Latest / 52 Cues - A Production Music and Sync Podcast / All About the Production Music Association with Morgan McKnight

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All About the Production Music Association with Morgan McKnight · 52 Cues - A Production Music and Sync Podcast

• 0:29
  Dave Kropf: Hello, everybody, this is Dave Kropf.
• 0:29
  Dave Kropf: I just wanted to let you know that there's only one week left to register for the summer 2022 mastermind with only two seats remaining. So if you're feeling stuck with static courses or video curriculum and you're looking for professional mentoring, weekly accountability, and you're serious about making real progress towards a sustainable career in the production music industry, then check out the 52 cues mastermind I really think it's absolutely for you. This 12 week program begins on July 11, and has weekly interactive zoom meetings where we workshop ideas and network with other like minded composers and producers. We're going to discuss strategies and practices for production music, we take deep dives into industry topics and we listen to each other's cues and give feedback all in an open yet candid forum. Plus, you get three private one on one sessions with me that's a $225 value, where we're going to take a hands on look into your composition and production process, mixing and mastering techniques and together, we work towards your goals as a production music composer. So if you're seriously ready to supercharge your career and Production Music, then head over to 52 cues.com/mastermind22 That's 52 cues.com/mastermind22, and sign up today.
• 1:57
  Dave Kropf: Registration ends July 8, and there are only two seats left. Once again, 52 cues.com/mastermind22.
• 2:15
  Dave Kropf: Directors, cinematographers, editors, costume designers, makeup artists, even hairstylists...so many of the folks involved in the process of creating film and television have their own organizations, which work on their behalf to ensure their members are treated and compensated fairly. And while yes, there is the American Federation of Musicians and the Society of Composers and Lyricists, production music composers didn't really have a singular voice speaking to the industry until 1997 When the Production Music Association or PMA was formed. So on today's episode, I thought it'd be a really good idea to sit down and chat with PMA Executive Director Morgan McKnight, who answers questions about the organization what the PMA does for composers in the business, the specific challenges composers of library music face and how the PMA annual conference in LA is a perfect opportunity for both publishers and composers to connect and network. Plus, we take a listen to a pop EDM cue from you a member of the 52 cues community on this week's episode of the 52 Cues podcast.
• 3:34
  Dave Kropf: What is happening everybody? This is Dave Kropf.
• 3:34
  Dave Kropf: And welcome back to another episode of the 52 Cues podcast. I do hope that you're having a stellar week and I thank you for spending part of your day with me. I know you have a ton of options out there. So please know that you are very much appreciated. The 52 Cues podcast is a weekly podcast dedicated to all things production and library music where we talk about industry topics and take deep dives into the different aspects of being a working production music composer. Plus, we feature a cue written by a member of the 52 cues community and this week, we'll be taking a listen to Pegasus rising, which is a pop EDM cue written by a community member, Jerome dotato. So you definitely want to stick around for that. But before we get started, I have to give a special word of thanks to the family, friends and patrons of 52 cues, who helped keep the podcast the channel and everything here going. We are 100% community supported. So if you like what I do here, don't think me think them. But if you do want to learn more about how you can help support 52 cues, unlock extra perks like live streams, workshops, interactive feedback and a ton more than be sure to click on the links in the description or stick around because we're going to talk about that a little bit later. In today's episode a few years ago, I was so excited to find the Production Music Association, PMA for short.
• 4:58
  Dave Kropf: Because I was I noticed that organizations like the Federation or the American Federation of Musicians, the musicians union, or the different guilds and organizations didn't really represent the Production Music side of things. And so knowing that in 1997, a team of publishers and libraries got together to make sure that that US production music composers didn't get really kind of kind of wrong bowled over in terms of royalties, that that that was so vitally needed.
• 5:34
  Dave Kropf: So when I had the opportunity recently to sit down and talk to Morgan McKnight, the executive director of the PMA, I was more than happy to oblige. So here is my recent live q&a that we hosted over at 52 cues.com. And my time with her, I want to thank I want to thank you so much for joining me for this interview, I am so glad to be talking to Morgan McKnight of the Production Music Association at aka the PMA. And she is the executive director of the Production Music Association, which is an organization which exists to further awareness and work on behalf of production music composers. Morgan, thank you so much for joining us here at 52 cues.
• 6:20
  Morgan McKnight: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
• 6:23
  Dave Kropf: Yeah, it's really great. You know, I've gotten I've gotten to plenty of the coffee hours you know, and the the myriad workshops and, and lectures and things like that, that you that you host over at PMA and it's really nice to have you kind of over here at 52 cues and was really excited when you were able to to give us a little bit of your time. But let's first start by just having you maybe tell a little bit about yourself and then tell a little bit about what PMA actually is and what it does.
• 6:55
  Morgan McKnight: Sure, sure, sure. So I have been with the PMA for goodness gracious, this is my seventh year. So I'm rounding out my seventh year with them. Before that, I help you know various marketing roles and kind of events production within marketing and digital marketing and social and those kinds of roles right out of undergrad out of college until I decided to get my Master's in music industry administration from CSUN. So that really like started the transition from traditional you know, marketing roles or other media company roles into the music business, I came across the the PMA as I was wrapping up that degree and one thing led to another and here I am seven years later. So it was an interesting transition. And so to the space, I didn't know anything about production music at the time, I'm outside of the fact that I you know, knew it was background-ish, right on. And I knew there was music and TV and film. So I kind of put two and two together and and, you know, came to some conclusions on my own, but through that really learn the business. And again, here I am, I am seven years later.
• 8:13
  Morgan McKnight: So, you know, the the organization was started in 1997 by a group of publishers, you know, really essentially to combat-- there was a broadcaster issue, I guess, too, without getting into the weeds too much. There was a broadcaster issue that publishers decided to come together on and really say, hey, you know, this is a time to to band together and create an association that can represent our best interests, publicly, privately, whatever. So the PMA was born through that they went through years and years and years of being a very specific publisher, you know, groups specific to the production music space. And then about, you know, 10, five to 10 years or so ago, we expanded into, we expanded the community rights, and they'll have composer members and student members and, you know, technology partner members, and so on and so forth. So, you know, there's a lot of work that that we do, and we operate under three different pillars of, you know, what I will call our pillars of work each day, its education, its community, and its advocacy.
