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Jeff Kinley: Biblical And Common Sense Reasons Christians To Support Israel · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:02
  Welcome to Worldview Matters. Discussing controversial issues. Discerning current events. Defending biblical Christianity. No topic. Off limits. And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
• 0:20
  Friends and family in Christ, thank you so much for tuning in to Worldview Matters and for sharing. It's been getting out there. Thanks to God and to you. Another great guest. I love doing this because I get to talk and catch up with some awesome men and women of God. Today is no exception. It's Jeff Kinley. He's back with us. You can call him Pastor Jeff. You can call him Dr. Jeff. We'll get to that in a minute. But his website, of course, Jeff.com.
• 0:43
  Kenley.com. I think the last time we had him on, maybe Todd, maybe I had talked to them both about their recent book, A Visual Guide to the End Times. Just a phenomenal book. The illustrations are top notch, as you would expect.
• 1:00
  And so you can look that up on Amazon or go to JeffKinley.com. So we'll talk a little bit more about some of that and what Jeff has been doing lately and what's been taking up so much of his time. But I'm happy to have him here today. Brother, good to see you. God bless.
• 1:15
  Thanks so much, David. Always good to be with you. Yeah, thanks for catching us up here today. Let's start with this amazing prophecy cruise that you were just on. I saw some pictures, I think, on your Facebook page. It looked amazing. I couldn't believe I told you before we got on the podcast, couldn't believe that was on a ship. But it looked like an amazing auditorium, and just a really neat thing with, of course, you and Todd and also Jack Hibbs. Tell us about that.
• 1:42
  Well, it was an incredible time. And it was one of these cruises where, you know, when you book a cruise, you never know, is anyone going to sign up for this thing? And we had almost capacity filled up within a couple of months of registration. But, yeah, over 600, I think 650 people or so packed out this sort of theater in the round. It's amazing.
• 2:02
  They're on this Holland Cruise Line ship. It was sponsored by Harvest House Publishers. And, of course, Todd, myself, and Jack have all been published by Harvest House. And so they sponsored it. We came on. And I tell you, it was a week-long cruise. And we had probably eight or nine different messages. And the theme was Our Coming King.
• 2:23
  And so we began with sort of the beginning, what are the signs of the end times, and then basically walked through the entire book of Revelation on into the second coming, the millennial kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth. We did a total of about six hours of book signings and photographs, and we did probably a two-hour question and answer at the end, which was just phenomenal as well. Awesome. Yeah.
• 2:51
  And the bonus is we saw 12 people in the group give their lives to Christ during that time as well. So you think if you come on a prophecy cruise, you're already saved, but guess what? Yeah.
• 3:02
  People come, they get saved. That surprises me. I want to follow up on that a little bit because you think, okay, what are they? They're coming to hear about Bible prophecy, right? It's a prophecy cruise. So did you get to talk to any of them afterwards for like why they came there? Were they checking it out or what?
• 3:24
  From what I gather, some of them were family members that were brought, maybe husbands or wives. I know there was a 15-year-old girl that gave her life to Christ as well. And then also, you have people that are very curious. Maybe they've seen us on TV or seen Jack at his church or whatever. What are they like in person? And what would it be like to sit in their teaching? And so I think that combined with the fact that people are naturally wanting to know what does the Bible really say,
• 3:54
  But it was like, what do we know for sure? And so that's kind of what we camped out on during that week is the surety of Bible prophecy. And I'll tell you, the interactions that we had, of course, over dinners and lunches and in the hallway and on the stairwell and in the elevators. I mean, there was nowhere to escape. But it was a lot of fun. And we got to know some wonderful people.
• 4:13
  Okay, so let's go back now a little bit in June. Before we talk about what you recently completed and accomplished, which is a huge thing, but I'm going to kind of tease that for a couple minutes. Talk about Belgium. What were you doing there? What's the state of the church like? You were doing a conference there?
• 4:31
  Yeah, so the past several years, I've developed a relationship with a pastor there in Belgium, a wonderful man who is just being very faithful in a country that is living in the shadow of the European Union. I mean, I fly into Brussels and been over to the European Union. I've walked the campus there looking at the buildings, the statues to world peace, the statues to the euro, really their efforts to bring the world into one world government.
• 4:58
  beginning with Europe. And so it's a very dark place. There's a lot of surveillance that goes on in Belgium. You don't really see police walking around. They just have a lot of cameras. And so they catch you. They tell me. Interesting.
