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Nonfiction Books & Journalism with Justine Barron · WriterCon

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This week on the writer KHN podcast, Enjoy Writing. You know, I
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don't understand how many people pursue his career and find it just painful without any
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aspect of joy. But for me, I've hit walls where I stop enjoying
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it. I switched genres where I figure out what I have to say that's
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enjoyable to me. So yeah, I mean to me, that's where it
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comes easily. It's fine. I have the most success is because I'm finding
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joy in it, even if it's a tough subject. Welcome to writer KHN,
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a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the writing
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world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of the
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Red Sneaker books on writing, and Renee Gutteridge, best selling author of over
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thirty novels and screenplays. Hey, they're writers. Big shout out to all
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the friends I made last weekend at Between the Pages, a lovely conference Laura
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and I attended in Springfield, very well organized, Greek group of people,
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And of course I couldn't help but notice that when we were in Springfield,
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we were but an hour away from Branson, where we're hosting the Writer khons
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small group retreat next month July nineteen through twenty third. Actually, okay,
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Renee, I know you've attended a writing cruise because you talked about that on
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a previous podcast. Have you ever done anything like these, you know,
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intensive small group retreats with more one on one and stuff. Oh yeah,
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well I've run them. I wish we had had these kinds of things back
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in the day when I was trying to get published. Maybe they were going
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on. I didn't know about them, but I sure would have attended them.
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But I have run them myself, and they are wonderful. If you
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ever get a chance to go to one, especially Bill Bernhardts, go for
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it because you will get a master class and one just a few days what
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she said. But yeah, the retreat is next month. But if you
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can't make that, of course, you know. I'm gonna talk about writer
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Con, the big writer's conference we host every November September rather September one through
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four this year, and Renee, you're also in charge of the private consultations
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and manuscript reviews, which are similar and the people get, you know,
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complete one on one interaction even though it's a big conference, right, That's
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true. It's like many, many, many intensive and sometimes it's very intense,
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but it's awesome and it's definitely worth coming for. You will get a
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lot of exposure to professionals that you wouldn't otherwise get, So I highly highly
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recommend. Those were the kinds of things that they had back in the day
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that got me to where I am now. Those were the connections and the
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networking and the little gems I got from the professionals that built my career.
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Yeah. Well it's the best us to both worlds really. I mean ryder
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Khn is because of course it's a big conference. If you're just comfortable,
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I want to sit and listen to smart people talk about the writing business and
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craft and arch, you can do that. Or if you want to interact
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with people and more you know, uh, more intimate. That sounds wrong
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though, I was trying to come up with a different word and more personal
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ways. Perhaps then you got that option too, Jesse, I know you've
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been to ryder Khon. Have you ever been to Branson? Oh, I've
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been to Branson. Um, yes, we went. Some friends of mine
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and I went and like stayed at like like a you know, a lake
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house type thing, and then we did so, you know, Silver Dollar
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City, the Titanic Museum, all that stuff. So cool. Well,
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we dragged you to the cruise, I mean maybe next year retreat and Branson
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listen, I'm listen. Branson cracks me up. So it's a it's like
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I'm you know, it's like, uh, just the fact that like it's
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like a very dry city that's not a dry city. Um, the like
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the riverboat things that are also very dry but not um, it's just like
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it's it's it's it's an idea what Jesse did when he was Yeah. Yeah,
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it's a lot of a lot of pregaming for things in Branson, um
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prefuncting. Yeah, and but no, it's also just a really beautiful place.
