Latest / Speaking Your Language / Episode 5 - Building High-Performing Teams: Where people, performance and AI come together

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Episode 5 - Building High-Performing Teams: Where people, performance and AI come together · Speaking Your Language

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Speaking Your Language, the AI podcast that is focused on how you really implement AI into your business.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: No hype, no noise, no jargon.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: So today's guest is somebody that I met at an AI event talking about a platform he had built himself, self-taught, with no experience in AI before.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Since then, we've become friends, we've been in the same networking groups, and we're partnering together as companies.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to let him introduce himself.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Over to you, Tom.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Marco.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm Tom Frogart.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: I run a group of companies that are all focused on the high performance culture and building high performance teams.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, as you say, uh about 18 months ago, I started building a company called Versapia, which really was taking some of the consulting work we'd been doing and building uh AI and technology product around it.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that led to me, yeah, teaching myself a lot about how to use the technology, what the technology could do, and giving talks about leadership in the age of AI or how companies should be thinking about it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yes, that's where we run into each other in Newport.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was opportunistic and a very good timely meeting because there was lots of stuff that we realized we could do together.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I was well impressed because it was very clear in your messaging of I've taught myself this and I've done this from scratch.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And these are the things you need to be aware of.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the kind of thing that's really important for business leaders.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: We'll come back to it, but that's the kind of thing that's really important for business leaders to know.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: So talk about high-performing teams.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: It means I think different things to different people, really.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to you?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it's really simple.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think a high performance team, a high performance culture is one that delivers the results that you're trying to achieve.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um that can be there can be a lot of different varieties of that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't have to be somewhere that's very nice.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it doesn't have to be a family environment, although it could be.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be somewhere where people are super engaged or the the you know, the sorts of things that typically people have looked at.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all those are metrics, all those are indicators of high performance culture.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: But um really it's about building a culture that delivers real business results uh and creates the kind of environment that the leaders of that business want from their organization.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and this is this is what I've spent the last five years, five years in in anger, but really 20 years uh working on through my career as a recruiter and as a consultant and now in the work we're doing at Versapia.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think high performance teams culture aligns to having good OKRs?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a lot more than that?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we've talked previously on another podcast about the people.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: How important is it to be sort of shared from the toppers to the vision and things like that?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see it?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um a lot of the work we do is around how do you set the infrastructure for high performance culture.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then yes, the behaviors within that are really important.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there's seven elements essentially.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you think of uh the Parthenon, so the the old building, the ancient Roman building where it has the pillars and the triangular roof and the steps leading up to it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So at the base, along the bottom of the structure, you have two foundational pieces.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the first is mission, purpose, and vision, uh, as you just touched on there.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the company going?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it exist?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what's the difference it's trying to make in the world?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we have some really specific definitions of that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that needs to come from leadership, of course.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're leading a business or an organization of any kind or a group of any kind, you've got to tell people where you're trying to go.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: The second foundational piece is values and non-negotiables.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of think of it as mission, purpose, and vision is what you're trying to do.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Values and non-negotiables are how you want the company to exist, how you want the company to behave, the guidelines under which you want to operate.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, there's lots of different ways you can achieve any objective you have, any mission you have with different types of values.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So sitting on top of those two foundational pieces are four pillars.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, first pillar is uh outstanding talent acquisition.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to get the right people in who align with that mission, purpose, and vision and the values that you're that you're working to.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not always easy.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is one of the hardest things, I think, especially in a small business, is you don't have capacity for people to not perform necessarily.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you you also don't have enough capacity to fully train them up in the right way that they should be trained.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start on that pillar before I let you go on to the others.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think people should be really considering when trying to make that higher?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the other thing I see in a lot of small businesses, and I went through this myself, was that they have an inferiority complex about the quality of people they can attract.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so they compromise.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the first thing to say is that you really want to resist compromising on the people that you hire, especially when you're small, but always.