it was important at the time and It's why
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,
• 38:39
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• 39:42
  Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about it,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: especially if you've got a growing family. Well, many of
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: you know I have said that I think the twenty
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: twenty eight President's going that one of the leading issues
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: is going to be fear of AI displaced in general
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: sort of. I think for the most part, there is
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: more of a negative or concern or anxiety about AI
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: at this point. We have a variety of reasons for that.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: For some people it's just hitting them in the pocket books.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: That's what we're feeling in Northern Virginia. Thanks to these
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: AI power data centers, you've got the fear of AI displacement.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: The invention of Sora, I think made social media, which
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: was already assessible, somehow a more tox successful. And you
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: can't believe now anything you see. So the idea of
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: fearing AI is something that is understandable, and we're probably
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: collectively all maybe we've all watched one too many dystopian
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: sci fi thrillers, But it is in that spirit that
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by a new documentary I watched, and the
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: documentarian is here now, and many of you know I'm
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: a huge proponent of documentaries in general. This is a
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: feature length documentary. It's called Deep Faking Sam Altman, And
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: in some ways it's a it's a diary, and I'm
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: we're going to find out whether this was ever the
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: original intent or not. But it's a diary of the
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: filmmaker Adam Balalaalowe, who's joining me now of his journey
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: to try to interview the real Sam Altman of Chat
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: of Open AI and Chat GPT fame to just you know,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: I think my guess is Adam wanted to tackle some
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: of these concerns and fears and anxieties that so many
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: of us have on this and and Sam Altman is,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: let's just say, proved elusive. I think Michael Moore would
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: be very proud of this movie. Adam, welcome to the podcast.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Thanks. I appreciate that. And I've been trying to get
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Michael Moore's attention, and you know, I still I have
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: not been able to want to I want him, you know,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: obviously if you look at the poster too, it's a
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: reference to Roger and me and this. Yeah, this very
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: early on in the process, I realized, like this is
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: like a weird update on Roger and me in a way.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Well, and you know it's funny with you know, there's
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: this visual I have now of all of these tech titans,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: that is that they're all like Zuckerberg with this Hawaii
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Hawaii bunker, right, that they're all preparing realizing that the
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: pitchforks are coming for them, so they're going to protect themselves.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: So I get it right the same way that I
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: think what inspired Michael Moore at the time to go
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: find the chairman of General Motors, Hey, you've destroyed my town.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Can I talk about it with you? Will you please
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: talk to me? Type of mindset? And and so I
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: want to start there because Adam, I don't. I don't
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: feel like you entered into this subject matter assuming the
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: worst about AI. Am I right?
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: No, you're right. I've been a fan of AI since
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I was a little kid, you know, going dating back
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: to the Terminator two era. I saw that movie when
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: I was in second grade. It's part of the reason
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: why I became a filmmaker. It was one of my
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: favorite films of all time. And I remember early on
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: going to the mall and going to the arcade and
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: like those like those early virtual reality headsets you put on.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: They cost like two dollars to like play this rudimentary
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: virtual reality game. I've always been super interested in technology,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: and when chat GPT first came out, I was one
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: of the first people to start using it. I think
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: they just found it to be fascinating. So going into this,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I definitely had I wouldn't say a rosy view of AI,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: but I had a positive view of AI. And now
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I'm just scared to death.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: So I want to start with something here, which is
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: why we call it AI. And I wonder if you know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think. I try really hard to say it's
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: just it's it's just a probability sample, and I try
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: to tell myself that I'm just this is just a
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: probability sample. This is a ninety nine point five percent
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: probability that the next word is going to be blah
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: right like, and that it's not a real person. That's
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: all this is is a probability. Do you think if
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: we called it, you know, anything other than artificial intelligence, right,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: and if it had just a more benign name or
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: something that doesn't feel humanish, we would have this this fear.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Probably not. I mean, I think you're right. I think
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: the idea that that were the the the phrase artificial intelligence,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I think is is a is A is a great?
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: It's too perfect words together. It's great branding. Whoever, whoever
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: came up with.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: It, I guess it is. But I you know, let
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: me ask you this. Do you like to eat artificial beef,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: artificial chicken, artificial vegetables?
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I absolutely don't, but my vegetarian mom does.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Well, the artificial beef, sure, but not the artificial what
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: I eat artificial vegetables?
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Right, No, definitely not artificial vegetables. But yeah, I see,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: I see you're getting that. I mean, I mean, no,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's weird. I mean in that to that,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: to that extent, you know, maybe maybe it shouldn't be
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: as popular it is, given the fact that it's like
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: artificial intelligence. What does that mean exactly? That just means
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: like a lesser form of intelligence.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Right, which is why it's interesting to me that we
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: we we assume it's superior.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't think everybody assumes it's superior.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think I think that's fair. Go back
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: to the premise. So you had a successful documentary, which
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: means that you actually people threw said, hey, we'll throw
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: some money at you if you can do this topic.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Was that how this worked going there or was it
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: more of you wanted to do AI and you found
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: interest in the topic.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: So it was a little bit of both. I think
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: that around the time that I started thinking about the documentary,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: I was on the picket lines because I'm in the
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: writer's Guild and I was I was picketing around Netflix.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: And part of the reason that we were picketing was
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: because of AI concerns, right, you know, we were worried
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: that the studios were going to start using chat, GPT
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: and other llms to create to write screenplays and basically
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: just access out of the conversation entirely, and so we
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: were trying to get some guardrails around that, and that
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: that was a big, big part of the reason for
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: this strike. And so AI was obviously like hugely on
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: my mind, and I wanted I wanted answers to a
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: couple of different different questions. I mean, firstly, like, how's
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: this going to affect my children's future. My son, you know,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: he has been into coding since he was a little kid.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: He was he even went to this after school program
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: called Code ninjas they have in some in some cities
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: where basically they you know, kids who are interested in coding,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: they teach them. And he was learning how to codet roadblocks,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: games and stuff like that. And how do I explain
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: to him? I wanted to ask Sam Altman to like,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: what do I say to my son that he's not
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: going to have be able to have a job coding
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: when he grows up, because you won't.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Adam, We just we spent the last thirty years saying, hey,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: we've got to change our education system so that it
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: prepares folks for the jobs of the twenty first century.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: So it became STEM STEM sim right, you know, science, technologlogy,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: education and all that. Right, it was all about STEM.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: And now, I mean, you know your son is young
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: enough that there's you might be able to pivot in.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: But this is a useless skill in this day and age.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And yet ten years ago it was seen as the
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: gold you know, the skill to have the number one
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: skill to havelf that you wanted to be able to
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: say you did. So I'm with you. This is a
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: scary time for parents because how do you know if
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: you're preparing your kid for their adulthood and the speed
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: of technological change is such that we don't know how
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: to do it. And this is why I think we're
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: all sort of confused at even what kind of public
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: education system we need to have.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, so that was one of the first things
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to ask Sam Almon, and obviously one
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: of the inspirations for this Nie and embarking on this documentary.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I talked to a few different whistleblowers from Open AI,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: people who are on the inside, couple who you see
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: in the film, couple who did not want to be
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: in the film, but I still talk to off the record.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: They all told me that by the time my son
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: was eighteen, any job that could be done on a
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: computer would be done by AI. A human would no
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: longer have that job. So so to answer your question,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: like suddenly education for stuff like plumbing and manual labor
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: type of jobs is seeming a lot more, you know, valuable.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: They why get these tech bros figure out how to
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: how to improve leaky faucets?
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: That's the thing is, like, I mean, they will, we
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: will at some point, but robots are going to be
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: the kind of last thing to happen because they're the hardest.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: They're they're the most difficult thing to create and have
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: it actually work. So anything anything done on a computer, though,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: it's like potentially within the next three years even will
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: that job will be gone. That job will be done
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: by AI entirely.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: I imagine another question you'd want to do to ask
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: sam As is how do you how are we supposed
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: to teach critical thinking if you just have somebody else
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: do the thinking for you.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, maybe we aren't teaching critical thinking in
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: the future, But then how does that change our brains?
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: How does that change society? That's scary to think about,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: but these are things that, like, I think we have
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: to think about right now.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Man, the president, my son's at attending SMU and he
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: used to be the president, the president of the university
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: used to be the president at UT Austin. And here's
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: theory of the case that he actually thinks that. You know,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: just as most universities had been shifting away from liberal
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: arts educations, liberal arts majors, like remember you know, there
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: was this you know, firestorm about five years ago when
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: you had multiple universities saying there's no longer going to
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: be an English department. There's no longer in the going
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: to be majors in that. And now actually he thinks
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: just the opposite, that all of these scides and all
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: this stem that they thought they had to have in
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: order to entice the next generation a student that actually
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: university and college education will be the classics again, because
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: actually it's the root education that people are going to
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: need in order to know how to prompt your artificial
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: intelligence machine.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: That definitely assumes a world where humans are still in
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: the equation, you know, because people say, like, well, what
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: you can do right now? You know, the the best
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: way to prepare for them is to prepare for the
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: fact that that it's not going to be AI taking
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: over your job. It's going to be a human who
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: really knows how to use AI well taking over your job.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: That's one philosophy. I don't know if that's necessarily true,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: that assumes that humans will still be in the equation
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: in the future. I can't. I can't predict or promise
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: that's even true.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I think the one thing I just think that as
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: we're as a species, we're not going to allow ourselves
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: to be replaced. Then the question is how do we
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: express that sentiment? You know? At one point, do we
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: feel as if it's actually coming and we have to
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: fight back, right and and but that's how I have optimism.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, we're we're a clever species. We have
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: figured out how to survive a lot in order to
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: to to survive on this planet. I can't imagine we're
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: going to let robots replace this.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think. I don't think we're going
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: to let it happen, but it we may not have
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: a choice, I think. But that's part of the You
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: know that there's a few schools of thought on this, right, Like,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: there's one school of thought is that AI will completely
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: wipe us off the face of the earth. And it
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: won't do it for nefarious reasons, right, It'll do it because,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: for example, logical you program it to say, like, hey,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: rid the world of pollution. Well, what's the first thing
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: that we're the worst?
