Latest / The Front / The ABC’s Trump edit drama: who really runs the show?

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The ABC’s Trump edit drama: who really runs the show? · The Front

0:03
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
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Speaker 1: It's Monday, February twenty three, twenty twenty six. Doctors should
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Speaker 1: be banned from bulk billing unless they spend time practicing
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Speaker 1: in the bush. That's a new policy idea from one
0:19
Speaker 1: nation's newest recruit. Barnaby Joyce. The former National Party leader,
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Speaker 1: also says the tax system is too complex and the
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Speaker 1: party should consider modeling the cost of shifting to a
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Speaker 1: flat income tax rate where everyone pays the same proportion
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Speaker 1: of their earnings. That's an exclusive life now at the
0:38
Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot a U, where we're looking closely
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Speaker 1: at one nation's finances, policies and prospects in a special
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Speaker 1: report today. More than five years on from the riot
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Speaker 1: at the Capitol in Washington, DC, and it's still causing
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Speaker 1: grief for media organization. Trump is suing the BBC for
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Speaker 1: ten billion US dollars for the way it edited his
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Speaker 1: speech that day. Trump's lawyers say it created a false
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Speaker 1: sense that he'd incited the violence. The BBC's apologized and
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Speaker 1: the scandal cost two senior executives their jobs, But the ABC,
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Speaker 1: which also did a selective editor of Trump's speech has
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Speaker 1: robustly defended itself Today The Australians revealing internal ABC emails
1:29
Speaker 1: that show as senior journalist and PR executives shaping the
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Speaker 1: words used by the managing director, Hugh Marx in response
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Speaker 1: to questions about its conduct. So what's fair when it
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Speaker 1: comes to Trump? And who really runs the ABC? Steve
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Speaker 1: Jackson joins me in just a moment. Steve Jackson is
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Speaker 1: The Australian's media editor and is here to talk to
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Speaker 1: us today about a story that goes back. Like everything
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Speaker 1: in media, JACKO, I think to Donald Trump, He's at
2:02
Speaker 1: the root of all stories. In twenty twenty one, the
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Speaker 1: ABC's Four Corners program aired a story hosted by Sarah
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Speaker 1: Ferguson about Donald Trump's speech in Washington, DC on January sixth,
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Of course, we all know that turned
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Speaker 1: into a riot where a mob of people stormed the
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Speaker 1: Capitol Building wanting to hang Mike Pants, the Vice president.
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Speaker 1: This is after Trump disputed his loss of the twenty
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Speaker 1: twenty election. Let's listen to what the ABC aired in
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Speaker 1: that program.
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Speaker 2: And after this we're going to walk down and I'll
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Speaker 2: be there with you because You'll never take back our
2:38
Speaker 2: country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you
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Speaker 2: have to be strong.
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Speaker 1: So what the ABC cut out was a line where
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Speaker 1: Donald Trump said that what they were going to do
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Speaker 1: when they got down to Congress would support the brave
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Speaker 1: senators and congressmen and women.
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Speaker 3: And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and
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Speaker 3: congressmen and women.
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Speaker 1: So that's what the ABC cut out of that speech.
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Speaker 1: This caused a huge drama within the ABC. Why.
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Speaker 4: Well, it's that interesting thing about what you leave out
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Speaker 4: is almost as important as what you put in. So
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Speaker 4: they have Trump talking about We're going to walk down
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Speaker 4: the Capitol Hill. We're going to walk down there. I'm
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Speaker 4: going to be there with you, and it sounds like
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Speaker 4: a call to power, right like, we're going to walk down.
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Speaker 4: What are they going to do when they get there, Well,
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Speaker 4: that's the part they left out. They're going to cheer.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, what actually happened was that they went down there
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Speaker 1: and started a riot and attempted to destroy the building.
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Speaker 1: I think at one point attempted to set it on fire.
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Speaker 1: It's probably the hottest issue in American politics between Trump's
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Speaker 1: two terms. His enemies thought that it was going to
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Speaker 1: be the end of him. His fans didn't really seem
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Speaker 1: to care. They obviously re elected him anyway. So when
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Speaker 1: the ABC was asked questions about this, did they respond
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Speaker 1: with a reasonable and measured response, Jacko to their questions, Well.