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But that means you've got to be really clear on what you're looking for.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's two elements to this that that people need to bear in mind.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be really clear, of course, on what the technical aspects of the role you're hiring into are.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and therefore, you know, from those technical aspects, what type of person you want.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think before that it comes from understanding what's the problem that you're trying to solve with the hire.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just we're hiring a software engineer.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's we are trying to build this set of features or we need we are missing our deadlines and we need to add resource to the team.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you understand that, that will help you define the technical brief more uh more accurately.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it'll probably give you a bit more latitude in the types of people that you can consider, which opens up your talent pool.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the second part of it is being really clear on those values and non-negotiables from the foundation and how you're going to test people against them.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because particularly, you know, if you're bringing people into an additional role in your organization or something that you already know how to do, but you're trying to increase capacity, um, really the most important thing is that they're the right sort of person.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because skills can be taught.
• 5:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Values and characteristics and and beliefs are really hard to change.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also a moral argument of like, should you try to change someone's values and beliefs?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really difficult.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if you can get those two things really clear, the problem you're trying to solve, and therefore the technical requirements, and then what is the what is the values fit that we're looking for for someone who will really work in this organization without it then, and this is the other thing to be aware of, without it then descending into culture fit, which basically means someone like the people we already have.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I, you know, I can talk a bit more about that, but uh that's really the key thing is getting that right in the first place.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we've previously hired lots of different levels of stuff.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as a smaller business, when you're first starting out, you uh want them to wear multiple hats.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really hard to find somebody that can wear those multiple hats.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, as we've progressed in in our business, and I know a lot of our clients and things are in a similar boat.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: P picking people who can slot into those roles in the right way, like you say, have already aligned values to yours, is a massive advantage.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we've brought in a junior member of staff fairly recently, and we've got this initiative now to try and you know scale up people because uh you know AI is not gonna have the same pathways, we'll come on to that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: But um, for that purpose, we've said, right, let's have a young person in an initiative.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is somebody that has contacted me three or four times over a year to say, if there's ever anything in your business, I would love to be a part of it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's have a chat.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And can you tell me more about what you're doing?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: To me, I didn't have to interview him.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was he was a culture fit already, he was curious, he was persistent, and he knew what he wanted.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: To me, those were the three values that I thought, great, I can work with that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: He did have an interview, obviously, but from a channel point.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's very important to do that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I didn't have to interview it.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I knew from the conversations I had, but the team interviewed him and we did the right things.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that as being something I think this is a good point when because not only the people recruiting, but for any younger people listening to this that are going to go in, I don't have the experience.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm worried about what AI is going to do about removing the the standard pathways.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a bit of responsibility on us as leaders to try and steer it.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But what would you say to them about how they should be approaching these things, not just sending a CV in, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: I th I think you know, AI is going to likely erode the skills requirement for a lot of jobs, because a lot of the technical skill will be easy to much easier to learn than it ever has been.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so then it's going to be about bringing in people who make the right decisions, who operate in the right way, who deal with customers in the right way, for example, all those things that aren't necessarily about experience and skill.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think absolutely the the the qualities or the values or the the characteristics of the person are already very important, but I think that's going to become even more the case, particularly as more and more roles become more focused on the human elements of whatever it is you do, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think um for young people or anyone who's looking for a job, because there's a lot of non-young people.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh oh, absolutely.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: There is, yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I think just speaking from my experience, because of my kids, that that's an area I'm very focused on of what's their pathway.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we speak of a lot of schools.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where do they go?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: What they go to university?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's what's the next step?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's hard at the moment.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's hard to understand what the future's gonna hold uh from a work perspective.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, this is one of the things that I have a a bit of a bee in my bonnet about is we need to start thinking about what kind of future we're trying to create from a work point of view, not just what all the dangers are.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I, you know, I can talk more about that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, I think I think what that person did with you is a really good example.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, find companies that you feel strongly about, find companies that align with what you believe, and find companies that you feel are doing things that you would be interested in doing, and then just go and ask them.