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So table Rock for sure. It is gorgeous. Yes, and I'm
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looking forward to seeing it at the retreat next month. All right. Our
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interview today is with Justine Baron. Her work has appeared in Man, Rolling
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Stone, NPR, and on stages all across the country. Her investigative stories
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have been picked up by national news outlets, and she's pursued her longtime interest
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in justice by investigating and writing about the death of Freddy Gray while in Baltimore
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Police customed custody. She has written a new book about it called They Killed
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Freddy Gray, The Anatomy of a Police Brutality cover Up, which will be
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released later this year. We'll talk to Justine after the news segment, and
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a brief word from our friends at draft to Digital. Hi. This is
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Kevin Thompinson with Draft to Digital. E books are amazing, but there's just
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Come check out d to D print and all the cool duels we've built
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for you. Find out more at drafted digital dot com. Okay, I'm
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not sure I can really claim this as a news item because news and Place
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knew and we were just talking about this this week. But we've got an
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update on the story. You may recall if you were with us last time,
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about the author who has now been charged with murdering her husband. This
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author is the author of a book four children designed to help them get home
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for the grief of losing a parent, which how much further, do I
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have to go before you start to see all the ironies here? I mean,
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there's so many, hardly even though she was writing it with her sons
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to help them give get over the loss of their father, who she's now
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accused of murdering by poisoning him with a spiked drink. She allegedly, we
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are now told, thanks to a court hearing two days ago as we're recording,
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that the prosecutors got their hands on her phone and were able to not
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only read texts, but see what Google searches she had made on her phone,
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a lot of which disappointed. Yeah, you know, well, well
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I'll get to that in a second. Anyway, let me finish my sentence.
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So the whole point was whether or not to give bail to Corey Richins,
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who's been in behind bars since she was arrested, and the prosecutors,
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urging the court not to do so, cited Internet searches found on her phone
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that included if someone is poisoned, what does it go down on the death
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certificate? As and ken cops force you to do a lie detector test.
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And by the way, the spelling is atrocious, and this is an author
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what is a lethal dose of fentanyl, and my favorite, the one that
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she clearly did not research long enough how to permanently delete information from an iPhone.
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Jesse, what I remember most about the last time we talked about it
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was you saying she's an author? Has she never read a mystery novel?
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Right? Didn't she understand that somebody would do an autopsy? I don't understand
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how anyone lives in America and doesn't know the sort of basic general steps and
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murder investigation takes just from movies, TV shows, whatever. There's no way
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to avoid knowing the base standards for what happens when someone is murdered. We
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as Americans are obsessed with it. There's literal genres dedicated to it. I
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just I don't. I don't get this, and hopefully you're was my text
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to you about this story? Why it's here? Or did you already have
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it listed? No? I got it from your although Renee I mentioned it
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later too, But he's found out because of your text. Okay, Yeah,
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so Google knew exactly what I wanted to see about the story because I
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was like, now, but I mean it, whether you read or watch
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TV shows or what, how can you not know that even I think today,
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before they take fingerprints, they're going to try and get your cell phone.
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Yeah, everybody lives on their phone, and they're gonna see what you've
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been texting and emailing and searching for. And definite lack of preparedness. If
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it turns out to do that, she's done what she is alleged to have
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done. Renee, You're probably thinking, this is the plot of my next
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novel, right, Well, it completely I couldn't sell this novel. It's
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so ridiculous. And that, I mean I would flip it on his head,
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right we talk about, you know, flipping the script or whatever.
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I'd be I would say like she was set up because clearly who would do
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this, And that's spellings are if you can't an author would never I mean
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as all authors that would be Google with correct spelling, Like we can't help
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ourselves. We go back and we correct it and we do it. And
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so this it's just baffling. I mean, we will all be following this
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because it's just very very hard. Well, the whole crime is hard to
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understand in it itself, besides the fact that she took out life insurance policies
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right before. I mean my goodness. It's just it's a mess, and
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from beginning to end. So I don't know. I'm pretty sure this was
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gonna end up on the line. How did she have time to write a
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book and get it published before all of these things came out, is my
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question. I guess it was a while before they charged her. I don't
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know why it took so long. I know i's backlogs for autopsies and whatnot,
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but wow, I mean, like just the standard stuff that happens when
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someone dies. You think the cops will be like, well this is weird.
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Yeah, right off the bet well, as soon as they got the
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Fox report, certainly. I just want to know. I want, like,
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I can just imagine her lawyers just face palming. Take this case.
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You would everything from She even asked her, I mean, this is all
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alleged, this is everything I've read. But her friends, where do you
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get Fenton al She took out a live insurance policy. She's googling basically,
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where do you hide the body? How to get away from away? Yeah?
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Where was youven? A show called that? Just watch that lady.