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Speaker 4: It's interesting. So when this came to a head last year,
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Speaker 4: questions have come in quite naturally from the Australian just
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Speaker 4: going well, we want to know a little bit more
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Speaker 4: about this. We weren't the only ones talking about it
4:07
Speaker 4: was widely discussed and we fired in some questions and
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Speaker 4: said can we get an explanation? The ABC has done
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Speaker 4: what it usually does, siege mentality. They're accusing one of
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Speaker 4: our own of doing something. What are we going to do?
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Speaker 4: We're going to circle the wagons. So Hugh Mark's the
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Speaker 4: new managing directors, agreed, you know what, I'm going to
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Speaker 4: put out a statement. It's going to be my words,
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Speaker 4: my view, my defense of our program. Brilliant. But as
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Speaker 4: always it's one of those things of Hugh will let
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Speaker 4: you know what your opinion is when we want it.
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Speaker 4: So it's actually been workshopped for him. Now. There's nothing
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Speaker 4: surprising about that, per se Claire, as you'll know, quite
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Speaker 4: often when it comes to corporate responses, there's a whole
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Speaker 4: heap of spinners doing their dark arts behind the scenes.
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Speaker 4: What are they going to say? And they come up
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Speaker 4: with it. What's surprising in this instance is documents that
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Speaker 4: have been released to the Senate reveal the very person
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Speaker 4: that Hugh Marx is defending is the person telling him
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Speaker 4: what to say and requesting repeated edits of the supposed take.
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Speaker 4: You Marx has got to give him a clear review
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Speaker 4: of how he should be defending her. And that's the
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Speaker 4: host of seven thirty and the presenter of that report,
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Speaker 4: Sarah Ferguson.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: In the emails that you've obtained, these internal emails at
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Speaker 1: the ABC, Sarah Ferguson says about those words that were
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Speaker 1: cut out of Trump's speech, the extra words do not
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Speaker 1: change the audience's understanding of his message urging the crowd
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Speaker 1: to pressure Congress to refuse the certification and overturn the
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Speaker 1: election result. The undisputed purpose of the protest and his speech,
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Speaker 1: she says, NB subsequent to broadcast, Congress failed to reach
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Speaker 1: the bar of proving criminal incitement of the riot. But
5:45
Speaker 1: as the quote from McConnell makes clear, the facts of
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Speaker 1: his role that day in encouraging the crowd to pressure
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Speaker 1: Congress to stop the certification are not disputed. This speech
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Speaker 1: by Donald Trump was very long. It was an hour,
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Speaker 1: like most of his speeches, and of course to get
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Speaker 1: any of it on TV, you're going to have to
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Speaker 1: cut it down. A four corners report is about fifty
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Speaker 1: five minutes. There's no way you can play the entireety
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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump's speech in what you need to be
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Speaker 1: an entertaining piece of journalism. So it's fair enough to
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Speaker 1: cut something out. The question is did what was cut
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Speaker 1: out change the meaning of Donald Trump's speech? And this
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Speaker 1: is his response to the fake news media. This is
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Speaker 1: what he says we do all the time to him,
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Speaker 1: which is cut out the context unfairly paint him as,
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Speaker 1: in this case, someone who's inciting violence. What's your view
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Speaker 1: before we discuss Sarah Sarah Ferguson's response, you've worked for
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Speaker 1: a long time in TV and in newspapers. What's your
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Speaker 1: view of cutting out the words we're going to cheer
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Speaker 1: on our brave senators in congressmen and women.