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go and go and go out of your comfort zone a little bit and make the request.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the things that's um that maybe I've noticed as a as a hiring trend over the last few years is that the the level of proactivity and initiative and things like that has decreased because I think young people are not being taught to reach out and and connect with people and be proactive about those sorts of things.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about it all day, but I imagine you know, social media has had an impact on that.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Living more digitally, it's it's losing the softer skills, like you say, which are actually becoming way more important.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, you don't even have to go and speak to anyone to get a date these days, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to go outside and push yourself to do that or even to order a pizza.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, that's all the stuff.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on the way for 20 years, Tom.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I I can't even fathom the idea of it.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I wouldn't know where to start me, but yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I interrupted you.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So second pillar.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Carry on.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So first pillar is talent acquisition.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Second pillar, of course, is that once once you have those people, you've got to manage them.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So second pillar is alignment and performance management.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this is all about, and this is where you asked about uh OKRs, objectives.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is all about making sure that whatever system you're using, and we're we're pretty agnostic about how people set objectives and manage them.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um every single objective from what someone's doing this week to what the company is trying to achieve over 10 years has what we call a golden thread running through it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So every single objective you set should be aligned to a higher level objective or a longer-term objective.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's about putting in place a process that that you manage performance by.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever the right cadence is for your business, whatever the right way to approach that is for your business, doesn't really matter as long as it's consistent and it works and you're reviewing it consistently.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that makes sure that people are pulling in the right direction.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, performance management on its own has a huge impact on a business's performance.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and alignment, organizations that that are highly aligned uh in terms of what people do, as you would expect, they perform better.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you put those two things together, it has a huge impact on the results that you get.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and, you know, one of the things that we uh recommend, although I have to say, you know, we never tell companies what their culture should be, but it's something that we recommend is that they set stretching objectives for people because great people want to develop.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: But when you set stretching objectives for people, you've got to support them in achieving them.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the third pillar is all about people development.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So how are you how are you supporting the growth of your people?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: How are you helping them progress their career?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: How are you helping them develop skills not just that they want, but also that improve the capability of your business?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Great people want to grow.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not growing at your organization, they will leave or they will stay and become very disengaged.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the crazy thing is that that very few companies invest nearly enough in developing their people, but every single time that you improve the capability of your people, you improve the capability of your business without having to go and hire more people.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes you can't do it fast enough to avoid hiring, but really strong people development is key.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's lots of different ways you can do that.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't all cost very much money either.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not all about sending them on courses or sponsoring an MBA or those sorts of things, but what are you doing to help them grow?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the fourth pillar is what we call employee experience and environment.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: The idea behind this is that it covers quite a lot of ground, but it's all about the fact that whatever your employees' perception of their experience with your company is, is the reality of their experience with your company.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um it covers things like communication, diversity and inclusion, the actual physical environment, how you manage remote and hybrid working, uh, how you manage conflict and things like that in an organization.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's quite a few different elements to it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, uh part in some of the companies in the group, we have recruitment businesses.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that we teach people there is that when they go and headhunt people, uh, we teach them to look for what we call push factors.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have the most attractive job in the world, but if someone has no reason to leave their current employer, they are not going to leave their current employer.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what we've seen over 20 years of recruiting, thousands of recruiting assignments, even if you're getting the best job in the world and a massive pay rise and all this kind of stuff, because it's too much risk, it's too much fear of the unknown.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the more you can do as an organization to minimize the reasons that people would have to leave, the better your attention's gonna be, the better engagement's gonna be.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean bending over backwards, doesn't mean lavishing them with lots of perks, but it does mean listening and understanding what people want and trying to make things better.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then sitting over the top of those four pillars, then is the sort of roof of the structure, the triangle triangular roof of the structure, which is inspiring leadership.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and the concept behind this is that you can put all those other elements in place, but if your leaders aren't um guarding the culture, driving the mission, shaping the people underneath them, role modeling the right behaviors, uh, inspiring those around them, then it's not going to be effective.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's that's the seven elements of a high performance culture, essentially.