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Yeah, I mean not that we're rooting for her by any means, But
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now you're convincing me she must have been framed Rene. So that's how I
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would it, because I couldn't sell this novel. It's too ridiculous. Even
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if she was framed, even the framing is too obvious, Like it's just
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not parts of this are smart. It's her working in reverse to make it
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look like a frame. Yeah, like those so twisty. I guess that
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would be the good story if it's like someone just really bad at framing people.
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So that's great. I should explain to everyone that she was not released
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on bail. In fact, although this is my personal moment, her defense
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lawyer said she should be eligible for bail because there is and I'm quoting,
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no substantial evidence to support the charges end quote. So now I'm stepping out
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of my role as co host and speaking as someone who's been to law school.
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Author. You need a new lawyer because these guys don't know what's going
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on. Okay, yeah didn't you? Also, way, didn't she also
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google search like luxury prisons. She may get a she may get an insanity
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defense going because that would be a better play. Yeah right, yeah,
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Okay, Well, okay, let's move on to an actual new news story.
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This one centers around how many of you thought my next words were going
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to be Taylor Swift, and yet that's what it turned Probably only Jesse and
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Renee, right, this is true. My kids have said that I am
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probably the world's oldest Swiftie. So of course I immediately noticed this story because
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it involved not only books but Taylor Swift, and also because it seems to
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me it answers an age old question, like for decades at least, publishers
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have been trying to find the formula for producing a best selling book, and
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I think now they finally have their answer, and the answer is Taylor Swift.
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So here's what happened. There's this untitled book that was being listed and
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available for pre order, but it was listed only as four c untitled flat
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Iron non Fiction Summer twenty twenty three with a yet to be announced author.
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And yet phenomenally, this vague book started shooting up the sales charts in the
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United States after other Swifties pieced together clues and came to the conclusion that it
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might be a memoir by the thirty three year old singer known for to be
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Fair, peppering her songs with references to past relationships and other Easter eggs for
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the major fans. This book shot to number two on Ambazon. That's like
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of the whole Kindle store number two. It was number one on Barnes Noble's
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pre orders chart. You're probably wondering what some of these clues were. I'll
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give you a couple. The book, according to listing, was five hundred
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and forty four page, which is a pretty thick memoir for a thirty thirty
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three year old actress or a singer. But whatever. But the point is
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that the numbers four, five, four, four at up to thirteen,
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and as every swifty nose, thirteen is Taylor's favorite number. But there's more.
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The mystery book, which was described as being a quote biography or autobiography,
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and I'm like, well, which they're not the same thing, and
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that would be helpful anyway. It was set to be released on July ninth,
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which, of course is the same date mentioned in the lyrics of Taylor's
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song Last Kiss, which is going to be on her new album, which
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is set to release on July seven, which is practically the same date.
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So you see, it was clear, It was clear enough to say,
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so don't see but keep going. Well, it was enough to sell a
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whole lot of pre orders. Yeah, our viewers can't see screenshot, but
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the Twylers the Taylor Swift book hashtag on TikTok has eight point five million views.
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Taylor Swift book on TikTok, right, which only exists because of this.
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I mean, she hasn't written a book. Yeah, anyway, she
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wouldn't, like here's the thing, like she doesn't need to do the secret
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th part, like the book would sell millions of copies. Yeah, yoh
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yeah yeah yeah. But and to be fair, you know, she does
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these kinds of gaming mystery things when she releases new albums or new songs too,
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so it's probably not completely impossible. But as it turned out, you
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probably know where this is going. It took several days, but eventually Variety
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broke the story and said that they could report quote for certain, that this
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mystery author is not Taylor Swift. Yeah yeah, that that doesn't narrow it
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down really much. But as it turned out, the book was actually about
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music, but not about her. It was it's actually going to be called
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Beyond the Story ten year Record of BTS, which, as I know,
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you know, is a South Korean boy band that's also interesting. Yeah,
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so you're saying you'd buy that one? Is that? But like it's another
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big music genre that is very popular amongst the same age group as Taylor Swift.
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So and we'll probably sell you know, a lot of copies on the
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zone now that people know what the actual title is. I thought you were
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going to say, like Variety says, the book was not authored by Taylor
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Swift, was going to be about her more interesting Well, of course that
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would yeah, I mean anybody could do that. Yeah, and then my
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tea could probably do that. Given so I'm thinking about listing my I mean,
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I love codes and puzzles. I'm pretty sure I could come up with
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that some readily solvable cryptogram or something to be the title of my next pre
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order, which suggests that it's actually Lady Gaga's memoirs. I'm just working on.
