Transcript

Palace Intrigue · Politix

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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: I will say here for paid subscribers to an audio product,
0:03
SPEAKER_01: what I have been afraid to put on social media,
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SPEAKER_01: which was when this came up,
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SPEAKER_01: I thought to myself.
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Hey,
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everyone,
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you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
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This week,
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we'll talk about Saturday's No Kings rallies across the
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country.
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SPEAKER_00: The good, the bad, the praise, the criticism.
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SPEAKER_00: What, if anything, the movement augurs for the future of the country?
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Then a look at the suddenly combustible Maine Senate Democratic
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primary race and
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SPEAKER_00: the roles gaffes and skeletons play in Trump-era politics.
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SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear the whole conversation,
0:40
SPEAKER_00: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone, welcome to The Politics Podcast.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Boyler.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
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SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
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Have you managed to scrape all the poop that was dropped from
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the sky onto you?
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SPEAKER_01: You know, it was a brown liquid, according to The New York Times.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, I stopped by...
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a sort of No Kings satellite rally on Saturday that happened at
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14th and U.
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SPEAKER_01: Some people kind of,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: pre-rallying before they marched downtown.
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My colleague,
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Helena,
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you know,
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was downtown,
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did a little report for the site.
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SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I mean, I just feel like by all accounts, like, it...
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SPEAKER_01: it went off well.
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SPEAKER_01: Like,
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SPEAKER_01: there was a large number of people turned out,
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SPEAKER_01: there were none of the,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: incidents that the,
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SPEAKER_01: the right had clearly been,
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SPEAKER_01: we talked about this,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: thirsty for some kind of disorder,
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SPEAKER_01: or for the rally to turn out to be a huge bust.
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SPEAKER_01: And it was, it was neither of those things, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: the history books will say that this...
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SPEAKER_01: these rallies,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: permanently altered American politics,
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SPEAKER_01: but it was a large number of people turning out for respectful,
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SPEAKER_01: uh,
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SPEAKER_01: peaceful demonstrations that ultimately led to conservatives,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: pivoting away from their,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: Antifa doomsaying to complaining that,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: the crowd was too much,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: dorky boomers.
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SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's who votes in midterms, and...
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You know,
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I mean,
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it's like that's that's what you want to see ultimately.
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SPEAKER_00: Can I challenge you on one thing?
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Is that not like I don't know if I'm playing devil's advocate
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or if I really believe this.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of torn on the question.
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But obviously it didn't like reverse the trajectory of the
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country or like put
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SPEAKER_00: Trump on permanent defensive.
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SPEAKER_00: But.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was an inflection point, like and time will tell, but but.
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SPEAKER_00: I think a couple of things,
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SPEAKER_00: one that you just observed,
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SPEAKER_00: like this is a rally that is disproportionately comprised of pensioners,
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SPEAKER_00: which is important because they vote,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's important for like a variety of reasons.
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SPEAKER_00: They are also consumers.
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They are also like people who have respect throughout the
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population as like
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SPEAKER_00: the wise ones.
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SPEAKER_00: And if they are saying this is not okay,
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SPEAKER_00: that might echo through the population better than if it was a bunch of
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SPEAKER_00: rabble-rousing young hip people or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: And at the concurrent to the buildup to Saturday,
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you started to see institutional resistance to Trump that just
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was missing at the
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SPEAKER_00: beginning of his term.
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SPEAKER_00: Like the Chamber of Commerce sued him
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over an H-1B visa thing that is like very in the wheelhouse of
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corporate America.
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SPEAKER_00: So not like,
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SPEAKER_00: but on the basis of him being king-like and,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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the law says that the federal government administratively may
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charge enough to
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SPEAKER_00: recoup the expenses that it requires to process all these visas.
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SPEAKER_00: And Trump set that number at like $100,000 and you can't do that, right?
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SPEAKER_00: You just like...
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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And then you see all these universities across the country
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rejecting this compact
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SPEAKER_00: that Trump has used to kind of like carrot stick them into,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: doing like turning their campuses into like
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SPEAKER_00: affirmative action for MAGA.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
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I mean,
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listen,
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I would say that,
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you know— So inflection point rather than turning point.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: although,
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: if you— I think if you really want— I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: we don't know what the future will hold.
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SPEAKER_01: But that it was actually the—
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SPEAKER_01: An effort to bully Jimmy Kimmel off the air,
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: was a significant inflection point for Trump.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that if you look at his approval ratings,
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SPEAKER_01: That,
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SPEAKER_01: along with Liberation Day,
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SPEAKER_01: is,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: one of the only things that has,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: a really,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: meaningful kind of bump that came out there.
