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Moonchild: From Combat Aviator to Finding Peace After Trauma · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I'm Dr Daniel Roberts, president and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women, incorporated.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Today we have a great guest on our show, anthony Dyer.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: He was born and raised in the rugged beauty of Sylva, north Carolina.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: He grew up in the heart of the Appalachian Mountains, where adventure and resilience were woven into his very being.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: That same spirit of fearlessness carried him into a life of service, leading to an extraordinary career in special operations aviation in the United States Air Force.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: As a combat special missions aviator.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Over the course of more than a decade, anthony flew into some of the most dangerous and unpredictable environments on the planet, executing high-risk missions that demanded precision, courage and an unbreakable will.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: His exceptional skill and unwavering commitment to his team earned him numerous accolades, including the Air Force's Jolly Green Rescue Mission of the Year in 2018 for his role in a daring, life-saving operation.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Throughout his career, he witnessed both the triumphs and burdens of combat, experiencing firsthand the weight that warriors carry long after the mission ends.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Anthony's debut book, moonchild, is more than just a memoir.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: It's a raw, unfiltered odyssey into the realities of war, survival, addiction and search for meaning beyond the battlefield.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Moonchild is a story for those who have stood at the edge of darkness, for those who have wrestled with alcoholism, trauma and the silent battles of mental health, and for those who are still finding their way back.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: But it's not only about struggle.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: It's about transformation, resilience and the audacity to live boldly.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So welcome to the show, anthony.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Great to have you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Dr Roberts.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Glad to be here.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: So it's fascinating.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: We don't get a lot of stories from operators.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I've done some podcasts from special operators but it's its own little special operators of their own community and their own culture and all that.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate taking the time to share a little bit with us.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I want to get into your military background a little bit because I think it's fascinating.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: So you were a special operations aviator.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what that is and what you did.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, about what that is and what you did.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: So back in 2010, I retrained from the Air Force Fire Department or Fire and Rescue, to what was then called Aerial Gunners, the 1-7 AFSC, and recently they've combined the well, not recently, but 2013 is they combined the Aerial Gunner, Flight Engineer and Loadmaster career fields into one and named that basically basis Swiss Army knife in the sky, if you will a special missions aviator.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: And at that point, you know, I went through some training and then got assigned to the 16th Special Operations Squadron here at the Canada Air Force Base, flying on the, you know, the AC-130H model gunship and that role, the strategic role with that you know airframe, is to provide close air support for, you know, mainly unconventional forces, meaning, like you know, your SEAL teams, your Green Berets and basically, long story short, our job is to make sure those operators get home.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: And I had the privilege and honor to fly and fight beside the best men and women in the Air Force, you know.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: And then eventually I go to the helicopter, to the rotor ring side of things, in 2015 and flew in the Pave Hawk rescue helicopter there in Moody Air Force Base, georgia, doing the combat, search and rescue missions.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's pretty elite, fascinating stuff.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: And I was.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I spent 32 years in the Army, 10 of it on active duty as an infantryman, and so I was with the 82nd most of that time and with the 25th Infantry Division.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: So we did ride some airplanes, but mostly we didn't land at them.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: But it was fun.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So we worked with the the I guess the regular air force a lot in doing our airborne operations and that kind of thing.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Um, and it's always nice when you can get a ride somewhere instead of walking or a truck or whatever.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: But it's all.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: It's also quite right, especially when you're talking war in the mountains of Afghanistan or deserts of Iraq or whatever.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I mean airplanes, airframes of different kinds make pretty good targets, right.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: You know what was.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned that.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Like you know, I flew on gunships for a while and I went to the 60s and I remember the helicopters and just the very nature of that.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: That airframe is very dangerous, you know, and they, I remember them saying something effective, like you know, you'll know, men and women, that that will will die in this career field, you know, and then it happens right and you're like man, like this is a very real, just the nature of it, very dangerous thing, you know.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: So even a training flight, you know you could, could be your last sword.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: You never know, you know, yeah um, so I know that many of your missions are, are, you know, confid, secret and all that kind of stuff.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: So, uh, I certainly you won't tell me anything that that'll violate any of that.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: But, um, you mentioned trauma.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: You know in your bio and trauma and I know Moonchild talks about that a lot Can you share with us some of the traumas that you experienced, the difficulties that kind of led to some of the maybe mental and emotional difficulties you experienced?
