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The team meticulously tracking ICE deportations to third countries · This Week On ICE

0:06
The overall community has to be okay and we know that the
0:10
presence of ICE does not
0:12
SPEAKER_00: permit people to be okay.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Our 2,000 members are fighting back and they're saying a very,
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very clear message and we need an agreement that states that
0:24
ICE will have no role
0:26
SPEAKER_00: in this World Cup.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to This Week On ICE for May 22, 2026.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm Kelly Kimball.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Ben Camacho.
0:40
Who you just heard is Ada Briseño,
0:42
the co-president of Unite Here Local 11 in Los Angeles.
0:46
She's advocating for workers' rights as 2,000 SoFi Stadium
0:50
workers threaten a
0:51
SPEAKER_01: strike over the deployment of ICE agents at the upcoming World Cup.
0:55
I cannot believe that the World Cup games are going to start in
0:58
just a few days.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we've been talking about the World Cup forever.
1:02
and it seems like it's going to be the next big arena when it
1:06
comes to ICE and
1:08
SPEAKER_02: potential ICE arrests.
1:10
And,
1:10
you know,
1:10
it leads me to what we're going to talk about during this
1:14
episode.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Ben,
1:15
you've gathered a few of the latest news stories about ICE's
1:18
plans during the World
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Cup.
1:21
You're going to tell us not only about why and how ICE is
1:25
targeting the matches across the U.S.,
1:28
SPEAKER_02: but also about the local response and resistance to ICE's presence.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: After we talk about ICE and soccer,
1:36
Kelly will break down a recent report published this week by
1:39
the Brookings
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Institute,
1:40
which suggests that over 100,000 children have been separated
1:44
from their parents
1:44
SPEAKER_01: since the start of Trump's second term,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: with roughly three quarters of those children likely U.S.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: citizens.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: And after the break,
1:54
we have an exclusive interview with immigration historian and
1:57
researcher Yael
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Shaker,
1:59
whose team at Refugees International has been closely tracking
2:03
every single
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SPEAKER_02: agreement the U.S.
2:04
government has made with foreign countries to expand its
2:07
network of third-country
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SPEAKER_02: deportations.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: During the conversation,
2:11
Yael dispels the theory that third-country deportations are a
2:15
quote-unquote mass
2:16
SPEAKER_02: deportation scheme for the Trump administration.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: Instead,
2:21
The way that she describes it is that it's a growing web of
2:24
agreements that are
2:25
SPEAKER_02: being used for something far more nuanced and far more nefarious.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, lots to discuss.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Stick with us, guys.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: Ben, no pun intended here, but let's have you kick off the show.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: The FIFA World Cup is said to be the biggest in history.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: It spans Canada, the United States, and Mexico.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: It's starting on June 11, in just a few days.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: From what you've found,
2:54
has there been any indication as to what role ICE will have in
2:58
these matches across
2:59
SPEAKER_02: the United States?
3:01
SPEAKER_01: So there's been a lot of back and forth on this.
3:04
DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen said this week that ICE agents
3:09
and Homeland
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Security Investigators,
3:10
SPEAKER_01: that's HSI,
3:12
SPEAKER_01: will be out there every day during the World Cup.
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SPEAKER_01: And that runs from June
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SPEAKER_01: June 11th through July 19th,
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SPEAKER_01: so a little over a month across 16 stadiums in three different countries,
3:23
SPEAKER_01: U.S.,
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SPEAKER_01: Canada,
3:24
SPEAKER_01: and Mexico.
3:25
What they're saying publicly is that they're going to be
3:27
focusing on human
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SPEAKER_01: trafficking,
3:30
SPEAKER_01: drug smuggling,
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SPEAKER_01: and...
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SPEAKER_01: counterfeit tickets and merchandise.
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SPEAKER_01: Mullen went on to say that when you have crowds this big,
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SPEAKER_01: criminal activities follow,
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SPEAKER_01: which when I hear that,
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SPEAKER_01: that just means where there's people,
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SPEAKER_01: there's crime,
3:46
SPEAKER_01: so we need to be there.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Do what you will with that.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: Even then, though, the picture is murkier than that framing suggests.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: ICE is offering
3:55
its agents to local police departments and other federal
3:59
agencies to provide,
4:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:01
SPEAKER_01: that extra security around stadium perimeters and at stadiums.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: DHS says that international visitors who are legally in the U.S.,
4:09
SPEAKER_01: quote,
4:10
SPEAKER_01: have nothing to worry about,
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SPEAKER_01: end quote.
4:13
but this is kind of like the key thing right ICE has not been
4:18
expressly prohibited
4:20
there hasn't been a formal policy that prevents them from
4:24
making arrests at these
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matches there hasn't been any guidance that went out inside the
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agency that
4:30
instructed agents to essentially not arrest people because
4:34
they're not in the
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country legally or whatever other reason and whatever
4:39
reassurances folks are being
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SPEAKER_01: given
4:42
There's no formal policy behind it to kind of give it that
4:45
backbone,
4:46
right?
4:47
What does this mean for immigrants living in these cities or
4:50
those who want to
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SPEAKER_02: attend these matches?
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SPEAKER_01: The reality on the ground is that the fear is already here.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: The fear has been here for over a year at this point, right?
4:59
SPEAKER_01: This is just increasing that.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And it's already doing damage on a local level.
5:04
But it's also like gained the attention of the international
5:07
community,
5:07
right?