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SPEAKER_01: It, I think, sounds silly to, like, morally serious progressives.
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But,
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like,
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that was genuinely one of the most unpopular things that he
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did.
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SPEAKER_01: There was a story in The Times yesterday,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: Hulu and Disney Plus lost a lot of subscribers over that incident.
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SPEAKER_01: And the corporations,
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SPEAKER_01: right,
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SPEAKER_01: which had been tending to bandwagon with Trump for a variety of reasons,
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SPEAKER_01: ultimately like pivoted back around,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: and then Kimmel went back on the air.
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SPEAKER_01: And that led into things like...
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SPEAKER_01: the university is sort of getting their shit together and saying,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: they're not going to collaborate on this compact.
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SPEAKER_01: What I will say,
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SPEAKER_01: though,
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SPEAKER_01: is that the approval rating,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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which had gotten worse for Trump in the wake of Kimmel and the
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whole sort of
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SPEAKER_01: Charlie Kirk,
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SPEAKER_01: Martyrdom Kirk thing,
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SPEAKER_01: has been ticking back in his direction over the past few weeks.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I'm inclined to...
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SPEAKER_01: say,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: nothing has inflected,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: nothing terrible has happened,
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SPEAKER_01: but also nothing amazing has happened.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're, you know, we're waiting to see.
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Republicans have a puncher's chance of winning a gubernatorial
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election in New Jersey.
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SPEAKER_01: Probably won't.
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SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we'll see what happens there.
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SPEAKER_01: Democrats are hoping to win a trifecta in Virginia.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll see what happens there.
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SPEAKER_01: We're, you know...
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SPEAKER_01: It's the whole story of the Trump era is that,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: all this news keeps happening,
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SPEAKER_01: but,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: actual responsiveness to it is,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: fairly muted.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, lots of people coming out in the street, like, that's good.
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SPEAKER_01: That is way better than the alternative.
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SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we just, we still don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I, you know, and so the size of it is large enough
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SPEAKER_00: that I think,
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even though it didn't get as much media play or as much
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prominent media play in
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SPEAKER_00: newspapers and follow-on coverage as I think it deserved,
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is the sort of thing that might not ultimately end up needing
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it because if seven
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million people showed up and another several million people
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wanted to show up,
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SPEAKER_00: but they couldn't,
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SPEAKER_00: and then,
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All of those people have friends and family members who are not
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street protesters,
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SPEAKER_00: but like don't like what's happening in the country.
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SPEAKER_00: It's the sort of thing that,
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SPEAKER_00: And I should add,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: the fact that they dispersed it so widely across the country means that,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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it's going to be damn near close to everyone in the country
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will know somebody who
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attended or who supports the idea that Trump is acting like a
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king and that needs
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SPEAKER_00: to stop.
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SPEAKER_00: And that,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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that has me kind of on the horns of a dilemma because it's also
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coinciding,
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SPEAKER_00: and this,
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SPEAKER_00: I think,
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SPEAKER_00: is just pure coincidence,
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SPEAKER_00: not like with the...
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SPEAKER_00: The university is finally stiffening their spines,
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the Chamber of Commerce deciding that they can actually fight
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this guy on some
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SPEAKER_00: stuff.
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But Trump is doing a – making decisions about the economy that
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are deeply averse to
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SPEAKER_00: many of his own –
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SPEAKER_00: voters, $20 billion bailout followed by more money for Argentina.
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SPEAKER_00: And now I think he's going to,
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SPEAKER_00: he wants to buy beef from Argentina,
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SPEAKER_00: which is pissing off cattle farmers and,
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and obviously like the ongoing contretemps around what's going
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to happen to health
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SPEAKER_00: insurance premiums.
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SPEAKER_00: And so,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: you see there that there's,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: some sort of not quite kingish things that are,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: could tend to drag.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: But in the wake of the actual protests,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: he is doing,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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there's this AI video he put out that we joked about at the top
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or alluded to at
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SPEAKER_00: the top,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: King Donald shits on half of America.
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SPEAKER_00: And then...
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SPEAKER_00: This was actually like very striking to me.
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He,
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like a reporter snapped a picture of the demolition of the East
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wing of the White House.
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Like he's demolishing unilaterally and with like private
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financing the White House
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SPEAKER_00: to build a palace ballroom.
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SPEAKER_00: And...
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SPEAKER_00: You know, you say his approval rating is maybe ticking back up.