• 5:13
  So yeah, I mean, there is a lot of, I think, social pressure. It's a very secularized country as well, even though you see churches. But most of the churches would not be like we would call orthodox or evangelical there. And so this particular church I've gone to the past several years, we do a
• 5:31
  full-day Saturday conference, and then I preach on Sunday morning. Of course, it's translated into Dutch, even though there are a lot of English speakers. Then people come. They come in from Germany. They come in from Netherlands and other places to hear me, but it's a very rich time of fellowship. They have great questions. Their pastor is very solid. He teaches on prophecy, but it gave me an opportunity to speak on some subjects that they were curious about, like the
• 5:59
  the judgment seat of Christ, what's up with Israel and the world, and some other topics as well. So just, again, a rich time of fellowship, and I think an encouragement to the remnant church that we see there. So one more thing. I was just looking at your schedule here. Sugar Land Bible Church, you're going to rub elbows with Pastor Andy Woods. You're going to be at his church in a few weeks, right?
• 6:23
  Absolutely. Yeah. Andy is actually on a sabbatical. And so his church called and said, hey, we need you to come fill the pulpit and come to a Sunday school class. I was like, I'll be there. Big shoes to fill. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Physically.
• 6:38
  Yeah, more ways than one, exactly. That's why I don't like to preach with Andy, because when he stands beside me, I look like a child. I know the feeling. Yes. So I want you to share, Jeff, of what you just completed. How long did it take to finish your doctorate and tell us about your thesis and with how busy you are already?
• 7:01
  You've authored so many books, you're preaching, you're traveling, you're doing conferences, and you finished this. Tell us about this process, please. Yeah, I mean, several years ago, I sensed God's leading to pursue my doctorate to get that academic degree, and the timing just wasn't right. And so a few years ago, I started pursuing it again, and it worked out perfectly. I did it through Liberty University.
• 7:30
  And what was really kind of ironic about that, Dr. Ed Hindson, who is the chair of the religious education department there, the Department of Divinity, was really a friend of mine. And I took over his show, The King is Coming, after he passed. And so it was really kind of sentimental and a little bit sort of emblematic that I would get my doctorate from there.
• 7:50
  But it was over a two year process, very, very challenging academically. It was not an easy process to go through. And again, as you said, juggling everything else I've got going on. It really forced me to be incredibly disciplined with my time.
• 8:06
  There were times of great frustration during that, just fulfilling all the academic requirements. But last November, I was getting ready to actually defend orally my thesis. And they told me I had to do it within a week. And I said, well, I'm actually in Manila, the Philippines right now. And I'm on the 27th floor of a hotel here getting ready to speak at a conference the next day.
• 8:32
  And they said, well, you can do it from the hotel. So I ended up depending my doctorate from the Philippines and getting that all finished. But the official walking ceremony was this past May. So I wanted to be there physically and, you know, to get that degree in person. So it was a great experience.
• 8:50
  Well, congratulations. That's huge, brother. That is huge. So your thesis, The Error of Replacement Theology, and I mentioned before we got on the podcast, we've done a lot of shows on anti-Semitism, on false teachings, on replacement, even replacement theology. It's been a while, and I think it's so important because of this, I don't want to say cancer in the church. I don't know. You might describe it as that.
• 9:14
  It's pretty bad as far as the church in America and people that have been going down this road and pastors that are preaching this. What do you want to share about that? Go ahead.
• 9:24
  Yeah, it was very interesting for me because as I began thinking about, you know, where would I land? I mean, my official degree is a doctor of theology and apologetics, a doctor of ministry. But, you know, there's many different topics you could cover during that. But as I began to explore, you know, what God would lead me to begin my thesis on, that topic was really very heavy on my heart. And it was because of what I was seeing in the church, what I was seeing in the world. And basically, you know, I did a...
• 9:53
  sort of a control group with a Bible study that I do on Wednesday nights, and they helped me as I walked through this. I taught them through about eight different sessions on replacement theology and kind of where that comes from, and that's eventually going into a book about Israel that's in the works right now. But...
• 10:13
  All that to say is that what I saw and am seeing in the church are really a couple things as it relates to Israel. The first is just biblical ignorance on the topic. You found most Christians are fairly unfamiliar with just theology, right?
• 10:29
  period. I mean, eschatology, theology proper, Christology, pneumatology, whatever it might be, angelology. There's a level of biblical literacy just in the church, and mainly because a lot of churches just don't go very deep on Sunday mornings and for various reasons. However, I saw that ignorance, and I thought, well, I want to meet that need. I want to bring a sense of what does God's Word really say about this topic. And then secondly, just the global narrative about Israel, which
• 10:58
  that we've seen on the news, really the prevailing narrative, is that the Jews are the bad guys. And why would we ever want to support Israel just from a geopolitical standpoint? But then in the church, David, what I saw was people saying, well, yeah, well, they can't be God's chosen people. Israel can't be viable. Yeah.