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How can I get the code out there? I don't know any and
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Jesse, you tell me how then do I release it? How do you
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get an online rumor started? You gotta like make a fake Reddit account to
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start posting in lots of different like literary subreddits about like I wonder what this
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book is about eventually, like somebody will follow up that question, and then
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you make a second fake Reddit account to comment on that first one, and
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then you know, makes up really cryptic TikTok videos. That sounds like a
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lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work, all right.
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One last story and has to do with a major literary agency losing some of
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its credibability. At least according to some in the public eye. This is
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not really a fun story, But I think it's important that we cover stories
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like this because authors already have enough to worry about, and it's best to
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stay vigilant about who does and does not have your best interests at heart.
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I know when Renee and I are trying to figure out who to invite to
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Writer Con, for instance, it's important to us that we have real credible
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agents and publishers and people we would be happy to work with ourselves. This
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one will not be invited. In the past weeks, dozens of authors have
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reported that a major literary agency, new Leaf Literary, has dropped them from
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representation. Some of these authors were in the middle of contract negotiations with publishers
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and now are going to be left high and dry without an agent. Representing
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them. Some of them say they were notified that their agent was in effect
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firing them by an email at ten pm on a Friday evening while they were
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in the midst of negotiations. Some reports are indicating this was a result of
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new Leaf letting one of its agents go and rather than finding new representation for
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the agency's client, they just dropped all their clients altogether. I mean,
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that's a different incident, but another one that's been reported. New Leaf is
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claiming that the splits between agents and agency were amica amicable, but a lot
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of the clients involved have definitely disagreed. I mean, it's back and forth,
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and if you want the latest, there's a lot of information on a
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website we've mentioned before, which is called writer Beware, which is using this
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case to call for a more transparent protocols to be shared. You know,
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here's a clear agreement between agent and client about what's going to happen and what's
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legit to do and what is not. I don't know, Renee, like
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me, you've had agents. What bothers you the most about this? Well?
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Goodness, Well, let me say I've had a twenty year career and
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I've had one agent. I'm very good unfortunate, yes, very very fortunate
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to have found gold on the first try. But I certainly have heard lots
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of horror stories over the years on these types of things, and it's unfortunate.
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You know, it's sad for the authors and and it's sad that an
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agency would handle things like this. I mean, it's hard to understand since
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we don't really know what the original issue was and what was going on.
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But but just to drop the clients, um, it sure leaves them in
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a terrible bind, and that's never a good look. So it's a I
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feel like somebody made a bad decision somewhere along the way, but we don't
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know the background story yet, so because it's never a good look, and
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it seems like really bad business too. And normally, you know, agencies
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want to hang on to their clients, even you know, past the point
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when they may be in their most productive period, because who knows, maybe
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we'll do it again, maybe they'll come up with something later. Absolutely,
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it's just like publishers not giving away the rights to publish books even if they
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have no plans to use them. Why give away something that you've got under
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contracted? I don't know. It feels it feels like something extreme happened,
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but maybe not. I mean, it'd be interesting to see what else comes
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out about this. But I agree like that it's bad business. It's a
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bad look. It's like there's nothing good that you can go. Oh,
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well that makes sense. Yeah, so I feel bad for the authors.
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Jesse, you got to take here. I mean, yeah, it's just
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it's just bad business. I don't this story was bad enough. Like I
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heard about it in my own world, and like I'm not in the literary
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world, and I heard about this because, um, you know, with
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all of like the you know, possible mergers and whatnot, this is like
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another piece of evidence that like competition is good because if you have more companies,
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less things like this will happen, where one company can just decide something
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and then a lot of people are out of either access or you know,
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um in this case agents. So uh, you know, if you want
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to make a pun, I feel like this company should rebrand under a new
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name, uh you know, new new Leaf. Perhaps good. Yeah that's
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my joke on that one. Oh man, Well we're not going to top
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that. So all right, queue up the music. Let's talk to just
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let us on the podcast. Thanks for having me, you bet? Okay?