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Right? Where the number one cause of pollution?
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: You're the polluter. So the first thing logically would be
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: destroy all humans. And you know what it would be,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: right because we we we don't take care of this,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: this this earth, so destroy us this.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Did you ever watch the sci fi series that seth
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: MacFarland did called the Orville.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: No, no, I haven't.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: He dabbles in this. It's a few years old, but
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: they there's one, you know, it's sort of a Star
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Trek homage, right, And one of the species he creates
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: is a planet that was taken over by bots for
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: what you just described.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's completely logical. But there is another school of
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: thought that AI will just keep us around because it
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: will find some type of use for us. Then there's
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: a third school of thought where all those are ridiculous,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: and that AI actually has no motivation to destroy us, Like,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: there's no underlying motivation there, So why would it do that?
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: And anybody who thinks that it would is just really
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: just like a doomsayer.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Well, in some ways it's the argument over gun regulation.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Are guns good or bad? Or the people that use
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: guns good or bad? Right? Is AI good or bad?
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Or is it a neutral entity? And it's who's using
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: the AI that can use it for good or use
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: it for bad?
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Right? Speaking of guns, did you know that Sam Alman
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: has a he he has a collection of assault rifles.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: He's a gun nut. He has this giant collection of
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: assault rifles and grenades and all kinds of crazy stuff
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: in his house, one of his houses in Big sur
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: and he's like a prepper, he's a doomsday press. I
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: thought that was a really interesting fact.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny wealth and doomsday prepping seems
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: to go hand in hand, right, because I guess you,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: if you have the means right, you do it. It
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: does seem as if it is wealth. I don't I
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: wonder what drives it. It's they have so much money
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: you want to be around to use it. I don't
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: know what it is, but I don't mean to stereotype,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: but I feel like that goes you hear about this, right,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: the wealthy people are the ones building the shelters. Or
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: what we saw was Zuckerberg's compound and a HI and
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: things like that.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a few years back. I was researching
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: for a potential documentary on the Sea Stetter movement, and
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: you know, it's these it's these this tech elite who
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: want to actually move off to like islands, man made
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: islands in the ocean, like in the middle of the
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: ocean where there's no specific that you know, national nation,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: no nation controls, so that they can create their own
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: sort of islands and unto themselves and do whatever they
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: want to do. I guess it's similar to Musk, like
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: going you know, going to Mars, right. But yeah, I
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: think there's also a certain paranoia to these people, like
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: they're deeply paranoid individuals.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I had a source of mind back in the Obama
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: era who after they went to Silicon Valley, came back
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: and I said, so, what's the difference between Washington and
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Silicon Valley? He says, I thought Washington lived in a bubble,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: he said, the world of Silicon Valley. And at the time,
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: he said, it seemed like half of Silicon Valley was
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: obsessed with living forever, and that this wasn't a small
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: percentage that it was literally because they had you know,
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: perhaps it was because they they have more money than lifespan, right,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: And what's the one thing that's the hardest to buy
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: is time, And so there was this obsession. He said,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: if America understood the psyche of Silicon Valley, they wouldn't
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: buy any more electronics. It would scare the be Jesus
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: out of them.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if that's necessarily true.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, let's go back to the premise. When
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: did you start filming in a way that you knew
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: this was going to be the premise of the film
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: and that you were going to have to that the
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: journey to get Sam Altman was actually going to be
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: the documentary versus did you start thinking, well, let's put
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: this on tape in case of emergency. Was it always
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: in case of emergency or did you know pretty quick
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Altman's never sitting down with me. Maybe I'll get him
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: at the very end because of you know, a Cara
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Swisher X or something like that, but ultimately it's probably
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: not going to happen. Well, when did you know in
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: your brain what you were doing was more than just, uh,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: you know, just putting something in the in on tape
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: just in case.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I really thought this was going to be a layup
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: getting an interview with him. I didn't think it was
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: going to be that difficult. I guess maybe I was
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: naive in that. But I've but I've I've gotten some
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: pretty difficult interview I mean, I interviewed Julianasange in the
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: in the in the embassy, and and and.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Of everybody of everybody, right.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: So I've gotten some I've gotten some really hard interviews
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: because I never give up, and so I thought this
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: would be an easy one. I had, we had friends
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: in common, right, like I had a cell phone number,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: like I didn't think there and then coming off of
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: the success of of of my series Telemarketers, I thought
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: that this, this would be a perfect opportunity. And strangely,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: it just didn't happen. It never happened. I still haven't
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: even heard from him, like even even.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Even have you heard from people who've heard from him. No, yeah,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: not even a secondhand.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Not even a second hand, like you know, not even.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: His lawyer suing you to not do this, Like not
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: even not even a legal outreach, huh.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Not a lawyer, not a publicist, not nobody, absolutely no
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: one connected to him in any way, shape or form.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: I expect though I will at some point, Like this
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: movie just came out right and in theaters in New
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: York last week, and then it'll be in DC this weekend,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: so as it as it starts to roll out nationwide
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: and gain more steam, I feel like at some point
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: he's gonna have to say something, he's gonna have to
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: comment on it. We actually called him, We called his
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: cell phone during the Q and A on Saturday at
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: the at the at the Quad in New York. Me
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: and Benny Safty called called his cell phone and left
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: a message, so he got them. He got the message
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: that the movie is premiering, and I invited him to
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: the screening in LA so we'll see. I don't think
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: he's going to show.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: What what's interesting here and what to me is different
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: from Roger and Me? Is that again? I go back to, Look,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I think you're definitely a skeptic coming into this, but
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you I don't feel like you have a score to settle,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Like did you have any history? I mean, am I
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: missing something here? I'm just trying to figure out how
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: what made you so threatening? Right?
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: That's the key difference I think, you know, with Roger
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: and Me, Michael Moore had a score to settle in
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: terms of like him and him and his friends were
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: all fired, right, and.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: In a weird I could see the PR team going,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: oh man, just no, there's no good that comes from that.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Like I could picture the core way corporate communications work,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: the way legal counsels work, you know, you know, even
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: if Roger Smith wanted to have talking no no, no, right,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: don't do it like this a company that's desperate to
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: say we're not here to know, we're not scary, We're
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: we're okay. He has done some semi revealing interviews already,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: so it was a strange. It's just strange to me
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: that you struggled with this.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for me, it was very different from from
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Michael Moore. And and to your point, it seems like
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: he would want to he would want to answer questions like, hey,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: what how will this affect my son when he grows up? Hey,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: how how will this affect me as as a filmmaker?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: And you have this like interest in Hollywood all of
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: a sudden, like he was sending his people to his
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: minions down from Sora to meet with a lot of
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: my filmmaking friends and try to court them right. And
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of my director friends were like having these
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: like lunch meetings with Sora where they were like, oh,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: we want you to use our technology, you know, And
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: of course everybody was like, you know, screw your technology,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Like we want nothing to do with this with his technology.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: But it does seem odd like what And I always wondered,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: like what does he have to hide? I don't think
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: any of the interviews he did were because I've seen
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: pretty much all of them. I don't think any of
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: them were very revealing at all. I don't think he
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: answers questions from the heart. I think everything is completely
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: pr manipulated and I and I guarantee you he already
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: has an answer for the question about my movie, like
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: he's already been trained on what to say about that.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: The other funny thing is we have this friend in
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: common who gave me a cell phone number who will
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: remain nameless, told me he has AI read all his
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: emails and text messages and summarize them back to him.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: He never he doesn't actually read any of them.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Well, that's just a strange, you know. And I think
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: this gets back to who's building these technologies and what
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: is their life experience and how many you know. One
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: of my favorite Kerash swisherisms where she gets she can
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: be a little snarky shockingly and I say this with love,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: she's a good friend, is when she sort of implied,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: you know, Mark Zuckerberg, you know, nineteen year old at
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Harvard didn't know how to talk to girls in person,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: so he came up with a hack to try to
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: get a date. YadA, YadA, YadA. We had Facebook, you know,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: and so many of these sort of tech developments have
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: come to freuituition based on, you know, a desire. Hey,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: these were lonely kids, so they wanted to create artificial friends,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: right like, rather than thinking how does the average person
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: live life? And you often wonder with some of these
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: tech bros, are are they fixing problems that were more
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: unique because they were their problems, not are not society's problems?