5:08
we saw that on the local level workers at the SoFi Stadium
5:14
which is one of the
5:14
stadiums where one of these events are going to be at where one
5:17
of the games are
5:18
going to be at they're essentially threatening to strike if ICE
5:22
shows up right this
5:23
is a huge concern for safety for Angelenos and as we all heard
5:30
Ada Briseño talking
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SPEAKER_01: about it's why people are looking to strike and threatening to strike
5:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
5:38
and I'd actually like to pull up a piece of that conversation
5:41
that I had with Ada
5:42
SPEAKER_02: and play it for us here today.
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I think the fact that there are 2,000 SoFi workers that are
5:49
poised to protest
5:50
SPEAKER_02: should there be ICE presence at SoFi Stadium is really significant.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: So let's go ahead and hear what Ada has to say about that.
5:57
We are in the midst of contract negotiations where we have
6:00
repeatedly,
6:01
for a long time,
6:03
have been very clear that we do not want ICE anywhere near and
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have no place in the
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SPEAKER_00: World Cup and near our members.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: We're bargaining in good faith,
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but we have no commitments from them that they will have no
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role in the World Cup
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SPEAKER_00: and we're only three weeks away.
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So we see a strike looming for the World Cup as we see people
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from around the world
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SPEAKER_00: coming into Los Angeles.
6:30
So has there been any opposition from community members or
6:35
organizations around these plans?
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
6:39
specifically the union that is organizing around this here in
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LA is Unite Here
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Local 11 that ADA is the co-president of.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Aside from them,
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Amnesty International has described this whole situation as the
6:53
US facing a human
6:55
SPEAKER_01: rights emergency ahead of the tournament.
6:57
I'm essentially saying that putting ICE on the ground is a
7:00
chilling threat to fans.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: and even players themselves, right?
7:04
Another thing too that's notable that I found was that Human
7:07
Rights Watch has
7:09
SPEAKER_01: called for an ICE truce,
7:11
SPEAKER_01: which is kind of like the Olympic truce tradition,
7:14
SPEAKER_01: right?
7:14
Like we can think back to when like major wars have been
7:17
happening and like they
7:18
SPEAKER_01: call this truce so that they can have these Olympics.
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And so Human Rights Watch is essentially calling on FIFA and
7:24
the government to find
7:27
SPEAKER_01: this truce in this moment.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: Really important stuff, Ben.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for looking into it for us.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: So,
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Kelly,
7:35
SPEAKER_01: turning to you,
7:36
you're going to talk about family separations and the impact
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it's had on children.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Earlier this week,
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the Brookings Institute published a report claiming that the
7:45
scale of ICE-related
7:47
family separations seen today far eclipses that of the first
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Trump administration's
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SPEAKER_01: zero tolerance policy in 2018.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us what you found out?
7:57
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
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What surprises me so much about this Brookings Institution
8:02
report is just how
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SPEAKER_02: comprehensive it is.
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It really stands alone in the data that it has surfaced and the
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ways in which it
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looks at the broad and multifaceted impact on families that
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separations have had.
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SPEAKER_02: And before I even get into what Brookings has found,
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SPEAKER_02: I want to draw a comparison,
8:23
SPEAKER_02: a really important comparison between
8:25
SPEAKER_02: between Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0.
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SPEAKER_02: So let's go back to 2018, the zero tolerance policy.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: During the first Trump administration,
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about 5,500 children were separated from their parents
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immediately after crossing
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SPEAKER_02: the southern border.
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SPEAKER_02: At the time, that was a groundbreaking investigation.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: It was done by The Atlantic.
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SPEAKER_02: It was conducted by an incredible reporter named Caitlin Dickerson.
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SPEAKER_02: The piece was titled, quote, We Need to Take Away Children.
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SPEAKER_02: At the time,
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5,500 children being separated by their families as a method of
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an immigration
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SPEAKER_02: agenda,
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SPEAKER_02: that was egregious.
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SPEAKER_02: That was completely unprecedented.
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SPEAKER_02: It was almost unheard of, unthinkable.
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SPEAKER_02: But let me take us now to the Brookings analysis.
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It was published this week,
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and it indicates that more than 100,000 children
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SPEAKER_02: have been separated from their parents,
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SPEAKER_02: separated through detentions or deportations,
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SPEAKER_02: both of them combined.
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SPEAKER_02: That number is since the start of the second Trump administration,
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SPEAKER_02: January 2025,
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SPEAKER_02: and we have three more years to go.
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Of these 100,000 children,
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roughly three quarters of them are likely US citizens.
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SPEAKER_02: So let me link this to other reports that have come out this week.
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There is a ProPublica study done in March that basically said
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that ICE arrests of
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SPEAKER_02: mothers over the first seven months,
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SPEAKER_02: they have found that Trump has deported mothers of U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: citizens at four times the rate of the Joe Biden administration.
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SPEAKER_03: Wow.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: And if we're drawing these comparisons between Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0,
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SPEAKER_02: there is a key difference here.
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SPEAKER_02: What Caitlin Dickerson found
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SPEAKER_02: is that they were trying to
10:39
is a way to coerce immigrants and asylum seekers to leave the
10:47
U.S.
10:48
by their own accord.
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SPEAKER_02: And in several cases,
10:51
immigration officials have even retaliated against immigrants
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who have challenged
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SPEAKER_02: deportation orders by forcibly separating them from their children.
