Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Tots looked like 'concentration camp survivors,' ate paint off walls

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Tots looked like 'concentration camp survivors,' ate paint off walls · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one.
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Speaker 1: Two children days from death who looked as if they
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Speaker 1: had just quote walked out of a concentration camp. You
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Speaker 1: know when I start reading the news this morning, I
0:31
Speaker 1: started reading the news at five a m. Actually ten
0:34
Speaker 1: till five. I hate it. That's the H word we're
0:40
Speaker 1: not allowed to say in our house, but because the
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Speaker 1: children aren't here, I'll say it. I hate it when
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Speaker 1: I'm reading the news, and then suddenly I come upon
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Speaker 1: a sight that shows me the photos of the concentration camps.
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Speaker 1: Because it is so hurtful and painful to see what
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Speaker 1: humans due to each other. The bones nearly protruding through
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Speaker 1: the skin, people literally looking like walking skeletons. I cannot
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Speaker 1: imagine the pain they endured. And now I hear about
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Speaker 1: little children that looked like that in our country. Why
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Speaker 1: I Mancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
1:41
Speaker 1: being with us. I want the truth. Joining me juvenile judge,
1:49
Speaker 1: child advocate and lawyer Ashley Wilcott also with me, forensic
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Speaker 1: expert Professor of FORENSICSIC Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan
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Speaker 1: and joining me investigative reporter with Radar Online dot Com,
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Speaker 1: Alexis Terres Chuck. Alexis explained to me how three little
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Speaker 1: children are found looking as if they had quote walked
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Speaker 1: out of a concentration camp in our country, right under
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Speaker 1: our noses. Alice have said that they found three children
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Speaker 1: locked in the bedroom and they found them they were
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Speaker 1: so skinny, so malnourished and starving. These kids were actually
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Speaker 1: eating paint off the wall. The children were eating paint
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Speaker 1: off the wall to live. Ashley Willcott, I have prosecuted
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Speaker 1: and investigated so many child ab cases, not just child
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Speaker 1: molestation but child abuse as well, where children were burned
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Speaker 1: with cigarettes and beaten into an irreversible coma. This is
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Speaker 1: hurting my heart so much. The children, Ashley, were eating
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Speaker 1: the paint off the walls. They were tortured, they were
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Speaker 1: allowed to literally starve to death and the trauma and
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Speaker 1: the physical consequences. And I know Joe Scott Morgan can
3:32
Speaker 1: speak better to that, but this is a horrific, sadistic
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Speaker 1: starving children to death, and these kids are doing all
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Speaker 1: they can to survive. Remember they were four years old,
3:45
Speaker 1: five year old and six years old, so they are
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Speaker 1: very young children. And what's also disturbing to Alexis to
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Speaker 1: restaurant with writer online dot Com. The parents look healthy.
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Speaker 1: In fact, you know what mommy hasn't is the meal. No,
4:01
Speaker 1: not at all. The parents were fine. They absolutely looked
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Speaker 1: like they were eating every meal. And you know another
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Speaker 1: thing that the police had about the kids. There were
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Speaker 1: no beds for these kids. There were no toys for
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Speaker 1: these children. They were just locked in an empty room,
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Speaker 1: eating the paint off the walls. Oh, this is just hurtful.
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan first of all, explained to me how
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Speaker 1: the moment the police found them and unlocked that bedroom door,
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Speaker 1: they knew the children instinctively knew the children were days
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Speaker 1: from death. The children, Nancy, when they were initially found,
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Speaker 1: would have had almost I don't know how to describe
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Speaker 1: it other than ghosts like features. They're locked in a room, uh,
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Speaker 1: wasted in appearance. That means their eyes are gonna be sunken. There,
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Speaker 1: probably begging for water at this point in time, because
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Speaker 1: you know, even even if you're even in starvation cases,
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Speaker 1: you've got people that are absent water that just the
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Speaker 1: basics that are containing food. Uh, they would have been
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Speaker 1: unable to speak very well. Uh my suspicion is they're
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Speaker 1: just kind of laying about on the floor in total lethargy,
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Speaker 1: and that goes to absence of food. But it also
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Speaker 1: goes to something else, uh, Nancy, And that's that's toxicity
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Speaker 1: from other things in this room they could have been ingesting.
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Speaker 1: Thinking about them scraping the paint off the wall to eat,
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Speaker 1: it explained to me what paint, particularly lead paint, will
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Speaker 1: do to the human body, Joe Scott, Nancy. There's you know,
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Speaker 1: there's a variety of paints out there. This is an
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Speaker 1: older home. I was taking a look at the pictures
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Speaker 1: of this place, and if a lead paint is there, Lead,
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Speaker 1: as many people in your audience know, is a heavy
5:51
Speaker 1: metal and this is uh gonna fit effect the the
5:55
Speaker 1: central nervous system. It's uh, it can lead to seizures. Uh.
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Speaker 1: It's it's highly toxic and carcinogenic. So this could lead
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Speaker 1: to cancers. They'll have muscle stiffness, joint stiffness. At what
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Speaker 1: it does, it's it's kind of kind of it's really
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Speaker 1: really horrific because you can see an old a young
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Speaker 1: young person that has been ingesting lead or lead uh
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Speaker 1: diet that has lead in it um, and they will
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Speaker 1: give a manifestation Nancy, almost like they're they're well into
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Speaker 1: their eighties. Uh, you know, very stumped over and and
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Speaker 1: hard to move there. The hands will present almost in
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Speaker 1: claw like features. Uh. This is you know, lead obviously
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Speaker 1: is something that uh you know, I've worked cases where
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Speaker 1: people have have been poisoned by lead um and it's
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Speaker 1: a horrible set of circumstances. Not to mention the other
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Speaker 1: cocktail in the paint that binds his paint together where
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Speaker 1: it's made at the factory. Investigative reporter with Radar online
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Speaker 1: dot Com alexas the reason I wanted so badly to
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Speaker 1: do this story. As much as I hate even reading
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Speaker 1: the words in my investigation, I want the world to
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Speaker 1: know that this is happening. And the house next to you,
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Speaker 1: down the street from you, the house that's caddy cornered
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Speaker 1: to you in your neighborhood. This is a lovely rural area.
7:25
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. It's there in Pennsylvania. When you look around
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Speaker 1: the home, there lust trees and a lawn that looks
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Speaker 1: like it's just been mode. You would never imagine that
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Speaker 1: that's what's happening inside this home. And alexis there were
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Speaker 1: ten people living there. They all let the children starve.
