Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 346: Southern Deer, Canadian Bucks, and Bears with Clay Newcomb

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Ep. 346: Southern Deer, Canadian Bucks, and Bears with Clay Newcomb · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: forty six, and today in the show, I am joined
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: by Arkansas Hunter content creator in Modern mountain Man philosopher
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Clay Newcomb to discuss Southern deer, Canadian bucks, and bears.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: All Right, welcome to the wire Hunt Podcast, brought to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: you by on X. Today's guest is Clay Newcombe, and
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I'm glad to have him here with me today because
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I think, giving these times, these these trying times here
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: during spring of um it's it's kind of nice to
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: just switch it up a little bit. While there's something
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: to be said about normalcy, there's also something to being
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: said for taking your mind off of some of the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: more negative things around you, and I think our conversation
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: today can help us do that. Um Man. I just
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: want you all to know before we get into it, though,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: that I am thinking about all of you, praying for you,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: hoping the very best for you and your family. I
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: hope you're healthy. I hope I hope you're able to
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: keep the bills paid, keep food on the table. Um,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: you as a community mean a ton to me, and UM,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I just hope that we can all push
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  Speaker 1: through this and come out the other side, healthy, happy,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and uh doing as best as we possibly can. I'm
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: really just pulling for everyone. Stick with it. UM. I
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: believe in you. Whatever struggle you might be going through
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: right now. UM, if you're part of the wire hunt community,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: you've got you've got a lot going for you. So
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: that said, I do hope this podcast can help you
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: take your mind off of whatever negativity might be out
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: there right now, whether it's just the news or whether
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: it's some kind of challenger going through yourself. This podcast,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I think can put a smile on your face because
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Clay Newcome is an interesting dude, a fun guy, a
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: great person to talk to. Uh. It's probably likely you're
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: familiar with Clay, but if you're not yet, I think
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: you will. He's making a great name for himself within
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: the hunting community. He's a damn good hunter. He's got
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: his head on a swivel. He approaches his his hunting
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: and how he shares his hunting message. I think in
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a thoughtful manner, and he's just a great storyteller. So
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: from my perspective, those are good traits for human being
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: and and maybe even better for a podcast guest. So
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  Speaker 1: Clay Clay lives down in the mountains, Arkansas, where he's
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: an avid hunter of all sorts of species. He chases
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: coons with hounds, he hunts squirrels in the back of
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: a mule, and he's of course hunting turkeys and deer
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: and bears all across the country. He's a very serious
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: avid deer hunter, but maybe even more so when it
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: comes to bears. He is the owner of Bear Hunting Magazine.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: He's the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. He's
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the creator of the Bear Horizon YouTube series. And he's
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: also the subject of a terrific new film put together
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: by our friends over at First Life, documenting Clay's unique
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: hunting lifestyle and philosophies. And in that film, a friend
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: of Clay's describes him as a cross between Robert Frost,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: although Leopold and Andy Griffith. So, I mean, how can
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you not want to chat with a guy with that
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  Speaker 1: kind of lead up? So that's exactly what I got
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  Speaker 1: to do. I enjoyed it. I think you will. It
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: was everything I was hoping it might be. We discussed
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Clay's thoughts on the sacredness of hunting. We talked about
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: the trials and tribulations of raising an outdoor family. We
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: discussed Southern deer hunting culture, Southern deer hunting tactics, UH,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: trophy hunting, what that is? What that isn't all the
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: stigma around it. We talked about chasing big bucks up
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: in Canada, some of the trips he's done up into
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  Speaker 1: the Great White North. We discuss the appeal of bear hunting,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Clay's pitch to all of us to why we should
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  Speaker 1: give bear hunting a shot. We discussed eating bears, and
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: just a whole lot more. This one was was a
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: fun change of pace. Like I said, I think you're
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: gonna enjoy it. I can't wait for you to give
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  Speaker 1: it a listen. So, without further ado, I hope you're well,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: stay safe, and let's get into my chat with Clay Newcomb.
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  Speaker 1: All right with me on the other side of the
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  Speaker 1: line today, I've got Clay Newcome. Welcome to show. Clay, Hey, Mark,
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  Speaker 1: appreciate you making the time to do this. Um I've
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: been kind of keeping tabs on the stuff you've been
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: putting out there on the web for a number of
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: years now and have enjoyed what I've seen. But we
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: haven't really got to spend much time chatting. Uh not
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in person this time, but you know, getting to have
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: a longer conversation. So I'm glad we can finally do this. Yeah,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: my pleasure. Man. You know, we bumped into each other
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: at a t A. I don't know if you remember that,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: but just for a brief handshake. But that's uh, that's
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: about it. And no, yeah, it's good to finally connect
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: with you for sure. It's funny that in this kind
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: of digital world we live in, you can almost no
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: feel like you know someone just by watching their stuff
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: or listening to their podcasts, or reading their things or
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: following them on social media, and then when you bump
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: into each other in person that one time, it's like, oh, hey,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: how you doing. You think you're old friends? Um, I
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: hadn't happened at a t A. All the time you
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: see someone and and you're chatting for a while, and
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you realize, oh, you know what,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: I don't think we've ever met in person. The weird
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: thing these days. But but you know, I got to
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: thinking about you recently. Um, You've been on my list
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: of folks that I should talk to for a while,
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  Speaker 1: but I was reminded to reach out to you recently
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: because of that very cool film that our buddies over
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: at First Light produced, Um talking about your story. And
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I think I'm right about this. It was the boys
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: that captured creative that that did all that right. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: So Jordan's Riley came down along with Ford van Fawson,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: he for works for First Light, and they were here
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  Speaker 1: in Arkansas for I think four days in February of
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so it was over a year ago that
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: they shot that and uh, yeah, it was. It was
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: really fun having them here and and shooting the video
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: was just it was it was a lot of fun.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: And uh, I didn't really know what to expect from
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: that film because they they came down at kind of
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  Speaker 1: a time when not a lot was going on. Um,
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  Speaker 1: you know, late February here are deer seasons are still
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: going on, Our squirrel seasons are our coon seasons, which
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that's all stuff that I'm doing. And uh, and they
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  Speaker 1: kind of just said, well, that's what we want to do.
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  Speaker 1: And um, so I was super pleased with the I mean,
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  Speaker 1: Jordan and those guys, they'd have a hard time not
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: making anybody look good. So I gotta give them a
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  Speaker 1: lot of credit for telling the story. But but but
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  Speaker 1: I was in my family is what was as well
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: my wife was that we were thrilled that they kind
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  Speaker 1: of captured what they did in the sense of the
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: balance and families and you know, I talked about a
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  Speaker 1: lot of stuff that wasn't on the film, and so
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  Speaker 1: you know, and you know how these films are made,
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  Speaker 1: or maybe people do, maybe they don't, but I mean
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of content that's captured and and really
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  Speaker 1: very little that's used. And so I was drilled with
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  Speaker 1: the way with the way it turned out, and uh yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I've been really fun. So, um, I gotta tell you
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  Speaker 1: you and I are in a similar boat. And so
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  Speaker 1: I know, you know, you must be not quite as
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: eloquent and intelligent and as good of a hunter as
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: they make you look in that film, because I say
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  Speaker 1: that because captured creative produced and edited my show back
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  Speaker 1: forty and I'm not as eloquent or good at a
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  Speaker 1: hunter as they make me. Look, those guys are are
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  Speaker 1: really good at what they do. So I do know
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  Speaker 1: that there's there's a little bit of movie magic there,
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  Speaker 1: but the the the essence, the foundation has got to
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  Speaker 1: be true. So that's uh, that points to you being
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  Speaker 1: a very interesting individual. Based off of that film, Clay
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  Speaker 1: was it was well done, and you obviously have have
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  Speaker 1: a great outdoor lifestyle that you've developed for yourself and
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  Speaker 1: your family. Um, and that really that really intrigued me
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  Speaker 1: to to learn more about that. And something I've heard
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  Speaker 1: you talk about, uh and in a couple of different places,
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  Speaker 1: is about this idea of of the sacredness of the pursuit.
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  Speaker 1: I think is is a way maybe you would put it. Um,
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  Speaker 1: can you just speak to me about why you feel
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  Speaker 1: that way about hunting and this this lifestyle you cultivated
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  Speaker 1: for yourself? Um, why do you think about it in
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  Speaker 1: terms like that? You know? I had a guy I
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: was I was talking to a guy last week from
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  Speaker 1: East Tennessee in I was talking to him about why
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  Speaker 1: that I we were talking about this old man, this
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  Speaker 1: old Mount Tennessee mountain hunter, and we had just interviewed
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  Speaker 1: him and I went back so as a younger man
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  Speaker 1: and me and this older man. When me and the
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  Speaker 1: younger man came back, I said, why, why was that
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  Speaker 1: important that we just talked to this old guy that
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  Speaker 1: to us had lived in extraordinary life as a mountain
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  Speaker 1: hunter in East Tennessee. And he said, he said, what
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  Speaker 1: makes life worth living is that some things are just sacred.
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  Speaker 1: Some things are just set apart as things that we
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  Speaker 1: deeply value, and they could be nuanced things that maybe
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  Speaker 1: somebody else wouldn't understand. And to me, hunting has just
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  Speaker 1: always been that. I feel like that inside of hunters,
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  Speaker 1: there is this sense of sacred nous inside of of
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  Speaker 1: all of us. Some people it's really strong. Other people
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  Speaker 1: that people it might be, it might be less, but
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  Speaker 1: it just reflects our our value system. I was sitting
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: with an old We interviewed an old Tennessee mountain bear
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  Speaker 1: hunter a couple of months ago, and I was with
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  Speaker 1: It was two guys. It was me and another guy
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  Speaker 1: interviewing this old guy. And we talked to this guy
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  Speaker 1: and and it really lived in extraordinary life just hunting
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the mountains. To him, it was just a normal life,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: and to his peers it was just a normal life.