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First traditional first question, if you could offer writers one piece of advice,
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what would it be. I have two in my head, but one
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I don't know, Renee, can we we do too? Yeah? Well,
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okay too? Then okay, because I couldn't decide which is better.
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So, um, you have got to enjoy writing. You know, I
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don't understand how many people pursue this career and find it just painful without any
24:49
aspect of joy. But for me, I've hit walls where I stop enjoying
24:53
it. I switched genres, or I figure out what I have to say
24:56
that's enjoyable to me. So yeah, I mean to me, that's where
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it comes easily. It's fun. I have the most success is because I'm
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finding enjoy in it, even if it's a tough subject. And then the
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other thing is and this is when I used to teach writing. You know,
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there was there was a book I don't remember right now the author,
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but it was. What I really want to say is it's all I would
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have college students like free right, and then after it was done, start
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over with. What I really want to say is because I think that can
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help you nail down what it is that you're trying to say. You know,
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oh, that's that's awesome. That's great advice. Yeah, so well,
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thank you for sharing both both great. So okay, so this your
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first book, Well, this is your first book actually, right, and
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it's getting really rave reviews from prestigious sources like Publishers Weekly. And in case
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anybody doesn't know this, it's really hard to get Publishers Weekly to review a
25:59
book, and to get in there is half the time you wish they hadn't.
26:03
But yeah, well they think at the hardcore. But but even getting
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in there is nice. So you're you're getting ready reviews. First of all,
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we got to ask, how does it feel? Well? I don't
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feel good, and I won't because I don't I don't know how to constitutionally
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enjoy any level of success. But part of it is because this subject matter
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is I'm taking on a famous case, the death of Freddie Graham Baltimore,
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changing the narrative that everyone has heard radically. Yeah, I won't be satisfied
26:42
with a few people liking it, no matter how great of a person,
26:45
how much I respect that person, until I feel like the narrative has changed
26:49
in the public sphere, and I might use it that battle. You know,
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I need help, I need listening. I need mainstream newspapers to cover
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it, and I don't know if they would because you know, I've been
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at this case for a while and struggled. So certainly felt good every time
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I saw somebody say something. It's about it in the moment, and I
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just feel like, Okay, how do I get everyone to know what happened?
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You know? Right? The marketing part is the hardest for many writers.
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I think it's hard. Yeah, and it's you. I mean,
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you and I have this in common, Justine. We've talked about true story
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before. There's another level that you want to hit that goes beyond something like
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fiction and that you know. That's the thing is you just want to change
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something. When do something, you need people to hear hear this thing,
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right, And so I love that your heart is so deeply rooted into this.
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So why don't you tell us about the book and the story and then
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how you got started with it? Sure, So this started a really long
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time ago. It was in twenty seventeen and I was just sort of blogging
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about true crime for fun and I got somebody that was working on the Undisclosed
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podcast, which is an innocence project kind of podcast, saw my writing and
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invited me and a journalist, Amelia McDonald Perry, to investigate this case of
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Freddy Gray. And that was in twenty seventeen, and we did a podcast
28:19
about it, and we didn't have most of the evidence I have now,
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but we saw through what we were being told, and Amelia, to her
28:29
big credit, was like hitting the streets of talking and witnesses. So we
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had a hunch about what really happened, and we saw holes in the narratives.
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So we told that story. And I still felt like because I think
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partly because we were two women tackling crime, because Baltimore media was so kind
28:48
of a mashed in police and gatekeeper, they weren't paying attention properly to the
28:55
information we were sharing. We were kind of excluded and marginalized, and so
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I just felt like I wasn't done getting the word out, you know.
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So I took a break from it for a couple of years, and then
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I started to like pitch maybe a documentary, and in the process of that,
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somebody, a source gave me just a gold mine of evidence and that
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was like, wow, I have everything now almost everything. I have everything
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that was known to powerful people that they buried. And you know, the
29:27
story about Freddy Gray's death. A lot of people might have forgotten that.