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: Right? I mean, I think I think that's a that
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: that's a minority of them. Sadly, I think most of
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: them are just trying to get rich. And I've I've
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: talked to plenty of them who were or even people
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: who worked for certain tech titans, who were just working
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: on products that they knew had no reason to even
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: exist in the world other than to just get some
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: get a few people rich.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean social media. I think the initial idea
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: of social media wasn't about money making, and then it
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: became a perverted money making operation, and obviously it's now
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: the mess that it is today.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: Right social media. You know, I've had these discussions recently,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: similar discussions about AI that that that we have about
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: social media. There was a woman who came to one
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: of my screenings who runs an organization. I wish I
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: could remember the name now, but it's it's like sort
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: of like mothers, like Mother's against drunk driving, but it's
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: like mothers against social media.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no, it's called Mama. I interviewed her
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: Mothers against Media Addiction. I think she calls it, Yes,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: So she came to my screening, loved the film, lovely
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: person and I and I and I I so I
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: respect what her mission I have. I have a son
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: and and you know, I want the best for him.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: But I also I'm wary about wholesale like, uh, wiping
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: these these technologies off the face of the earth, because
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: then I'm also always reminded of social media, and I'm
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: always reminded of the Arab Spring, and we quickly forget that, Yes,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: these things can cause problems and trauma on you know,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: privileged kids in the first world, but they can also
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: completely change like the entire trajectory of uh a country overseas.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: And so it's it's.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: About But what was the real lesson of the Arab
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: Spring is that totalitarian countries realized, oh, screw this, We're
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: going to weaponize it. And so now in some cases
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: I take your point there, and I think, look, we
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: all bought. I bought the I bought the good of
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: the Arab spring. At the time, you thought, okay, this
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: is what it was about. This really is democratizing the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: ability to speak out, democratizing all of this, and then
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: governments figured out how to weaponize it, and then we
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: got what the world we live in right now, you know,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: arguably between twenty sixteen and today.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Sure. So in regards to AI, this is another thing
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: that I think I spoke about recently at a Q
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: and A was I read this article about this young
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: female documentary filmmaker in China who was using AI to
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: tell her stories about the government and about life there
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: that she would never be able to tell without because
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: for various reasons, obviously because she'd be arrested or because
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: of the government, but also because she didn't have the
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: resources a camera or anything to actually film. So there
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: will be I think benefits. There will be interesting things
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: that come out of this. And again I'm I'm all
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: for for for strong regulation, but I'm not for just
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: like wholesale discounting of technology, and so it's it was
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: an interesting It was interesting talking to her about AI,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: and I feel like her viewpoint on AI was very
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: much like, we need to shut this effing thing down completely.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: And a few people have come to me with that
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: at Q and A's and been a little bit upset
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: with me because I'm not that person. I'm not saying that.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: How would we just erase the technology? I just don't
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: buy When have we ever done that in the history
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: of civilization?
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: Right? I mean it's it's largely impossible.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: Let's let's blow up the Gutenberg, you know, let's get
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: rid of the printing press. Yeah, this is causing educating
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: too many people, the serfs what too many are spreading
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: too many ideas.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: So on the flip side, the reason sam Almon has
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: become so powerful is the is the the one of
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: the argument, and I'm now I'm going to argue against myself. Right.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: One of his things is this fear based tactic where
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: he came to d C and he met with all
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: the generals, and he met with all he met with
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: all the weapons people, and he said, look, if China
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: beats us at this, we're dead. So he put the
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: fear of God and all these people that we in
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: DC that we need to start spending money, money, money, money,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: because we have to beat China, because it's like some
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: crazy arms race that like.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Well, how do you why did we get why did
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: we go to the moon?
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, did we go to the moon? It's just kidding,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, exactly, it was to beat the Soviets.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: If there's no Cold War, we don't go to the moon.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's why Altman's so smart too, because he
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: completely sees that, and he's using that playbook now to
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: make himself incredibly rich. You know, Opening Eye was a
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: non profit when I started this film. Halfway through production.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Overnight he created he turned it into a for profit
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: company and made himself what was it, seven or nine
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: billion dollars overnight? Right, Like he's just he's a super villain.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting Are you sure he's a bad actor?
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: I am? I am now. I wasn't when I went
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: into this, and I wanted to give him the benefit
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: of the doubt. But every move that he's made since
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: then has shown me that he is a marvel level
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: super villain.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Hm. Wow, that's a I mean, I look the picture
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: you're painting. I I get it. I understand where you're
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: coming from. I mean, I guess Sam Altman or Elon Musk.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Which one is? Your is more marvel like in their
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: villain villain is.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: Stay Oh, Elon easily, and mainly because Elon at least
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: has a personality, right He's I.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: Joke that if you made the Bond film and you
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: said the villain was named the Bond villain was named
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk, You're like, you wouldn't even change the name.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: You're like, oh, that's a perfect name.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he I mean he's got he see, Alman
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't really have a personality. Elon's is a weird guy
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: who names his kids X three, J five and like,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, wants to go to Mars and is
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: and is and spouts off out the craziest stuff you
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: could possibly think of. Allman is very like even keeled.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: Doesn't make him anymore any less of a villain though,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: but he's but he's less interesting in terms of Marvel characteristics.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: Does he scare you more than the folks at Google?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, But maybe that's Google's.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: To what that's going to be? Right? I mean Google
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: is now right, Gemini is overtaken, chat TPT and some
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: of the measurement scores, and you know, Google is reminding
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: open ai of what it's like when you have all
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: the resources that Google has when they change, when when
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: they sort of focus their efforts. Uh, they've made some
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: big leaps and bounds, and they have you know, all
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: these Android phones running around already that they can immediately
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: sort of embed themselves in now Apple Dot to deal
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: with Google. I mean, you know, I could argue that
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: that this has been a bad year for Sam Altman
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: because of how Google is in some ways caught up
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: to open Ai.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: So it's an interesting point and I and I would
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: also I'll tell you going into this film, I took
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: a chance on Sam Altman, right like, he he could
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: completely disappear off the face of the Earth by the
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: end of this year and be sort of like a
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: flash in a pan that nobody remembers his name, or
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: he could be the next Steve Jobs. Making this movie,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: I took a chance on him that he would be
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: like a Steve Jobs type figure in the future, because obviously,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't make this movie for right now.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: I also made it for the future. I want. I
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: wanted this this movie to be still watched and all
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: filmmakers do, right, We all want our movies to watched
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: five ten years down the road. So I so in
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: that regard, I agree with you, Like I don't know,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't totally know, but I know that
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: I gamble. I'm gambling on him in a way that
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: and gambling on open Ai that it will beat Gemini,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: that it will that it will beat Anthropic and be
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: be the number one, be the Apple, because that will
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: just make my movie more relevant. Right.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: But taking that away, I mean, are you just gambling
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: on him or or you just believe that because everything
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: you've learned? I mean, do you think he is just unique?
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Like Jobs? Jobs had a uniqueness to him, right? And
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: you know, in some ways, the Walter Isaacson biography sort
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: of you know, painted a picture. It's like, okay, he
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: was he was so obsessed with what he was doing
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: that you know when the best father and wasn't the
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: best this and wasn't the best? That is is is
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: there a drive in Altman that you think is just
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: superior to whatever Google can do?
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: Again, I don't know too much about the people that
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: run Google, but I do know a lot about Steve Jobs.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, he as young as a younger, like college student.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: He was a hero of mine. I read Walter Risey's
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: an incredible book, Seeing All Seeing All all the movies
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: about jobs, and there's a similar thing running through Altman
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: and jobs. For sure, there's a similar drive that they
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: they just don't care who who gets hurt along the way.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: They're just going to plow forward and take over the world.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to Woznik about jobs?
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: Have you ever met what those loves to I'm also
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: a huge fan of was I would love I would
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: love to talk to him one day, because.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: You know, there's always been these different theories like what
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: what's an alternative like in the in an alternative universe?
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: What if it? What if jobs? You know, when he
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: leaves Apple, Wosnick is sort of takes over and he's
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: the you know, what would Apple be the same? Would
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: it have been? You know, it's what It's an unanswerable
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: question now. But Wosnick was always seen as sort of
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: the moral center for jobs, right, he was sort of
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: the ethical that he was, and I think even you know,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: and he wasn't. It didn't seem like wosny CK's motivation
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: was financial.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: No, I mean I I think I think it wouldn't
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: have been the same, And I also I don't think
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: it would have been as successful because just from what
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: I've read, was was just too nice of a guy.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: Right, So, which, of course, is these dilemmas when you're
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: when you when we deal with these supposed you know,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: are are we supposed to accept that the only successful
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: disruptors to develop technologies that are amazing, you know, have
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: to be assholes.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think we have to accept it. I think
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: that we for some reason as a society, we we
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: not only do we let it happen, but but like
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: we we we perpetuate that, like we prop that up.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: I don't think they have to be I don't, I
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: really don't. I think I think nice guys can can
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: get ahead. But as a society, this is this is
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: what we've I think we're taught even growing up.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially the great CEOs, you know, they're they're they're ruthless,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: and you have to be ruthless to succeed. And then
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: I want to say, have you met the CEO of Costco?
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: You know, he's a pretty successful dude, and his employees
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: love him because he pays her employees pretty well, and
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: he's you know, he's different than the average average bottom
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: line CEO.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's a narrative that we buy into and
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: that we teach our kids. And I was believe me,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: I was taught at and it took me a while.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: And it took me. It took me following shadowing certain
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: directors that were really genuinely good, nice people like Jim
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: Jarmish to realize you don't have to be an asshole director.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: By the way, I'm glad you just brought that up, right.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: Hollywood's riddled with stories about you know, the asshole director
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: that made the great movies versus you know, and is
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: that even tolerated behavior anymore?