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  Speaker 1: And but to us, you know, he was talking about
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  Speaker 1: the old days and the way they hunted and it
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  Speaker 1: was extraordinary. And I asked my buddy, I said, why
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  Speaker 1: after the fact, Mark, I asked him, I said, why
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  Speaker 1: was that valuable what we just did and what we
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  Speaker 1: learned from this guy? Because he didn't he didn't teach
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: us anything. I mean, he didn't, he didn't. He didn't
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  Speaker 1: teach us something that we didn't know about bear hunting.
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  Speaker 1: But and uh, my buddy Tracy said, he said, some
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  Speaker 1: things are just sacred and that sacredness is what makes
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: life worth living. And it was it was so simple,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: and the way that he said it, it was just like, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that what that man's life and what he did in
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  Speaker 1: the mountains because of what I value is sacred to
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  Speaker 1: me to to honor that and and you know, basically,
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  Speaker 1: what we regard as sacred reflects our value system. And
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  Speaker 1: I know that ever since I was a kid. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: there's been nothing in my life that held the same
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: places as hunting. And as you would know, and as
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: we would know as as hunters, that's not just killing,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: but it's the lifestyle, it's the culture, it's the people.
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  Speaker 1: You know, Hunting is really a whole lot more about
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  Speaker 1: people than we give it credit for, you know, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: without without peers, without those deep human relationships, hunting actually
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  Speaker 1: loses a lot of value. And even when you go
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: to the foundations of hunting, hunting is about provision for family.
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  Speaker 1: At the very core essence of what it means for
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  Speaker 1: a person to go out and harvest protein and bring
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  Speaker 1: it back is about this provision, It's about this relationship.
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  Speaker 1: It's about people. And that's what I keep going back to.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really interested in hunting culture and how
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: hunting has shaped our culture and really how hunting shapes people.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: And I think, like on a personal journey, that's what
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I am interested in, is how has hunting shaped my
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: life because it has in in in deep ways that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: are hard to even communicate about sometimes. But but and
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and on the on a very practical level, like actually
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: pursuing wild game, that challenge is so primitive, so innate
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  Speaker 1: to human nature, that to do that in in a modern, urbanized,
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  Speaker 1: civilized society is just such a rare human privilege that
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I think we have this window, this gateway back into
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: really who we are as humans. And I think that
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: makes us different. I think that makes us inside of
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: modern society being functional, normal humans. It makes us something different,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and I think it, you know, I think it makes
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: us better humans. I think it makes me a better worker.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I think it makes me a better husband. I think
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: it makes me a better father if it's handled right.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, anything that we're passionate about can be
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: blown out of proportion and actually messes up our life
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: in anything. But if it's if it's handled right, I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: think that that passion and things that we value, which
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: in our case is hunting, makes us better people. So
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: how do you pass along this this value system, or
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: this this sense of sacredness that you have for for
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: wild places and wildlife and and and way that these
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: experiences have shaped you and made you a better person.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: How do you personally go about trying to pass that
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  Speaker 1: on to your family, to your children? Because I have
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I've got a young family, have a two year old
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and a two month old. Now this is something I'm
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: thinking about a lot these days. Um, how do you
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: how do you how's that part of your life? Because
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: because it seems like families are in a very important
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: thing for you. Yeah, that's a fantastic question, and I
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: think that's the answer. That really the whole hunting community
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is looking for. And you know, I think that more
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: than we could ever teach our kids, and this would
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: be with any kind of value system in our life. Really,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: they become some reflection of who we are. So to me,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: the best way that I have transferred, you know, a
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: love for the outdoors hunting to my children has just
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: been them observing the my life and and and being
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: actively involved in it very purposefully. But I guess what
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is more than what we teach them,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: it's who we are that influences them. And uh, and
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: it has come you know, my kids, Mark, I'm I'm
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: forty years old. We started having kids when we're pretty young.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: My oldest daughter is eighteen. So I've got eighteen year old,
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  Speaker 1: sixteen year old, fourteen year old, and twelve year old
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  Speaker 1: and um, all of them have been involved in hunting.
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  Speaker 1: My oldest is not as interested anymore, but the three
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: younger are are are very interested in hunting, and UM
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and I have I have made a diligent effort over
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the years to include them in almost everything I possibly could.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, I drug them around when my other buddies
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: weren't dragging around their kids. And I think that's to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: be noted, is is there is a sacrifice for anything,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you know. But at the same time, I've I've always
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: had plenty of time for hunting myself and and take
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: it serious. You know. The idea is that if you
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: took a kid, it would be less serious or you
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: might be less successful. And I've I've always been very
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: focused on success in terms of bagging game, I really have.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: But I've also been very focused on giving them the
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: most possible exposure that they could. And so I think
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: they got to see authenticity inside the parents and really
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: see their heart and their true genuine love and passion
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and respect. But they also have to be given the opportunity.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: And it goes back to even beyond the relationship in
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: the hunting world. If your kids don't like being around
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you because you're a jerk, uh, they're not gonna probably
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: want to be around you when you're hunting and have
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: a good time, do you know what to uh? And uh?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: And I think that's where some people miss it is there.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: You know, the kids get up twelve and fourteen and
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: they all of a sudden realized they need to get
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: them involved in hunting, and a lot of the groundwork
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: hadn't been done, and so of you know, I think
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it's a holistic picture of provide them that opportunity and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and just be an authentic just having an authentic relationship
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: with your kids. You know, there's this this inherent catch
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: twenty two or or or there's this this risk factor
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I think in taking your kids out with you for
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: all these things, taking them along for all these adventures.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I'm making assumptions here, but I'm imagining there's this there's
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: this always potential for them to see something or experience something,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: or see you in a moment where hunting or you
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: or this whole thing isn't as pretty as you want
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: to be, you know what I mean. They're something went
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: wrong or where you made a mistake, or where you know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: it could be any number of things. But is there
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: any moment like that, or any mistake made or regret
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: you have when you look back at your eighteen years
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: as a father taking your children out there with you,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that you wish, man, I wish it could have taken
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: that back, or I wish they hadn't seen that, or
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: or is it all for a reason? Did it all
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: work out? Okay, you know, man, I've I've certainly made
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: some mistakes, you know, Mark, I my father and I don't.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I have no problem talking about this because he's heard
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: me say it before. But my father, I call it
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: the Gary Newcomb School of hunting hard knocks. There were
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: three brothers and I was the only one that passed.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: My My two brothers are not big hunters. They're great
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: guys and I love them. They're not big hunters. They
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: like to do some fish and stuff. And my dad
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: was just a little bit too probably hard on us.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't really, it wasn't because he was a jerk.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: It was just because his hunting time was so limited
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: that when he hunted, he had to be super serious
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: about it. And so I could have been burned from
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: hunting because I had some really negative experiences as a kid. Uh.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: The first time I ever deer hunted, Mark, I was
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: actually bow hunting. I was in the fourth grade. I
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: could pull them weight limit, and uh, my dad took
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: me out, put me up in a tree stand, you know,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: hour before dark, and I was scared to death and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: uh and actually I mean cried. I mean as a
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: fourth grader and uh it was a very traumatic experience
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: for me. It's a nine year old and uh, I
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: think a lot of and and and my dad got
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: upset with me, and uh that could have pushed me away.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: And luckily just I mean I just kind of had
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: a fire forward and it didn't quite extinguish it. But
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: so I grew up with this idea that hey, you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: could you could hurt these kids if you're not careful.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: So it's this fine line between making it enjoyable but
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: also not taking away the challenge. And I think the
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: trend of parenthood right now is to take away the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: challenge and difficulty out of your kid's life and make
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: them happy. And that trend is not sustainable for for
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: making good humans. I mean, so you but but also
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: a father, a parent has to have a sense of
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: where that individual child is at, how much challenge they
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: can take and they want to take for the maturity
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: level that they have, and building a hunt for them,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: you know. So you know, there's been lots of times
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: we you know, I mean, we used to buy snacks
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: and drinks and you know, kind of make it easy.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But at the same time we might have had the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: challenge of walking a long way or staying out in
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the rain, and and I I made that honorable. My
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: my my son who's fourteen now, his name is Bear. Uh.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: When he was six, I believe he was six years old.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I decided to take him with me on the first
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: day of Arkansas bear season and let him sit the
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: tree stand with me. We got in the stand and
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: we set for six hours in a lock on tree stand.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: He was right beside me, had him strapped in, and
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: it started to rain about three hours before dark, and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: it rained until dark, and uh, i' and he toughed
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: it out, and he basically we made that so honorable
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: to him that to this day he grins when my
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: dad or James Lawrence, the guy that we were hunting
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: with as well, UH, talks about how how he struggled
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: through that as a little kid. And and so we
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: we made the struggle honorable. You know, Yeah, that's great.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I can definitely see see the appeal or the I
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: see how that would work. And I've always thought about that,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: that same fine line you have to walk between seeing
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: hunting is something that you want to make fun for
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: your kids versus seeing hunting is something that is a
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: tool for personal development and a friend of mine had
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: had to always talk to me about how you know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: an important thing for kids to learn, especially throughout door activities,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: is the ability to become comfortable with discomfort. And I
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: think that's great. But at the same time, you always
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: hear these horror stories about how someone made it too
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: miserable for their kids and now they never want to
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: do it. So I think your experience, your experience and example,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: there's helpful. Um, when you're when you're thinking about all this,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: we're talking about all these things, it seems like you
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: you value history. It seems like both in our conversation
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: already and then justin seeing some of the work you've
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: put out there into the world, there's this awareness of
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the context that you're now part of both you know,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: in our current space today and historically. Um, what where
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: does this increment? I'm wrong on that, But where's this
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: come from? What? What inspired you? Whether where their books
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: or films or people, anything that has stoked this fire
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: within you to to live a life like this? Can
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: you point to anything or is it just your dad
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: and in habit stance? You know? I think to not
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: understand where we have come from as hunters is and
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: to just participate kind of blindly inside of this to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: me kind of personally felt a little bit irresponsible. And
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: so that's kind of my curiosity and intrigue about our
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: past and and and I'm I'm really intrigued about um.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, what I think is interesting in people is
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a deep connection to place. And so I'm really interested
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: in in Arkansas and hunting here in the Ozarks and Washingtalls,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: as well as lots of other places. But just because
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I live here, like I go out in these mountains
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: and hunt deer and bear and turkey, and there's just this.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just know I'm not the first one
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: that's done this, and a lot of the ways that
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I think have been influenced by people that have come
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: before me. And and so I just really enjoy learning
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: about um learn about those are history and those are
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: hunting and kind of where we came from, because I
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: think what we're trying to do mark as a hunting
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: culture really and whether people realize this or not, and
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and some people wouldn't care, but I know inside the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: hunting industry, we're trying to define our relevance in a
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: modern time, you know, And it's easy to define the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: hunter's relevance in times past, and so I think we're
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like why are we still relevant?