11:02
And the same Guardian investigation that I'm referencing here,
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they found that officials
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then misclassified these children as quote unquote
11:10
unaccompanied minors before
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SPEAKER_02: placing them in government run shelters or foster care.
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So the weapon that was articulated during the first Trump
11:21
administration is now
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SPEAKER_02: being wielded at full force during the second Trump administration.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: My gosh,
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SPEAKER_01: that's I have no words for that,
11:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: to go from I think the first number did you say was 5000 children?
11:37
SPEAKER_02: 5,500.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: To 100,000.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really bleak, infuriating, really.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me how all of this has been impacting immigrant families?
11:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
11:49
And there are two parts to my answer to how this is impacting
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immigrant families.
11:54
And I'm going to take it to one particular measure that the
11:58
Trump administration has instituted.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: So earlier this year, the Trump administration...
12:03
revised a key document advising how ICE officers should
12:07
interact with parents and
12:10
in that document that they revised their directive was to ask
12:14
authorities to remove
12:16
all mentions of the word humane so that is a fact this is
12:20
what's happening in
12:21
family separations right now of the family separations that
12:23
have occurred during
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Trump 2.0
12:26
about 36.5% of children that have been separated from their
12:31
families have been
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SPEAKER_02: under the age of six.
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SPEAKER_02: An additional 36% are between the ages of six and 12.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: So these are children that really need their guardians.
12:41
The New York Times ended up reporting on this Brookings
12:43
Institution report.
12:45
They interviewed a series of advocates,
12:47
social workers,
12:47
lawyers about this.
12:49
And here's what they found is that these children that are
12:51
separated from their parents
12:53
surprisingly only a small fraction of these children end up in
12:57
the foster care
12:58
system or similar arrangements the overwhelming majority stay
13:02
with friends and
13:02
family who don't have a legal obligation to care for these
13:06
children so these
13:07
friends and family they don't have the proper documentation
13:10
most of the time
13:10
because families were separated so swiftly and they didn't
13:13
prepare for that ahead
13:15
of time many of these friends and family have children of their
13:18
own that they're
13:19
SPEAKER_02: already caring for
13:21
So the other part of this is just how difficult it is to track
13:25
this data.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: The U.S.
13:26
government doesn't keep data on how many children end up being
13:30
separated from
13:32
SPEAKER_02: parents that are detained or deported,
13:34
and they don't track what becomes of children who are separated
13:38
by a detained
13:39
SPEAKER_02: parent.
13:40
Brookings estimates that about 22,000 children are left without
13:44
any parent at any
13:46
SPEAKER_02: point during a detention or deportation,
13:48
SPEAKER_02: and they
13:49
assumed through their data that about 5% or 1,000 children have
13:55
received services
13:56
SPEAKER_02: from the child welfare system,
13:58
SPEAKER_02: only 5%.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: So that's like how they're being physically supported.
14:01
But I also want to talk about the mental toll,
14:04
the emotional toll of this.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: And for that, I turned to an NPR report that came out a few days ago.
14:12
They shared concrete data from a primary care clinic in Los
14:17
Angeles called Zocalo Health.
14:19
Zocalo Health's data shows that there has been a sharp rise in
14:22
anxiety and
14:23
SPEAKER_02: depression and suicidal thoughts among immigrant families.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: For all of these reasons and pressure points that we've been sharing,
14:30
over half of the patients they screened in this report
14:34
demonstrated severe anxiety
14:35
SPEAKER_02: interfering with their daily life.
14:38
Nearly three-quarters were experiencing depression that made
14:40
getting through a
14:41
SPEAKER_02: typical day a struggle,
14:42
and one in eight individuals they surveyed were struggling with
14:46
thoughts of
14:46
SPEAKER_02: suicide.
14:48
What I really appreciate about this NPR report is that there
14:52
are multiple woven
14:54
struggles happening here with the immigrant experience is that
14:58
there is a compound
14:59
SPEAKER_03: effect of trauma when you're an immigrant.
15:01
You're not only facing the current pressures of will I get
15:06
arrested by ICE?
15:07
SPEAKER_02: Will I get separated from my child?
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Will my child have somebody caring for them?
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Will I get deported?
15:13
SPEAKER_02: They're also still reckoning, many of them,
15:16
with the trauma of having to leave their country to begin with
15:19
and with the trauma
15:19
SPEAKER_02: of having to go through the experience of making it in this country.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for all of those updates, Kelly.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad that you looked into this really important stuff there.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: We're going to take a quick break.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: When we come back,
15:34
we're going to share an interview Kelly had with Refugee
15:37
International's Yael
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Shocker.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, Ben Camacho here.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Today,
15:48
SPEAKER_01: independent journalism is in the middle of a renaissance,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: with over one-third of journalists now working outside traditional media,
15:56
driven by layoffs at legacy outlets and a passion and readiness
15:59
to fill key
16:00
SPEAKER_01: coverage gaps.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what we are doing with This Week On ICE.
16:05
Kelly and Matt founded this show because they saw the need to
16:08
contextualize the
16:09
SPEAKER_01: cascade of headlines about ICE.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: But we need your help.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: By sharing this podcast with others,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: giving the show a 5-star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify,
16:19
SPEAKER_01: and pledging your support via Substack,
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you would help This Week On ICE reach even more people and help
16:24
our small but
16:25
mighty team of three deepen the analysis and original reporting
16:29
that goes into this
16:30
SPEAKER_01: show.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm here with Yael Shaker,
16:46
SPEAKER_02: who is the Director of the Americas and Europe at Refugees International.