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Speaker 1: It's very difficult for me to believe that the mother
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Speaker 1: and father, we're the only ones it knew the children
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Speaker 1: were locked in a room starving, Alexis. And that's the
8:05
Speaker 1: thing is that you're right. There were ten people living there,
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Speaker 1: So it took somebody else outside the home to call
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Speaker 1: and report these children, to ask the police to go
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Speaker 1: check on them, and and they but they were locked
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Speaker 1: in there. They were not allowed out. And one thing
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Speaker 1: that the police learned in their investigation that they revealed,
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Speaker 1: they said the reason that these parents were starving these
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Speaker 1: kids was because they didn't want them anymore. And that
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Speaker 1: was that they just decided, we don't want you, so
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Speaker 1: we're just going to starve you today. Well, when they
8:30
Speaker 1: were found, deputies questioned the mother and father Ashley, will
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Speaker 1: cut joining me, juven I'll judge and child welfare law
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Speaker 1: expert Ashley Again. When deputies arrived, they said that they
8:45
Speaker 1: could see the children's bones through their skin. I just
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Speaker 1: want you to hold that mental image for a moment, Ashley. Now,
8:56
Speaker 1: the mom and dad gave conflicting statements that they were
9:01
Speaker 1: not the children's parents, but that neighbors insist, Oh, yes
9:04
Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it. So are they
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Speaker 1: or are they not? The biological parents is something that
9:11
Speaker 1: the state needs to be looking into because these children
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Speaker 1: are in foster care. To determine whether or not they
9:17
Speaker 1: are one thing that always is interesting to note if
9:21
Speaker 1: they let's assume and I know that we don't know this,
9:25
Speaker 1: Let's assume they're adoptive parents. They would be receiving an
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Speaker 1: adoption subsidy for each of these children if they were
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Speaker 1: adopted from foster care. So there are a whole lot
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Speaker 1: of questions because some argue, what if they were receiving
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Speaker 1: a subsidy, earning money and didn't want the kids so
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Speaker 1: they just locked them in a closet. These are things
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Speaker 1: that have to be investigated. Well, the other issue is
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Speaker 1: I feel confident and I'm waiting for the investigation to
9:51
Speaker 1: unfold that whether they are the adopted parents or the
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Speaker 1: biological parents, that they are receiving some sort of government
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Speaker 1: paycheck for these children, and with each child you get
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Speaker 1: another paycheck. So the neighbors and others insists that these
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Speaker 1: are the biological parents. But your suggestion adds a whole
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Speaker 1: another layer of deceit that they had the children to
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Speaker 1: get money and then we're slowly starving them. Joe Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: forensic expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: the children each weighed under thirty pounds. What does that mean? Well,
10:38
Speaker 1: as we've discussed in previous cases, Nancy, you were painting
10:41
Speaker 1: this picture of the police officers being able to see
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Speaker 1: the skeleton of of the children as they walked in.
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Speaker 1: This gives us an indication that now any kind of
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Speaker 1: fat reserves that the children had on their bodies, and
10:55
Speaker 1: we all have fat on our bodies and some level
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Speaker 1: had already been consumed. That's that's based energy. Now you're
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Speaker 1: into a point and get this where their bodies are
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Speaker 1: literally ingesting themselves, where they're eating away at muscle. That's
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Speaker 1: how you get to the point when you see these
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Speaker 1: pictures of people that have been um in these horrible
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Speaker 1: captive situations in prison camps and things like that, where
11:18
Speaker 1: they look like walking skeletons. That's what these children look
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Speaker 1: like because their body was seating, was seeking nutrition, and
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Speaker 1: so the body then begins to eat the muscle tissue.
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Speaker 1: You've gone beyond the fat into the muscle, and these
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Speaker 1: kids are wasted in appearance. Something else that they probably
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Speaker 1: saw as well is uh lack of nutrition means that
11:39
Speaker 1: these kids teeth are beginning to fall out. More than
11:43
Speaker 1: likely they're losing hair. Uh, they've got horrible there's a
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Speaker 1: horrible rash that comes about on the skin as well
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Speaker 1: as a result of maud nutrition. It's it's a pure,
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Speaker 1: total and living hell uh that these kids would have
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Speaker 1: been in. Yeah, what's amazing are online dot com. I'm
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Speaker 1: looking at the home right now, and the yard is mode.
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Speaker 1: There are islands of shrubs and ornamental trees in the yard.
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Speaker 1: They're everything is neat and it looks freshly painted on
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Speaker 1: the outside. The roof looks like it maybe knew. There
12:23
Speaker 1: are clearly to fireplaces in the home. There was an
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Speaker 1: attached garage. I see a blue and a red a
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Speaker 1: very shiny red pickup truck out front that looks like
12:34
Speaker 1: it may have just been waxed because it's so shiny.
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Speaker 1: They took care of the home, Alexis and the cars,
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Speaker 1: but not the children, it looks like and that's why
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Speaker 1: it took a neighbor who probably had seen the kids
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Speaker 1: for a while, and then all of a sudden they disappeared,
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Speaker 1: and so they got concerned about them, which is wonderful
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Speaker 1: that people are finally take notice in and calling and
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Speaker 1: not just assuming that they have no business getting involved
13:02
Speaker 1: because it's the little children had nobody else to help them,
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Speaker 1: but they were locked in this house and with all
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Speaker 1: the other people coming and going, nobody said anything. It
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Speaker 1: took somebody that lived there and had seen those kids
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Speaker 1: and knew they were there and had seen them before
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Speaker 1: to call the police and say, something is going on
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Speaker 1: because we haven't seen these kids in a while. How
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Speaker 1: does that happen with me? Juvenile judge, child welfare law
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Speaker 1: expert Ashley Wilcott Ashley, how do you They can't possibly
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Speaker 1: be going to school in this condition? So how does
13:30
Speaker 1: that happen? How do you just not show up for
13:32
Speaker 1: school and nobody notices? Well, I know the ages are
13:36
Speaker 1: four or five and six, and so let's assume as
13:38
Speaker 1: six year old is in school, it doesn't shouldn't happen.