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: And and maybe I have a little bit of a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: persecution mentality being involved in the bare world so much
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: because it is a it's kind of the low hanging
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: fruit for the anti hunting community. So we we received
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: kind of a lot of uh persecution, maybe a little
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: bit hot of a word, but probably accurate. Um. So
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: you know, we're just trying to find define our relevance.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: And I think that comes from our history, and you know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: from a practical sense, like me liking traditional bows and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: mules and stuff. I think that's just a maybe a
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: result of um just growing up in rural Arkansas. What's
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: funny is that my dad hates traditional boats. I mean
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: he's just like, why would you do that? Why would
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: you go backwards? Why would you limit yourself so much?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: So I didn't really get that from him, but it
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: may be kind of one of the old father's son
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: pendulum swing bills, you know, um where where he likes something.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: So not to spite him, but just because traditional archery
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: was something new and U and you know, we didn't
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: grow up with mules and stuff. But my dad always
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: kind of thought mules were cool and and and because
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I've looked deep and decide why I like mules and
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff so much. Anyway, I think he
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: really honored that kind of stuff in the in the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: culture he saw around him. But he he was never
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: into that kind of stuff really. Um, he was in
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: the back country hunting. He hunted a lot in the
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: back country in Arkansas. And UM, I don't I hope
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that answers your question, mark, Yeah, it does, But it
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: gives me another question, which is is how do you
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: answer that existential issue that you just described that we're
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: all facing within the hunting world, which is which is
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: our relevance? If if someone were to walk up to
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: you today and say, the stuff that you're doing, the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: stuff that your whole world now revolves around, that you're
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: teaching your kids, that you make a living from, how
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: is that still relevant today? Wake up, man, look at
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the world around you. You're a relic of the past.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: How do you how do you respond to that? Well?
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I think there's two two answers right off the bat,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: is that historical precedents does matter in human cultures. I mean,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: in in biological precedence. I mean, we are predators. I
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: mean that's a strong argument. We eat meat to stay healthy.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: That's a massively strong argument. And then you get into
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: the ethics of using animal confinement protein versus a wild
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: animal protein, and you know, you can go down that trail.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: But to me, the the lynch pin and I like
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: that word. I've kind of been uh I used it
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: just the other day. I've used it before, but I
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: actually looked it up to make sure it meant what
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I thought it meant. I've been there for I've done that.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: The A lynch pin is is something that is vital
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: to an enterprise or an organization. And in the literal sense,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: a lynch pen is a is a pen that's put
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: through the end of an axle to keep the wheel
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: on an axle. The lynchpin to meet of our relevance
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: is an understanding of the North American male of wildlife
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: conservation and how because of hunting, not in spite of hunting,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: that we have the most robust big game populations in
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: the world here in North America, despite urban sprawl, despite uh,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: modern civilization. I mean, so to me, that is our
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: relevance is that, Hey, what we've been doing for the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: last hundred years, has worked to preserve wild places and
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: to uh and to preserve wildlife. And man, that's why
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: we're relevant. And and then and then because that's a
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: real functional relevance. I mean, like, really, really, if somebody
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: understood that. Now, people most of the time that aren't
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: interested won't listen long enough to truly understand it because
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it's complex. I mean, it's it's weird to say we
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: are killing animals in order to save them. You know,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: that's kind of an odd shaped pill. But you know,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. That's what I
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: like to say, is that it is an odd shaped pill.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: But if you listen long enough, it's I mean North
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: American model. And I've been reading this book by Vlarious
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Geist and Shane Mahoney. Uh. Ben O'Brien did a podcast
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: with Larious Guist. Incredible, incredible book and as far as
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: I know, it's the first and most robust piece of
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: literature that specs out all the all the parts of
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the North American model. And and uh so that's kind
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: of fresh on my mind. But that's our relevance, is
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: that it's working to say wild places and animals and
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: to feed people healthy organic protein like we've been eating
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: for the last bazillion years. Yeah, so so I'm to
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: keep on throwing on some devil's advocate or a typical
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: response you might hear from someone who has an ever
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: serial position to this um might be, well, you can
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: say that, but all you guys really care about is
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: this stuff that you can shoot. Or you say that,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: but then you look at another it is a wildlife
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: like a wolf or a coyote, and all you want
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: to do is shoot, shovel and shut up and get
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: rid of them because they're killing your deer. Uh, how
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: do you respond to that? You know, that's one of
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: the criticisms of the North American model is that it
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: has not taken into account non game species. And but
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: to me, that actually proves our point even more. You know,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, where animals are hunted, they're valued, and that
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: value produces protection and management and those animals doing well
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: in modern times. And so for someone to say, well, yeah,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: but what about you know, the songbird that's you know,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: being endangered right now and this habitat that's being tore up, Uh,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I mean I would say, well, maybe we should start
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: a hunting season for that songbird because then they probably
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: do better. That's a joke, uh, but really that's the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that's the lad um And you know, I would just say,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: that's really the depth that I could go into that
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: mark is that I would say, you have just proven
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: my point. So yeah, sure, we've not dedicated our lives
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: to saving this animal or that animal, but we have
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: dedicated our lives to save in these you know, these
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: twenty nine big game species and all the small game
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: species rabbit, squirrels, quail, turkey, and and look how they're thriving,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, it's a strong it's a strong
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: foundation to stand on. And I think you can always
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: point to the fact that most of those species are
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: you know what, what's often referred to as keystone species.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: So as long as if those are protected, then you
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: have this trickle down effect that positively influences so many others.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: So but yeah, that's these these are the questions that
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: we're getting asked all the time now and probably even
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: more so every decade from here forward. Right, So it's
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: it's good that there's people like you thinking about this stuff,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad you've got a platform to to share
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: your perspective because I think it's a good one. It's
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: a helpful one. Um. I think we need, you know,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the broader hunting community. I mean, Mark, think about it.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: You know, back in the well, I mean, it would
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: have been kind of before our time. But like back
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: in the seventies, nobody would have known a thing about
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: white tail deer in terms of the level of knowledge
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that we have today about their biology and their needs
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: and how they're managed and all these different aspects of
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: white tail deer hunting. But today, the average white tail
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: hunter probably could take a test, a written test and
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: get more answers right about deer, every aspect of deer
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: then even the experts could in the seventies, you know.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: And and what happened was there was a cultural shift.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Media started focusing on white tails and this this is
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: a great thing. And and then all of a sudden,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: thirty years later, we have this general based knowledge that's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: really high. I think that's what's got to happen for
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: in the general hunting community. For the stuff that we're
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: talking about right here, the North American model. I mean,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't grow up knowing any of that stuff. I
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: doubt you did either. Um, and it's like that's got
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to be on the tip of our tongue, not in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: a defensive position. But most people aren't defend Most people
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: aren't out to get hunting. Most people just don't know.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: You know, So your friends and family and people you
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: come into if these things are on your mind and
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: kind of part of what how you think about hunting,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: they'll come out in the way that you talk and
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: communicate act, and people respond to that when when they
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: see that there has been some reasonable and intelligent thought
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: that's gone into this and it's not just barbarians out
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: trying to kill stuff, you know. Yeah, that's that's exactly
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: been my experience too. It's just generally curiosity and then
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: typically surprised encouragement once they start to learn more about it.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: So speaking of curiosity, then I want to hear a
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: little bit more about something you alluded to a second ago,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: which was this this culture that you grew up with
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: in uh specifically maybe on the deer hunting side, because
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: this is one area that I have not spent enough
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: time and myself, so I just you know, you see
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: it a little bit in the media here, a little
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: bit about it, but you don't know anything until you've
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: lived it. Tell me about just what that hunting and
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: deer hunting cultures like in Arkansas or you're part of
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the country there. Yeah, so Arkansas would be a heavily
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: forested area. I mean, you know, naturally would have been
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: almost a forested Um. I grew up in the Washtall
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Mountains in some in an area national forest. I mean
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the town I lived in just about any direction that
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you drove, once you got out of town, you were
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: in national forest. And uh so it was it was
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: kind of, uh, what we would call mountain hunters. You know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of guys hunted big national forests, hunted the mountains,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and uh it was. It was tough hunting. Um it's
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: it's way better today. There's more deer than there were
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: when I was growing up, but but there weren't many
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: deer and uh guys, So there were two ways that
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: people hunted. I mean, they were just kind of the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: standard you know, still hunter, tree stand hunter that was
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: hunting signed in the mountains. But there were a lot
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: of guys that ran dogs too. It's one of the
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: few places in the country where you can still run
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: dogs for deer. And so that was a kind of
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: a big part of the hunting culture. And I wasn't
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: big into running deer with dogs, even though I did
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: and had, you know, as a kid, we did that. Um.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, So my dad started hunting in the early
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, got a bow and and he describes it
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: like he grew up in a fairly I mean a
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: town of maybe thirty thousand in western Arkansas, and to
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: his knowledge, there was just nobody consistently killing white tail
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: deer with a bow in the early seventies around there.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: You know, a few guys had done it, and they
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: kind of became the go to knowledge base, but they
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: really didn't do it consistently. And uh, And my dad's
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: kind of personal hunting story and and claim to fame,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: which ultimately impacted me, was he wasn't a deer hunter.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: His father wasn't a deer hunter. His father was a
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: hunter quail hunter, but not a deer hunter. Is he
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: just went out in the woods and just started pounding
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: around and found out that deer eight white oak acorns,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And found out that if you found a white oak
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: acorn tree that had about ten piles of deer droppings
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: under it, you could hang up a stand and kill
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: a deer, and uh, he started consistently killing deer with
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: his bow, and uh, he just he just loved it.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: He just loved it, and he still does to this day.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: My dad camps and hunts public land in Arkansas and
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: there's nothing that gets him more excited than a white
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: oak tree dropping acorns with deer droppings under it and
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah, And so I grew up
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: just bow hunting. Dad wouldn't let us hunt with a gun. Um,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: he was like, if you're gonna be a hunter, you're
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: gonna be a bow hunter. And it wasn't anything against guns,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: that's just what he did, you know. And so that's
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: what he wanted us to do. And yeah, so that
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: that was kind of the other side of the Gary
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Newcome school of hard knocks, was that we we had
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: to learn to bow hunt. And it was years before
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I killed the deer. I mean, my friends were killing
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: deer with guns and it just eat me up, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and I hadn't killed one. And but finally I did
