Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 1 Episode 5 – Mark Christian – Sermon Prep & Delivery
Transcript
- Frank Weller: On today's episode of the Better Preaching Podcast, we talk with Mark Christian about his sermon preparation process and how he delivers sermons. Mark Christian, welcome back to the Better Preaching Podcast. Mark Christian: Hey Frank. Frank Weller: Amen. Last time we talked, we talked about your call to ministry and preaching. This time, what I really want us to do is focus on your process for writing and delivering sermons. I think it's unique. It's intriguing. I think better preaching requires both better preparation and better delivery. So let me ask you this. Do you prefer preparing for the sermon or delivering the sermon? Mark Christian: ⁓ It's discovery. Tuesdays in my week, we have a Thursday night service. It's the first of our four on the weekend. So we have one Thursday, three Sunday. So Tuesday is my hard chair, what Craddock would call the hard chair work. And ⁓ I look forward to Tuesdays more than almost every day of any week. Even the days I get to preach, I get excited. Tuesdays when I can get in my office like 6.30 in the morning before anybody gets there and they don't interrupt me unless someone's on fire. The only phone calls I'll answer from my sons or my wife. The rest of it is I can lock down for six hours. Now I have to confess Frank, we've known each other a long time and you know I'm an introvert. So a day in the office studying and researching and finding the nuggets that I get to present during the week, it makes my tail wag all week long. I love Sundays and Thursdays. but not as much as I've learned to love the discovery phase, the organizational design of a sermon, all of that. I just kind of geek out over it. So I like the preparation. I have students who love the preaching more than the preparation. That scares me because eventually the preparation feeds to preaching. And if you don't learn to love it or build the muscle for it, you're gonna run out of ideas and then preaching could become a drag. Frank Weller: I love the Fred Craddock reference, right? mean, there is no substitute for seat in the chair. You've got to put the time in. Mark Christian: Yeah, and that is what grows us as men as well as our preaching. And so, yeah, I want every student to discover the joy of sitting with the text and letting it work. Frank Weller: Well, six hours on a Tuesday is not enough time to prepare a sermon. So I know your ⁓ sermon cadence begins a rhythm, so to speak, begins long before that. ⁓ You know what? Take us backwards. Kind of walk, if six hours on Tuesday is the final brush up for what you're going to preach on Thursday, take us back to the very beginning. Talk to us about what's the evolution of that sermon. Where is it conceived? How is it developed? What does that look like? Mark Christian: Well, it goes all the way back to, ⁓ well, a long time ago ⁓ when I was coming from youth ministry into the pulpit at that particular church. For three and a half years, I was the associate minister. So I did a lot of adult stuff, but I was responsible for K through 12 at the same time. And then the preacher who I worked with in Mount Pleasant, Michigan was one of the most gracious men I'll ever meet. And a church reached out to me to wonder, asked me, would I be willing to interview to preach for them? And I wasn't that interested, but I went down and spoke at a youth event for them on a weekend and they started interviewing me during that process. When I went home and told the guy I was working with, he asked me if I wanted to preach more. I said, yes, I did. He said, do you want to do that here? Well, there wasn't a spot for me. He was there. He was kind enough to step out of the primary preaching role so I could learn how to preach in the local church. Having said that, a good friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours, served at the same church you did for a number of years, Ron Otto was making the same move. into the pulpit at South Lansing as I was. So he and I started getting together quarterly to talk about, what are you gonna preach? I don't know, what are you gonna preach? And we started sharing ideas, because we were frantic. We were willing, but we didn't know what we were doing, obviously. so we would meet. Primarily we got together, what are you gonna do the Christmas? Because we both got stifled by having to preach three full chapters in the Bible on Christmas, and we got to preach in... four times every year. So we started meeting over that. That was the origination of where ideas came from. A common heart in Ron, a great preacher. fascinated, wanted to be a better preacher, all of those things were contributing to my journey. Then he and I started sketching out what we thought we might do each year, and that started me on a curriculum format for preaching. Like if I have, I try to, depend on the year or season of the church, Frank, I try to go between nine and 18 months. What is gonna be the diet that we're gonna present to our church? in that nine to 18 month period. What is the theme of the year? Is there gonna be one theme or multiple themes? What have we not covered previously? And that started me thinking like an educator, right? Before I was one, how do you set up a curriculum for the people you get to preach? So that starts me on it. I can tell you now what I'll be preaching all the way through June of 2027. Is that adjustable? Absolutely adjustable. But there's a purpose behind every series. Because as a young preacher, I don't know if you experienced this, as a young preacher, what's next wore me out. The weeks that I would do a standalone and then I'd have to stand up in front of the people