• 11:20
  And so part of the pushback I had against that or for the topic was to sort of reeducate and transform people's minds and thinking and just say, what does the Bible say about Israel? Past, present and future. And getting that sort of biblical enlightenment, I found helped.
• 11:39
  bring about a dialogue. The questions were amazing. We answered a lot of questions about it. And so it ended up with, I don't know, 250 pages worth of doctoral study that you can go online and find and read. If you want to fall asleep at night, you can go read my doctorate. So, yeah.
• 11:56
  So, well, let's talk about some of the—I mean, the church in America didn't always generally go down this road. What do you think has happened in recent years? I mean, is it the biblical illiteracy in part? Is it the seeker-sensitive church or the church growth movement in part? Or is it people misinterpreting the scriptures and not understanding the Old Testament—
• 12:21
  when it talks about, I don't know, everlasting covenants, redefining the word everlasting. I don't know. What do you see, Jeff, as a couple of the issues that brought the church to where it is today when it comes to a misunderstanding of that doctrine?
• 12:37
  Well, part of it has to do with that there are whole denominations that I would say are committed to a covenant theology or a theology that just simply says that God has one people group throughout from eternity past to eternity future. And so they would therefore say that
• 12:54
  Israel, since they rejected Messiah, is then sort of under a punitive replacement. And so the church now is the new Israel. The promises that were made to Israel, they now spiritualize or allegorize into promises made to the church. Of course, the curses, they don't want to go with those, they just want to go with the blessings. Exactly.
• 13:18
  So we basically have a replacement theology, and not all of it is anti-Semitic, but I believe all of it does tilt towards anti-Semitism, because if you don't believe God is still dealing with the Jewish people, then you simply view Israel from a geopolitical standpoint, not a biblical standpoint.
• 13:36
  And yet when we read the scripture, we see that, as you mentioned, there are covenants God made with Abraham, with David, and then ultimately the new covenant and the land covenant as well that are not yet fulfilled and have a yet future fulfillment. And the thing to me is the game changer of game changers is in 1948 when Israel becomes a nation again,
• 13:58
  That ought to have made a lot of people say, no, wait a minute. The Bible did prophesy they would regather in the last days, according to Ezekiel 36 and 37 and other promises in the Old Testament. And we do see the book of Revelation that has hundreds...
• 14:13
  anywhere from two to four hundred allusions to the Old Testament, plus Israel and Jerusalem are mentioned throughout the book of Revelation and the end times narrative. So wait a minute. It seems like God's not finished with the Jews. And then we read in Romans chapter 11, where he tells us in verse 26, all Israel will be saved. So there's so many sort of post-apocalyptic and eschatological implications about Israel that are not yet fulfilled.
• 14:40
  And so to me, you have to do a little bit of hermeneutical gymnastics or interpretive, you know, gerrymandering to be able to get to that conclusion that God is finished with the Jewish people. Yeah. And you mentioned Romans 11. Don't you have to take like Romans 9, 10, and 11, and like you said, just do some sort of gymnastics to avoid what it's really saying, what Paul was really writing about? Yeah.
• 15:06
  That's absolutely true. In fact, Paul is answering the question in chapters 9 through 11 of Romans, well, what about the Jews now? Yeah. Because, you know, by the time Paul's writing this, the church is becoming more Gentile as the church concentrically expands throughout Asia Minor and throughout Europe. And so they're going, okay, so what about Israel? And Paul says, all right, let's talk about that.
• 15:27
  And he says literally in chapter 11, has God rejected his people? And then he uses the greatest denial, almost an expletive, if you will, in that verse. He says, no, by no means. Heaven forbid, God forbid. He has not rejected his people. Then in verse 29, he says that the gifts and callings that he had given to the Jewish people are irrevocable.
• 15:49
  So God making unconditional covenants to the Jewish people means that he is the one responsible for fulfilling those promises. So, yeah, Romans 9 through 11 answers all of those questions. And, you know, in Paul's mind, who's a brilliant thinker by himself without the Holy Spirit says,
• 16:07
  But when the Holy Spirit writes through him, he delivers a convincing apologetic and a polemic, basically to say, no, God still has business to do with the Jewish people, and that business is going to go all the way to the end of time. So explain to us, Jeff Kinley, how—
• 16:25
  Israel is a secular nation, and most Jews are not saved. There are many, many Messianic Jews and people who believe in Jesus, Yeshua, the Savior, the Messiah. But overall, that nation is very secular, and some would say...