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Speaker 1: Somebody should notice. They have to take attendance. They have
13:45
Speaker 1: to note if the child's in school or not. If
13:48
Speaker 1: it's not mandatory. For instance, in the state of Georgia,
13:50
Speaker 1: it's not mandatory to go to kindergarten. So if they're
13:53
Speaker 1: not in something that's not mandatory, it may not be
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Speaker 1: reported the same. But otherwise attendance is report it. It's
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Speaker 1: called truancy. It should be reported so that someone can
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Speaker 1: investigate us to where the children are. The three little children,
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Speaker 1: a six year old boy and two girls just five
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Speaker 1: and four, were discovered by deputies underweight, their skin caked
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Speaker 1: with animal hair, dirt, feces, and urine. According to the
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Speaker 1: arrest affidavit to Joseph Scott Morgan, their core body temperatures
14:27
Speaker 1: were just ninety four degrees For I was spending so
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Speaker 1: much time locked in an unheeded bedroom shared by all three.
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Speaker 1: What does it mean when your body temperature is down
14:41
Speaker 1: four points? Oh, it's it's you're you're getting into arrange
14:45
Speaker 1: their nancy where the body is in an unsustainable uh posture. Again,
14:52
Speaker 1: just goes back to the malnourishment the kids. I mean,
14:57
Speaker 1: it's very simple science that these kids have no installation
15:02
Speaker 1: in dwelling in their body. That's one of the reasons
15:04
Speaker 1: we have a fat layer on our body, so their
15:08
Speaker 1: core body temperature is easily going to drop. Let's think
15:11
Speaker 1: about like if any of us have aged aged family
15:14
Speaker 1: or friends around. One of the things that many of
15:17
Speaker 1: the agent always complain about is talking about they're constantly
15:19
Speaker 1: feeling cold. Well. One of the reasons is is that
15:23
Speaker 1: they've lost body mass at that point in time in
15:25
Speaker 1: their life and they've got poor circulation. That's what I'm
15:29
Speaker 1: talking about with these kids. These kids have been almost
15:32
Speaker 1: in an accelerated posture going forward where the aging process
15:36
Speaker 1: is taken in my bed, is this Nancy moving down
15:39
Speaker 1: the road years and years from now. There is a
15:42
Speaker 1: possibility that these kids could have a shortened life as
15:45
Speaker 1: a result of this taking place during their developmental process.
15:50
Speaker 1: There was even a guy in his fiancee that rented
15:54
Speaker 1: one I told you there wasn't a two attached garages
15:57
Speaker 1: to the home. It turns out that one of them
16:00
Speaker 1: was being rented out as an apartment. Believe it or not,
16:04
Speaker 1: they were making money off a renter, like in a
16:07
Speaker 1: guest area of the home. He says he and his
16:11
Speaker 1: fiance lived there and they had no idea how many
16:15
Speaker 1: children lived there. He never even knew about the inhabitants
16:18
Speaker 1: of the locked room. When he was asked, he replied
16:22
Speaker 1: he thought the wooden structure behind the home was a playhouse,
16:26
Speaker 1: although he never saw any children in it. How can
16:29
Speaker 1: that be? How can that be, Ashley, that you got
16:34
Speaker 1: somebody renting and they are in shock they didn't even
16:38
Speaker 1: know the children were there. Well, keep in mind, these
16:42
Speaker 1: two parents are criminals, and they are going to hide
16:46
Speaker 1: what they have done or are doing. And my question
16:49
Speaker 1: is if you have three children who have been starved
16:53
Speaker 1: to the point of malnutrition and almost death, which means
16:56
Speaker 1: a long period of time, these children maybe not make
17:00
Speaker 1: able to make any noise, to not cry out, to
17:04
Speaker 1: not be heard. And if the renters are renting and
17:07
Speaker 1: ignoring what's what's going on or going into the big house,
17:10
Speaker 1: I see that criminals could hide this activity. Sadly, you know.
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Speaker 1: According to the state police affidavit, which I have read
17:17
Speaker 1: in detail, the children told deputies they were locked in
17:21
Speaker 1: their room and could not leave. Investigators found hook and
17:25
Speaker 1: eye locks on the outside of the children's bedroom door.
17:30
Speaker 1: They stated they would pound on the wall to be
17:33
Speaker 1: let out to use the bathroom, and no one would come,
17:36
Speaker 1: so they would just urinate on themselves or the floor.
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Speaker 1: The affidavit states that the room quote reeked of a
17:45
Speaker 1: strong odor similar to that of caged animals. The two
17:51
Speaker 1: older of five and six year old were so emaciated
17:55
Speaker 1: that their ribs, spines, and other bones were actually visible
18:01
Speaker 1: through their skin. And this just breaks my heart, Alexis.
18:08
Speaker 1: The children say the last thing they remembered eating was
18:12
Speaker 1: an apple, and they they told the police that the
18:17
Speaker 1: reason they were locked in the room was because they
18:19
Speaker 1: got caught trying to They used the word steal food.
18:24
Speaker 1: When your child lives in your house, they're not stealing
18:26
Speaker 1: your food, and that's what they said. And these kids
18:28
Speaker 1: are so little, four, five and six to tell to understand,
18:32
Speaker 1: to tell the police that the reason that they were
18:34
Speaker 1: locked in was because they tried to steal food. It's
18:38
Speaker 1: so sad. And also, you know the woman their parents
18:41
Speaker 1: rented this home, this this they didn't even own this house,
18:44
Speaker 1: they rented it. And their landlady said that originally they
18:48
Speaker 1: had always been very responsible tenants, that they paid the
18:53
Speaker 1: rent on time, they always called and said if something
18:56
Speaker 1: had happened, they were they were respectful, and she said
18:59
Speaker 1: with them when she when they went the police found
19:01
Speaker 1: the house, there were lice in the house, there were
19:05
Speaker 1: bed bugs in the house, and there was mold everywhere.
19:07
Speaker 1: And that's how these kids were living. And here's the dichotomy.
19:11
Speaker 1: Listen to this. Ash The mom, Brandy Wyant thirty eight,
19:17
Speaker 1: clipped cupons and eat it for food and actually sent
19:23
Speaker 1: extra bushels of apples and frozen food to her neighbors.
19:29
Speaker 1: Joshua the husband would clear away trash and rake the lawn.