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: It's not tolerated anymore. We really did away with it during.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: The Harvey basically me too.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: And Harvey, Yeah it was Harvey. Basically, it was definitely tolerated.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: I witnessed a lot of it at the beginning, you know,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: because I've been doing this for twenty five years. Like
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: I knew. I knew Brett Ratner, for instance, Like I
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: saw him do terrible, horrible people, horrible things to people.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: But then on the flip side, you know, I worked
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: with alongside people like Jim Jarmish, who couldn't couldn't have
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: been the most complete opposite of a Brett Rattner. But
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: we've largely like disposed of those people. The scary thing
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: is I see them like starting to slowly creep back in.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: So I think we I think I think we need
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: to like, you know, keep keep up, keep on our tone.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean this is where political leaders may have
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: offered a permission slip for bad behavior again exactly exactly.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: I mean that's part of it. And unfortunately, like younger
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: generations pick up on that, and you know, bad behavior
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: starts to become in vogue. Again.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: Let me go back to the to the movie What
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: do you want people to take away?
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: So to me, there's a lot of anxiety around AI
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: and you know, people are worried. People are worried, is
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: it's going to take my job? Is is this what's
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: going to happen to my to my kids, what's gonna
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: happen to humans in general? Like, there's there's a lot
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: of talk, right, and I don't my movie doesn't have
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: any easy answers. But what I would like people to
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: take away And part of the reason why I'm like
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: going around the country and like doing Q and A's
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: and talking about this film is because I think one
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: of the best ways to cure anxiety is just to
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: talk about it, right, And so if I could start
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: conversation and get people talking, that's that's all. That's all
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: I want to achieve. Really, that's that's the that's that's
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: the least that I could really do to to just
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: help people, you know, and then entertain them at the
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: same time. It is a comedy. I want people to laugh.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: I want people to like.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because I felt this was
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: not satire, but you were trying to You weren't trying
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: to be boring, that was for sure. And you weren't
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: and you weren't trying to lecture.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: Can I put that on a poster?
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: Go for it.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: Man, he wasn't trying to be boring, Chuck tuh right uh.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: But and you clearly weren't trying to lecture, right, Yeah.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: And that's why I was curious, what what did you
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: hope to take away? I mean, you know, I thought
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: it was very clever some of the things you did,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: which is, you know, part of the process of making
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: the film and searching for Sam Altman, and is also
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: you went around and figured out, okay, what's the legal
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: you talk? You brought your lawyer on what can I
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: do legally? Which I thought was an InTru you know, look,
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: it was transparent And are you at all concerned about
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: legal exposure on this?
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: By the way, not at all. And I think it's
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: for those reasons, like I made the process extremely transparent,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: so no spoilers. This isn't a spoiler, but like we
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: show the guts of like the deep fake and how
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: we make it.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Oh exactly, it's the whole process, which I think was
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: a healthy exercise. I you know, I've had people recommend
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: tell me I should make my own chuck bot large
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: language model, and I am, there's I'm like, why do
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: I want to do that? You know, I don't know.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: You know it's like upload my books and upload all that,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't know. My thinking's evolved over
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: thirty five years. I don't want to always have what
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: I thought twenty years ago be the baseline for what
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: my bot thinks. Anyway, it's it's a but I thought
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: it was a healthy thing to let people know how
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: this is done.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and to be transparent that like, you know,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: we're not what you're seeing is not supposed to manipulate
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: you or trick you, like, because that is where I
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: draw the line. I think there are there are ethics
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: around this, and I think when you're trying to manipulate
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: people and trick people through deep fakes or or through
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: AI generated video, that's just that's just wrong. That is unethical.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: And people ask me, well, what do we what you know,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: what what do you think people should do about it? Well, like, yeah,
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: I think I think there should be some type of
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: disclaimer on it in the same way that you know,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: back in the nineties there were parental advisory logos on
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: rap music that I would buy, Like, you know, it's
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: that simple. Uh, but yeah, it's it's it's a it's
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: a huge it's a huge problem, this idea that we
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: won't be able to tell what's real and what's not
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: and what's AI generated in the very near future.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes when we're trying to figure out what
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: to regulate, you almost have to go through the process
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: of doing what you did deep faking of a well
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: known person to then understand what regulate what a pragmatic
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: regulatory structure would look like. So you went through this process,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: you might have had some idea of what it would
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: look like before, but now that you've done it, what
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: do you think? And now like, hey, and I say this,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: advise me. What are the questions I should be asking
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: candidates running for office about AI regulation that you now
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: understand in a way that you didn't when you started
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: this film?
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I hope that candidates running for office
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: at least have because some of these there are just
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: so many dinosaurs who don't even know, like I can't
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: even talk about this kind of stuff, But I would
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: hope that they would that they would be able to
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: have a conversation and answer questions like what are we
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: going to do about AI generated video in the future,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Like how are we like, how are we going to
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: differentiate it? How are we going to make sure that
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: that our children and are like grandparents aren't like duped
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: by this kind of stuff? Like how are you how
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: are like how is that going to happen? How are
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: you gonna how are you gonna do this?
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: The problem is they have no idea what that even means.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: Most of them.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: Can I just tell you, I can't tell you how
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: many times I go on social media and I'll follow
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: and somebody will say, well, we'll sort of forward a
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: post and say, well, this is obvious AI slop, And
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: I look at at it with my fifty three year
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: old eyes and I'm like, going, it is. I see.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: I don't see two knees, I don't see six fingers, right,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: I know that the rudimentary checklist. But as we know,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: all this stuff gets better, you know, I think it's
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: harder than ever to see the distinction. And yet it
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: does seem as if people with younger eyes like you
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: go through this in the film. Again, I apology for
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: the spoiler, but I remember at one point, the first
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: time you debut your your deep fake, after the whole
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: there's kind of a little bit of a of an
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: escapade of trying to get the Guide to the Caribbean
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: and all that stuff. I don't want to that. I
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: think that's a fun part of the movie. I don't
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: want to spoil that. It's kind of a little humorous part.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: But I remember I think it was I think it
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: was you or a colleague who said, oh man, my
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: fourteen year old would not believe that that looks like
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: a bad video game. Character, and I'm like, okay, if
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: you say so, Like I didn't. I felt like, oh no,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: are my eyes too old to see this?
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that was That was me being a perfectionist director,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: I guess, but it did. You're right, some people have
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: seen the deep fake and this this is like kind
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: of a spoiler, but like some people have seen the
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: deep fake when it's finally created in the movie and thought, like,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: what are you talking about, Adam? That was actually really
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: good and so yeah it is. It is y, but
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: that to me is even scarier because I feel like
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: then I think about, you know, certain certain members of
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: my family who maybe aren't as like on you know,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: always on the internet, as as I am right being
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: duped by this getting getting a call. I mean, the
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: craziest things are going to happen, right, getting a FaceTime
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: from me, like saying like I'm in trouble, I need money,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: Like right now, have you.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: Come up with the code words with your family? Yet
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: I keep having people tell me I should and I
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: have it.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: Yet Yeah, that reminds me that I have to as well.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, right now, it's it's not so
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: much the video, it's the voice cloning, the voice cloning
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: is pretty.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: I'm personally petrified to that because of how much of
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: my voice is out there. Yeah right, it's just sitting
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: out there and fair use land, fair use land yet, right,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: And I that is something that has concerned me. I
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: don't know what to do about it. What amout, but
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: it's a concern I really have. What I mean, I'm
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: not Matthew McConaughey who's decided to like trademark is at
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: least some of his sayings, which is maybe he's onto something.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he is onto something. I don't think
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: there's much we can do about it other than yeah,
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: like have a safe word. This sounds so crazy to
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: even talk about it, but.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: Like, did you think twenty years ago you'd be having geez?
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: We got to have safe words and it had nothing
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: to do with sex.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I mean, I don't mean to go but like,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: you know, the first time I heard safe words, it's
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: usually associated with that.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: It's it's crazy to think that we have to have
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: a conversation with our kids of like, hey, or our
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: our grandparents are our parents are.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: Just going to say it's really our parents? I think
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: might tell.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: You and I'm I'm and I'm in trouble asking for
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: money that might not be me, Like right, hold on
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: just a second, and you know, text me on the
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: other line, because that may not be me. But that's
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: the kind of conversations that we're going to have to
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: have like now, like not not now, but right now.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: Well it's funny, you know with AI safety, I mean,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: who should be paying for those public service announcements? Like
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: in some ways, if this is what we have to do,
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: and you know, there's a part of me that wonders
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: if you start doing that as sort of like a PSA,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: are we accepting the premise that we're all just going
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: to get deep faked? Or do we still want to
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: fight this?
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think we can fight it. I
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: think we need to accept the head premise. But maybe
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: that's just me. But I also made this movie called
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: Deep Faking Sam Altman.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: Right, speaking of making that movie, what parts of AI
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: as a movie maker? You're like, oh, man, I I
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I walk that picket line this or that.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: But boy, that's kind of nice that I could do
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: this and this short of time. Is there some tools
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: that you just like, definitely guilty guilty that you feel
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: guilty about how great they are.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Like so I'm a documentary filmmaker. I do
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: make more traditional documentary films. This one is definitely a
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: weird or more narrative hybrid one. But you know, I
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: did that the alt right documentary about Charlottesville riot. So
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: the ability to create, to generate archival footage, to not
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: have to go spend.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: The amount of time right to get archival footage like that,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: that could in some ways take more time than just
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: shooting what you're shooting, right.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like going out and hunting down a piece of
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: archival like taking hours and hours and hours and costing
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: maybe costing like you know, tens of thousands of dollars
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: to license. To be able to just sit down and
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: create it in thirty seconds incredible, Like I would love
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: to be able to do that, but we're already shutting
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: that down within the documentary world. There's like a code
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: of ethics now around AI that's being kind of passed around,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: which I get it, I understand, but like part of
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: me is like, oh, man, like I that's that's that's
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: gonna make things so much easier.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what I you know, I think about
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: this when you know, look, there's new technologies always create fear, right,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: there is a there's a so and and look AI
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: uh AI optimists talk about this a lot, right, And
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: it's a fair counterpoint that you know, there's we're always
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: dystopian about a new technology, but it usually is is
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: more benign than we by the the actual implementation is
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: a lot more benign than ever before. Why isn't that
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: going to be the case with AI?
