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Simon Court: New-look Resource Management Act · The SME Stream

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Our cabinet has agreed that new RMA rules should only
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: restrict a building that impacts other properties or the wider environment.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: The government said enjoyment and property rights will be the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: guiding principle and replacing the RMA. But how much will
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: it really improve development? What difference will it make? Well
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: to discuss that with me. Now is the Undersecretary to
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: the Ministry responsible for RMA reform, and he is Simon Court.
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  Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Good afternoon.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: You know Simon. Every time I would say most New
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Zealanders hear the word the letter's rama. It's never about
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  Speaker 1: anything good. What's wrong with it?
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  Speaker 2: Well, for too long the Resource Management Actors made it
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  Speaker 2: too difficult, unclear, too expensive to get consents to build
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  Speaker 2: things that we know we need, whether it's housing, subdivisions
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  Speaker 2: or new bridges. For example, my background as a civil engineer,
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  Speaker 2: I've worked on landfills, worked on rooting projects, and the
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  Speaker 2: time it takes to get consens for things is often
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  Speaker 2: longer than it takes to build things. So I've been
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: thinking about this for many years, and now as part
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: of a coalition government, I have an opportunity to put
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  Speaker 2: some of some of the concepts that Act campaigned on
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  Speaker 2: and that are in the Act National Coalition Agreement into practice,
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  Speaker 2: which is to replace a system we've got which is
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  Speaker 2: called integrated resource management, mixing up development aspirations for the gosh,
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  Speaker 2: we've got to protect everything everywhere we find it, the
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  Speaker 2: precautionary principle saying well, we better not do it now.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to have a system that's going to be enabling.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to agree it's not if we can build something,
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  Speaker 2: but where. And guess what. We know that most things,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's the bruche or a subdivision, have been one
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  Speaker 2: thousands of times before, and they've been done with minimal
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  Speaker 2: environmental impact. We can simply take all of those learnings
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  Speaker 2: put them into a new law rather than having to
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  Speaker 2: have people apply for consents for things that we already
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  Speaker 2: know how to do. Well.
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  Speaker 1: Is it just straightforward just to say, look, we're not
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  Speaker 1: reforming now, we're throwing this one out and we're starting
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  Speaker 1: from Is it starting from scratch?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we certainly are the problem with the resource management
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  Speaker 2: that is, it talks about all of these concepts going
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: back to the nineteen seventies, like sustainable development and integrated management.
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  Speaker 2: It's just not possible there's no other country in the
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  Speaker 2: world has copied what New Zealand trying to do. Bringing
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  Speaker 2: all these things of the one law. Most of the
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  Speaker 2: OECD countries have separate law for development and housing, particularly
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: for infrastructure enabling, and separate law that sets environmental limits,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: say for fresh water, coastal areas or air quality. So
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: we're going to create two separate pieces of legislation, and
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  Speaker 2: it's going to be very clear. There will be environmental
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  Speaker 2: limits and places that there need to be and that
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  Speaker 2: are special tikiwis. But most of the places that we
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  Speaker 2: want to get on and build, whether it's state highways,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's wastewater treatment plants or pump stations, housing subdivisions,
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  Speaker 2: they're going to be shown on a map where they're going,
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  Speaker 2: and at that point it will going to be having
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  Speaker 2: to ask for permission. All will be doing is making
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  Speaker 2: sure that those things fit within existing environmental best practice.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: How different does your approach to what labor would because labor,
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  Speaker 1: we're trying to reform it as well, weren't they.