19:35
Speaker 1: And they even had recently hosted a birthday party with
19:38
Speaker 1: the bonfire in the backyard. Now what do you think
19:43
Speaker 1: about that, Ashid? The children could smell, for instance, hot
19:46
Speaker 1: dogs and hamburgers cooking at the party in the backyard
19:51
Speaker 1: while they're locked in the dark at ninety four degrees
19:54
Speaker 1: body chump eating paint off the wall. Nancy, this is crap.
19:59
Speaker 1: This It devastates me. It breaks my heart. But more
20:03
Speaker 1: than that, it makes me angry. I am telling you
20:06
Speaker 1: right now, in my expert opinion, they were getting a
20:08
Speaker 1: paycheck for each of these children. They locked them away,
20:12
Speaker 1: they ignored them, they discarded him. These children are going
20:15
Speaker 1: to be traumatized forever. Their physical and mental health is
20:19
Speaker 1: going to be an issue forever. They are going to
20:22
Speaker 1: require treatment forever. In these pieces, you know what, parents
20:27
Speaker 1: sat around living high off the hog. This case discuss me,
20:30
Speaker 1: you know, I know defense attorneys and shrinks won't disagree
20:36
Speaker 1: with me, but I just wish people that treated children
20:43
Speaker 1: this way could just be sent away to an island
20:48
Speaker 1: and they can all enjoy each other's company and never
20:53
Speaker 1: be here to scare or mistreat or abuse children ever. Again.
21:02
Speaker 1: Take a listen to what the chief Deputy District Attorney,
21:06
Speaker 1: Jennifer Gettle says. I think that perhaps the most horrifying
21:10
Speaker 1: pictures of are of the three children. Of course, Uh,
21:13
Speaker 1: they look like they walked out of a concentration camp. Um,
21:16
Speaker 1: just as we would have had the testimony about two
21:19
Speaker 1: weeks for two of them, two weeks away from death.
21:22
Speaker 1: Um is what the doctors had told us. Um. Of course,
21:25
Speaker 1: the conditions of what they were sleeping in. I know
21:28
Speaker 1: that there have been pictures out in the media that
21:30
Speaker 1: show a room with lots of things in it. Um,
21:32
Speaker 1: excuse me, but the reality was the room, as the
21:35
Speaker 1: police founded on that day, was completely empty. Uh. There
21:39
Speaker 1: were no beds in that room. There were no toys
21:41
Speaker 1: in that room. Uh. The only thing that there was
21:43
Speaker 1: was the paint peeling off of the wall. Um. Did
21:46
Speaker 1: you talk about the kids, I don't. Uh did the
21:50
Speaker 1: defendants the defendants did not make any statements today. How
21:53
Speaker 1: are the kids doing. They're doing much better. All three
21:56
Speaker 1: of them are now out of the hospital and they're
21:58
Speaker 1: they're thriving. They have upled their weight since since the
22:02
Speaker 1: police became involved. Are they in foster care at this
22:05
Speaker 1: point there in care? It's not with their family obviously.
22:08
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23:54
Speaker 1: on the Florida school shooter, one of the worst shootings
23:59
Speaker 1: in a school in US history, and of course this
24:03
Speaker 1: morning it's WOULDA, COULDA, shoulda? What should we have done?
24:09
Speaker 1: Why didn't this happen? Or that happen? That is cold
24:13
Speaker 1: comfort for the families of these dead children. This shooter,
24:20
Speaker 1: Nicholas Cruz, showing quite a bit of cunning and purchasing weapons,
24:28
Speaker 1: sneaking back to the school where he had already been expelled,
24:32
Speaker 1: gunning down classmates, then intentionally blending into the crowd, even
24:40
Speaker 1: callously going to a sandwich shop at McDonald's to kick
24:44
Speaker 1: back after murdering seventeen and injuring others. Straight out to
24:51
Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter John what is the latest.
24:58
Speaker 1: I know that Cruise was just in court. I know
25:02
Speaker 1: that a judge has ordered the release of social services
25:07
Speaker 1: records on Nicholas Cruise. We're learning about the gun cabinet
25:13
Speaker 1: that should have been locked, and we're learning about how
25:17
Speaker 1: many guns Nicholas Cruise purchased. What do you know, John Lemley?
25:25
Speaker 1: So many details Nancy coming our way in just shy
25:29
Speaker 1: of a week now since the shooting. Funerals continue on
25:35
Speaker 1: a daily, grim pace, several a day for the victims.
25:39
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, the suspect Nicholas Cruise appeared in court
25:44
Speaker 1: for a procedural hearing on Monday. He had nothing to
25:47
Speaker 1: say in that Broward County Circuit court. This time. He
25:51
Speaker 1: actually attended in person, not by way of video. He
25:55
Speaker 1: kept his head down, did not appear to make eye
25:57
Speaker 1: contact with the judge or others in the court room.
26:00
Speaker 1: Maybe for a moment, he responded briefly to somebody on
26:04
Speaker 1: his defense team. The hearing was all about the rules
26:08
Speaker 1: going forward, about how documents are going to be sealed.
26:11
Speaker 1: The circuit Judge, Elizabeth Sherri said that she was in
26:15
Speaker 1: favor of openness whenever possible, and the lawyers for crews
26:22
Speaker 1: have said that he will plead guilty if prosecutors agree
26:25
Speaker 1: not to pursue the death penalty. No decision yet has
26:29
Speaker 1: been made on that. Meanwhile, in Fort Lauderdale, UH judge
26:34
Speaker 1: has ordered the release of a state investigation into allegations
26:38
Speaker 1: of abuse and neglect in the home of Nicholas Cruz.
26:42
Speaker 1: The records were released on Monday and detail how in
26:47
Speaker 1: the late part of social workers mental health investigators evaluated
26:53
Speaker 1: and diagnosed Crews with autism, depression, and a d h D.
26:59
Speaker 1: All right there, why wh wha wait? Who diagnosed him
27:02
Speaker 1: with autism? These were mental health investigators well hired by him.
27:07
Speaker 1: They were part of the social worker case that had
27:12
Speaker 1: been opened to look into possible abuse in his home.