16:51
She and her team at Refugees International worked with Human
16:54
Rights First to launch
16:55
SPEAKER_02: the Third Country Deportation Tracker.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: This tracker closely monitors the web of formal bilateral agreements and
17:02
behind-the-scenes deals that send asylum seekers and other
17:05
immigrants to countries
17:06
in which they have no ties and where many are subject to grave
17:09
mistreatment,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: including arbitrary detention,
17:12
SPEAKER_02: torture,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: or returned to danger in the very countries they once fled.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: Prior to joining Refugees International,
17:19
Yael researched the relationship between immigration and
17:21
refugee policy for her
17:23
forthcoming book on the history of asylum in the United States
17:27
since the late 19th
17:28
SPEAKER_02: century.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: She teaches at the University of Connecticut, among other places.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Yael, welcome to the show and thank you for being here.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for having me.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: It's a pleasure.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: I would love to get started and jump right in.
17:41
What are you tracking right now through the Third Country
17:44
Deportation Tracker?
17:46
SPEAKER_03: Back in late 2025,
17:48
SPEAKER_03: we launched this deportation watch trackers called it's at
17:52
SPEAKER_03: thirdcountrydeportationwatch.org.
17:55
It's a website that basically charts the now over 30 agreements
18:01
that bilateral
18:02
agreements that the Trump administration has signed with other
18:05
countries to send
18:07
SPEAKER_03: This Week On ICE
18:27
What's dramatically different about this Trump administration
18:30
is just the extent of
18:31
SPEAKER_03: these arrangements.
18:32
There was just one that was implemented during the first Trump
18:35
administration with Guatemala.
18:38
This Trump administration has,
18:39
as I said,
18:40
implemented 30 and more coming down the pike.
18:43
SPEAKER_03: And so we decided not to necessarily just write a report about one
18:47
place where immigrants were sent but to actually keep it like a
18:51
living website that
18:52
devotes a country page to each arrangement with each of the
18:56
countries with which
18:57
the Trump administration has signed it tells stories of the
18:59
migrants who have been
19:00
transferred under these arrangements includes legal documents
19:04
and resources
19:04
especially for attorneys whose clients have been subject to
19:07
this including
19:08
SPEAKER_03: litigation
19:09
both in the United States to sort of push back against these
19:12
arrangements and
19:13
litigation in other countries actually as well where people are
19:17
being sent.
19:18
SPEAKER_03: The arrangements are various.
19:21
During the first Trump administration there was only one type
19:23
of agreement that was
19:24
SPEAKER_03: made which was to send
19:26
SPEAKER_03: asylum seekers who came to the border who had just arrived,
19:31
SPEAKER_03: rather than allow them to seek asylum in the United States,
19:34
the Trump administration sent mostly Hondurans and Salvadorans
19:37
to Guatemala to seek
19:39
SPEAKER_03: asylum there.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: It was an asylum cooperative agreement.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: This Trump administration has a few of those with Guatemala again,
19:47
SPEAKER_03: with Honduras,
19:48
SPEAKER_03: with Uganda,
19:49
SPEAKER_03: so it's expanded it to Africa beyond Latin America.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: and a couple of other ones in Latin America as well.
19:56
But it also has another kind of agreement which it didn't have
20:00
during the first
20:00
SPEAKER_03: Trump administration,
20:01
which is just to send third country nationals to another
20:04
country where they don't
20:05
SPEAKER_03: have access to the asylum system.
20:08
basically used as sort of a transfer place where sometimes
20:12
people are detained not
20:14
for a crime but just because they're subject to these
20:16
agreements so arbitrarily
20:18
detained in some of these places and most of them are actually
20:22
then repatriated to
20:23
their home country and the reason that this is so problematic
20:26
is because many of
20:27
SPEAKER_03: the people sent
20:28
SPEAKER_03: under these other agreements.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: And we have one with the Democratic Republic of Congo,
20:32
SPEAKER_03: for example,
20:33
SPEAKER_03: with Ghana,
20:35
SPEAKER_03: with Eswatini,
20:36
SPEAKER_03: with South Sudan,
20:37
SPEAKER_03: with Equatorial Guinea,
20:39
SPEAKER_03: Cameroon.
20:39
SPEAKER_03: Sorry, the list goes on.
20:42
Many of these folks have been granted protection in the United
20:48
States by an immigration judge.
20:49
SPEAKER_03: They have been found to be refugees.
20:52
that can't be returned to their home countries or they have
20:54
been found that they
20:55
would be tortured under the Convention Against Torture of sent
20:57
to their home
20:58
SPEAKER_03: country.
20:58
SPEAKER_03: So they haven't been able to, they can't be sent to their home country.
21:01
So they are sent to these third countries where I said some
21:04
places they're detained.
21:05
SPEAKER_03: But for the most part,
21:06
these countries just think of themselves as transit countries
21:10
from which people are
21:11
SPEAKER_03: repatriated.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: So by sending them to these third countries,
21:14
the Trump administration is also sort of undermining the
21:16
protection that they
21:17
SPEAKER_03: receive not to be sent to their home countries.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: because that's what is ending up happening to many of the people.