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  Speaker 2: Labor had proposed a very complicated theories of new laws,
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  Speaker 2: which included new and mystifying terms like temana tayo, which
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  Speaker 2: the lawyers. I've just been a couple of days with
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  Speaker 2: the Planning Conference, and New Plymouth this week said they'd
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  Speaker 2: had no idea what that meant, how long it's going
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  Speaker 2: to take to work out what it meant. That's the
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  Speaker 2: last thing you do to give confidence to people who
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  Speaker 2: want to get on and build stuff. They had also
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  Speaker 2: planned that it would take ten years to implement their
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  Speaker 2: new system. Well, what we're saying is, look, it's much
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  Speaker 2: simpler than that. We've got to stop Resource Management doing
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  Speaker 2: the system doing things it's not meant to do. But
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  Speaker 2: the resource management system doesn't need to control climate change.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we've got the zero carbonat, we've got their
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  Speaker 2: emissions trading scheme. The Resource Management Act actually doesn't need
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: to control heritage. If some people who work at your
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  Speaker 2: local council think that the houses in your street look nice,
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  Speaker 2: well they should come around and knock on the door
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  Speaker 2: and ask for permission to lest those houses as heritage,
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  Speaker 2: rather than issue blanket heritage orders that actually make it
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  Speaker 2: much harder for people to develop their properties.
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  Speaker 1: So I noticed in Christship speech one of the sentences
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  Speaker 1: said that Cabinet has agreed to the high level principles
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  Speaker 1: for the system. What are the high level principles.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's around ten of them, and at a high
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  Speaker 2: level it essentially designs the outcomes of the act. So
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  Speaker 2: we want two acts with clear distinct purposes. We want
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  Speaker 2: two bottom lines, a double bottom line. We want to
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  Speaker 2: provide for essential human needs. That means infrastructure and housing,
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  Speaker 2: food production for example, drinking water, energy, And the other
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  Speaker 2: bottom line is environmental limits. We want councils to be
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  Speaker 2: able to set environmental limits for fresh water, say in
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  Speaker 2: their region, not have them set by central government national standards.
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  Speaker 2: For most of the things we already do well. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I've worked as a soil engineer, I work with people
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  Speaker 2: who do subdivisions, and I know that the erosion can
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  Speaker 2: centem control traffic management noise does They are all the
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  Speaker 2: same type of consent conditions every time there's almost no change.
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  Speaker 2: Wine can't we make these into national standards so you
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  Speaker 2: don't have to apply for consents. Now there's ten legislative criteria.
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  Speaker 2: If your listeners want to find out more, you can
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  Speaker 2: jump onto the high website. We'll certainly follow me on
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  Speaker 2: LinkedIn at Simon Court and I'll be posting with your
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  Speaker 2: updates about what we're up there.
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  Speaker 1: Have you had input or conversations with the opposition about this?
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  Speaker 1: And the reason I asked that is because obviously in
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  Speaker 1: major pieces of legislation, you know, we want an act
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  Speaker 1: that's going to persist. We don't want it to be
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  Speaker 1: played around within three, six, nine years time. So what
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  Speaker 1: input are you expecting or seeking with other parties in
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  Speaker 1: Parliament on this.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we will be seeking the cooperation and support and
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  Speaker 2: some of the things that we do agree on with
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  Speaker 2: your opposition, such as the need for spatial planning, one
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  Speaker 2: plan per region that shows where all the infrastructure is now,
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  Speaker 2: where the future infrastructure is, We're housing should be built
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  Speaker 2: up in a new transport bus center is going to
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  Speaker 2: be for example. There is no political disagreement that we
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  Speaker 2: need one spatial plan per region that your dad isn't
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  Speaker 2: an during concept. I think some of the challenges will
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  Speaker 2: place around the previous government wanted to make the treaty
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  Speaker 2: the center of resource management, and what we're saying is
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  Speaker 2: it's focus on private comperty rights. Many of the organizations
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  Speaker 2: I've spoken to ee Maori ruining organizations that want to
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  Speaker 2: invest in infrastructure and invest in their own housing the
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  Speaker 2: place problem they've got the barriers put up by the
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  Speaker 2: resource central system. The last thing they want to do
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  Speaker 2: is have to go and negotiate with cousins that get
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  Speaker 2: along down the road and take the position about how
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  Speaker 2: they should be allowed to develop their land. So we say, look,
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  Speaker 2: it needs to be around private property rights, enabling infrastructure
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  Speaker 2: and housing, protecting the environment with sound environmental and it's
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  Speaker 2: based on science, it's not based on vibes. We think
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  Speaker 2: we'll have this up and running within three years, so
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  Speaker 2: it'll be past this term of parliament and we aim
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  Speaker 2: to implement it very very quickly.