27:17
Speaker 1: Abuse because at the thirty nine times that I know
27:19
Speaker 1: the police were called, it was all him abusing his
27:23
Speaker 1: mother and others neighbors as well. I don't recall learning
27:29
Speaker 1: about any police reports regarding his abuse. Correct me if
27:34
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, John Limley, that that is correct. But there
27:37
Speaker 1: were rumors that it might be the flip side, that
27:42
Speaker 1: he might be the one experiencing the abuse. How could
27:47
Speaker 1: thirty nine police reports all be wrong? John? That's that's
27:53
Speaker 1: the head scratcher. Right, I'm trying to make sense of this, Um,
28:00
Speaker 1: John Lemley, how many guns do you think do we
28:03
Speaker 1: think at this juncture Cruise purchased. We think it could
28:08
Speaker 1: be in the teens of firearms. A law enforcement source
28:13
Speaker 1: briefed on the investigation, UH said that crews had obtained
28:17
Speaker 1: at least ten all of them rifles, one of them
28:22
Speaker 1: uh and a K fourteen just in the past month alone.
28:26
Speaker 1: You know, I know that the family that took him
28:31
Speaker 1: in owns up to him having five or six weapons
28:35
Speaker 1: and claims he had a right to own an a
28:38
Speaker 1: R fifteen. I'm I'm confused about something. Maybe I don't
28:45
Speaker 1: understand the facts correctly, John Lemley. You said that police
28:48
Speaker 1: forces are saying he had up in the teens of weapons, right.
28:52
Speaker 1: Add in all of the accessories that go with these guns. Uh.
28:58
Speaker 1: He purchased different guns at different stores. Uh. And then
29:03
Speaker 1: on top of that, any sort of accessories to make
29:08
Speaker 1: the gun more powerful. Uh. Those were purchased at yet
29:12
Speaker 1: other stores could be online. Uh. There are still some
29:17
Speaker 1: questions about that. I'm trying to understand. To Dr Tiffany Sanders,
29:21
Speaker 1: Chicago psychologists joining us here on serious sex in two,
29:25
Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany. Those that know him do not believe that
29:29
Speaker 1: he is autistic. He had a job at the local
29:34
Speaker 1: dollar tree and was performing normally, if not well. He
29:38
Speaker 1: had gotten to all the way up through high school
29:43
Speaker 1: m you know, functioning gray to great great. He had
29:46
Speaker 1: been held back twice. I know at least that much.
29:50
Speaker 1: He managed to go and purchase on his own all
29:56
Speaker 1: of these weapons, filling out forms showing I D saving
30:01
Speaker 1: the money to go by the weapons, going on social media,
30:07
Speaker 1: posting about himself and photos, and his interests including his
30:12
Speaker 1: intent to become a quote professional school shooter. I don't
30:17
Speaker 1: see how he falls under the autistic spectrum, right, Nancy,
30:21
Speaker 1: and I've worked with tons of children and adolescents who
30:24
Speaker 1: fall in the autism spectrums UH disorder, and typically you
30:28
Speaker 1: will see those kids identified as youngest age two and three.
30:33
Speaker 1: These individuals will have developmental delays, difficulty with language, difficulty
30:38
Speaker 1: with nonverbal skills UM. They also can suffer from other
30:41
Speaker 1: mental health difficulties such as UH seizures, anxiety, a d
30:46
Speaker 1: H d UM and and what you often truly see
30:49
Speaker 1: as many of these kids have. With their poor language
30:52
Speaker 1: skills difficulty communicating, they're not likely to hold down a job.
30:57
Speaker 1: These individuals are often enrolled in high school pro rooms
31:00
Speaker 1: that are life skill based, teaching them basic skills such
31:03
Speaker 1: as math, reading, just so that they can function within life.
31:07
Speaker 1: So I'm highly doubtful that he had autism UM, but
31:12
Speaker 1: I'm more likely to assume that he had conduct disorder
31:15
Speaker 1: because reports have mentioned that he tortured or abused animals. UM.
31:21
Speaker 1: He had a history of posting uh ominous messages on
31:26
Speaker 1: social media, threatening um and intimidating others. UH. He has
31:31
Speaker 1: had access to all these sorts of weapons and and
31:34
Speaker 1: truly has been a sort of a bully to others.
31:39
Speaker 1: So that behavior is more in line with conduct disorder,
31:43
Speaker 1: which leads to some of these actions that he later
31:45
Speaker 1: took involving killing seventeen people. Take a listen to what
31:49
Speaker 1: his new parents that have taken him in since his
31:53
Speaker 1: mom passed away with the flu just recently have to say.
31:56
Speaker 1: This is James and Kimberly Snead talking on our friend
32:01
Speaker 1: ABC's Good Morning America. Listen, it's a roller coaster of emotions. UM,
32:09
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's still tough. It's still we're still
32:11
Speaker 1: already still grieving, um. The families, it's effected, and and
32:16
Speaker 1: and you open your home to cruise for nearly three months,
32:19
Speaker 1: and you tried to get him counseling. And what was
32:21
Speaker 1: he like in your home? Nothing that they portrayed on
32:25
Speaker 1: television or in the media. Everything everybody seems to know.
32:28
Speaker 1: We didn't know. Um. We had rules and he followed
32:33
Speaker 1: every rule to the team. And before he moved into
32:36
Speaker 1: your home, how well did you know him? I had
32:38
Speaker 1: met him a couple of times before, he had spent
32:40
Speaker 1: the night at the house, and he was very polite. Um,
32:43
Speaker 1: he didn't. He seemed normal. And Kimberly, can you take
32:47
Speaker 1: us back to that day? Were there anything unusual out
32:50
Speaker 1: of the normal with his behavior before that day? No? No, no.
32:53
Speaker 1: The only thing that was maybe different was that he
32:56
Speaker 1: didn't go to school. He usually drives him to school
32:58
Speaker 1: and with him in the morning, he didn't go and
33:01
Speaker 1: that particular morning, which sometimes happens anything. He said he
33:04
Speaker 1: didn't go to school on Valentine's Day? But when did
33:08
Speaker 1: you realize what he had done? Um? After the SWAT
33:13
Speaker 1: team called me and asked where if I knew where
33:16
Speaker 1: my son Nicholas was, and I said, he's not my son,
33:19
Speaker 1: but I don't know where he's at. And at that
33:21
Speaker 1: point I got in touch with my son, who was
33:23
Speaker 1: fleeing the scene at that point, and m Description came
33:28
Speaker 1: out and we put two and two together, me and
33:31
Speaker 1: my son, and we figured out what was happening and
33:34
Speaker 1: what was going through your mind when this happened. Did
33:37
Speaker 1: you did you both find out at the same time. No,
33:39
Speaker 1: she was home sleeping and um. At that point, I
33:42
Speaker 1: was panic stricken for her safety. So I called the
33:44
Speaker 1: SWAT officer back to get the police back to my
33:48
Speaker 1: home to check on her. And and after all this happened,
33:51
Speaker 1: at one point, you did get a chance to see
33:53
Speaker 1: Nicholas And what did you say to him? Did he
33:56
Speaker 1: and did he speak back to you? It's anything back.