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And so if you want to continue dragging it down,
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you're confronted with this old dilemma again.
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Do you pivot back from no kings to the tariffs and bailout for
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Argentina and the
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SPEAKER_00: cattle purchasing or the beef purchases?
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Or do you lean into where the popular energy has finally alit,
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which is on...
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SPEAKER_00: the actual king-like things that he's doing.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't know the, like, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: I like,
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SPEAKER_00: for like,
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and maybe I don't know because normally I'm like very much on
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the side of like,
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SPEAKER_00: this is America.
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SPEAKER_00: People want, care about their freedom.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's clearly like passion around the idea of
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of like freedom,
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democracy,
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et cetera,
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that is not quite so intense on kitchen table issues.
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SPEAKER_00: But for the first time,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe in Donald Trump's whole time in public life,
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SPEAKER_00: the issues seem to be converging where you can really now say,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's not some weird deflection or some weird attempt to pivot,
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that his king-like governing is creating kitchen table problems
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for everyone in
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SPEAKER_00: America.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, hopefully.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just like, I'm not, I don't like want to be
10:44
a huge Debbie Downer in the wake of like a successful protest
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movement that was
10:49
both large scale and peaceful and I think lays the groundwork
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hopefully for more
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SPEAKER_01: demonstrations.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: This is like a proven effective political tactic.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: It went well.
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I think that they erred on the side of holding like a larger
11:03
number of protests to
11:04
SPEAKER_01: sort of maximize the ease of turnout.
11:07
And having succeeded in turnout,
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I hope that next time they will try like a smaller number
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SPEAKER_01: of higher degree of difficulty rallies to,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: show some escalation,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: increase the momentum.
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SPEAKER_01: I just like,
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SPEAKER_01: I want to guard people against complacency,
11:26
SPEAKER_01: which is like,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that Donald Trump's actual behavior
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in calendar year 2025 has been dramatically worse than his
11:35
behavior in 2017.
11:37
I am much more worried than I was eight years ago about the
11:43
actual future of the country.
11:45
He is in much more solid command of the institutions of the
11:49
federal government.
11:50
He is in much more solid command of the institutions of the
11:52
Republican Party.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: You know,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: in 2017,
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SPEAKER_01: if you would ask me,
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SPEAKER_01: what if Trump just starts firing top military commanders,
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SPEAKER_01: which he's technically allowed to do,
12:01
SPEAKER_01: but would be like a wild breach of norms and inappropriate,
12:06
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like,
12:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Republicans in Congress would shit a brick over it.
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SPEAKER_01: The leaks coming out of the top commanders would destroy him, et cetera.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: But like, he's already done that.
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SPEAKER_01: Like that's, it's like not even a story now.
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And the upshot of all of this is that his approval rating is
12:20
about six points higher.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: on day 274 than it was on day 274 of his first term.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: He is very slightly ahead of where Joe Biden was on day 274.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: He's very slightly ahead of where Bill Clinton was on day 274.
12:36
He's behind where Obama and George W.
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Bush and George H.
12:40
W.
12:40
Bush were,
12:41
you know,
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Ronald Reagan.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like
12:44
SPEAKER_01: This is a stirring success.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: But we are looking at, like, real outlier behavior.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And compared to the two most recent presidencies,
12:53
he is more popular than Joe Biden or Donald Trump was at this
12:58
point in his
12:58
SPEAKER_01: presidency.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And that means that,
13:01
SPEAKER_01: like,
13:01
whatever it is we are doing out here is not working as well as
13:06
I would like it to.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, like, the...
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SPEAKER_01: People will say this all the time and be like,
13:12
SPEAKER_01: can you imagine if Joe Biden released an AI video of him taking a dump on
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Republicans?
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I can't.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: I cannot imagine what the reaction to that would have been.
13:22
But I can imagine what the reaction of Donald Trump doing it
13:25
would have been,
13:26
which is like...
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SPEAKER_01: no intra-elite criticism from conservatives,
13:32
some infighting on the left as to whether it's a good idea to
13:34
talk about this or
13:35
SPEAKER_01: not,
13:36
and mostly us moving on because there's like 17 other insane
13:40
things that happen
13:41
SPEAKER_01: like every day of the week.
13:44
And,
13:45
you know,
13:45
it's not that kitchen table issues,
13:48
quote unquote,
13:49
have like a magical power.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: It's that
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Different people care about different things.