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  Speaker 1: What impact do you expect it to have on the
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  Speaker 1: cost of developments. Let's just look at say residential property
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  Speaker 1: and the cost of development. So how much money do
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  Speaker 1: you expect is going to be saved the expediency of
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  Speaker 1: what you're proposing.
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  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of the savings will be in the
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  Speaker 2: infrastructure provided to housing developments and where we want to
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  Speaker 2: build up san cities like Auckland or Tarron or Hamilton
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  Speaker 2: for example. The Infrastructure Commission estimates that New Zealand spends
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  Speaker 2: around one point three billion dollars per around them just
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  Speaker 2: on consenting infrastructure. Now we can move that into a
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  Speaker 2: national standard where you don't have to ask for permission,
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  Speaker 2: then potentially there's a billion dollars worth of savings right
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  Speaker 2: there that won't go on through householders and infrastructure uses.
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  Speaker 2: The other things we want to do is allow people
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  Speaker 2: who own property and want to build on it, whether
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  Speaker 2: that's housing or industrial subdivisions that actually provide jobs for people,
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  Speaker 2: that they can just get on and do that and
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  Speaker 2: they don't have to ask for permission. The only concern
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  Speaker 2: that they'll have to address is does this affect my
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  Speaker 2: neighbors if I'm building higher than allowed in the zone,
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  Speaker 2: or is the noise, you know, the traffic movements for example,
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  Speaker 2: going to affect people who who live next door. So
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  Speaker 2: we're going to make that much easier to get on
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  Speaker 2: and build the things that we need for housing that
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  Speaker 2: encourage employment, and we think we can do this relatively quickly.
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  Speaker 1: What about the environment are there? Does it create any
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  Speaker 1: dangers in terms of people go on doing developments or
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  Speaker 1: building infrastructure where the environment hasn't really been properly considered.
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  Speaker 2: Well, one of the problems we've got in the cities
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  Speaker 2: is that we do want to build out and up,
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  Speaker 2: and we have wastewater overflows in auckland into the harbor
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  Speaker 2: into our fresh water system, and in the countryside you've
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  Speaker 2: got concerns that farmers are not looking after fresh water
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  Speaker 2: for example. There's many different ways that are except to
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  Speaker 2: do this, whether it's constructing new wetlands, planting out the
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  Speaker 2: rapian species along the raperian margins, along stream banks. There
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  Speaker 2: are river care groups around New Zealand. Catchment management groups
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  Speaker 2: want to be able to take ownership of water quality
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  Speaker 2: in the regions. They're made up of farmers, regional counselors,
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  Speaker 2: ere groups. We want to empower them to do that,
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  Speaker 2: and they can do that by setting environmental limits that
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  Speaker 2: what they want to see in their region, rather than
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  Speaker 2: have it handed to them top down. So we've got
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  Speaker 2: to invest in the infrastructure. We're going to provide an
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  Speaker 2: enabling pathway to do that in our cities where there's
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  Speaker 2: real pressure on the environment from growth, and we're going
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  Speaker 2: to give the opportunity to fix up the local environment
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  Speaker 2: to people who know it best and love it best.
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  Speaker 1: What are the reactions you're getting any pushback or applaud
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  Speaker 1: its from councils around the country.
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  Speaker 2: Well over in the past couple of days, I've had
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  Speaker 2: the most incredible support from particularly lawyers and planners who
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  Speaker 2: work for councils that are trying to get their own
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  Speaker 2: infrastructure upgraded, whether it's upgrading the local wastewater treatment plant,
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  Speaker 2: building new roads, doing the coastal protection to stop the
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  Speaker 2: sea washing away roads and homes, for example. They're telling me, Simon,
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  Speaker 2: if you could get this up as quickly as possible,
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  Speaker 2: would make it much easier for us to actually deliver
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  Speaker 2: the infrastructure of our communities. Mest that we wouldn't spend
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  Speaker 2: years and potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in court
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  Speaker 2: for which results concern because someone turns up sectually a
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  Speaker 2: vixaious liquan says, well, we don't think what you're doing
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  Speaker 2: is right by the environment, and we're going to object raretually,
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  Speaker 2: going to make it much harder, if not impossible, for
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  Speaker 2: people who do not have direct interest of them, they're
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: not neighbors to object to the kind of things that
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  Speaker 2: a local government wants to do that benefit us all. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: overwhelming support from the planners and the lawyers have spoken
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  Speaker 2: to over the past few days. They're not worried about
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: their jobs. What they're really concerned about is extra delivant
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: better services for all their clients and getting on delivering stuff.