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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's the difference that long form quite
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Speaker 4: often offers people because in six PM news bulletins and
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Speaker 4: seven pm on the ABC. Obviously what we get is
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Speaker 4: such tightly edited he said, she said, really snippets of
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Speaker 4: grabs or quotes. So the advantage of full corners is,
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Speaker 4: all right, let's break it down. Let's stop with the
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Speaker 4: black and white heroes and villains. Let's show the shades
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Speaker 4: of gray. This quote, this grab, in television parlance, is
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Speaker 4: what the story is about. Did he insight violence? And
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Speaker 4: so cut down your experts, cut down other speeches, cut
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Speaker 4: down other context. When this is such an important part
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Speaker 4: of your story, give people the full information, and if
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Speaker 4: you have to cut other things out to run along
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Speaker 4: on this and reveal everything he said, that's what you
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Speaker 4: need to do because the audience deserves to know, not
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Speaker 4: just he's part of what he said? What did he say?
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Speaker 4: And I think that's what four corners viewers, you're one,
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Speaker 4: I'm one, want to know. Let's just lay it all out.
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Speaker 4: And so I think that it is a failure of
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Speaker 4: the ABC in this circumstance to recognize that this is
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Speaker 4: such an important and crucial part of the story that
7:45
Speaker 4: it deserved to be in there.
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Speaker 1: When you watch a full Donald Trump's speech, I think,
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Speaker 1: really get the nuance of his public persona in a
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Speaker 1: much better way. At the Charlie Kirk funeral, for example,
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Speaker 1: he was cracking jokes, he was making self deprecating remarks
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Speaker 1: about himself in comparison to Charlie Kirk. He was getting
8:07
Speaker 1: laughs out of the audience, even though it was a
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Speaker 1: very sad moment. You get a picture of Donald Trump
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Speaker 1: has a much more complex political individual rather than the
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Speaker 1: kind of brash, one note demagogue who we see on
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Speaker 1: the TV news. And that's part of the Donald Trump story,
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Speaker 1: isn't it. You know, if you just see those short grabs,
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Speaker 1: you think, why would anyone vote for this guy? If
8:27
Speaker 1: you actually listen to what he's saying, you're like, oh,
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Speaker 1: I see why people find him appealing at a vuncular, warm,
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Speaker 1: charming in ways that maybe the rest of us don't.
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Speaker 4: I mean, that's the beauty from an editorial point of
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Speaker 4: view of Donald Trump. He's a grab machine. You turn
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Speaker 4: up to any event he's at, and you know you
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Speaker 4: can splice it up into something interesting. We've seen the
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Speaker 4: commercial TV networks who didn't have Washington based bureaus, they're
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Speaker 4: all moving to operating largely out of La Hollywood. Stars,
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Speaker 4: you know, and traveling to Washington when they needed to
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Speaker 4: do something at the White House. Donald Trump comes in.
9:03
Speaker 4: This guy is more entertaining than Hollywood. We need to
9:05
Speaker 4: be boots on the ground to all his press conferences
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Speaker 4: because he offers it up. But when you have that
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Speaker 4: advantage that four Corners has, and let's not forget compared
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Speaker 4: to commercial TV, where sixty minutes in spotlight, we're talking
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Speaker 4: forty two minutes, forty three minutes of actual programming time
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Speaker 4: and seventeen minutes of ads, the ABC has this great
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Speaker 4: opportunity to go, hey, we're the ones who've got the time,
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Speaker 4: we've got the space. We know they've got the funding
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Speaker 4: because we pay for it to tell you the full,
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Speaker 4: unadulterated story and show that nuance. And I think that's
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Speaker 4: what viewers expect, and not for them to take a
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Speaker 4: stance on it because love him or hate him or
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Speaker 4: just be entertained by him. It's not for them to
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Speaker 4: decide whether or not he's inside violence. It's up for
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Speaker 4: them to just obviously report it and show all that
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Speaker 4: all that color, all that nuance, all that complexity. That's
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Speaker 4: what we expect and that's what we deserve.
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Speaker 1: So in the emails that you've obtained from the ABC.
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Speaker 1: You see Sarah Ferguson in there being very elbows out.
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Speaker 1: She is dictating the response that she wants to be heard.
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Speaker 1: And I've got to say, if I were Sarah Ferguson,
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Speaker 1: I might be in there too. I don't necessarily think
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Speaker 1: I would trust the PR people and the executives to
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Speaker 1: defend me. She certainly gives the impression that she wants
10:21
Speaker 1: to write this response right.