33:59
Speaker 1: It was at the police station when they were going
34:02
Speaker 1: past us, and I basically I went after him. I
34:06
Speaker 1: really wanted to strugg neus, to strangle inbu more than anything,
34:08
Speaker 1: and I just everything I wanted to say, I just didn't.
34:12
Speaker 1: I tried to reserve myself. I was is really nick
34:15
Speaker 1: really you know, yelled at him and he mumbled something
34:18
Speaker 1: but I didn't hear. And he said he said he
34:20
Speaker 1: was sorry. I said he was sorry. I didn't hear
34:22
Speaker 1: that I was just furious and heartbroken, absolutely just heartbroken
34:28
Speaker 1: and devastated. And I still can't process it what he's
34:32
Speaker 1: done because this wasn't the person that we knew, not
34:36
Speaker 1: at all, and he was friends with your son. How's
34:39
Speaker 1: your son holding up? He's he's angry, he's angry, he's betrayed,
34:43
Speaker 1: he's you know, um, he's upset, furious. Um. He was
34:47
Speaker 1: at that school too, and he had friends at that school.
34:51
Speaker 1: Joining me right now, special guest in addition to Ashley Wilcott,
34:56
Speaker 1: Joseph's Got, Morgan Dodger, Tiffany Sanders, and John Limley joining
35:00
Speaker 1: me now. A lawyer who specializes in school law, Andrea Titil. Andrea,
35:07
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I'd like to hear
35:09
Speaker 1: your thoughts. This poor child fell through the cracks. And
35:14
Speaker 1: the school district is the pay or and identify or
35:19
Speaker 1: of first resort and a child spends most of their
35:22
Speaker 1: time in school. He was identified, should have been identified
35:28
Speaker 1: under the I d e A, under a mandate called
35:31
Speaker 1: Child Find and he fell through the cracks. Oh, my
35:35
Speaker 1: thoughts are are so focused on the school district and
35:40
Speaker 1: what could have and should have been done in school
35:43
Speaker 1: districts Nancy have an affirmative duty to identify these children.
35:49
Speaker 1: They received federal block grant money from Congress every year,
35:55
Speaker 1: and in exchange for that money, they promised to implement
35:59
Speaker 1: and provide special education law. Special education law, under a
36:04
Speaker 1: mandate called child find requires the school districts to identify, evaluate,
36:13
Speaker 1: and remediate problems. This boy's problems did not start before
36:18
Speaker 1: he was expelled. These this boy's problems started long ago,
36:24
Speaker 1: and they had a duty to identify him, to assess him,
36:28
Speaker 1: to hold a meeting, and to make sure he was
36:31
Speaker 1: offered the programming and services necessary to help remediate him.
36:36
Speaker 1: School districts have an array of services that they can offer,
36:40
Speaker 1: including counseling in school and all the way up through
36:45
Speaker 1: hospitalization and residential treatment programs at no cost. Question to you, Andrea,
36:51
Speaker 1: Andrea Titel, why do you think none of this was
36:55
Speaker 1: done the things you're saying should have been done. It
36:57
Speaker 1: seems to me that we've got a a cadre of
37:01
Speaker 1: social workers and mental health counselors and school administrators who
37:05
Speaker 1: are the on the front lines documenting everything they've learned.
37:11
Speaker 1: They are meeting with him, they are counseling him, they
37:15
Speaker 1: are trying to help him because they've had multiple countless
37:19
Speaker 1: meetings and sessions with the workers. Unfortunately, there is so
37:24
Speaker 1: little continuity of care, and that's what happens. This was
37:29
Speaker 1: an accident waiting to happen long before. But you were
37:34
Speaker 1: saying he should have gotten all that. But apparently he
37:37
Speaker 1: did get all that based on and paid for by
37:40
Speaker 1: you and me and everybody listening right now. We paid
37:44
Speaker 1: for that, and I'm happy to and he got those services.
37:47
Speaker 1: Those services were rendered to him. The services that that
37:52
Speaker 1: he needed required a residential more likely mill you with
37:58
Speaker 1: education and therapy and whatever else he needed. It doesn't
38:04
Speaker 1: sound to me like this young man was given the
38:07
Speaker 1: extent and the level of service that he deserved and required.
38:11
Speaker 1: So now, Andrea, you're saying, first it was he didn't
38:15
Speaker 1: get the services. Then when I point out he did
38:17
Speaker 1: get the services, you are now saying he got the
38:19
Speaker 1: wrong services, and you are deciding that he should have
38:24
Speaker 1: been you said residential treatment. I mean, I don't know
38:27
Speaker 1: if that ever did or didn't happen, but I do
38:30
Speaker 1: know that family and neighbors say his parents, mother and
38:35
Speaker 1: father that took him and his brother in when they
38:38
Speaker 1: were infants, when they were little little boys worked so
38:43
Speaker 1: hard to give them a quote beautiful home, and outwardly
38:48
Speaker 1: the home is beautiful. The mother and father both worked
38:52
Speaker 1: full time and really strove to give them all the
38:57
Speaker 1: love they thought they needed after they were abandoned by
39:01
Speaker 1: their first parents. And I'm just trying to figure out
39:05
Speaker 1: what you know that I don't know, because I know
39:08
Speaker 1: he met met with mental health workers at the school.
39:11
Speaker 1: Social workers, school counselors repeatedly, Now, why do you think
39:18
Speaker 1: he should have gone into a residential treatment. I don't
39:21
Speaker 1: believe that this young man had an I e P.
39:23
Speaker 1: I don't know that to be the truth, but I
39:27
Speaker 1: would be very curious to ascertain that. And I e
39:31
Speaker 1: P is an individualized educational program that does cover mental
39:35
Speaker 1: health issues. I believe that he was and should have
39:39
Speaker 1: been found eligible for special education under the criteria of
39:44
Speaker 1: severely emotionally disturbed. I don't believe that to be the case.