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we um put those together over five years of consulting work, uh, where we not only studied the best companies in the world and looked at what they did, but then took those learnings and applied them in businesses, you know, by hand as as sort of uh external consultants to refine them and uh develop them.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really important point you make.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: We went through a stage where we would have quarterly kickoffs.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: We would lay the foundations for the next quarter and say, you know, you'd have a a a year plan, but you'd have your quarterly plan.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we wouldn't track it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of businesses that we I mean, there is a lot of businesses that we work with that go through that process.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: You set out a plan and you say, This is where we're all heading as a company, and there's no accountability.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's no requirement to prove that you've done any of that stuff.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just as important as having a plan.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, checking in on it is really key.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also about not just setting those top-level goals, but then also going, okay, so if this is what we're trying to achieve as a company, then this department, this is what you need to do over that period of time.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this group of individuals within that department, that's what you need to deliver.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Down to this person, this is your role in that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if this is where we need to be at the end of the quarter, then this is where we need to be at the end of the month.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then therefore, this is what you need to do this week and even today, right?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you're never going to get perfect alignment, but you know, um, and some businesses are easier to do this in than others, but the idea should be that everything people are working on today or this week is contributing to that big long-term goal.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you can just be explicit about that, you're much less likely to run into duplication.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I always remember once working for a company early in my career where I was managing a team and I used to sit next to my director.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we were both sitting working on something, and we'd been working, we'd both been working on it for a couple of hours.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he just lean over and said, What are you, what are you doing?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I'm putting this report together that uh the CEO's asked for.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: He went, Oh, that's what I've been doing for the last two hours.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of duplication happens all the time, it's just massive waste.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's so similar to all the AI-based conversations we have.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very similar.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we always say it starts with the people, the data, the automation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't have that foundation that you're talking about, what are you building on?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: You are putting the plaster on a broken leg, essentially.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it was another really good point you made was around people being boxed.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have that scope for them to grow, and it's the same thing around thought process and innovation, if they are in boxes, yeah, and you have two different camps primarily, and then there's a third, which is the new emerging one.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the the one is when you speak to somebody about helping their business on their role with AI, the first person will say, They're in this box.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived in this box for my entire life.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like the process I do.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I do not want to change it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's no change that I want.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: You have somebody over this side who says in this other box, I've been thinking about this non-stop.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've started experimenting, I've started doing these things, I've started trying to do make changes, but then I'm blocked because I can't do that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they're still in their own box, but they try and experiment in this box.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have this new emerging one, which is essentially what they're classifying as the maestro.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're able to see it from both perspectives, they're able to coordinate it and and manage it, but they still have to do that from a position of what is the overall goal?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And like you say, setting all of that up there's really, I love the analogy by the way, it's really good foundation to build on.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna come on to your AI implementation before you brought in your business.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: What were you basing it on to say, I need to build something with AI to support my business?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Was it in the beginning, was it just let me just experiment, see what's out there?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to an extent, yeah.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So so there's two things that was happening that were happening around the same time.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the beginning of 2025.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the first was that we were looking at how we use technology across our business in general, um, and whether we could find any efficiencies.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something we do quite regularly.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other was that um uh we had within our business, we had a recruiting business, which was our core function, and then we had this sort of consulting practice within the same organization that was only maybe 10% of our revenue, but it was it was starting a lot of conversations, it was where a lot of people were interested in engaging with us.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was where we felt we could differentiate.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it was all manual.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it was all based on that framework that I've just talked about.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: But even with that framework that's very repeatable, you need to tailor it for different organizations.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And also if you try to do too all of it at once, it's too much.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you had to be quite specific about what you're focusing on.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that meant that we um we had to do a lot of heavy lifting ourselves.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had to do a lot of the work, so it's quite expensive to deliver.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, there was a lot of people we spoke to who wanted to work with us on their culture, but they didn't want to spend 200 grand on consulting fees.