13:58
I do think a lot of people who are not that disturbed by Donald
14:03
Trump's day-to-day
14:04
actions were very disturbed by the prospect of Donald Trump and
14:08
the FCC bullying
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Jimmy Kimmel off the air,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: which
14:12
SPEAKER_01: to me is... I don't know.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: I would not personally rate that all that high on my list of,
14:18
SPEAKER_01: like,
14:18
SPEAKER_01: despotic things that Donald Trump has done compared to just,
14:21
SPEAKER_01: like,
14:21
SPEAKER_01: murdering some Venezuelans.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I don't know.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, network TV hosts resonated with people.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Listen to that.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm right back where I started,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: I think,
14:33
in that now I want the health insurance premiums to go up and I
14:37
want Democrats in
14:38
Congress to not say healthcare for a while and instead just
14:43
leap on this Trump
14:44
SPEAKER_00: demolishes White House to build palace thing,
14:47
SPEAKER_00: demand hearings.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: He is destroying the White House.
14:50
There is a civic mythology in America that I don't think is
14:54
very easy to gin up in
14:56
SPEAKER_00: opinion polling because opinion polling is so geared toward issues.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:01
Do we have like a standing White House is not really a quote
15:07
unquote issue,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: but it's the sort of thing that like if
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Like you stopped a random person who's in an information silo
15:14
who has no idea that
15:15
SPEAKER_00: this happened in the middle of corn pone nowhere and said,
15:19
did you know that Donald Trump got $250 million from
15:23
corporations to demolish part
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of the White House so that he could build a palace ballroom
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against the law?
15:30
SPEAKER_00: They'd be like, what the fuck?
15:32
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
15:33
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
15:33
SPEAKER_01: on the flip side,
15:34
SPEAKER_01: and we'll talk about Graham Plattner later,
15:36
SPEAKER_01: but I think is relevant to this,
15:38
is that a point that the left has been making for years now is
15:43
that the American
15:44
SPEAKER_01: people,
15:44
SPEAKER_01: and I don't totally agree with the left's interpretation of this,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: but it's correct as a first-order point,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: is that the American people express
15:54
massive levels of dissatisfaction with the institutional status
15:59
quo of the United States.
16:02
There is a lot of burn-it-down sentiment,
16:05
a lot of interest in rogue outsider figures.
16:10
And there is absolutely a set of people for whom the symbolism
16:15
of Donald Trump is
16:16
literally tearing down the symbols of American civic life does
16:21
resonate very,
16:22
SPEAKER_01: very strongly.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: But I also have a sneaking suspicion that,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: those are the people who realigned a long time ago.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: You know,
16:31
those are the people who could not believe that mocking John
16:35
McCain's wartime
16:36
SPEAKER_01: service didn't destroy Donald Trump.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And that,
16:39
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: there is some kind of a sweet spot in which,
16:44
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:44
SPEAKER_01: you are literally or symbolically,
16:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:47
SPEAKER_01: shitting on the institutions of American civic culture,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: but,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: actually are not enacting policy change that,
16:54
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: meaningfully alters people's lives,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: that seems to work well for Trump.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: That, like, Trump as this symbol of...
17:05
SPEAKER_01: right-wing destruction and,
17:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:07
SPEAKER_01: tearing down of everything that,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: quote-unquote,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: we hold dear,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:13
SPEAKER_01: works okay for him.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: And then a lot of what Democrats have been trying to do since then,
17:18
SPEAKER_01: and again,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: not Democrats like me,
17:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: left-wing Democrats who hate me,
17:23
SPEAKER_01: a lot of what they've been trying to do is,
17:25
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:25
SPEAKER_01: capture some of that,
17:27
SPEAKER_01: uh,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: negative energy,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:31
and like complaining that like Kamala Harris was too much of an
17:36
institutionalist
17:37
SPEAKER_01: and a status quo defender.
17:39
And I like,
17:39
look at how the Cheney family likes me,
17:42
you know,
17:43
that kind of thing.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I just don't like, I just don't know.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Like,
17:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm,
17:48
I,
17:48
I'm way more comfortable with these like Argentina attacks as a
17:51
political thing,
17:53
SPEAKER_01: because
17:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like kind of bad on the merits.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: And it is kind of king-ish.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: It is kind of king-ish.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: It's king-ish.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: But it also has this air of like,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: suppose the Argentina swap credit facility was a really good idea.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Like,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: if the top technocrats,
18:12
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:12
SPEAKER_01: if my friends who worked in the Obama FSOC were telling me...