• 16:42
  comparable to some of the stuff we see in America, like with the LGBTQ and with the corrupt government and just things like that, not the entire government, not every person, but the nation as a whole, the Jewish people. And I think the church can look at that and go, well, they're not saved. Why should we support them?
• 17:00
  So I think something you sent me was a very good question in our email exchange. You said, what does it look like for a Christian today, in our context as America, for a Christian today to support Israel? Knowing that, and based on what you said, though, God's got a future for them, but too many people look at how their state today and make assumptions and go, okay, I'm not going to support that. Just share your thoughts on that, please.
• 17:28
  Yeah, thank you. That's a great question. And I get asked that question a lot. I was at a conference recently where there was a group of college students who came up to me. Their mother brought them up to me and just said, explain to them about Israel. I was like, okay, how many minutes do we have, you know?
• 17:44
  But basically what was happening was you had these polar opposites of the mom was just almost glassy-eyed about Israel. Everything Israel does. They're God's chosen people. Everything is great. And then the college students being indoctrinated while being at college against Israel. So they're like, but we're Christians, so what should we believe? And I said, here's the thing.
• 18:05
  When we say we support Israel, we do not mean by that that we support everything the Israeli government does. I think any thinking Christian would say that. I don't support everything my own government does. Exactly. And so we want to be careful about that. Then people say things like, well, yeah, but they're a secular nation, and how can you support that?
• 18:26
  And I think, well, let's look back at the Old Testament. Can you name on one hand the number of good kings that ruled over Israel and Judah? There weren't that many. Most of them were pagan. They were worshiping demons. They were putting up pagan altars. They were chasing after pagan wives. And yet God's promise to that nation, even through their disobedience, held true.
• 18:49
  And so I look at Israel today. Someone has said some upwards to 80% of Israelis are either agnostic or atheists. You know, recently they proposed or they did this pride celebration down by the Dead Sea, which I don't recommend going to the Dead Sea to do a pride celebration, but...
• 19:08
  It's almost a little bit of taunting going on there. Explain that really quick. For those that might not understand the location of where they had this big pride, please explain that, Jeff, real quick. Yes. So Sodom and Gomorrah were located right there at the tip of the Dead Sea. And God incinerated those cities due to their heinous sin of homosexuality. And yet here they are going back and celebrating.
• 19:36
  Not just having, they're having full-on celebrations. It's a little bit of a shaking fist in God's face, it seemed, whether knowingly or unknowingly. But in terms of what do we mean when we say we support Israel, I say this. I said, number one, it means we support their right to exist. That's number one. That's not a political issue. That's really at its base a humanitarian issue, but it's also a scriptural issue. We support their right to exist. We support their right to be in their land.
• 20:04
  the land that they have occupied for thousands of years that God gave to them, that God promised to them, that God did miraculous deeds to get them into. We support their right to defend themselves. We would support any nation's right to defend themselves against foreign invaders, certainly our own nation. And so that's not something that should be political. But
• 20:27
  And we support their right to be blessed by Christians. So we have a mandate from Genesis chapter 12, verse 3 says, I will bless those who bless you. We should be blessing the Jewish people and individual Jews. And so we support the right to bless them. And then, you know, finally, we believe that there's going to be a,
• 20:52
  During the tribulation period, there's going to be righteous Gentiles who basically protect and support the Jewish people during that time because Scripture tells us, David, that as we get closer to the end times, moving on up to Zechariah 14 and Zechariah 12, that there's going to be a massive push of anti-Semitism, a final attempt at Jewish Holocaust, according to Revelation chapter 12. So all of this sort of dovetails into we support Israel.
• 21:19
  Not necessarily the decisions they make, though some may be very good, but their rights to be there, to be in the land, to be blessed. And then ultimately, we want to bring the gospel to the Jewish people. Paul said in Romans 11, 11, I want to make them jealous for what I have. And so that's part of our mandate as well.
• 21:37
  My goodness, Jeff, what you'd explain, most of it's really just common sense. And I think you mentioned the humanitarian side of things. I think too many people watch the wrong news outlets and get this information that's skewed and biased. And we've got to be careful. I've been saying this all year. I will continue to stand by my...
• 21:54
  Prophecy. No, I'm not a prophet. But I said at the beginning of this year, the word for the year for the American church is discernment. We've got to be discerning not just about biblical issues and spiritual things, but news, information, propaganda. It's off the charts. Anti-Semitic propaganda as well. So, Jeff, explain the land issue. I know we've talked about this constantly.