and defend why I chose this text. You sometimes the honest answer was the only idea I had. Now, when I have a standalone between series, then I know, ⁓ this would be a good fill. Frank Weller: Yeah. Mark Christian: This would be a good transition or bridge. It might be a Psalm. It might be a prayer of scripture. And so now I just feel like I have less frantic choosing of what to preach and I have a plan and that runs by several people. I don't do that in isolation. I do that in community. ⁓ I'm involved in a, it started with interns back when I was ⁓ in your neck of the woods and I was teaching at Great Lakes. I would have guys that would say, could they intern with me? And my only stipulation was they had to be preaching someplace because watching me preach wasn't going to teach them anything. Having to write sermons and writing them together and talking about them, the development of them, how did it go, the execution, that's what I live for. I just love talking preaching with preachers. I'm not an expert. I want to be a student. all of that came to fruition. And now I am involved in it. We've been involved in it for, in Missouri now for 16 years. There's a group of 10 to 12 guys that get together every first week of August. We get together at some rich person's lake house and everybody comes and pitches three sermon series ideas that they want to preach. And then we just whiteboard and we workshop those sermon series ideas. And everybody, we have a master Google sheet that shows what everyone's going to preach for the next 16 months. And you might come up with a great idea. And I'm like, okay, Frank, when are you planning on preaching that? I'm going to do that in the fall. Dude, I'm in. Let's write that together." And that whole genesis has allowed me to answer, long story, to answer your question, how do I come up with what I'm going to be preaching on? I've developed this system since 1990, and it has allowed me to never preach Malachi. Well, who's ever preached Malachi? So we sit down and talk about it. What worked? What didn't? Would you do it the same way again? And that, instead of me having to originate every idea, I get to take all of his ideas and translate them to the church I'm at. Frank Weller: And it amplifies creativity. ⁓ When you're in a dry season, it provides water and nourishment. I mean, there are just so many benefits to preaching, but there are a lot of ancillary benefits to being in a group like that that aren't even related to preaching, aren't there? Mark Christian: ⁓ absolutely. In this retreat, now Ron and I, I think with the exception of maybe three years, we have annually, at least annually, gotten together or talked about sermon writing and preaching and what he's preaching. But we've also gone to the retreat and after everyone pitches their ideas, we might spend an entire day helping someone who's so underwater and wants to quit and get out of ministry. And we just talk and pray and encourage. And I think without it being a work of the, it is a work of the Spirit, without being based on one person's authority or personality, we've actually helped guys stay in ministry who were ready to quit, so frustrated, so depressed. And even this last week, we have a text thread. One guy sent out, he said, he's preaching on Doughty Thomas. He said, I'm trying to think of, give me some examples of other people who got labeled for their worst moment in life. You know, and then everybody's just throwing in, now you know preachers. you get about six real answers and then you get a bunch of goofy things. But in those six, I just sat back thinking, this is so rich that guys from Florida and Illinois and Missouri and Michigan and Indiana, and I'm trying to think ⁓ Minnesota, all of these guys from different places are able to instantaneously pour into another guy and give him some creative thoughts. Or someone will say, hey, this is the phrase I've written. I don't love it, but I can't. get any better and then all of sudden we all get in there and workshop it and you walk away feeling like, man, I love this. Frank Weller: Yeah. And I mean, you've got just a mix of guys in that sermon writing group too. You've got guys who've been at it forever and you've got guys who are relatively relatively new and which is important because they all bring a different perspective, particularly. mean, look, you and I are Gen X. We're cynical. We've, you know, we're the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, stop your whining. But then there, know, you got you got millennials and I don't know, maybe even some Gen Z guys in that group who just have a different perspective and which is really helpful for you and me because we come at those other generational cohorts as immigrants, but they're native to that cohort that they're a part of. And that's helpful as we kind of explore how we're going to unpack a text or an idea. Mark Christian: with what, four if, and possibly five different generations now existing in the local church that could not have existed 50 years ago. So we get an opportunity now to say, I need, like my son came for the very first time. He's a junior at Ozark and he's preaching in a little ⁓ church in Missouri on the weekends. And so he and two of his classmates came for the first time and they were intimidated. I said, no, no, you're equal, you're a peer, jump in and talk because we need to hear. you know, every now and then my son will say, dad, you can't say that. And I'm like, well, what meeting was held that I wasn't invited to where you guys can dictate what I say. And then he explains it to me and I'm like, ⁓ okay. So I should pay attention to urban dictionary. All right, good to know. Frank Weller: Yeah. And it's even more mundane than that. You