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: kill one. And after I killed one, I the you know,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: the the string of success started to happen more regularly.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so really I started off as a deer hunter.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I really did and still love deer hunting just as
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: most of the day as I ever have. You know, So,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: what's what's the deer hunting like in that neck of
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: the woods now today you said it's better, Um, what
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: is that? How you still hunt? Do you look for
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: a for a white oak, find some droppings and set
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: up underneath it, or how do you go about it
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: now after you've been doing this for so many years
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: and growing yourself as a hunter? Um, how do you
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: approach it? So there's there's three ways that we're hunting, Dad.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: We're hunting in in deeper southwest Arkansas. You start getting
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: into the Gulf coastal playing of our Arkansas and it's
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of timberland, so there'll be these massive clear
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: cuts and pine plantations and they'll leave hardwoods along the creeks.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: And when you're hunting down there, really the only place
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: to target deer is along those creek bottoms where they're
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: wide oak acorns fallen or whatever kind of ocus bearing fruit. Um,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and so down in that part of the country, and
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: that's where my dad hunts. Man. We would we we
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: wouldn't really hunt funnels necessarily. We wouldn't hunt saddles. We
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: would hunt individual white oak trees that were dropping that
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: day and had fresh deer sign. And but I don't
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: hunt down there with him as much. In that setting.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: You move up forty miles and you get into the
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: big national forest, and there's less deer in the big
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: national forests. There's more deer down in the clear cuts
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and pine plants atitions a little bit further south, um
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: less deer and kind of the mature o kickory pine
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: climax forests of the Ozark and Washtaw Mountains and uh
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: much much. The deer population is way lower just because
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: of the habitat They the last twenty years they hadn't
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: logged as much. And when I hunt there, Mark, I'm
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: hunting terrain features. UM food. Food is usually pretty broadly
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: dispersed because you've got these massive contiguous stands of hardwoods
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: and stuff. The acorn is made, then there's acorns everywhere.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Or if let's say the acron is just made on
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: tops of the ridges for whatever reason, well there's acrons
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: on every ridge top. And so what I would be
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: looking for is for buck sign, you know, certain ridge tops, saddles, fingers,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: heads of hollows that had buck sign in in wherever
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: that buck sign would be. You know, typically they're making
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: that sign there because they're traveling there, because there are
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: does there. And so we're hunting a lot more travel
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: corridor type areas in the mountains. Um, and our mountains
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: down there close to three thousand feet and can be
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: really rugged and steep, and wind is really difficult. Uh
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: in the mountains, the wind just swirls. I mean, it's
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: just so hard to get a predictable wind. That's what
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: makes it so difficult. Um. So that's kind of my
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: national forest hunting. And then the best deer that I've
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: killed in Arkansas, I've come off private land, um and
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: up here close to where I live now. So I'm
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: talking about three different spots here where I live in
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: northwest Arkansas now, and half of the last twenty years
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I've hunted pretty extensively on private land. And here we've
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: got cattle pastures and hardwood timber, and these cattle pastures,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: you know, sculpt the land in such a way that
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: travel corridors are much easier to identify, just because it's
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: not all woods, you know. And uh so I'm hunting
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: pinch points you know, just like funnels in between cattle pastures.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I've done some food plot stuff. Uh. We can,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: we can bait deer in Arkansas and uh and I'm
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: not above uh baiting some deer at different times and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: uh and even using that as a way to take
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: inventory on a property and then hunting the deer somewhere else. Um. So,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: but we have some good deer in Arkansas, Um, we
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: really do. Uh. Every year they're taking boone and crocket
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: animals out of Arkansas. Not it's not common. Um yeah,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: what what kind of what kind of goals do you
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: have when it comes to deer hunting there? Because I know,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: I know I've seen you some hunting up much further
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: north in Canada with a pretty discerning eye as to
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: what you're gonna shoot. What do you what's your mindset
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: down at home? Are you just filling the freezer with
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the first thing you see or do you hold out
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: for for something else? What's what's that for you? So
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: in about two thousand and five, now I was two
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: thousand four, h started I had a goal to just
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: kill a three and a half year old buck or
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: older in the Ozarks with my bow every year that
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: was my goal. I didn't care if it what it
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: looked like, just if I judged it to be three
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: and a half. And you know, the buzzword these days
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: is four and a half, as we all know, all
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: good deer hunters know now. Um, but back then, of
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: course a half and and uh. I maintained that goal
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: for ten years, and did that probably seven or eight
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: of the ten years. And uh, and now I might
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: even be I don't know if I'm more picky or
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: less picky, because I'm a cherry pick where I want
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: stuff to happen down in the National forest where I've
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: targeted the last five years. I am just after a
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: mature animal and and sometimes those deer don't have big racks.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: And uh, I'm trying to kill a deer down the
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: national forest up here at home, I mean, I'm probably
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: looking for a pope and young class type deer that
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: that that would get me pretty excited. I mean I would.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I would spend my season and hunt him like he
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: was a Boon and Crockett if he had a dred
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: of antler. Every every couple of years, I get a
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: really nice deer on camera. Um, a couple of years
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I've had, you know, in twenty years. One time, well
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: once I killed I killed a hundred and sixty nine
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: inch deer here close to my house in two thousand seven. Um,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: and uh, one time I was hunt thing a deer
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: that my neighbor ended up killing. That ended up scoring
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: in the one eighties. But in twenty years, those are
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: the two big ones. Most years I'm hunting hundred deer. Yeah,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: it sounds like it sounds like here in Michigan, that's
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: your typical deer that that might reach maturity is going
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: to be somewhere in that ballpark. So how do you
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: go about, like what's the switch you make when shifting
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: from shooting anything to then trying to kill that three
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: and a half year old or now the truly mature deer,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: whatever that is for you down in the national forest. Um,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: what are the things that you started doing differently when
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: you made that that you graduated to whatever that to
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: that new challenge for you? What what has to be
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: done different That's a good question. Um, you know, I
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: guess you just have to be okay with not being successful.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: I mean I haven't killed a buck in Arkansas and
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: at two years maybe even three, and that to me
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: would have been totally unacceptable, you know, ten fifteen years ago.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Um and and and I don't ever want to lose
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that drive to to be successful, and even defining success
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: is taking an animal. I mean, I I think that's
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: okay to do that. It's not all of what success is.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: But but I think the older I have gotten, the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: easier it has become too, you know, short term sacrifice
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: for long term gain. So rather than shoot that lesser, dear,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I'm okay with I'm okay with waiting, and I'm okay
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: with committing my season to a really difficult place on purpose,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: by choice, for the purpose of personal limitation, hoping that
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: when I do kill an animal, there's gonna be really awesome.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Mark this is I almost had this revelation. I think
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: it was two years ago, and it it like startled
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: me and made me laugh too at the same time.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: But so I live in northwest Arkansas. I drive two
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: hours south to probably some of the most difficult white
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: tail hunting there is. I mean there's probably I know
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: there are places that are as hard and probably harder,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: but not many. I mean, it's just not great hunting.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: And I could drive two hours north and be in
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Southeast Kansas. What are you doing? Could be in southeast
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Kansas in an hour and a half from my house,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: maybe our forty five and uh we drove up to
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Kansas on a family trip and I was just I
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: just realized how short of a drive it was to
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: get into really some of the premier white tail honey
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: in the country. And I turned to my wife and
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I said, I drive two hours the wrong direction deer hunt,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: and but I love it, man, I do. I would
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: and see. And this is where media doesn't translate. Like
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: one day and I have not killed that big national
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: forest buck. That's really become a goal that's hit me
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: pretty hard. In the last three or four years. I've
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: dedicated most of my white tail hunting kind of since
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: i've been an adult um to where I lived up here,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: which my access points up here are private land, and
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I've taken a lot of nice deer on private land
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: up here, So now I'm kind of focusing on public
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: like that's that's just where I want to kill it.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: And one of these days you'll see some video of
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: me mark killing a hue buck, and I will you
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: will have thought that I killed the boon and Crockett
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: by the way I was acting, and it's because of
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: where I killed it and just a personal connection I
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: have to that place. And that's valuable. Man, That's valuable.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of what some of the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: hunting media sometimes takes away from us or certainly has,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: is that you see, you know, we all know the narrative.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: You know, you see these guys killing big deer on
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: TV and in the heck, I go to Canada and
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: shoot big deer and it's awesome. I love it. But
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: you see that and that devalues you know, what you
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: have access to. So I think everybody's got to take
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: inventory of really what they have access to and challenge
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: themselves on that however they see fit that makes them
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a better hunter and just satisfies them, you know. Yeah,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: relate to what you're saying. There. Something I'm kind of
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: curious though about just better understanding how you think about
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: this stuff. Is this whole idea of of quote unquote
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: trophy hunting. Because this is something that I think about
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: a lot for myself too, because I self impose different
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: goals on my hunting and I am quite particular about
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: what dare I'm gonna choose to shoot or not, and
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: you'll sometimes get these accusations, you know, your trophy hunter
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: or why you trophy hunter, or something like that. And
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I don't like that word, I think because it has
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: all these very negative connotations. Now. I feel like especially
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: non hunters, when they see that, they assume something much
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: different than what is experienced by someone like me who
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: might be a selective deer hunter or whatever. It might
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: be a goal oriented deer hunter or whatever. Um, I'm
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: just kind of curious how you how you put words
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: to that that choice you've made well and Mark, you
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: may have heard this before, but but maybe maybe others
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have. But I'm not afraid of that word trophy
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: hunting because if we get down really to the the
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: original definition, you know, trophy hunting is what saved North
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: American wildlife. I mean this idea of in the scriminate
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: killing of the eighteen hundreds in this market hunting culture
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: where if it's brown, it's down females, juveniles, whatever was killed.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: You know, the Boone and Crockett Club was formed in
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: seven and they they basically quantified what a mature male
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: species of all the animals that we hunt were and
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: they assigned value to the attributes of antlers and skull
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: size that were that of a mature male species of
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: that animal. And so they were the first guys that said, hey,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: it's officially cool to kill the big ones and let
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: the juveniles and females go. I mean, they were the
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: ones that did that, and we now reap that inside
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: of our culture. And obviously that has been taken out
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: of context and has been the pendulum has been swung
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: really far in certain scenarios and hunting. And it's real
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: easy to smear somebody that goes someplace and takes big animals. Um.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: So I guess what I say when if somebody were
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: to say, Clay, you're a trophy hunter, I would say,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: if I was being facetious and trying to pick out him,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I would say, you bet you I am. And that's
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: why and that's what saved North American wildlife. And again
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: my spiel, Um, But I think there's honor and being selective,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: and you know, I mean, what are you gonna do?