• 9:21
  Morgan McKnight: They're fairly straightforward, but to dive, you know, in a bit deeper advocacy being anything from, you know, legislative pressure or input on legislation input with the CRB we have regular meetings with PROs on their payment structures--and/or lack thereof of payment structures--in certain media or mediums. I will say those are, you know, the top level were members of the digital creative coalition. So anything that, you know, we finally have a voice that would say, from the production use a move standpoint, we haven't had, even 10 years ago, we didn't have so we're finally in a lot of these meetings and conversations that, you know, they should have been in years ago, but that's, you know, the advocacy side of it.
• 10:09
  Morgan McKnight: It translates into education. I mean, it's all related, right? Like there were three pillars and they all are and they break throughout the year.
• 10:13
  Morgan McKnight: Education is educating both internally and externally. We educate on, you know, business practices, anything from basic level like traditional standard business deals. Um, trends in the industry kind of what we're seeing as far as best practices, dangers of certain things or certain models or you know, things to watch out for. It's, it's, you know, it's also internal education to industry partners, right suit to other folks in the music business, specifically, publishing the larger publishing space. And I think that's, you know, again, just really fighting for that seat at the table. But there's a lot of, you know, misunderstanding and even just across publish across the publishing space, because we're such a niche and specific group, right. So educating both internally within the music business and externally, within, you know, to public or public composers, or musicians or so on and so forth.
• 11:18
  Morgan McKnight: And then community really just drives all of that, right, we've seen, especially now over the digital, you know, the digital influx and the streaming services and all of the best struggles.
• 11:33
  Morgan McKnight: As creatives in the music business, it's really is the time to band together, right community is, I think, more important now than ever, although I would argue that it's always been really important. But you know, for argument's sake, it's important right now and so to have a community focused and working towards the same goal, there's strength in numbers, and that is essentially, you know, the the role of the community that we have here. There's, you know, self serving things within the community aspect as well, we do a lot of helping composers find good publishers, or, you know, just a little bit of matchmaking in that regard. But, um, you know, that's, I guess, the surface level, the association without spending 30 minutes talking about...
• 12:19
  Dave Kropf: One of the things that I immediately noticed, going to my first, you know, kind of weekly Zoom Zoom meeting was that I was side by side in the same Zoom Room with publishers, with libraries with industry folks, we, you know, might be somebody from Avid or it could be somebody from, you know, tune SAT or something like that.
• 12:38
  Dave Kropf: And, like, my, my, my representative from CSAC, my PRO represent so bringing, not to mention composers, so bringing all of these different aspects of the production music world, to the same table, I thought was really, really, really valuable. And then, you know, we would split off into into breakout rooms, and I'm sitting in a room, you know, it's me and six other folks from all different walks of all different sides of the industry. Was that something that that PMA consciously did? It's not just publishers, it's not just PROs. Yeah.
• 13:16
  Unknown: We, I definitely. It was really, like 3, 3-4 years ago, the space just started changing, right. And I think that, you know, publishers in that regard, were conscious of composer issues, but not maybe proactive on composer issues. And I felt like, you know, the there are there is overlap with other associations and other right, like, we understand that getting music into media is not a singular path. So there's, there's overlapping, there's other associations that do other things, like the Society of composers and lyricists, like, you know, the guild of music supervisors, you know, those those things, those associations exist, focus in on their craft, right, like they focus in on for example, the SCL is very focused in on on film, like score, right?
• 14:05
  Unknown: Film Score, that's, that's really kind of the, if you drill down the specifics of them and what their focus is, it's film score stuff, right, and kind of that custom, you know, composition, world.
• 14:18
  Morgan McKnight: Production Music didn't have that they had publishers, and it was great, right, like they had the, the majors, they had a board, like it was very established, it was great. But they were missing the publisher composer relationship, and the nurturing of the composer and publisher relationship. And that can be said for tech partners as well, right? What we found what I found over the years with that, we have to in order to get what we want and need out of the larger music business, we have to be represented accurately and like the most robust festival, you know, we didn't have a seat at the table. So we had to build, you know, build the reputation, build the organization builds, you know, the initiatives, build the advocacy that builds, build it up, and then again, strengthen the community that we had, so that composers know that that working with us or being a part of our community, they're not going to, you know, necessarily get thrown in with a really shitty library that's going to take all of your writers share. So it's fostering like security and community again, I'm gonna say community probably million times
• 15:28
  Dave Kropf: you're preaching preaching to the choir here. That's
• 15:33
  Unknown: a shot every time I say community. No, I'm just kidding. Um, yeah, so it wasn't like that it we had to very intentionally welcome people into the community and kind of just keep our arms open for whenever that that time came, and over time, it happened. And and, you know, the I think that again, the relationship between publisher and composer has strengthened you know, I, a lot of positives have come out of it, we do have, you know, our tech partners really engaged and involved. And I'm very careful in that regard.
• 16:05
  Unknown: Like, I don't generally throw sales at people if it's not a real viable solution for a problem that our industry has. So it is very intentional, it is very tailored to the community. And I think we, in the growth in itself, like I think has had demonstrated that, you know, we found success in that on a larger, you know, not internally not as a business but literally like success in getting seats at the table and legislative conversations, right? They didn't have so that is that's, that's I'm talking about here. It's not personal, but the public success that the industry is hot.
• 16:45
  Dave Kropf: Yeah, cook. Because I mean, this, the Production Music Industry just goes. It's the unsung heroes of so much television and film that gets made is in the world of Production Music, and not a lot of folks. You know, I talked to students all the time who've never heard of Production Music, they think that an episode of Toddlers and Tiaras has a composer who is scoring and just like, you know, John Williams scores Indiana Jones. And so having, you know, an organization that represents our specific interests and our specific challenges, I think is hugely beneficial, you know, short of having no a union or an official kind of guild or something like that.
• 17:26
  Dave Kropf: Speaking of challenges, Are there aspects of the production music world that you think that that PMA can can can better serve? Rather than, you know, a SEO or something like that? Just because because PMA knows Production Music, so well?
• 17:46
  Unknown: Yeah, I mean, I think any any, I think, I think we always will offer a unique perspective to any of the challenges that are currently facing.