29:30
It was a big mystery at the time because some officials told us that he
29:36
died during the van ride and it was called a rough ride, you know,
29:40
and that the van knocked him forward in the you know, that while
29:42
it was driving, he was thrown forward. But they were trials and nobody
29:47
was convicted on that theory and there was no proof for it. There was
29:51
also a viral video of him being loaded into the van and he was screaming
29:55
and his legs were dragging. So a lot of people in the community thought,
29:57
well, he must have been killed before that because he's screaming, and
30:00
later he has a broken neck. It must be that. And what we
30:04
encountered was a different story that at one of the stops along the van ride
30:11
he was killed. And you know, I don't want to give everything away
30:15
because it is a it is a social justice book, and there is a
30:19
lot of commentary, not commentary, so much is exploration of these these have
30:23
problems in policing and police investigation, but it's also a true crime narrative,
30:30
you know, with mystery that unfolds, and you know, I definitely don't
30:33
want to spoil everything. So that's the story, you know, And that's
30:40
really part of what I talk about in the introduction to the book, and
30:42
that part of my mission is like we need to take that true crime lens
30:47
that we have on these for these like Milk Carton cases and these innocent cases,
30:52
and apply it to these police brutality cases. Does that make sense?
30:57
Too much? Too little? Fat? Yes? How did you get started
31:03
with this? Incredibly? Maybe we should give some background, give everyone the
31:08
background on the Freddie Gray case. Okay, well, yeah, the Freddy
31:14
Gray case was it was twenty fifteen April in Baltimore, and there had been
31:18
the year before some prominent cases that were either caught on video or cause major
31:22
rioting, including you know, in Ferguson, Missouri. There had been riots.
31:27
You know, there was there was Eric Garner in New York. He
31:30
was choked to death. So it was already in the consciousness and it was
31:34
boiling up in Baltimore police brutality issues and there were cases that are not well
31:38
known outside of Baltimore. Happening there where people died in police custody and the
31:44
cases were swept under the rug. So when Freddie Gray's death happened, between
31:48
the viral video the growing movement, it was just an explosion, and the
31:55
whole world showed up in Baltimore too, you know, to gather information and
32:00
try to figure out what happened, but there was so much lying from the
32:06
police department, and you know, one of the chapters of my book is
32:09
kind of about how the media unfortunately really didn't do its job to stay on
32:15
the ground, keep talking to witnesses, try to piece together it happened,
32:19
and they sort of bought into this really kind of extraordinary propaganda campaign by the
32:24
police and other officials, including the prosecutors, that people thought were heroes.
32:30
So after he was you know, he was arrested, and you know,
32:36
it was very dramatic. He had a broken neck. He died a week
32:39
later. And then Marilynd Mosby was this young black female prosecutor. She was
32:45
new and she tried six of the officers, and she was seen to be
32:51
a hero for a minute because she was filing these really major charges assault,
32:57
murder, manslaughter. But her case did it really her case was sort of
33:01
a dad in court, and the public sort of got the sense a lot
33:08
of the public, not everyone, but some parts of the Baltimore public realized
33:12
that maybe this trial wasn't serious, you know. And so my book kind
33:17
of uncovers what was really happening behind the scene. Why didn't these trials work?
33:22
What case did they put on? What case did they not put on?
33:25
If they should have? You know, you must have done a ton
33:29
of research for this, I'm guessing, yeah. I mean, when you
33:32
when you're passionate about a subject, it doesn't feel like research, you know,
33:37
it's just And then you know, because after we additionally investigated it for
33:43
undisclosed, I stayed on Baltimore crime issues because I don't know, someone described
33:49
it as my crack cocaine. I became like, I obsessed with Baltimore corruption
33:52
because Baltimore is famously like a very corrupt place, and so I kept investigating
34:00
policing. I talked to police officers and civilians and everyone, lawyers and everyone
34:06
in between to try to really understand these systems. And so by the time
34:09
I wrote the book, I had just so much to say, you know,
34:14
and investigating was just um it didn't, Like I said, it didn't
34:19
feel like research your work. You know. That's and I know about research
34:23
because I've had to do it. As you know, I was a grant
34:25
writer for work, and I've done academic research. And it's completely different when
34:31
you're just so obsessed, you know, does it? Yeah, it doesn't
34:37
feel like that at all. So the difference between, of course, writing
34:42
a story of fiction is you're dealing with real people, some have passed,
34:46
some are still with us. What's it like to work your way through the
34:54
stress of that of you know, knowing there could be lawsuits or these two
35:00
we're so wive in there, you know what I mean. Like, that's
35:01
a whole nother level that you as a writer or dealing with dealing with true
35:07
story, not only true story, but corruption and such. So how did
35:12
you deal with yes? Right? Right? And you know my background before
35:16
I got into journalism, you know, that's like my third writing career,
35:20
I was doing like the moth. I was telling stories on stage and so,
35:23
and I had also written like fictional scripts based on my life. So
35:28
I was usually like, you tell a moth story, it's true, but
35:30
you're also heightening certain things, you know, and you really can't with this
35:35
kind of subject matter. So I did have one legal threat so far and
35:39
one semi threat, so I anticipate there could be more. Where I got
35:45
really, really lucky was that I just had so many mounds of evidence.