39:48
Speaker 1: And the fact that DCF identified him through mental health workers,
39:54
Speaker 1: they are not the ones that provide the services. It
39:58
Speaker 1: is the school. The school is the identifier and pay
40:02
Speaker 1: or of first resort for these services. But I've also
40:07
Speaker 1: done some investigation, and I've learned that DCF said he
40:12
Speaker 1: was in good shape, he was with his mom, and
40:14
Speaker 1: he was going to school, and that was the last
40:17
Speaker 1: report that they did and posed no threat whatsoever to society.
40:22
Speaker 1: Joining me also as child welfare law expert Ashley Wilcott
40:26
Speaker 1: Ashley Um investigators noted his health diagnosis and it seemed
40:35
Speaker 1: to manifest in hatred, Nazi symbols on his book back
40:41
Speaker 1: his backpack, next to a declaration written I hate and
40:50
Speaker 1: a racial slur which I'm not even going to state
40:55
Speaker 1: and Sully serious sex that's on his backpack. Um. Yes,
41:06
Speaker 1: all the signs were there and he was expelled. Ashley,
41:12
Speaker 1: I mean you hear what Andrew ty Tail is saying.
41:14
Speaker 1: She specializes in school law. I'm sure she's right in
41:19
Speaker 1: that he should have been dealing with a counselor at
41:23
Speaker 1: school and someone to help him. But it sounds like
41:27
Speaker 1: that did happen, Ashley. What am I missing? Well, even
41:30
Speaker 1: if that happened, that's not the only person or agency
41:34
Speaker 1: responsible when you have a child who has so many
41:38
Speaker 1: signs of red flags of help, help, help, help, keeping
41:43
Speaker 1: mind Nancy. From my perspective of child welfare, he was adopted.
41:48
Speaker 1: We don't know if he was adopted from the system
41:50
Speaker 1: or a private individual. We don't know what happened to
41:53
Speaker 1: him before he was adopted, but if it caused trauma,
41:57
Speaker 1: repeated trauma, Brian brain science now shows that could change
42:01
Speaker 1: the way his brain functions. Was that ever treated by
42:05
Speaker 1: the adoptive family, Was that ever treated by anyone who
42:09
Speaker 1: was caretaking for him in his life? So they're a
42:12
Speaker 1: whole host of people responsible for seeking the help for him.
42:17
Speaker 1: Bottom line, he was messed up. He did not get
42:20
Speaker 1: whether services were provided or not, it was not sufficient.
42:24
Speaker 1: Well I know this. Uh. Cruiz finally declined to talk
42:30
Speaker 1: to Department Child and Family Services, an investigator who comes
42:34
Speaker 1: to his home to try to help him, and said
42:37
Speaker 1: he had quote talked about the situation enough. I want
42:41
Speaker 1: to speak also to the FBI, and I agree heads
42:47
Speaker 1: should roll a. I believe it was a parole officer,
42:54
Speaker 1: Is that right? Joseph Scott Morgan partnered parole in Mississippi
42:59
Speaker 1: contacted the FBI about Cruise posting I'm going to be
43:04
Speaker 1: a professional school shooter online. And also I'm looking right
43:09
Speaker 1: now at an Instagram post by Cruise allegedly showing I
43:14
Speaker 1: don't know even know how many weapons lying out on
43:19
Speaker 1: his bed on display, including you know, semi automatic weapons. Yeah.
43:26
Speaker 1: The uh, the the image they're based on what we're hearing,
43:29
Speaker 1: Nancy is only scratching the surface relative to the weapons
43:33
Speaker 1: that he had. Uh. The if you in that image,
43:38
Speaker 1: you can actually see the the a R platform weapon
43:42
Speaker 1: that he had that's based upon. For people at home
43:45
Speaker 1: that don't understand this is this is based upon the
43:48
Speaker 1: same platform that our troops use in Afghanistan. Um, it's
43:54
Speaker 1: them four and uh it was just mentioned by John
43:58
Speaker 1: a little while ago. There are a lot of a
44:00
Speaker 1: attachments that go onto this weapon. This weapon gets to
44:03
Speaker 1: can get to be very very expensive. And that's one
44:06
Speaker 1: of the curious things about this. He's working at Dollar
44:08
Speaker 1: Tree and he can afford these weapons. He's also got
44:11
Speaker 1: scoped high powered rifles there. I think I saw what
44:14
Speaker 1: appeared to be uh maybe like a three or eight
44:18
Speaker 1: dear rifle with a scope. There's a handgun there, a
44:20
Speaker 1: couple of shotguns. And then John had also mentioned that
44:24
Speaker 1: he got an a k uh platform weapon. And again
44:28
Speaker 1: for folks that don't know, that's the variant on what
44:32
Speaker 1: the Russian Army carries. And so he's got a lot
44:36
Speaker 1: of firepower here. And for me, from the perspective of, say,
44:41
Speaker 1: looking at this as an investigator and talking about the FBI,
44:46
Speaker 1: how in the world, how in the world can you
44:48
Speaker 1: take all of these reports and not make something out
44:52
Speaker 1: of this and move forward? Uh? This this kid is
44:56
Speaker 1: a threat. Uh. And people can accuse me of mon
45:00
Speaker 1: d morning quarterback. I don't care because at this point
45:03
Speaker 1: they're seventeen dead people. And not to mention people that
45:07
Speaker 1: have been scarred and maimed for the rest of your life.
45:10
Speaker 1: And let's don't forget about the victims families, um, and
45:14
Speaker 1: and for what it costs you a gallon of gasoline
45:18
Speaker 1: to go and and and use old fashioned shoe leather
45:20
Speaker 1: as an investigator and route these things out, I think
45:24
Speaker 1: their focus needs to be on cases like this, keeping
45:27
Speaker 1: as we say, the homeland secured. I'm just looking at
45:32
Speaker 1: these photos and I'm thinking of how I dropped my
45:35
Speaker 1: children at school every day, and what these parents must
45:40
Speaker 1: have gone through when they learned there's been a school shooting.
45:44
Speaker 1: They raced to the school, leaving home, leaving work, trying
45:47
Speaker 1: to get there in time, and they find out their
45:51
Speaker 1: child is the one found dead in a pool of
45:55
Speaker 1: blood at school. I mean, we can Monday Morning quarterback.