• 22:18
  uh for for a long time on this podcast but just not consistently and it's been a while that's where i think a lot of people get confused because they hear the word occupiers they they hear well the jews forced someone out of that land and took it over right jerusalem and you said thousands of years i'm going okay um i know that's true but a lot of people don't believe that maybe even christians can you expound on that a little bit please
• 22:41
  Yeah, so God made a promise to Abraham, Genesis 15. He outlined the exact boundaries of the land that he was gifting to him. Of course, it's God's earth. He can give it to anybody he wants to and divide it up any way he wants to. So he gave it to Abraham. Well, Abraham, excuse me, the Jews eventually went into the promised land, but they never...
• 23:01
  were able to possess all the land that God gave them, even under the reign of Solomon, which was when the boundaries were enlarged to their maximum point, still did not reach those boundaries. And so we believe that that possession of the land will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. So again, it's a portion of the land that's not yet been possessed by the Israeli people. So again, when you go back to, and for a Christian,
• 23:28
  It really has to do with the Word of God. It can't have to do with geopolitics or who's in what land or who's fighting who. What does the Bible say that the Israelis deserve from the promise of God? And that's the only thing we go by. And we either have to stick by what the Word of God says, or we have to go with what CNN says in Al Jazeera. So, you know, I choose the Bible on that issue and just let God speak to it. And just to what you were just saying about discernment, that is so spot on, David,
• 23:58
  unless we allow the Word of God to transform our minds, to help us think the right thoughts about everything, not just about Israel, because we have fallen minds. Our minds are prone to wander. You know, they're like a sieve. They just lose thought. We need God's Word to help us transform our thinking so that we can think the kind of thoughts that God wants us to think, so that we live the kind of lives God wants us to live.
• 24:22
  Amen, brother. Romans 12.2. Oh, my goodness. So, you know, I was thinking about the land. If you look at a map today, and I just don't understand how people fall for the propaganda that Israel's occupying the land. When you look at all these hostile...
• 24:39
  communist nations are not communists but muslim nations and dictators all around them enemies of god enemies of israel wanting to wipe israel this tiny speck the size of new jersey i know we've heard it a lot but it's so small and and we're going wow people really think that they need to give up more land it really is it's got to be spiritual because that's almost a delusion isn't it
• 25:03
  Yeah, it really is. I mean, people talk about conspiracies, but guess what? I mean, there is a satanic conspiracy. He wants that land. In fact, the Antichrist will go and he will invade a rebuilt Jewish temple during the middle of the tribulation period. All the armies of the earth, the Bible says in Zechariah, will form around Jerusalem to take Jerusalem, because that's where God's temple, God's presence will be. And so,
• 25:28
  Satan is very territorial. He wants that land. And so that's going to be the culmination. That'll be a part of the battle, the campaign of Armageddon at the end of the tribulation period. So all of history is moving towards Israel. People have often said Israel is God's timepiece for the end times, and it certainly does appear to be so.
• 25:48
  Oh, land. What an issue. I mean, there's a warning. I mean, Paul, I think, wrote in Ephesians, don't give the devil a foothold. Don't give Satan any ground. I want to mention that you can connect with Jeff Kinley on Facebook. You can look him up, Jeff Kinley, author, speaker, also Vintage Truth TV. Tell us about that. How often do you put up videos and your podcast on Vintage Truth TV on YouTube?
• 26:11
  Yeah, since I think 2018, I've been doing Venet's Truth Podcast. It's up on YouTube. We've got about 557 episodes, something like that, up on there. And so, yeah, there's a lot to listen to. Basically, I teach through books of the Bible during that time as well. And, of course, the Prophecy Prose and Jeff Kinley Live and just some other things I've got going in the works right now. Just a few. The Lord's keeping me very busy. Yeah. Just a few things.
• 26:36
  And he finished his doctorate. It's just, it really is unbelievable almost. And live to tell the story. Yes, yes. And maybe you might be able to write a book for Christians on discipline and time management based on what you just went through. No way. Yeah. So, you know, I know no pressure, Jeff, but you're an excellent author. You've got some great books. Do you have anything in the future you're thinking about writing or are you now? Yeah.
• 27:02
  Yeah, there's three books that are in the process of being put together. Yeah, right now. And so one of them is a book that's being made from the talks that we gave at the Harvest House Prophecy Cruise. That's going to be made into a book. I am about to sign a new contract about a book concerning Israel.
• 27:21
  And then there's another project that relates to the youth of America that we are working on right now as well. So lots of things in the queue. And once again, I know what I'm going to be doing in six months, Lord willing, because God just says, oh, just just keep working. And so doing the best I can. Well, thank you so much. I know your work is glorifying God. Thanks for your time today, brother. God bless you, David. Thank you. Thanks, Jeff. Friends, God bless you. And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter. See you next time.