• 17:52
  Unknown: Right. One of the big initiatives that we're working on is revolves around payments for ads and promos and streaming services that they currently don't exist right now. You don't see anything at all, which obviously, is the problem, right? Their performance and and you deserve to be paid on them. So you know, it, there are things that are very specific to our industry that we, you know, fight for, or just make sure that we're not like left out of that conversation.
• 18:21
  Morgan McKnight: You know, there there is another I don't know how much I can say on this. But there's another I will say, What can I say social media platform that has hinted at saying that, you know, Production Music isn't going to be counted in settlement things or dollar things associated with dollars. So those are the very specific, like targeted things that come up, that we do, you know, address head on every time like discovery, there was a situation with discovery at the end of 2019, where they wanted to basically get rid of you and get rid of performance royalties, they really just wanted to bypass the PRO and it caused the scene it was mad composers jumped on it, right. It was a very public plague. No, absolutely not, you know, we had private meetings with them.
• 19:14
  Morgan McKnight: So those are situations that, you know, pop up where we are very, those are very specific to Production Music and to production, Music Publishing, right. And there is overlap, right, we do engage on like the, you know, Spotify, the DSPS conversations and rates because, you know, yeah.
• 19:37
  Morgan McKnight: It's not as like, it doesn't probably affect us as much as it does, you know, maybe a different organization, not saying that libraries don't and artists obviously, don't put their music on Spotify and other you know, streaming services.
• 19:48
  Morgan McKnight: But sometimes a library doesn't, you know, it's a little bit different of a game. So it's not like the number one priority for us, although it is it's hard to explain, but it is impacted by us.
• 20:01
  Morgan McKnight: But it's--I wouldn't say we were like a number one group that's impacted by that. So where we lend our support and engage in that regard, there are very specific things that come up mainly with broadcasters and with PROs and an international international need, like it's a very, very complicated business when you start going beyond like the US and beyond North America. So there's issues you know, Safe Harbor International Safe Harbor conversations that are very, you know, impactful for us. So, it depends on what the problems are really in the world or in the industry at the time. But yeah, I do say that there are very specific things that come up that are our production music publisher and composer issues that, you know, we we take lead on, and then others that we signed support off, right. So we definitely collaborate in that regard. But each kind of takes their their lead where appropriate.
• 20:58
  Dave Kropf: Okay, excellent. Excellent. And as a reminder for you folks hanging out live today, if you have a question for Morgan, you can just raise your hand there in the Zoom chat, and we will get you unmuted if you have question for Morgan otherwise, I'm gonna keep keep trucking along.
• 21:13
  Dave Kropf: It's interesting that you mentioned streaming royalties, because that I feel like that's the next frontier, you know, whether it's, you know, the Netflix's or the Amazon Prime's or, you know, Spotify, I feel like the network's in the PR rows have kind of things sorted out, you know, Nielsen ratings and everything, but, but where do you think that's gonna go? And I know, this is just, you know, wild guessing. But something's got to give, because so much television is getting made, and every new peacock Paramount plus or whatever, Apple TV, they're all starting, and they're all just consuming so much TV that has so much production music. So how do we move the needle on that?
• 21:56
  Unknown: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, there's a couple things I will say on this, a on one hands, I think the needle is moving, I think that the there there has to be a very deep understanding that when we're talking about like, the PROs, especially in the States, right, and how we operate as like the free market and the United States and how our PROs are, you know, kind of governed by the CRB and those things, they're technically like government agencies, right. So unlike knowing that we have to start, you know, understanding that things in the government take a really long time, a really long time. So like, we can pressure the copyright royalty board, and we can, you know, what I mean, but they've even been in appeals for the last four years. So, my, the way that I envision, there's the future, I would say, in this space, I think it'll figure itself out, I think it'll work itself out, I know, the PROs will get their act together and get licenses proper licenses in place at some point, I know that, you know, at some point, there's going to be a legislative push on members of Congress that, you know, to get the data from our social media platforms and or reclassify them as publisher or set, you know, what I mean, there are things that we're looking at, again, it's it's very much a pick your poison, pick your pick your poison, what issue do you want to tackle first and prioritize?
• 23:33
  Unknown: So you know, but again, on that hand, I the PROs do, do do their jobs, it just is a little bit delayed sometimes, and it takes them a little bit longer to get negotiated licenses in place, you know, and so on, and so forth. As far as the rates go. You know, there, there's a couple of things that we're looking at, it's, it's, we, where I'm from, I'm honestly from the the mind of, we don't necessarily, we just want the accurate data, right. So if we, if my show or my song was in a show on Netflix, that only, you know, played a total of, like, 10 times, because, you know, no one watched it, then we should be able to see those 10 plays, you know, and that should be it should be very clear accounting and my, from my perspective, in that regard, right, we have the data, this is tech, like, the connection and the withholding of data to protect, it's silly, and I just think we need to move past that and get into the technology that already exists to solve that problem. But I do think that the PROs are, are working, are working on that. And I know that you know, again, from a rate perspective, it's tough.
• 24:52
  Unknown: It's that's a really really really it's, it's going to be very difficult to advocate and achieve a rate increase on streaming like for for the I'm talking about the like the Netflix and the Hulu and stuff, not the DSP so for the streaming the streamer services for TV, or film, video, whatever. I feel like they'll want to come to some happy medium at some point.
• 25:22
  Dave Kropf: Well, this is this is assuming that the royalty free subscription guys don't come in and start
• 25:30
  Unknown: I'm not going to everyone is I love this conversation, they totally serve a purpose. Like, let me be very, very, very clear, they totally serve a purpose. They have a main, the micro licensing is a saying, you know, we do know that there's certain usages of a certain library in Netflix shows and they have an agreement with them. So that's a very, it's a valid question. It will never replace the publishing, it will never replace production music from a from a royalty perspective. They the royalty free and it honestly really depends on what we're calling royalty free, right? Because there are libraries marketing themselves as royalty free, that are not royalty free, you do get your performance royalties, you just may not get you know, upfront, it depends, right? It depends what we're talking about. Um, you know, so But But on that note, the money while they serve a purpose, right, and they do, you know, utilize or they are utilized, I would say way more so in the digital space, because they're not utilized at all really in the broadcast space.