21:23
SPEAKER_03: They're basically,
21:24
it's just sort of a layover in these third countries and that
21:27
sort of undermines
21:28
the protections under refugee law and the convention against
21:32
torture and the other
21:33
countries who have signed these agreements are complicit in
21:36
that undermining.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: That's definitely a key word, the undermining of protections.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: And so can we say that these are illegal?
21:45
SPEAKER_02: Can we describe this as human trafficking?
21:47
Where is the line that we're at right now in terms of what's
21:50
happening here?
21:53
SPEAKER_03: Technically,
21:54
SPEAKER_03: under international law,
21:56
SPEAKER_03: asylum cooperative agreements where you send an asylum seeker
22:00
to another country to seek asylum in a safe country where
22:03
they'll have a full and
22:04
SPEAKER_03: fair access to an asylum procedure.
22:06
SPEAKER_03: That's technically legal.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately,
22:09
many of the countries with which the United States has signed
22:12
these asylum
22:13
cooperative agreements do not have a full and fair asylum
22:16
system where they can
22:17
SPEAKER_03: seek asylum.
22:19
SPEAKER_03: People don't have any ties there.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: They don't speak the language.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: They won't be able to integrate and stay.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: Many of the people
22:26
Unlike during the first Trump administration when the targets
22:29
of these asylum
22:30
SPEAKER_03: cooperative agreements were people coming to the border,
22:33
this time they're people who have been in the United States for
22:36
quite a while and
22:37
SPEAKER_03: have their asylum claims in the immigration court.
22:40
So what these deals are really about are sort of clearing the
22:43
immigration court of cases.
22:45
People are waiting or are coming to the immigration court for a
22:48
hearing on the
22:48
SPEAKER_03: merits of their claim.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: They've been in the United
22:49
SPEAKER_03: is a
23:10
SPEAKER_03: It's basically depriving people of their day in court,
23:13
SPEAKER_03: if that makes sense,
23:14
SPEAKER_03: of their asylum procedures that they're having here.
23:17
SPEAKER_03: And then for the people who have been granted protection,
23:19
SPEAKER_03: who are being sent under those other agreements that I mentioned,
23:23
SPEAKER_03: where they're not asylum seekers,
23:25
SPEAKER_03: but they have been granted already protection,
23:27
SPEAKER_03: I do think it could be considered a form of trafficking.
23:31
I mean,
23:32
technically,
23:32
the way things are,
23:33
the Immigration and Nationality Act does give
23:37
SPEAKER_03: the U.S.
23:38
SPEAKER_03: government,
23:39
the authority to send a person who cannot be returned to their
23:42
home country to an
23:43
SPEAKER_03: alternative country.
23:45
SPEAKER_03: The problem is,
23:46
SPEAKER_03: is that you really have to give people a chance to say,
23:50
SPEAKER_03: like,
23:50
SPEAKER_03: you know what,
23:52
SPEAKER_03: I can't be sent there.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: I can't be sent there because I won't be secure there.
23:56
SPEAKER_03: And I may actually be sent back to my home country.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: And that
24:00
process of giving people a chance to contest the ability to be
24:05
sent to a random
24:07
SPEAKER_03: country is really what's at stake here.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: To a certain extent, there's a procedural problem.
24:14
The US government is spiriting people out of the country and
24:17
rapidly deporting them
24:18
SPEAKER_03: before they get that chance to contest.
24:22
I do think there's also a problem whereby the obligation not to
24:27
send somebody back
24:29
to harm is sort of being outsourced to another country and once
24:34
people are in that
24:35
SPEAKER_03: third country the U.S.
24:36
sort of wipes its hands of any obligations towards them and so
24:41
it's a way of them
24:41
getting around the obligation not to send somebody back to harm
24:45
by saying yep
24:46
SPEAKER_03: once out of our territory, it's not our problem.
24:49
So it gets a little bit beyond immigration enforcement and
24:52
towards sort of what the
24:52
way the State Department is sort of thinking about its
24:55
relationship with other
24:56
countries and its relationship with international law and the
24:59
system of protection
25:00
SPEAKER_03: globally.
25:01
They really want to emphasize that there's no such thing as
25:05
permanent refugee protection.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: And so if somebody has been granted that protection in the United States,
25:11
the idea is they've been granted just protection against
25:14
returns to their home
25:15
SPEAKER_03: country,
25:16
SPEAKER_03: administration doesn't care where they're sent otherwise.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: So basically just sending them out into the world in orbit,
25:24
SPEAKER_03: not necessarily to a place where they can actually find refuge,
25:28
SPEAKER_03: where they can actually find safety.
25:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this was a problem like fundamental to
25:36
system of international migration and refugee protection years
25:40
and years ago when
25:40
SPEAKER_03: it was first established,
25:42
SPEAKER_03: this idea that you just don't send refugees in orbit.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: The whole point was to solve the problem of displacement, right?
25:48
SPEAKER_03: If people were tortured or
25:52
SPEAKER_03: subject to persecution and they fled their home country.
25:55
SPEAKER_03: The goal of the system was to find a place where they could stay safely.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: And what this administration is basically saying is like,
26:02
SPEAKER_03: the best we can do for people is temporary protection,
26:04
SPEAKER_03: but then we'll just send them into orbit.
26:06
SPEAKER_03: And once they're out
26:07
of our country we don't care and there really does seem this
26:10
idea of not caring
26:11
about what happens to people completely and desiring to
26:15
basically rid the United
26:17
SPEAKER_03: States of immigrants.