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Speaker 4: And look, I don't blame her name any journal in
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Speaker 4: the country that doesn't care about their story, And there's
10:28
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with her wanting to defend her journalism. Absolutely
10:31
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with it. It's just that she's taken the
10:33
Speaker 4: words out of few Mark's mouth and put her own
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Speaker 4: in there.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, the merely mouth nature of the ABC's initial attempted
10:42
Speaker 1: the responses seems to be what's annoying her.
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Speaker 4: Right. She's spot on though, like Sarah Ferguson is spot
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Speaker 4: on right, because it's one of these things that even
10:50
Speaker 4: we're tired of hearing it in the media. Claire, how
10:52
Speaker 4: many times have you heard someone say we stand by
10:55
Speaker 4: our story. Is it even meaningful anymore?
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Speaker 1: What does it tell you about the internal dynamics at
11:01
Speaker 1: the ABC. You know who's really in charge, who's really
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Speaker 1: got the power.
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Speaker 4: Well, I think it says it all if Sarah Ferguson says, oh,
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Speaker 4: you know, it's all right. I like what you've done
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Speaker 4: with this. I see where you're going. But I think
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Speaker 4: it should say it was a powerful piece of journalism
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Speaker 4: and we're proud of it. And then lo and behold
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Speaker 4: an hour later the words coming out a few Mark's
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Speaker 4: mouth it's a powerful piece of journalism and we're proud
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Speaker 4: of it. And it's one of those things of all
11:26
Speaker 4: of a sudden we're seeing for the first time who
11:28
Speaker 4: the puppet master is pulling the strings. And you're not
11:31
Speaker 4: supposed to see that in the show, but we've got
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Speaker 4: the documents and we know really it's the journal's pulling
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Speaker 4: the strings and the executive there just to play along
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Speaker 4: and tell them you're brilliant. That's not their job. And
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Speaker 4: I think it's one of these things that happens quite
11:44
Speaker 4: often at the ABC, and we're seeing it again and
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Speaker 4: again with these documents. We're getting that they're confusing loyalty
11:51
Speaker 4: with professionalism. They think circling the wagons and backing up
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Speaker 4: their staff regardless means that they're being great bosses. It's
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Speaker 4: not what their job is to ascertain the facts. Now,
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Speaker 4: I know if you've got a story, if I've got
12:03
Speaker 4: a story and there's questions about it, our bosses will
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Speaker 4: read it and they'll review it and they'll come to
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Speaker 4: us for our point of view. But we don't tell
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Speaker 4: them what they say. That is just the way it operates.
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Speaker 4: And particularly in a public broadcaster, in a public organization,
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Speaker 4: you can't have the tail wagging the dog.
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Speaker 1: So let's listen to the BBC's version of this story.
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Speaker 1: And this is really the backdrop to why this is
12:32
Speaker 1: a big deal, right. The BBC did a similar story
12:34
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, but did a much more sort
12:37
Speaker 1: of stark edit of Donald Trump's speech. I'll play that
12:41
Speaker 1: for you, JACKO. We're going to.
12:42
Speaker 2: Walk down to the capital and I'll be there with you,
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Speaker 2: and we fight.
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Speaker 1: We fight like hell.
12:50
Speaker 2: And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going
12:52
Speaker 2: to have a country anymore.
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Speaker 1: Here's what Trump actually said. This is from the raw footage.
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Speaker 1: You'll hear there's a slight digital gleach, but we haven't
13:01
Speaker 1: edited this at all. It's the full speech as it
13:04
Speaker 1: ran on American TV Live that day.
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Speaker 2: And after this, we're gonna walk down and I'll be
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Speaker 2: there with you. We're gonna walk down. We're going to
13:14
Speaker 2: walk down anyone you want. But I think right here,
13:18
Speaker 2: we're going to walk.
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Speaker 5: Down to the Capital.
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Speaker 3: And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and
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Speaker 3: congressmen and women.
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Speaker 1: So again that's the line that the ABC cut out,
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Speaker 1: the BABC cut out more.
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Speaker 2: And we're probably not going to be cheering so much
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Speaker 2: for some of them, because you'll never take back our
13:43
Speaker 2: country with weakness.