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think it. I think it will
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: be the case to a certain extent, right, But the
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: problem is where where it becomes more dystopian is when
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: you start to when you start to put AI into
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: things like weapons, you know, guns, missiles, bombs, grenades, stuff
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: like that, because it can be used and it is
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: already being used in that degree, and you know, other
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: things like social media not necessary and I can't necessarily
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: like this. This AI is kind of perfect for defense.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: And that's where it gets really dark and dystopian.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I am sure, I'm speaking of that. I've been
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: wondering why that we haven't seen a reboot of wargames,
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole premise of wargames. The Matthew Broderick movie,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: which may have come out before you were born, So
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: I don't have you, do you? So my apologize. I'm
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: forty six, so okay, you're much closer, Okay then you
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: were around when more games. You know, how have we
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: not rebooted that movie with the with with the with
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: the scary times that We're like that was a bit
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: far fetched at the time, right, We couldn't really imagine
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: that there wouldn't be human elements to get in the
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: way of that.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I mean it's a good idea. Maybe I
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: need to get on get on that, get on pitching that.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah, speaking of uh, speaking of that,
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: what is next for you? What are the next topics
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: that that are keeping you up at night that you
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: think deserve deserve the documentary treatment? Oh?
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: Man, I mean I've got a couple of things that
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: I'm out there pitching right now. I'm pitching. I'm pitching
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: a project that I don't I don't want to. I
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: don't want to reveal exactly what it is because it's
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: such I can't believe nobody has done something on it.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: I know those feelings.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's in the it's in the world of
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: personal injury law. Okay, And I think that is a
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: world that is ripe for documentary treatment, like we've only
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: really seen it, I think in better call Saul, Like,
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: I can't believe there hasn't been a documentary in that world.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: It's a fascinating for a couple of reasons. Fascinating people, right,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: These lawyers are incredible characters, right.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: I Yeah, Look, I'm a sucker for a good sort
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: of like you know these when you there's a few
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: sort of lawyer books. Scott Drew and all those guys
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: love to write about those lawyers, right, the ones that
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: you know, frankly are the the working class lawyer. I
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: don't know else to call them right where they've got
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: to just make a living one thousand bucks at a time.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: You Know what's really I think interesting and urgent about
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: that top right now, too, is because our healthcare system
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: is so incredibly broken that there are a lot of
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: people who don't have healthcare, and so when the ship
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: hits the fan, when something tragic happens, those are the
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: only people they can go to. Those are their heroes
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: are like are they're like local heroes. Yeah, And so
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: on the one hand, they're seen as like these grifters.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: They're seen as these like con men. But on the
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: other hand, in this terrible system that we're living in
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: where healthcare is just just could not be any worse.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: I mean it is, it is like it.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: It's well, the system, the healthcare companies, the the system
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: is designed to pay the least amount of money that
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: they can pay.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so these guys come into the fray and
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: are like, I'm gonna bleed these healthcare these these healthcare
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: companies dry. I'm gonna get you your money, right, And
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: so there it's it's a great I think topic for
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: documentary because.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: No, meanwhile, you know, I don't think Meanwhile, a week
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: doesn't go by where I don't have some company I
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: have a relationship with to say, hey, we've changed our
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: terms and conditions to now move to arbitration when there's
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: an objection, right, which is like the amount of companies
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: and at some point I have a feeling government's got
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: to step in here because the amount of companies that
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: now basically don't ever want to have to face the
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: judicial system and want to make consumers automatically accept the
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: premise that arbitrations are only outlet if something goes wrong,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: feels a bit coercive.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's criminal. I think I think
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: these I think these people are criminals and so and
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: that and that world. Like the personal injury lawyer at
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: the building.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: You're one hundred percent right though about the characters. To me,
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: you're one hundred percent right on the characters. I'm I'm
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: friendly with John Morgan, he's a sponsor at times of
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: this podcast. He's sort of there. The characters in this
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: world make would make a good movie, Yeah, really would.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: I've been talking to Ross Sealino of Selino and Barnes.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: He's kind of like the Lebron James of the industry.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: And then I've been talking to three guys named the
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: Hammer in three different states. There's three Hammers.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: You know, if it wasn't for personal injury lawyers, there
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: would be no no buyers of billboard advertising on interstates, right,
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: Like that's you know, you go take a road trip
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: anywhere around the country, go to Eddie Eddy interstate in
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: the country, and there's basically religious groups or personal injury
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: lawyers that that are now BUCkies that buy the billboard ads.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I talked to a guy called called himself the
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: anti lawyer. He spends four hundred thousand dollars a month
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: on Billboards.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think you've you've sold me. I wait
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: to You know, we could pre book the podcast right
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: now the day after you premiere that one. That sounds
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: like a lot of fun. What else on your radar?
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: Anything more in the tech world.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: I think I'm going to take a little bit of
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: a break from the tech world.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: How long did this take of your time? How much
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: of this was this? An eighteen month? Two years?
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: Eighteen months? Yeah, it was about eighteen months. It was
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: a quick turnaround because we knew that, like, there was
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: urgency in getting the story out. There's a lot of
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: people working on AI documentaries. I think we're pretty much
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: the first to come out, and you know, it's an
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: urgent topic that people desperately want to want answers to
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: and want to talk about. So we pushed this thing
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: out pretty quickly and premiered A south By Southwest and
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: last last March.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: Well, look, I think the best part of this movie
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: is just this. It's supposed to spark a conversation, it's
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: supposed to spark questions, and you know, if you smoke
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: out the leaders to talk about it. I mean, I
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: feel like, did you talk with Jeffrey Hinton, right, who's
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: sort of the godfather of AI who warns people about AI.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: So I reached out to him. I did get in
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: touch with him, and he's overseas taking us about it,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: working on something or other. But he did actually his
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: emails online and he actually did respond to me.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: Well, it's congratulations on it. And you know, I hope
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: you keep track of the type of Q and a's
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: that you have. In some ways there might be I'm
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: not saying build a large language model from all of
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: the Q and a's, but the AM I would love
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: to see sort of after you've done this the collection,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: because I think you will have a potential resource of
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: concerns that maybe our elected leaders should be aware of.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point. I'm definitely filming them all.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: And you know, the question is do our elected leaders
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: care enough to even want to hear it?
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: You know, I will always say this about the elected leaders.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: They care when their voters care, right right on. So
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: your job is to make the voters care. And look,
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: you did what a good educator should do. You also
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: figured out how to entertain right at the end of
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: the day. We're all educators in this media business if
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: you're doing it right, and you've got to get people
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: to pay attention. And this is an entertaining film, and
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: you made people pay attention. Congratulations.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that, all.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: Right, brother. And you're not a Phillies fan. We were
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: talking about this pre tape, right am I am I
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: supposed to take away that you are a Phillies fan
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: or not a Phillies fan, not.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: A Phillies fan, a Dodgers fan. But I'm a collector
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: of vintage jerseys. And I figured somebody someone watching this
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: podcast will appreciate the Mike the Michael Jack Schmidt vintage
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: Phillies jersey.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: It's the best of all the uniforms of the Phillies
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: that when they're doing the powder blue. It's funny how
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: much the powder blue, right, it's the best of the
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: Chargers uniforms. It's the best that powder blue just does
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: well on TV. Dodgers, Evil Empire, or just smarter than
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: everybody else.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, definitely smarter than everybody else. I mean, there's there's
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: also you know, I mean, look, Otani is greatest of
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: all time. Sorry, like it's just it's otani. Look it is.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: It's kind of boring. We don't even get to have
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: a debate. It's not even close. Like it's like, oh yeah,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: and okay, next question. Like you know, the beauty of
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: sports is supposed to disagree, and we can't disagree right
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: now in baseball.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all the evil empire, money stuff, politics,
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: you know, inner baseball politics, none of that. Take that
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: all out of conversation. It's just we have otani. Sorry,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: Like that's.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: It, right, and everything else falls into place. Adam, good
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: luck on the tour. Be safe out there. And like
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: I said, I hope document all your questions because I
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: think there's going to be that's going to be a
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: rich resource if you can figure out how to put
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: it to use.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: We'll do. Thank you, all right, my friend, appreciate it.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: I'll take a look at the movie. Like I said,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: it's Scott as he said, there's comedic elements to it,
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: but understanding the ease with which people can be deep
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: faked right now, I mean, you can see we have
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: so many laws and regulations that need to be passed
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: to protect the rest of us that we haven't remotely
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: thought about. I mean, look, as the opening of this
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: podcast will tell you, we've got a lot of big
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: fish to fry. AI It's unfortunately just one of them,
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: and it's not even the biggest fish we're facing. But
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: that's what I took away from this from this film
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: is how much how much of my rights, all of
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: our rights are being left unprotected right now and in
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: the hands of a handful of tech titans. We did
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: this once, How well did that work out? Are we
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: really going to allow this to happen again? And before
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: I go to the time machine today, which frankly, like
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: I said, it's about bloody Sunday, and I know that
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: invokes some of you may think, which where's he going?