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: So you know, when I was on gunships and even flying as an aviator in general, I guess again that earlier our whole job was to make sure, you know, you guys on the ground got home to your family, you know, and pride of myself on that, you know, for many years, and that was my whole why my reason for flying, you know, to make sure those operators get home.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: And then I went to the rescue helicopter and you know, I realized very fast there was a castback.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You know, june 8th of 2018.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: And we'll just say East Africa, basically, long story short, there was a seven day operation on the last day.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Everything's going normal.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: And then I get the attention on the net.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: You know, scramble, scramble, scramble, which led to a pretty nasty castback.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: There we we got to see the best side of combat, search and rescue, meaning we saved five lives and we saw the worst side, which one American, one Eagle, died.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: You know, and that's the one that to this day sticks with me.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: You know, and I had to.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You know I got a lot, a lot of help and I'm a better man for that, but you know meaning that it's a job you never want to have to do, but if you do it, you know there is situations where someone could die.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: You know, and you, you know it's not what you do in life that haunts you, it's what you don't do, and not having someone come back Definitely stuck with me.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I, uh, I was talking to a Canadian aviator a couple of years ago and he was really struggling with PTSD and moral injury years ago and he was really struggling with ptsd and moral injury, and one of the things he shared with me is, um, one of their overseas missions, um, there was a uh, it was a nine mission, I believe and there was a, a massive, uh, a number of casualties, but it was due to a crash, an accident, whatever, and so they wanted to go out there and rescue him and the commander wouldn't let him because he felt the risk was too high that there would be another incident and he would lose those guys too.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: So he didn't let them leave until daylight and by the time they got there, everyone was dead.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: And by the time they got there, everyone was dead.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: So he that you know it goes to what you're saying about what you didn't do that he still carries that the guilt and shame and burden and all that that goes along with it when they found out, probably could have saved most, if not all, of them.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Uh, because of a decision made by somebody else at a higher level.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was the right decision, but it also shows like the no win kind of situation the commander was in because he, he knew that people were probably going to die, but then, on the other hand, if he sent the, the aviators out, and they also, you know, then that's that's a problem.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: So it's the commanders in that conundrum, but then the pilots, they have to go out there, and the, the various people that work, that crash and see the dead and live with that.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: So for sure, yeah, um, did you, did you have in a situation where you felt like like you were in a no-win or whatever decision you made was wrong, or those kind of conflicts?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: So I've had those situations where, like so, in this situation specifically, man, I just want to paint a picture about everything was going wrong from the get-go.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Like we take off, man, and like we're doing what we call fencing in, and basically like you're arming your weapons and and getting your defensive system dreading.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: And so right after takeoff, you know I see impacts in the ground, what it was?
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: We were in a right hand turn and I see the dirt flying up and the left you get, the left gunner had a runaway gun from a, you know, like a worn sear notch.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I believe it was on the 50 cal, and then I had pulled the cmds, our flare pins that keep us protected against, you know, ir surface air missiles, and then at that point, runaway gun, I pulled the flare pins, all of our flares jettisoned.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: I could literally feel the heat, you know, off the, the flares, um, and then the comms were sort of getting jammed up and it was a broken five line while I was piecing together from a JTAC.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: So all these things are going wrong.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Rescue helicopter I already know we're doing close air support with a 50 cow, which is very, very uncommon for a defensive platform.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: And then there's literally a point in the story where I'm like, at that point, what the F is going on.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: All this is happening so fast, you know.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: And then we get there and, big picture, we did about four gun runs.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: There was 12 guys on the tree line and we had to essentially almost fight our way in a little bit.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: We're the first ones to land after those four gun runs.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: We had all four guns on target.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And then we pick up.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I remember there was an American get brought in.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: The PJ was brought in first, and then they put another Green Brae right beside me and then a Partner Nation guy that got shot in the gut.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And then, um, we take off.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And then we're doing gun patterns and it gets to a point where, okay, trails on the ground, it seemed like forever, when all reality it really wasn't.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: You know, they were picking up their cat alphas from the, you know the cast of that, and we were, okay, we're going to give it one more gun pass.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And then we got an egress.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, by the grace of god, once we took off, they, you know they egressed with us, you know, got back re-armed, refueled the helicopter, went back into the fight, did some more gun runs.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: They picked up one more cat, alpha, and got back and I was checking the helicopter for bullet holes and then, that's when I went to the front of the aircraft and you know, the aircraft commander's face was white and I'd ask him what happened, he goes oh, we, an American died, you know, and that's I'll never forget that feeling.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: You know, it hit me like a ton of bricks.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: So it was the saying okay, like no matter what was happening, everything was going wrong, but we, we still pressed in the end, you know, and there is, you know, the mind games of like, if I would have been there 30 seconds earlier, would it have mattered?