26:19
This whole third country agreement project is being paid for in
26:24
part by the
26:25
SPEAKER_03: Department of State money
26:27
which is paying countries to accept these third country
26:31
nationals and it's part of
26:32
the Office of Remigration in the State Department which is
26:35
giving money to these
26:36
SPEAKER_03: countries.
26:36
So really needs to be seen in those terms as an effort to sort
26:40
of rid the United
26:41
SPEAKER_03: States of certain people and make all protection temporary at best.
26:46
you recently provided or your team recently provided an update
26:50
on this tracker at
26:51
the beginning of this year or at the beginning of this month
26:54
rather what were the
26:55
SPEAKER_02: updates that you had provided the tracker?
26:59
Yeah so some of one of them I already mentioned just that
27:02
there's more than 30
27:03
countries with which the United States has signed these
27:06
agreements but then also
27:07
about 17,500 people have been transferred and I want to
27:13
emphasize that many of
27:13
SPEAKER_03: these people have been
27:15
SPEAKER_03: sent to places where they have no legal and personal ties.
27:18
SPEAKER_03: Some of them have been subjected to arbitrary detention.
27:21
A lot of them have been separated from their family members in
27:24
the United States
27:25
SPEAKER_03: because they've been in the United States for many years.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: And so they're being sent to not only to a country
27:31
they've never been to but also they're separated from their US
27:33
citizen relatives
27:35
and some of them are subject to sort of refoulement which is
27:37
returned to their home
27:38
country from that third country and again a lot of the people
27:42
have are people who
27:42
have been targeted specifically after they've been granted
27:46
protection in the United
27:48
States the Trump administration has failed to disclose many of
27:52
these agreements as
27:53
is required under the law so we still don't have copies of
27:57
these agreements which
27:58
SPEAKER_03: makes it hard to figure out what exactly is going on
28:01
SPEAKER_03: The US government,
28:02
SPEAKER_03: as I mentioned before,
28:03
has paid a lot of money to third country governments in direct
28:07
connection with
28:07
SPEAKER_03: these agreements,
28:08
SPEAKER_03: about $44 million,
28:09
SPEAKER_03: but that's just direct payment.
28:11
There are also a lot of geopolitical carrots that the
28:15
administration is giving,
28:16
and this transactional foreign policy is really undermining the
28:19
protection of human
28:20
SPEAKER_03: rights generally,
28:21
SPEAKER_03: globally.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: The last thing I just wanted to mention is that
28:25
are two things actually most of the people returned to third
28:28
countries are still
28:29
have been returned to Mexico Mexico is the largest receiver of
28:33
third country
28:34
nationals and that's just important to find out and that's not
28:37
completely new but
28:38
SPEAKER_03: it has really rocketed and taken off in different ways during this Trump
28:41
administration and then the last thing is as I mentioned a lot
28:46
of the people who
28:46
have been subject or who have you know to these supposedly to
28:50
be sent to other
28:51
SPEAKER_03: countries aside with asylum cooperative agreements with the United States
28:55
what's happening is that about 15,000 asylum claims in the
29:02
immigration courts have
29:03
basically been canceled their hearings have been canceled
29:06
people have not had their
29:07
SPEAKER_03: day in court in order for people to be
29:10
SPEAKER_03: supposedly sent to these third countries to seek asylum there.
29:15
Not only about 200 people have so far been transferred under
29:19
the Asylum Cooperative Agreement.
29:20
So part of these pretermissions or eliminating the cases from
29:24
the immigration
29:25
courts has to do with the idea of it's sort of like we're going
29:29
to take away your
29:30
SPEAKER_03: day in court.
29:30
SPEAKER_03: We're going to leave you without any legal status in the United States.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: So you're always at risk of detention.
29:36
SPEAKER_03: You've lost your work permit.
29:38
there's a climate of fear in the United States and it's really
29:40
coercing those folks
29:41
to sort of court with a threat that they could be sent to these
29:44
other countries and
29:45
so there is an element of these agreements that though they're
29:48
deportation oriented
29:50
and they're targeting people who have been in the United States
29:52
for a while unlike
29:55
SPEAKER_03: earlier efforts to just focus on recent arrivals.
29:59
They are also not transferring as many people as they're
30:03
threatening to transfer,
30:05
which is sort of part of this idea of using the threat of
30:08
transfer as a fear
30:10
SPEAKER_03: is always looming under terrible conditions.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: that's a real issue.
30:31
Taking a look at this really incredible spreadsheet that you
30:34
all have put together
30:35
SPEAKER_02: on these different agreements,
30:37
SPEAKER_02: the ways in which the U.S.
30:39
has made financial agreements like seven and a half million to
30:42
Equatorial Guinea.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: It looks like 5.1 million to Eswatini.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: This is quite the web that we're looking at.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious where this money is actually going.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: coming from?
30:54
SPEAKER_03: Where are they pulling these funds?
30:56
SPEAKER_03: Direct transfers of money are coming from the State Department.
30:59
SPEAKER_03: There's also a lot of State Department money going
31:03
this used to be money that went to humanitarian assistance for
31:06
refugees in other
31:07
countries and now is being used to deport refugees to other
31:10
countries which is just
31:11
like an amazing reversal right yeah it's sort of like a real a
31:16
real like reversal
31:18
of America's humanitarian position and adherence to refugee law
31:23
so that's one thing
31:24
SPEAKER_03: and some of the money is going to international organizations like the
31:27
SPEAKER_03: International Organization for Migration which is facilitating
31:31
repatriation from the third countries to the home countries,
31:35
which is a big problem.