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we had a business model problem, but we also had an issue in that I I was looking at how do we scale that business.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the only route I could see initially was as a consulting practice in and of itself, which looked really expensive and really hard and looked like it was going to take a long time, and I'd be at the mercy of these consultants that I'd have to pay loads of money for.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it just wasn't something I fancied doing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So those three things were coming together.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: We were experimenting with technology, we had a business model issue, and the the traditional route that we were taking wasn't one that I really fancied.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I started asking the question, you know, we have this framework, we have this intake process and this this sort of methodology or this way of gathering the right data.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: If we were to train an LLM on this, would it be any good?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: What could it do?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and how would we do it?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and I really didn't know what the technical answers to those things were, but I thought, well, you know, let's let's figure it out.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and as you know, the great thing about AI is it will teach you how to use AI.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I just started initially speaking to ChatGPT, uh not on ChatGPT anymore.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, maybe I don't know what your licensing agreements are.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: We maybe don't want to get into that.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But no, no, no, it's uh and just said that this is what I'm trying to do.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: How could we approach it and started started playing around with that?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it turns out it was pretty good.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's the the thing.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: You had a problem, three problems, and then you said you asked AI, how can I solve these problems?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is the easiest way to get started.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: But we also had the methodology, and I think that was really key.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: We had the IP that underlined it, and I'd actually already started writing a book about the methodology, and it was not in a uh state where it could be published.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was like a hundred thousand words of my like late night ramblings.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, for a for a sort of core knowledge base for an AI product, actually it was perfect because it was I I'd written it just to go, I want to get everything out of my head and then we can refine it.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we had that core people.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: First, which I think was really key.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: When looking at AI innovation generally, I always advise people to say, well, what is it that you're doing that somebody couldn't just replicate tomorrow?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's the point where we're at now, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this three arms to that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You have, is it better functionality that makes it easier to use than something else?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great, but somebody could still potentially replicate that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the data itself?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is there data that you have that no one else can access via open source or media, or you're maybe you're consolidating multiple things with a different element?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third bit is like exactly like you said, it's having either a methodology, uh, an IP that's built, that you have a framework, that you have something different that no one else does, that you do really well, and you're able to then surface it in a way that's consumable.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which, if you're running any sort of consulting or services business, then you should have that anyway.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of people don't, and we didn't for a long time, but developing that is a good idea, even if you're not planning to build an AI tool around.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where innovation is different to standard operations, automation, uh, operational efficiency.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is innovation with a I have something special and I can now package it in a way that's consumable.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about subscription-based models and things previously, yeah, and chatting around all of this.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and every business now is potentially moving more towards that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you, like you say, if you had to go out for and sell consultancy every time, you're doing that every single time.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And every time you move to a consultancy sale, you deliver it, and then you have to go and find another one to fill it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you can move to more subscription model, you become more ingrained with the teams you're working with, you get to know more about them, and you can, in your sense, actually help them maintain this performing enhanced performance culture that you built.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I find that um just the psychology of it is a little different in that, you know, consulting fees typically are big upfront fees and then completion fees.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's there's almost like a tension between the consultant and the client in terms of they don't want to pay the upfront fee, first of all, but also sort of it's in the consultant's interest to complete the project as quickly as possible, where that's not necessarily in the client's interest.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I know a lot of consultants don't approach it with that mentality, but the client perception is a little bit different.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think as subscription model, A, usually, even if you don't automate things, allows you to charge a little bit less because it's recurring and it's reliable.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but B, it changes the psychology of the client a little bit as well.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So what would be your top tip for someone looking to build a high performance culture, other than speaking to yourself, of course.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a given.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a given.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if they had to do one thing today, what would you say that most important pillar is?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it depends what they've done already.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because a lot of companies we come across have done some of this stuff and not all of it, or they've done it and not followed it through and what have you.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if they've done nothing, start with the foundation, start with the mission, purpose, and vision and get real clarity not only on what that is, but on what it means for each person in the business.