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: Is he staying in the Western Hemisphere? Is he going
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: to Europe? Before I get to it, I do think
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: it's interesting. One thing I didn't do the top is
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: sort of what is the near term political fallowout here?
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: And I thought i'd quickly sort of get at the
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: look fallow. Number one is this government shutting down right
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: any sort of You know, there is no more distinction
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: between those that want to abolish ICE and those that
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: want to reform ICE. Right now, there is no interest
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: in funding any part of vice. You may have a
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: Democratic party that is in favor of the idea of
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: having an immigration enforcement law agency, but not under the
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: leadership of Christino. What's fascinating to me on the politics
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: side here is that you start to see you're seeing
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: more elected Republicans get some distance from what Trump's DHS
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: is doing. Here you have Kevin Stitt, the governor of Oklahoma,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: put out a joint statement, so he went on the
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: record with the government, with the demo, with the vice
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: chair of the NNGA National gover Association. Kevin Stitt is
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: the chair, Wes Moore is the vice chair. This is
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: something that every year rotates between a Democrat and a Republican.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: This is a ray. That's why there's a Republican that's chaired.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: This will rotate in a year, and whoever the vice
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: chair is becomes the chair. And there's this whole thing.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: It's a very much designed to be a bipartisan organization.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: And they put out a statement that essentially says the
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: federal government needs to let cannot trample on the rights
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: of this of state governments. He didn't quite word it,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: didn't use the word trample. It was definitely carefully worded,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: but it frankly, you know, before this month, I would
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: assume most conservative governors would have been able to side
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: with the statement that the NNGA put out, which is
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: that the federal government doesn't override states the right of
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: state governments to find out what's happening to their citizens
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: in their state, so it calls for a joint investigation.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: You got a guy like Bill Cassidy, who, of course
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: may feel braver speaking out against Trump administration now that
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump has endorsed a primary opponent, but he has
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: said that there is credibility issues with DHS and ICE
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: and then the punditry class. And now a member of
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: the of the have said punditry class is is Margie
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: Taylor Green. She's been out of Congress now twenty days.
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: I thought her statement and I'm going to read I'm
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: want to read it here. I thought it was interesting
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: because she makes the small C conservative point that I've
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: been making quite a bit. Marjorie Taylor Green writes, I
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: impeach Biden, Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorchis. Those were
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: my articles of impeachment that passed in the House of
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: Representatives I unapologetically believe in border security and deporting criminal
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: illegal aliens, and I support law enforcement. However, I also
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: unapologetically support the Second Amendment. Legally carrying a firearm is
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: not the same as brandishing a firearm. I support American's
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: First and Fourth Amendment rights. There's nothing wrong with legally
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: peacefully protesting and videoing MAGA consider it like this, and
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: then she adds, we lost our minds when we watch
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: Biden's FBI tracked down and aggressively carry out home invasions,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: her words, and arrest on peaceful J sixers who walked
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: in the Capitol through open doors. Imagining if one of
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: our MAGA independent journalists or even just a MAGA supporter
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: stood in the street outside a J sixer's house while
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: Biden's FBI carried out a law enforcement operation home invasion
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: and arrest. Then Biden's FBI guys goes to the MAGA
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: guy videoing at all and shoves a woman with him
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: to the ground and sprays them with bear spray. Then
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: throws the MAGA guy to the ground as Maga guy
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: was trying to help the woman off the ground. Then
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: Biden's FBI beats MAGA guy on the ground, disarms Mega
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: guy and then shoots him dead. What would have been
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: our reaction in her hypothetical scenario. This is a hypothetical scenario.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: She pays because guess what, this didn't happen under Biden's FBI. Right, Yes,
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: they did go and arrest people on January sixth, and
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: not all of you are going to agree to the
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: language she used to describe January six or those that
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: were arrested under lawfully issued subpoenas and indictments. But she
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: has a point here. What would have been the reaction
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: had those FBI agents took a citizen who decided to
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: videotape everything that was happening. So then she both sides
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: it here, she says, both sides need to take off
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: their political blinders. You are all being incited into civil war.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: Yet none of it solves any of the real problems
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: that we all face, and tragically, people are dying. So
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: that's the reaction from Marjorie Taylor Green. And you can say, well,
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: she's already been breaking from Trump, but she does not
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: break from her own ideology. She is seeing things as
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: a small sea conservative And a memo to my conservative
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: friends who say they're conservative and support this administration. This
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: administration is the furthest thing away from traditional conservatism. It's
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: not even close, couldn't be further. That's why there's you know,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: and I follow, I follow all. I look, I am
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: constantly consuming both MAGA conservatism. So the crazy guys like
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: Roger Stone, who, by the way, is going on his
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: radio show advocating invoking the Insurrection Act, and that should
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: concern us. There are a few people in the president's
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: circle advocating us, and he is of weak mind at
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: the moment. There are people that are trying really hard
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: to keep him from doing the craziest shit. There may
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: not be enough people doing it, but there are people
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: trying to do that, right, Even kat I always love it.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: My favorite attempt at this is like Kevin Stitt went
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: on one of the Sunday shows and he said, you know,
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: he's getting the president's getting bad advice. You know, nobody
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: ever wants to criticize Donald Trump. It's his advisors. Well
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: which advisor he wants to say, Stephen Miller, but he
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: can't bring himself to stay Stephen Miller. But it's clear
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: that's what Kevin Stitt is saying. But The point is
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: this is chipping away, This is becoming a massive political problem.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: There are true libertarian conservatives who would never vote for
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, would never vote for a Democrat. That cannot
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: sit here in stomach what Donald Trump is doing and
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: what this administration is doing trampling on the Bill of Rights,
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: I mean just up and down the Bill of Rights,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: full on trampling. So this is a real political impact.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: This is a political disaster. Look, it is a disaster
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: for all of us. But if you want to look
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: at it just through the prism of politics, it's bad.
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: And everybody knows it's bad, even those that attempt to
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: defend some part of what they're doing. Eric Erickson somebody
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: I had known a long time. He's a very decent individual.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: We don't agree on everything, and he's somebody that sort
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: of tries really hard to have a conversation with mega
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: keeps one foot in the sort of the the I'd say,
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: i'd call him a skeptical skeptic of Trump. So it's
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: interesting he is not ready to say DHS shouldn't be
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, but he is acknowledging that DHS is making
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: stuff up and they have to stop doing that. So
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: he puts out this one tweet, which I think, again,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: this is I think it's important to highlight this because
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: this is how various folks are trying to get to
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: the press it in different ways to try to let
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: him understand this is a political disaster. So he wants
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: to blame this on democratic policies and the sanctuary city policies.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: He says, we are He says he believed the only
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: message that they should be saying is the following. We
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: are at this point because the state of Minnesota and
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: the city of Minneapolis continue to harbor illegal aliens. The
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: American people want to port it. The deaths of American
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: citizens are tragic and made more tragic by the governor
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: and mayor whipping activists into a frenzy to stop the
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: federal government from enforcing the laws of Minnesota and Minneapolis
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: that they refuse to enforce. Neither Misgod nor mister Preddi
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: would be dead and the Border Patrol would not be
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: roaming the streets of Minnesota if the state government cooperated
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: with the federal government's efforts to deport illegal aliens. We
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: will not cease enforcement of federal law because of a
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: mob so that's his way of defending what they're doing.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: And then because he can't, he knows what they're doing
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: is wrong. He also then adds this, he said he believed,
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: and he's trying to separate the blame. What it really
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: is is he's trying to give an off ramp to
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: the west wing, which is maybe you can stop the
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: bleeding here literally and figuratively if you do the following,
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: And then he writes this, a lot of what is
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: happening now is Christinohm marginalized Tom Holman, the guy who
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: took that fifty grand bag of cash, so is kind
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: of questionable legitimacy on his own. But I will tell
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: you plenty of people Ali may Orchis and Jay Johnson
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: will tell you Tom Holman very good things about Tom Holman,
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: that he is a professional first who's allowed himself to
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: be whipped up into a political frenzy a bit. But
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: Eric Erickson is arguing that Tom Holman not being marginalized
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: is why we're here, and that the head of Border Patrol,
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: because because Christine Oh prioritize deportation of excuse me, is
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: he right? He goes a marginalized Tom Holman and the
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: head of Border Patrol because those two prioritized deportations of
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: criminals and gang menger gang members. Eric Erickson puts the
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: blame on Christy Noh and Corey Lewandowski, her political advisor,
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: who has some sort of status as a as a
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: federal government worker. And he said no, and Lewandowski wanted
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: broad public roundups without prioritizing the illegal aliens. They bypassed
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: home and in the head of Border Patrol and elevated
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: Greg Bovino because they want the public confrontations and displays.