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  Speaker 1: So, how you mentioned a window of about three years
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to get this legislation passed. How long do you expect
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  Speaker 1: it to be until the rule changes? The new act
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  Speaker 1: would actually see a tangible change in the way we
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: get things done.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we'd like to have it passed. I think the
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  Speaker 2: intention is and from its Reluxe has confirmed this. Will
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  Speaker 2: we pass this term of government thinking a very rapid
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: implementation phase rather than creating a whole lot of new rules,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: simply saying, if there's a national environmental standard safe for
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: chele communications, renewable energy, for electricity transmission, all these things
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  Speaker 2: that really exist, then councils shouldn't be able to ask
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: for anything more, either in their plans or consents. Therefore,
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  Speaker 2: you're going to be able to do that as of right.
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  Speaker 2: What we're hoping to do is to turn off large
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  Speaker 2: parts of existing plans, essentially national standards for override, because look,
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  Speaker 2: we've got a national standard to protect the environment. There's
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  Speaker 2: no sense in all and capital's asking people for consent
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: conditions or for consents or putting planning conditions in their
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: local plans. We're going to make sure this is abled
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: to implemented by turning off making things less complex rather
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: than adding more stuff to them.
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  Speaker 1: So you're going to pass this term, You've got what
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: eighteen months to get it sort of eighteen months two
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  Speaker 1: years to get it all past, haven't you.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Fortunately, we're not starting from blank slate. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I've conducted more than forty interviews or people while in
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: opposition to come up with the policies that reflect accesspirations
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: for a system based on property rights. But that also
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: all the things that we've learned through the Select Committy
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: processes on the previous government's failed attempt at resource management reform.
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  Speaker 2: We're taking all the good things that infrastructure, property developers
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  Speaker 2: and the environmental scientists and fullness and we're putting them
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  Speaker 2: into this design outline. We're going to get a group
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: of experts, lawyers, planners, environment scientists, people with tau Maori
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: knowledge to essentially produce the bulletprint and the legislative architecture.
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  Speaker 2: We're well down the track. We're not going to be
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: waiting for for years for a group of lawyers and
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: do good is to tell us how to do this.
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  Speaker 2: We've set the agenda. There's around our teen legislative principles
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: and we're expected to get on and next drafting legislation
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: early next year, have it into the House in middle
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Excellent. Okay, hey, look, I'm going to appreciate your time
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: this after and it's a big job, so.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Crack on, thank you very much.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, there we go. That Simon Court is the under
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Secretary Parliamentary arounder Secretary for RM reform. We're going to
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: do some talkback after the break. And now the simple
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: question is do you, well, simple straightforward questions, do you
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: support RAMA reform. I would have thought that's that's a
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: no brainer, isn't it. I mean, is there anyone who thinks, no, no,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: RMA is working just fine right now? Do you support
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: it being basically let's throw it out and start again
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: and come up with a new piece of legislation. But
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: in particular the getting rid of I guess actually the
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: couple of things resonated. I think that there's a I
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: don't want to put this the wrong way, but it
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: does come across a little bit that in a lot
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: of our legislation there's a bit of virtue signaling going on,
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  Speaker 1: and I don't mean this to beat up on treaty
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: principal clauses and things like that, but more things that
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: are a bit amorphous and hard to sort of pin down.
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  Speaker 1: Do you support the idea It's like, hey, lock first principle,
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  Speaker 1: it's your property. Do what you will, but you must
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: do it within the law. But we're not going to
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: make you jump through a million hoopes. Do you support
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: this reform of the RAM and in Temp