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Are you're gonna be selective for the small ones? You
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? Uh? And I and Mark, I
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: know I'm talking. I'm preaching to the choir talking to you.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: But I would point people back to to be selective
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: is self imposed limitation, which is good for everything involved.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: It's good for all the animals that we pass. It's
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: also good for a human too to have self restraint,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: purposeful self restraint. So I you know, I just have
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: no problem being selective and trying to target the old ones,
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and and and obviously you give back even
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: to the biology that an older, mature male has already
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: contributed to the gene pool. His extraction from the population
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: results in really very little loss from the overall population.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: You know, you take out a female, you've taken out
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of possible production for generations to come. And
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and I know we're not talking
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: about shooting bucks or does and and the most deer
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: numbers were trying to reduce herd numbers. That's irrelevant, But
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: with bears that's really relevant. People are like, well, why
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: are you shooting the old one? And uh and and
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: it's it really makes sense if you can talk someone
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: through it, you know, without kind of like a jerk. Yeah,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I heard you see something in one of your videos
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: where you said something on the lines of someone will
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: call it trophy hunting. I'm gonna call it being a
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: conservation informed hunter, and I like to that. I think
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: that that speaks to that context that is important to
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: understand when it comes to these decisions. And many times
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: people don't see it, but there's there is thought, and
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: there is regulation, and there is conservation and science behind
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of this that that leads to a greater
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: good in the long run, to let alone the individual
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: um accomplishment or growth that you can take from that
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: experience too. So I hear you on all fronts speaking
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: of trophy hunting though or big deer. I know you
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: also head up to Canada. You do this. I don't
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: know how long you've been doing it, but it seems
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: like for some number of years now you've been heading
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: up to Canada. I know Manitoba for sure, maybe Saskatchewan.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: UM tell me about that a little bit, because I've
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: I've always a lot of people dream of of doing
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: the Canadian deer hunting thing, but you've you've lived it.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Is that everything that we imagine it might be, you know. Okay,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: So I've been I've hunted Manitoba for white tails the
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: last three years. So that's been my that's been my
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: experience with it there. It's kind of complex question. Manitoba
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: about ten years ago experienced a pretty dramatic uh loss
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: and deer numbers just because of multiple really tough winters.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: So their population is in recovery right now and it's
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: really just now getting back up to really good numbers. Uh.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Manitoba is has not been the target place for big
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: white tails, typically Saskatchewan and albert are That's what you
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: hear about, um. And that is primarily because you can
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: hunt deer over bait in Alberta and Saskatchewan and you
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: cannot in Manitoba, which I actually like. So Manitoba has
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: never been totally on the radar of the big game hunts,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: the big game, you know, the big white tell hunters. Um.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: But Mark Man, we're gonna release all our secrets and
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: all these camps are just gonna fill. Because of that,
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Manitoba hunts are are are pretty dern cheap. Uh you
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: know where the Saskatchewan and Alberta hunts are in demand
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: more because higher success rates because you can hunt over
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: bait and uh, so the hunts are more expensive. UM.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: I have taken three incredible deer the last three years
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: and in Canada. One with a bow u two with
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: a muzzloader, and oh man, it's one of the favorite,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: my favorite things that I do. And it's partly because
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: of the guy we go with. So Tom Ainsworth is
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: a he was a longtime bear hunting magazine advertiser, so
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: he was a bear outfitter. He retired and sold his
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: bear business but still had these white tail tags and
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: he has access to thousands of acres in southern Manitoba
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: of private land just agg country. Um. I've never hunted Iowa,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: but I mean for all general purposes. I mean it
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: kind of be like hat in Iowa. I mean, you know,
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: big crop country. Um not they don't have the funnels
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: quite like it's either it's it's kind of this big
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: bush country as they call it, which would be big
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: blocks of contiguous timber and then these big blocks of
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: agg you know. And uh, but to go up there
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: and think you're gonna kill a boondoo crocket animal is
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: probably pretty far fetched at least where we're hunting. That
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: being said, last year I killed a deer that was
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: just under one sixty Uh. I say it was one
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: sixty just for just because it's easier. I mean it's
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: scored one fifty nine and seven eights something like that. Uh,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: always round up in favor of that. Yeah, so you know,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: hundred sixty inch deer. Um. I've taken several people up
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: there with me, just friends, and they always are disappointed
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: and I want to just kick him in the shin
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: because they're like, Okay, so we're gonna be hunting like
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: hight hundred seventy inch deer and I'm just like, no,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: we're not that. They're they're just probably not there. You
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: could kill one that big, but probably won't. Um. And
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: the truth is, those guys that are a little bit
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: disappointed that we're not hunting hundred and seventy inch deer
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: go up to Manitoba and flip out when they see
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: a hundred and forty inch deer with that's just massive
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: and chocolate horned and a beast, you know, two d
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: fifty pound animal. Um. Most guys are way happier with
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: a quote unquote lesser scoring deer than they realize, especially
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: when it has mass, you know. Um. But now I
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: killed a hundred sixty inch deer and then a hundred
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: and fifty two inch deer with my bow and then
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: and I killed a deer that I don't even want
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: to say the score. But if you saw this deer
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: standing beside either one of the deer that I killed,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't have known which one to shoot. But the
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: deer only scored in the one thirties, a big Harley
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Old eight point um. Like really, if if the one sixty,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: one fifty and the one thirty were standing in the field,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: you would have to really look at them to know
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: which one to shoot. Uh, they were that big, Yeah,
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: seen them on They all are jumbo. I mean they're
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: dandy bucks, all three of them. So I certainly can
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. But people that don't just think
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: about score, you know, wouldn't really understand that. But but
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: now it's it's a lot. It's a lot of We
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: see a lot of deer up there. I mean when
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: I first started hunting Canada, I thought I would sit
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: all day and see two or three deer. Um that's
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: not been my experience. We're seeing a lot of deer
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: every time we go. You know, tend to deer a sit. Uh,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: we're not always sitting all day. Um, Tom guy we
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: hunt with, he likes to just hunt three or four
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: hours in the morning, three or four hours in the evening,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: and I end up usually sitting all day every time
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: I've been up there for whatever reason. And you know,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: you can do pretty good when you do that as well. Um,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: but you know, it's kind of classic stuff sitting in
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: a box stand if you're rifle hunting. Uh, I killed
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: the bow buck out of a tree stand. Obscure places
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: to hunt. Man, if you're if you're a pretty proficient
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: deer hunter, you know down in this part of the world,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: and you go up there, it'll blow your mind where
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: you can kill deer up there, I mean when you know,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: and it's an outfitted hunt. But Tom is really good
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: about letting you just kind of do what you want
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: and kind of collaborating with you. But the second the
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: first year I went up there, Mark Tom had seen
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: a big buck in the field. He was just like Clay,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: this morning, I saw a big one right out there.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: He said, I think we ought to go ahead and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: hang to stand out there. And I was like, okay,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: and you know, I was thinking this isn't gonna work.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: And uh. We went to the back corner of this field.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: You could see a half a mile in front of me,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't a deer sign to speak of. And
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: we just threw up a ladder stand, drove the truck
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: up to the corner of this field, drew up a
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: ladder stand, I climbed up in the tree, and he
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: drives off. And I'm just sitting there thinking, there is
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: no way a white tailed deer is about to walk
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: past me. Number one and not see me sitting in
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: this tree twelve feet off the ground in a popular
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: with no leaves. And number two, that a mature buck
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: is gonna walk by within forty yards of this tree.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: And man, in an hour and a half, I've killed
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: that hundred fifty deer. He never even looked at me.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, if that deer in Arkansas would have spotted
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: me in a flash. I mean, those deer are just
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: they're just different. I don't understand it fully, but they
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: are not nearly is aware. Is our deer nice to
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: go to a place where they're not quite as pressured
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: and constant on edge, that's for sure. Yeah, I know
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: it's like that where you hunt mark super edgy, pressured
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: dear big time. Yeah, it's it's nice to enjoy the
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: other side of things every once in a while. Um,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: you mentioned that this this place that you went. Uh.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: Tom Ainsworth used to be an advertiser on the bear
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: hunting side of things, which which we have to talk about. Two.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Given everything you're doing with bear hunting, and this is
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: typically a deer hunting podcast, but I know that there's
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of folks with aspirations of branching out and
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: trying new things, and and I too, and bear hunting
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: has been one of those deals that has been on
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: my radar for a long time. UM. I've only bear
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: hunted once and it was just for a couple of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: days out in Montana. UM have wanted to spend more
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: time doing it, had plans to possibly do it this year,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: but that's now in the can because of everything going
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: on with a travel lockdowns. But bear uning has been
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: one of those deals that has kind of lingered in
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: the back of my mind. Is something that I say
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I want to do, and I want to do the activity,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: but I have questions around if I want to pull
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: the trigger once I finally get to that point. Because
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: I find bears, I mean I find every animal fascinating, beautiful.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: I love dear these animals. That I hunt and kill
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: all the time, but for some reason, there seems something
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: a little different. I don't know how to quite put
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: a finger on it. But with a bear, um, a
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: black bear, or grizzly, I think I'd probably feel even
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: more so with grizzly. Um, something something speakable, I don't know.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: That just would give me pause about doing that. At
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: the same time, I still want to go out and
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: try so. I'm I don't know where I stand there
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: on this. I don't know why how I would react
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: to the moment, but I'm just kind of curious if
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: any of that resonates with you. Have you ever struggled
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: with something like that? Do you do you ever find
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: yourself thinking do I really want to in that moment?