know, when I say JFK, you think President of the United States. When I say JFK, your son hears an airport in New York. Yeah. And so it's simple things like that. Well, listen, this is a good time to pause and thank our sponsor. Great Lakes Christian College is offering a new Master of Arts in Practical Theology program where you can learn at a flexible, convenient pace without sacrificing community. Mark Christian: Yes. Yeah. Frank Weller: You get real instructional support. Now this isn't a degree mill. It's more face to face and less busy work. GLCC is focused on helping you serve your church and community now and in the future. If you're ready to answer God's call to ministry, go to www.glcc.edu and get more details. So Mark, ⁓ we talked about this a little bit before, but you've preached at Christ Church now for 17 years, and you also preach to high school students pretty regularly at youth conferences. Do you approach these two audiences differently? And if so, how? Mark Christian: Yeah, in the local church, I can assume because I've been here long enough to know the people, that if we go to just an academic mindset, I use this terminology with our staff when we talk about this, there needs to be the 100, 200, and 300 level moments in the teaching of the text. Now, I want to make sure that everybody walks away with a clear understanding of what the text is purporting theologically and christiologically and so forth. That's huge. That's that 100 level. You need to understand this to understand what God is doing here, why He's doing it, and for who He's doing it. And then every now and then you can throw a nugget out that might be above some people's heads, but it keeps those veterans being fed. When I go to a youth event, and I don't know why at 61 years of age I still get asked to go to speak at a move. I've gone from being ⁓ like a bro and a youth minister to now being a dad figure. But what I really love to do with the high school kids is there's theologically illiterate. So instead of offending them, I get to break it down into bite-sized pieces and hoping it creates an appetite. So come in, it's like, I could use a lot of power here, but I'm gonna take half a swing on this. And I'm gonna make sure that I'm drawing out the most lucrative part of the text for you to understand. And ⁓ to quote ⁓ a friend of mine who's a professor at Ozark, Dr. Michael DeFazio, if there's anything we know people need, it's a clear vision of Jesus. And I feel like when I'm speaking to kids and college kids especially, they're starting to develop a hunger for Jesus to understand them on their own. And I love to be able to translate the text right down to that. You don't dummy it, but I think the Christology with students is as important as anything we get to do. In the church, I can take it to different levels and applications because these are adults with mortgages and kids and grandkids and you understand that as well. So that's how I go into it. And ⁓ as long as God gives me those opportunities, I want to try to seize them because I need that generation. We all need that generation to understand that He is as alive today as He's ever been and He's still working. Frank Weller: Yeah, and it sounds like you're really intentional about plumbing the depths. not, you're not, ⁓ you certainly don't take for granted that the students have come to the, come to the sermon with a body of knowledge. mean, we have to take into account the realities of biblical illiteracy for many of the people that we connect with. But at the same time, you're not willing to dumb it down. You're going to go deep. And I think, I don't know. But my experience, I don't know if it's your experience, but my experience is students want depth. They don't want it dumbed down. Mark Christian: Yeah, I think we also have to somehow allow them to understand that their church experiences, God has called them into something greater than the church they attended or how they did services or whether the preacher was interesting. I really want to invite them into a level of discipleship with Jesus, like the whole Dallas Willard concept of being an apprentice. of Jesus, not an apprentice of the church. I'm for the church, and I don't believe you can get Jesus without getting the church. But you can get the church and not get Jesus. And so I really just feel a call from failure in the past in ministry to make sure if they get anything out of this, they need to have a clear vision of Jesus. And then the church makes sense on the other side of that. Frank Weller: Love that. Love that. Mark, you preach at one of the largest churches in Missouri and you speak to thousands of students every year at youth conferences. And so as I know, you don't like the word, but you have a platform and I know you have concerns about how having a platform can change the way some preachers approach preaching. ⁓ Help our listeners understand that idea, that concern that you have. Mark Christian: Yeah. One of the elders at our church here said something to me about the stage, right? As much as I hate to say it, but when you're in a large room, lights and stage and sound becomes an important tool. Yet that can be misconstrued by the people in the church that assume that because they give me a microphone and put me under rotisserie lights on a stage, and I'm elevated above the crowd, that I've earned that. And one of my mentors and elders here at Christchurch named Peter Buckland, he said to me, your talent will put you on that stage, your character will keep you on it. And so I fear, I don't think, I think someone who pursues a platform, that's scary to me. I'm not better than them, but I think that's a dangerous poison you can drink to believe that keeping a