• 26:40
  Unknown: But I get it right for influencers for YouTubers, like for people that make their own content make it does make sense, right? It is an extra, maybe, you know, three $3 or, you know, whatever, you get off the pre sale from, you know, the, I'm not gonna name library names? Um, no, you're good. So if it's not going to take the place of exclusive publishers, because the money isn't exclusive publishers, because the broadcaster's use exclusive publishing, because they do and they will, and they're not going to. They try see discovery tried to go that direction and didn't work out for them. So, yeah, I mean, there's there's, they're always going to ask, we have broadcasters asking more and more for like kickback, rev share deals, or, you know, we'll we'll find you into we'll sign you as a library, if you give us you know, 25% of your publishing.
• 27:35
  Unknown: And so there is a lot of that going on, it's never going to go away. But the royalty free market is not going to replace this market. So you think anything?
• 27:45
  Dave Kropf: Okay, it's a lot, you think it's a lot of unnecessary hand wringing.
• 27:50
  Unknown: I don't think it's unnecessary, I think that it serves a purpose. And I don't think it's going to go anywhere, but I think it serves a purpose, right. And again, it might change. And I personally believe that the PROs once, you know, federal licenses in place, are in place on some of the social media platforms and others, that maybe it is less royalty free, or less, you know, performance free music being used are less micro licensing stuff. And maybe it is, you know, we do see a shift there. But until then, right, it's, there's levels to composition and more. And I said at the beginning, there's not one pathway to take to get your music into media. So take them all, take on the past, you want to build your royalties, and compound your back end as much as you possibly can. So I always say and recommend that you kind of categorize it out, prioritize it out, we have exclusive libraries, that you know, where it would be your top priority, and maybe you you make like three or four different sets of five exclusive libraries. And then you have some non exclusive libraries underneath that. And then maybe some, you know, quote, unquote, royalty free libraries under that, and you submit your music like in order of priority, right, and you work yourself down the line, if you don't hear back here, you go here, you don't hear back here, you go here. And maybe you get that batch of songs in on the third tier, and maybe your next batch Shopback batch of songs. Goodness, your next batch of songs gets in on the first year, maybe the next one after that comes in and a royalty free, right.
• 29:18
  Unknown: But either way, they're working for you. Right? So you know, again, there's not a ton of money in micro licensing, there's not a ton of money in the non exclusive libraries, the royalty free libraries, there's not a ton of money in there, is there money there? Absolutely, it can be found it can be had. It's not a lot. We're not talking about, you know, trailer budgets or things of that regard. But again, an extra $3 on your royalty check, you have four you get an extra $12. And then that's, you know what I mean, every year after year, it's an extra $20. And it just kind of builds on that. So that's what I always recommend.
• 29:58
  Unknown: They serve a purpose. But make sure you understand what that purpose is and definitely don't put all of your eggs into that basket.
• 30:05
  Dave Kropf: Yeah, and that's good. I think that that you know, keep a level head you don't have to run around like the sky is falling, but but just you know, proceed with caution. It's kind of like the AI discussion and we're gonna have an upcoming podcast episode about AI and I see a lot of hand wringing from composers thinking that robots are going to come take our job check our jobs, it's just not going to happen. You mentioned you mentioned exclusivity and non exclusive and which which begs another question, which again, is hand wringing that I'm seeing actually coming from the libraries, which is content ID algorithms, which can identify and fingerprint songs. And so I see, I see that as a disrupter for the non exclusive folks for the use of loops and samples, causing issues, because I'm starting to get like updated contracts from my library saying, hey, no splice loops. Yeah, you know, so
• 31:01
  Unknown: We encourage that people to not use loops, it is a very big problem. And it really just ties up your money. So that's that it just comes down to that, like you don't want your money tied up. So when we are very, very, very short, we have a PMA Academy session on loops and samples to I'm happy to send the link if if you want to share your percent I absolutely would vary it is it's not just a legal risk, it is a monetary risk it is it is a little bit of a reputational risk. I'm not I do not come from the like, don't work with those kinds of libraries minds at all, I just feel like, what I will say is, it helps to a don't use loops, sample loops, or don't use loops at all in your songs like just don't, don't do that. And I'll set an academy, the Academy video, and you guys can dive deep down that hole, it's a very deep one, I'll let you dive.
• 31:55
  Morgan McKnight: But if you are working with you know, nonexclusive, I just I say always treat your music treat everywhere your music goes, like it's the only place like that is exclusive. So even if it's not exclusive, treat it like it is. So there is no confusion, right? So you don't have your same song and 40 different libraries or even five different non exclusive libraries, just what are whether the library calls themself one thing or another thing doesn't matter. You treat your music, like it's exclusive to that library every time that will prevent headaches that will prevent, you know, the that admin stuff up, but just who what publisher to pay, it'll eliminate it, you know, a grip of things. So that's what I recommend, again, to each their own, you all are very much entitled to do otherwise.
• 32:45
  Dave Kropf: No, no, well, yeah, well, I produce, I produce a lot of hip hop, right amongst, you know, you know, tension, music and all that other kind of stuff. And one of the challenges I have is getting, getting an order from a library wanting something that sounds like authentically sampled hip hop. But you know, there's, there's no upfront it's all on spec. And like, do you expect me to record a live horn section, sample it and then repurpose it. And so that's that's the the rub that I'm finding is is not using samples and loops, like just a collage, you know, and call it composition, but trying to create a style of music, like sample based hip hop, that's authentic to the style with no upfront money, and make it using the tools that are available. So that's the challenge that I find in using loops and samples.
• 33:36
  Unknown: Yeah, it's a good point. And I don't disagree with that it is a challenge. It can be hard to get creative and make sounds that aren't already out there don't sound like anything else, you know, 1,000% You know it? There are ways to obviously use samples and tweak the sound. So it doesn't, you know, so it isn't new sounding like there are ways to tweak again, our composers and and some others do get into so a lot of that on that video. So I am going to share it because I think it would be very helpful. But I think the bottom line is, you know, there Well, there's two things I will say to that point. There are ways to tweak samples, and I'm not, you know, I'm saying don't use them without, like, don't just use the methods, don't just throw samples and call it a day and be like, I've got a great loop, like instrumental Hip Hop track, like it's probably not going to be good, right? So it changed it up, like how can you add to it? How can you, you know, whatever, make it sound a little bit different.