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Because you're obviously, uh, you care about these animals a
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: whole lot, You're fascinated by these animals. Does any of
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: this make sense? Or do I sound like a wacko? Well,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: if I hadn't heard it before, Mark, I would think
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: you were a wacko. But because I've heard it before,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: I don't. Um laugh man, you're supposed to. I'm laughing, okay, Um,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Now you know I never I never had that feeling
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: I just haven't. And I found that some percentage of
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: people describe bear hunting just like you did, Mark, And
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong of that. I mean,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: not everybody has to want to kill a deer or
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: kill a bear, excuse me to you know, if they're
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: a hunter. I get it, you know, I get it,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: But but I don't get it in the sense of
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: I've never had any trouble with the idea or the
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: action of killing a bear. I mean every time I've
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: ever seen a bear, from the first one I ever saw,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, there was this deep respect, but there was
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: also this predatory thing inside of me, just like I
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: would like to kill that bear and eat it. Um
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: that And I think that's just that spectrum inside of
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: all of us that everybody's just built a little bit different.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: But but it's also what we've been we've grown up around.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I think if you were around some bear
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: hunting and some bear hunters like it would probably quick
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: pretty quickly begin to make sense. And then when you
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: finally had some bear, you know, you you harvested a bear,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: you butchered it, you you had some of that meat,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: really saw how good it was. Maybe maybe understanding some
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: of the history of bear hunting in North America puts
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: into context as well. Um, all of a sudden, I
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: think the things would start to line up, and it
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: would become in your mind just like killing a deer,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: just like killing a squirrel, just like killing a turkey.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: And really it's no different. I mean, and and here's
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: the thing. I guess that it's not the danger. It's
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: just the challenge of bear hunting that we have to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: work with. From a kind of a philosophical standpoint, is that,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, bears are easier to do with what
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: you're talking about than something else. I mean, if you
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: were taking you squirrel hunting mark and you never squirrel hunted, uh,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: you know, you wouldn't be like I mean, most likely
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't have any trouble squirrel. But for whatever reason,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: people do have a little bit of trepidation with killing
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: a bear. It might be genetics and part of us
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: that you know, tip, I mean, we were designed to hunt,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: you know, the bigger populations of animal. We're not designed.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: But I mean human cultures have lived off ungulates more
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: than they lived off carnivores and omnivores. I mean, so
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: even like from a evolutionary standpoint, it's almost like, you know,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: like we lean towards that being a game animal. But
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: inside the current context of black bear populations thriving in
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: North America, um, inside of us now knowing how to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: handle bear meat so that it's safe to eat. Uh.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: You know, there's like all these cards that fall into place,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, yeah, this is this is this
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: is the perfect animal to hunt and to kill and
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: uh and Mark I I say this a lot too
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: from a if we're talking philosophy, really, there's not another
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: big game animal that we utilize from a wildlife commodity
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: standpoint more than a bear. I mean, and here's my
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: argument with that. We use the meat, we can render
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: down the fat, and granted not everybody does that, but
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: more and more people are rendering bear fat and finding
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: all kinds of great uses for it. So we're using
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: the fat. And then probably of the bears that are
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: killed are their hides are tanned. And so you you
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: back that back into white tail deer. And nothing against
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: white tail deer, but probably four two percent five percent
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: of white tailed deer hides are tanned. Nobody's rendering fat
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: off a deer. You're pretty much taking horns and meat,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: you know, so from a wildlife usage standpoint, we use
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: more of a bear than just about anything else on
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: a big broad scope. You know. Yeah, it's a it's
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: a great point. Um. But also then bring to mind
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: one of the perplexing things I've found about the regulation
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: of bear hunting in America, and that revolves around salvage requirements,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: and that most and I'm no expert on this, so
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: I'm just taking this from things I've heard in conversation.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: So I know you'll you'll understand it's better than I do,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: so correct me in all this. But as I understand it,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: some states do not require you salvage meat from a
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: black bear kill, and in Alaska at least most places,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: I think this is right. I've heard the same thing
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: applies that if you kill grizzly you don't need to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: take the meat, and many people do not. Um, tell
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: me if I'm right on that first off? And then secondly, uh,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: why is that the case? How is that the case?
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: How is that defensible? Yeah, well, you're right. I believe
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: there's just a handful of states in the lower forty
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: eight where you don't wear want and waste laws do
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: not apply to black bears and it on sleep. That's
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: got to change. I mean, I am a massive proponent
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: and I would imagine that in the next ten years
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: we will see all that change. We we it needs
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: to be regulated just like any other game animals. So
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: that is kind of an antiquated thing of the depredation
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: vermin mentality past of you know, I mean, not that
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: long ago, there were bounties on bears in a lot
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: of states and mountain lions and stuff, you know, so
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: they just weren't viewed as a as a game animal.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: So Mark, you're exactly, You're a hundred percent right, um,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: And and ultimately that's just got to change. And you know,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: from a again kind of going back this idea of
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: a persecution mentality kind of shaping our worldview in the
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: bear world, is that um the well, shucks, I lost
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: my train of thought. Mark, I got distracted looking out
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: the window here. That's okay, you're you're, you're, You're making
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: a good point though about the fact that that does
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: need to change, because because obviously, and I want to talk,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: I want to hear a little bit more from you
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: on this note. But there is this old myth that
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: bear meats no good and people are seemingly finding more
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: and more often that's not the case in most cases.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Um So I'm glad to hear that. You think that
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: will change it. It seems that's hard to defend our
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: hunting of an animal if we're not taking its meat
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: in that kind of situation. So, uh so, yeah, that
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: makes less sense. No what what I regained my tray
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: and fire. Well, I was gonna say, Mark, is that
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: persecute mentality of bear hunters. There was a fairly recent
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: study done that said, like in the high seventieth percentile
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: of Americans were okay with modern hunting if it if
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: if we use the meat for food. So that's a
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: big challenge in the narrative of bear hunting, which we're
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: trying to change, is hey, we're eating these animals, and
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: so that's where the laws have to catch up with
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: what we're doing in modern times. And and you know,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: in the last i mean really the last five eight years,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: ten years, you know, eating bear meat has become a
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: lot more popularized. People have started to experiment with it more,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: and uh the narratives totally changing around bear meat, and
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: it's really good, you know, Yeah, so talk talk to
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: me about the next step of that, because definitely it
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: seems like there's been a lot more momentum around eating
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: black bears, but you hear much much less about grizzly
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: And now with whole debate raging around the endangered species
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: listing and delisting of grizzly is this is something now
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: that's going to become you know, it's going to continue
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: being an issue. Is that debate continues as folks say, well,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: if we're opening up a grizzly bear season but you're not,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: you know, you're just doing it for a hide in
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: a skull and all that. Um, talk to me, what's
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: your experience of that. I know, you've killed the grizzly,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: you've killed a brown bear. Um, have you eaten brown
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: and grizzly bear? What's a taste like is that? What
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: do you think? Honestly, the brown bear is a different
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: story to me because they are highly carnivorous and so
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like it goes back to
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: even like predator hunting, Well, it goes back to why
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: we're hunting them from a conservation standpoint. Um, you know,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: like where I killed the brown bear in Alaska that
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: was a two bear area. Uh I could have killed
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: two brown bears as a non resident because it was
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: a moose. It was a targeted area where they were
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: trying to get moose to come back. So many brown
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: bears they were hammering the moose calves and there's tons
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: of research on that, tons of research. They they put
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: video cameras on brown bears, have captured individual brown bears
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: killing up to seventeen moose calves in a single season. Um. Like,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: So it goes back to you know, we in the
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: in the one of the tenants of the North American
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: model is non frivolous use of wildlife. Well, there's some
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: wildlife that we take and the primary purpose is not meat.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: And I think that's okay. Like if I go out
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: and shoot coyotes off my property, um, you know, I'm
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: not shooting that animal for meat and and and I'm
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: just kind of okay with that. You know, when we
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: coon hunt, now, we do eat coons some, but we
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: are primarily not harvesting that coon for meat. Where he's
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: a fur bearing animal, you know, we're harvesting him for
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: his fur and his absence from the landscape. Benefits all
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: these other species. So grizzly are a little bit different,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: and it's man, it's a hot button, and I don't
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: have my narrative really polished. Again, back to the idea,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: why are we hunting brown bears? They will they will
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: shoot brown bears out of helicopters if hunters don't go
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: in and kill brown bears. So if brown bear meat
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: in some cases is almost inedible because that animals been
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: eating fish and different things, then does that mean that
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't hunt them and that we should let somebody
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: shoot it out of a helicopter because we're not eating
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: the meat. You see where I'm going and so so there,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: the brown bear is a different story. Now, if they
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: opened up a season in the lower forty eight for