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: the questions like that, right, like that's what sticks with you, so yeah, I was gonna ask.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot going on there and you did a lot of uh.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: What's?
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: What's fascinating about the human psyche is you did a lot of very brave things, very courageous things, things that 99.9 percent of people could never do right, and one, they haven't had the training.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: But two it's just, it takes a special person to raise their hand and say let me go into a place where people are shooting at me and where there's death all around the turns and try to do do something good.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: So so you have all the bravery you exhibited, all the all the smart actions you took, all the reactions that you took in the face of all these things going wrong and like, in many ways, for countless reasons, you did amazing things and should be applauded and awarded for all that.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Right, but what you're saying, what sticks to you, is the one bit of it that didn't go right.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Right, it was a result you didn't want, and so that's very typical of us.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Right is that you sort of like know you did some awesome stuff.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's like, like, but right, you know this person lost their life, and so is that the main piece that you think about of all this stuff is that the, is that the piece that that you think about a lot or that comes to you a lot?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: that's the piece that I've, I've, I've had to come to peace with is, you know, I the reason I wrote the book was, uh, you know, prolonged exposure.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you're familiar with that, that sort of therapy.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, you know, I've the air force has, uh, basically, in these units, you know, there's a preservation of the force and family and through all like so calm, these type units, you know.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: And then the m flack.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: I actually talked to psychologists and you know, I'm telling this the story, you know, and more.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I had to write it down for some more detail and then tell it and tell it, tell it till I became comfortable talking about it, sort of sort of like we're doing now, you know.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: And then it got timed, and then you know, and then I realized like, at that point, you know, she asked me to tell my story a few times, like maybe she's right, you know, maybe when I got out, and that does settled.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: The silver lining in this is if, if I tell the story, maybe someone will get help from it.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe if one person gets help them right, that's a blessing, you know.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And that's.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: There's a very spiritual side to this story too.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I can get into that too, if you want.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: There's a very spiritual side to this story too.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: You know, and I can get into that too, if you want.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we definitely will.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: We're going to get into the book in a good bit.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I want to do a little more background stuff.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Um so, how long were you, how long were you flying those kinds of missions, and how many?
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: How many missions roughly do you think you've flown?
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I retrained into, you know, arrow gunner.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I think my first appointment was 2011 and then I retired a December of 21.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: So about 11, 11 and a half years I was a an aviator, you know, I would say over 200.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Last time I tallied him out over 200 combat missions, about 2,700, you know total hours there, you know, and that's the various aircraft AC-138 model gunship, the Whiskey model gunship and then the H-860G Pave Hawker rescue helicopter.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good and do you have?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Do you have a spouse or children or any family?