31:37
SPEAKER_03: So some of the money is sort of indirect.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: There's also,
31:40
SPEAKER_03: beyond the direct transfer of money,
31:43
SPEAKER_03: some of these governments,
31:44
the government of Equatorial Guinea is one of the most corrupt
31:47
governments in the
31:47
SPEAKER_03: world.
31:48
So the big problem isn't just that we've transferred a couple
31:51
million dollars
31:52
but only a few foreign nationals have actually been transferred
31:55
to Equatorial
31:56
Guinea we're not really monitoring how the government of
31:58
Equatorial Guinea is using
31:59
this money so it's just basically giving corrupt governments a
32:03
blank check the
32:04
other thing is that like other governments that it's paying you
32:07
know it's not just
32:09
direct payments there's also the threat of tariffs the threat
32:13
of visa sanctions on
32:14
nationals of those countries other geopolitical ways the
32:18
agreement with the
32:18
SPEAKER_03: Democratic Republic of Congo is indicative of the fact that
32:22
Trump administration has sort of shifted towards supporting in
32:26
the sort of
32:27
SPEAKER_03: negotiations of the DRC with Rwanda over a conflict in Eastern DRC.
32:33
The Trump administration is sort of throwing its weight towards
32:36
DRC at this point
32:37
SPEAKER_03: and away from Rwanda.
32:38
SPEAKER_03: So part of it's like geopolitical, other geopolitical issues.
32:41
SPEAKER_03: There may be contracts involved, mining contracts involved.
32:45
So there's a lot of reasons why the Trump administration may be
32:49
sort of working out
32:50
SPEAKER_03: these deals and why these other countries are getting involved.
32:53
SPEAKER_03: Countries like Ghana,
32:54
SPEAKER_03: I think we're trying to avoid visa restrictions on their own nationals,
32:58
SPEAKER_03: why it may be a different
33:00
SPEAKER_03: is a different economic relationship with the United States.
33:01
SPEAKER_03: So a lot of these agreements,
33:03
SPEAKER_03: especially with African countries,
33:04
are very nationalistic in terms of trying to appeal to the sort
33:08
of state interests
33:09
SPEAKER_03: of these governments.
33:11
What can they get from the Trump administration for signing
33:14
onto these deals,
33:15
which are sold to them as I mentioned before as just temporary
33:18
arrangements they
33:19
don't really have to really worry about having to hold the bag
33:22
too long because
33:22
they're just going to repatriate the people so it's sold in
33:25
that way so some
33:27
SPEAKER_03: governments don't think that they have much to lose
33:30
of any of these deals,
33:31
in Latin America,
33:32
a lot of the arrangements are bullied.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: It's more traditional bullying by the more powerful northern country,
33:40
SPEAKER_03: the United States,
33:41
using its economic relationship and its military control over
33:46
the region to really
33:47
SPEAKER_03: kind of
33:48
can force these governments in a tough spot where they don't
33:52
have as much room to maneuver.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: There have been some successful efforts in other countries,
33:57
SPEAKER_03: at least by civil societies,
33:58
SPEAKER_03: to sort of push back.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: There's been litigation in other countries, especially Costa Rica.
34:03
SPEAKER_03: There's been successful litigation.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: There's been litigation in Ghana as well,
34:07
SPEAKER_03: sort of saying that these agreements violate international law.
34:10
They violate the rights of migrants because the migrants are
34:12
really pawns between
34:15
SPEAKER_03: the state governments in these deals.
34:17
Last time we chatted you kind of mentioned in passing that
34:20
perhaps Europe is
34:21
SPEAKER_02: replicating this web or is getting inspired by this web of third country
34:25
SPEAKER_02: deportations.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Can you share a bit about that?
34:29
Yeah there was a meeting of EU governments and England in
34:33
Moldova just last week
34:36
where EU basically came out and said we are working together to
34:40
sign basically
34:41
externalization agreements and to have return hubs where we're
34:44
going to send asylum
34:45
seekers and other people to third countries to externalize our
34:49
obligations to to
34:51
SPEAKER_03: to make arrangements to stop irregular migration to Europe.
34:54
SPEAKER_03: So yes,
34:55
SPEAKER_03: Europe is,
34:57
and also thinking about how the European Convention on Human
35:00
Rights can be sort of
35:03
SPEAKER_03: moderated to allow for this,
35:05
SPEAKER_03: which is again,
35:06
I think it shows you that this whole idea of making
35:11
arrangements with other
35:12
SPEAKER_03: countries to sort of hold migrants
35:16
SPEAKER_03: who were seeking protection in
35:35
SPEAKER_03: wipe its hands of the needs of so many displaced people in the world.
35:40
SPEAKER_03: It's basically a way of saying we don't want to take any more people.
35:45
We want to outsource a lot of what used to be considered the
35:50
human rights of migrants.
35:52
SPEAKER_03: We want to rethink
35:54
SPEAKER_03: what kind of rights we think migrants deserve is really what it's about.
35:59
And we don't think we have any obligation to provide people a
36:03
place to stay that's
36:04
SPEAKER_03: connected with their families.
36:05
So there's this real lack of concern with sending people to
36:08
where they don't have
36:08
SPEAKER_03: any family ties.