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Speaker 3: You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.
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Speaker 5: We have come to demand that Congress do the right
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Speaker 5: thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully
13:58
Speaker 5: slated lawfully.
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Speaker 2: I know that everyone here will soon be marching over
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Speaker 2: to the Capitol Building to peacefully and patriotically make your
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Speaker 2: voices heard.
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Speaker 1: Peacefully and patriotically. That's the key phrase there that neither
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Speaker 1: the ABC nor the BBC used. The BBC is now
14:17
Speaker 1: being sued by Donald Trump for billions of dollars. What
14:21
Speaker 1: impact is that having on journalism, particularly at the BBC.
14:25
Speaker 4: Well, it's one of those circumstances, and I think that
14:28
Speaker 4: what we're seeing now with the rise of social media,
14:30
Speaker 4: which is only a good thing. Is this has been
14:32
Speaker 4: a constant problem in television long format a sweets for
14:36
Speaker 4: a long time. Look, I did work experience at sixty
14:39
Speaker 4: minutes back in the nineties and it was an eye
14:42
Speaker 4: opener in as far as grabs were being married up
14:45
Speaker 4: with the wrong questions. Quite often it was an editor
14:48
Speaker 4: behind the scenes who said, you know, I think this
14:51
Speaker 4: goes better with that, or or will put this here
14:53
Speaker 4: and it's more entertaining. And right now we hear that
14:56
Speaker 4: happening still in married at First Sight, and it's controversial.
15:00
Speaker 4: Surely in the marriative first side.
15:01
Speaker 1: Are you saying it's not real?
15:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, but the contestants are saying that's controversial in reality TV.
15:06
Speaker 4: But when we see it in real life editorial reporting.
15:10
Speaker 4: And the advantage we have now is there's no longer
15:12
Speaker 4: this gatekeeper where we control the information and the public
15:17
Speaker 4: gets what's served up to them, because if you get
15:19
Speaker 4: caught doing this, people aren't stupid. I think it's that
15:22
Speaker 4: issue where traditionally some people, not all journalists, A lot
15:25
Speaker 4: of journalists have great respect for the audience, as we do.
15:28
Speaker 4: Because we've got the smartest audience in the country, but
15:31
Speaker 4: where they think that they're dictating the news. And the
15:33
Speaker 4: problem is the BBC's cut is obviously quite egregious. I've
15:38
Speaker 4: actually wanted to ask you your thoughts on this because
15:41
Speaker 4: we haven't had a chance to talk about it before. Now,
15:43
Speaker 4: I mean you've seen this sort of stuff in action before.
15:46
Speaker 1: Yes. Of course, as journalists we have to edit. That's
15:48
Speaker 1: what we do. We distill huge volumes of complex information
15:53
Speaker 1: and what we cut out is as important as what
15:55
Speaker 1: we leave in. Every cut and every word is editorial choice.
16:01
Speaker 1: I think it's there's a false distinction between analysis and reporting. Really,
16:05
Speaker 1: people say, oh, all I do is report, I don't analyze,
16:08
Speaker 1: I don't put my own opinion in there. I think
16:10
Speaker 1: that's not true. Every choice that we make, every quote
16:14
Speaker 1: that we use, is analysis. We're shaping how we want
16:17
Speaker 1: our audience to read the story. And the only way
16:20
Speaker 1: to do balanced reporting is to make sure everybody gets
16:23
Speaker 1: a fair go and that what you quote is a
16:26
Speaker 1: fair reflection of what they've said. And this is the
16:29
Speaker 1: issue with Trump. If you quote from him, I think
16:33
Speaker 1: you need to make sure that not necessarily you're using
16:37
Speaker 1: forty five minutes, but that you are giving a fair
16:39
Speaker 1: impression of what he did and what he said. I
16:42
Speaker 1: think it's inexcusable to leave out a phrase like peaceful
16:45
Speaker 1: and patriotic and also the brave senators and congresswomen, because
16:50
Speaker 1: that was in there. I mean, I still think, actually
16:53
Speaker 1: is my own personal opinion, that Donald Trump was whipping
16:57
Speaker 1: up this crowd, but he was doing it in a
16:59
Speaker 1: Donald Trump way, in a subtle way. He didn't say
17:02
Speaker 1: go down there and riot. In fact, he said the opposite,
17:05
Speaker 1: but you might think that his body language and the
17:08
Speaker 1: fact that he could see that this crowd included people
17:12
Speaker 1: who were holding signs saying hang. Mike Pence told a
17:16
Speaker 1: different story.