platform is what you're called to do. And I see no evidence of Jesus seeking a platform. ⁓ You know, and Frank, if I demonstrate any humility, it's because of a brokenness that God stripped of me in Michigan. I didn't think I was arrogant or felt like I needed to be wanted. I found out pretty quickly I wanted to be wanted. And so in 22 years, God really did a great work in my life to bring a proper humility to me. I know who I am. I know what I'm capable of doing if given the opportunity. But if I never get the opportunity, cool. I don't need to beg for it or ask for it. And I could no longer find my identity in why Frank Weller got asked to do something and I didn't. And once God stripped that of me, and it was painful, but it was like the dragon's skin, right? He clawed it off. And when it was all said and done, I was like, okay. And so my father said something to me when I started in ministry. He was an elder in my home church. And my dad said to me, ⁓ there was an opportunity that came to me and he said, well, if it's a burning bush, go see if it's talking to you. And his simple homes wisdom, he was like, if someone offers you an opportunity, you didn't beg for it, you didn't seek it. If someone asks you to serve in a particular way in your gifting, why wouldn't you? If you're seeking it, then maybe you shouldn't. So I don't take any speaking opportunities unless I run it by three people. Frank Weller: Mm. Mark Christian: and they know my heart and they know my weaknesses and they know my ego. And if they tell me, don't need to do that, then I choose not to do it. But that's why I think a platform is a very, especially young in ministry now, when anybody can have their own Instagram presence, they can create their own podcasts, they can do all of these things. I just wonder if they have community that are checking their hearts. I can't sit in judgment, but I know the poison that opportunities can bring to people. And then it becomes about us and branding and, ugh, it just scares me. Because I see Jesus pursuing none of those. Frank Weller: Yeah, and it's... Yeah, it's not about the preaching and all of sudden your preaching becomes ⁓ the means to the end and the platform is the end. And that's a scary place to be. I love what you just said. Go ahead. Mark Christian: Yeah. Yeah, and if someone... Now you're finished. Frank Weller: I love what you said about ⁓ your dad. That's such great advice, man. I'm going to steal that friend because I talk to students all the time and I'll be like, hey, such and such church is looking for a children's minister. And I'll get students who just dismiss that out of hand because well, you know, I'm planning to go do this or that. And I love that. Hey, if that Bush is burning, walk over there and see if it's talking to you. That's fantastic. Mark Christian: Yeah, and that was just such homespun wisdom, but I'm so grateful for it because it postured my heart to say, if someone asks you to speak at something or do something, check your heart. But if you can serve the church in that, go ahead. But if that becomes so important to you that you wonder why you didn't get asked back or you didn't get feedback, that was a check in my heart that is like, I want to be liked. And that is something that God doesn't always reward. So am I willing to serve what I'm not liked? Am I willing to to say yes to something that's, it's not a big town. It's not a big platform. It's, 12 or 13 people. And yeah, so I've got millions of stories. I had a student recently, Frank, and I love this kid, but he told my son that there was an opportunity and he passed by because he's built for the big church. And yeah, so the next time I saw him in class, he and I went for a walk in the hallway and I didn't. Frank Weller: ⁓ boy. Mark Christian: I didn't yell at him, but I let him know that's the most dangerous thing I've ever heard you say. Because if you can't serve three people, then you don't get to serve 3,000. Frank Weller: And you and I know a lot of preachers who serve in big churches. And the ones that we admire and respect and want to be like are all guys that started out at churches of 50 and 60 people and learned their craft and put in the time and loved people. And it really wasn't about the size of the church for them. It wasn't about a platform. It's about ⁓ serving an audience of one. And if we can commit to that calling, then the rest of the stuff takes care of itself in God's sovereignty, whatever he wants. We'll just do that. Mark Christian: So I get to be at a church larger than I ever imagined I would be able to be a part of. what I've understood is this, and I'll say this before God, and He knows my heart, believes this true, it takes a whole lot more talent to be at a church of 125 than it does to be at a church of over 3,000. Frank Weller: That's intriguing. Go deeper there. Tell me more about that. Mark Christian: Because when I was in Mount Pleasant, I was exposed. The counseling, the hospitals, the emergency moments. I was a kid. I was 22 to 28 starting out in ministry as a senior minister, and I wasn't prepared. I didn't have the maturity and I didn't have the maturity to ask for help. didn't, I didn't, I felt like I had to do this because it was my job. And so to keep my paycheck and everything, all of these self-inflicted pressures. were ridiculous and it broke me. Like, I was failing at everything. Now the church was saying, ⁓ you're doing great because their standard was give us a good Sunday and we're great. And I'm thinking, no, there's the Monday through Saturday, that's discipleship and we're not doing it. And I'm not seeing growth. And Frank, it truly broke me. When I went to Missouri, I thought I was done with ministry because I was failing at everything