• 34:41
  Unknown: The flip the other side of that, that I will just briefly touch on is I do think there is a need, personally from my perspective from where I'm sitting to for us to encourage libraries and others to revert back in some cases and or adopt readopt or adopt in the first place more of an upfront fee. Minimal even for composers and library situations. So we'll talk about that internally at a board level I don't we you know, obviously that's not that's up to every you know, company to decide. But I think that in conversation and just being having candid conversations like this with my board and with other libraries. I have seen a little bit of a turnaround, you know, I have seen and implemented a bit or they've raised the fee or, you know, whatever. So I do think that libraries that Well, I don't think I know libraries exist that do offer up front fees. So I don't want that to be misconstrued. There are libraries, a lot of the exclusive libraries to offer up front fees. And if they don't, they're kind of starting to, again, not all of them, and it depends on their budget obviously, depends on who's running the business.
• 35:53
  Unknown: Yeah. But you know, I think it is, again, it's a great point, and I agree with, you know, it is hard to make something sound new, especially with the amount of music that is out there, especially with no money upfront. So, you know, I think some of that will also like work itself out in the relationships between publishers and composers as like the community continues to like, push forward in this case, especially as we combat digital, you know, so on and so forth. But you know, it, it's tough, it's not impossible to do is what I will say, it's very possible to add the the sound to, you know, to provide layers on the song to make it sound different than what you threw in.
• 36:41
  Dave Kropf: you know, well, you appreciate that.
• 36:41
  Dave Kropf: Thank you. We did get a question from Jesse who had to bounce out but he typed in the chat. He's a relatively new member to PMA wanted to ask what are some of the good ways that that members can engage with PMA throughout the year?
• 36:57
  Unknown: Yeah, great question. So Dave mentioned this briefly, kind of at the top on, we do have virtual networking sessions, once a month for our membership, it is exclusive to memberships. So you know, protect community will provide updates there. And like Dave said, we do break out into breakout rooms, where you get to know our publishers, our board members, other composers, you know, tech, so on and so forth. That is a great way, a really great way to, to be engaged.
• 37:25
  Unknown: We do have and we will be bringing back and I'm not sure where Jesse's as located. But we do have, you know, other in person events that we're going to work on bringing back hopefully, 2023 we don't know, maybe 2024. And maybe we I don't know, maybe never, but things like that, I would say are also very impactful. Any events that we have, I'm reaching out to me, I'm like very, very, always willing to do this, or hop on a one on one or answer whatever, just show up, I'm always like, here to help. I think that that sometimes that people don't want I mean, I was busy, you know, there's a lot to do here. And I know people don't want to, like bother me, but I encourage people to bother me, because I want to talk to all of you, I want to you know, I want to help you, I want to know you, I want to like have you, in the back of my mind, if I hear of an opportunity that makes sense for you. So I think, you know, you get into it as much as you are you get out of it, what you put into it, and that regard and, you know, staying in touch with me and reaching out to me and like touching base and or, or just chat, whatever it can do wonders. You know, again, you're getting what you put in and there are like committees that we have available to volunteer on and be a part of and get engaged with. You know, I mean, there's there's various ways, but I really would say that the, our copy our, like networking sessions are, you know, huge for that, and then, you know, engaging with me so that I can help, you know, direct you and point you in the right direction.
• 39:06
  Dave Kropf: I can confirm that those those networking, coffee hours are fantastic. I had a library which had was was really I was really involved with in 2018 and 2019. And it just kind of, you know, just kind of cooled the relationship cooled as it does sometimes. And we were in a breakout room together. I'm like, Hey, I know you and then we reconnected and then he ordered another album. And so we're gonna we're gonna touch base at the the Production Music, the PMA conference, and we're gonna have, you know, we're gonna go grab a pint. And so that would not have happened. If, if I you, whatever, I don't know what universal algorithm went through to put me and Martin in the same room. But it was really, really great. And that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had that event to go to,
• 39:52
  Unknown: You know, universe, the universe...how would you have done that? Because I didn't know.
• 39:56
  Unknown: You know, what's crazy are the stories. I hear these stories all the time. And it comes from the coffee hours. It comes from the conference all the time, just hey, we met so and so through this and now we're working together like the amount of success stories that I've heard a keeps me going but be again, like we were just really moving the needle as an industry and the collaborative nature of this industry is expanding this industry and I know you know they've you mentioned that It's like a majority of news that you hear on TV and we're gonna we're gonna release a study we just finished that says that exactly that, that that Production Music is the majority holder of, of music on broadcast and you know broadcast and cable. And it's by a longshot. Yeah. So it's Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's moving the needle, collaboratively collectively Yeah.
• 40:57
  Dave Kropf: And I want to I want to encourage anybody who's watching this, whether you know, you're a 52 cues member, if you're watching this in the in the podcast episode. If even if you're brand new to the industry, jumping in, and just surrounding yourself, again, with other people who are brand new people who have libraries, folks who have done like Marvel trailers, and, and all in between PRO representatives, it's really, really fascinating. And you will go in there and field weigh in over your head. That was me, that's me practically like every other of those things that go in and like, wow, they are swimming in such deep waters that is so far beyond me. But just to sit there and absorb it and realize that you're shoulder to shoulder with these, these professionals is really, really cool. You mentioned the conference. So I want to take a moment to just talk about the conference. It's a it's in September, September 21 to 24th. I believe.
• 41:54
  Unknown: 23rd. 21 through 23. We won't keep you on a Saturday.
• 41:59
  Dave Kropf: I think I think my flight back is on a Saturday. I think that's why I think that but talk a little bit about the conference, what the conference is about? What who all can go and yeah, just talk about the PMA conference.
• 42:12
  Unknown: Yeah. Oh, goodness, I love the conference. I'm super biased, but also unbiased, because again, the amount of success stories have come out of the conference specifically are just overwhelming like it. And to be fair, Dave, I feel the same way as you when I go to the conference.
• 42:28
  Unknown: I'm also overwhelmed. And I feel like I'm way over my head. So you, none of you guys are alone in that regard. I always feel that way too. You Yeah, you know, it started in like 2013, or 2014, I can't remember the exact year that they launched, it was a one day conference had about 100 people attend in pre COVID, we were up to like 700 750, folks, over a period of like three and a half, four days. So a ton of growth.