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got married in 2016, actually when I was going through my 60 initial qualification training.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I got my soon-to-be wife pregnant and then we got married there at a little drive-thru place in Albuquerque.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: It actually had a Taco Bell open sign on it for like here, reverend, here's 200 bucks.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Marry us, try to care right.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, we did that and Reverend here's 200 bucks.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Marry us, you know, try to care, right, awesome, yeah, yeah.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: So we did that, you know.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And then she went to Moody and my last three deployments.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: You know my daughter was alive then and so yeah.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome, that's funny and that's actually a lot of military people do that sort of thing, right.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, actually a lot of military people do that, do that sort of thing right.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Just my own wife and I, we, we, uh I at the time, at the time we met, I wasn't serving, I had served 10 years on active duty and I I left, and so we got married right a little bit before 9-11.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: That's when I came back in.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: But, um, we eloped and did a little uh wedding chapel in gatlinburg, tennessee, nice, because we didn't you know, we've both been married before we'd had the big wedding thing and we're like that's not what we're into.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Plus, we didn't have a lot of money to put together, so it was like you know, uh, but anyway, so you're, you have, so that makes your.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Is it just the daughter that you have?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just have a nine-year-old daughter.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Experiences, the trauma, the difficulties, all that.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: How do you view the military and how do you think about it through the lens of your daughter, if that makes sense?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I feel that you know the military is.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: You know there's a reason that we're free, you know, and 100% you know, I think, that the fact that we have a volunteer force, you know our enemies, whoever they, even near peer China, russia, they haven't found a way to beat that yet you know.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: So, uh, you know, the American spirit is what makes us free those volunteers.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: The volunteer force is what I'm getting at, you know, and I think my daughter, uh, you know, she loves, uh, she told me she loves, uh, she told me, told me once she wanted to be an A-10 pilot and as a gunship guy, you could see the dilemma there, you know.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: But yeah, she, she got a little mini flight suit for her.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: She, you know, she loved it.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know she don't know about the bad things that sort of come with it yet you know, but yeah, she, she knows it's a necessary thing for freedom, you know.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, um, and I find that most military folks, even with the trauma they experience, you know, see it as a valuable, as a valuable calling or whatever.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: So my own son is in the Marine Corps Marine Corps Reserve infantry guy, so he's kind of following in my steps and my daughter is 16.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: She'll, she'll never get near the military.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: That's not her thing at all and it's fine.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting that, despite our trauma, difficulties and whatever we see the military institution for what it can be and the good things it does offer people is, you just have to be open-eyed about the things that need to change.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that need to change with the military and a lot of challenges and so on.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: But I think what you're doing here is and we're going to get into the book now but one of the common things we have with veterans that makes us unique and is difficult to translate on the civilian side.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: You have these experiences.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I've never flown, I've never been a gunner on a ship, on a helicopter or airplane, airframe of any kind, but I've flown in a bunch of them.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: And even if I hadn't, there's just this, this connection veterans have with each other, cause whether you're in the Navy, the army, the air force, whatever we have our rivalries within, but, at the same time, if you're sitting down across the table with a veteran, um, drinking a beer or a coffee or whatever, it is like's so much camaraderie, some commonality, and so your story is going to be valuable, um, whether a person's a man or a woman, an admin person, a gunfighter, whatever.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: It is right.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And so so talk about your book, um, what was it that drove you to write the book?
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: First of all, what's the title and what's you know what?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: What motivated you to write it?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: So the title is, uh, it's um, called a moon child, the roots and wings of a combat special missions aviator.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: And uh, you know, it basically takes me in the beginning of Appalachia, where I grew up, being my roots, you know.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: And then all those sort of uh, lessons I've learned, you know, and things that were instilled in me, morals, values, growing up, you know.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: And then I get to a point in my career where I was realizing, you know, I was sitting on the sidelines in the global war on terror and I went home on leave.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: That's when I was a firefighter.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: I'm at a pizza place and I see the same cracks in the road and, you know, I realized at that point, man, that, like the moment we're born, we start dying Right and the only thing you can truly leave behind is your legacy, if you will, or how you're remembered.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So you know, not to sound cliche, I don't want to leave cracks, I want to leave craters.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: And I went to the back to the firehouse and I read a book by Dick Couch, things called Chosen Soldier, about the Green Beret teams, their training and stuff.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: In the beginning of that book and this is before, fury made the Bible verse popular, but it was the Isaiah 6-8, the send me verse, you know.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And then at that point I never looked back.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I want to make a difference and I want to be remembered, you know, and that's where the Air Force gave me my wings, and it's the fact that it's good to know where you come from, but it's really important to know where you're going and always, always persevere the overall theme of perseverance through the book and the why.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: You know, behind the book we sort of hit on a little bit earlier.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I was doing the treatment, the prolonged exposure treatment, and then you know the lady, the first time I told the story, you know she, I cried, she cried and she's like you know you should tell your story.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And and she's like you know you should tell your story.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And I said no, a hundred times.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: You know, there's the, the quiet professional thing.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: We get taught a lot, right, and but at the same time, like you know, when I got out I was like, when the dust settled, like man, there's not even a door handle on the other side of the door when you out process mpf, right, like you know it's.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: This machine keeps going.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: But these stories, every veteran has a story in it.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I feel like they need to be told because if they don't, then they die.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: So I think that was part of the reason was to basically show America what goes on when you're sleeping.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Another, the biggest reason would be if a person seeks help, it's okay, we got done with two decades of war.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: It's okay to be not okay.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some of the biggest lessons you learned through the process of seeking help?