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, so just as some really quick definitions, we define mission as what is the impact the company is trying to have.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why does the company exist?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Purpose is why does that matter?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who does it matter to?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Who are the stakeholders?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you can define stakeholders however you want.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's no there's no set.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to include everybody, but it's who's the important stakeholders.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Vision is what's the story of the future of the company in advance?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's really about how you engage people, what it means for them, what it's gonna mean for their career, what it's gonna feel like and sound like and look like when you are successful.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then values and non-negotiables are really about defining, well, with that in mind, how do we want to achieve this objective?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: What what kind of company do we want to build?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what are the principles that are gonna stay with us, even if we take this to a multi-billion dollar IPO, right?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what are the things that we think will will be as timeless as they can be?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean you can't change them.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't like to focus on negatives, but we have to address it because if you get it wrong, it can have a massive impact.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So on the flip side, what's the one thing you say really focus on making sure you don't get that wrong?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, just on that point, the whole reason I started doing culture consulting was that um I had a business that I managed to take from a 300 grand profit in our third year to a 200 grand loss in our fourth year.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it was a pretty expensive lesson.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that business was very close to failing.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I became obsessed with this question of um, well, some companies are successful over and over again.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: They launch loads of different products, they go into different markets, and this is not just big companies, but small companies too.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're managing to be successful with everything they do or the majority of things they do.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas most companies are either failing or just about surviving.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I became obsessed with this question of what's the difference between the two types of companies.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really hard to find the answer because um they all had different products, different resources, different markets, different industries, different sizes.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find any pattern between them for a really long time.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they all had really different cultures.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing I noticed eventually was that they all had a very distinctive culture that had these seven elements that I just talked about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it by the way, it took a while to get those seven elements after I made that first realization.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I genuinely believe that culture is the difference between success and failure in businesses.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not tech, it's not money, it's the people and culture that you you build.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am a little bit biased, but I strongly believe that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, I get it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think uh with that in mind, if it was one thing to avoid, what I would say is do not compromise on the people that you hire.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't hire just based on technical skills, don't hire out of inferiority complex.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Don't um hire because you're under time pressure to hire.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're under real time pressure, bring in a consultant.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like take your time to hire the right people.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything becomes easier when you get the right people into the business.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everything becomes harder when you don't have the right people in the business.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that would be the thing I'd say to avoid.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's great, it's great advice, Tom.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things we were chatting about earlier is business isn't linear.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can have periods where it just doesn't feel like it's quite working, and then all of a sudden everything aligns and it clicks and kicks in overnight.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And do you still see that with businesses?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just to kind of wrap up on this point, I think this would be a really nice way to end.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: What as small and medium businesses, we're gonna go through turmoil up and down.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: What's your tip for just trying to persist with it?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you not fall off track?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's very easy to go, it's not working.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: My high performance culture is nonsense, it doesn't work.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: What it's gonna you're gonna have doubts right on the way.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: What's your tip?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a really good question.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're all under more pressure to grow rapidly and and double, triple, what is it, double, double, triple, double, triple, triple, whatever?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Triple, triple, double, I think.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: All the doubles and triples.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the reality is there's very few businesses that actually do that.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So so it's really easy for entrepreneurs, leaders, founders to feel like they're failing most of the time, even when they've got a decent business.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think the market's gonna change.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the things that work for you are gonna change as well.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And some things that used to work for you will not work for you anymore.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not always gonna be able to predict when that's gonna happen.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, if you've got a core of a good business and you've validated that and people actually want what you're providing, I think that's step one, right?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is like make sure you're actually selling something that people want.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you've done that, then it's really about the tactics.