• 42:56
  Morgan McKnight: It is an international like gathering place, we get sub publishers and producers and Grammy winners and Oscar winners that Emmy winners like from the music space. From all over the globe come over this year, we are transitioning a bit back into like more full in person stuff, we do have one full virtual day to just accommodate additional content and anyone that he doesn't feel comfortable in person or be can't can't make it for any specific reason. So it's a bit of a hybrid situation this year. But yeah, it is a, you know, full blown conference of panel sessions workshops will do roundtables that are very much like intimate, kind of like this, right? Really, you know, intimate conversations where you sit with folks from libraries, or tech or PROs, or whatever, and really get one on one what's really like 10, 15 on one, but it's intimate conversation, right? And it really is productive for folks. You know, sponsors all of that.
• 44:02
  Morgan McKnight: It's it's, yeah, I mean, we I have like some things I can't really I want to talk about I can't talk about yet, because we haven't publicly announced them. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's it's a phenomenal, phenomenal conference, we have an award show that is called the mark awards, that is a part of it, it takes place on that Thursday evening. Again, no, it is probably the best opportunity you have to network and be in the same room. As people, there is a ton of work that can be done ahead of time in the day, this helps with the over-your-head-ness. And when I when I tell people, there's work to be done ahead of time, like we will open up you know, our attendance and our app and all those things early. Let you guys kind of set meetings and find out who's going to be there and you know, doing some of that, like pre work really helps maximize like the conference experience because it is a lot going on, there will be panels happening at the same time. But if you kind of have that schedule, and like, you know, do that homework ahead of time, you know, who you want to meet with, you know, who's going to be there, you know, so on and so forth. So, it makes it a little bit like easier to I would say be there and not feel like you have no idea what's going on.
• 45:17
  Morgan McKnight: Yeah, I mean, it's you know, panels are we discussed business stuff. So anything from specific territories. We have a you know, a focus on Europe panel that we do almost every year with the IPMG that really touches on are, you know, other territories? I know this year we are doing a focus on South Africa or focus on Africa, I'm sorry, Africa, as well, which we haven't done so just territorial like business things that maybe we don't we're not aware of, we're gonna do a panel on broadcast mechanicals, because there's actually like a decent, you know, market and broadcast mechanicals internationally for us composers. So there's, there's, there's just revenue streams that people may be missing out on.
• 45:55
  Morgan McKnight: So, I mean, it's very educational. It's a ton of information. And then we do have like composer tracks that we'll talk about, or creative tracks in summary, that get into like, you know, we're gonna look at mixing and mastering for more like immersive sounds right? What that looks like, from a compositional standpoint, meaning, you know, VR games or just immersive experiences, Dolby, whatever, like how that how that impacts and how to, like, you know, navigate immersive sounds.
• 46:20
  Morgan McKnight: Yeah, I mean, it covers business side that covers creative, it's really anything and everything in between, and is very specific to the production music industry in space. So again, great, great crowd, international crowd, and you're probably expecting like four to 500 people this year. And, you know, again, just every from from everywhere from all walks of life and all kinds of territories.
• 46:47
  Dave Kropf: Speaking of international, I actually got a question from one of our members who lives in India. And so he Hey, Dominic, I know he's watching. He's not able to come to the conference.
• 46:57
  Dave Kropf: And his question was the value of PMA specifically for international members, especially if they can't come to the conference. Is PMA kind of US centric, or what about the international footprint that PMA has for folks?
• 47:14
  Unknown: Yeah, yeah, we have a big international footprint, um, you know, especially from the composer side, it's so up until, you know, I would say, last year or the year before, we really were the only like Association within the space. So we did have partnerships and international with international trade groups that that, you know, operate in their territories. And we obviously, there was a Production Music committee working in Europe and European territories, and they have been there for a while, but it wasn't really like membership base, it was just kind of a board. And, and it was really more like top level. They have expanded that since then.
• 47:53
  Morgan McKnight: So the IPMG, which is the International Production Music Group. Now, they do have publisher members, and they do generally, you know, we certainly do let them take the lead on European policy. Because America has enough policy to deal with on our own. So but but it's very collaborative. And and I think that's very specific to European territories, and again, to publishers. So just from the, from our perspective, right, we are an international association. The time differences do get a bit a bit tough. I mean, India, I'm not entirely I don't know the the time difference of India to you know, us. But if time difference wasn't an issue, then taking advantage of obviously, the virtual coffee hours or networking sessions, again, very valuable for people, no matter where you are, attending the conference virtually is also an option. So you should absolutely do that there will be engagement, there will be like an app that you can, you know, communicate in lifetime, like people that are at the conference. So it is will be very, like intertwined. I do see value. No, I don't know, you know, it depends on I guess what his his goal is, and what you know, the overall goal of any composer really is I turned plenty of composers away and told them to sign up with the SCL instead. But yeah, I mean, it depends what your goals are, but we absolutely are international on it.
• 49:24
  Morgan McKnight: And you know, if we can work with a schedule or I'm always happy to like change our times and do a later later session or whatever it's like accommodate our different international members wherever they are. It would just really, you know, if that would be wanted, if we had the membership to do that, we would absolutely do that. So I think we are very international and we can certainly help to some regard I'm very available to help facilitate introductions and kind of help navigate careers and give best advice where I can I don't think you have to be in the States right and you know, I think that applies no matter where you are for me and for us. So yeah, I just think there's value in it for sure. I always have but it depends on on you and what your goals are and you know what you are hoping to achieve.
• 50:13
  Dave Kropf: So for for somebody considering PMA and going to the conference and there are composer what should be their expectations and what should they what should they come? Should they come with like a press kit and a bunch of business cards and CDs and thumb drives or how can a composer coming in To the conference best get the most out of it.