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Well, let me all right before we, before we go to that question what, what was it that that drove you?
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Or was there a specific uh?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: So you talked about, you know, the crack in the road, which I thought was a really interesting analogy, um, and it triggered you to like, do something more.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Was there something that triggered you to say I got to get help and I'm gonna get help now?
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was at this point, my, uh, I did my last appointment there to al-assad, all right, and I was back on gunships at this point, and then, um, it was so slow, man, man, the my sense of purpose was dwindling, my identity, everything was cause.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I knew the end was getting near.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I'm at 20, going into 21 years at this point, and you know, I get back, man, and I hit the retirement button.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And when I did that it was I even felt like this heaviness of like my reason for being is over, right, to make sure those guys on the ground get home and my sense of purpose is gone.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: That's a real thing.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Even when you get out, it gets worse.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: You know that sense of purpose.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And then you know, I started drinking what was, to be honest with you, a pint a day, which on the weekends, right, elevated to a pint a day, you know.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: And I was just drinking and drinking, man, it got really bad in this vicious cycle of drinking every night to go to sleep, waking up hungover, getting through the work day, and then my wife's like, you know, man, it's us, or your daughter, or the alcohol, basically.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And at that point I sought help there at the MFLAC MFLAC being Marist Military Family Life Counselors yeah, okay, iors, yeah okay.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I love the MFLAC.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: We worked with them.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I was in the Army chaplaincy for most of my career.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: We worked with the MFLACs.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're awesome man.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't realize it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: You can see those guys for anything, man.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be as traumatic as mine or anything like that.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: You can see them for literally anything you know, for marriage, whatever you know.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, okay, good, uh, so what are the during during your counseling?
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Um, well, again, what modalities did you use?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Or, excuse me, do you use um to to help you?
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: yeah.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: So I started out with the prolonged exposure treatment and then, right before I got, you know, right when I got out, I started, you know, I got assigned medication.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: You know different things, like you know.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: I'll say it, I don't care to say it but bupropion and the Prozac and stuff like that, and you know that I'd be lying if I said it didn't help.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You know, but it does.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: But yeah, those things.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: And as far as just coming to terms with the fact that sometimes, for whatever reason, I hate to say it like this, but God lets bad things happen to good people and I still don't know the answer to that and I'm still seeking that answer, but I'm at peace with asking that question now.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's really important.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I mean the, the.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I think the number one thing that we're really looking for is inner peace, and we do all kinds of things to get it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Um, and some of it comes from our purpose, you know, having a purpose, Um, but there's there's these unanswered questions, like you're talking about and you know, in terms of moral injury and helping people with moral injury, um, you know there are.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: There are some things you can't go back and fix, Like during the course of combat, like your situation, right, For instance, you can't go back and make that person alive, so you have to find a way to be at peace with it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Well, the problem is, people haven't found that in many cases, and so they're revisiting this issue over and over.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Or, like you mentioned, the question of how could God?
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: You know it's an ancient question, an age-old question about how did God let this happen, and so on, Like many different versions of that same questions.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: But you can't, you don't have the answer to that question.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean you can't find some peace, and I think that's really critical.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Does your book really help people?
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Is that part of the reason you wrote the book is to help people find peace in the midst of these kinds of difficult questions and traumas and challenges.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then towards the end of the book, you know I'd I'd get to.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I was at that point, at this point, where I was talking about, you know, the drinking every day heavily, really in a dark place, man, and I lost a lung.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: You know my last year in all this stuff.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, I end up talking to a preacher and I never forget this is the, basically the, and the question he asked me he's like man, he's like life circumstances can make you, you know, bitter or better.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: He's like.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: The choice is yours and I chose right then to be better you know it's one way or the other, you know and to be at peace with it and just to live a happy life, man, you know.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: So there is, there is light at the end of that tunnel, no matter what you've been through, you know, like I have to believe that you know God's plan or whoever you believe in.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: His plan is, is it's, it's going to be bright, man, you know, yeah, I I ran into this quote this morning that I love the wound is the place where light enters you.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a quote from a guy who lived in, a guy named Rumi.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: He lived in Afghanistan so many centuries.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one, yeah, but but I really like that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Um, what are some of the things you learned about yourself or about healing as you went through the process yourself?
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: What were some of the big lessons that you took from it?