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: It's a feature, not a bug. Folks to put this
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: sort of this Greg Bovino, he's some sort of want
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: to be I mean, he comes across as some sort
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: of like like he came out of the movie The Matrix,
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: you know, him and his long leather coat. Some people
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: want to say he's a Nazi, like I'm always you know,
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: I'm trying not to go down that road because once
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: you go down that road, you don't unring the bell.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: But the guy clearly is trying to invoke violence in
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: the way he dresses. But it's like video game violence.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: It's stupid violence. It's matrix violence, right, It's ridiculous. Fires,
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: Erickson goes on, and that's not the progressive press recording this,
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: that's the conservative Fox News New York Post in Washington Examiner,
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: and he said, it's not just Tim Walls and Jacob
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: Privee driving tensions. It is a policy choice made by
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: the Secretary of Olandsecurity and those around her because they
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: thought it would make for great coverage. The point is, look,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: Eric Herritson wants to defend the policy. It's hard to
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: defend this policy when the people implementing the policy have
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: no regard for the Constitution. This is no longer about
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 1: the policy. This is about the use of force and
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: the Constitution, and DHS has violated all of it. But
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: the bigger happening here is that as I sort of,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: as I wrote two months ago on my sub stack,
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna pull a muscle padding myself on
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: the back. This coalition that Trump put together is fracturing. Well,
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: it is breaking left and right, and he is And look,
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: and I know you some of you follow Eric Erks
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: are like, well, he's bolted on Trump and come back before. Yeah,
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: because he's a conserved and he doesn't want to. He's
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: not crazy about you know, just because you know, and
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: this is what liberals have to sort of accept. If
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: you find a conservative critic of Trump, don't then criticize them.
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: If they if they turn out not ready to vote
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: for liberals, they may not, okay, But the point is
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: that these folks are gettable. If you go out, if
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: you tackle this from a bit more of a dispassionate
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: rule of law, ground yourself in the Constitution. But what
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: is important here is that no Republicans want it. There
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: are very few Republicans. There's a hand there's a handful
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: who only care about the thirty five percent that seem
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: to be okay with this behavior, because as we see,
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: there's a consistent and the number keeps showing up as
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: thirty four to thirty five percent. Now you've got to
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: trust that it's ice are the good guys. Everybody else
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: is the bad guys, etcetera, etcetera. So that is your
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: your core you see there that you know is isis
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: behavior justified? It's always about thirty five percent. But the
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: problem is that's not a winning coalition for the right.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: All they have left is that thirty five percent, And
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: there are some that are only going to worry about
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: that thirty five percent because thats all they have to
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: worry about, is a primer. But anybody at all dealing
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: with swing voters is suddenly realizing this is wildly unpopular
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: and terrible politics, let alone terrible for the country. All right,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: And with that it's time for the podcast time Machine. So,
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: as you know, every week in this segment, I like
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: to step back to this week in history, and this
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: week includes one of those phrases that carries multiple meanings
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: depending on who you are and when you came of age.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: For some Americans, bloody Sunday means Selma and the Edmund
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: Pettis Bridge. For others it means Northern Ireland. And for
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially off a certain age, the
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 1: phrase may first registered simply through a song Sunday, Bloody
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: Sunday by U two. By the way, it's a song
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: that opens not with poetry, but with a with exhaustion.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: I guess you could say I can't believe the news today? Boy?
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: Is this ring true? Huh? There's some echoes here, that's
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: the point. So tonight though, I am talking about January thirtieth,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, Bloody Sunday in Dairy and why more
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: than fifty years later, it still echoes. Let me set
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: the scene for you. It's Northern Ireland before the shooting.
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: By the early nineteen seventies, Northern Ireland was already simmering
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: with political dis if you would call political disruption. The
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: Catholic minority faced systemic housing discript nation, unequal voting power,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: and routine harassment by security forces. Civil rights marches had
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: begun years earlier, modeled consciously on the American Civil rights movement.
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: And here's the critical point. These were not revolutionary marches.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: They were demand simply for equal treatment within the United Kingdom.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: This was not about overthrowing the king or overthrowing the
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: Prime Minister. But the British government had grown increasingly alarmed
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: marches were banned. Can you imagine that happening here? Internment
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: without trial was imposed, and the British Army, initially welcomed
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: by many Catholics as protection, turned into an occupying force.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: So here's what actually happened. On January thirtieth, nineteen seventy two,
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: several thousand protesters marched in the bog Side neighborhood of Derry.
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: They were unarmed, many of them were young, some of
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: them were even teenagers. Not surprising, right, It's the youth
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: that has the energy and the motivation to march. But
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: the march was illegal, but it was also peaceful. But
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 1: because it was illegal, the Brits deployed paratroopers. Tensions rose
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: and within minutes soldiers opened fire. By the end of
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: the day, thirteen civilians were dead. One more would later
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: die of his wounds. None were armed. Let me say repeat,
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: none were armed. Several were shot while running away, others
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: were shot while trying to help the wounded. Not crossfire,
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: not chaos. It was state violence against civilians. Almost immediately,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: the British government claimed the following that soldiers were fired
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: upon they weren't. Nail bombs were present, fiction force was necessary.
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: Those claims were widely reported, and for years those claims stood.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: But the damage wasn't just to the deaths. It was
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: a collapse of trust. Bloody Sunday didn't just kill civilians.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: It killed the belief that the state could be neutral.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: I know it's hard for you, some of you, to
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: believe that the United Kingdom would behave this way in
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. I know some of my older Irish
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: friends know this. No differently but I'm sure plenty of
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 1: you are going this can't be the UK. Yes, it was.
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: So guess what this did, IRA, which was the group
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: that was supporting the rights of the abused Catholic minority.
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 1: IRA recruitment surged, the moderates who were trying to preach
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: calm were silenced, and radicalism flourished. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: So here's my lesson from this time machine. When the
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: state lies about violence, it radicalizes the people it claims
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: to protect. It took thirty eight years for the official
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: truth to catch up with the reality of Bloody Sunday
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. It was in twenty ten the
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: Seville Inquiry concluded that the victims posed no threat, the
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: shootings were unjustified and unjustifiable, and that the soldiers accounts
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: were all false. The British Prime Minister at the time
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: formally apologized, Okay, you know we've had presidents apologize for slavery.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: It's better than not. But it's not like we can
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: rewind history. Northern Ireland had already endured decades of bloodshed.
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: Bloody Sunday didn't start the fire, but it poured fuel
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: on it. Now there's a reason this moment did not
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: get stay, did not get buried in the history books,
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: thanks to our friends. Hey you too, Bono. And here's
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: what I'm going to do with that annoying Bono who
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: one time called me a radical centrist. I'm not sure
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: he was paying me a compliment, but he was kind
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: of trying to pay me a compliment. I think I've
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: mentioned this once or twice, but it was one of
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: those weird moments, and I was telling him how much
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: I just love the there's this one throwback album that
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: I loved her. It was a small salon dinner, and
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: all he wanted to do was talk about the media.
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: We had a good conversation. But when you two released
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: Sunday Bloody Sunday in nineteen eighty three, it wasn't a
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: protest anthem in the traditional sense. It was a lament right.
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: The song is not an angry song. It's weary, right.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: How long must we sing this song? Right? Broken bottles
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: under children's feet, It's sad. It's not a call to
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: arms either. It's a It's expressions of moral fatigue. It's
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: probably why the song resonates, and it was important for
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: it to happen because the song actually doesn't pick sides.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: It just simply condemns the cycle of bullshit and violence.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: It captures what happens when violence becomes normalized and when
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: everyone insists they're acting defensively. It's my great fear of
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen in Minneapolis. Right each side believes
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: the behavior of the other only means they've got to
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: dig in more. We need real leadership at this moment
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 1: to de escalate. With the President of the United States,
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: it's the only person that could play that role effectively,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: and he's refusing to deescalate. I appreciate that jd. Vance
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: used calm tone, but he clearly failed because the biggest
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: problem that took place there was not opening an investigation
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: on Renee Good and we now understand the fallout from that.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: But back to my time, as you could see, it's hard.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: It's hard to disentangle anything these days from what's happening
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: on the ground of Minneapolis. But let me be precise here.
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say that history is repeating itself,
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: but we should recognize the patterns, and that's what the
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: point of Bloody Sunday is. Bloody Sunday shows us that
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 1: what happens when governments refine redefine protest as inherent disorder.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 1: You've heard many of these propagandas do that on the
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: Sunday Morning shows. They're trying to treat whole communities as suspect. Again,
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: all of Minneapolis is the problem, if you believe Stephen Miller,
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: and they want to rely on force first and an
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: explanation later. When modern leaders talk about dominating cities, or
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: when immigration enforcement rhetoric shifts from law to punishment, history
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: reminds us of something essential. Almost never see themselves as
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: crossing a line in real time. They tell themselves they're
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 1: restoring order. They tell themselves that restraint has failed. They
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: tell themselves forces temporary. Bloody Sunday tells us how permanent
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: the consequences can be. There's a reason bloody Sunday as
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: a phrase still resonates. It's a shorthand for a moment
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: when the state lost moral authority by the way. That
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: happened in Selma, that happened in Darry, that happened in Minneapolis.
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: Legitimacy has collapsed. That happened in the South in the sixties,
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: that happened in Northern Ireland in the seventies, and that's
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: happening right now in the ground in Minneapolis, and truth
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 1: took decades to surface. I hope that's not the case
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, but it has been the case with civil
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: rights in the sixties and what happened in Northern Ireland
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: in the seventies. But this is why that phrase survives
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: in history books, in memory, and in music. So when
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: we look back later this week on January thirtieth, nineteen
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: seventy two, the lesson isn't simply about Northern Ireland. It's
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: about restraint. It's about truth, about how easily governments convince
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: themselves that force will solve what legitimacy already had lost, or,
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: as you two put it, without offering any answers, only
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: a warning, the battles just bego. All right, let's do
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: some question, ask Chuck, I know what more is there
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: to say or ask? At this point, I'll admit I'm
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: mentally exhausted from all of this. But this podcast, everything
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: I'm doing, is meaningless without your contributions, and I'm not
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: going to let an episode go without taking a few questions.