18:16
SPEAKER_01: To be clear,
18:16
SPEAKER_01: they are not telling me this,
18:18
SPEAKER_01: but sometimes they do.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: They'd be like,
18:19
SPEAKER_01: listen,
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Matt,
18:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:21
I know it sounds bad politically to be offering a $40 billion
18:24
bailout to Argentina
18:26
SPEAKER_01: to help them maintain their overvalued currency,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: but,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: if you really understand the financial interconnections,
18:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:31
SPEAKER_01: you'll see that,
18:32
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:33
SPEAKER_01: ultimately,
18:33
SPEAKER_01: this makes people better off.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, man, you're right.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: That is a hard sell politically.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
18:39
It's just really hard to persuade people that a bailout of a
18:44
foreign government for
18:45
the sake of maintaining some kind of complicated market dynamic
18:49
is in the American
18:49
SPEAKER_01: people's interests.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: And in this case, if you look at it, there is no good argument for that.
18:54
It is just that Donald Trump likes Javier Mille and wants him
18:59
to succeed in his
19:00
SPEAKER_01: domestic politics.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: And, you know...
19:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not like,
19:06
SPEAKER_01: it's not like literally true that like the price of,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: your cost of living is going up because Trump did this swap facility,
19:14
SPEAKER_01: but it is very resonant of like,
19:18
SPEAKER_01: These fucking guys, you know what I mean?
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Like nefarious global elites,
19:24
SPEAKER_01: hedge fund managers you don't understand,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: currency traders you don't understand,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: weird shit intersecting with unilateralism.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Like he hasn't gone to Congress to ask for this.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: He's not doing this to any kind of normal channel.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: He's just given money away to a guy who he happens to like.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: And then he's saying,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: oh,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: and you know,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: maybe we'll like bring in some Argentine beef to reduce this thing.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And he's pissing off his farm allies and so on and so forth.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, if the whole, if the Argentina saga was bigger,
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:56
Like if it like substantively was like five times as big a
19:59
deal,
20:00
I'd be like,
20:00
this is great.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: It's going to crush him.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's like it's still bad.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: It's OK.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: OK, look, there's definitely something to what you're saying.
20:07
And I feel like it makes it sound to me like it is mission
20:10
critical for Democrats
20:11
to make it known to the farmers that Trump is building a
20:15
ballroom for himself.
20:18
And like really make a connection for the people suffering
20:21
because of his policy
20:22
SPEAKER_00: decisions to the like,
20:24
SPEAKER_00: what is it all for?
20:25
SPEAKER_00: It's for his self-glorification and the enrichment of his friends.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: And,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: I wrote a piece very early,
20:31
SPEAKER_00: maybe even before inauguration,
20:32
SPEAKER_00: called something like,
20:34
SPEAKER_00: The New Gilded Age Will Be Livestreamed.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: But I was actually,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I had no idea that he was going to try to build a ballroom for himself.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking, he's going to, like, loot the country, immiserate people.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Also,
20:45
he's going to spend a lot of time doing these fancy events at
20:48
Mar-a-Lago with,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: the oligarchs,
20:50
and they're all going to snap pictures of each other and post
20:52
them to the Grams.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And, like, this split screen is going to...
20:56
SPEAKER_00: reach people who are not going to be happy about it.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And then like nine months in,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: that's kind of happening,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: but like the connection is missing and we can make the connection.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: and,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: and I think that like,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: it's,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: it's doable without being like,
21:12
it's very important that we have a white house because I agree
21:16
with you that if
21:16
SPEAKER_00: like the ghost of Jimmy Carter was,
21:18
returned to prominence in America and became a cult-like figure
21:23
the way Donald Trump is.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And he said,
21:25
we're gonna tear down the White House because the president
21:29
should live in a humble
21:30
SPEAKER_00: home.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: And then he rebuilt a houses,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: like a Habitat for Humanity style house where the White House used to be.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like, the president's not gonna have servants.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: The president's not gonna, the president's gonna cook his own food.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Like that might,
21:45
SPEAKER_00: That might accomplish sort of what you're talking about,
21:48
which is like not not pissing off the dying institutionalists
21:53
while also really
21:54
SPEAKER_00: impressing the people who do want to tear it all down.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: But the fact that it's for like a gilded palace.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: is it's symbolic in a way that mooshes all of these things together.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And this is maybe not a fully fleshed out idea,
22:14
but Democrats are like rending garments about whether they blew
22:19
it in 2024 by
22:20
SPEAKER_00: talking about democracy too much or using the word democracy.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Is democracy really a process thing that people don't really care about?