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: so I went in there with a chip on my shoulder at first.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: To be honest with you, you know, like, what does this person know about helping me in this combat scenario situation?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: You know typical questions, you know, and realizing the fact that man like this is very cliche, but you know the way they do the comparison of, like you don't go to a dentist to fix your car.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: You know that type, you know they're there, you know people have degree, they, they study this stuff and the psyche and stuff like that.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And so I had to basically put my barriers down, keep an open mind and, uh, you know, say, hey, I made a decision to get.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I will be a better man because of this, you know.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and how many sessions or how long were you getting the counseling, the help, before you started feeling significantly better, before it started making a big difference to you?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I would say it was pretty frequent we were visiting, I would say about anywhere 15 to 17.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: It really started.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: My mood changed.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Everything got better.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: They recognize when you're a little brighter, if you will.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: You know you know happier stuff like that.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and the reason I bring that up is just because I think it's really important for care providers to recognize both care providers and clients, if you will, to recognize that these things take time.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: It's not going to be three sessions and a prayer.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I remember talking to a chaplain one time really, really made me angry.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't say anything to him at the time, but he's a military chaplain active guy and to him at the time, but he's sort of, he's military chaplain active guy.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And I understand the military.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: You know you got a hundred things to do and so sometimes when soldiers come to see you, you're thinking about I got this meeting at this thing for the commander.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I got a blah, blah, blah but but he said if I can't, if they can't be fixed in like three sessions, then I refer them.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: They're not for me, I don't have time for it and whatever.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And I was like I mean, there's nothing more important than than somebody who comes to get care.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: And when I was a Sergeant major, um, at the army reserve command, uh, and I would.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: There were a couple of times I skipped meetings with the command sergeant major and he didn't like to.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: You know, he called me directly and said, hey, you weren't at my meeting.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I said, sergeant, major, right before your meeting somebody came in they need some help.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: And he was like, okay, fair enough, you know, and it was one I I was happy to not go to the meeting, but the other, but it was to be able to say like, hey, this person, whoever this soldier is, is more important than any meeting.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And he got that and he understood that, yeah and so.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: But the point I'm making is like, this kind of help that people are getting, that they need, whether you're a chaplain, a social worker, a MFLAC or psychologist, they might need a lot of sessions.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes I think one of the issues with our system is and I'm not blaming anybody for it but there's not enough money for mental healthcare.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And so if you've got a private practice, you've got to charge people, and sometimes people run out of money before they get really enough sessions or insurance doesn't take care of them enough.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of insurances.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: They just don't give you a month enough money for mental health care.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And these things aren't like a broken leg where you can get a cast and a few weeks you're healed and you're good.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: These things can go on and on and you might need a lot of sessions.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: So it's important to be patient.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I guess, if you're getting help, to stick with it right Long enough to to make sure, because we have these little you know things in our brain and these long held habits of thought that aren't going to change, and when we have trauma these habits of thought get really our thoughts get entrenched and they're not easily changed and so you know you got to getting help.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: If it's even just improving things just a little bit is better than not getting help.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Right, a hundred percent, and I think that's important to say.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: You know we are creatures of habit.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: You know I've heard a lot of times people say gunners are creatures of habit.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: You know there's checklists.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: You do the checklist so many times to memorize it.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: You know and just be in habit, meaning like you know, the key to any success in anything is really repetition.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: If you think about it, you know, and that you know, I'm assuming that mental health would be in the same ballpark, especially mental health.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: You know, the more you do it, the more of these sessions I did, the more at peace I got with it.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Do you have?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have any daily practices that you do that kind of keep you on track and keep you mentally, you know, in the right place or a good place?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: So, like you know, even when I was writing this book, you know, every time I wanted to drink, man, and pick up a bottle, like I'd always have these emotional Charlotte's Web of words and throw them on paper.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: They may make sense, sometimes they may not, you know, but I've learned to write, you know, and like getting to dabble in poetry a little bit, you know.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: And then also, man, just just praying and just spending time with my family when we're all done with the day and having those real conversation, a real conversation.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: You know, when we're all done with the day and having those real conversation, a real conversation, you know, um, and it goes to the point, like, have you ever like you know I'm bad at this not checking up on my, you know, my battle buddies or whatever, but every now and then I'll call him, you know I'll be like, hey, man, how are you doing?
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Really like, instead of like, hey, how's it going, man?