17:17
Speaker 4: Well, we saw that in Australia two decades ago when
17:20
Speaker 4: Alan Jones got in trouble for telling people effectively, don't
17:24
Speaker 4: go down to Cronulla and start right but here's where
17:27
Speaker 4: they're meeting up. And you know, if you want to
17:29
Speaker 4: join in, you shouldn't. But if you did it, it's
17:32
Speaker 4: on here and now and this is when it's occurring.
17:34
Speaker 4: And by publicizing those details and whipping it up, but again,
17:38
Speaker 4: as you say, by being provided with that full context,
17:42
Speaker 4: it's really for the viewer to make their decision. And
17:44
Speaker 4: you know, It's one of those things where the more
17:46
Speaker 4: information you give, and as you say, the essence of
17:49
Speaker 4: the quotes, it's important. It's crucial.
17:51
Speaker 5: Right.
17:51
Speaker 1: Having said that, certainly not on Donald Trump's side in
17:54
Speaker 1: his lawsuit against the BBC. It would be catastrophic for
17:58
Speaker 1: Britain if the AB was forced to hand over five
18:02
Speaker 1: billion dollars to Donald Trump in a defamation payout, wouldn't it?
18:05
Speaker 1: And what do you think about that?
18:06
Speaker 4: I disagree with anyone suing journalists at any point, but
18:11
Speaker 4: obviously I think, you know, have a conversation, call them
18:15
Speaker 4: up and go, hey, you've got this wrong. Give me
18:17
Speaker 4: a chance to tell my side. There's not a journal
18:19
Speaker 4: in the world that won't go, oh you beauty, I've
18:21
Speaker 4: got the next story. I'm strongly against, particularly Donald Trump.
18:25
Speaker 4: His defense in this conversation is it's a great American
18:29
Speaker 4: tradition to be able to hold the power to account.
18:32
Speaker 4: And I'm saying, actively pursue your your rights to protest
18:37
Speaker 4: and then to turn around and go. But I don't
18:38
Speaker 4: like their right to free speech. You can't have it
18:41
Speaker 4: both ways. And I completely disagree with and let's face it,
18:45
Speaker 4: it's not five billion dollars worth of damages to his reputation.
18:48
Speaker 4: If anyone thinks less of him for that, you know,
18:51
Speaker 4: I'd like to meet who they are, because because all
18:53
Speaker 4: it has done is solidify the people who had conflicting
18:56
Speaker 4: views about him already.
18:57
Speaker 1: Well, he went on to win the election, of course,
18:59
Speaker 1: didn't he. That sumably will be Exhibit A in the
19:01
Speaker 1: bbcister fense. So we didn't destroy his reputation. Mark he
19:04
Speaker 1: is the ruler of the free world, and his aunts
19:06
Speaker 1: in his second term showing I think I'm more powerful
19:10
Speaker 1: Donald Trump than even we'd anticipated.
19:12
Speaker 4: Well, obviously there's a fair bit of a look over
19:14
Speaker 4: here those Epstein fight Well Epstein, what you know? So
19:18
Speaker 4: look everything with Donald Trumpy's showmanship. But at the same
19:22
Speaker 4: point we have to present the full show.
19:27
Speaker 1: Good cool, Steve Jackson, thank you very.
19:31
Speaker 4: Much, Thank you for having me again, Clay.
19:37
Speaker 1: Steve Jackson edits The Diary in The Australian's Media section.
19:41
Speaker 1: It's live right now along with all the rest of
19:43
Speaker 1: Australia's best coverage of media, politics, business, sport and entertainment.
19:48
Speaker 1: Check us out now at the Australian dot com dot
19:51
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