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: grizz I'd be the first one they're starting to fire,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: roasting a grizzly bear ham over the fire and eating it.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: I mean like there are places where, yes, that needs
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: to be done. Um, so yeah, it seems like those
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: sounds like those interior interior grizzlies taste better than those
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: coastal bears eating the rotten fish and everything. So at
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: least if it if it does get opened again, hopefully
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: those will be some some tastier critters then what you
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: might get elsewhere. Yeah, but it's a doozy. It's definitely
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: something that I've read a lot about and wondered about,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: and and I don't know exactly how how we're gonna
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: figure that out in the future, but I do think
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: that to your point here in the lower forty eight especially,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: that's such a sticking point that I think will be
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: will be ill served if we don't require salvage, because
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard to stand on. It's gonna be
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: hard to keep that stool standing up right when we
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: talk about the conservation of the species, if we're just
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: letting that sit in the landscape. So so so I
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: want to I don't think I did a good enough
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: job of setting up the y to us talking about bears,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: or maybe us rephrase it allowing you to set up
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: the y. I want to hear your pitch. Why should
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: a deer hunter start to bear hunt? Um? Why should
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: I go bear hunt? I was gonna go. I was
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: hoping to go this may it's not happen anymore. But
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: if I wasn't, if I was reserved about ever trying it,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: convinced me the black bear hunting is something worth trying. Okay, well,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: to me, the the spring season is very alluring should
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: be for a white tail hunter, and that you can
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: go hunt a big game animal in the spring. And
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: there's nothing else that you can hunt in terms of
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: big game that you can turkey hunt. But this idea
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: that we could have this gather some protein, have a
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: wild adventure in a wild place at a time where
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: you are not stealing your days away in the fall. Uh.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: And you know, I'm a white tail hunter. I know
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: how precious those days in late October and early November are.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: And so you can hunt a you can hunt a
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: bear in the spring. Number two, the world is looking
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: for bear hunters. I mean, whatever is happening ecologically, it's
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: been highly beneficial to black bear. And it's there's more
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: opportunity then there's been in a long time. I mean,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: new states are adopting bear seasons. Oklahoma, Kentucky, now Florida
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: had a bear see a new bear season, but it's
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: been knocked back for now. Uh. New Jersey like bear
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: opportunity is expanding. Um. Additionally, you know this idea that
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: that the meat is good A lot of people I
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: talked to that our first time bear hunters say, I'm
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: literally to kill a bear because I don't know if
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: I like the meat. And you know, there's a solution
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: to that problem is is that you're just gonna have
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: to try some good bear meat and see if you
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: like it. And I get it that if you don't
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: want if you don't like it, then you you may
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: not want to hunt a bear, but you don't who's
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: to say that you can't give the meat away? Or
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: people want bear meat, people like it, and the truth
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: is that if it's handled correctly, you most likely will
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: like it. If you like dear ag um and to me,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: mark bears are iconic of North American wilderness. Bears live
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: in wild places and kind of be in a white
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: tail hunter. A lot of times we're hunting pretty pretty
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: uh Man influenced places and landscapes, and and that's okay.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: I mean we're hunting farm country and we're hunting close
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: to town. You know, best of tier I've ever killed
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: have been close to my house. Well, when you're hunting bears,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: you you typically are getting back into some of North
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: America's real wilderness and real wild places, and that is
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: a lurian. That's what makes it fun. That's what makes
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: the challenge because your challenge you're pitted against uh or
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: you're not pitted against it, but I mean, you know,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: you're you're in a wild place, and that's different than deer.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: The whole idea of hunting a animal that could hurt
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: you is adds a new twang to hunting. Um. Guys
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: that have done it a long time aren't as enamored
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: by that. It's kind of it kind of just becomes normal.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: But you know, I find new bear hunters oftentimes if
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: they're on the ground and close to a bear, I mean,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: they're just you know, it's it's it's really an exhilarating experience. Um.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: And then bears are just incredible animals. I mean, the
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: biology of bears is just incredible. Um. They're resilient animal there,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: they're they're generalists, so they can live in so many
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: different landscapes. There's four different colored way actually up to
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: six different color phases of black bear. Um there. There
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: there's just all these unique little nuances inside of hunting,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: the different techniques. You know, if you're in if you're
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: in the Southern Appalachians, you know, there's one way to
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: hunt a bear out there, and that's would be intrigued
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: by hounds. Uh. If you're out where, there's one way
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: to kill abart out there, that's to go on a
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: classic spot and stalk glassing hunt. And that's awesome. Um,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: if you're hearing the ozarks. Our bear hunting culture is
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: relatively new, to be honest with you, because our bears
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: just in the last forty years have come back and
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: so you know, we can hunt bears over bait, but
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: we're kind of grinding out this idea of hunting bears
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: in national forest without bait on the ground with boats.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: We call it the sheep hunt of the South because
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: it's a low percentage hunt. It's a difficult hunt. Uh.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: You don't see a lot of game, super challenge. Um,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: so you know you can hunt them that way. So
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: there's diversity, there's good meat, there's challenge, and then there's
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: just a the historical precedice of the North American hunter man.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: A lot of the patriarchs of our of our hunting culture,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: we're bear hunters. They identified themselves as bear hunters. Daniel Boone,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, Davy Crockett, I, mean, these guys, they didn't
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: they I mean they were deer hunters for sure, but
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: that's not what they went home and told their wives
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: and kids about. They went home and told them that, hey,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: we're bear hunters. And I think that's what we're seeing
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: revived inside of the times right now, is that there's
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: kind of this revival of the bear hunter, you know,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: kind of conservation minded, intelligent, uh you know, bear hunter.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: That's that's really filling a space in that bears need.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: You know, bear habitat. You know, there's only so much
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: really good bare habitat, and so beare numbers have to
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: manage to fit that habitat. Bears increased by ten percent
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: per year. There they get in trouble. You know, you
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: can have ten deer out in your front yard and
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: not be that big of a deal. You have one
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: bear on your porch eating your bird seed, You've got
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: a big deal on your hands. Um. So, you know,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: there is a more of a need to really manage
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: these populations so that they stay in wild places. And
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: that's a real threat, a real issue. You know, it
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: sounds like a spin or a narrative just so that
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: we can go out and hunt bears. But but it's
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: actually not. I mean, it's just the truth. Bear numbers
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: have to be managed or they will end up causing
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: trouble and getting getting killed. There's places out in California where,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: well there's placed all over the country, but some real specific,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: unique places in California where these bears aren't hunted and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: they're just reaking havoc. Um. So, anyway, that's my spield mark.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: So you convinced me. You convinced me, Clay, And uh,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: now what I need you to tell me? I'm speaking
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: as a listener of this podcast. You've convinced me. Now
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: I want to know I've got I've got a decent budget.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't have a lot of money, but
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: I've got an average amount of money to go on
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: an out of state bear hunt. I want this is
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: gonna be my first bear hunt. I want the quintessential
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: bear hunting experience. Um layout for me, what you recommend
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: as that best first bear hunting experience that you think
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: is gonna hook someone you know for life. Yeah, Well,
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: because of the diversity of ways we hunt bears, there's
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: really not a quintessential experience. Because there are two things
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: that I would that I would say is that you
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: could go on and do it yourself western spot in
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: stock hunt in Idaho or Montana. That would be a
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: classic spot and stock western hunt. Um, odds would be
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: fairly low that you'd be successful. Um. I'm not saying
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: you couldn't go out there and do it. But the
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: first two years I hunted Montana, I did not kill
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: a bear, and I was trying to do it with
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: a rifle, you know, and felt like I was going
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: in pretty informed and it's challenging to kill one. But
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: it's a fantastic hunt. Uh, buying over the counter tag
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: go out there, do a little bit of research on
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: on x ON, go hunt, find some good regions, just
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: talk to people. People will tell you where bears are.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: They really will. They may not tell you where their
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: white tails are, but they'll tell you where bears are.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: And UH do that. So that that's category one. Category
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: two is to go on a on an outfitted baited
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: hunt in Canada and uh, you know, all I gotta
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: say is don't knock it till you tried it. Man.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: Some of the best times I've ever had hunting have
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: been in Canadian bear camps. Um. Some of these hunts
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: are really affordable. I mean there's places in Quebec where
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: you can go on a six day hunt and stay
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: on some beautiful cottage on the lake and fish for
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: under a thousand dollars. It's ridiculous. Uh. Now, the bear
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: hunting is probably not gonna be as as good as
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: some of the Western provinces Manitoba, uh, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: Those are kind of the el primo black bear destinations
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: of Canada. And you're gonna be paying in those in
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: the more like three thousand to four thousand dollar range
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: for a hunt more in British Columbia. But those are
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: world class bear destinations um man. And you know abated
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: bear hunt. I have yet to find a hunt where
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: you get to interact with an animal in a more
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: and I use the word intimate and I because I
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: can't find another way to describe it. But you know
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: what other hunt are you gonna go on where you're
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: gonna see tons of animals every day at close range? Um?