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's really about, well, how do we get this in front of the right people?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do we convince them that it's the right thing for them to do?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: What are their objections?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It really becomes about marketing, and that can be product development as well.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um it there's so many ways that you can build a business.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think if yours isn't growing or isn't growing as fast as you would like or is declining, it just means you haven't found the thing that is gonna work for you yet.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or the things that used to work have stopped working, you need to find something else.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you just got to keep trying things.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: With the expectation that the majority of them are gonna fail.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: But when you find one that works, just do it over and over and over and over again.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you can keep looking for something else, but spend like 80% of your time doing that thing that works and 20% of your time looking for other things.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can find two or three, then then you're absolutely laughing.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's two things that people get wrong is they give up before they find the thing, because the three things they tried didn't work, so the business must not be worth it when there's still another 3,000 to try.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they find it, they don't double down on it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not convinced, or sometimes just because they get bored.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they stop doing the things that work because they're bored of them.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I I heard someone say once, I forget who it was, but they said, Don't stop.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was about running ads.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stop running an ad when you're bored of it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Don't even stop running an ad when your customers are bored of it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Stop running an ad when your accountant tells you you should stop running an ad.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: When it stops working.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think we get obsessed with the fact that we've said this before or we've run this ad for three months or whatever, but there's so many potential customers.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: The markets are so big, most people have never even noticed that you exist.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Find the value and capitalise on it.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Love that, Tom.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we ask everyone who comes on the podcast to give us either a book or a podcast that you'd recommend, one tool or thing that you use day to day, and it doesn't have to be digital, and one piece of advice.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So can you do that?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So can I do a book and a podcast?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can, yeah, of course.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a podcast I just started listening to recently called the Long Now Podcast, um, which is really cool.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's by the Long Now Foundation, who are all about thinking they they're trying to bring together people to think about the next 10,000 years of human existence human existence um rather than the next 10 minutes or the next quarter.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they talk to scientists, philosophers, poets, business people, all sorts of people that are really interesting.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just a really nice way to get different perspectives because we all we're all getting into these bubbles, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but they deliberately bring together diverse perspectives and diverse points of view.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really good.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think um from a book point of view, and just given the topic of this podcast, uh, I read a book recently called Human Compatible by um Simon Russell, uh, who's one of the pioneers of AI, literally wrote the textbook on AI.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and uh that was amazing because he talked about some of the dangers of AI as a lot of books are doing, but he also talked about how we could potentially design AI and robotics in a future in which technology worked for us and and not for our benefit, which I think is a part of the narrative that's missing.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um piece of advice you are not as far behind as you think you are.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh most of the world hasn't started using this technology in any way whatsoever yet.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're even listening to this podcast and thinking about using AI or how AI interacts with your business, then you're probably way ahead of I think it's 97% of the population who've never even it it is mad numbers when you put it like that.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you feel like you see every person on TikTok saying they automated their business in four days.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I did this, I did that.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you feel like they have to keep switching, I have to keep moving ahead.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you do have to just take a moment, take your time, you're still ahead of the game, even finding out about that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And at all, um uh this is gonna sound a little bit cheesy, but it but it I hope it's useful for some people.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sit down for an hour with nothing but a notebook and think about things.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is you're working on, like use your brain.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sit down with a question you're trying to answer, a problem you're trying to solve, and just sit there with no distractions and think about it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Before you go and rush to Claude or whatever you use, um I think we're losing the ability to think critically about things and reflect on things for a long period of time.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and a lot of people's attention spans are shortening.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, my you know, your own brain is the tool that I recommend.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Great piece of advice.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got your book as well.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: So for every guest, we now give them a book, and it's one that I pick based on conversations I've had.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we've talked about the subscription model quite a bit, and Tien Zhao um writes it in subscribed.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how every single business should be looking to have a subscription model, no matter what you are.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a slightly different take on things, but it's really good.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoy it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, fab.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I look forward to that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you all soon.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.