46:00
Speaker 1: All we want to, as you put it, Joe Scott
46:02
Speaker 1: Morgan Andrew Titail brings up with the school should have
46:07
Speaker 1: been doing Did they? I don't know. Dr Tiffany Sanders
46:11
Speaker 1: has an opinion well founded Joe Scott Morgan, Ashley Willcott,
46:16
Speaker 1: John Limley. But I know for one clear direction is
46:22
Speaker 1: the FBI. John Limley. I'm stunned at the FBI ignoring this,
46:31
Speaker 1: doing nothing, even saying they couldn't verify the posters I
46:35
Speaker 1: d I mean even I know how to identify an
46:39
Speaker 1: I P address, John Limley, That investigation has just begun,
46:43
Speaker 1: if you could even consider it underway. We mentioned from
46:47
Speaker 1: the outset that Florida Department of Children and Families investigation
46:52
Speaker 1: of Nicholas Cruz possibly being mistreated at home. It's interesting
46:57
Speaker 1: to note the ultimate findings in the report. The DCF
47:03
Speaker 1: noted that Cruise had admitted to cutting himself, felt depressed,
47:08
Speaker 1: and planned to purchase a gun, but investigators determined that
47:12
Speaker 1: Cruz's mother did not mistreat him. That was the ultimate
47:17
Speaker 1: goal of the investigation, was to determine if he was
47:20
Speaker 1: being mistreated. They did site earlier decisions by counselors that
47:26
Speaker 1: he was not a threat to himself or others. Ultimately,
47:31
Speaker 1: Cruz was not hospitalized and DCF closed the file. Take
47:36
Speaker 1: a listen to what the family that took Cruise in
47:40
Speaker 1: had to say on ABC's g m A. We knew
47:43
Speaker 1: he had one Instagram account that my son had, and
47:46
Speaker 1: I guess that would be the normal one. Um these
47:49
Speaker 1: other Instagram accounts that he had, we had no idea about.
47:52
Speaker 1: My son had no idea about. Um. As far as
47:55
Speaker 1: the animal killings, he never did anything like that at
47:57
Speaker 1: our house. We have animals, and he loved our animals.
48:00
Speaker 1: Our animals loved him. And you were aware that he
48:02
Speaker 1: had weapons when he moved into your home. Absolutely, and
48:05
Speaker 1: where were they kept? Um? We before he moved in.
48:08
Speaker 1: One of the stipulations is that he had to get
48:10
Speaker 1: a gun safe. And we got a gun safe on
48:13
Speaker 1: the way back from Lantana from moving his stuff to
48:15
Speaker 1: our house. And did he have he didn't have free
48:17
Speaker 1: access to this gun? No? No, um I thought I
48:19
Speaker 1: had the only key to the gun safe. And and
48:22
Speaker 1: had he ever asked you beforehand to to you the
48:24
Speaker 1: gun to take it out of the safe? He asked twice?
48:27
Speaker 1: Um once um I said yes, because he wanted to
48:29
Speaker 1: clean it. And I don't know which gun he wanted
48:32
Speaker 1: to clean, but he said, you want to clean the gun?
48:33
Speaker 1: I said, okay. And another time he asked, and I
48:35
Speaker 1: told him no, it wasn't a good time. And why
48:37
Speaker 1: did you tell him no? There? I don't know what
48:40
Speaker 1: the situation was in the house. It was just it
48:41
Speaker 1: wasn't a good time. I don't know we were getting
48:43
Speaker 1: ready to leave, or getting ready to sit down for
48:45
Speaker 1: dinner or something, but it wasn't a good time. And
48:47
Speaker 1: and judging from any path interaction with him, and seemed
48:50
Speaker 1: that you had no problem with him having a weapon, No,
48:53
Speaker 1: not at all. He followed the rules. He followed the rules,
48:56
Speaker 1: followed the rules. They weren't allowed to be out if
48:58
Speaker 1: we weren't home or one of us wasn't home. Um,
49:02
Speaker 1: and he knew that, and to our knowledge, he never
49:04
Speaker 1: had them out as far as the animals goes, if
49:07
Speaker 1: he I am very much an animal person. Anybody who
49:09
Speaker 1: knows me knows that there's no way I'd let anybody
49:11
Speaker 1: in my house if I thought they was torturing animals
49:14
Speaker 1: at all. And if we'd known anything about the Instagram
49:17
Speaker 1: accounts or I don't, I don't even know how to
49:19
Speaker 1: use Instagram a little old school. But if we had
49:22
Speaker 1: known anything about that, he wouldn't even been in our home.
49:24
Speaker 1: That wouldn't even been an option. And do you have
49:26
Speaker 1: any do you have a message for the family that
49:28
Speaker 1: there who've lost children, an or of lot of loved
49:31
Speaker 1: one didness trappy? Nothing I can say, well, we'll heal them. Um,
49:36
Speaker 1: we hurt for them deeply, very much. So we're devastated
49:43
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine um the pain they must be feeling.
49:48
Speaker 1: And like he said, nothing that we can say is
49:51
Speaker 1: going to be any kind of help. But I'm very sorry.
49:58
Speaker 1: You know, they had this experience and never should have happened.
50:03
Speaker 1: And again, if we had known any of the things
50:06
Speaker 1: that we're hearing, we're learning a lot about all of us,
50:10
Speaker 1: just the same as everybody else, you know, and we
50:12
Speaker 1: feel a trade as well and just shocked. You know.
50:18
Speaker 1: I may sound like I'm disagreeing with various guests today.
50:23
Speaker 1: I'm looking for answers. They may be right, they may
50:26
Speaker 1: be wrong, because we're sifting through the rubble of a
50:31
Speaker 1: horrific crime, a crime that will reverberate in that community
50:38
Speaker 1: and in those families and at those cemeteries from now on.
50:45
Speaker 1: You know, so often when I investigate a report on crimes,
50:50
Speaker 1: I don't let myself think about the actuality of the crime.
50:56
Speaker 1: I was forced to do it as a prosecutor. And
50:59
Speaker 1: it's hanful to think of a child gunned down dead
51:05
Speaker 1: at school when you are forced to think about them
51:10
Speaker 1: lying in the floor as their life force drains out
51:14
Speaker 1: of them, alone, with people running away, jumping over them,
51:21
Speaker 1: away from their parents, dying alone on the floor. That
51:30
Speaker 1: is what has happened to these children. The only thing
51:35
Speaker 1: we can do now is search for the truth, whatever
51:39
Speaker 1: it may be, and seek change. Nancy Grace Crime Story,
51:47
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,