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: You know there's a connection there, you know, to how you ask it.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: You know the sincerity.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now how, how, in terms of your family.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: You know, there there must've been some, some challenges, stresses.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: There, as you're, I mean, I could see multiple things one, the deployments, and then to the retirement, and you know, when the one spouse struggles, the other one struggles too.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: I mean it's, it's, it's.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: You're struggling with alcohol, and just even that aside, just the the, you know, loss of purpose and all the difficulties there, and she's feeling that and and child and and all that.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: How did you work through some of that as a family?
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I think that you know, my wife's a very observant person, you know, and, and she she was smart to to recognize that sort of.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: She knew what was going on, the why behind a lot of this stuff, you know, and and she knew that that I was in this cycle and that that I was, I was falling man and, like she knew, if she didn't intervene you know, in good honor, thank god she did it to, you know, basically demand me to get help then.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Then I would be, I'd probably be in a ditch somewhere, man, I don't know, you know, um, but she recognized that and then I got help and you know, like I said, I'm a better, better father and husband.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Because of that, you know, and you know, and all the deployments, you know, she's my rock man, she held the house together, all that stuff, you know.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I think it when, like they say, when we signed up for this life, they signed up for it too.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of times we forget that as aviators or whatever the job is, you know.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've interviewed some military spouses of service members with PTSD and even then I got a new appreciation for, really, because, how difficult they had, because then after the service member came home and then you know so there's all the all the worry and fear and so on going on during deployment.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Then they get back.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: They're not the same person, totally changed and just trying to live with this new normal, and some of the PTSD was really really bad new normal and and some of the ptsd was really really bad and so, um, they're, you know, some days a spouse just trying to keep the person alive, oh yeah, as well as the children and da, da, da, and take and pay them bills and like the amount of burden they had was was just as I'm interviewing them, I'm like I don't think I could do what you're doing right now, like I think I'd be under, like I think I'd go under and they're somehow surviving each day and managing to get the problem solved and get to the next day and so on.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: It's really, it's really something.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I admire my wife a lot, man, because she, you know, she was getting her degree during all this, you know, and just you know, dealing with me and you know my BS after coming home and it just takes a.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: That's how I knew it.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: In a way, though, it's, it's real love, man, cause she's stuck with me through all this, you know, and didn't have to, you know.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, um, that's the.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: The important thing is that you made it through and, um, you're using your experiences to help other people.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, thank you, and we're going to make sure, on the podcast all all of our, we put out the show notes and the social media and stuff People can can get access to your book.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Um, and I think, uh, you know it's, writing a book itself is challenging.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Just just because you know that's a whole different skill than shooting guns and flying whatever else like this is a whole new.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: When you, when you sat down, when you decide to write the book, did you have any fear about?
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: You know your ability to do it.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: It's funny you mention that, man, because a long time ago I took a college placement exam, right, and like they were like this is like even before, like 2000 or something like that, you know, because there's this thing, it's called the Community College Air Force Year 2 degree for enlisted guys, and then before I could even I had to take a college placement exam before I could even take English, regular English, I'll call it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: They like basically, like hey, man, you read and write on like a fifth grade level, You're going to have to take this, this pre-class.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: You know, long story short.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I did, I think, like a book report on like, uh, where the red fern grows, or something like that.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm stupid like that yeah, but yeah, I mean there was some doubt, man, but at the end of the day, man, the more I felt the words I was putting on paper, the more the better it sounded, I guess you would say.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: And then there's the fear of how would this be received by the veteran community, stuff like that.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But for the most part, man, everybody, from what I understand, a lot of people feel the same.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: They're glad I did it, you know.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure they are.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I, I um, do you uh meet with veteran groups frequently and talk about your experiences and that kind of thing?