35:51
I had so many videotaped interviews, so much footage and interviews and documents from
35:58
the police file that it really kind of told itself, you know, and
36:02
we got lawyers involved, and I did round after round of fact checking,
36:07
and honestly, every round of it, even seven months into fact checking,
36:10
I would find something. I feel like a total idiot, you know,
36:14
and like having to every sentence has multiple like things that need to be fact
36:22
checked. Yeah, it's an added concern for me because you know, I
36:27
know Baltimore Son writers who have done books, you know, nonfiction books,
36:32
and they get away with mistakes. And I won't get away with mistakes because
36:37
I was an independent just I'm a woman, you know, my reputation is
36:42
for going after powerful people, so I'm not going to get away with mistakes.
36:46
And I do have that anxiety that someone's going to do something and discredit
36:52
all of the work because it's very hard to catch everything and most of a
36:59
fool are like very expensive. You know. I paid for fact checkers for
37:05
parts here and there, right, and for different rounds of it, but
37:07
like the best fact checkers to do the whole book would have wiped me out,
37:12
wiped out my savings. So yeah, I have that stress and that
37:15
concern often. But tell me that at least your publisher did take out a
37:20
nice insurance policy, right, because that's the key thing. You're indemnified.
37:27
I'm not like, I'm not overly worried because again, it's all really just
37:32
based on things they said and did inquire. Yeah, unfortunately, truth is
37:37
a defense, but it doesn't stop people from suing sometimes. That's why I
37:40
am well, you know, I think. I mean, the woman who
37:44
threatened to sue, I was like, wow, on the one hand,
37:45
goodness, gracious, I don't want to have to pay for lawyers, and
37:49
she went away, you know, after our lawyers responded. But on the
37:52
other hand, I mean, why she doesn't want to draw attention to this,
37:55
you know, So I feel kind of protected by that. I feel
38:00
like, um, bring on the attention, good for you, because it's
38:06
only going to hurt them and help me. So and I think they know
38:10
that, which is why. I don't think I'm going to get sued.
38:14
You know, they just threatened stuff. You know how these people are lawyers.
38:20
It's not like it's not like it's Trump. I mean it's these small
38:23
it seems like small time leaders. Most of them are out of office,
38:27
you know. Yes, your bio says you also provide consulting services for political
38:34
and nonprofit groups. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah,
38:38
I mean short version is that like mostly as just a grant writer, a
38:43
nonprofit grant writer for most of my careers. That was my money. Yeah,
38:47
that was my money job for most of my career, you know.
38:52
And so sometimes I would get hired to do other kinds of writing through like
38:55
the I would have it. There would be like a firm that would assign
38:59
me to do for jobs. Usually it be a grand proposal. Sometimes it
39:02
would be another kind of proposal or speech or something else, you know.