• 50:32
  Unknown: Yeah, good question. So I will reiterate this, I think doing the homework ahead of time is very, very, very important. If you have a list of libraries that you'd like trying, even trying to, you know, get into, that's a great place to start make a list. Try to find out you know, who's gonna be there from those companies, you can ask me you can look online once we open up our, you know, the portal that that'll open up for virtual and for the app and such. Yeah, I mean, it. Do your homework? Like my biggest number one? Oh, yes, you should have your music readily available to play, or, or share that music to be, you know, just buildings, right? We're not no, you know, the standard link sharing whatever, unless you have it on on your phone and, you know, can can do a quick listening session that happens. You know, business cards 1,000% I think from a composer perspective, business cards are important, the music is going to be more important, but getting the like, face to name, like remember, like, the really like establishing the relationship is the most important, 'cause I know...
• 51:44
  Dave Kropf: Right? That that's, that's what, that's what the folks that talked to me, it's like, okay, hey, you're coming to you're coming to LA, let's go, Greg, which is completely outside of any panel or anything, let's just go to dinner, because that's where relationships really, really happen, you know?
• 52:00
  Unknown: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it, it does.
• 52:00
  Unknown: And it happened. I mean, we'll have our publishers and our sub publishers go do their own thing or have meetings throughout it is very much but but you have to know who's going to be there, and try to set those meetings ahead of time. Otherwise, they're going to be in meetings all day, and you're gonna, you know, it's you have to do do the work ahead of time. As much as much as and as best as you can. That's what I would say is come prepared, know who you want to meet with, make a list, cross them out, as you meet with them write write notes, and then you have things to follow up on so but but be intentional with it, right? Like you don't go don't go into it hoping to meet everybody or or maybe even like, I only want to meet universal or whatever, right? Like be flexible be cast, cast a decently sized net, I would say and create a list of folks that you just admire major libraries and dependent libraries, other composers, you know, find out who's going to be their international like sub publishers, obviously, for for US based publishers that don't have self publishing or relationships in other territories that a lot of the work they do ahead of time is find out who from what territory is going to be where. So that that is very, very impactful.
• 53:11
  Morgan McKnight: From a composer standpoint, coming in, yes, how to read music ready, have it.
• 53:17
  Morgan McKnight: I mean, I always recommend having music that isn't, you know, licensed along with obviously, like your, you know, showcase your best work. But the last thing you obviously want to do is play, you know, play something for someone that loves it, and it's not available for years. Like you can get away with that and just say I can make something similar, but it's sometimes a damages relationships, so you know what I mean? So having just a variety, but also understanding like, Do you have a batch of songs that are kind of one shot that that even? That might be ready? Right away? Right? That's good. Depending on who you're talking to.
• 53:53
  Dave Kropf: We have we have a couple of minutes left, I just want to, to remind you, if anybody is tuning in live and want to if you want to ask a question, just raise your hand or you can type it in the chat Happy, happy to have you chat directly with Morgan. But yeah, I'm really looking forward.
• 54:10
  Dave Kropf: And it's been a very, very long time since I've been to LA so I've already booked my hotel and it's a it's at the Omni Hotel, right? And so, I'm not even gonna like fuss with like an Uber or car.
• 54:21
  Dave Kropf: I'm just gonna go right there. And, and we're trying to work it out to where Shannon can come as well. And so we'll have the whole like Kropf delegation, and we are going to be planning for any 52 cues member who is going to the PMA conference, we're going to have a family reunion.
• 54:37
  Dave Kropf: We're going to go grab dinner and an all enjoy each other's company. Enjoy each other's airspace together. So we're gonna we're gonna absolutely do that. Okay, so I'm not seeing any, any questions.
• 54:53
  Dave Kropf: So tell us about where folks can come where folks can go if they're listening to this or if they're watching this, where can they go to find more information about the PMA and about the conference?
• 55:06
  Unknown: Yeah, so everything can be found on our website. It's www.PMAmusic.com. You'll see a PMC page there. Click on that it has scheduled details there now the adding in like specifics of panels and such and speakers here over the next few weeks. But yeah, PMAmusic.com, is the best source of information.
• 55:26
  Dave Kropf: Morgan, thank you so much for joining me and thank you so much for sharing your very valuable time with everybody here at 52 cues. And for the 52 cues podcast, it was great having you on.
• 55:37
  Morgan McKnight: Thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun. I hope it was helpful. And I appreciate you allowing me on.
• 55:43
  Dave Kropf: It was absolutely wonderful. And of course, we'll have all of those links in the description and in the show notes. So be able to, you can go right there to him. Once again, Morgan, thank you so much. Thank you. Once again, I want to extend a special word of thanks to Morgan McKnight from the PMA for joining us for that live q&a. And we will have links to the Production Music Association in the description. So be sure to check that out. Alright, so we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to be listening to a pop EDM cue called Pegasus Rising by Jerome Detotto. And we'll check that out. Right on the other side.
• 56:27
  Shannon Kropf: Hey, y'all, I'm Shannon Kropf. And I want to tell you that the 50 T cues podcast is made possible by viewers and listeners just like you, composers and producers who are looking for a better way to connect and collaborate. You see 50 T cues isn't just another website selling static pre recorded videos to a mass audience. It's a fun, vibrant and positive community that comes together online for sharing cues, getting feedback and discussing what's up in the production music industry. You'll find both personalized feedback and live interaction which are the best and fastest ways to grow your skills and earn more placements. The best part is that the 52 cues community is absolutely free. And when you're ready to take your career to the next level, we offer friends and family subscriptions which unlock weekly live streams, live interactive group feedback sessions, monthly interactive workshops and more. Head over to 52cues.com and sign up today. And while you're there, check out our personalized feedback videos private lessons and of course merch I can't wait to see you at 52cues.com.
• 59:57
  Dave Kropf: All right, that was Pegasus rising by Jerome Detotto. First of all, thank you so much for sending this along. He sent this along in our week 26 search. And so once again, thank you so much for sending this our way. I did enjoy this it kind of had a tropical house flavor to it. And I would probably lean a little bit further in to that kind of this uplifting kind of positive positive EDM vibe, a little bit of a little bit of audio. There's a kind of a gap right hear at the beginning, I would, I would absolutely tighten that up so that its maximum output 200 milliseconds or so at the front end, just to make sure that that it catches any MIDI at the top. But I feel like the opening of this was a little bit too much, too much dead space at the top.
• 1:00:58
  Dave Kropf: Intro might be a little long here. And if I'm counting measures, it feels like it might be (tw)o might be some odd phrasing 3...4...5...6...