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: uh, no, I'd not, not frequently.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: No, but I have a basically there's this thing called the Equinox Ranch back home in Culloway, north Carolina, and I did a book signing and the whole place is for veterans to heal.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: What I did was there was a lot create like a hub, you know.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: For you know, every veteran has a story, for you know a way for a veteran to get their words on paper edited published.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you know, hopefully free of charge.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: You know something like that yeah, that's interesting.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Um, I uh, you know, I was recently talking to someone else who was interested in the same kind of idea about she's a counselor and she said there's a lot of counselors that have been thinking about writing.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I'd love to create a publishing opportunity for him, that kind of thing, things.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: So, um, but, yeah, um, the one thing they I'm actually in north carolina too and there's a uh group called veterans coffee.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: They meet every tuesday morning like 8, 30 to 10, 30 and um, they, they have them in in multiple cities.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: I could, uh, you're interested, I give you the contact information of the person she runs it, but they love having people like you in, just come in the morning, share what you're doing, talk about the book and stuff like that, and I've also been invited to American Legion posts and that kind of thing.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: So one thing I would just encourage you to think about doing is just reaching out to those groups and, like I said, I can give you the email address.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: They love people to just come in.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: They, you get a few minutes, like in my case, you get a few minutes, you know.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: So 10, 15, 20 minutes, whatever.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Talk about you, your experience, the book, and just share with people and the veterans really like it because what's interesting is, a lot of the veterans in those groups are your Korean War Vietnam guys.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: So it's great to connect with veterans from several generations back, and one of the things that we probably need to do a better job as a veteran community in general is getting the younger veterans veterans like you and I that have been at OEF, oif and that kind of thing connected with these Vietnam guys and stuff like that, because it's really you know we can support each other and stuff.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, 100%.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: You know, and I would you know.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I settled down here in New Mexico, the land of enchantment.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: But you know the good thing about this day and age, man?
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: The one thing COVID did show us, I guess, is we could do like we're doing now, man Zoom.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Whatever the case, is.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: We're all connected.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: You know could do like we're doing now, man zoom.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Whatever the case is, we're all connected, you know, yeah, so, uh, what's?
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I did want to ask, though?
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Um, we've been talking about some really heavy stuff here for a while, and uh, it's all good stuff, like it's important to hear, but what were some of the fun things that you did during your time as in aviation?
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: so some of the fun things that you did during your time, as in aviation, some of the fun, I mean just flying in general.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Man, you get to see, you know, the world of a different, different view man, you know there's some beautiful places.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Even afghanistan, I mean there was, there were some beautiful places we'd fly over.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Um, some of the fun, you know the tdy's to like.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: You know, going to red flag to vegas for 30 days was fun.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I mean just the camaraderie man, the, you know the, the pranks downrange you.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: You learn really fast.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: You know when you got time on your hands, right, you know I don't know there's a limit, right, but you mess with people, sort of like a ride of patches type thing.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: They mess with you.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: But yeah, um, just the, the people.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: I've been to some great places.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I've been to some terrible places but it all all balances out, you know yeah, I think.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: I think the camaraderie ship is what everybody by and large says they miss, I mean oh yeah by the time you retire.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I I did 32 years.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: The work I didn't miss.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I mean it was, yeah, it didn't take any time at all for me to go.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I'm glad I'm not Cause at some level.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: As you get to the higher headquarters level, it's all very administrative and reporting.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: It's all very abstract, away from like what's happening on the tactical level and you know it can be boring as hell.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: I mean it really can be the job you know, but you're getting paid good money and but you're around people.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, in most cases that you've you've grown to love and you've grown to look forward to seeing and stuff like that.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: And so when you leave that active duty and that that's a friend of mine who serves on our board said um, you know he did what you talked about earlier.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: He said well, how are you really doing?
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I said I'm lonely.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Actually, you know I work from home, which is nice.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I see my wife every day and so on.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not deploying but just that camaraderie and you know it's good to be with her and my kids and so on.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: But there's something missing there.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And he said do you need to get involved with a veteran group?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Or you know some veterans that you talk with regularly and that was great advice.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Uh, cause it does.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: It does make a difference, for sure.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Um well, I I think we've covered everything I want to.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: It's great, been great, having you on the show.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Where can people get your book?
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can find it on Amazon or Barnes, noble online Basically anywhere they sell books.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: You should be able to find it.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: And then also, trademarker Media has a link to like no matter what country you're in, you can click at the bottom of it and it'll take you to the Amazon place to buy that.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, and give us the name of the book.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: One more time.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: It's called Moon Child.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: It looks like this right here.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: It's got a mighty God's chariot there, the C-130.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, got it.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: And my mask.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Moon Child, the Roots and Wings of a Combat Special Missions Aviator, Okay, awesome.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Well, it's been great having you on the show, anthony, and uh, I hope you uh have the great, a great rest of your day and a great weekend.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Dr Roberts.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, man.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you.