36:10
I just have to say the right to family unity is actually
36:14
something that is
36:15
SPEAKER_03: is more enshrined in European human rights law than it is in U.S. law.
36:20
SPEAKER_03: And this idea that you can just send migrants to some random place,
36:24
SPEAKER_03: regardless of whether or not they have family ties there,
36:27
is part of the EU return regulations that have gone through the
36:31
parliament.
36:32
And it's just this sort of lack of concern with the ultimate
36:37
fate of the migrants
36:39
SPEAKER_03: is really what I think is being betrayed,
36:41
SPEAKER_03: both in the United States and in Europe.
36:44
I also wanted to just like clarify which governments the
36:47
European Union is thinking
36:49
SPEAKER_03: of signing agreements with and send people back.
36:51
So they're thinking of setting up return hubs for migrants who
36:56
have sought
36:57
SPEAKER_03: protection in EU countries and that to send migrants there.
37:02
SPEAKER_03: They're thinking of
37:03
SPEAKER_03: setting them up in Rwanda,
37:06
SPEAKER_03: Ghana,
37:07
SPEAKER_03: Senegal,
37:07
SPEAKER_03: Tunisia,
37:08
SPEAKER_03: Libya,
37:09
SPEAKER_03: Mauritania,
37:10
SPEAKER_03: Egypt,
37:11
SPEAKER_03: Uganda,
37:12
SPEAKER_03: Uzbekistan,
37:13
SPEAKER_03: Armenia,
37:13
SPEAKER_03: Montenegro,
37:14
SPEAKER_03: and Ethiopia.
37:16
SPEAKER_03: Libya, Uganda, Ethiopia, Tunisia.
37:19
SPEAKER_03: Tunisia is not a safe place for migrants,
37:22
SPEAKER_03: does not really accord people an ability to seek protection,
37:25
SPEAKER_03: especially if they're from
37:27
SPEAKER_03: Southern Africa, black migrants in particular.
37:30
Libya is a mess,
37:31
has really,
37:32
really dangerous prisons where it keeps migrants.
37:35
SPEAKER_03: Ethiopia is dealing with its own crisis right now.
37:38
SPEAKER_03: A war is about to break out.
37:40
SPEAKER_03: So these are not secure and stable countries with which to...
37:44
SPEAKER_03: So you can tell that you're setting up a return hub in this place.
37:49
SPEAKER_03: The goal isn't to actually allow people to live there.
37:53
SPEAKER_03: The goal is to actually just force these folks to...
37:57
SPEAKER_03: leave, put them in orbit as I said before.
37:59
So I can't emphasize enough how what I think these agreements
38:03
most of all reveal is
38:05
a complete lack of concern with the ultimate fate of the
38:10
individuals that they're
38:11
SPEAKER_03: sending there and the sending of them into orbit.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Yael, thank you so much for your time.
38:16
I know we could probably talk on and on about this and Yael,
38:19
thank you so much for your time.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for having me and there is a
38:25
SPEAKER_03: There's a way on the website that you can send us an email.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: So if any of you are interested in reaching out and getting in touch,
38:31
SPEAKER_03: please just email through the website and I will be responding.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: So thanks a lot for having me.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: That's good to know.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: We're emailing you.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: It's going to my inbox.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:42
SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: You just heard from Yael Shaker.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: Before you go, a few stories on your way out.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: On Monday,
38:55
a New York City federal judge banned ICE arrests in and around
38:58
three major federal
39:00
SPEAKER_02: courthouses in Lower Manhattan,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: except under exceptional circumstances.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: District Judge P.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Kevin Castell's decision was described by Amy Belcher,
39:09
the director of immigrants' rights litigation at the New York
39:12
Civil Liberties
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Union,
39:13
SPEAKER_02: as,
39:13
SPEAKER_02: quote,
39:14
an enormous win for non-citizen New Yorkers seeking to safely
39:18
attend their
39:18
SPEAKER_02: immigration court proceedings,
39:20
SPEAKER_02: per the local news hub Gothamist.
39:22
The ruling will remain in effect until there is a full review
39:25
of the merits of
39:26
SPEAKER_02: ICE's courthouse arrest policies.
39:30
Also,
39:30
another large-scale ICE operation has been building in Memphis
39:34
since September.
39:35
A report published this week by Mother Jones indicated that
39:38
there are over 2,700
39:41
SPEAKER_01: ICE officers,
39:41
SPEAKER_01: National Guard,
39:43
and officers from several other law enforcement agencies
39:46
stationed across the city
39:47
SPEAKER_01: as part of the Memphis Safe Task Force.
39:51
Tennessee's Republican Governor Bill Lee has expressed support
39:54
for the operation
39:55
SPEAKER_01: and has said the surge will continue indefinitely.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: Then,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: on Tuesday,
40:01
Trump signed an executive order that will require banks to
40:04
treat a customer's
40:05
SPEAKER_02: immigration status as a factor in evaluating potential financial risk.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: The new order will essentially make it harder for non-citizens,
40:13
SPEAKER_02: especially undocumented immigrants,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: to access financial services even for legitimate reasons.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: That's it for us this week.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
40:23
You can reach us at thisweekonice at gmail.com with questions,
40:27
comments,
40:28
or tips.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: If you like this podcast, please go ahead and share it with a friend.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Stay safe.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Look out for your neighbors and we'll see you next time.