• 1:01:06
  Dave Kropf: Alright, so it's kind of six bars, I think you could trim it to, to just four bars and not have a complete... probably start it right there. And four bars might be a little bit too much might just need two bars, and a little rise or some kind of sweeping action kind of kind of pushing into that into that downbeat here. And I think that that really works. As far as like that tropical house kind of kind of vibe to it. Love the little vocal chop thing going on here, maybe put some piano chords underneath it, just just whole notes.
• 1:02:05
  Dave Kropf: I like I liked the bass part there. But I would I would bring the piano and much earlier there you want to put some reverse energy to help to help really sell that drop. Because we want to kind of reverse energy, kind of like the opposite of kind of building in, we want to reverse Alright, now watch, watch out, we kind of got into some detune leads here and we came back and revisited a little bit later. And the drum parts are not sounding like they're in sync through here.
• 1:02:55
  Dave Kropf: So I don't know if it's a dotted eighth 16th like dom ta dom ta dom or if it's a triplet pulse happening at the same time, but it doesn't feel like it's really really locked in And I would put big piano chords underneath.
• 1:03:15
  Dave Kropf: Because you can get away we can get away with those kinds of woody plucks like we had at the beginning and the and the the piano alongside it.
• 1:03:29
  Dave Kropf: Again, more transitional energy.
• 1:03:37
  Dave Kropf: I tell you what I think I think this is how you start the cue. I think I think you bring that piano in nice and early. I think that absolutely works. And again, leading into this drop, you're going to need you're going to just backing up just a little bit, you're going to need more transitional energy, whether it's a reverse kind of sound or whether it's a big riser that that washes over into your breakdown. If we're doing kind of a reverse energy thing like we did a little bit earlier. I would not do a reverse into the breakdown I would I would build it build it and then again think of think of like a big wave crashing and then hitting hitting the shore and kind of kind of going forward and then when it withdraws right as it pulls back what's left you know in the bubbling sands and the skittering sand crabs is going to be your your breakdown. Is is that too, too metaphorical?
• 1:04:41
  Dave Kropf: I like the piano I would not let it I wouldn't let it go this long without some sort of rhythmic element.
• 1:04:57
  Dave Kropf: Right and I think you were feeling that probably can bring it in a little bit earlier I think one phrase earlier and I'm not digging the I'm not I'm not digging that I think we need crisp--some crisp hi hat -- crips hi hat sounds I think will go a long way here.
• 1:05:23
  Dave Kropf: Nice nice riser. And as we're Building, I wouldn't build directly into it, I would pull the energy back. So build, build, build, and then do do a drum fill, and then go into the drop.
• 1:05:49
  Dave Kropf: then you go into, again, we're getting into that kind of multiple drum pulse happening and things are really gelling with the drums. And it's the same part. It's the same thing that we had over here. Now, I do also think that we could benefit from some side chaining here, so that things are pumping and you're good giving are getting a lot of the upbeat action. I feel like that's missing from this.
• 1:06:30
  Dave Kropf: Some nice, nice layering. I think some big some big piano chords would go a long way here as well.
• 1:06:41
  Dave Kropf: And side chaining sidechain that kick Yeah, yeah, absolutely this piano feature, you're ending your cue on it, we started the breakdown with it, 100% You need to start the cue with it. I think that would really bookend it nicely. As opposed to kind of the way we're starting right now. You could...
• 1:07:14
  Dave Kropf: Now, this is gonna be "1". Right? So I think I would absolutely put that at the beginning. And fast forwarding to the end here.
• 1:07:29
  Dave Kropf: Yeah, as an EDM cue, you can get away with endings like this, you don't necessarily, you don't necessarily need need a big strong kind of Tada button, I would probably make an alternate version that had a steady or solid button ending landing on the one chord, and possibly leaving....*sings melody* That's tonic. Isn't that tonic?
• 1:08:16
  Dave Kropf: I would ended there, I think, or give them an alternate version because we're ending this cue on a non tonic non one chord. And again, with EDM, you can kind of get away with those. But if you are, once again, absolutely put that piano part in the beginning of Act One, the beginning of Act Two, and your Final Coda to the end of your cue.
• 1:08:37
  Dave Kropf: But thank you so much for sending this along the title. Pegasus Rising? Yeah, yeah, I think I think that works, I think, I think that works. And I do appreciate you sending this along.
• 1:08:52
  Dave Kropf: Like I said, this was sent for our week 26 feedback thread, it's, it's hard to believe we're already halfway through the year, we put feedback threads every single week, and to participate is absolutely free. And if you'd liked that feedback that I just gave, for Jerome, that is something that I do every single week for the family, the family members of the 52 cues, we have a zoom session, and I provide direct feedback. And it's also something that I offer, if you head over to 52Cues.com/coaching. And if you would like direct video feedback for your cues, including mixed notes, EQing, form structure, harmonic ideas, titling and the works then head over once again to 52cues.com/coaching, but I think that's going to do it for me today. Once again, I want to give a special word of thanks to the family, friends and patrons of 52 cues who helped keep all of this happening without your support. absolutely could not be doing what we do here but but like I said, that is going to do it for me today. As far as for next week. Next week. Let me pull up what we're what we're looking at one of these weeks, I'm going to look ahead of time. Next week, we are going to be looking at the habits that will kill your production music career or the Deadly Sins of Production Music. There's either going to be five or seven. I haven't I haven't decided how many of those I'm going to have but The the habits that will absolutely kill your production music career.
• 1:10:35
  Dave Kropf: So you absolutely want to stick around for that.
• 1:10:35
  Dave Kropf: And also, I am subbing in for Steven bed all over at the make music income podcast. So if you haven't already go and go subscribe to Eric's channel over there, and I'm just filling in while Steve is off getting married, getting married up in Vancouver so that's going to do it for me.
• 1:10:53
  Dave Kropf: Thank you so much for your support. And I hope that you had a great week 26 I hope the first half of your 2022 has been amazing. And here is to believing that the second half of 2022 is going to be even greater. Until next time, peace. The 52 cues podcast is copyright 2020 to Dave Kropf. All rights reserved to music played on the podcast is copyright of their respective owners and is used for educational purposes only. For more information including joining the 52 cues community and submitting your cue for consideration on the podcast head over to 52cues.com