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 1: And so with that, I'll start with this Chuck, I
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: heard you say that the ICE agents in Minneapolis were
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: untrained newbies. But the one who killed Renee Good was
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: reportedly a ten year veteran and the one who shot
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: the ICU nurse had six seven years of experience. That's
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: actually more troubling. Those aren't rookies, and they were likely
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: trained under more constitutionally aware policies. I just wanted to
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: share that nuance in case it hadn't come across your
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: red area. Iet. Keep up the good work, Corey b Hey,
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: it's fair. You know. I think it goes back to
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: are there going to be consequences for bad actions? Right?
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: You know, ultimately, why are there laws? Why do we
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: have these laws against bad actions when sometimes bad actors
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: are going to happen no matter what. Because I do
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: think in some circumstances somebody who there are people who who,
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: if they're there are no consequences, don't have their own
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: moral center. But it takes consequences for them to have
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: a moral center, or at least behave as if they
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: have one. So these are important facts. They're even more troubling.
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: But there's no doubt that this is top down. They
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: are the message that it's been sent is that there
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: will be tolerance for violence, and that has allowed plenty
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: of those who are of a weak mind and maybe
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: don't have a moral or ethical center that is filled
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: with empathy or even has an ounce of empathy. They
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: can then also do bad things. So I can't you know,
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: I still stand by that. Look, the training videos, the
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: advertisements or ice agents tell you what they're They're not
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: looking for law enforcement officers who practice restraint de escalatory,
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: so there's no doubt and perhaps these guys were picked
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: because they're more likely to be thugs in their behavior,
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 1: not less likely. Next question comes from Kenny from Massapequa.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to be able to prove I could say, Massapequa,
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your take on the Minneapolis shooting and agreed
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: to nearly all of it. One thing I'd add The
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 1: video shows the agents escalating quickly, no sign of de escalation,
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: and it looks like the young man was trying to
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 1: protect another protester who had just been shoved. That level
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: of aggression suggests deeper issues than just lack of training.
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 1: Fair point. It's also clear now that the Trump administration
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: fully supports these tactics, and I worry about the feedback
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: loop that creates. Are you hearing anything different behind the scenes. Also,
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: even though I'm pretty far left politically, I listened regularly
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 1: appreciate the honest conversations you bring to the table. Thanks
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: for helping me step outside my own echo chamber. Stay warm.
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: Kenny from Massapequa. Well, look, I mean, I think at
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: this point the fact that you're starting to see folks
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: that will support this more aggressive policy going to get
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 1: anybody that's in this country that's undocumented and deporting them immediately.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: Those that support the policy are starting to get uncomfortable
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: with the tactics. So it is the tactics that to
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: me are the eighty twenty issue here. The policy is
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: not eighty twenty right, And I think we've all of that.
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: You know, I do not, you know, believe although at
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 1: this point ICE feels in its current form, DHS and
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 1: ICE feel you know, they may feel irredeemable to you,
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 1: but I would look, the FBI has been irredeemable at
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 1: times and then fix CIA same thing. So you know,
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 1: to me, it's not institutions that fail, it's the people
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: in charge of them that make them fail. But yeah,
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's no I do think that
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 1: I want to align myself with what Robert George said,
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: like I said, along time conservative columnists and you know,
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: just sort of I guess more of your old fashioned
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: free market conservative right and very much limited government conservative
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 1: who says, look the the You know that this was
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: the mistake not investigating, not not acceding to a full
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 1: investigation of what happened to Rene Good because what the
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: un and maybe this was an intended message. So I
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to say, but the message it's sent to
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: ICE agents was you're not going to be held accountable.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 1: Don't worry. And the same message was sent to protesters,
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: These guys are not going to be held So, you know,
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: I have a feeling, you know, here, here's here's a
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: question that I'm going to be curious about. Are we
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 1: going to see a surge in people that have never
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 1: registered by a gun before suddenly registered by a gun
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 1: because they're fearful of their own government? Next question comes
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 1: from David and Highland Park, Illinois. Right, Hey, Chuck, really
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: appreciate your voice during moments like these. It's been a
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 1: port in the storm. Thank you for saying that someone
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: who's family fled pilgrims in the villages south of Kiev.
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: I now find myself wondering how naive is I to
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 1: believe it can't happen here? Yeah, I know, you and
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 1: me both brother. The ice killings have shaken that belief,
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 1: and I worry we're nearing a tipping point historically and socially,
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 1: with so much at stake for so many of us.
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 1: How do we navigate this moment without descending into unrest
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: or unraveling what's left in the American experiment? Well, look,
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 1: this is I tried to end with with that sort
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: of like what needs to happen? Right, everybody needs to
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: do their part. Some of their part is simply voting.
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: Some of their part is simply protesting. Some of their
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: part is calling your member of Congress, calling your senator.
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: You know, I teach a class called how Washington Works,
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: and it's I got thirty eight students this semester, So
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: it's the largest class I've taught, and about half of
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: them have internships on Capitol Hill. And all of them
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: said that their phones, whether they're answering phones for Democrat
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: or somebody else Republicans, they've all been flooded about complaints
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 1: about Ice and the behavior of Ice, et cetera. You
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: know that it is. It's all of these things, right.
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 1: It's protesting in the streets, it's calling your member of Congress,
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: it's voting for some of you, maybe running for office
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: for some of you, maybe donating money for some of you.
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is. But I will say this, the real,
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: the most effective actions are going to come from Republicans
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 1: who who believe who may believe in and their conservative politics,
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: who realize that Donald Trump is destroying the conservative movement.
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: And you know if just just through cynical political uh
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: lens here, you're gonna get you. You're not to my
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: conservative friends who are uncomfortable with what Trump's doing but
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 1: are afraid of speaking out. Take your party back. You
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: can't hope the liberals do it for you. They're not
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: going to do it for you. You can't help people like
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: me and the media. We can only tell you what's happening.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: We can tell you how this works. Fight for the
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: conservative movement. Stand up, say something. This is my friend
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: Jack Danforth, who I had in this podcast a few
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 1: weeks ago. Is this who we are? Is this who
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 1: you want to be? Do you want align yourself with
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: a movement that celebrates the brown Shirts. Right, so you
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: got to you gotta use all your all your built
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 1: all your rights, your constitutional rights. But just raining at
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 1: homemade isn't enough, right, Everybody's got to do their part.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: You know, my job as a journalist that has you know,
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: has has has some opportunity to just simply try to
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: help other colleagues of mine. Say what you see, don't
• 2:14:15
  Speaker 1: round the edges, say what you see, report what they're saying. Okay,
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: but be careful how you report what they're saying. Say
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 1: what you see. They claim they're seeing something else. We
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: can't verify what they're seeing. There is no facts to
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: back up what they've seen. That's the part I feel
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: like I can play. Everybody's got to speak up. It
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 1: is okay. And if you're a concern and you don't
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: like what you're seeing, speaking up doesn't mean you've become
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: a Kamala Harris supporter, and and and and I and
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: if you are good for you, that's democracy, that's that's
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 1: the American way. But you don't have to you don't
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 1: You don't even have to regret your vote. You can
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: simply say I didn't think Donald Trump was going to
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: behave this way. I thought he was going to behave
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: like Trump one point, Oh, you don't have to stay
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: I understand, right, It's it's human nature to stick to
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 1: your guns as long as you can. Right. And you've
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 1: seen these interviews and people are going, wow, I wanted
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 1: him to get rid of these undocumented immigrants. But but man,
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 1: I like this guy who runs the restaurant down your here.
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 1: He's a wonderful member of this community. I didn't that
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 1: he wasn't who I was thinking of. Right. The point
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: is is that it's okay to say I thought I
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 1: was getting something else, and I don't. I don't like
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 1: what I'm getting. If enough of folks on the right
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 1: don't stand up and do that, you're going to lose
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: the entire conservative movement for a generation. And maybe it's earned.
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, this decision to go down this Donald Trump
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 1: lane has totally Anybody who is trying to claim what
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 1: Trump is doing as conservative literally doesn't know the definition
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 1: of conservative. I don't think there's a single thing he's
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 1: done that meets the definition of conservative. However, whatever definition
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 1: you want to come up with, he's nowhere near it.
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: So look, I think I think that you, David, can
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 1: can tell people, Hey, I let me tell you what happens.
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you what I thought America was. Please
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 1: don't let America become what I just had to deal
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: with with the Russians. Right, So, David, your stories are
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: important to share. So share your stories with fellow Americans
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: so they can understand and let them know why you
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 1: came here and why you're why you're wondering what is
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: this place now? But the point is silence new sort
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: of acquiescence. You know whatever, I think you know. I
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: think Trump eventually assumes he'll wear people down. That's the
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 1: other thing. Don't don't get discouraged. And this is what
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: I've tried to be very careful here. I don't want
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 1: to discourage people that the system is broken and it's unfixable.
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 1: Human beings, we can we can restore. We can do this.
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: We recovered from a civil war. We've we've done a lot,
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 1: We're capable of a lot. We just have to put
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 1: our we have to put our minds to it. And
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: it is time to eradicate this country of this virus.
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: This of this virus that is running through a small
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: portion of the country that is now empowered some radical folks,
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 1: and we've all got to do our part. And the
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: more we can do it within the framework of the Constitution,
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 1: the better off will be in the future. I understand
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 1: people questioning whether any of this is going to matter,
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 1: but in the overly quoted words, I think it's a
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: Ben Franklin. But we can all decide if somebody else
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 1: that's d it to republic, if we can keep it,
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: let's try to keep it because we have forces that
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: are trying to lose it. I'll see in forty eight
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 1: hours two