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: You know, uh, not very I mean super close can
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: be if you wanted to be. But you know, abated
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: black bear hunt in Canada is pretty cool. Yeah, It's
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: one of those things that I've seen and like. The
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: bear hunt that seems to appeal to me the most
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: is the first that you describe going to Idaho, Montana,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: way up in the mountains, seeking them out, glassing them up,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: sneaking in on foot. That really appeals to me. Um.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: But I do see while I'm not naturally predisposed to
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: be interested in baiting, I do see your point and
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: that it would be fun just simply to see the
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: animals so often so up close. Um. Just that experience itself,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's got a certain of lure and and
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: I've seen I think I've seen you do it, and
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: many other people doing that on the ground even um,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: and bear is coming very very close. Um, that's got
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: to be an unbelievable experience. Have a bear touching your
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: arrow almost Yeah, yeah, well, the there there is something
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: really unique about about that kind of hunt. You know,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: in one week of Canadian bear hunting, you will interact
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: with bears and see more bear activity than you will
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: in a lifetime of hunting out West, Spot and stock
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: and I on a good bear hunt, that's the truth.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, last I was in Saskatchewan, I did not
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: kill a bear, and uh it was because I was
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: breaking on. I was being really selective, and we were
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: at this wilderness bait that literally you would run bears
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: off when you got there, and you would run bears
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: off when you left. And we hunted about eight hours
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: a day, and we figured in in in in six
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: full days of hunting, the longest period of time that
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: we were not looking at a bear was about a
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: two hour stretch. So I mean you go looking at
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: I never did the math, but I mean, you know, uh,
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: forty eight hours of bear hunting and uh, every day
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: we'd have about a two hour stretch where there was
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: not a bear within ten yards of us. I mean
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: we saw bear fights, bear breeding, three legs, bears, bears
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: with Maine, bears climbing trees, bears you know coming up
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: to your blind. I mean we saw more bear stuff
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: than you would in a lifetime of any other kind
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: of Huney. That's the appeal of it, Mark, Yeah, I
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: can see that being pretty interesting. Um yeah, I'm I
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: am bummed that I can't do it this year. I
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: really was hoping this would be the year to make
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: it happen. Unfortunately I can't get a tag here in Michigan.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: But next year, I think, uh, I think it's in
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: the cards. So what what I wanna end with is
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: just a little bit I'd love to hear from you
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: on why all hunters or why I think I think
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: you would say this. Tell me if you think otherwise.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: But I think you would make the argument that all
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: hunters have a steak in bear hunting because the attack
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: hacks on bear hunting, as I've heard to describe it,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: are often a gateway to the larger enterprise of hunting.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: I've heard you say that we need to guard the gate. Um.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that, man, Mark, You've really
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: done your research, man, this is I appreciate that. Um. Yeah.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: So when I came into the bear hunting world kind
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: of in a professional sense, just through Bear Hunting magazine, Uh,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: you know my per seven and really seven years ago
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: when I acquired this business was really kind of my
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: first step onto the national bear hunting stage, and so
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: my eyes just kind of popped wide open when I
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: saw what was happening in the bear world and how
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: much true persecution even in Michigan. Mark, Michigan Bear Hunters
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: Association is a very well run organization and there. I mean,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't be bear hunting in Michigan if it wasn't
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: four of these guys up there that are just truly fighters. Man,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: They're smart, they're they're working with legislation, legislators on a
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: monthly basis, year round. Uh, fighting for the rights of
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: bear hunters in Michigan. Um. But but just what you know,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: if you had told me that fifteen years ago, I
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: told you were a conspiracy theorist. Nobody's gonna mess with
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: our bear hunting. I mean, I live in rural Arkansas.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: We we are not really persecuted here, but boy, and
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: lots of lots of parts of the work of the
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: country they are. And so the kind of world view
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: that I developed, or kind of solid developed around me,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: is that, uh, well, let me back up. What I
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: then perceived was that most of the hunting community that
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: was not interested in bears. It was kind of almost
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: like the red headed step child of hunting was this
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: bear hunting because it was persecuted. People were afraid that
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: they to say that they killed the bear of our dogs.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: People were ashamed to say they killed the bear of
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: per bait because they thought it was controversial, or they
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: thought they would be persecuted for it in some way.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: And it was almost like people had this idea that Man,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: I just wish that would go away. I just wish
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: the controversial stuff would go away. But what I think
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: is the case is that in we have nothing left
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: to give the anti hunting community. Um, we we really
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: have nothing left to give them. The chief has been
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: blown away. Maybe a nineteen hundred we had stuff that
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: needed to be chopped off of the North American hunting block.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: But in science and all these things have honed us
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: down to a pretty tight, little working mechanism that has worked,
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: and it's caused wildlife to thrive, wild places to be preserved.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: So we got nothing left to give them. And um,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: and bears are the low hanging fruit for the anti
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: hunting agenda, and so we are essentially the gate for
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: the anti hunting community to come into the hunting world.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: And so even if you aren't a bear hunter, you
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: should care about the preservation of bear hunting because we're
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: the lowest rung on the ladder. And if that rung
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: is taken out, then all of a sudden, something else
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: is the lowest rung. So what And and we know
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: that the anti hunting communities, uh, Peter Humane Society the
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: United States. They are very vocal that their goal is
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: to end modern sport hunting. I mean they're not We're
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: not making that up like they are organizations. I did
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: a little research to other day for something I was right.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: And I want to say that the Human Society of
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: America on their twenty seventeen tax return, reported that they
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: had two hundred and fifty eight million dollars in the
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: bank at the end of the year. Uh. These are
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: massive organizations with massive amounts of money, and they are
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: using that. They're very strategically and incrementally trying to stamp
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: out modern hunting. It's financially beneficial for them. I mean,
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: we're kind of their cash cow. We're easy to portray
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: in a certain ways so as to elicit generosity from
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: the uninformed. Um. And so we have because we don't
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: have two fifty million dollars in our bank account to
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: build ad campaigns and do stuff people like you and me, Mark,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, we gotta work our tails off if we
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: want this thing to survive generation. You know. And uh,
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: and and again I would have said this was a
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theory fifteen years ago, I really would have I
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: mean I just would have been like mad, never gonna happen.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: Our hunting is safe. Um, I don't see that way anymore.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: And if bear hunting is gone, which I'm learly to
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: say that it's on a trajectory of that, but it
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: absolutely is, and I'll put a caveat it is on
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: that trajectory unless we do something, which we are doing
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: something so that is changing the trajectory, but left undone
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: twenty years from now, Basically the legs would be taken
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: out of bear hunting. You would probably just be able
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: to spot in stock bears. And that's it. If you
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: do that, you take the legs out of bear hunting,
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: no one will be bear hunters. Would be so difficult
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: to just would crush bear hunting. And then what's the
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: next thing on the agenda? And this may seem far fetched,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: but I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, what are they gonna what
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: what will be the thing that they come after? You know,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: calling elk, you know, kind of sounds unfair to me that,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: you know, these guys use those those bugles sound just
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: like a real elk, and they go out in the
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: woods in the breeding season, in the breeding season and
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: blow that call and those help just come running up
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: and they shoot them. An't doesn't sound fair to me. Uh,
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm playing devils that I mean, Like the
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: point is is that the preservation of bear hunting is
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: really relevant to all of us if we value hunting
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: in general. And uh, and that's what I'm trying to do,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: Mark is just trying to uh bring that awareness to people.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: And uh. And really, if we're any any group of
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: people that is a minority big time, which we are.
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: I think we're four point five of the population. As hunters,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: we're four point five percent of the American population. The
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: only way that will persist through time is to unify.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: And I think we can do it. I think there's
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of voices right now that are calling out
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: for unification. And uh, I mean even inside the white
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: tail community, you know, it's like, hey, don't dog that
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: guy for the way that he hunts. Um. You know,
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: he you don't know the shoes that he walks in,
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: you don't know how much time he has to hunt,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: you don't know the difficulty of where he lives. If
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: he kills a hundred and ten inch deer. It's awesome.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: You know, don't dog, don't dog? You know, Mark Kenyon
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: for being selective in Michigan. That's what he wants to do,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: you know. Unific Mark Kenyon alone. Uh, you know, just unification. Unification.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: We and so that means we have to look outside
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: of our own self interests, you know. I mean, because
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: there's some people that just don't care about bear hunting.
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: But if they're informed, if they understand the macro picture,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: they'll be like, you know what, maybe I should. And
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: I think it starts right, it's really practical. I mean,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: the solution to changing the hunting culture to a position
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: of unity is is that inside your hunting camps you
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: don't talk disparaging about somebody that hunts in a certain
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: way or a guy that killed a bear with dogs.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: You you venerate these things, even if you don't want
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: to do it, you know. Um. And I've seen a
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: lot of people kind of turned the corner and kind
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: of go okay, now I see why it's valuable that
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: there are seventeen states that have hound seasons. I mean,
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: this is America, man, and it's working. Bears are thriving.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: Let the guys run their dogs, um, you know, be
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: handing over bait. It's like, yeah, I see the benefits
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: of that, to be selective, um, to to set an
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: animal up for an ethical shot, to be able to
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: have a good opportunity if you don't have a lot
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: of time to hunt. It's like all these benefits and
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: and and I think us talking about it helps people
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: see that. And and uh, we'll bring unity, which unity
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: produces strength. And uh, that's what we've got to have
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: to calm about the challenges that we have. You know. So, yeah,
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: you make a you make a lot of strong, strong points.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: I I'm right there with you. I'm glad that there's
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: someone who's speaking to this stuff in particular on the
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: on the front with bears, because, as you've alluded to,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: sometimes that that side of our hunting community doesn't get
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: as much of that positive advocacy as it probably needs.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: And um, and you make an interesting point with the
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: guard the gate kind of metaphor for the situation. You're right,
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: I think what's next if we start losing things there?
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: So I hope that coming out of this conversation, there's
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of people that are that are
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more interested in exploring this whole
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: idea of bear hunting and if nothing else, at least
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: being an ally to the bear hunting community. If people
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: listening are intrigued, want to learn more about this, and
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: they want to check out all of the many different
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: types of content that you're putting out there into the world,
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: where can they go to find all that, Clay, You know,
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: most of what we're doing right now is just branded
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: as Bear Hunting Magazine, so they can check out our
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel, which we've got a lot of videos up,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: so that's Barning Magazine YouTube. We have a podcast, Burning
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: Magazine podcast um, and then our print magazine, Bear Hunting Magazine.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: We're the only print bear Huney magazine in the world
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: and uh produce a cool magazine. UM. So yeah, that's
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: where people can find us. We're on all the social
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: social networks, you know, we're Burning Magazine and then I'm
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: I'm on you know, Instagram, just as Clay newcome as well.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: But perfect it's good stuff. I've I've enjoyed everything you've
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: put out and uh i am I'm a consumer myself
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: and enjoy it. So I highly recommended to anyone else
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: out there and Clay, Uh, I appreciate taking the time
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: to do this is fun. Yeah, thank you, Mark, really
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: thank you for having me on man. One of these days,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: I'd love to meet one of your mews or learn
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: a little bear hunting from you someday. So watch out,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: I might be might be seeking you out. Yeah, let's
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it all right, And that is
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: episode three. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: that one as much as I enjoyed recording it. Um
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: as I've been letting me know. Make sure to head
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: over to the meat eater dot com check out all
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: of our turkey content. We're just pumping out an insane
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: number of turkey hunting articles, really good stuff. I'm actually
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: publishing five new articles this week talking to all sorts
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: of different expert turkey hunters. So if you are getting
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: out there after some thunder chickens, you gotta check this
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: stuff out. It will help you. So with that out
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: of the way, I'm wishing you well, keeping you all
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: in mind until next time. Stay wired to hard