39:07
So okay, and so you've also you were talking about writing newspaper articles,
39:13
and that's I mean, you've done a lot of writing. Justine, we
39:15
need about an hour I have to cover all these. Justine and I know
39:19
each other from a fierce female screenwriting group. So she does a lot,
39:24
But for this book in particular, did you have to change the way that
39:30
you work? You know, a book ninety thousand words or eighty or sixty
39:34
or whatever wherever you landed is much different than the article. So did it
39:37
change the way that you work as a writer. Honestly, it felt like
39:42
what I was always meant to do because with articles and there was never enough
39:46
space the moth storytelling, there was never enough space. I mean, screenplays
39:53
are discipline, you know. The screenplays led to the book because I had
39:58
a manager through that and I've done I'm a little screenwriting. But screenwriting is
40:01
like this very tight puzzle, you know, and so you have, like
40:06
you do, have page limits and worries about seem length. So just to
40:09
be able to just like no no fence in sight, write the whole story
40:15
and each chapter just kind of worked itself out. It just felt more right,
40:20
not challenging, like like the challenge was loosened. But I'm I'm like
40:24
someone described use the word ones for someone a maximalist, like more and much
40:30
more. I'm not somebody who struggles to find enough words. I have to
40:37
edit, you know, So how having the whole space of the book and
40:40
even when I was stressing about word length and stressing, my editor said,
40:45
oh, you still need more here and more here and more here. And
40:47
it was such a relief. I was like, Wow, we can just
40:51
write everything, can't we do? You know what I do? I write
40:57
short form things and it's terrible. It's terrible. I don't enjoy it.
41:02
So it's a unique it's a unique challenge when I used to do the Moth
41:07
because I used to compete in the Moth. This is again before journalism.
41:10
I used to compete in the Moth all the time. And you have like
41:13
five minutes and maybe six, you know, and like that is such a
41:16
discipline. It's very hard to say so much beginning, middle, and end
41:22
in that little time. You know. I'm glad I learned how to do
41:24
that, but please, like give me more words, you know. Well,
41:28
it's I can tell you it's it always makes you better writer to be
41:32
able to write tight and then when you get when you earn the sixty thousand
41:37
words or whatever, then every piece of it is fierce and good and wonderful.
41:43
So um, well, okay, so can we ask what are you
41:49
working on next? I'm so intrigued. Yeah, so I am split right
42:00
now. So one thing I'm thinking about doing is the teleplayer or the screenplay
42:07
of this story. And I wasn't going to you know, it always felt
42:10
very sacred to me, and the fiction and nonfiction felt like a big lying
42:15
to me, like you don't cross that and you don't mess around with the
42:19
story. But um, you know, there's some people are producing a documentary
42:23
and I don't. I am thinking that maybe I could tell the truth better
42:28
in fiction and there, and there are some examples in Central Park five.
42:32
You know, they've done a good job here and there with Oscar Grant,
42:37
the story of the I forget the name of the film, but they did
42:40
a scripted version of his police killing. And you know, the book is
42:45
cinematic, so I think I might go there with that, you know,
42:50
and write the scripted version almost like honestly, to me, it's an American
42:54
crime story. You know, they did an American crime story. Bill Clinton
43:00
did, oh Jay, I feel like a market time story, Freddy Gray.
43:04
I feel like it is that because it exists in what happened in the
43:07
neighborhood, what's happening in the police department, what's happening in the Mayor's office.
43:12
You know it's that kind of story. Well, yeah, I hope
43:16
that happens because I would like to watch it. But me too. You're
43:21
reading this book when it comes out in August two. Justine, thanks so
43:24
much for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me so fun.
43:30
I love talking about writing. I think it's so cool you do this,
43:32
and I look forward to catching up on your episodes. Thank you, thank
43:37
you. I'll do it against soon. Bye bye. Just a few parting
43:46
words I mentioned before the writer con retreat in branson Stonecastle July nineteenth through twenty
43:54
third. It's a chance to work with a smaller group of people so that
43:59
those of who are teaching can actually read your manuscripts and comment and give you
44:04
feedback and advice once on one, one on once, but one on one.
44:08
But you'll also be getting feedback from other people in the group, and
44:14
you know, we'll be talking about various topics relating to writing or publishing and
44:20
marketing. And to me, the best part of it is that I see
44:24
people in these retreats leave and become their own critique group, you know,
44:30
or beta readers for one another. Thanks to the magic of the Internet,
44:35
they can stay in touch and I just really like that. It's part of
44:42
why I always say writer Con is a family. And of course we got
44:45
the big conference coming in September two Labor Day weekend, and I hope you'll
44:52
give that a look too, And right, the website for both of these
44:55
is writer kN dot com. All Right, until next time, keep writing
45:02
and remember you cannot fail if you're abused to quit. See you next time,