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And this is intuitively incorrect to me.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: I think people understand that democracy means you have a vote,
22:35
and that means that it's a force equalizer between regular
22:40
people and powerful
22:41
SPEAKER_00: people,
22:42
SPEAKER_00: and that there are problems with U.S.
22:43
democracy where powerful people make it so our votes don't
22:47
really count for very
22:48
SPEAKER_00: much,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: and we should fix that,
22:49
SPEAKER_00: but you don't want to do away with the notion of democracy,
22:52
SPEAKER_00: right?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: But...
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe like it's the satellite issues around democracy,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: like freedom,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: like no kings,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: like this idea that if you don't have a democracy,
23:04
that means someone is ruling and someone's a subject and you
23:08
don't like you're not
23:08
SPEAKER_00: actually a free person.
23:11
that,
23:13
like,
23:13
that's where the galvanizing power in these kind of critiques
23:18
are.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Not in the,
23:19
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: we got to preserve our institutions,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: but in a,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: this guy wants,
23:23
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:23
SPEAKER_00: doesn't give a shit about you and will crush you.
23:25
And by the time you realize it,
23:26
you won't have any power left to stop him.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: And,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: that,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: I think that is starting to gurgle to the surface in a way that I think,
23:34
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:34
SPEAKER_00: might actually finally,
23:36
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:37
prove once and for all that in this grand fight between kitchen
23:40
table issues and
23:41
SPEAKER_00: freedom and democracy appeals,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:44
SPEAKER_00: it really is the,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: the core,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: what kind of people are we thing that will actually prevail.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I just want to throw out there not even a take on kitchen table issues,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: but that...
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I think there's going to be some new research coming out about this soon,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: trying to explore this,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: but...
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Sounds like you got some embargoed material.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: People have...
24:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm not 100% sure,
24:11
but people seem to conceptualize Democrats adhering to
24:19
unpopular views on cultural
24:22
SPEAKER_01: issues as a form of corruption or institutional subversion.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: You know,
24:32
and like part of Trump's success in getting people to embrace a
24:41
very destructive
24:43
brand of politics is this idea that the institutions of
24:48
American society had
24:52
SPEAKER_01: themselves become oppressive.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, and, like, don't care about what you care about.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe not what you care about, Brian, but, like,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: what many people care about,
25:06
that there's this kind of grinding automaticity to how they
25:12
were proceeding and
25:13
SPEAKER_01: that we need this disruption.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And so,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: then when it's like,
25:19
SPEAKER_01: when Trump's in place and it's like,
25:21
SPEAKER_01: oh,
25:22
some late night talk show host who you have like vaguely warm
25:25
feelings about is
25:26
SPEAKER_01: kicked off the air,
25:27
SPEAKER_01: like there is backlash to that,
25:29
SPEAKER_01: right?
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a first order thing.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: And so,
25:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:33
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you that,
25:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:35
when these things converge and it's like Trump through some
25:40
lawless unilateralism,
25:42
SPEAKER_01: like makes the stock market crash.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Or like,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: whatever else,
25:47
SPEAKER_01: then it's like,
25:47
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: like people get it and you sort of draw the lines there.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: But there's just like a lot of skepticism that.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: experts and institutions, like, per se, are good, um, or, or valuable.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: You know,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:06
SPEAKER_01: that we want,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: a CDC that is staffed with competent professionals,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: um,
26:12
SPEAKER_01: to make decisions about things.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, like, all that has been called into question for a lot of people.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: And,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: it's just,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: it...
26:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: again,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:22
SPEAKER_00: people,
26:22
SPEAKER_00: there's a certain...
26:23
SPEAKER_00: I,
26:23
SPEAKER_00: I,
26:23
SPEAKER_00: I...
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I want to take a break and sort of flip to the Plattner conversation,
26:31
SPEAKER_01: because,
26:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:32
SPEAKER_01: I think when you reframe this differently,
26:34
SPEAKER_01: it becomes something that a lot of liberals,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: really get and are enthusiastic about.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: that's why there is so much desire to,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: find outsider candidates,
26:45
SPEAKER_01: people with different kinds of vibes,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: to kind of dismiss concerns that,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Maybe this guy said some inappropriate shit on Reddit, right?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: That it's like, we're looking for our own, you know, disruptors, right?
27:02
Because there's a widespread belief that people are in some
27:06
sense looking for that.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: I have a direct response to what you said.
27:11
I'll offer it after the jump,
27:13
and then we'll pivot from there into what happened in Maine.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear that part of the conversation,
27:18
SPEAKER_00: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.