I was trying to do. And then I see these guys that are in these churches of 125 to 150 in a little town that's not going to grow. And they don't get to speak at the alumni fest and they don't get asked to state conventions and all of this. And I promise you, I've had this vision a long time. is a line to get in the pearly gates. Let's imagine there is. It's going to be that little preacher who was in that little farm community in Michigan who served for 19 years and nobody noticed him. And he's going to get walked by all of us in the easy churches. And he's going to get walked to the front as a VIP and rightfully so because he had to do everything, sometimes with no help. And that took real talent, real character and real resolve. Frank Weller: Yeah. Mark Christian: And I looked at how I was shattered that I didn't have those things. know, now maybe, you know, my friends always say, well, they threw the keys to a 25 year old. Yeah, but I had a veteran with me the whole time. I still couldn't get it done. So when I went to a big church, I didn't go to a big church because it was a big church. In fact, you know, you don't know my journey with this. It's another story for another day, but I didn't want to go to it because it was a big church. I thought if I can't handle a church of 250. How in the world can I go to church seven times that big and not get more pressure and be broken even deeper? I was scared out of my mind, but God led. My toenails dragged all the way from Michigan to Missouri. Everyone's like, why wouldn't you wanna go? I was scared to death that I would fail again. So that's why I believe it takes more talent to stay. Frank Weller: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mark Christian: in an environment that's not big and cool, surrounded by a bunch of staff and finances in big cities. Look at, most of our big churches are in major metropolitan areas. That guy doing a work in, know, God knows where, Michigan, who has a... Frank Weller: Right. Mark Christian: 50 people in a town of 500, his percentage of people attending his church is bigger than Indianapolis or Louisville or Lexington and no disrespect to them, but that's my feeling. It's one guy's feeling, but I have so much respect for the guy who stays and he's not worried about the platform. Frank Weller: I love that, Mark. I think about my dad. So a lot of people don't, most people wouldn't know my dad and his story is pretty remarkable. When I was a junior in Bible college, my dad became a freshman in Bible college, sold the family farm and then spent the rest of his life as a bivocational preacher in little churches in North Carolina and Georgia and Michigan, Ohio, Indiana. And I remember one time dad called me up and he was discouraged. He told me was thinking about quitting. And I said, why? He said, well, this church, he said, is just, we're not growing. And I said, well, dad, you've been there five years when you went there, how many people were at the church? He said, well, there were 20 when I started. And I said, well, how many are there now? Oh, we have about 60 on a Sunday. And I said, dad, in five years, the size of your church has tripled and you think you're somehow failing. And this, you know, while doing all those things you're talking about, Mark, doing the counseling, the premarital counseling and the marrying and the burying and being engaged in the community. And this from a guy who was ⁓ working another job. ⁓ I think you're right. John Williams has a ⁓ big brass piece called Summon the Heroes. You hear it every year during the Summer Olympics. I picture, if there's a line at the pearly gates, probably not right. But I picture you and I standing with our mouths agape as Summon the Heroes is played and they parade. men like my dad passed us and say, fellas, we'll be with you in a minute. We're taking care of the VIPs right now. Mark Christian: Absolutely, that's the way it should be. And I know God doesn't show favorites, but they're my favorites. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Mark, listen, we have time for one more question, but before we wrap up, I want to mention our sponsor once more. The Better Preaching podcast is powered by Great Lakes Christian College, where we're passionate about training the next generation of preachers, youth ministers, worship leaders, and missionaries. That's why our professors aren't just in the classroom Monday through Friday. They're actively engaged in ministries on Sundays too. If you want an education that combines the best classroom and real life experience, You can get more information at glcc.edu. Mark, we have two minutes left. So if you knew this moment right now was your last chance to say something about preachers or preaching to preachers, what would that be? Last words and Testament of Mark Christian. Go. Mark Christian: Let the text win. Let it win in you. Stand underneath it before you ever stand behind the pulpit. And ⁓ be engaged in community with others that sharpen you and hold you to an accountability that allows whatever platform God gives us, allow it to be a stewardship rather than an ownership. And if we do that, I think a lot of the things preachers like us fall into will all melt away and we'll find the protection that we actually need. Frank Weller: That's great stuff, Mark. Listen, we're going to have you back on the podcast sometime down the road. There's just so much more that I want to ask you and we can talk about, but that's it. We're out of time. Hey, I want to thank Mark Christian and our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. And I want to thank you for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching podcast. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.